498 - The Hidden Skill You Need to Develop with Cheyenne Barton

Summary

Podcast Summary: Creative Pep Talk - Episode 498: The Hidden Skill You Need to Develop with Cheyenne Barton

Release Date: March 26, 2025
Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guest: Cheyenne Barton
Title: The Hidden Skill You Need to Develop with Cheyenne Barton

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Introduction

In Episode 498 of Creative Pep Talk, host and New York Times Bestselling Author and Illustrator Andy J. Pizza welcomes back fellow creative Cheyenne Barton, a multifaceted artist known for her work as an artist, actor, illustrator, and YouTuber. This episode delves deep into Cheyenne's recent struggles with creative block, her journey through an art crisis, and the profound insights she gained about balancing creativity with the pressures of modern digital platforms.

Cheyenne’s Art Crisis and Creative Struggles

Cheyenne begins by opening up about her recent "art crisis," a period where she felt disconnected from her creative flow. She shares:

“For the latter half of last year, I was in this place where I felt like nothing I was doing was working. My views on YouTube were falling, my number of patrons was falling, and a lot of stuff was kind of falling through the cracks.”
— Cheyenne Barton [05:19]

Andy echoes similar sentiments, reflecting on the broader challenges creatives face in a rapidly changing digital landscape:

“The gamification of creativity... there's such a narrow window of emotion that benefits the platforms. Most art that deeply resonates wouldn't hook the algorithm.”
— Andy J. Pizza [08:00]

Impact of Digital Platforms on Creativity

The conversation shifts to the pervasive influence of algorithms on creative expression. Both Andy and Cheyenne discuss how the push to "game the algorithm" can stifle authentic creativity:

“Every time I make anything, I am thinking about how I can monetize it. And that ruins my relationship with my desire and ability to make stuff in the first place.”
— Cheyenne Barton [11:29]

Andy reinforces this by highlighting the shift from traditional artistry to the "creator" era, where success is often measured by metrics rather than artistic merit:

“Most of the creative work that truly moves people wouldn’t perform well on platforms like YouTube, yet creators are pressured to produce what does.”
— Andy J. Pizza [08:00]

Finding Whimsy and Storytelling in Art

A pivotal moment in the episode is when Cheyenne realizes that her perfectionism has been hindering her creative process. She shares her breakthrough:

“It's the sense of, like, well, the fun comes from being good. Right. And if I'm not good, then it's not going to be fun.”
— Cheyenne Barton [18:11]

This leads to a deeper exploration of incorporating whimsy and storytelling into her work, areas she had previously overlooked. She reflects on her childhood fascination with fairies and how that magical thinking influences her current artistic desires:

“The word that I always come back to is whimsy and magic... my favorite pieces capture the essence of a larger world at play.”
— Cheyenne Barton [26:37]

Andy connects this to broader creative practices, emphasizing the importance of storytelling beyond technical skills:

“Illustration is also writing. It's also ideating. It's also story structure... There's so many different layers.”
— Andy J. Pizza [24:00]

Overcoming Perfectionism and Embracing Play

Cheyenne discusses her ongoing battle with perfectionism and the importance of allowing herself to create without stringent outcomes:

“I just need to make stuff. And that's enough, and that's okay. And trying to constantly remind myself... to just try and have fun for the sake of it.”
— Cheyenne Barton [22:07]

Andy shares his own struggles with balancing self-improvement and embracing strengths, underscoring the universal nature of these challenges among creatives.

Discovery of Concept Art and New Horizons

A transformative moment arrives when Cheyenne discovers concept art, which she had never previously considered as part of her repertoire. Inspired by artists like Ghost Shrimp and Nat Anderson, she realizes the potential for integrating storytelling and world-building into her illustrations:

“I have never considered that as an option, I guess, because I've been very comfy in this thing that I've been doing for the last 7ish years... it's surreal.”
— Cheyenne Barton [36:14]

Andy encourages this expansion of creative horizons, highlighting the value of storytelling in enhancing illustrative work.

Call to Adventure: Left Turn

As promised, Andy concludes the episode with a Creative Call to Adventure, titled Left Turn. He challenges listeners to:

• Identify Overlooked Skills: Reflect on the less obvious skills in your creative medium that could enhance your work. For illustrators, this might be storytelling; for musicians, it could be lyric writing or conceptual composition.

• Integrate Storytelling: Incorporate elements like metaphor, symbolism, and narrative into your creations to add depth and uniqueness.

• Embrace Play and Whimsy: Reconnect with the playful aspects of creativity that bring joy without the pressure of monetization or perfection.

Andy offers an actionable framework for creatives to step beyond their comfort zones and develop complementary skills that enrich their primary artistry.

“Look past the surface and the obvious road and ask yourself what different, unexpected, complementary skill could be your next left turn.”
— Andy J. Pizza [44:00]

Conclusion

Episode 498 serves as a profound exploration of the internal and external challenges faced by modern creatives. Through Cheyenne Barton's candid revelations and Andy J. Pizza's insightful guidance, listeners are encouraged to navigate their creative journeys with authenticity and resilience. The episode not only addresses common struggles but also provides a strategic pathway for personal and artistic growth through the Left Turn exercise.

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Notable Quotes

• Cheyenne Barton [05:19]:

  “For the latter half of last year, I was in this place where I felt like nothing I was doing was working.”

• Andy J. Pizza [08:00]:

  “Most of the creative work that truly moves people wouldn’t perform well on platforms like YouTube, yet creators are pressured to produce what does.”

• Cheyenne Barton [18:11]:

  “It's the sense of, like, well, the fun comes from being good. Right. And if I'm not good, then it's not going to be fun.”

• Cheyenne Barton [26:37]:

  “The word that I always come back to is whimsy and magic... my favorite pieces capture the essence of a larger world at play.”

• Andy J. Pizza [44:00]:

  “Look past the surface and the obvious road and ask yourself what different, unexpected, complementary skill could be your next left turn.”

Key Takeaways

1. Balancing Creativity and Monetization: The tension between creating for passion and creating for profit can lead to creative block and dissatisfaction.

2. Embracing Whimsy and Storytelling: Integrating elements like magic, whimsy, and narrative can revitalize artistic expression and reconnect creators with their original joy.

3. Overcoming Perfectionism: Letting go of the need to produce flawless work allows for more authentic and enjoyable creative processes.

4. Expanding Creative Skills: Exploring complementary skills outside the primary creative discipline can lead to innovative and fulfilling artistic growth.

5. Navigating Digital Platforms: Understanding the limitations and pressures of algorithm-driven platforms is crucial for maintaining creative integrity.

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Whether you're struggling with creative block or seeking ways to deepen your artistic practice, Episode 498 of Creative Pep Talk offers invaluable insights and practical advice to help you navigate and enhance your creative journey.

Transcript

[Cheyenne Barton]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost. But don't worry, you'll lift off.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. Why is it so easy to get lost on the creative journey? I have a theory and I think it's because in order for it to be a creative journey, it has to be creative. It has to take unique and unexpected turns. And if it doesn't, it's not a creative path, it's a typical path. And that means you're not always going to get it right. That means that you can't just follow what the artists and illustrators and designers and writers did before you. You, you can't do the obvious choice. You have to surprise yourself. Even. We're lucky to have people like artist, actor, illustrator and YouTuber Cheyenne Barton, who admits it when she feels lost. I asked Cheyenne to come onto the show for the second time because she's been sharing on her own channels that she's been going through a bit of an art crisis recently. And I thought it might be good to step into that moment in real time and try to work out some things live in the episode and just chat through what that feels like and what where the breadcrumbs seem to be. And it was a really great chat. What I didn't expect was that she would have an aha moment in real time in the episode. So stay tuned for that. That was really cool. And at the end, I'm going to come back for our creative call to adventure, our cta, to put some of these ideas into practice with an exercise called Left Turn. I hope that it. I hope this episode helps you if you're feeling lost, both just to feel like you're not alone in that, but also maybe some have some ideas of what you could do to figure out some next steps and maybe even have an. A little bit of an aha moment like Cheyenne did. Without further ado, here is Cheyenne Barton. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm a long time user. One of the things I love about Squarespace is I will use. It's so easy to use that I will use it to create pitches. If I'm pitching a book or I'm pitching something to a client, I will use a Squarespace page in my website and I'll build the whole thing there. Then you don't have these clunky like document PDFs clogging up people's inboxes and it looks super slick. If you want to see one of those that I use all the time. I did one for my series right side out. Andyjpizza.com RSO and you can see how I create a little pitch summary of that project. Go to squarespace.com pep talk. Get building for free and trying it out and testing it. And then when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk. All one word for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks. Squarespace. Where you at this second? Like, you feeling creative? You feeling like you're rolling? Are you at. What are you feeling?

[Cheyenne Barton]

I'm feeling like I. It's. I'm like. It's so funny because I'm thinking about what we talked about last time, and I'm like. I'm feeling similarly, like, oh, there's so much I want to do, especially because December was, like, a very weird month for me, and I feel like I've gained some clarity. And so now I'm just kind of excited to try out a bunch of different things. And so for today, I'm just like, I know I'm getting into the studio, and then I'm also like, what am I going to do when I get there? So it's. It's an exciting feeling of. It's a feeling where, like, I'm excited to make stuff, which is nice.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah. And you're feeling that today. You're feeling like you got the energy to go. That's good. That's awesome.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah. It doesn't come. You know, it's not a guarantee every morning. So whatever it comes through, I'm like, okay, thank you.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. Well, that's good. I saw. I reached out because I. For a couple reasons. One, we started doing more stuff on YouTube with the show, and I thought I should reach out to the people I know that do YouTube and have experience and learn some stuff. Stuff from them. But then also, I was checking out some of your recent videos for that reason, and you did a recent one about kind of having an art crisis. And I thought, this is really juicy stuff. We should come. We should talk about it. So what happened?

[Cheyenne Barton]

I. I have been like, basically for the latter half of last year, I was in this place where I felt like nothing I was doing was working. I felt like my. My views on YouTube were falling. I felt like my number of patrons was falling. I felt like a lot of stuff was kind of falling through the cracks. And I was like, what am I missing? What's going. I was like, what's wrong? And I was watching all of these videos on, like, how to game the algorithm and, like, how to like, the correct way to start your YouTube videos, to like, increase watch time and retention and all this stuff.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

And I was so scattered and lost. And then I was kind of at my studio one afternoon and I had been thinking a lot about, like, my artwork from, I think it was 2023. I think some of my favorite pieces I've made, like, more recently are from 2023. And I was looking through my sketchbooks from that time and I had this moment of seeing, like, just an overabundance of freedom and fun and joy that I feel was so that I felt like I had completely lost touch with in recent months or years or whatever. And so looking back through my old work, it was very much a feeling of like, what happened? Like, what, what did I lose? What? Like, yeah, I guess kind of where did I go wrong? Which is maybe a little too harsh, but it was, it was definitely a feeling of like, I remember being this person and I don't know where she is now.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, a lot of things come up there that are really interesting to me. I, I, we, I feel like there's a big transition on the Internet over the past few years away from artists and creative people to the era of the quote unquote creator. I don't have all negative views on the creator. You know, that idea. There's, there's plenty of, there's a lot that I really appreciate and think is truly creative and, and fascinating about creators, how, you know, whatever that means. But I did notice that, like, this idea of gaming the algorithm or retention and, and I don't think it's all bad, but I realized that there was something about, I got, I paused because I was like, I really was under the impression that I liked the space between the art and the audience. Like, that I liked the applied psychology of creativity of like, how do you elicit a feeling and how do you impact and connect? Always loved all that. And then I started feeling such a resistance to the gamification of creativity. And I thought I should kind of like this, in theory. I like this kind of thing. And then as you said that, I realized, oh, it's like, I think it's because the window of the emotional response that gets what you need in order to hook people in a particular way that benefits the platforms. It's just a such a small, it's such a narrow window of emotion. It's only a certain, I've thought a lot about this. Like, there's only certain types of creative work that can go viral. If you think about your Favorite song or your favorite movie or the, just the art that really, really hits you. Most of that, for me is stuff that would never go viral, would never, you know, hook the algorithm or, or get the type of emotional response that would hook people in such a way where they would, you know, stay on YouTube or. So I, I, I'm glad you brought that up because it's in, we're in an interesting time with this, and we've all had to figure out what our relationship's going to be to that as.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Artists, you know, it's, it is very. I think that's, Yeah, I think that's the thing where it's like, I'll see reels or shorts or TikToks or whatever of, like, processes. Usually it's like a draw this thing with me or make this thing with me, and it just has hundreds of thousands of likes or even tens of thousands of likes. And I'm like, this is really cool. And I'm excited for this person. This does not ignite anything within me. And I was like, good for them.

[Andy J. Pizza]

But, yeah, I feel that way.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah. And it's, it's frustrating because then I see stuff that, like, sets my brain on fire and it feels like I go to check their page and they have, like, 3,000 followers, and I'm like, what do you mean? What do you mean?

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. That's kind of why I started the year with some episodes about artists returning to the underground kind of attitude, because I think we got, we got into this zone in the early 2000s where all this independent culture started blowing up into the mainstream, and then that started to feel normal where, like, oh, creativity matters to people. And Instagram being, like, the number one platform where the, the number one creators for that were visual artists and photographers, put us in this weird place in culture that I think confused what it meant or why we would be doing this. And now I see a lot of the people that I resonate with in the way that I think about art and what my taste is, feeling at odds with where the Internet and mainstream culture is going in terms of creativity and not really knowing what to do with that because it wasn't that way four or five years ago.

[Cheyenne Barton]

It's, it is such a, it is such a strange space to occupy. I tried to explain this to my mom when she came to visit me in October, because I was talking to her where I was, like, I was talking to her about my worries with, like, my numbers falling and my analytics and all of this Stuff. And she was trying to offer solutions. And she's like, well, you know what people like, so why don't you do that kind of stuff and why don't you try out these kinds of videos? And I kind of had to, like, grab her by the shoulders and I was like. I was like, mom, every time I make anything, I am thinking about how I can monetize it, Right. And that ruins my relationship with my desire and ability to make stuff in the first place. And so she was kind of like, oh, oh. And I was like, yeah, it's. It's hard because even if I'm doing stuff for myself, in the back of my head, there's a voice where it's like, you could be making money off of this if you make content about it. And I'm like, but do I have to? And a lot of the times it feels like I do, which is also. Which is also like, exhausting in its own way. And I think that was part of the reason why I felt like just kind of for the latter half of last year, I was in this such of like, I was in a very hardcore, my art is content brain, and it did me no favors.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, Yeah, I totally get that. And you have. I've heard you talk about your mom quite a bit. You guys seem pretty close. She. She's an interior designer. Is that right?

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yes, yes, she is.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And what is. So is she like a big support role to you?

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah, she's a big support role. Both. I'm very blessed that both of my parents have been extremely supportive in my career. And my mom, like, when me and my sister were little, would always make sure that when we would come home from school, she had like a whole little art table set up and was. Wanted us to kind of get into whatever craft we were into that day or whatever kind of creative exercise we wanted to get into.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's so cool.

[Cheyenne Barton]

It's. Yeah, it's really cool. I think that my, like, my family has always been very much have. Have always wanted to foster, like, me and my sister's creativity and like, whatever form it takes. I. What. I like what I was. What. I told them that I wanted to go to university to get like a BFA in acting. They were like, are you sure? Because they're like, you. You could do something with like, more of a guarantee with like, something that'll.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Something that's a job.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah. Or like, you know, they're just like something that could maybe, you know, secure you some income more reliably. And I was like, but I want to act. And they're like, okay, so. And you know, I didn't, I didn't expect this career for myself in any kind of way, but they've, they've been just an incredible support network. And my mom, especially, just as in, like, as a self employed, creative person, has been like a huge source of advice and support and I'm really grateful to her.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, I, I also, this is completely off topic, but you were in one of your videos, you're talking about how your mom used to make you platters. We did that same thing for our oldest kid, who has a lot of like, sensory issues and stuff, but we called them snack trays. So we couldn't. If we couldn't get like a. The right lunch for her, we'd be like, how about a snack tray? And she's like, all right, I'm into that. And we'll just give them like five things.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah. My mom.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Would you call it though? What?

[Cheyenne Barton]

Oh, but my new one is kitchen mouse meals.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Because my, my friend Allegra offered that to me and I was like, that's brilliant.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, you gotta do that.

[Cheyenne Barton]

And yeah, my mom was. My mom's like, sometimes it was literally the only way I could get you to eat. And I was like. I was like, yeah, because it's reliable. And I was, I am a picky eater. And I was a picky eater growing up. And so it was just like, if I can just put all of her favorite snacks on one tiny little tray. And I was also always up late. I was up too late doing homework and procrastinating on homework. So then she knew that it would sustain me through the night.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's great. That's a great. We mention it just because it's a great parenting hack. If you have a fussy eater, just get a platter or a snack tray or a. What is it? What is it?

[Cheyenne Barton]

Kitchen mouse.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Mouse meal. It really does the trick. So, okay, so you were going through this. You've been going through this funk. And I think everyone can relate. The flux of things have, has just been so destabilizing for pretty much every creative person I know. So I don't think you're alone whatsoever. I think 2023 and 2024, there were a lot of so many things shifted and I really had to do a bunch of different. I've kind of shown up in a totally different way, whether it seems like it on the outside or not, just by trying to navigate the ridiculous amount of change to everything. So I get It.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah. Every peer that I've talked to, like, other creators on YouTube and stuff, they're just like. Or other artists on YouTube, they're just like, bro, I don't. I don't know, man. Like, it sucks, and it's exhausting, and I keep trying to figure out, like, what works and what doesn't, and there's. Because, like, studio art. YouTube is such a specific niche. It's, like, very tricky to know what's gonna hit. Yeah. Because sometimes videos that I don't, Videos that I've rushed and I've barely thought about do so well, and then videos that I spend 20 hours editing do so badly, and I'm like, well, all right, it's fine. But, yeah, so it's definitely. It is a common experience, which is it? You know, we're not alone. But I. It's also. I sure wish we didn't all have to deal with this.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. But it seems like in the video that you did was. It's, like, titled something about an art crisis. It seems like even if you didn't figure out what the solution was, you got more familiar with, like, what the real problem was, because you went into that season thinking, I know it'll fix it. I'll totally reinvent my business this way. And then what happened that kind of derailed that?

[Cheyenne Barton]

I realized that my perfectionism has been holding me back from making the work that I want to make. Like, the work that I see in my head and the stuff that I see from other artists that I just get, like, so excited about and I feel prevented from making. I think it was in the recording of that video that I had the epiphany of. I was like, oh, my. It's the sense of, like, well, the fun comes from being good. Right. And if I'm not good, then it's not going to be fun. And that has destroyed me in not only, like, just across many facets of my life, but, like, especially in my creativity, because it has kept me locked into this kind of one specific little, I guess, like, roundabout or cul de sac that I just keep circling in, and I'm. I'm. I'm desperate to find a way out now. And knowing, I think, like, realizing that I was being trapped by, you know, a prison of my own making was enlightening and is also made me more hopeful or excited that I can push through this, because I know that all the stuff that I want to do lies on the other side. And it's like, I'm just, like. It's so close. And if I can just get over myself, I can, I can seize it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, that's a really, that's a huge insight actually. Like it hit me when I was watching the video, but also even now I'm like seeing new layers of this. Like a theme that's, that's been constant over the past few years on the show is this thing of Oliver Berkman who wrote the book 4000 Hours. He talks about it through the lens of telic and atelic. Telic being goal oriented, atelic being like journey oriented.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Ooh.

[Andy J. Pizza]

And so it's something I've thought a lot about and this idea of, you know, being good at what you do, being the, the, the fuel that is very like goal oriented. It's like the reason I'm doing this is because at the end I've done something worth. Yeah. And it's interesting because so this is part of like the not to like we can chat economics. That's fine. Like, I just don't, I just don't feel capable of like speaking to it in a super intelligent way. But I do think like the fact that we have to organize so much of our energy around making money means that so much of our decision making, our huge decisions are really influenced by. I'm going to spend my time doing something valuable, meaning doing something that I'm particularly good at because the more uniquely good at it I am, the more valuable it is rather than. And that being the telic attitude, the goal oriented attitude versus some compromise in the middle between the telic and the atelic of the goal oriented, of the journey oriented of like I'm going this way because I'm good at it and maybe it's valuable and I just really love the process and I really like to spend time doing that. And that's a, that's like a tricky, that's a tricky equation.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah, it's very hard. I. This is a revelation that I've had many times throughout my career. But it's. I am, I am not a fan of the process a lot of the time because I just want the end part because again, it's working through the discomfort of it not being quite right or it not looking good or feeling like, well, if I'm going to spend an afternoon drawing, to what end? Because I don't have something that I can sell at the end of this, which is very dangerous. And as a result, like I forget that a huge part of my job is to just draw and make with no kind of concrete end in sight. And it's so difficult for my little capitalism poisoned brain to wrap around. So I'm just like, it, I'm like, you. It's a thing of like, you have to. It's like you, I, you just got to make stuff. You just got to make stuff. And that's, that's enough, and that's okay. And trying to constantly remind myself, like, this afternoon I was thinking about how I was planning. Or last night I was thinking about how I was going to be planning out my day after our chat, and I was like, okay, well, I'll go to the studio and I'll spend a few hours drawing. And I'm like, but what are you drawing for? And I'm like, well, I have a lot of different things that I want to work on, but I think I just need to draw. And I was like, but why? What for? And I'm like, I just, I just. I just need to make stuff. Okay, So I think that I'm kind of constantly just fighting the little demons in my brain to be like, hey, I'm going to just try and have fun for the sake of it. Okay? Leave me alone.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It's tough. It's tough. I, you know, drawing what for mixed with this thing of like, what is play? Like, what feels like play in terms of just like, enjoying it for the sake of it. One thing that I have been thinking about is what. What did play look like when I was a kid? And I know that's like a. I feel like I sh. I've probably thought of that a million times. I've heard it a billion times, but I think I always was still putting it on through the lens of, like, what were the things that I was doing as a kid that were valuable, that were play versus. No, what was play? What was just like, I was playing. And. And then I started trying to inject that into the work where. Because I realized, like, oh, for me, I spent a tremendous amount of time, like, coming up with the character that I was going to pretend to be. Like, I did that a lot. Like, that was something I did a lot. I always, I came up with characters in a whole bunch of different ways, which obviously is what I do now in a lot of ways, but I forgot that. And so, you know, that mixed with this other piece I want to ask you about, because I know you've been diving into anatomy and that kind of thing, but I was thinking, like, when you say, oh, I'm gonna go draw. I think one thing that happens to artists, whether it's, you know, A musician or illustrator or whatever. We have a very narrow idea of what our practice is. So if you're an illustrator, you think, I'm drawing, But actually drawing as an illustrator is also writing. It's also ideating. It's also story structure and all the. There's so many different layers. If you're a musician, writing music, practicing or. Or playing wouldn't just mean playing your instrument and doing your scales. It would mean, you know, poetry and all and all these other things. So what. What do you think are, you know, speaking back to also that thing you were saying about the art from other artists that really light you on fire? What are the things beyond just the rigor of practicing, drawing that feed into the kind of illustration that you want to do and play in?

[Cheyenne Barton]

The word that I always come back to is whimsy.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yes, I just.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I see that. Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I feel like. I feel like my favorite pieces, I. I made a postcard for my Patreon in September of 2023, and it is, to this day, one of my favorite things I've ever made. I just really knocked it out of the park where I was like, oh, this is it. I was like, oh, I get it now. And I feel like I've touched on pieces of that since, but I've never been able to, like, recapture that feeling. But, yeah, the word I always come back to is whimsy and magic. When I was a kid, I was really into fairies. All of my imaginary friends were fairies, and they would come visit me, and then I would have to escort them back to the portal to their homeland that was underneath my parents bed, and that was. That was how I played pretend. And I would write lots of stories about fairies. I had a lot of little picture books where I could write letters to them. And I feel like I. I feel like that's kind of ultimately at the core of the stuff I want to do is stuff that just feels very magical and whimsical and a little bit removed from this world or potentially that, like, exists within a pocket of this world.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

And so I. Yeah, like, the work that I'm drawn to has always, like, really fun shapes, like, really fun kind of funky compositions. So much. I'm very drawn to work that has, like, a lot of, like, foliage and greenery and landscapes, and I don't draw a lot of those because, again, it's the fear of them not being good. And I just. I need. I. I crave. I crave the magic that makes sense.

[Andy J. Pizza]

What. What was that piece like? Like, what what was in it?

[Cheyenne Barton]

It's of a little guy with a mushroom.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I've seen that. Yeah. Great. What is it? I love it. What is it? What do you think it is about that? That's just like, doing it?

[Cheyenne Barton]

I think so. I was at the time. I think I was, like, three weeks into the Artist's Way challenge, which I abandoned two weeks later because I don't think it's built for ADHD brains.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's a challenge.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I was like, I don't. I was like, this is valuable, but I don't think I could do this. It's hard. But I had learned. I had gone to a studio or Leica exhibit that was at the Seattle Museum of Pop Culture, and I had seen concept art for their film. Oh, what's it called? It was their film about the yeti.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I'm trying to think of what it's called. I don't know why it just disappeared from my brain.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I know. I'm trying.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Oh, everyone listening.

[Cheyenne Barton]

It's this missing link. Missing link. But they had one of their pieces of concept art. I wish I could remember the artist's name off the top of my head. I cannot. But it was a piece of his concept art blown up huge on the wall. And I remember coming around the corner and being like. I started crying because I was like, oh, my God. I was like, oh, that's it. Oh, that's it. And it was, like, really clean lines, really magical, kind of funky proportions. Like, really, like. I think the biggest thing I was like, their line work is simultaneously so clear and clean, but also so free. How do you do it? And so I was like, okay, I know I love doing line art, and I know that I'm, like, afraid of coloring and, like, rendering. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, when I do this one or when I do this piece, I was like, I'm literally just gonna hold my apple pencil further up on the body so I don't have as much control, which helped a lot with giving me this, like, fun, loose sketchiness. And then I just treated it like a coloring book and just colored inside the line so I didn't have to think so hard about it. And it was. I had fun the whole time.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's key.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Which was wild, because usually coloring is my least favorite part, because there's so many decisions you have to make. And I was just like, oh, I just. If I just treat it like a coloring book, then I don't have to worry so hard about it, and I can just focus on the fun of it all. And I look back at, like, kind of how some of my lines aren't straight and, like, some of them get kind of weird and strange. And normally I would go back and, like, redraw them a bunch of times, but I purposely left them be. And I want that again.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah. I can fall into this trap of focusing all of my energy on what I'm not good at or don't like about the process in a way that's like, I need to learn. I need to get better. And that's fine. Like, there are. There's definitely room for that. And. And it's. There's elements of that that are really important or necessary, whatever. That's true. But I do think sometimes I do it to my detriment. Instead of building on my strengths, I'm, like, obsessively focusing on developing my weaknesses. That even if I'm. Even if I spend the rest of my life on him, I'm still going to be worse than other people at it. You know what I mean? Rather than, like, diving into, like, oh, I'm good at this, and I like doing this, and I'm going to just, like, max out on that strength. Yeah, that. You know, I think that I can totally relate to that. And then also, it kind of gets at something else that I'm thinking about, because as I'm watching these videos, I'm thinking about how you're trying to get back in the joy of it. Then you're also trying to, like, challenge yourself with anatomy and all that kind of thing. I feel like illustration is more than drawing, I think. And you. I know you have this, like, strong relationship with storytelling between D and D and video games, and it sounds like concept art as a way of writing with pictures sounds very like a natural connection.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I. I have never considered that. Oh, my God. I've never considered that.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Really?

[Cheyenne Barton]

Never. I've. Oh, my God. Sorry. Holy. Oh, my God. I've never considered that. I might want to. Okay. That's wild. Jesus. Yeah, I guess that's what it is. I guess that's what it is. Oh, my God. Okay. Wow. I don't know if. I don't know if I'm allowed to curse, but you can.

[Andy J. Pizza]

You can curse.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Holy shit.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Because that's kind of crazy to me.

[Andy J. Pizza]

That's what looks like from the outside. I think probably other people already think that.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I have. I have never. Yeah, I've never considered that as an option, I guess. But that makes a lot of sense because I am extremely. Yeah, I'm extremely Drawn to, like. One of the reasons I love playing DND is just because I can see all of the scenes before me and they're always. I love, like, when there's, like, really cinematic, dramatic moments that happen in game. And I like. I think about my favorite video games. Concept art is always my favorite thing to look at from any piece of media that I love. For Christmas, my parents got me. Or no, for my. For my 30th birthday, my parents got me the Miyazaki art book. And it just makes me cry when I look at it. But I guess that's the thing I get. Wow. Wow. I've never considered. This is very. This is surreal. I never considered that as an option, I guess, because, like. I guess it's also like, I've just kind of been doing this. I've been very comfy in, like, this thing that I've been doing for the last 7ish years now. And because I kind of stumbled into art as a career, I guess that once I kind of found this niche that, like, worked really well, I just kind of kept following it. And I think that it brought me a lot of joy for a long time. And I think that the restlessness comes from the fact that maybe there's. There's. There's something. Not necessarily more, but there is, like, something else that I want. I cannot believe I never thought about doing concept art. That's insane. That's crazy.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I think, you know, it makes total sense. I get in the same zone where when I'm not feeling great or I'm not, like, into it, and I'm getting, like, really frustrated. I'm. I get really tempted to look back years ago at seasons of what I was doing and thinking like, oh, man, I was so on fire then. I need to go back and do that thing. Whereas recently I've been thinking more of. No, the reason you were on fire then is because you were leaning into what that season was. And so instead of doing that, what that season was, lean into what this season is, and that's where you'll find that. Like fire.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah. Damn. No, I think that's. Yeah, I think that's exactly. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I. I was thinking about, like, in terms of kind of going back to this sense of listlessness and feeling lost. A video that I posted two weeks ago where it was the video with the snack platter bit where I was just like. I felt like it was boring, and I felt like I was like. Well, I was like, this is kind of just A bunch of mundane stuff. And I. The video did so much better than so many of my recent videos have. And everyone. A lot of the comments were like, your videos aren't boring. These are exactly the kinds. Kinds of videos I like to see from you. And it really felt like I was like, oh, I'm just returning to form kind of. I was like, oh, this is. I kind of lost sight of the forest for the trees. Because I was like, oh, I can just. I don't have to grind myself and my spirit into dust over things that I. That I really don't. I really don't need to, like, engineer things or over complicate things, I guess. And so I think I probably similarly need to bring that spirit to my illustrative work and not overcomplicate things. But I'm so good at overcomplicating.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Me too.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I'm the best at that. I'm so good at it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

I guarantee I can give you a run for your money on complicating things. But I, you know, it makes me think of too, like, so, yeah, your videos are. Those kinds of videos that you do are not boring. They're great for, like, an atmosphere they feel. Speaking of Miyazaki, kind of like that MA thing that he talks about of, like, things in between. And it creates a vibe. Especially when I'm in my studio, if I put that on, it's creating a particular atmosphere that I'm like, oh, this is like such a good vibe to get into. And I think that it also makes me think of as these things transition. Something I try to keep in mind. It's a little bit businessy, but is it's okay for something that used to be what the economist would call a star, which is in a. In a growth where you have a big share in the market and it's in growth for that to. That's gonna, at some point go into being what is a cash cow. Meaning, like, that's just you doing your thing, and it's not this growth thing. It's just you're doing. That's your job now. And then you're also planting seeds for what could be a star next time or in the future. And so, you know, you're just doing your thing. I feel like that's. That's what I'm trying to lean into. Just like, okay, these are the things that I'm doing that it's just my thing. And then my curiosity is leading me to some other things that I can do at the same time. But I, you know, I was going to tell you my work's really different than Ghost Shrimp, but do you know him?

[Cheyenne Barton]

Ghost Shrimp sounds so familiar.

[Andy J. Pizza]

He did. He was like one of the background designers on Adventure Time. He did like the original fort and like the tree for. And a bunch of stuff like that. But he does a ton of concept art. Well, I think he. Even though my work's really different to his, if I get to do anything, concept art, if I'm doing stuff in entertainment, whatever, I'm really inspired by him because he does concept art his way. He focuses on the things that he likes to like, invent and fantasize about. And it doesn't look like other people's concept art, but you can feel him writing and ideating on the page. And I just think, you know, the net, the, the, the danger of going into a new area like concept art is then you're like, no, I got to be a totally different person. Whereas I feel like all the stuff you do is already in that vein. Like you. And you could play it up. But he's a, He's a inspiring dude in that world to me.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Oh, yeah. I mean, his work is rad.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, very.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Like, it's sick as hell.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, it is.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Oh, I, I'm also. I'm like looking at all of the different pieces that I have above my desk. And an artist that I've been particularly inspired by lately is Nat Anderson, who's just blow. Great, incredible. Like, I think that again, it's the whimsy. It's like the natural world. It's the magic, it's the clean lines. I think seeing that she is able to achieve this like very. She's still able to achieve like a very like soft, kind of like hand drawn storybook quality to her stuff while maintaining such like clean, sharp shapes is like huge for me. And I have been, yeah, I've been like extremely drawn to that. And I think that similarly, I think that her work, every piece I think captures like the essence of a larger world at play, which is why it's so enchanting.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, there's so much that's. That is like, that's such a great example of that writing with pictures idea of like there is so much ideating in this and into the in and mood setting and just all of the elements of story are there in these world building pieces. I completely agree. And it kind of reminds me of too. I can't. I don't know who the artists are. I feel like I, I'm. I kind of lost the Names of these, but over time. But the. The people that did concept art for Song of the Sea and Wolf Walkers, and I can't remember what that studio is called, but the. All of the concept art for that is in.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I only just found out about. I only just found out about Wolf Walker. I saw. I've been seeing clips of it on reels, and I was like, what is this?

[Andy J. Pizza]

So I need to.

[Cheyenne Barton]

I need to see it.

[Andy J. Pizza]

They're incredible. Song of Sea is just so freaking good. But. But the concept art from that, again, it's kind of. It's got a graphic edge. It defies a lot of the, you know, typical stuff. The. The tropes and concept art. I just think. I think you would do some great stuff in that zone.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Cool.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Cool.

[Cheyenne Barton]

That's cool. That was rad. What? I can't believe I. I was like. I'm just kind of. I'm like, like sitting here on a Tuesday morning and I'm like, wow. I think my entire, like, perception of my world has shifted. Cool.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Well, hey, you know, I hope that vibe keeps. Keeps going, but I'm excited to see where. Where you go with it.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Yeah, I'm excited to see where I go with it too. Damn. Cool.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Cool. Well, I'll let you go get. Get on get. You can get to the studio and get moving, but I'm really glad we got to catch up. And it's been fun dipping back into your world and watching you posting videos and been really great. So keep it up. Oh, do you have any tips for YouTube while I'm.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Oh, for YouTube? I would say that, like, simulates a piece of advice that I feel like I've given to so many folks when it comes to YouTube stuff, but it's just, like, make the stuff that you want to see, like what you wish there was more of on the platform.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Because ultimately that is what is going to sustain that fire and excitement about stuff and whether or not it hits with the algorithm. C'est la vie. Yeah. But you just gotta. Gotta make more of what you want to see. And I think it. Yeah, I think it just keeps. It keeps your arrow shooting. True.

[Andy J. Pizza]

It does. That's great. That's great. That's going to be my call to adventure for this week, is start thinking about what podcast episode, what YouTube episode is, is what I really need right now. What I'd really wish there was more of. Well, thanks for taking time to do this. It was great.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Oh, my God, thank you so much. Always so good to chat.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Yeah, you too.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Foreign.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Massive. Thanks, Cheyenne, for coming on the show. It's great to chat with you and to reconnect. I hope that we get to do it again someday. So, as I promised, I'm back to share the cta, the creative call to adventure, where we can take some of these ideas and do something with them. I'm calling this one Left Turn. It's called Left Turn because I think what's interesting about where this conversation went is that Cheyenne was stuck in this place, diving deeper and deeper into what we typically think of as the core of illustration, which is the skill of drawing. And the aha moment came from taking a left turn and thinking about the less obvious skill within illustration, which is storytelling. And it's also interesting because that might not be the. The skill, the prominent skill in every illustrator's repertoire, but that's what makes it unique. That's what makes it a creative next turn for Cheyenne. So here's my challenge to you. Whether you're a filmmaker, a musician, a writer, an illustrator, you can probably name the obvious surface level skill that is associated with your medium. You probably know what that well worn path of leveling up looks like within your field. But what would it look like if you took a left term? Like what skill gets overlooked in your medium? What is uniquely interesting to you? What kind of artists do you respond most to? And in fact, maybe ones outside of your medium that you can kind of shoehorn some of that stuff back into your own practice. For me, that looked like metaphor and symbolism and also storytelling. Like, you know, I have that in common with Cheyenne. But for you, it might look totally different. So look past the surface and the obvious road and ask yourself what different, unexpected, complementary skill could be, your next left turn that you. You take a few years to develop and inject into your practice. It's hopefully something that other musicians or illustrators or artists or designers aren't stewarding and cultivating. So I hope that inspires you and gets you excited for the next stage of your journey. And good luck to trying to figure out that next piece. You know, it's okay if it's not the right one. Sometimes we have to go on some weird side quests that don't lead anywhere to find what the real next left turn is going to be. Massive thanks again to Cheyenne Barton for making time to be on the show. Huge thanks to Sophie Miller, who is editor and co producer of the show. Thanks to Connor Jones for audio and video edits and sound design. Thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for theme music and soundtrack. And until we speak again, stay pepped up. How are business leaders working to confront climate change? For that answer, listen to the award winning Climate Rising podcast produced by Harvard Business School and hosted by me, Mike Toffel, a professor at hbs. Each episode we share a behind the scenes view into how startups and the biggest businesses like Microsoft, Google and Seventh Generation are tackling the central issue of our era. Check out Climate Rising wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Rick Rubeck. And I'm Royce Yudkoff. Are you interested in becoming an entrepreneur, owning your own business, and being your own boss? Our new podcast from Harvard Business School.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Think Big, Buy Small, explores becoming an.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Entrepreneur through the acquisition of an enduringly profitable small business. In this series, we guide listeners how to buy their own small business, including determining if this path is right for.

[Cheyenne Barton]

Them, evaluating prospects, raising the capital they'll.

[Andy J. Pizza]

Need to purchase a small business, closing the deal, and more. Follow Think Big Buy Small wherever you get your podcasts.