B (5:47)

Nice. Okay.

A (5:49)

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about this. This like observational drawing habit has become really foundational to everything you do. But I wondered if you could talk about before this recent stage where you've been making these books and doing this observational drawing as an adult, what was going on right before that, before this entered your life?

B (6:14)

Yeah, I. I was a graphic designer for 20 years, and 60, 70% of it was in the art world, which was my passion and sort of what I grew up in. And I went to a fine art school, but design seemed practical, and it sort of just appealed to my different abilities and I just thought I could get a good job. So. And it worked out, and I had a good career. I worked for myself for a really long time, and then I had my kids. It was just a really interesting time when I realized I was fighting with this desire to keep working but also be there for them. And what it meant, like, as the mom in the family and kind of having discussions with my husband about, like, both of us having our careers and how could we support both of us. And it was a little bit of a struggle. I also really, really knew in my heart that the years that mattered were when they were. When they started having memories. I just knew, like, by three or four, you know, usually parents and mothers take off time with their newborn babies, and that is obviously very important time. But once they got a little bit older, I wanted to travel with them. I wanted to really be with them. And I have two boys. They always felt like, sort of different than me in so many ways, but, like, these creatures that I made somehow. And like, I. I just really wanted to be there with them and get to know them. And, you know, I didn't want to sit at the computer and do this work anymore, but I didn't want to stop being creative. And there's all these stories about women, like, trying to get back into the workforce after being home with their kids. And that scared me. And I didn't. There wasn't a clear plan that drawing would somehow become a new career, but it was a way for me to remember their things and also keep my self off of computer screens and. And with them, I could bring it with me. I could just sit there and while they're playing soccer or when they were doing, you know, homework or whatever and. And draw things. There are selfish reasons, but it was also for me to be. To be with my kids. So. And, you know, it's a diary, essentially, it's a diary. So it's. It's compounded the benefits. I talk about it in my books. There's compounded benefits to it, to my practice, and that is just really being Present seeing and absorbing what's happening in the moment. Getting better at drawing through a regular practice, which is something I just really wanted to do. I just wanted to get better. And then, you know, and then having a diet, like a log of our. Of their lives in my life, you know, having something to. To reference and look back on, that.

A (9:11)

Makes tons of sense. The thing that sticks out for me is you have. Everyone has this relationship to creativity. We all have things that get in the way or temporarily derail our relationship to creativity. And I don't know about you, but for me, the times that I've felt really derailed, I have this tendency, this kind of all or nothing thing that says, I want to go from 0 to 60. If I'm gonna get back on it, I want to, like, I want to go all in. And it kind of made me feel like it's like a relationship with an ex where you're like, okay, I know we haven't been together for two years, but let's get married. And you're like, hold on, Whoa. Just slow it down a little bit. And I like what you're saying. Like, for me, looking back on those times, I realized it was actually something small and habitual, like little, you know, dating creativity again, just, like, just getting a little bit. And I like what you're saying about just drawing. Just like, okay, why you wanted to be creative. And I can see in my life, there were lots of times where I was really trying to inject more creativity into it, and it only worked if I started to just kind of let it become part of my life again, rather than be like, all right, I'm going full time again, or I'm going to, you know, I'm changing my career overnight or whatever it is. That's the temptation. Do you feel like that, too? That poll was that. Did it feel like, is this enough to even be just drawing or.

B (10:42)

Well, you know, in the very beginning, I didn't have the confidence to just be like, this is what I want to do now. Let's do it. You know, I want to be an illustrator. I always did work by hand. The school that I went to was very. They really encouraged as much analog work as possible. Even when they introduced all the design. I went to Cooper Union. They have an amazing design program. I wasn't fully immersed in it because you don't have to major there, which is a good thing and a bad thing about the school. I did a little bit. I, like, did a little bit of everything. I was kind of, like, adjacent to the ones who were hardcore design or typography or whatever. But I did a lot of work by hand. And so the interesting thing when I first started drawing was designing the pages and having fun with my handwriting and lettering and playing with that, because that's what was comfortable. And then I was slowly introducing, oh, maybe I could draw this or maybe I could draw whatever it was. But then it was like, these compositions and playing with that. So design was definitely, like, in my mind when I started in a way that it wasn't drawing. I mean, it was, but it wasn't, you know, it was a mixture. So I didn't know. Like, you're saying I wasn't like, oh, my gosh, this is what I want to do. I just. Yeah, I don't know. I always had a sketchbook, and I always wrote and doodled, so it was like literally doodling through. Through experiences. And then I realized one day that I was like, drawing our day. And that's where the draw your day came. Which was.

A (12:26)

That was your first book, right?

B (12:28)

Yeah.

A (12:29)

Did you. All the way through your graphic design career, were you keeping a sketchbook? Because I know, like, even before college, right, you were visual journaling, right. In your personal time, did you take a big break between that? Yeah. Tell us, like, so what was it like before college or before design? What. What was that relationship to drawing like.

B (12:55)

When I was younger?

A (12:56)

Yeah.

B (12:57)

I grew up in a. In a. In art studios, so my grandmother was a sculptor and my mother was an illustrator, and my sister is an artist and she went to Cooper Union before me. My grandfather was a painter, and it really was my life. Like, the question I always say is, would I have a career in. In the. In a creative career or what? Or maybe I wouldn't. You know, like, it was just sort of almost a guarantee just because of the. And it was a lot of women, too, which is nice. Yeah, I. Yeah, I always had. I always had a sketchbook of some kind, but I was. It was a lot of doodles, a lot of, like, kind of. In a way, it's funny, a little bit similar to what I do now. If you look back on, like, high school doodles and drawings, I always liked playing with my handwriting, but I didn't think I could draw that well. My sister was the one who could draw. And for me, drawing meant, like, this is something that I think that we were going to get into a little bit. Is that like, drawing things as they are, getting likeness, being accurate and not drawing like you do, which is like, more from Your memory and from your head and in making caricatures, which is something that I've always wanted to do, but I just don't think that way because it's been ingrained in my head that drawing means drawing the thing. You know, I'm still struggling with that sometimes. And it's almost like when I teach, I'm like, do as I say, not as I do, you know, because I don't want people to be so stuck in getting likeness and exactness. But for me, it's just. It's just my thing, you know, how I draw. I'm not sure if I'm straying from your question, but it was always there. I always had some sort of. Like, I grew up with pencils and.

A (14:46)

Like, it was like a diary, too, right?

B (14:49)

Yeah. I mean, I sat and made drawings in my grandmother's studio when she. When we were there. Yeah. And I have one, like, in our bathroom now from when I was five. Like, I drew forever, for. I've been drawing forever. But when I went to college and I started studying design, I just stopped drawing. And everything was pretty much from first or second year when, like, Adobe Illustrator was starting. I'm aging myself, but, you know, I was right there on the cusp of all of it. And, you know, everything just became Learning Illustrator and Photoshop and. Yeah, it was all on the computer and Quark Express, remember that? So, you know, it just. It was. It was all that and printmaking. I did printmaking. I did a lot of letterpress. There's a working letterpress studio at Cooper. And in a way, it was like a way of avoiding, really drawing, because I didn't think I was the painter or drawer in the family.

A (15:49)

You know, Part of why I ask is because I'm really on the show. I've talked about the hero's journey a lot for years and years because it's just kind of a. I'm really. I'm a picture bookmaker and writer, and so I'm really into storytelling. And I also just find it kind of on a symbolic, spiritual level, interesting. But one of the things that I think is when you start comparing the hero's journey to the creative journey, think one thing that is misunderstood, or I misunderstood it for a long time is that the hero's journey is really about kind of leaving authenticity, leaving who you are. That's leaving home and going out into a place where you're kind of in the unknown, you're kind of in the discomfort zone, and you're trying to see if there's anything there that you can return home with, because there's a whole. It's a whole cyclical journey. And so I think a lot of myself and a lot of other creatives don't realize those journeys outside of your comfort zone, journeys that maybe feel inauthentic or uncomfortable, are super essential. And that really is a huge part of the journey. And so it sounds like that's kind of what happened to you, where you had this home base where this was a natural thing you were doing, even if you had a uneasy relationship to your talent. And then you spit this large period of time in this other world that maybe felt less comfortable, maybe less interesting, even though it sounds like you liked elements of it. So I was just wondering if, as you came back to drawing as kind of your primary medium, what do you feel like you. You touched on this a little bit, but what do you feel like you brought to your drawing from that graphic design career?

B (17:39)

Well, so much. So much that in. In the beginning, so much that it. It was really more about one thing than the other, you know, more. More about the design than the drawing. But I think that doing just basic principles of this natural sense of composition and. And balance and color. There's so many things that I feel like are significant from that time in my life that it's subtle and I take for granted. So I don't know, you know, I talk about things like, oh, my gosh, obvious, you know, but it's not obvious to everyone.

A (18:20)

It sounds like, you know, as you're saying that I'm thinking, it sounds like being in design where representing something in a realistic way is almost never the goal. What the goal ends up being is aesthetic and communication and all. Doing all of these things outside of needing this very narrow skill that you felt like was the end all be all of making art. It sounds like it gave you a bunch of tools and a bunch of different ways to think about the value of something aesthetically or in terms of communication or connection. That didn't mean you had to be this, you know, master of representation in your work.

B (19:08)

Yeah, it didn't. And everything I did before I started drawing the thing or people people was never. It was never about representing anything. It was just, yeah, like I said, colored balance, composition, you know, the design of the thing. And it's interesting, too, because the work that I find I want to hang on my walls and be around in my world are not perfect, realistic drawings of things. The drawing for me, and I'm sort of going in another tangent here, but it's it's related to is that the drawing for me is a feeling. Right. It's like a. It's like pushing myself in a way. It's seeing if I can do the thing and seeing what I can accomplish and going through and actually almost like, getting addicted to those feelings of, like, ick. Of like, oh, my. Oh, no. You know, like, I just got addicted to it. Like, how could I. When would I be satisfied? And how can I keep pushing myself? And, you know, this last year, I saw. I had a photograph, because I love photography, and I take a lot of pictures, and there was. I took a photograph of a guy, like, whizzing by, and there was a vase in front of him that was in focus, and I was like, can I. Can I draw that? How can I paint that? Like, I just constantly want to see if I can paint the thing or draw the thing and. But it's not about selling it or the result or appealing to anybody else other than, like, going through that process in my sketchbook. Yeah, I do share it, so it's kind of. It is for an audience, but I never intend to sell any of it because it's all part of my memories in my life. So I'm totally going on a tangent here.

A (21:08)

No, this is great.

C (21:09)

This is great.

A (21:12)

Because I think you're getting at something very interesting.

B (21:16)

I think I am, too. But the design and all of those skills that I had before are, like, very separate to these little challenges that I give myself on a daily basis in the drawing, but within it, within the framework, it's still all, like, I need to make sure that the page looks finished and it's framed and has a nice composition and there's a color balance. And, you know, so I'm kind of caught between the two. It's an interesting thing, and I think that's why I've been able to publish books and have my work stand out in some way, because it's. It kind of does all these different random things, but it's still just a journal.

A (21:56)

Yeah, I think you're. You're capturing. I think there's two really, really essential elements for a creative practice to work. I think you have both of them. The one I think you're talking about right now is the enjoying the process you have to this. Ideally, it's something that you are getting inherent value from that process of doing it. And then there's this other side that I've heard in your books taught. You talk about this, which I think is about, like, you say, a Feeling, but it's about. To me, it's about taste. So it's not about skill. It's about, do you have an eye for pictures? And I don't just think that means aesthetically. I mean, I think it means knowing, like you say, what to take the image of what tells the story. And when you say that, you don't have an audience in mind. The only challenge I would say to that is I've heard you say something that's almost contrary to that, which is your audience is you in the future, and it's you in the future, and you're trying to do something for that person. What do you think? Does that sound true to you? And if so, what do you think you're trying to do for future you with these drawings?

B (23:12)

Oh, gosh. Some of it's really just practical. Like, I'm going to the place. I have a bad memory. I want to remember, you know, the place where we ate dinner, whatever. Like, some of my pages on travel and when I'm. When I'm exploring a new place, it's just that simple. So it's for my future self to be able to reference. Reference later on, or to reference for other people. Like, we were in upstate New York a few months ago, and we went to a restaurant, and I was like, I think I've been here. And then I went back on my files, and I was like, we've been here. You know, so, like. Because my memory was, you know, a little fuzzy, and some people would have been, like, so clear on it. And I was like, oh, but. So it's practical that way. But I do think the growth is an interesting thing. And I do think, you know, in all of our creative journeys, it's so interesting to be like, you know, you take two steps forward, one step back constantly. And so when I look back at some older work, I'm either it's cringe or whatever, but a lot of times it's also really beautiful to see how far I've come or really think, you know, I want to get back there. That was so much purer.

A (24:24)

I know.

B (24:25)

Or, you know, so the record of keeping the. I mean, I wish I made more work outside of my sketchbook, which is something that I hope to be able to do more of. It's an amazing thing because I've been able to monetize and make something for other people out of this. Pure, pure, authentic. Just throwing it out, like, experience every day in my sketchbook that is like, you know, if I couldn't write books about it. It really would just be like time and time and time of pure, just art for our sake kind of thing and just getting it out, you know, so. But I, you know, I've got the Instagram and I've got the. You know, I've been able to do something with it, which is kind of awesome.

A (25:14)

So I. I want to add one thing here. I want to push you on this because I think there's something. There's even more stuff going on here where you're saying it's practical. It is practical, what you're doing in terms of, like, oh, you want to remember this. But I think there's a edge, there's a real editorial eye in the things that you choose to capture in order to create that memory, which is a. I like to think of illustration. My favorite definition of it is writing with pictures. And it feels akin to a great novelist knowing which specific details to hone in on to make something come alive. And you're doing that, yes, for your future self, but you're also doing that for an audience by just. You're having this, like, empathy for future you of, like, what's going to make this thing, this memory come to life? Because you don't often capture the obvious stuff.

B (26:13)

No.

A (26:14)

Do you have a. Do you want to. Could you talk about the mural that you painted when you dropped your son off? Because I feel like that really highlights this idea.

B (26:23)

Yes. This is really important part of my work and my message for other people, too.

A (26:27)

Yeah.

B (26:28)

Well, so for that story, there was a lot going on in my son. Like, he. He's. He's okay. He. He did my virtual book party with me, and he was. He was awesome. And he let me share this, so he doesn't mind. But. But he. He took an unknown. Like, he just left college, right?

A (26:49)

Yeah.

B (26:49)

And he decided to live with his girlfriend in Bed Stuy in Brooklyn. Like, just. Yeah. At 19. And I was just like, what the hell is happening? We didn't, you know, like, in a way, it's awesome that I raised a kid who, like, knew exactly what he needed to do, and our closeness never stopped. And I, I. But I was definitely, like, not thrilled. So, you know.

A (27:15)

Yeah. Complicated feelings going on as the parent. Yeah, I get that.

B (27:19)

I mean, it was a moment of, like, stress, and I was on that bus, and I, you know, I said, how? I drew the woman across from me, and she's just an average, like, woman who. I love this idea of being in a. In a city like Brooklyn where you just cross paths with all sorts of people and what you have in common, so little. But also significant enough. Like, wherever she was going, we were so different, but she was just, like, on her phone right across from me. We were, like, the only two people on the bus. Brooklyn was kind of whizzing by, and it was a part of Brooklyn that I had never spent a lot of time in anyway. There was just so many layers to that moment on the bus. And I never take buses, but the GPS told me that was the best way, so I always take the subway. And so, like, anyway, it was just. There was so much significance to just sitting across from this woman. But it had nothing to do with Ian, my son. It had nothing to do with the obvious of, like, what. The grocery bags I had at my feet or, like, you know, whatever you might think of me drawing, like, his apartment building or us folding laundry or whatever you might think. And I wrote about that in. So I knew I wanted to draw her. And I sketched a little bit, and then I got off the bus, and it was like, stop me on my tracks. And I was just like, this is so sick. Like, I don't even know how to put it in words, but seeing that mural, and it says, call your mom. And I think there's a series of them, whoever the artist is. And I kind of feel bad I didn't credit the artist in the book, because I don't know who it is, but it's right there. Like, at the end of his block. He's gonna see that thing. And it just. Every time he went, you know, there was so much meaning to seeing that in that moment. And that's a story that. That's a coincidence, right? I mean, that's just like a perfect story. And so that was why I put it in the introduction, because sometimes life just hands you these things. And if you're not. If. But if you're not looking, you'll miss them. And I was so in my head, you know, I totally could have missed it. I. I just feel like there's. That's the thing that's so significant about my practice that I want others to see. It doesn't matter how you draw it, but life hands you these things that are. You know, whether you're writing about it, drawing it in the abstract, drawing it the way I draw it. Exactly. Pretty much as it was, you know, like, however you express it, you want to hold on to certain things like this. Like, it's just. It's just a moment that you need to reflect on in some way and not let it just pass by. And however you slow down and do that is. That's why I say it doesn't matter how you draw. And I stress that all the time. And it's. It's a. It's a hard thing when you draw in a certain way, and it's so practiced, and it's by somebody who's been drawing for 50 years or whatever, you know, 52. And I literally probably on and off for my entire life. So, like, it's hard for me to say, well, you don't have to draw like me, but here are my drawings, you know, so that's kind of a weird place. But it. But that's not what art is about. You know, I went to a fine art school where the. Where the goal was to create art in. In a unique way. Like ego. Like, we want to. You want to be different. Like, you don't want to paint things like everyone else in the room.

A (30:51)

Yeah.

B (30:51)

So, like, it doesn't matter how you express it, but the storytelling in these moments and savoring it and sitting with it and thinking, like, wow, you just have to trust life. Some things are just, you know, and. And obviously he's doing amazing and he's back in college and everything's okay. And it's just like, you know, you can be so anxious and miss these things, you know, So I don't know. That's.

A (31:19)

I love it. I'm gonna show, just for people that are watching on YouTube, here is the bus drawing of the person that was on the phone. And this is the call your mom mural. And I love that moment, knowing here's this mural at the end of history. He's gonna see it all the time. Such a movie moment. The thing that I'm like, convicted about is, is I have this weird. And I imagine a lot of creative people feel this way because I think it's also a neurodivergent kind of thing. And I have this conflicted experience where I love to make art. So much so that I want. Sometimes I'm tempted to go into art making mode in an almost escapist way, like escaping reality. And yet I know that my art is at its best when it's pulling from a present life. And so there's this. And that's such a challenge for me to be present. And so I love that story because like you said, nine times out of 10, me in that moment, I'm gonna miss that. And yet this is the thing that really is gonna make your light, your art have life to it.

B (32:53)

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A (33:46)

I love that you call your book Draw youw Adventures because I think so much of my work is about the learning over my life to find the excitement and the adventure not by escaping reality, but, but by going deeper into it. And so I, you know, it's kind of. I thought of this when I was looking at your work and reading the book. I was thinking like, it feels almost like the opposite of that phrase from the movie up that this idea of adventures out there. But adventure is right here. It's here if you will look for it. And I found in my recent times of being a little bit more diligent with a sketchbook, I'm more tapped in to that if I will give something a moment of attention. And I think your book really gets at that.

B (34:36)

Yes, yes. That's the key. I think that when you're, when you're drawing from memory and from your imagination, there's such a presence to that. I mean, and it is art making just the same abstract work and everything. But the benefit of drawing what you see and what's actually happening in the world gives you a, like, it's, it's a kind of like another, it's another practice. It's another way of making art, but also being present. And I spend a lot of my time looking for the things and really, really in tune to all these stories that I can tell in unique ways because our, our lives kind of get boring and they all blend into the next. And, you know, where did the week go? And all of that was that kind of concept of like, oh my gosh, you know, it's already October or whatever. You know, there, there are ways of slowing time in a way and really being, being present. And it doesn't matter if you're going to sail across the country or you're going to the DMV to like, sit there in the waiting room for four hours. You know, there's something to notice. There's fascinating people right in front of you that are in especially New York City. You know, like, there's so much to pull from in the everyday.

A (35:59)

Absolutely.

B (36:00)

It's, you know, it's just. It's just a. I'm like really just be sitting with it and it doesn't matter what you choose. So, like, let's say you're sitting at the dmv, for example, and that's what my book I'm trying to do. It's like, there's like. I don't. I don't know. I think I had a list of prompts for something like that. You know, like adventures that you don't really choose. Yeah, but choose you. You know, necessary appointments. Let's just say you're drawing somebody the shoes of the person next to you to like the sign that keeps flashing or, you know, you're commenting on the. How the person. On the. Like, it's like the noise of the person calling out the numbers, like, whatever. It's just sitting there with one thing is. Will bring you back to that moment no matter what it is.

A (36:50)

Yeah.

B (36:51)

Because you're really just sitting with it. And so for me, it's like. Well, you know, sometimes it is just like the monument or the pretty vase of flowers or like the obvious nice thing that. Because. Oh, and I talk about this too. What you want to draw and what will bring you back. Finding the balance in those two things.

A (37:16)

Can you say more about that?

B (37:18)

You know, I love to draw shoes. I love to draw hands. I love to draw people from behind. I'm not very good with a lot of movement, so I like things that are more still. So that's why I like choose shoes. Because people like to kind of hold their feet if they're sitting, you know, but that's. But that's not what you would choose. Right. So it's what each person is gravitated to, like, what catches their attention and what they think they would want to spend time drawing. So that's a personal choice.

A (37:48)

Yes, it's a point of view.

B (37:51)

It's a point of view. It's a personal choice. It's a skill thing. Like, oh, I can do that. Really cool. And my. Whatever, you know, I don't know. But then there is like, the storytelling factor and like, what could be cool to bring me back right now? Like, this is so boring. I'm sitting here for four hours and when are they going to call my number and whatever. So, like, you know, how can you kind of breathe excitement into that? By choosing what to draw. So I don't know. There's.

A (38:20)

Yeah, that's an interesting. Just the idea of choosing where to put your attention is something that you're able. It's an. It's a. You're exercising even some agency by doing that. You don't really feel like that when you're stuck in the dmv. Feel like there is no agency. I'm stuck at the end, you know.

B (38:37)

Yeah.

A (38:38)

Yes, actually, I am doing something and I. The other thing I like about that is, you know, I have a side of what I do is drawing. Side of what I do is writing. And I think the same. Even if you don't draw, you can do the same thing with writing. I've found that my temptation when I go right is, all right, time to write something funny or profound or clever, whatever. Like, now it's time to do that. And I've learned I'm not, you know, I'm not always excellent at this, but it's a discipline I've learned. Write something true that happened. Try not to embellish it at all initially. Just. Can you. And sometimes I'll just do it from a memory. This has happened a bunch of times and a lot of those things have turned into episodes of this show where I'm literally just like, okay, pick a memory that comes to mind. Okay. It's. I remember being in West Virginia when my mom lived there and there was a kid on the playground that used to watch our TV from the window. And we're always like, what. What's the kid doing? I said, I'm gonna like write this really descriptive thing and then you'll be surprised by your brain having opinions on it.

B (39:46)

Your brain having you create your own story.

A (39:48)

Yeah. And so there's something that happens by just being there and observing. It can kick start all the other things you work in your art. Yeah.

B (39:59)

I remember the first time that I realized that I was drawing the dogs waiting in New York. And then that was a theme, the dogs waiting. And that, that was actually like a really cool concept in and of itself of like, who chooses to leave their dog outside, how they're tied up, how long they leave them. Like, you can create a whole. Like, if I had a dog, I would never tie them up outside, you know, like, I don't know. All these different stories all the time.

A (40:30)

Stor feel like a Dog tied up outside. You know when your life is stalling and you're like, who tied me up here? Like, there's so much there. Yeah, I love it.

B (40:38)

And then the personalities and these dogs, there's so many levels of it. Like, oh, they're, they're. And I create like these little voices in my head of how their voice would sound and how they're. Some of them are just so anxious and they can't keep their eyes off the door waiting and. And then some of them are like, oh, my gosh, I've been here, what, for an hour? And you know what? Whatever. It is so many different, like, you could just do so many like comic strips or different way, you know, for me, I just like draw them as I see them, but then they like. I know that the stories are there and I just want to keep drawing them and I want to have like a whole book of them choosing of that thing and, and, and the stories that you can create. You know, maybe I need to like partner with, with, with you on, like here, now write a blurb for each. You know, like, whatever. I don't know. I could do it myself probably, but I wouldn't. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, there's. There's so many stories you can make up on something. So. Yeah.

A (41:41)

So I love that because it's. It brings something to mind that I would say a lot when I would teach a class here locally with college age illustrators. And one of the things I would say is take note and embrace what you want to draw, what you find yourself gravitating towards. And when I say, why did you choose that? You can't say, because it's cool. It's cool to you. There's a reason. Pull at that.

B (42:14)

Right.

A (42:15)

Go deeper in that. Trust it. That taste for this aesthetic or this item or whatever. It's connected to something. And as you like, choose it and trust it, you will start to find, like, what is it that. Why am I gravitating towards us? Or you'll start creating a story around it even if there wasn't something there. Because you're just, you're like act taking action. Right. And I think you do have. That's. That's where you're. I think so much of your voice comes from just letting yourself be magnetized to the things that are drawing you in and then trusting that. I think it's so true.

B (42:54)

Did you.

A (42:54)

When you were talking about, could you. We always end with a creative call to adventure. It's a thing you can do with the ideas from the episode. I think it'd be great to end with something on this idea of the unchosen adventure. I love this idea. You mentioned it briefly. Could you talk about, like, how do you go about embracing the unchosen adventure through drawing? Maybe you could explain what the unchosen adventure is a little bit more and then how drawing kind of helps you connect with that.

B (43:28)

Oh, sure. Yeah. Well, we all have chores and things that we don't really want to do. Whether it's. Yeah. To laundry, to emptying the dishwasher, to going to the doctor, you know, and some people have to have, like regular doctor's appointments for a reason.

A (43:46)

Yeah.

B (43:46)

You know, you can take unfortunate situations and bring creativity to it and pull out something that, you know, excites you each time. Like, let's say you have some, I don't know, unfortunate diagnosis. Right. I don't know. And you have to go to a series of doctor's appointments. Maybe there's a way of actually getting yourself somewhat excited about that because you have a creative project in mind. And I know that sounds crazy, but it's actually possible if you're looking for it. Each time you go, you draw the same thing, which is like, you know, you could do a series of, like your, you know, your feet crossed at the. Looking down at your, you know, perspective drawing or whatever. You could draw like, you know, I don't know, maybe there's like a little vase of flowers or any. Really. Honestly, that's the thing that I was saying before. It doesn't matter almost what it is, but it's just the thing. And then you create like a series of it. But it can also be something like, you know, I've seen a lot of people drawing their dirty dishes. My sister did that. She did a whole series of paintings of. They're so cool, so beautiful.

A (44:59)

Yeah.

B (45:00)

So it's like call to action. There would be. Yeah. Like the things that you just don't really want to be doing. How can you make it so that you kind of want to do it? Because you're going to have another chance to create this thing. And creative series are amazing because you see the progress over time. You, you know, you watch yourself evolve and change, you know, to do this for 30 times, you know, that's why, like, the 100 day project is so popular. Those kinds of things. I don't do them because I kind.

A (45:34)

Of already, already do that.

B (45:36)

I'm hard, hard on myself already. Like, I do the. Yeah. There are so many ways of breathing excitement into, like, the most mundane situation.

A (45:46)

So I love this idea too, because again, my hero's journey obsession, one of the things that Joseph Campbell would talk about is this idea that lots of most heroes are reluctant heroes, that very few people would choose to go on adventure because it's uncomfortable. It's, you know, it requires courage, all that. Most heroes get thrown into something they didn't really choose. And also, just to note, I think, what you're getting at with the diagnosis or you're in a serious situation, whatever, I think for people that that prompt sounds inspiring and sounds like it's additive, then go for it. And if it doesn't, I think we all know that there's no pressure to be creative or make a creative project. No, of course not. But if it does, it can actually be additive. And the thing I love about it, and I. I never shut up about this on the show, so I won't go deep in it because my listeners have heard it too many times. But I'm fascinated by this body of research that says whether stress in your body is you stress, which is good stress, or distress, which is bad stress and bad for you, is mostly determined by your embrace of the thing or your rejection of the thing. If you reject the thing, it actually manifests in your body in a worse way. Whereas if you find ways. And obviously there's all kinds of different circumstances, there's plenty of circumstances that nobody can embrace, and there's no judgment on that. But I love this concept because it is a way of those things that you're on this adventure whether you like it or not.

B (47:29)

Right.

A (47:29)

This is a way to engage with it as part of your story and part of your art.

B (47:34)

Yeah, exactly. And whether it's like a big heavy thing or just the annoying thing that you hate to do, it's like a calming your nervous system situation. Like, what will calm you down. I'm a very anxious person. So my whole entire practice is, in a way, a desire and a need to calm my nervous system. It slows me down and it. And it. And it makes me more present and it keeps me from spiraling to just draw. It's like my meditation. So. So whether it's. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like, if it. I always tell people this. If this is. Does not. If you don't want to do it. Like, art making is a choice. If you don't want to, you're not going to do it. And you're not, you know, like, it's you. You have to it has. It is all a choice. So it's just a matter of, like, choosing the thing that brings you peace, you know, and brings you some sort of comfort, no matter if everything. You know, like, honestly, you could go schedule a trip across the world and be planning it for a year and then get stuck in the airport or lose your bag or. There's always. There's always a way of working through the good and the bad through a creative, you know, regulating your. Your. Yourself by a creative practice. But at the same time, some people get really worked up when they're creating, so it's. It's like finding the happy place, you know, so. And I always say, like, you want to do what's comfortable and easy for you 75% of the time, but then push it. Push yourself a little bit so that you're always growing. The. You know, the challenge just should not be the whole practice because you're not going to enjoy it then, you know, it has to be a balance. Yeah.

A (49:25)

And it goes right into what they talk about with flow being. If you want to get in a flow state, it's about 70% mastery and 30% challenge. So I think you're, like, absolutely spot on right there.

B (49:38)

Exactly. Yeah. I've never heard that, but yes, exact. I mean, I. The 7030 is my go to message all the time, so.

A (49:46)

Good. This was great. It was great talking to you. Great to meet you.

B (49:50)

Thank you.

A (49:51)

Thank you for your work. And in the book, tell everybody where they can check out Draw youw Adventures.

B (49:58)

Well, anywhere books are sold. So if you have a favorite bookstore and they don't have it, they'll order it for you. But.

A (50:05)

And should people find you on Substack, is that the best place?

B (50:08)

Yes, I'm on Substack. My substack is Draw youw World, and my Instagram is a holdover from Design Days, so it's SD on Baker Design. I'm stuck with it. I can't do anything about it. If you just see my name, you'll. You'll find me.

C (50:27)

Great.

B (50:27)

And the books are the best way to support me. And so, yeah, awesome. Thank you, Andy. Thank you.

A (50:50)

I'm not going to add too much here, because I think we did a good job exploring this in the episode, but the CTA this week, your call to adventure is to embrace the unchosen adventure through your creative work. So I love this idea of bringing a sketchbook to the thing that you're dreading, and I love it because it is a real coping mechanism for me as an ADHD person. It helps me to go deeper into reality instead of escape it. But if you're someone who's sensitive to reality can also be a thing that's calming you down. And so if you have things in your everyday right now that just feel like they're getting in the way of the life that you plan, could you potentially inject a little bit of creativity in that space? Because not only will it perhaps help you choose this unchosen adventure and give you a little bit of relief by embracing this as a reality in your life, but also it will help you find some creative inspiration. Some of those difficulties, those roadblocks, end up being the creative fodder for our best work. You know, if you think about the creative works that you love the most, so many of them are about unchosen adventures. And so I hope that inspires you. It definitely inspired me. Thank you Samantha for being on the show, everybody. Go check out her work on Substack and check out her new book, Draw youw Adventures, which I think is just really gorgeous and a really good practice. Massive thanks to Sophie Miller for being a producer and editor on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for audio edits, video edits, sound design, animation. Thanks to Yoni Wolf of the Band yeah for the theme music and the soundtrack. And hey, thanks to you for listening. Do whatever you got to do to stay pepped up y'. All. Okay, the podcast is over so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry, market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter@andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path handbooklet. And the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up y'.

B (53:49)

All.

C (53:51)

What does it mean to live for the Common Good? Introducing the Garrison Institute Presents the Common Good, the brand new podcast from the Garrison Institute, a leading, not for profit organization exploring the intersection of contemplation and engaged action in the world. Hosted by me, Jonathan F.P. rose, a co founder of the Garrison Institute, the series dives into the threads that bind us on first, you'll discover the interdependent nature of life with environmental entrepreneur Paul Hawken and trailblazing plant intelligence researcher Monica Gagliano. Next, we unlock the mysteries of the mind with renowned psychiatrist Dan Siegel and Pulitzer Prize winning author Siddhartha Mukherjee. Finally, we experience compassion in action with social justice activist Conda Mason and environmental leader Bill McKibben. We invite you to listen, reflect and join us in acting for the common good. Follow the Garrison Institute presents the Common Good on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you are. Listening now.