528 - Overcome Urge to Bury Artwork, Escape Overthinking, Cultivate Your Spark & Re-Find Magic

Summary

---

Creative Pep Talk, Ep. 528: “Overcome Urge to Bury Artwork, Escape Overthinking, Cultivate Your Spark & Re-Find Magic”

Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guest/Listener: Jake Martin
Release Date: October 29, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This special “Ask Dr. Pizza” episode is an energetic, insightful, and deeply honest conversation between host Andy J. Pizza and listener/aspiring illustrator Jake Martin. Together they unpack the realities of creative discipline, overcoming overthinking and self-criticism, managing time and energy, finding inspiration when your “spark” fades, and maintaining creative momentum alongside the rest of life’s demands. The vibe is warm, vulnerable, and practical—packed with relatable stories, favorite tools, and actionable advice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Paradox of Creative Discipline

• Creativity vs. Discipline: Creativity is about novelty; discipline is about consistency. Striking the right balance feels tricky and sometimes even contradictory.
• Andy’s Take: “Most of the good things in my life have been something that I’ve been consistent at, 100%.” (46:26)

The Flow Cycle

• Andy describes the creative life as a cycle:
  • The thrill of a new challenge (10% mastery/90% challenge) evolves into the sweet spot of engaging flow (70% mastery/30% challenge), and eventually into boredom or over-mastery (90% mastery/10% challenge).
  • When mastery turns to monotony, seeking a new creative challenge is essential to reignite your excitement.
• Quote:
  • “You want to maximize that [70/30 flow], but once you’re too comfortable, you lose the magic. That’s when you need to switch things up.” (15:23)

2. Overcoming the Urge to Bury Your Work & Escape Overthinking

• Perfectionism and the Inner Critic
  • The “failure to launch” feeling is pervasive for new and experienced creatives alike.
  • The myth is that flow should always feel easy and fun, but real growth is challenging by nature.
  • Andy warns against letting your inner critic (the “editor”) tangle with your creative self during the act of creation.
  • Strongly advocates for separating the playful “maker” from the analytical “editor”, often literally by using different physical spaces or rituals.
• Quote:
  • “That negativity, that voice saying ‘this is shit’—that’s the part you don’t want during creation. Try what Austin Kleon suggests: have two desks, externalize your mind.” (20:38)
• Practical Tactic:
  • Try both versions when you feel stuck, rather than debating internally (“I did a poster in flat color, and then a watercolor one… It’s easier to decide after.”) (21:12-22:34)
• On Social Comparison:
  • We only see the polished 10% of others’ work. Don’t compare your messy middle to someone else’s highlight reel. (17:13)

3. Time & Energy Management for Creatives with Full Schedules

• Context: Both creators have day jobs, families, and side projects.
• Andy’s Key Point: Having all your creative work monetized is the worst possible scenario—always keep a passion project that’s just for you!
  • “The only thing I would say, the worst possible scenario… is that all of what you want to do as a creator is monetized.” (30:35)
• Staying Driven: Dopamine isn’t about “getting”—it’s about “chasing.” Cultivate a project that pulls you excitedly through your routine.
• On Seasons: Life is seasonal, and it’s healthy to recognize phases of intense creativity vs. downtime.

Tip: “Cheat on your career with a side project.”

• “Always have something you’re cheating on your career with.” (31:18)

4. Cultivating & Reigniting Creative Spark

• Losing Your Spark:
  • When you feel uninspired or in a “dry spell,” Andy suggests “picking up the thread” of a previous interest, but avoid Uncle Rico vibes (nostalgic stagnation).
  • “Pause and say: when was the last moment in my life that felt like magic?” (35:04)
  • Write lists of your current “special interests” to maintain object permanence if you’re someone for whom passions come and go.
• Opening to New Inspiration:
  • “Find your older brother”—keep people or sources in your life whose taste you respect and be willing to try and acquire new tastes.
  • “The reason why a lot of people later in life lose their creativity is because their taste expires.” (73:53)

CTA: Who is your ‘older brother’ right now? Name a source you trust for new inspiration, and intentionally cultivate acquired tastes—even if you don't like them at first! (73:53)

5. Practical Consistency: Building Habits as a Creative

• Creativity & Habit Science:
  • Traditional habit wisdom (do it the same way, it becomes automatic) often fails creative brains.
  • Andy’s metaphor: “I don’t have an automatic car of a brain. I have a manual brain. There is no automatic transmission.”
• Creative Consistency Hacks:
  • Keep the practice light and fun.
  • Change up details (tools, playlists, locations) to inject novelty.
  • Anchor it to small, achievable actions (e.g., daily ten-minute drawings).
  • “Most of the good things in my life have been something I’ve been consistent at—100%.” (46:04)
  • “The only way I’ve learned to do it is the opposite of what they tell you—keep it fresh and novel.” (47:31)

6. Navigating Guilt about “Wasting” Time or Pursuing Other Hobbies

• On Video Games, Rest, and Energy:
  • Both agree that willpower drains as the day goes on; tackle your most meaningful work early.
  • Don’t demonize your desire for downtime, but set boundaries around all-consuming time-wasters.
  • Biggest time thief? Phone scrolling. “Just don’t do it.” (57:09)
  • Tricks: Put the phone across the room; replace with a book (East of Eden gets a shoutout).

7. Book Recommendations & Influences

• Primal Intelligence by Angus Fletcher: "One of the best books I’ve ever read in that vein… so true, so novel, and also essential.”
  • (62:36)
• The Writer’s Journey by Christopher Vogler: For those interested in the Hero's Journey and story-thinking.
  • (64:58)
• Growth Hacker Marketing by Ryan Holiday: Awful name, but essential insights for creators bringing work to market.
  • (65:23)
• Atomic Habits by James Clear: For building creative-friendly routines.
  • (61:51)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On creativity being part joy, part struggle:
  • “I like what Austin Kleon talks about, where it can be two different desks… externalize your mind.” (20:38)
• On acquiring taste and staying creatively young:
  • “Find your older brother…because if you don’t, you’re going to get stuck in your ways.” (39:39)
• Most Consistent Creativity Tip:
  • “I think learning that muscle—and figure out how to want to embrace something not just because you have to, but because you want to—consistency matters.” (49:46)
• Why create at all?
  • “I make stuff because if I don’t, I get sad. It’s that simple.” (50:33, citing Will Bryant)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic/Quote | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Introduction (setup, themes, Jake’s background) | 00:03–09:36 | | Why starting is hard—the myth of fun & ease in creativity | 11:19–17:59 | | On overthinking, self-criticism, and the “USB stick” analogy | 20:37–26:54 | | Planning, routines, and time management | 28:49–34:28 | | Rediscovering spark and “seasonality” of creativity | 34:30–38:56 | | Staying open, “older brother” advice, music as practice | 39:39–44:18 | | Consistency, creative habits, the “manual brain” metaphor | 45:49–51:32 | | Navigating hobby guilt, balancing rest vs. creative work | 54:27–57:52 | | Books that changed Andy’s creativity | 61:38–66:00 | | Rapid-fire questions: favorites (tools, games, movies, etc.) | 66:17–72:59 | | Call to Adventure: Name Your Older Brother | 73:53 |

---

Rapid-Fire Q&A Highlights

• Physical or Digital Illustration?
  • Andy: “Physical has to be.”
• Favorite Tool:
  • “Pencil. Blackwing for the soft dark line.” (66:38)
• Favorite Project:
  • “Invisible Things…right side out is up there too.”
• Favorite Video Game:
  • The Zelda franchise, especially “A Link to the Past.”
• Favorite 90s Cartoon:
  • “Aaahh!!! Real Monsters” and “X-Men.”
• Favorite Movie:
  • “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” and “Spirited Away.”

---

The Episode’s Key Takeaways

• Creativity isn’t always fun—embrace the challenge, practice separating your critical and creative selves, and experiment boldly.
• Consistency is absolutely crucial, but for creatives, habits must be both disciplined and novel.
• Never let all your creativity be about money. Always preserve a “just for you” project.
• Stay curious—intentionally expose yourself to new influences, “name your older brother,” and push through the discomfort of new tastes.
• Accept life’s seasons, and remember that rest, hobbies, and even video games have their place—just be mindful and intentional.
• Build your own creative rituals, keep things light, and trust that the magic often comes after the effort is spent—not before.

---

Listener CTA:
Name your “older brother” (mentor, curator, playlist, etc.) who exposes you to new tastes. Practice seeking out and sitting with new, even uncomfortable, art and influences. That’s how your creative magic keeps evolving.

---

Find more at creativepeptalk.com and see Jake’s work at Stanky Art on Instagram (handle: @stankyart).

Transcript

[A]

On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost. But don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. This is the kind of episode you throw on when you're in a creative funk, but you don't know exactly what you need. It might be in here because we're going to cover a lot of stuff because this is a special edition of an Ask doctor Pizza episode. Ask doctor Pizza episodes. We cover a few different topics. Usually they're questions sent in by an audience. They are a listener favorite that people usually tend to enjoy these episodes. This one's special because we have a listener live in the studio. Here he is just kidding. He's not actually here. We talked over the Internet, but Jake Martin volunteered. He had some questions he wanted to ask me and it just sounded like a good fit. So we set this up. We chat through so many different things. He was really, really great at this. He has some experience and we covered some grounds. We covered creative discipline. The oxymoron. How do you find any consistency in your creative practice? When being creative is about doing new things, we talk about how to find some consistency and discipline in your practice in a way that's not boring and actually manageable. The second thing we talk about is finding a new muse. When your inspiration is dry, when you're not interested in art or maybe even life, what do you do when you need that new hyper fixation, that new thing to be passionate about? How do you find it? How do you tap back into it? How do you pick up the thread? We also talk about how do you get past that feeling of this is wrong, maybe I should do something else. When you're sat down making stuff, how do you quiet that that critic? Or should you? We're going to talk about that. We dive deep into that and stay to the end. I'm going to come back with a quick cta. It's called name your older brother and we'll get to what that means. But I think we all need to do this from time to time in our creative practice. So stick around for that. Here's my chat with listener, new time illustrator and great question asker Jake Martin. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm a long time user. One of the things I love about Squarespace is I will use. It's so easy to use that I will use it to create pitches. If I'm pitching a book or I'm pitching something to a client, I will use a Squarespace page in my website and I'll build the whole thing there. Then you don't have these clunky like document PDFs clogging up people's inboxes. And it looks super slick. If you want to see one of those that I use all the time, I did one for my series right side out. Andyjpizza.com RSO and you can see how I create a little pitch summary of that project. Go to squarespace.com pep talk. Get building for free and trying it out and testing it. And then when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk all one word for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks, Squarespace. Hey y'. All. We have our 2026 calendars in the shop. Each month of the calendar features different episode art from this show, kind of the best of the year, and gives you a different pep talk each, each and every month. So my hope is that there's even maybe some spooky synchronicity that happens with the art the day you remember to flip the calendar, whether that's day one or day 27 that you get the pep talk you need in that artwork that day. You know, one can hope. These calendars are offset. They are offset printing. Beautiful. Smell like good printed matter, which is just my favorite thing. And we added a bunch of T shirts and stickers into the shop and there are even some new invisible things that are really cool and I think make good gifts for the holidays Coming up for a limited time, just a few weeks, listeners of the show are going to get 10% off if they use promo code Peppy P E P P Y Peppy when they check out as a thank you for supporting my creative practice and helping me justify making this show every week. Thanks. So this is, this will be a, a kind of unique version of an Ask doctor Pizza episode where I'm actually talking to somebody. Who are you?

[B]

Hello, my name is Jake Martin and I'm just a nobody who really was enjoying.

[A]

Andy, Come on, give yourself more credit than that.

[B]

And I am a fledgling or starting illustrator who's who's always really enjoyed by drawing my whole life. Took a lot of drawing classes in high school and a little bit in college and then kind of just stuck the track of I'm going to play it safe. I'm going to, I'm going to go into marketing instead. I'm going to get a job that's in marketing that has some connotations with it. And I've done that for the past. Let's see, I graduated in 2014. So I've been doing that almost for 11 years and I just recently started listening to the podcast and I was like, man, I really want to get back into illustrating and make this something more that I can pursue alongside my career and potentially make it into something.

[A]

Bigger and potentially go into radio. You could have played this whole thing differently because you have this authoritative voice. Like, I've been in the game for years. Let me teach you something and I'm sure I can learn from you. But. Yeah, well, should have just went in there hard like that.

[B]

Funnily enough, I went into college with the idea of doing. Yeah, doing radio.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Everyone told me, they're like, oh, man, your voice is so great. Your voice.

[A]

You got a good voice. Yeah.

[B]

But then again, everyone is like, oh, yeah, radio is kind of on the out, brother. You don't want to go into that. And like, podcasts were just starting to pick up in like 2010-2014. And I remember going to like our local NPR station and I was like, hey, can I like intern with you guys? And they're like, well, do you know what a podcast is? And I was like, no, I guess I should figure this out.

[A]

That was like, 2014.

[B]

He said 2013, 2012 when I did that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we started in 2014. I was kind of a early adopter on podcasts. I was listening to podcasts in like 2008 or something. I just, yeah, I was very into it for all kinds of different reasons. But yeah, and then podcasting hit kind of a bubble. Even though podcast growth is still happening and, and it's happening a lot on YouTube, the ad market really hit a bubble in 2022. So, yeah, that world's also different. There's always, there's always opportunity and there, there es and flows, you know, But I'm, I'm pumped to talk with you. You do, you have done like a, a video podcast of some kind, right? Do you want to talk about that?

[B]

So I've done, I've done two, two podcasts. So I'm not. Yeah, I'm not.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm not an amateur in the podcasting space, I don't think at this point. But yeah, I have been doing a video game podcast with my friends since 2015, 2016, and it's very irregular. We started off trying to be regular and then again working the full time job on top of that, I was like, I don't think I can do this. We weren't making any money, so it felt kind of silly. And now my Friends have kids. We're all in that parent stage. And so my friend and I that are still doing it, we just podcast every month, every two months, whatever feels right for us. And then I did another podcast with a guy in the UK named Retro Dodo. He still is running stuff. He does a lot of emulator retro console things. He's a great guy. His name's Brandon. He reached out to me and was like, hey, would you want to help us kind of launch our podcast and get it rolling? So he and I got together. He was recording in London or like around Bass, that area which is probably not near London. And then I don't think it is.

[A]

But I don't know for sure, honestly.

[B]

You spent some time over here?

[A]

I haven't been to Bath though, but I. I've heard it's lovely. I think it's a coastal place actually.

[B]

He's over there somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So he was recording like in the mid afternoon and I was waking up at like 6am to record a podcast here in Tennessee. So that was, that was a challenging but really, really good experience and had a ton of fun doing that.

[A]

But they were both video game related. So you're a big gamer.

[B]

Big gamer.

[A]

And the one that I feel like the stuff that I saw was there Zelda or Elden Ring or something I heard you talk about. I was like that's my jam. So I don't know what mostly probably Zelda. Yeah. All right.

[B]

I'm a. Elden Ring is amazing too.

[A]

And I love Elden Ring. People are sick of it. I'm sure I weave it into. Somehow find a way to weave it into these episodes.

[B]

But yeah, I haven't tried the new Night Rain game so.

[A]

Good. I was upset. I got. I went through this period of time where it's like all that I wanted to do.

[B]

It's dangerous.

[A]

It's. It's really intense. It's so. It's so intense. I was like feeling like I think I have to quit doing this because of the stress levels. It's crazy. You have to like maximize every second in that game. It's nuts. Anyway, let's talk about stuff that we're here to talk about. It's lovely to meet you, Jake. Thanks for offering to do this. I know you prepared a few questions. Love to have a chat about it.

[B]

Dr. Peter. Yeah, so I already gave my introduction but you know, being in the space that I am right now where I am working a full time job that I enjoy and I'm starting to branch off into this side illustration stuff where I also feel like there's some opportunity there. One of the first questions I had was kind of around this idea of failure to start. Failure to launch, maybe. Is that a Matthew McConaughey movie? I don't.

[A]

I don't remember. I think it is something like that.

[B]

You covered this a few times, but I think it's a good word that we all need to be reminded of or hear more often. Like, a lot of people, including me, get caught up in the excitement of a new idea. Like, okay, this is it. This is what I want to do. I see all these cool people doing this thing, and I want to do that same exact thing. So you plan it out. You know, planning is the easiest part. You think about how you're going to do it. You may even buy some new materials, some new illustration kits, or whatever you want. You sit down, you start, and then you're like, oh, this isn't as exciting as I thought it was going to be. Or this is harder than I thought it was going to be. So starting there, what advice do you have around that? Or have you experienced that and how have you kind of pushed that?

[A]

Absolutely. I think there's a couple things going on there that I think are at play, and there are themes that run through the show because they're so common. They occur all the time, even at the stage I'm in right now. And I think there's two things at play. One is, I feel like there is, for me, this idea that flow is supposed to be synonymous with ease, or creativity is supposed to be synonymous with ease. And I think it's really interesting to think about how the researchers around flow would talk about. It's really a 70, 30. It's a 70 mastery, 30% challenge. And obviously, I also think it's important to realize that there's a life cycle. There's a flow cycle to any new creative endeavor. I've talked about twenty one pilots a lot recently. I wasn't, like, an original OG fan. My kids got super into there. They live around here, so everybody kind of knows them. I have my friend that's cool Mark, does a bunch of their video stuff. And so I, through osmosis, I've picked up a lot. And then I became a fan kind of like, late in the game. I really like the stuff I'm doing lately, even though it's not exactly in my taste profile. But, yeah, but I super respect them, and I think they do some really awesome stuff. But Tyler, the lead singer, one of the things you notice with him is he's constantly over the arc of all these albums, changing instruments. And I think it's because of this flow cycle and where you start on an instrument that's probably, like, 10% mastery and 90% challenge. And that's not super fun to be in that learning phase. Right. And anything. When I started doing, I wanted to switch to, like, analog painting, traditional paint for my picture books. In about 2017, I started to dip my toes into those paints, those paint waters, and I was like, I wasn't painting with my toes, but you get it. But I was like. I was. I was trying that out. And at first, it was mostly just difficult, and I think I was. I've always been waiting for that moment. I always. I think it's because of the music docs, like the. Where I want to walk into a guitar center, pick up an instrument for the first time. I've never even seen this thing and start, like, you know, making some moves. And the whole. The whole shop is like, turns like, whoa, what is this? I've always wanted that moment, and it just doesn't ever come. And I think what ends up happening is as you learn something, it goes from a natural trajectory, from zero percent mastery, all challenge. And hopefully, I think if you're somewhat natural at something, you might start with a 5% or a 10%, like, natural. Kind of like, I see my son picking up guitar. He has a more natural sense of, like, tone in notes and tuning. And he, I can see, has a lot more than I have. And so he might be starting with a 10. And then as you move through the life cycle of learning something, it. You're that 70, 30, that elusive space, you want to maximize that as much as possible. I think you can maximize it, too, by learning, pushing, not just learning new things on the guitar, the instrument, but also trying to see what else.

[B]

What.

[A]

What can you do with this thing that maybe wasn't intentional or how all the. There's so many different angles. Right. It's not just the instrument. You could stay on one instrument probably forever and still maintain some balance. But watching Tyler, you can see how he moves from instrument to instrument. And I probably think it has something to do with. At some point you go from now you are too good at it. Now it's like 90%. And this is what happened with digital illustration for me. Not because I never. I never pursued, like, a realism or.

[B]

I've mastered this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because I've never mastered that. But I. I got too good at what I was trying to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so everything became ultra clean too locked in. There wasn't any happy accidents. And it wasn't my taste. That was the thing wasn't my taste is much more lo fi. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to switch. So I think it's a flow cycle thing. So when you sit down, there's going to be challenge and there's going to be. It's difficult. I think we think that that is a wrong way sign. That's a. So much of my podcast is that like, no booby traps, no treasure. It's like, there you have. The booby traps are part of it. That, that challenge is part of it. And then the other thing is. All right, I'm. I'm gonna. Let me just take. I'm gonna take a note because there's two other things that I couldn't. That I want to riff on, because this is probably the question is why isn't it fun all the time? Or why is it hard?

[B]

Or it's supposed to always be fun.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I did this because it was fun. But I'd like to give you a little space to respond before I just continue to.

[B]

No, no, that's great. I had a few thoughts when you were. When you were talking. And I think part of this. And I think you may have mentioned this too. Part of like the struggle is you. You build a picture in your head of what. What it's going to be like. And that is so at odds with. With reality. And that's the case for almost anything in life. You know, the comparative nature of social media, whatever else kind of you. You are forming images with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or. Or just this idea again. So when you go to sit down and we. We know this, but like, it's really hard to get over that hurdle of. Okay. It's for me to get to point B where I saw that person that I really admire. I'm not seeing all the other 90% of that person's day.

[A]

True.

[B]

Where they're just grinding away, making terrible art or terrible creative work this entire time. And I'm only seeing that 10%. And so for anybody. My buddy and I were just talking about this at a bar last week where he was just like, he's like, yeah, I really admire this writer and I'll never be as good as him. And I was like, well, that's not true. Like, you're only seeing his published pieces. Like, the writing that you produce is really good. And, you know, if you keep doing this and you really produce some Stuff that's highly edited and you spend a lot of time on, like, you'll have writing that is almost as good as this person, because you know, that person that you admire has stuff that they've. They've not shown the public. Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I think that's part of it. I think that's part of it is like, making or making time or like, making sure to remind yourself that the stuff that you're making, even if it's not the best, is part of it, is part of getting to the pieces that you really enjoy.

[A]

Absolutely. I think there's a few things that I would want to qualify because there's a challenge and a negativity, a kind of negative experience to creating that is good and part of the process. And then there might also be some that is maybe really getting in the way of yourself. And so I think I feel like one thing that's really helped me is to realize that part of my creative process is negative, but in the way that wrestling is negative. If you like to wrestle. I never wrestled. Never really my thing. I didn't really like. Even the kids that got too rough, I always been like, whoa, what are you touching me for? Stop it.

[B]

I don't have that. I don't have that kind of strength.

[A]

I don't know. I didn't like that kid. Okay. Those kids that would get rough. It was my thing. But. But I try to remember, like, there's an element to creative work that is, like wrestling. It is, like, for fun. You're like, okay, this is hard. Maybe this even kind of hurts. But that's kind of what's fun about this. It's like doing a puzzle.

[B]

Something rewarding.

[A]

Yeah. There's something like just. You can kind of learn to enjoy it. There's also an element of it that you might not enjoy in the moment. But I think it's called Type two fun, which is like, you're doing a thing that actually brings you so much joy after. And so sometimes, like a run, sometimes there's things I like about actually running. But a lot of the benefit is after it's after, I feel a lot better. You know what I mean? And so there's a lot of ways that those things are at play as you create stuff. Sometimes you are feeling the flow and enjoying it as you're doing it. That also happens. But the only thing I wanted to qualify was, I think, the way that it can become. And you don't ever know. You don't have a constant brain scan of. Is this the Right. Energy that I'm in, or is this the right. You don't know. But I think that the. One of the energies that maybe shouldn't be part of the process and the ideal is when you have the editor and the creator firing at the same time, trying to fight in real time. And you sit down, you're drawing, you're making something, and your editor is saying, this is shit. This is not going to work like that. That negativity actually.

[B]

Garbage. Yeah.

[A]

I don't think that's part of the process. I think the ideal is separating that out. I'm not the first person to say this. It's a common thing, but it's a. I think it's worth talking about because you have to figure out, how do I create the environment in which I can separate those out? It can be. I like what Austin Kleon talks about where it's like, can be two different desks. You know, you can. I like the idea of externalizing. Trying to externalize your mind. Be like, okay, I want to get to this side of my brain that's over there. That's that part of the room I.

[B]

Can'T physically separate myself. I need to make an actual space for it. Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, I think that's where that negativity may maybe isn't so productive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But even then, sometimes it's just part of pushing through that. So it's. I think it's. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's all part of it. The other piece that I wanted to mention was. I've mentioned this on a recent episode where it's kind of like putting in a USB stick where you have to try it both ways. You do it the right way and it's resisting, and you're like, that's not right. And then you flip it the other way, and then you feel the real resistance. You're like, oh, that. That early resistance, which actually. The right way, actually. And so I think for me, it's like, that's creativity for me. I also have to do two different versions of something, and because my brain is criticizing it, it's like, well, that's not right. That's not right. Well, I won't know. Like, I did a poster recently where I did a version that was flat color, and then I did a version that was watercolor, and I had to do both because while I was creating it, that editor would not shut up. They're like, oh, this is not it. I'm like, okay, maybe it's not it. All Right. I'm gonna do both. Try a different one second. And it's so much easier to decide after rather than during. And it's a way of dealing with that critic of saying, like, hey, it's cool. Yeah, you might be right. It. Look. But we're gonna do both versions, okay?

[B]

We'll feel it out.

[A]

Yeah, we'll feel it out after it's done. Because what it wants to do really is to stop you from doing it. And I think it's probably like a survival mechanism, is trying to say what you're doing might make you ostracized from the community.

[B]

Oh, this is gonna be bad. This is. This is your worst piece yet. Don't put this out.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Its goal, I think, is trying to stop you. And you can kind of. I think you can settle it down a little bit by being like, look, we might not even release it, or we'll. We're gonna do a couple versions of it, you know, it'll be okay.

[B]

I think that's the beauty of sketchbooks too. Like, where those really come in, where you can really just throw some crap on a page and try out a bunch of ideas. Do you know who Brandon Camp is?

[A]

I know that name, but I can't place it.

[B]

He does, like, the really cool process where he just lays down the color blocks first and then he puts lines in on top. And it's always. It always creates like a really cool, like, retro 1950s, 1960s art style. Yeah. Uh, and it just in, like, his process is like, really a great way for me to, like, get it started sometimes where it's just like, I'm not even gonna worry about this looking amazing. I'm just gonna throw some colors down. We're gonna put some lines on top and make some fun looking little birds or whatever, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I absolutely think you're correct. Continue.

[B]

Sorry, it's. No, I just. I just thought that was like. Like that in the sketchbook element. Like, I was just stuck on, like, oh, what should I draw today? What should I draw? And I, like, have a little Zelda thing on my desk. And I was like, I'll just draw a triforce right now. Like, simple, easy, a few triangles, you.

[A]

Know, you can't go wrong with the triforce. Anyway, that's just a good move.

[B]

And that was great. And I felt good about it. And I was like, all right, peace. Time to go to work. You know, like, that was. That was the start of the day for me.

[A]

Yeah, dude, I. And, you know, I feel like there's so much to take away from stories. I feel like it's the way that we think about and move through the world. And I think one of the elements that doesn't get talked about a lot that is so essential to how to move through life is that the character. I. I've noticed that we feel tension when we are consuming a story. Right. That's. Everybody knows that that's part of this, but that usually gets attributed to the conflict. Right. I actually think that the tension is something else. And if you go watch. Next time you go watch a movie or you're reading a book or something, I think the tension is primarily that, you know, that the character is wrong, the main character is wrong. They're trying to do something, you know, from the start. This is not going to help you the way that you think it's going.

[B]

To the dramatic irony.

[A]

Right. And. And so you have a conflict in you. Like, if you like the character, you want them to succeed because you're, like, rooting for them. But you also are like, you don't need to be famous. You don't need the girl. You don't need, you know, whatever it is, you just know it. And so I think that's where the tension comes from. However, I think the takeaway for us is that the way they go about figuring out that it's wrong is the right way. It's not by thinking about it. If that was the movie, you would turn it off.

[B]

So boring.

[A]

Should I go for the girl or not? I know you're turning that off. You almost turned the podcast off because you're like, dude, I can't listen to this guy think you. The what? And it's just like the usb. You have to try it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you. You have to make a best guess, this is what I. Maybe this is going to get after what I need. And then you go for it. And then as you're in the middle of the thick of the conflict and the obstacle, then you start being like, oh, this is not what I need this. You know? And so. And a lot of times doing a piece of work is like that feeling of, okay, I got what I wanted, but I realized it's not what I needed, and now I need to do it differently. And so I'm a big believer in that voice. Quiet it by saying, yeah, we're gonna do this anyway. Okay. And we're going there whether you like it or not. And we're gonna learn after we finish or after we put it out. Like, I think all of that is Kind of essential.

[B]

I love that. That's huge. Yeah. And that's. Yeah, I think to like, I guess put an answer or a button on the end of this. It does just feel like you just gotta. You just gotta try.

[A]

Yeah, just gotta.

[B]

Just gotta try it. Just put it out there and then you'll learn whether or not that's the way you want to go. And then you'll make like. Even if it's something you put out, that's garbage. You'll figure out through that process. Probably like, oh, okay. There was this element that I really enjoyed here and I think actually I see a pathway that's going to kind of make. Make more sense for me or be more fun.

[A]

Absolutely enjoyable. And if there's one, and there is only one good thing about the algorithm, it's that if the thing you make is absolutely terrible, no one's gonna see it. Even if it's great, no one's gonna. My friend probably won't see it. But if it's terrible, they really probably won't.

[B]

I love it. I love it.

[A]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Marshalls, where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshall's Hustle hard working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces. Because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop [e-mail].

[B]

Okay, so kind of. I mean, these all kind of flow into each other. At least I hope they do. So now that we kind of have talked about, like, all right, we're going to start time management. This is something that I think you and I both probably maybe have struggles with.

[A]

Yeah, I struggle with that.

[B]

I don't like schedules. Schedules are the worst. But they're also very good for me. I've realized this as I've gotten older, but advice for people with full schedules. You know, full time jobs, side gigs, parenting, spouse, kids, school, podcasts. You're doing just a million different projects at one time that want to begin. What's the best place to start? What have you found that really has helped you sort of make sure you're doing the things you need to do while also doing the other things you need to do.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great question. I always like to acknowledge that there are just so many different circumstances out there, including people that are caretaking, including people that are in chronic illness, people that have huge financial liabilities for whatever reason. And I think it feels irresponsible to say, no matter where you are, no matter who you are, you can always be creative. I don't really subscribe to that now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I do think that you have to be careful with the voice that says, I'm the exception. I can't be creative. Because like we said, that that editor would really rather you not do anything. Nothing out of the ordinary. Please. Because you might get thrown out of the community. That's really what, you know, that's. It's. It's worry. So you have to be careful with indulging that voice too much. Although there are exceptions to that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um. The only thing I would say, or the main thing I would say is that the worst possible scenario that you could be in as a creative person is that everything that you're doing, all of what you want to do as a creator, is monetized is your job. That's the worst possible scenario. And it happened to me. And it's a. And it was a privilege and a gift in a way, but it happened A couple of years ago. I realized I don't have anything that I'm cheating on my career with. And it's. It means that everything is a job. Everything is work. I got what I wanted, but it wasn't what I needed. I need to always have some creative work on the side that is making me want to wake up a little bit earlier, want to go to sleep a little bit later. If I don't have that, I don't have my creative impulse. And so for me, it's really important to remember, no matter who I am, where I am, there's always going to be the thing. And usually I think it's an important distinction to make. Usually the thing that I'm able to make money on is past its prime little sweet spot of 70, 30 mastery. Because I've really proven my mastery at it. Once you get there, that's when people are like, we'd love to pay you full time to do this thing that is just a little bit joyful for you.

[B]

I don't want to do it anymore. It's too late.

[A]

And it's, you know, I think It's. It's a. You can get really like for the podcast, doing 500 plus episodes of it. The reason I can do that, even though it is monetized, is because I've been able to be creative with how I play that instrument. I can think about, okay, this is our. This is the box that I'm creating within. I can do anything inside of here. Anything that's inside of creativity, basically, creative practice. And I have several sections and I. There's so many episodes that are really about life or, you know, about psychology or about. There's, you know, I've been able to find so many different pockets to keep it interesting, you know. Yeah.

[B]

You can choose what direction you want to. You want to go.

[A]

And that's not about time management. It's not about time management. But what. But I just thought it was interesting to say from the start. The ideal is that you net that you always would have a new little thing that really. Because when you have that, that's. To me, I have a strong feeling is deeply connected to dopamine, which, if you're a creative person, you might have a dopamine issue. And so dopamine is really. I don't. Look, I don't know. I only know the very basic crap about it, but I do know that it's about chasing. It's not about getting. And so if you don't ever. If you don't. When I didn't have that little thing that I wanted to do for no money, no one was asking me. I didn't have dopamine. And once I do have that, when I'm like, I know, okay, I'm doing this, but I know I want to go do that. This feels great. I can get through my day job so much easier. No matter what it is. Maybe it's being picture book artist or whatever, because I'm like, I'm going somewhere, baby. I'm going to get like. But if I'm not going anywhere and this is it, it doesn't matter what it is because I'm just like, isn't.

[B]

It exhausting to have to.

[A]

Oh, hell yeah.

[B]

To always have something you're like. Cause like, there's periods of time where I like same as you. Like, I haven't had that thing that I've always like. I've typically always had something that I'm excited about, that I'm learning about, that I'm moving towards, but there's been periods of time where I haven't had that. And it's like, it's like, oh, man. I was like, I don't even know what to do right now. Like, just. I'm just kind of just moving through life and not really, like, excited about this next thing that I'm doing. And, yeah, it is. It's annoying to realize you kind of always need something like that.

[A]

It is annoying.

[B]

It's. It's frustrating. But once you know it, like, maybe. Maybe there's like a process and how you discover the next thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just happened to me.

[A]

I think there's a couple things there. One is, I think it's important to lean into what Cal Newport calls seasonality, the seasonality of life. And so if I get into. If I. I try to be careful about not going into a season where I truly have no hyper fixations because I'm. It's so detrimental to everything else that I do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And so I do try to have practices. Like my buddy Andrew Nyer. He's a concept artist. He designs lights, and he added a little thing to his web page that's like, special interest, and they're just a little list of all the things that he's currently, like, super jazzed about. And that. That is a practice especially for creative people that struggle with object permanence, which I'm this kind of person where it's out of sight, out of mind. I can be so on fire for something and then forget it exists the next day. And it's so ridiculous. And so I. So having that little list, that's a key thing of, like, if I start having. I've. There have been times where I've had to do another practice, which is if I'm really hitting a wall, I will pause and say, when was the last moment in my life that felt like magic. When was the last one? And then I will. And there have been times where I thought, oh, it was a year ago, and it was this conversation. And I. Then I thought, all right, I'm going to pull out that thread. And then more than once, I can think of two specific times. It was a magical moment appeared, like, from doing that, which, you know, we could go into if you want.

[B]

Stop and ponder. You're like, what do I need? And then you just. Yeah, you go back in time and you just pull something.

[A]

When was the last time? And I think you have to be careful of that. There's two. Two things you could do there. One puts you where I was talking about, which is the potential of picking up the thread that. And that I do think is really important. What you don't want to do is be midlife crisis stepdad and be like, the last time I was on fire was high school, man, and your Uncle Rico, like, not. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about. Exactly. I'm not talking about that. Because there. Because, again, a lot of those things, whatever you were doing, the whole mat the flow cycle's gone. Like, you. You can't rekindle that. I'm talking about. Where's the thing that you dropped the thread. Right. You know, as you're picking it up. And there's been. At least. Like I said, there's been at least two that come to mind, but it's probably happened more than that where I've really hit a wall and then had to do a little bit of reflection of what did I. What was, like, happening, and then I just completely dropped the ball. I think that's really useful. And then on the seasonality front, it. If you really, really are hitting a wall, I feel like it's good to trust life a little bit if none of that works and say, okay, well, maybe it's time to do some enjoying of the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Instead of chasing, which. That's difficult for me, but there have been seasons when I feel like I had to do that.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a huge mindset shift, I feel like, to go from the chasing we've been talking about to, like, okay, breathe, reset, think about where I am right now and all the cool things that are, like, in front of me that I can do. It takes a pretty intentional approach. I feel like most times to switch to that.

[A]

It does. Yeah. And I. I can't. I can't live that long, honestly, in that. In that period. The other thing you can do, I think, is I try to have a discipline. I don't even know how we got here. Honestly, I don't remember what.

[B]

That's how this. How this goes. That's how this goes.

[A]

But organic. I try to have a discipline of. I mean, I do have one of the most disciplined areas of my life. It's so dumb is listening to new music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I. That was something. I am someone who is constantly, like, looking at the world and thinking, you know, if I'm looking at someone who. I'm about to be 40, looking at someone who's 50, that's a creator, and I. And I think, oh, I want to do what they're doing, or I don't want to do what they're doing or how did they get there?

[B]

That.

[A]

That sort of thing? I'm always thinking about that. One of the things I thought from probably my early 20s was, I don't. It's fine if. When people. If. If you don't mind this, it's fine. That's your path. But I knew I don't want to be somebody in my 40s, only listen to music that I listened to in high school because music matters so much to me, and it brings me so much dopamine, you know, it's all about that. And so I knew, like, the way that. And I watched people do that, and I thought, oh, the way that you do that is the reason you get. I think the reason you get super into music is because of an older brother situation. You might not have an older brother.

[B]

I do.

[A]

Right. Okay. You have this feeling of, I have to figure this out or I'm gonna be so lame. That's.

[B]

He's listening to all this cool stuff never heard before. For. I have to like this too.

[A]

I have to do it. And that. That. We forget that we forget that. The reason you got. I. When I heard Modest Mouse for the first time, I was like, this sounds ins. Like, this is weird. What is this?

[B]

He's got a lisp. Like, what's going on with this?

[A]

I was like, what is happening? And. And I didn't like it. I didn't like it. But it did make me curious because I thought, here's a guy, my buddy that showed it to me. He loves it. And I like this guy. This guy's cool.

[B]

Respect him.

[A]

Yeah, I respect him and that. So I think there's a. There's an authority thing, too, of, like, I try to give other people a little bit of authority of, like, at least to be curious about. And so that. That is a discipline that has helped me not fall too far out of those seasons, because I try to stay open and remember, you gotta have older brothers. If you don't, you are going to get. You're gonna get stuck in your ways because. And. And I think, again, it's like a cycle where you have to. You have to have periods where you're in the. If you're in that dry spell, you need to find your older brothers. You need to go get some education, open up friends. Yeah.

[B]

Hey, you're. You're my older brother now.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Give me some music recommendations.

[A]

You're now my older brother. And it's anything, right? It can be anything. Find someone that you respect, that you feel like. Knows a little bit more than you in this area. And you got to have an open season where, like, I'm soaking stuff up, even though I probably don't like it at first. That's really, really essential. The only thing, and this is what everything in creativity, I think, is a. Has a seasonal element. It has a pulsings, like, swaying from left brain to right brain. It. It has this. It's cyclical. So you have to have that open season. And then guess what, though, if you stay there, you can't make anything because you have to go to the other season and say, you know what? I actually know something. I've got something to say.

[B]

Now that I've formed an opinion on this.

[A]

That's it. And then you show you what I think about it, then you're like, oh, this is what we should do. Like, oh, but you can't stay there either.

[B]

Yeah. I have a friend who, you know, I grew up with in Ohio, My, like, earliest childhood friend.

[A]

You live in Ohio?

[B]

I live in Tennessee now, but I lived in Ohio for, like, nine years. Yeah, I've been listening to the Right side Out series, actually, that you get. You got you plug a few times. Very, very good. Great job.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And I just listened to the third episode where you guys talked about Kings island, and I was like, king. That was. That was our stomping ground. That's where we spent a lot of time.

[A]

Where you are from? Cincinnati?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Cincy. Mason. Mason, Ohio.

[A]

Mason. My buddy Andrew Nyer lives near there. I'm not gonna put his address on.

[B]

Here, but love that place.

[A]

The. Are you a Y fan?

[B]

A Y fan?

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

Oh, your band. The music.

[A]

Sorry, the band. I didn't know they were from Cincinnati. Yeah, so cool. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So cool. No, yeah, we had a few bands, a few high school bands also, that, like, came up that I still listen to, and Lou was one of them. I don't know if you've heard of those guys, but they. They played in our high school.

[A]

And who is it?

[B]

And Lou.

[A]

I don't think I have.

[B]

Really. Cool.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Kind of like the same time, like, I've discovered Modest Mouse and a few of those other bands.

[A]

I was like, oh, 2000s. Like that kind of.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, dude. It was huge.

[A]

A great era.

[B]

I forget where I was going with that.

[A]

You were talking about. Sorry, I interrupted you a couple times. I'm very unmasked right now, and that's because you've asked good questions, so I'm like, out of the box. You were talking about growing up in Ohio, and it was in Relationship.

[B]

My best friend is. He's my source for all music inspiration. So he and I still text a ton and I'll share some stuff that I hear. But typically, anything new he knows about and I'm like, hey, I don't know if you do this or not, but on Spotify, which I have some qualms now about Spotify. But you can create your little shared playlist. Yes. Where you hear music they're listening to and you hear music that.

[A]

Yeah, like a blend playlist.

[B]

So cool.

[A]

Yeah, I do that. Yeah.

[B]

I connect with him all the time on that stuff.

[A]

That's awesome. Yeah, I think, I think it's really key. I think, and it's a, I do think the discipline aspect of it is knowing that at the start you're not gonna like it like that. That is the key. Acquired taste is such an essential piece to it.

[B]

I think just push play on the car ride and just don't skip any music. Just listen all the way down.

[A]

Good for you. Just eat it.

[B]

Good for you. Yeah, man, do I feel that right now with a four year old who, who has his own opinions on eat it. You can't eat pizza every night, brother.

[A]

I know, it's, man. I know. I want to too.

[B]

Yeah, dude, Speaking of, this is gnarly. Like, literally last night he was saying he wasn't feeling good. We're like, okay, whatever. End of the day, he was laying in our bed and he just threw up all on our bed. Pizza all in our bed. I'm like, no, not Papa John's.

[A]

Oh, Papa John's. I, I that honestly, I became whatever the phobia is of puking. I got it when my kids were little because when they're, especially when they start going to preschool, we have three, we have three kids and they were just like cycling through it, like, over.

[B]

So great.

[A]

I started to get to this point where, like, if someone's like, my stomach doesn't hurt, I'm like, no, like, I'm not going to sleep for days. Like, this is going to. Yeah.

[B]

Thankfully, I think he's through it. He's happy as can be right now. But yeah, last night was, it was an experience for sure. Had to go to Target, buy some new pillows and like, this is.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

All right, speaking of barf, let's talk about consistency.

[A]

Okay. Consistent barfing.

[B]

Consistent barfing, please. If you are experiencing that, call a doctor. Please do. Is consistency all it's cracked up to be? I feel like everyone's like, oh, you got to Be consistent. You got to just do this every single day. You got to do it. Yeah. How do you feel about that?

[A]

Okay, I'll say two things. I'm. I always say two things. That's the. All my. It's a bright eyes thing. All my thoughts come in pairs. That's. That's the lyric. It's so true. But I lost my train of thought because I started.

[B]

Bright eyes.

[A]

Consistency. Yeah. I would love to say. I'd love, love to be contrarian on this and be like, dude, forget it. But I'm pretty hardcore about consistency. And the reason why I wish that I wasn't is because. And I did a whole episode about this. I wish I knew what number it was. I don't. I can.

[B]

You don't have them all memorized.

[A]

I don't, but I know it was in the past 10 episodes. It was about creative habits. So that's in the title, and it's why. Creative habits. Creative people have to do habits differently. And I have a theory of how. And it's Some of it's from, like, consuming a lot of stuff about ADHD and realizing that. And then just from my own experience, I don't. The conventional wisdom of habit says if you do this thing long enough, it will become automatic. But here's the thing. I've been brushing my teeth every day for years. It's not automatic. When I'm doing. I'm not on autopilot. I brush my teeth every day, obviously twice a day. Okay. For those dentists listening. And I. It. I am not on autopilot at all. I am fully 100. I'm never more conscious than when I'm doing about it. I'm like, dude, this is. I hate this.

[B]

So the longest two minutes of my life.

[A]

And so I'm. I'm always. When I'm brushing my teeth, I'm walking around the house because I can't. I can't.

[B]

Same.

[A]

How could I do that?

[B]

I'm prepping for the morning. I'm picking up my, like, clothes I'm going to wear.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I'm going somewhere else. And I'm like, oh, I need to spit now. But I still. I'm, like, halfway across the house.

[A]

And I'm like, okay, got to make it back. It's so true. And so I know that habit science doesn't work for me. However, I also know that's at odds with the fact that most of the good things in my life have been something that I've been consistent at 100%. So what I realized is the metaphor I say in that episode is I don't have an automatic brain. I don't have an automatic car of a brain. I have a manual brain. There is no automatic transmission. There's no amount of time where I'm going to do this, where it's automatic and I don't have to think about it anymore. I run a few times a week. I try to do it every other day. And the only way I've learned to do it is the opposite of what they tell you. They tell you do it the same, do the same thing the same way and it'll become automatic. Doesn't happen. I have to do, I can do the same thing, but I have to do it a different way. I have to change the path. I have to keep the playlist fresh. I gotta keep my shoes, I gotta change shoes. I gotta check. I gotta do all kinds of little things that make it fun and novel. And if I don't, I can't do it. And so I hate this because it's hard. It's really hard. If you're a creative person, consistency is probably gonna be the hardest thing for you. And yet I don't think there's a way around it. I often don't give enough credit to the daily drawing project I did back in 2011 where I was doing a new character every weekday for a year. I, I give credit to that for like helping me flesh out my style and developing, you know, one of my, my most best selling book and all that. So I do give it some credit. But the thing that I think it did that's just as valuable is it just taught me how to be consistent. And it was. And the thing that was essential about this, and they do talk about this in the habit science books, is it was a very light lift. It was like I'm drawing a character that I could, I could Finish this in 30 minutes tops. Or like, I could finish it. I, I could do it maybe quicker than that. Some of them were quicker than that. And so there was never an excuse not to do it. I could do it. I could find a way to do it.

[B]

10 minutes.

[A]

10 minutes. And if I want to take two hours, I can take two hours.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But I knew I could get it done. And it was a little bit, it was different enough every day. I think after doing that for a year, I could do, I could add another layer. So I'm like, okay, well, that worked well. What if I just like add writing to that? What if I add like these other Things until now. I've been doing the show for 10 years, and that's an elaborate creative habit. It's like, there's so long process. Yeah. There's so many pieces to it. And so I think learning that muscle and. And also, like, you can flip it. I think it's really essential to figure out how to want to embrace something. Not just because you have to eat it because it's good for you. That's not going to work that long. You got to do.

[B]

All the psychologists say that is not what you should tell your kids.

[A]

Exactly. It's not going to work. And so what you have to do is you have to figure out, like, yeah, consistency matters. But a big part of that is. That's the way I want to live my life is making stuff. I like this quote from my buddy who's an illustrator named Will Bryant, and he said, I make stuff because if I don't, I get sad. It's that simple.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm happier if I'm consistently creative. And so it's not. It's not even a thing you have to do. It's a thing that you. You'll be better off if you're making every day, I think.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good word. And that. I feel like that applies to running and all kinds of other stuff we talked about, too. Like, my day is much, much better if I've run.

[A]

That's why I run.

[B]

I've gone through a whole week where I know I've hit at least my three or four runs. I want to get in. And especially if I get to run with a friend, like, on the weekend. Like, that's. That's huge for me.

[A]

Yeah, that's great.

[B]

I.

[A]

And it's the only reason I run. It's. The only reason I've been able to run is because I'm just so much happier when I'm. Yeah, I'm.

[B]

The endorphins. Yeah, you need it.

[A]

And if I go three days without running, I'll look, I'll be so grouchy and depressed, and I'm like, what is wrong with me? What? I was like, oh, I haven't run.

[B]

It's the worst. We are. We are so, like, predictable. But you think we're. We think we're not. We're like, oh, my. Very complex. It's like, no, I just haven't run. It's like, okay, so true. And I feel like going back to your year practice. I think what's one thing that I thought of when you were saying that is because you've done a. A full year of a consistent practice of anything. You. You know how to probably adapt throughout the year, and you kind of know what it feels like now. It's like, okay, there were times where I did not want to do it, and then there were times where I really enjoyed it. And you can almost anticipate what that's going to feel like if you continue to be consistent or do the next thing that requires a consistent practice. So that's cool. That's.

[A]

Yep. And, you know, there were a lot of little moments in there where it was like, that's where I started to learn digitally, to digitally draw. And it happened from. I. I had. There were certain rules. I was like, okay, these are the four colors I can use. It has to have a white background. I was doing four colors because I knew and I was gonna. Or it wasn't four colors. Four color schemes. They were in, like, they all had black, and each one was like a dark gray. The first one was like blue and yellow the second, but they were like selected colors and they went on a cycle. And the reason I did that was because I thought I am. Yes, that. And I thought we might screen print these. So I need. They need to be like, minimal color. And so this is the size they have to be. They have to be white background. Just a few things like that. But then everything else is up for grabs. And so I, halfway through, I thought I could use this to help teach myself how to draw digitally to some degree. And so I switched. And so if you go look at the project and you know that you'll see it. You can see that when it happens.

[B]

He was here.

[A]

Yeah. Boop. That's it.

[B]

There's digital.

[A]

Yep. And that one sucks. But a few later, something's happening. But. But, yeah, that. So that's an example of injecting some of that novelty. And there's a million ways that I've done that with the podcast over the years, even though I've tried to maintain the right types of consistency.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that it doesn't derail the thing or throw anybody off. I've tried to make it kind of imperceptive, and I think I've done a decent job of that. If you grow. Yeah. If you listen to it now versus seven years ago, you're going to hear. So it's going to be so. I think, so different. But hopefully it was just a little bit at a time.

[B]

There's a through line.

[A]

Yeah. And there is a through line.

[B]

We Already talked about running, podcasting a lot. So really the last two other hobbies and like the guilt around I. I not doing them and in pursuit sort of of the one that you really need to be consistent with. So we talked about video games and you know, you, you know, you want to get better at this thing that you really.

[A]

I know I want to get better at video games. That's the main thing. Yeah.

[B]

For. And for my instance, it's like, yeah, I want to get better at illustration. I want to set aside time to practice that. But sometimes I just want to, I don't want to do that. You know, like the end of the day, my kids are down asleep. Like my wife's reading her book and it's like, I want to play video games. That just sounds like a good, good time right now. I don't want to doodle. So how do you kind of navigate that sort of. Maybe you don't feel guilt around that. I tend to sometimes. I'm like, I could be using my time better here. Yeah, I really should be doing this, but I'd rather just relax right now.

[A]

Yeah. I think that part of that's like energy management. When I had more full time work early on, when I was making that daily drawing project, I would do it at the start of the day. I'd wake up a little bit early and do it that.

[B]

So that I'm doing right now.

[A]

It's done. I did it that day. And then I don't have to weigh it up. When I'm at my lowest point of willpower, that's really difficult. Right. Because it just drains throughout the day. Like, you know, the research says, like, you just have so much less willpower every decision you make. It's one of the reasons why I try to dress pretty consistently. And I, you know, I'm not the first to do that, but it's that thing of every decision you make is like another withdrawal. Yeah. From the, from the willpower thing. And it's not. I don't want to be a super downer here, but I didn't play video games for probably a decade. Yeah. It's not, I don't know if that's great news, but I didn't really have any hobbies for about a decade and that was really about. From about age 20 to 30. I was really like locked in on I. And part of that was, part of that came from having kids really early too, is that I had, I had kids and I had to make money. And that was like 90% of my time. And so I feel this, I just didn't have any other bandwidth and I, and I think, I think that was fine. And then in about, I think with Breath of the wild 2017, ish, that's when I started playing video games again.

[B]

Watershed moment.

[A]

It was, it was. And so I still try to keep it. One way that I keep that in check is I only play one video game at a time. So I try and I try to move through it and I don't want to like pick up a bunch and if I really don't like it, I'll get rid of it and I won't play it anymore. But I think that helps too is that like, I don't, I have a little bit of boundaries around those sorts of things. That can be all my time. The bigger time eater for probably most people is scrolling on your phone. That one is something I would definitely suggest.

[B]

Don't do it.

[A]

Don't do it. Yeah, just don't do it.

[B]

Just don't.

[A]

It's such a waste of time. It's such a waste of time. I, There have been lots of seasons where I've deleted the more short form video stuff like off my phone. I, I currently have it. I don't know. I, there's not much redeeming.

[B]

There's actually, yeah, desktop is okay sometimes for me, but, but like it's still this hard balance of like, well, I need to get it for my job. I need to jump on and do like one thing. I gotta. And then, then it just sits there and then you find yourself back in that habit of just like, you know where it is on your phone. I try to like hide it in like my app library. So it's not as easy.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

I swipe there immediately and just, I find where it is and it's, it doesn't stop me.

[A]

So I, you know, I, I, I think that I don't really want to be the person that's like, it's unacceptable. There are elements of it that I do genuinely like, but yeah, most of it is pretty, pretty irredeemable.

[B]

No, it really, it really is.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

If you, if you, if you can connect in any other way, whether it's like a newsletter or even substack, I feel like is a little bit healthier in terms of social media, even though it still is becoming a lot like Twitter in some ways with their feeds. But I think it's a better, better situation.

[A]

Yeah. I think the other thing that comes to mind is I talk a lot about positive psychology. Not positive thinking. Positive psychology, which is just thinking of yourself as more or less a good thing at the bottom layers and words working with that. I talk a lot about that because that's. That was such a huge shift for me in my creative journey and in my life. One thing I think that gets misunderstood about that is that it doesn't mean whatever you do or whatever you want to do is good, but it does mean that there's probably whatever part of you is wanting that thinks it's adaptive, thinks that this is going to help. And it's the same thing. The part of you that wants to scroll is not bad. It's just. It's been hijacked. It's taken a part of you that is an adaptive thing that's looking for a particular nature. Chemicals. Yeah. Something the right kind of balance. And your brain knows, like, we need that stuff. And this is a never ending loop of that. Let's go, let's help. Let's get as much as we can. And so it's not. It's the same with sugar, right? It's like we didn't evolve to be around this much sugar. And so it's not bad that you want sugar. It's actually good. It's. That's a good impulse. You like, you need that kind of sustenance. And when you found it in the wild, you know, thousands of years ago, you should eat all of it because there's not that much of it. So it's not a bad impulse.

[B]

But not today.

[A]

But it's. Yeah. Today we live in an environment that's really hijacked our whole system. And so you have to be. You have to take it differently. The reason I say that is because it's not going to sound as good to read a book book. But you. There are. There's a lot of good reasons to. To try to curb that impulse so much better. Channel it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, man. I've been putting my phone across the room on like a stand. And then we only have our books next to our nightstand.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

So. So I'm reading East of Eden right now.

[A]

Dude. Maybe my favorite book.

[B]

Unreal. Because like, Grapes of Wrath was something we were like required to read.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, this is doo doo. I don't want to read this.

[A]

It's so depressing though too. I didn't finish Grapes Wrath. I think I read like half of it. I enjoyed. The language is beautiful. There's a lot of stuff that's good, but it is so Depressing. Yeah.

[B]

But to know that that's the Steinbeck that you were, like, supposed to read and then this other Steinbeck existed, you're like, why? Why was this not the one that we were supposed to read? This is so good.

[A]

It's so good. Like I said, I think it might be my favorite book. It's kind of. I honestly feel like the only the. I always warn people the beginning is like, setting the scene in a way that I don't. I. That's not my flavor. I don't like when you're getting overly descriptive about everything. If you get past that, it's like watching a movie. It's literally. You're just. Literally. It's. The way it comes to life is.

[B]

I love his little asides, you know, in between chapters where he just talks about life and nature. And you're like, whoa, that was poetic. That was. Yes.

[A]

There's some. It's deeply, like, philosophical, and it's. It's a phenomenal book.

[B]

Speaking of books, we'll close out there. Actually, you. You seem to be somebody who likes reading a lot. Is there anything you'd recommend? People just starting out that, like. Oh, this one really, like, had a huge impact on me and helped me in my creative practice?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do.

[A]

Do you maybe if you direct that more specifically? Because I read a few different types of books and I like the ones that come to mind are more. Yeah. What were you gonna say?

[B]

So. So you had. You. You know, I read Atomic Habits. I think I had. Had the. I think I'd had the book a while ago, kind of bounced off of it. And then you had mentioned it again, and I was like, oh. I was like, I'll read that. And yeah, I think I did the audiobook. And this time it really came. It came around more clearly for me, and I really picked up a lot of what he was talking about. Just like, making things that you want to do much more simple, like, don't make your end goal be this giant task. Just make it this, like, little small thing that points you towards that thing you want toward you, like that identity that you want to have or whatever. And that was huge. That was a big mindset shift for me. So I guess more in that territory, books in that space that have, like, really been, like, eye opening for you or helped helped you think more about your creative practice.

[A]

I think recently I just had the author on Angus Fletcher, Primal Intelligence. That book's one of the best books I've ever read in that vein. I think it's. He's. Probably the most brilliant person I've met. I feel like that's. That's true. When you. I've hung out with him a couple times and I'm always just like, whoa, this guy's. This guy's like on another level.

[B]

He's so smart.

[A]

He's so smart. That book is just like full of so many brilliant. The. The thing I love about his work is that he is. Everything he's talking about is outside of the Zeitgeist. It's the things that are missing. They're the things that you've never heard someone say this before and he's gravitating towards that. So it's just littered with so much stuff that is feel so true and also so novel and. But very essential. And also is a different take on my favorite topic, which is storytelling or story. And really, even more than that, that's the thing I think I'm not always able to articulate is the reason I'm so obsessed with story is I do love consuming stories. I do love that. But the reason I'm obsessed with it is because I think it's how we understand life. It's not about really consuming stories. It's about living life and living it in a way that is meaningful. And I need to see, you know, the. The. The brain scientists call it questing. I need to be. I need to see a connection between my external environment and what I'm going through or what I'm moving through or who I'm supposed to be. I need all of that. And so it's a good take on that. Another version of that. I highly recommend the Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. If you like the Hero's Journey and that you're attracted to story thinking, I think that's a really good place to start. I don't recommend starting with Joseph Campbell. I don't that. I've read the Hero of A Thousand Faces and I loved it. But it's dense and if you're not already pretty familiar with a lot of this stuff, even like Carl Jung and that kind of stuff, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it's a.

[A]

It's a lot to like. You need some kind of secondary text to enter into that. But I feel like that those things are the most essential. If you're thinking about, like, marketing stuff. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but. Terrible name because I don't think it gets at how powerful the idea is. But it's called growth hacker marketing. Now, at the time, it probably really sold some books.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But it didn't age very well. And it's only. It sounds like it's only for a certain crowd, but it's by Ryan Holiday. Ryan Holiday. And it's just one of the. Me too. And I. I mean, I think he's a brilliant dude, really great writer, and I love that book. It's like, it's. It really gets at. If you're gonna put something out in the world and you're doing so for anybody else, it gets into finding that product market fit finding. Like, how do you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Keep the consumer in mind in a way that you don't lose your taste.

[B]

And your perspective yourself.

[A]

It's a really small book and I highly recommend it.

[B]

I love small books.

[A]

Me too, dude. I love small books.

[B]

You finish it. You're like, yes, another book I achieved.

[A]

Yeah. I love it.

[B]

I'm such a reader. Yes. Well, cool, man. Thank you so much again for your time.

[A]

Thanks for doing this.

[B]

It was awesome.

[A]

You did. Your questions are great.

[B]

I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Before we close out, I want to shoot some rapid fire. Yeah, let's go away. So, physical or digital illustration?

[A]

Physical.

[B]

I know that's a hard one.

[A]

I'm sorry. It has to be physical.

[B]

Favorite illustration utensil or tool?

[A]

Pencil.

[B]

Pencil.

[A]

I had the black wing. Like, this is like. It's soft and it creates dark line. And you. I. The way I draw, I have this, like little bump on my finger because I draw so intensely. I'm like. So it's just. I love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Huge fan.

[B]

Love that. Favorite project you've gotten to work on so far.

[A]

That's a tough one. I. I think I'd have to probably say invisible things, but right side out is up there for sure. And yeah, this one right here. That guy right here, man. I. That's one of my favorites. And we're doing some other stuff with invisible things that we haven't fully announced. And I would say they're definitely up there. Then the one we're currently in the middle of, I have very, very high hopes for. So I'm excited.

[B]

Excited for you. Very cool. Thanks. Favorite video game. Yeah, sorry.

[A]

You know, I. I think all time I've gotta have. I've gotta say the Zelda franchise. I have to say, like, just the whole. My favorite one is a link to the past because, like, invisible things, you're going into an invisible world, another realm that's like my. I'm just so obsessed with that. So I'm say link. Where am I? Yes, man.

[B]

So nostalgic. Too. Yeah, that's. That's where I think Zelda really, really kicked off. I felt like that's really, like it really, really started.

[A]

Oh yeah. Agree 100%. Favorite console then right now it's the PS5. I. I'm like, I, you know Nintendo, I super respect their dedication to novelty. They've gotten weirder over time. Like if you think about like Mario Odyssey that a lot of these games started getting weirder and weirder, I very much respect it. But I've gone the other way in terms of I love Elden Ring because it's so difficult and all the Nintendo games have gotten progressively easier, a little.

[B]

Bit easier, you know.

[A]

And so yeah, I think right now, I gotta say PS5.

[B]

Good. Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, PS5 has been a. It's been a fun console, but I feel like this, this console has seen less big hits, like less big releases. It's true. Like yeah, we've had some really, really cool third party stuff. Like I feel like Sony itself has not been putting out that's as much that have been like yeah, Astrobot is awesome.

[A]

I haven't played it, but I heard it's great. Yeah.

[B]

Check it out if you like platformers. Very good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Favorite 90s cartoon.

[A]

I probably are real monsters and you can see that in Invisible Things. It's definitely an inspiration. I loved anything. I still do love anything that has like a super never ending cast of characters. Is why I love X Men would be up there for 90s cartoon for the same reason. It's a great theme song. I just love. I mean even the theme song, it's just like 100 characters. I just love. Yes. I love all. Every time there's. There's a new mutant. I love when there was crossover Spider man, you know, like I love that. And that's why I liked Pokemon. And that's what Invisible Things is just kind of like a never ending character creation letter. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[B]

Good shout out.

[A]

I love those like group shots and a real monster and there are a bunch of monsters you never even get to know is like. I love that. Love that.

[B]

Yeah. And then last but certainly not least.

[A]

Favorite movie, Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind. I think I have to say I love that movie. I'm so my in a Club High is Spirited Away. Both of which, wow. I think get at the heart of creativity which is the unconscious, the dream state, this like generative inner self. I love dreams because they, I mean I love them for so many reasons. But one of the reasons is they're just the proof of your creative potential. Instantaneously, you create characters, setting, plot, conflict. I mean, you're doing it. You're literally.

[B]

While you're unconscious, while you're asleep.

[A]

You're doing it while you're asleep, man. You're. You're creative in your sleep and so.

[B]

Made to do that.

[A]

Yeah, dude, I love it. And I. And I love both of those movies. Capture what it feels like to dream, to be fully lost in that feel.

[B]

Spirited Away. I remember when that came out, that was the first time I had seen a Miyazaki film.

[A]

It was the first one I saw too.

[B]

And I was just like, what? I was like, what is this? And it's getting awards like, what? What is this? And then my whole world was opened up after that.

[A]

So it's the same. It's same thing with Modest Mouse. When I was working at the movie theater at the time and I had a friend that's like, you got to watch this. And I just. There was. I hadn't watched anything anime. I didn't really know anything about this world. And I just was like, I don't think it's for me. And then one day, I had a sick day when I was in college and it was on HBO or something, and I was like, all right, whatever, I'll watch. And I was never the same.

[B]

It was a time before dude.

[A]

It was after. Oh, man. I just. I love that. I. I love that movie too. Because I'm such a nerd about story. I love story structure. I. I just like, I'm in a. I've been in a good decade of a season where I've been really into that, and it so breaks all of those rules. There's elements of it that are Heroes Journey esque, heroines, Journey, Ask to. There's some. There's a lot of those stuff at play. But Miyazaki is just. He seems like so dedicated to the subconscious, like letting it do its thing. And so you just. I love that it makes me cry. And I'm like, why am I crying? What's happening? I like, what is supposed to be.

[B]

A happy movie, I think.

[A]

Yeah, just like. But it's just gonna make any. Like the plot points are like, what? He's a river. Well, I don't. What does it mean? I don't know. Why is this, you know, like that? So I love that. I just love.

[B]

Yeah, Love.

[A]

Love.

[B]

So good. Well, that's all I had. Those are all the great questions. The rapid fire questions ahead. Thank you again so much. For having me on. Yeah, I'll let you close it out. I don't know what to say.

[A]

That's fine. Thanks for doing this. Where can people find your journey?

[B]

Yeah, so I have a little Instagram page and I'm forming one maybe on substack called Stanky Art.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Stanky.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

T A N K Y art. And I'm just throwing some crappy doodles up on there and just trying the. Trying the process out, seeing how it goes.

[A]

Nice, man. Well, thanks for doing this. This was. This was great.

[B]

It was awesome. Thank you. Foreign.

[A]

I'm back with our call to adventure. Thanks to Jake. First, I have to say thank you for taking the time and doing such a great job. It was a blast chatting with you. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode and you want to throw your name into the ring for doing one of these style, ask Dr. Pipa, ask Dr. Pipa, Ask Dr. Pizza episodes, send me an email with some questions that you'd want to consider chatting about and we'll let you know if it's a good fit. You can email me at [e-mail] thanks to Jake. Here's your CTA. Your call to adventure this week. It's called name your older brother. It's. We talked about this in the episode. Everybody needs an older brother or an older sister, an older person who you can give a little authority to, who you can trust, maybe know something you don't know and taste some of the stuff that they're into, even if on first blush it's not doing it for you. I think that acquired taste process is something that. I think the reason why a lot of people in later in life lose their creativity is because their taste expires. And it's because they forgot that what got them into this was opening up, admitting you didn't know. And then, yeah, going into a season where you do know something and you do have an opinion, you do have a point of view, and you execute on that. But then you got to open back up. And so this is an experiment, an exercise just to think about who is my older brother right now, who. Where am I finding new stuff, where am I giving some authority to? How am I having a discipline of trying new things and giving them enough time to grow on you. So for me, I still read Pitchfork.com for some music recommendations. I also have some other outlets. But I. And I have a way of relating to them. I don't really agree with them on a ton of stuff, but if they give, if they give an album, best new music and they rate it over like an 8.8. I'm going to listen to it and most of the time I don't like it but I'm going to listen to it a couple times and that's one of the ways that I've kept my taste evolving. And then I also moved out of Pitchfork.com and I have some other places where I find new music too. But you gotta have, you gotta know where those places are. And it's not just music. It could be movies, it could be the medium that you create within. I think it's really important to keep your ear to the ground when finding new music and finding new art to be into. All right, that's it. Thank you for listening. Massive thanks to Sophie Miller for just I'm just thinking about the mistakes I've made, not in life, but those two just in trying to record this in bit. Thanks to Sophie Miller for being an editor and producer on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones for the sound design, audio edits, animation, video stuff. Connor Jones of pinning Beautiful. Did I say that? That's who does it. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack. Until we speak again, stay pepped up, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

What does it mean to live for the Common good? Introducing the Garrison Institute presents the Common Good, the brand new podcast from the Garrison Institute, a leading not for profit organization exploring the intersection of contemplation and engaged action in the world. Hosted by me, Jonathan F.P. rose, a co founder of the Garrison Institute, the series dives into the threads that bind us all. First, you'll discover the interdependence independent nature of life with environmental entrepreneur Paul Hawken and trailblazing plant intelligence researcher Monica Gagliano. Next, we unlock the mysteries of the mind with renowned psychiatrist Dan Siegel and Pulitzer Prize winning author Siddhartha Mukherjee. Finally, we experience compassion in action with social justice activist Conda Mason and environmental leader Bill McKibben. We invite you to listen, reflect and join us in acting for the Common good. Follow the Garrison Institute presents the Common Good on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you are listening now. Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry, market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our [e-mail] and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path handbooklet. And the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up y'. All.