531 - Risks that Land Big Jobs, Be Your Own Client & Find Your Sound with Composer Oli Julian

Summary

Episode Summary: Creative Pep Talk #531

“Risks that Land Big Jobs, Be Your Own Client & Find Your Sound with Composer Oli Julian”

Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guest: Oli Julian (composer for Sex Education, The Twits, and more)
Date: November 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intersection of creativity and discipline through the lens of acclaimed TV and film composer Oli Julian. Host Andy J Pizza and Oli discuss how to transition from client-driven work to personal projects, the importance of taste and sensibility, and the challenges of “becoming your own client” when crafting original work. Oli shares his unconventional creative journey—from aspiring rock star to advertising jingle writer to major composer—and offers practical advice on evolving your creative career by embracing risk, iterative growth, and authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Formative Moments & Realizations (05:53–10:26)

• Eternal Sunshine’s Impact: The film and its score by Jon Brion profoundly influenced both Andy and Oli, making them realize film music didn’t have to be traditionally orchestral.
  • Oli: “I realized that film scores didn’t need to be, like, all John Williams and orchestras... I just had a thought, oh, hang on a minute. I might be able to do this.” (06:08)
• The importance of seeing your sensibility reflected in the creative world and how that can unlock new possibilities.

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2. Early Dreams, Detours, and Rediscovery (10:26–17:32)

• Musical Roots: Oli grew up wanting to be a rock star, playing in every band possible as a drummer. He learned to overdub instruments at home, gravitating toward “production” early.
  • Oli: "That was what made me think, 'Oh yeah, I’d like to actually be a musician or a performing artist of some kind.'" (12:00)
• Detour via University: He studied German and Spanish before pivoting back to music.
• Entry to Industry: Started as a studio runner, then landed a writing job in advertising (jingles), gradually moving into TV and film scoring.

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3. Interpreting Daydreams & Navigating Creative Careers (13:39–21:15)

• Career Guidance and Serendipity: An old school careers test predicted “music, media and marketing”—matched perfectly with his path.
• Incrementalism: Andy draws a parallel with “The Lincoln Protocol”—careers often evolve one step at a time, rather than from a grand vision.
  • Andy: "You just see a little bit further over the creative hill… That looks interesting over there, I’ll go there." (21:15)

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4. Artist vs. Craftsman: Building A Versatile Practice (22:26–30:39)

• Oli sees himself as a craftsman who has learned to deliver consistently for clients, but also seeks “bigger” projects each time.
  • Oli: "I'm very much, you know, if you want me to build you a table, I'll make you a table…and I'll do it well, and you'll like the table." (22:26)
  • Contrasts his incremental journey with “artist-first” composers who bring an established identity.

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5. Bridging Client Work and Authorship—Becoming Your Own Client (30:39–34:44)

• Transitioning to Authorship: Both discuss the difficulty of shifting from client-driven to self-driven work.
  • Andy: “Finding authorship in my own side projects... got me better jobs.”
• Creating Your Own Opportunities: Oli wants more work to reflect his own voice: "Having a bunch of stuff that is more emblematic of what you do." (33:40)
• Analogy to actors writing their own roles and creating new opportunities by showing their authentic voice.

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6. Overcoming Creative Blocks & Finding Your Sound (35:04–38:16)

• Emotional Catalysts: Oli’s divorce triggered a surge in deeply personal, if “bleak,” music.
  • Oli: "I was listening to the albums I was listening to 20 years ago… it was just a purely psychological thing." (42:27)
• Discusses the urge to avoid relying on turmoil as a creative trigger and finding sustainable ways to generate new ideas.

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7. Taste, Sensibility, and Personal Identity (40:24–45:00)

• Taste as a Compass: Andy and Oli talk about guilty pleasures, personal taste, and the difference between acquired and instinctual tastes.
  • Oli: “What music do you like? I really can't answer that question because I like a lot of music… I find it very reductive.” (44:19)
• Experience in advertising, and cross-genre work, enriched Oli’s palette but made personal identity more complex.

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8. Creative Risk-Taking and Signature Moves (46:01–51:30)

• Risks with Big Clients: Oli shares the story of bringing a saw (as an instrument) to a Netflix pitch:
  • Oli: “I made some noises [with the saw] and sampled them… They’d already heard it in context, but I just showed them on Zoom.” (47:00)
• Musical Identity: Each project features a unique instrumental or sonic “identifier”—from yodels to ska to saws—feeding into his compositional fingerprints.
  • Oli: “I just need to be able to point to something and go, that's what this project is.” (48:06)

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9. Album Process and Rhythmic DNA (51:30–53:09)

• For his solo album, Oli is exploring identity through his own voice, starting from rhythm (as a drummer/vocalist) rather than melody.
  • Oli: “My music is kind of rhythmic led, generally… that makes sense.” (52:59)

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10. Creativity Myths & Longevity (53:09–55:07)

• Myth: Creativity Runs Out: Oli admits to fearing he'd “run out” of original music—a fear that hasn't come true.
  • Oli: “I suppose I always thought that it might run out… but I haven’t got there yet.” (53:34)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Jon Brion’s Eternal Sunshine soundtrack] was a pivotal moment for me, realizing that this career path was possible with my skills, as it were." —Oli Julian (07:10)
• "Your expectations grow and your ambitions grow… every step, stage of the way, I've just seen a little bit further over the creative hill." —Oli Julian (20:45)
• "There's a craftsman approach and an artist approach… I'm the craftsman." —Oli Julian (22:26)
• "Writing is literally 5% of my job… there's so much other stuff to being a composer because you're essentially running your own business." —Oli Julian (26:09)
• "I always thought that it might run out… That might still be the case, but I haven't got there yet." —Oli Julian (53:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:53] Formative influence of Eternal Sunshine soundtrack
• [13:39] Interpreting daydreams & childhood ambitions vs. reality
• [17:32] Breaking into composing via ad jingles
• [21:15] Incremental growth and analogies to Lincoln’s career
• [22:26] Craftsperson vs. artist approaches in creative careers
• [30:39] Struggling to bridge client work with personal authorship
• [33:40] Assembling a shopfront of personal work
• [35:55] Personal crisis unlocking creative output
• [42:27] Taste, nostalgia, and musical identity
• [46:01] Pitching with a saw for The Twits project
• [51:30] Self-discovery while making a solo album
• [53:34] The myth of running out of creative ideas

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Embrace creative discipline as iterative and incremental; large leaps are often the result of many small steps.
• Risk and experimentation, even on “big jobs,” can lead to distinctive work and open new doors.
• Client projects and personal work are not opposites—skills and sensibilities can cross-pollinate.
• Creative blocks are real, but often situational—energy management and self-understanding are key.
• Your personal “sound” or style may evolve, but often traces back in surprising ways to your roots.
• Don’t fear that creativity will “run out”—the act of creating generates further possibilities.

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Action Step (From Andy’s CTA “Make It Brief”)

Flip the script on your next personal project: Write yourself a creative brief as if you were your own client. Go through a discovery phase, create a mood board, and articulate a core message in action-oriented language to anchor your work. (55:40–end)

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Overall Tone

The conversation is candid, humble, and practical, balancing anecdotes of big “breaks” with honest reflections on struggle, self-doubt, and the incremental path of the working creative. Both host and guest encourage listeners to value small steps, craft expertise, and authentic taste just as much as inspiration and artistic flare.

Transcript

[Andy J Pizza]

Being an artist, a lot of it is about having a point of view, having something to say. However, that is kind of easier. Harder than it sounds, actually. Easier said than done. How do you know what you want to say? How do you pick something? How do you find something that resonates deep enough with you to put it into some art that you spend time and energy on?

[Ollie Julian]

Is.

[Andy J Pizza]

This is especially difficult for those of us that got our start in more of a client work capacity. How do you move from someone kind of telling you this is what it needs to say and you got to bring it to life to. You got to start it from scratch? It can be. Even if you're used to that, it can be easy to get to a point where, like, I don't even know what I want to say. Today on the show, I've got Ollie Julian. Ollie Julian is a composer for TV shows like Sex Education. He just did the song soundtrack for the movie the Twits, which is based on a Roald Dahl book and it's on Netflix. We just watch it with our kids. The soundtrack is just so good. It's super silly and a lot of cool, fun stuff is going on in that music. And also David Byrne from Talking Heads did two of the songs on the project, which is kind of nuts. I was pumped to talk about Ali because he's coming from this background where he is making work. He started working in like jingles and advertising and stuff and moved into TV and movies and finding his way both as an artist and then coming to making his own album and working on that and. And going back to square one where he has to start it from scratch. So we talk about that a little bit. We get into taste and sensibility, how you get in touch with the things you've always loved and then push yourself into new territories. We also talk about interpreting your daydream because he's worked on these projects with people like Nick Cave and David Byrne and that's like some dream level stuff. But it didn't play out in the way that he might have thought it would when he was a teenager. And so if you struggle with this feeling that you're not living your dream, you're not doing the thing that your childhood self wanted you to do, there might be something in that that you can interpret and make into reality and make. Make sense. And I think there's some here hit. I think Ali's path speaks to that a little bit. So tons of really great stuff in here. Hope you love this chat with Ali Julian. And also I will be back at the end with our creative call to adventure. Of course, our CTA is called Make It Brief and it's a little exercise and activity to help you find out what you want to say in your work. So stick around for that. But without further ado, here's my chat with Ollie Julian on the creative journey. It's EAS to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm a longtime user. One of the things I love about Squarespace is I will use it's so easy to use that I will use it to create pitches. If I'm pitching a book or I'm pitching something to a client, I will use a Squarespace page in my website and I'll build the whole thing there. Then you don't have these clunky like document PDFs clogging up people's inboxes and it looks super slick. If you want to see one of those that I use all the time, I did one for my series right side out andyjpiza.com RSO and you can see how I create a little pitch summary of that project. Go to squarespace.com pep talk get building for free and trying it out and testing it. And then when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk all one word for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace. Longtime listeners know running is a huge part of my creative journey. It regulates my mood, keeps me creatively tuned in and helps me focus. So as an artist and a runner, I am super into Vanderjacket. That's because it's the only running apparel company that I have ever heard of that was founded by an artist and the business and the clothing scream creativity. Vanderjacket apparel is made of leftover fabric from bigger apparel companies. That limitation of using exclusively dead stock fabric actually forces the Vander team to innovate and create unique running styles. It all is really unique and super cool. All all apparel is made in Denver by the founder and a small team of brilliant clothing construction workers. They are the only running company I have ever heard of that makes one of a kind garments and does so in small batches of running clothes. It's getting colder recently and I have loved running in my vanderjacket jacket, deep pockets for my AirPods sleeves with thumb holes that keep my hands really warm. So good. If you're looking for something special this holiday season, whether your family's gifts need to be local, handmade, one of a kind, or repurposed. Vanderjacket checks every box. Head to vanderjacket.com and use code CREATIVE in all caps. CREATIVE for 20% off your first order. That's V A N D E R jacket.com promo code CREATIVE for 20% off your 1st order. As I was kind of diving into your story, I found out that one pivotal moment in your creative journey was eternal sunshine. Right?

[Ollie Julian]

Oh, yes, it was. Yeah. When I was. I can't remember when that movie came out. I feel like it was like 2001 or something or maybe around then.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah, it was. I think it was in like 2000 to 2005. It's in. In that era. Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah. And I just remember being, you know, I think I must have been about 18 at the time and just thinking that was the moment that I. I realized that film scores didn't need to be, like, all John Williams and orchestras and.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

Which I love, obviously, but they. It reflected a bit more my sensibility and what I can do musically. And I just had a thought, oh, hang on a minute. I can. I might be able to do this. And obviously we take it for granted now that film scores are anything. Instrumentation, anything you like. But I feel personally like that's fairly. In the last 20 years that's happened. I don't know. I think I feel like a lot of scores, if they weren't orchestral in. In the. In the 80s and 90s, and they. They weren't necessarily that good or they were. Do you know what I mean?

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

And so, yeah, I feel like it's. It's great that I'm. I've sort of grown up in an era where that can happen, and that's. So, yeah, that was. That was a pivotal moment for me, realizing that this. This career path was. Was possible with my skills, as it were.

[Andy J Pizza]

And the composer on that. Did you already know about John Bryan entering that, or was that your first kind of reaction to him?

[Ollie Julian]

Exactly. Yeah. That was my first introduction to him. So, yeah, it was all. It was all new.

[Andy J Pizza]

I feel like he should be a household name. And I. Because he's just so brilliant and I. That. That's probably my favorite movie. It's probably my favorite soundtrack.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah. It's kind of ridiculous.

[Ollie Julian]

Of all time, maybe. Wow.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan. It was a pivotal moment for me too, because I was probably like 16 or 17 and I. And it just. And I also feel like I Saw Ace Ventura too young. Like, I was probably like seven when we went to the movies and saw that. And that, like, defined almost the whole, my whole childhood up until around seeing Eternal Sunshine. I was like, oh, okay, it wasn't that simple. But I do think it ushered in a more creative era of like, you could be interesting, not just a dumbass. Yeah. So I had that. I also thought I could just grill you on like, why does elephant score or row or elephant parade? Why do these things make me feel so many feelings? But I know you probably can't answer that, can you?

[Ollie Julian]

I can't really answer that. I think, yeah, it's always specific to the person, isn't it? But, but yeah, I just think it's all our internal sensibilities and, and what we respond to.

[Andy J Pizza]

But did you, when you were watching that, was it really, like a thought that occurred to you of, like, this is different?

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, I think so. I think, I thought, I think it's because of the, the production style and I think it was because up until that point in movies, I hadn't really heard the kind of production style that I was starting to do in my own music also reflected, you know, messing around with tape machine sounds and slowing things down and just, just. And also things being incredibly simple and almost childlike in the delivery. It was just a world that I was like, oh, yeah. Because it was only around when I was about early 20s that I realized that you, you know, you could even, you know, what writing music for picture really was and how less is so much more often when it comes to scoring to picture. And I think it's still a, it's still a lesson that I'm still learning to do less. Might not necessarily want to listen to a soundtrack of that over and over again, but it really works with creatively with what's going on on screen.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah. Before this, like growing up as a kid and a teenager, did you have music or creative dreams before that kind of side quest?

[Ollie Julian]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I wanted to be a rock star. Yeah. Like every kid probably. You know, I was started off as a, as a drummer and I played in all of the school bands and things. And as a drummer at my school, anyway, you were in, you were in demand if you were a drummer, because I think there was only me for a long time. So I was in all of the bands, the jazz band, the brass band, the orchestra and everything. And so I, I, I, I got a lot of experience playing and I was in my own, like, bands in school with friends and so Yeah, I had ambitions. I started writing around that time as well. So I got, I had a four track and I used to just overdub myself. I taught myself the guitar and I'd overdubbed myself singing and playing guitar and playing drums and any instruments I could find. And so the kind of production thing, which is probably as part, as part of what I do in terms of how I create the soundtracks that I do just as much as the writing is, it's kind of all as one. That started off when I was at school as well. When I was a teenager I was writing and I guess producing myself fairly early on and friends and things. And so that was what made me think, oh yeah, I'd like to actually be a. Be a musician or a performing artist of some kind. But then, then the. I ended up not doing that for a while because I thought I'll get a real job. Went to university, but then after university I kind of realized that I couldn't not do music as a career. So that was when I, I did a music production course and then I ended up working in London in a, in a music production company doing jingles and adverts and that kind of thing.

[Andy J Pizza]

And what did you go to university for?

[Ollie Julian]

Originally to do languages, I was, I did German and Spanish and then. But I just, I got to the end of that and thought I don't want to be a translator or as much as I love language. And I just couldn't see a path that was, that was gonna be, you know, for me personally, interesting enough.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

And I just had. And all through that time I'd been performing, writing, recording, and I was like, still want to do it? And so I, I thought, yeah, I'll.

[Andy J Pizza]

You tried to get it out of your system and you're like, no, I can't, I gotta do something.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, I've just got to give it a try, give it a shot, you know, and see if it goes anywhere. And so I, yeah, I just went to London, which is where you have to go. Unfortunately, a lot of time this is.

[Andy J Pizza]

A leap, but it kind of relates to what I was going to ask you about interpreting translation, that those are the things I was thinking about where I think a lot about in my own path and then the path of creative people that I really respect and watch how they get to interesting places and it feels like there's an interpretation of a daydream in the same way that your dreams at night don't make any sense unless you had an interpretation of them. It feels like Your childhood dreams are kind of similar to that. Because if I could show Ollie at an early age, like, hey, you're gonna do projects that are, that involve David Byrne and Nick Cave, you probably would have had a pretty specific idea of what that would have looked like, right?

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. I was funny, I was rooting through some old boxes the other day of my old, like school things like from about 30 years ago when you do like a careers advice thing, and it told me what I, what I should get into.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

And it was like the three, the three things it said was music, media and marketing and now. Yeah, all right. Well, turns out that's pretty much what I've done working with music in media and currently talking to you about it.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah, yeah, kind of prophetic. So I guess my first question is about this is like, how do you go from studying languages to getting into jingles and doing that stuff? And then that is still a huge leap from what you're doing today. How does that happen?

[Ollie Julian]

Well, it was kind of like a U turn after the languages degree and I, I did my masters in music production but I came out of the masters and essentially had to start from the, you know, the bottom, as it were. Start square one. And I became a runner, a sound studio in London, just a mixing studio. I didn't do any sort of writing or anything like that and. And I just still didn't really know what I was doing. But then I ended up getting an interview with a company called Soundtree who do a lot of adverts and things. And I became a runner there, making tea and you know, doing, doing, starring at the bottom. And eventually I managed to crack an advert pitch and became a staff writer, as it were, on full time staff writing and was there for about six or seven years. It was great because I could afford to live in London and work as a salaried employee writing music, which is, you know, the dream. I got my first TV gig with a director called Ben Taylor who ended up, has gone on to direct Sex Education and Catastrophe and all these great shows and Renegade now and I've worked with ever since. That was the moment that I went freelance and then just essentially started focusing on TV and I did a load of sitcoms in the uk. Yeah, it's quite a small industry in the UK and. And everyone kind of knows each other and so you, you'd get a job on the back of another job. I spent a few years doing that and then, and then I've slowly got into like doing longer form and more films recently and more into drama.

[Andy J Pizza]

The two things that I'm still questioning or don't fully have a grasp on are one, how you go from creatively, how you go from making stuff on your own, being in bands, to being able to score a movie and do like that just seems like this huge evolution. I know it probably there are a lot of ways in which your sensibilities are similar or they, you know, kind of evolved over time, but that's. It seems like a huge leap. And the reason why I want to like drill down on that is sometimes when I'm talking to music friends, they get really. They feel very entrenched in the original dream of being the rock star and they don't really see a path for them to do anything else. And you saw how these things could happen in a different way. A lot of people I think, have a closed, fixed mindset about what's possible. Like, I don't think a lot of people in your shoes that had the background that you had could see that path. And maybe it was incremental and it didn't feel crazy or, or what. But did you have like. Yeah, maybe you could speak to that? Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

I didn't know that I was going to get to this point. I didn't even think I necessarily wanted to get to this point. I. I mean, all I knew was I. Well, on one hand it was great that I started off in ads because it's. You have to be so versatile and it becomes less about you and what you write and more about you having the skills and as a crafts to. To write in any number of different styles and turn out turnout music quickly of quality standard. That's kind of. That workmanlike sort of sensibility was drilled into me over a long period of time. Yeah, but. And then on the other hand, I think I just wanted to do longer form things every time because creatively I wasn't satisfied doing a 30 second piece of music.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

After doing, you know, hundreds of those, you're like, I really want to do something that's at least a minute or I really want to do something that's three minutes. I want to do something that's like a half hour sitcom or whatever, like your, your expectations grow and your ambitions grow. For me, it was like that anyway. I just creatively wanted to do longer and bigger things to the point where now I've just done the twits and it's my. The biggest, most ambitious thing I've ever done in terms of the Amount of music. I mean, I counted it up. There's like. There's 66 minutes of my music in that film, which is quite a lot.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

And then.

[Andy J Pizza]

And it sounds great, by the way.

[Ollie Julian]

Oh, thanks very much.

[Andy J Pizza]

It's full and fun and. And love the. Love the sound.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah. Well. And also it's biggest in terms of instrumentation and orchestral scale and all of that stuff that I've never had the budget or the canvas to do before. Yeah. So, yeah, I think for me, personally, it's just every step, stage of the way, I've just seen a little bit further over the creative hill, as it were, and gone. Oh, that looks interesting over there. I'll go there. And that's how it's progressed.

[Andy J Pizza]

I love that. There's kind of two things that I think are unusual about that, or maybe not in the cliche of what a creative does, but I think that they're some. They're inspiring. One is, I was just listening to this episode of Cal Newport's podcast, and it was called the Lincoln Protocol. And he's talking about how Abe Lincoln. How his journey from where he started, like, working on the farm to being the president and being this famous president, and that really, it was not a huge vision. It wasn't this huge goal. It was literally like, okay, if I read these books, I don't have to work on the farm anymore. And then they quit. Working on the farm is like, if I read these books and do these things, I could be a lawyer, and I do that, and then I could actually run for Congress. And then it's just this little incremental thing that happens over time. And I, like, I don't. I think it's probably the first time I've ever heard a musician kind of quantified their music contribution in minutes. Like, you know, it's so funny. But it works, like. It worked for you, like, to think about, like, hey, I want to do something a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger.

[Ollie Julian]

It works for me because I'm. I mean, I feel like in this business, there's. There's people like me who maybe works at it for a long time. I kind of split people up into, like, the craftsman approach and then the artist approach. And I'm very much, you know, if you want me to build you a table, I'll make you a table, and I'll. I'll. I'll do it well, and you'll like the table. Might take a few rounds of comments from you, but I'll make you a really nice table. There's skill involved, but you're not. There's like. That's kind of where. Where I've come from musically.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

Whereas you get, obviously, you know, composers like Johnny Greenwood, for example. I'm just thinking of artists who are established artists already, recording artists who you'll go to because you want Johnny Greenwood for your movie. And. And that's a very different thing. Like, people do come to me because of me, but that's usually because they know who I am and. And they know my sounds now and that kind of thing. But it's a slightly different approach. And I think there's a lot of people who present themselves as recording artists who then want to score a film and they might be thinking, how on earth do I do that? How do I get into that field? Yeah. And for me, it's been a. It's been a long road and one which is, you know, only been a bit at a time, as it were. I think there's different ways of getting into this industry and doing this job, and then both are valid. It's just I can only really speak to one of them.

[Andy J Pizza]

Sure. And I think that my perspective on those two routes that you just laid out are the, you know, the artist versus the craftsperson and then the mix of both. I think that being a Johnny Greenwood, my only issue with that as someone who to try to learn from is it feels like trying to financially plan by winning the lottery because you happen to be a genius or you happen to be in the right place, the right time, and all these different, you know, it's not a thing that's easy to really take many takeaways from. And that's why I think, like, when a lot of people watch like music biopics and that sort of thing creates all of these. Yeah. And like an occult kind of like witchcrafty. I don't know. Just like this is superstition about the way that this comes together versus what I like about what you're describing with crafts, like having a craftsmanship attitude. Like, I've thought about how that, for me, creative state is similar to like a sleep state. Like, it's not a thing that you can force, but you can do things that allow it to happen to be more likely. And I think one of those things is things we think of as creative. Like, I think of drawing as creative, but really it's like an act I'm doing and then sometimes. Or it's a craft I'm doing and then sometimes. And that is the space where I'm likely To slip into a creative state, but I don't actually need it to happen to make something because I have the craft side. Does that make sense?

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think, I mean, I've got young children and one thing that really kills my creative state is tiredness.

[Andy J Pizza]

Me too.

[Ollie Julian]

And I, I, I can't write music when I'm tired. I just, I really can't. And that's like a prerequisite for me to be able to write new things is to not be knackered. I can come in, turn the computer on, move some things around the screen and, and turn some things up and down, but that's, that's just, that's just technically doing my job. It's not really creatively writing, if you know what I mean. There's. Writing is literally 5% of my job. And there's, there's so much other stuff to being a composer because you're essentially running your own business, your own head of department, doing all these other jobs at the same time. The actual essence of it is very, there's a very small percent, but you need, like, say you need to access that and create the conditions for that to happen. Otherwise you don't have anything. That's, that's, that's your usp.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yes, exactly.

[Ollie Julian]

Um, yeah. So I definitely, I'm always trying to make sure the conditions are right for, for my creativity.

[Andy J Pizza]

To me, it sounds like a kind of creative hero's journey where you start in pop rock music and artistry and then you go into this world that's maybe foreign or not really what you intended in the jingles and the craftsman and, you know, that sort of like, like you say, getting outside of yourself and learning the instrumentation and all that. Do you feel like, like listening to the Twits soundtrack now and knowing the stuff that you're working on now, it seems like it's a full circle in terms of now you have this space where your artistry is coming into the forefront. Does it feel like that? Do you feel like that's where you're at?

[Ollie Julian]

A little bit, in a way, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm incredibly lucky and incredibly privileged to be able to say that. Yes, I feel like that.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

I've had imposter syndrome since the beginning, and I still have imposter syndrome.

[Andy J Pizza]

Right.

[Ollie Julian]

I don't think that ever goes away.

[Andy J Pizza]

Me too.

[Ollie Julian]

But the, I have confidence enough now that I've been doing it long enough that, that I know that imposter syndrome is just me. And it's, I Can still, I can, I can do my job. I can write things that people want to listen to and want to buy. So yes, whether or not I see myself as a, an artist or not, I don't, I don't know. I still, I still see myself as a. I see myself as a very creative, you know, hard working craftsperson who can, who can deliver what you want. I mean, it's funny, I'm trying to write my own album at the same time at the moment.

[Andy J Pizza]

That's a real full circle.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, it is and it's. And it's because I've been doing, you know, music to brief for so long essentially that. And now I've got, yes, I've got space to write my own stuff and I'm like, what do I even sound like when I'm not writing to picture or to someone else is brief like what is. And it, and it is very similar to what I was doing when I was 15. And that's, that's kind of funny but also unsurprising in a way. Yeah, but it, yeah, but it's hard because you, like, it's a whole different mindset to write your own music without anyone asking you to do it in any way. And I know a lot of people, friends of mine and composers who work in this industry also find writing their own stuff quite a struggle. And again, that's the thing about the, the two different routes into the industry. If you're already a recording artist, you do your thing, you know, your thing. And that bit of the.

[Andy J Pizza]

And then when you get asked to like, hey, right to this thing. A lot of people in that scenario are like, I don't know how to do this.

[Ollie Julian]

No. And then they get fired and people call me.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

And that's which happens quite a lot.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

So it's kind of. Yeah, it's two different skills and you have to. It's quite hard to be really good at both of them.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah, I think there's a temptation. I see a parallel there too where I was when I was trying to. I had spent my whole career working on illustration as like client work and then at some point did a shift to start writing my own books and working in picture books and stuff like that. And so there was a real crossroads moment and I think there's a temptation to be like, oh, this is just a different person that knows how to do this. Like, and I know a lot of artists that start in design or illustration or in music on the ad side or the licensing side or whatever. And then bridging that gap feels really impossible. But at the same time, I found now that it's. Now they like. They play off of each other. So a lot of my books end up getting me different client work and I'm bringing that kind of sensibility there. And there is like a. It kind of reminds like. Like the client stuff got better from being able to do that in a. In a way that I relate to. When an actor writes a movie and writes their own role and kind of says, like, this is who I am, then they start getting cast as that kind of thing because they've. They've put it in their mind. That has happened a lot for me when I'm able to find authorship in my own side projects. Like, I get better jobs, but finding. When you haven't been used to being the starting point, it's pretty difficult. Have you found. Have you found your way in? Do you feel like.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, I mean, I've just. It's funny, I. I've just done a TV show called Leonard and Hungry Paul on BBC, which is narrated by Julia Roberts. Yeah, she's a big fan of the book. I was noticing how the kind of thing that I was doing for that is actually very similar to what I would normally do for me anyway.

[Andy J Pizza]

And.

[Ollie Julian]

And so I'm quite keen to get that soundtrack out and put it on Spotify and Apple music and everything, just so it's there. And the more. The more stuff that's out there that is a bit like what I do anyway feels then like there's more of a. Of a shop front for me, for me as a sound. And I won't be getting. I'll be getting new work, perhaps off people who see that and want that, rather than where I've had work before, which is often on from returning clients who know that I can deliver whatever they want because they've worked with me before and I've always delivered what they want. So it's kind of. Yeah, that's where I'd like to get to in the next year or two, is just having more of a shop front, like you said, with your side projects and how they represent you a bit more.

[Andy J Pizza]

Just.

[Ollie Julian]

Just sort of having a bunch of stuff that is more emblematic of. Of what you do.

[Andy J Pizza]

It can't. It kind of reminds me of like there is there. There are like creative seasons of going with the flow and kind of taking the next opportunity, and then there's creative seasons of making your own waves. And it reminds me a little bit of like, you're reminding me of Matthew McConaughey. How about that? For a kind of weird compliment. But he talks about this moment in his journey where it was like he was just getting rom com after rom com after rom com, and eventually was like, hey, I'm not doing this. I'm going to tell my agent I'm not doing those. I'm going to wait for a role and try to find a role where I can show off this different side of me. And some people get stuck there. And he got lucky because he got some chances there, but some people get stuck and they really have to write their own role. Go ahead.

[Ollie Julian]

I was going to say.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

Because obviously you got to earn a living as well. And if, you know. And if the only work.

[Andy J Pizza]

Not all. Matthew McConaughey. Okay. Sitting on millions and millions of dollars.

[Ollie Julian]

Exactly. And if the only work you're getting is the stuff that you're known for and, you know, it's very hard to turn that stuff down.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

Like.

[Andy J Pizza]

And it might not be necessary. You might not have to put a period on the end of that sentence. You can also do, like, you say, like, this other side thing where you're working on your own album and doing that kind of thing.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah.

[Andy J Pizza]

Do you. What? So just to get. Because I like to get into a little bit into what people are wrestling with in the moment rather than just reflecting. So are you're in the process of making this album?

[Ollie Julian]

My own album. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've done about four or five tracks.

[Andy J Pizza]

How did you find your. Start there? And maybe you feel. I mean, hey, maybe you were like, I don't know, maybe these are going on there, maybe they're not. I don't know where you're at emotionally in your relationship to it, but. Because the reason I ask is because I think so many. There are so many people that are stuck in that, waiting for the phone to ring to know what to make. And I'm just wondering, even if you feel like you haven't cracked it, what has helped you get some stuff down?

[Ollie Julian]

Well, a couple of years ago, I started divorcing my wife.

[Andy J Pizza]

That'll get the creative juices flowing, right?

[Ollie Julian]

Yes. So. So that was. Yeah, it was kind of. That. I was. You know, obviously I can. I can laugh about it now.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah. Sorry for laughing about.

[Ollie Julian]

No, no, it's. It's absolutely fine. The. So, like, yeah, there's a. There was. There's a particularly sad emotional moment that happened to me a few years ago, and that was the. That was the kickstarting thing that, that, that, that happened and it was almost like I had, I had to do it. You know, it wasn't really like I had time to do it, although I had, I was sort of in a gap between projects as well. So it did work out. Obviously it was all incredibly bleak music. And, and, but it was, you know what the weird thing was is that when that happened it wasn't not in terms of writing but in terms of listening. I couldn't listen to any new music for a long time. I had to go back and listen. The only music I listened to was music that I had listened to 20 years ago before I got together with my ex wife. It was so weird. It was just like. It was like a psychological thing that, that was all, that was all my brain could take. And it's like I regressed 20 years. It was, it was really strange. It's not like that anymore, thank goodness. But it was for, for a while I, that was, that was all I could do. It was like a comfort thing or a defense mechanism or something which I found quite interesting. And the other thing about that is that yeah, I wrote a lot of bleak music immediately and then I'm quite keen on not needing that emotional disaster in order to create.

[Andy J Pizza]

Trying to figure out how do I make these creative dishes without turmoil and suffering being a key ingredient.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Andy J Pizza]

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[Andy J Pizza]

I wondered if when you went, you had this return to grounding in a previous sensibility. Maybe. Did you. Were there anything Maybe you're just trying to like. I mean, part of it is probably more psychological, but creatively, I wonder if there was like a getting back in touch with. I think a lot about. I think about taste a lot and sensibility as like, very key components of guiding your internal kind of creative compass. And I think two components are, like, you have your acquired tastes that you get over time, and I think they're super important for, like, expanding your palette and all that. But then you have the guilty pleasures that say something about who you. Your taste on a visceral level. Like, these things are like, I almost wish I didn't like these, but it's so true. I can't help it. As you were, like, diving back into that stuff. Do you, do you. Do you want to talk about who, who you're listening to? Is that because, you know, I'm always fascinated, fascinated by how I like. I try to stay listening to new stuff, but I love when something old that I went through a period of time of hating. Sounds great. Like a few years ago, maybe five, six years ago, it was like Alanis Morissette. I was like, nothing sounds better than this. This sounds so good. And then it was like tlc. And then lately I've been listening to. I'm going first, by the way. I'm telling you all my weird stuff that I listen to so that you feel comfortable. But lately I've started listening to that, like, strummy 90s American rock stuff that was radio rock, like Matchbox 20 and Goo Dolls stuff that I really did not like for 20 years, maybe. And I'm like, there's something about this. I try to be open to it, you know, because I think it's, it's interesting, it's honest if you're just, like, reacting to something. So, yeah, I don't know if you want to out yourself or anything, but.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think there's a particular genre or necessarily any, Any particular style that I was. Suddenly went back to. I just went back to listening to like, I just had to listen to the albums that I was listening to 20 years ago and that might have been, you know, Damien Rice or Badly Drawn Boy or, or like, you know, I don't know, Nick Cave's album of the time, like the Liar of Orpheus or, you know, things that. Things that were out around the. The 2000s, 2005. And you know, it was just, just that, that, that period. And so it was just like a purely psychological thing. I think it did. It probably spoke to the fact that I was listening to a lot of emotional music at the time when I was back then as well, because I was, you know, I was probably a fairly moody, angsty teen and then early 20 something and, you know, so. And like you say, I think ever since then I've acquired a lot of other genres and styles and tastes through, especially through work because I've had to listen to so many genres in order to, you know, write in the styles that are necessary. So that's when people say, oh, what music do you like? I really can't answer that question because I, I like a lot of music and I, I would really like to answer that question, but I find it very reductive and very difficult to answer that question that makes sense. I almost wish that I was really just into one thing.

[Andy J Pizza]

You should say, like, just that. What I've learned is if someone asked me, like, what do you do? I've learned to be like, I'm a graphic designer. I'm not a graphic designer. But if I say I'm a picture book maker, they're instantly like, I've got a picture book idea. What's the thing that I can give you that just makes you satisfied and we can kind of move on? You got to just find that genre answer.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy J Pizza]

Do you, as you're moving into this album, I'm curious if, if this commercial art journey, if you had any like elixir that you took from that, that you feel like you're bringing to this solo stuff that you couldn't have put into if you'd made this album when you're 18, you just.

[Ollie Julian]

I think I've learned to try and do less. And I know it's. You don't necessarily need to when you're not working to picture, but I still think it's valid that you can do a lot with less that. So, yeah, that's probably the only thing. I mean, I don't know, because I haven't done it yet, and no one's really listened to it, and I don't know if it's any good. And so it's. It's hard for me to say what I would have learned from my working to pitch because I haven't. Haven't really completed the task yet, if you know what I mean.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was, you know, when you're. When you're making work for a brief, it's hard to. It's hard sometimes to be. To slip into that creative state and make unexpected choices. One choice that I know that you made that was kind of seems unusual from my perspective was that you brought a saw to your Netflix meeting. And.

[Ollie Julian]

Which is.

[Andy J Pizza]

Which is not. You know, if you're not a woodworker, that doesn't make sense to most people. For me, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. If I'm doing a job, I might get a job for the biggest client there is. I'm gonna have to overcome my desire to try to play it safe. And so I'm just curious how maybe you could talk about what that means. What happened there and then what do you think allowed you to reach for stuff that maybe wasn't even inside of your wheelhouse?

[Ollie Julian]

It sounds like. No, it wasn't. I mean, I'd.

[Andy J Pizza]

So what happened?

[Ollie Julian]

Well, full disclosure, I'd already sent them the tracks when I had that meeting, so. Okay. So they'd already heard the saw in context, so. And I had basically taught it. You know, I say, learned the saw. I made some noises and sampled them.

[Andy J Pizza]

And you made some music with a saw?

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. Yeah, so they'd heard it in the context, and they. And they. I had this big, you know, zoom call with. With all of the execs, and they. They were seen to be into it, and. And. And I. And the soul was just over there, and I was like, I can. I can show you if you want.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah.

[Ollie Julian]

And they're like, yeah, yeah, get out. And then as I went to get it, I was like, should not have said that.

[Andy J Pizza]

You're walking back to the zoom call with like, dude, no.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah. And then. Then I was like, oh, that's enough. You know, just played him a little note. Yeah.

[Andy J Pizza]

Do you have a saw in the room right now, or is that gone?

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, it's hanging up there. Actually, don't ask me to play it.

[Andy J Pizza]

You still got it. Yeah, that, that's amazing. Well, yeah, I just, I was just curious and do you just feel like you, you're always even on these commercial projects, thinking you're constantly, like, pushing what you could bring into it?

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, definitely. Instrumentation, always. The first few projects I had, there was always like an element, a sound or an instrument or something that made it unique. And I've kind of taken that on board to, for all of the projects. I just need to be able to, it's almost like I need to be able to point to something and go, that's what this project is. And yeah, so I did a show called Catastrophe, which had like a yodel as a, as a, as a sound. And then I did a show called Plebs, which was a kind of a sitcom set in Rome, but it had like a Jamaican Scar soundtrack. So everything has always had musical identity that, that I've tried to. Yeah, rather than it just being, you know, piano and strings or just, just to have something a little bit quirky or a little bit unique about it. And yeah, so with the Twits, it was definitely. The Saw was one of the first things that me and Phil talked about. I think we were talking early on about Tom Waits a lot, and it just sounding really grungy and kind of like dirty.

[Andy J Pizza]

Swampy.

[Ollie Julian]

Swamp. Swampy, yeah, that's the right word. And, and then the brass, like the sort of bulk and brass sound was, was something that we talked about early on as it being a good sound for Mr. Twig because it was sort of low and flatulent and also linked to his kind of northern British characters backstory.

[Andy J Pizza]

Did you feel offended by his, you know, stereotype in the movie of the North?

[Ollie Julian]

No, I, I, I mean, it's lovable.

[Andy J Pizza]

It is.

[Ollie Julian]

But, yeah, yeah, Johnny Vegas is a, is a legend.

[Andy J Pizza]

A legend. Yeah, totally.

[Ollie Julian]

So, yeah, so there was, I mean, the Twits is very much a, an ensemble of various different instruments and, you know, kind of wrapped up in a orchestral sound. So, yeah, there isn't. You can't really point to one thing on the Twits and say, that's the sound of the Twits.

[Andy J Pizza]

When you talk about creating these different identities for different compositions, to me it sounds almost like brand identity. It feels like a branding artist kind of thinking or branding designer thinking about what are the marks, what's the, like, what's the piece that is the centerpiece of this thing that's kind of set the tone for everything else. And for you, it seems like it could be a particular little genre or instrument or something of that nature. Do you think that I'm only going to do this once? I'm going to go back to the album out of curiosity, but do you think that you have a sense of that for your album of, like, this is a thing that is an identity? For me.

[Ollie Julian]

Yes. Although, if I say it out loud, it doesn't sound like much, but I. It's kind of. I use my voice a lot as a writing tool and I never. I always. It's almost like an afterthought. But I've been told by my agent many times that I should talk. Say that I'm a singer more. But like, I use it as a writing tool and it as. And as a drummer and a singer and a bad guitarist, you kind of. It creates a vibe or a way of writing that's quite. Although it's, you know, conventional sounds that is quite unique and. And definitely sounds like me. The kind of harmonies I do, the. The kind of guitaring I do, whether it's with an acoustic or a ukulele or. Or whatever. And. Yeah, so that's. That's kind of where I'm going with the album and that's a bit more where I'm. Where I'm at. I mean, I often say that my music is kind of rhythmic led, generally. Like, I often start with. With rhythm rather than melody, which, you know, a lot of other instrumentalists might start with melody and worry about rhythm later, but it's. For me, it's definitely that way around.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ollie Julian]

And I think it informs. Informs, you know, the. The piece that you make quite strongly in the style that you have, that makes sense.

[Andy J Pizza]

I had one other question, which is if you think about where you're at now and what you. How you approach creative work, and you think about where you were at maybe 18 or right out of school or in the jingle era. Do you feel like there's one thing that you got wrong about creativity that you have changed your tune on?

[Ollie Julian]

I suppose I always thought that it might run out and. And I might. I might just have a limited amount of sort of music in me, and I don't. That might still be the case, but I haven't got there yet. I haven't got there yet. Yeah. So the. I definitely feel like I'm still producing good stuff and the stuff I've done recently is some of the best and, you know, not always the best, but some of the best. And it's so I'm quite pleased with that diagnosis or that sort of, you know, how it's progressing. I think I wouldn't have had the confidence to say that. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't have had the confidence 10 years ago to say that I would be doing the Twits film at all. Who knows where my career goes from here? But it's like, I feel more confident to say that, yeah, I can. I can do this job to a satisfactory level.

[Andy J Pizza]

Yeah, you can. The soundtrack sound great. And I also, I totally agree, feel like being precious is something you have to unlearn, like, really hard. You feel like, oh, I don't know. I don't know if I should. Should I make a thing today? And you realize, like, oh, every time you make something, it is almost generative. It almost, like, leads to a tree of other decisions and possibilities. And I think you're totally right.

[Ollie Julian]

Yeah, definitely.

[Andy J Pizza]

Awesome. Well, hey, the movie sounds amazing. It's really funny and the music is really fun, and I'm glad I got to chat with you.

[Ollie Julian]

Brilliant. Thanks so much. Cheers.

[Andy J Pizza]

All right, I'm back. Thank you, Ali, for joining me on this episode. It was great to chat to somebody who's in a completely different world than the people I usually chat with. And this is top level stuff. And it was cool to kind of hear it from a totally different perspective. Find differences, find overlap. By the way, if you noticed, if you're watching this on YouTube and you notice I look tired, I am tired. It's because we scheduled this one a little bit earlier than I usually do because he's in England. So the time thing, I still got jazzed. I was still pumped. I was still feeling it, but I could see these bags under my eyes. I usually schedule these in the afternoon. I'm back with your cta, your call to adventure this week. Here it is. It's called Make It Brief. And this is about how do you. If you're used to waiting for an opportunity to come to you and then kind of give you the constraints and tell you, if you're an illustrator, designer or a musician working on a film or soundtrack, whatever, if you're in that scenario, how do you find what you want to say? And so my challenge to you is to make it brief. Make a. Make a. Make it a brief. Make this next personal piece of work a brief. And instead of just starting it, just doodling and just seeing where it goes, go through the process as if you were your own client and you're trying to do some art that really tells people who you are and just go through this three step process, Go through a discovery phase. You're trying to just put down on Pinterest or in a notebook. Like everything that you associate with you. Your beliefs, your communities, your hobbies, your skills, just what you like, what you don't like, what people think of you, what people associate with you. Just put it all down onto the page without any judgment. Then create a little mood board after that. That. That takes the best of that, that sees the patterns in that. The stuff that really resonates or feels true right now, that's lighting you up. Put that together and then try to verbalize it. I don't mean just make it into words, I mean make it into verbs, like, just do it. How do we get your slogan that you're trying to. Maybe you literally put it in your work. If you're writing a song, you're. That's the chorus. Or maybe if you're an illustrator, you actually put some lettering in it and it's in there. Or it's just the spirit of this piece. You create a phrase that is verb, action, centric that you want to bring to life in a piece of work. For me, when I've done this process, one of the ways I describe it is discovery phase. Putting all this stuff down, mood board, like picking out the best, picking out the stuff, the patterns. Noticing like this is the aesthetic or this is the vibe that I'm kind of pushing towards. And then when I went to verbalize it, as I worked through all that, the way that I would probably think about a lot of my work now, picture books that I have written and been a part of, I think a lot of it comes down to don't try to escape reality. This is the long form. I'll give you the short bit in a minute. But don't try to escape reality. To find interestingness and jazz, go deeper into it. So be even more present. Go to the hidden realms of reality that are present here. You can see that in my book A Sunday with Everything on it. You can see that in Invisible Things and all that stuff. But don't escape, go deeper. That's. That's my Nike slogan. Okay? So try to find one for yourself by going through this process and working with these pictures and words and feelings, maybe make a soundtrack to it. And then create your own brief that says, we want to get across this message with a piece of work. Now you've got something to work with, something to push against. Now you got your little brief. Thanks, Ali, for coming on the show. It was great having you. And thanks to Sophie Miller for being a producer and editor on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for audio edits, video edits, animation, other things. Which ones am I forgetting? You know, he does this stuff. The video. I. I think I got them all. Thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our soundtrack art theme song. Thanks to you for listening. Until we speak again, stay pepped up. Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry, market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our [e-mail] and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path Handbooklet. And the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up y'.

[Ollie Julian]

All.