B (5:17)

Andy, welcome to this podcast. We're very, very excited to have you here.

A (5:20)

Hey, I'm happy to be here. Yeah, thanks for making accommodations for me for this special episode.

B (5:27)

It's very, very deserved. And first of all, thank you for all the, all the things you have given to our get emio to our industry for this past 10 years. In specific that you've been making your podcast. It's been 10 years in like 500 episodes or something?

A (5:46)

Yeah, a little bit over 500.

B (5:48)

So, yeah, we've doing this for three years and we just hit the 200 episode mark and we thought it was like a huge amount. But projects like yours, we with just so much content.

C (6:02)

So just in case you never listen to Andy podcast, we recommended like Cinco de Cinco, Cinco Estrellas. It's called Creative Pep Talk and it's been a long ride. Right, Andy, how's it been for you, like been making that podcast for that long?

A (6:23)

It's been really interesting and I've had a lot of ups and downs in my kind of relationship to it. I've mostly, I've always felt passionate about doing it. I'VE always, like, felt strongly about the messages and why I'm doing it. But the productivity aspect of, like, just getting it done and continuing to be on schedule, that I've gone all over the place over the 10 years now, and I think that's normal. So for right now, I'm in a pocket where I'm, like, really enjoying it at this moment. So I'm aware of, like, oh, it just kind of ebbs and flows. And sometimes that has to do with the other projects that I'm doing and whether I'm too busy or. Yeah, a lot of different factors. But, um, it's been. You know, what I love about it the most is probably other than just being an extension of my love for creative people and creative weirdos. And I love. These are the people I like in the real world. I love. Yeah, I love creative people. I want to see them succeed. I feel like our world is not set up for them to succeed. So I have a lot of compassion for them. So I love that. That's obviously at the center of it. And then selfishly, I love that both on a storytelling front and then an illustration front, because I do episode art every time, with every episode, it feels kind of like a creative gym. So I'm just always working on those creative muscles. I'm always trying to find the metaphor. I'm always trying to find the analog. Put it in the story or in the episode and into the artwork. And I think I just like. I like that it's become a practice for me and it keeps. It keeps me engaged creatively. I'm always. I'm able to get excited about what I do most weeks, partially because of it.

C (8:38)

Most weeks?

A (8:39)

Yeah, most weeks. Not all weeks. I try to do it every week. You know, I'm always trying to find something to be excited about. It's not always possible, but because I. I like the idea of, you know, Seth Godin talks about. He's a marketing guy, talks about how you don't really need your surgeon to be authentic, you just need him to be good. And, like, I think creativity is different than that, but I like this idea of being a professional, having a practice, making it a habit, whether you feel like you're in the mood or not.

B (9:22)

You know, I think you specific thing of your podcast that it's not only that stands out in between creative podcasts, but, like, in podcasts in general, is that podcasts are very hard and a lot of labor to, like, keep them going. But you take it, like a step further because there's like soup traumas going on. And so projects inside the podcast and just like different experiments and all of that takes just so much extra effort that I don't know if everybody, like, sees it, because it's just a lot of job to do a podcast, even though if it's like super practical, just giving like good data, but you give it like storytelling and concept and whatnot. So we appreciate that a lot because it just takes like double of the normal podcast effort.

A (10:11)

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Thanks for seeing the extra effort. I think one thing that helps is that I have a few different formats. I think the thing that I try to do is I'm always trying to deliver on the feeling that I think people push play for. So that's the thing I'm always thinking about is why would someone play this podcast? What's the emotion they're after? What's the experience? What are they trying to get from this that can be consistent every time? And then how can I deliver that in a few different ways? Because the really concept heavy solo episodes take a lot of, lot more work than the interview episodes or the Q and A episodes. But I'm trying to give the same sort of thing, trying to make it additive to have these different formats, like you getting something more than if I was just doing the hard version every single time. But you're also getting kind of the same thing no matter what format it is.

C (11:16)

And. And you think that that exercise can translate to the illustration world. Like, I mean, like, when you don't feel like I can today, I don't, I. I don't feel like I can do like a big drought. I don't know. Like, you. It's something you. You think about it.

A (11:33)

Oh, yeah, definitely. And I, I think on both, in both ways. So I think about. I love what Christoph Niemann says about this. He's an illustrator. He has a talk, I think it was at a conference called 99U. It's on the Internet. And I think about this all the time. And he said, like, the job of the professional is to be good every time. You have to be good, but you can't control whether you're great. Great happens on accident or it happens while you're there. Sometimes it happens to be great. But if you're a professional, you can do good every time. That's the craft. And so I do think, I think that that connects to the thing I was talking about, where I'm thinking about what is the feeling or the outcome that I want to have happen from this thing I'm making. And that is true for a podcast episode, but it's also true for a talk. It's also true for a picture book. It's also true for an illustration. I think a lot about it's a craft thing I think about when I go tell stories. I'm not just thinking, what's a good story I have. And I still feel like a student of all of these things. Because you can't be great every time. You always are gonna be in that student position. You're always learning, you're always trying. But when it comes to like, oh, I'm gonna tell a story, and I want this sort of emotional outcome, the only way that you can do that as a professional and do that every time is if you reverse engineer the recipe of how do you produce that. So I've studied a lot of like, I've taken. If I hear. If I heard a talk or a podcast, and there was a really. Or a stand up set, you know, stand up comedy. And there was a great bit that I was obsessed with and it made me cry. I would record that little bit and then I would just listen to it over and over again. And while I'm listening to it, I'm using my brain like it's a metal detector of like, how, okay, that's the feeling. What contributed to that feeling? How did that happen? And so everything that I do is like that. Like, if we have a book, we have a new kid's book out called Mysterious Things. And every page we were trying to explore a different way to make you feel that feeling when you encounter a mystery. And so there's a bunch of craft elements to that. So, yeah, I think about these things. I also like doing them in podcasts and talks and picture books and illustrations because you're kind of, in a way, you're doing similar things in all those places. And things I'll learn in podcasting will make me a better illustrator. And things in illustration and vice versa, they all kind of fit together in a way that's really fun and satisfying to me.

B (14:49)

And when did you have like that switch of putting that much attention to what things made you feel to learn from them? Because I think we are like in the opposite situation. Like the actual context of social media, it's the time that we consume more and more and more and more artist stuff, but the time that we last analyze it and dissect it and like, really learn from it. Like, if you go to a museum, you may stand for five minutes seeing a picture but in Instagram, you see like 0.1 second each image.

A (15:27)

I think that I didn't start doing that until probably about. Probably about 10 years ago. When I started the podcast, is when I was just starting to think a lot more about craft. Think a lot more about, like, the mechanics of how art makes you feel something. And, you know, just as an aside, a lot of people, when you start talking about art like this, a lot of people, some people get excited, other people feel nervous that we're in the realm of manipulating people, taking advantage of them, tricking them, brainwashing them, because you're making them feel something. And I think that's a valid concern. But I think what they're talking about is not art, it's propaganda. And I think the idea of the difference to me is that art really works. I think because you're trying to make them feel something true, something that they can get on board with, that their humanity can reflect and embrace, because they're like, yeah, that's my experience. That's what it's like to be alive. And I feel like propaganda is trying to make them something feel. Trying to make them feel something that isn't true. And we know it's not true, but we're gonna try to convince them it is through manipulative tactics. So I think they're very different kind of things. Anyway. What did you ask?

C (17:03)

We're talking about propaganda, manipulation.

B (17:05)

You already answered it, that you changed the switch on, like, putting attention when you started a podcast. But yeah, that makes sense. When you put attention to, like, when you. The first time that you give a workshop, or you have to, like, put down, like, the theory that maybe you had it, but you've never, like, put it down on paper.

A (17:25)

Yes, I completely agree with that and that this is something that's been on my mind a lot lately. I really recommend that. So, yeah, I was already an illustrator before I started the podcast. But then you're right. As you start having to articulate it, you have to think a lot more about it. But the thing is, is that not only does do you think more about that, and you can talk more about that when you start teaching it, you get better at doing it. And so the thing I really recommend teaching to all artists. Find ways to teach everything you just learned. Try to teach it right away. And the reason why is because the best practices in learning require you to do what they call active recall. Like, the best way to study is actually to try to figure it out and then see if you can explain it. And if you can explain it, you will start internalizing it. So that's like a study hack, but you can use that in your own art. And I think also the reason why I had already been in the illustration game at the time I launched my podcast, I'd already been illustrating for, like, six years. And that's from when I first got my first freelance jobs. And I think that it's normal for those first years to be thinking a lot more surface level. You're really thinking about aesthetic and your skill level, whether you can draw, whether you can paint, whatever it is. And you're really thinking about the surface of things. For a lot of people, I feel like we fall in love with the art, and at first we just think it's the style that we love. And so I think that was the other piece is that. That's when I was starting to get into wanting to connect on a deeper level. But it's a hard thing to overcome because the thing that stops people, I think, from pushing further and going deeper and learning that craft stuff is feeling like you're not going to be able to learn it. Like, you're not. You don't have the natural capabilities to learn how to tell a story that way or learn how to draw that way, or learn how to come up with concepts or. I don't know if everyone relates to that, but that was a huge hurdle for me. Is that when I started hearing people talk about, this is how you tell a story. These are the concept, these are the theories. My initial reaction to that craft was a rejection. And it came from a place of. I was saying, I don't want to be formulaic. I just want to do my own thing. And I think there was some truth in that. But ultimately, I think it was a. I don't believe I can learn that. Does that make sense?

B (20:29)

Yeah, for sure. Especially. Especially when. When you. Yeah, when you realize that. That. Sorry, our dog crazy.

C (20:37)

The public is crazy about that.

A (20:40)

He loved it. I'm a huge, huge dog person, so I'm a huge fan of it.

B (20:45)

Yeah, she's always here, like, watching over.

C (20:48)

Us, but, yeah, she was listening to you.

B (20:50)

Yeah. I feel that we get a little bit afraid, especially when we are. We realize how much effort good storytelling takes, how much effort good. Whatever craft takes. So it's like, oh, fuck, if I'm going to spend, like, the next 10 years, like, learning that craft, maybe I don't know if I want to go that. That road and maybe get disillusioned. Right.

A (21:13)

I told. Yeah, I totally Agree with that. I think a While ago, the 10,000 hour rule was something that you heard about all the time. Like, if you want to be a master, you got to spend 10,000 hours. I think that, to me, that idea is so overwhelming. It's like, oh, I can enjoy what I'm making in 10 years after I put all. You know, like, that's so discouraging. And to me, I think the other thing that helped was realizing you can learn to do something cool with craft in one day. In one day, you can learn a little piece of that. And I think, for me, that's why I think storytelling, something you could study forever, because it's so. There's so. It's so rich. It's so much like a externalized version of our minds. Like, that's how rich and complex story is. I think it's kind of like our psyches on pages. And so it's very, very complicated and interesting and powerful. And so I think I could learn about it my whole life, but also I was learning pieces of it throughout the 10 years of making the podcast. And I learned, oh, this is how you hook somebody. Okay, I can learn how to hook somebody in a few months, and then I can learn, oh, this is how you get the metaphor. And. And this is where you start tapping into the symbolism or the what's the motivation? Or where's the tension? Or there's all. You know, there's so much to go at, but you can actually become a master at a little part of it and put it to practice in your creative work, like, as soon as you learn it. But, yeah, you're right. It's easy to get overwhelmed by that journey if you're trying to take it all at once, you know?

B (23:03)

Yeah, it happens to all of us.

C (23:04)

Well, we have for you, Andy, nine questions. Nine. This physical Instagram, you know.

A (23:14)

That'S so cool.

B (23:15)

That's exactly how it is, because you.

C (23:17)

Don'T have comments, you don't have hate here because it's just paper.

B (23:22)

You also don't have hate in the real life.

C (23:24)

Yeah, it's a safe place.

A (23:27)

So.

B (23:28)

Yeah.

A (23:28)

So cool.

C (23:29)

You can choose your grid, and maybe Big has, like, a question.

B (23:35)

Okay, I'm gonna put it a little bit closer.

A (23:36)

Okay, I think I recognize these. Let's choose the. You already have the key. Mainly because I don't know where that one's going. So it's curious to me.

B (23:47)

You already have the key. All right, we're gonna. That was a great choice.

A (23:52)

Good.

B (23:52)

So we're gonna see what's.

C (23:55)

So the question is.

B (23:57)

So it says you have a book about creativity that is filled entirely with quotes on creativity. Which do you think it's the best quote or thought you've ever heard about being a creative person?

C (24:12)

That's a great book, by the way.

A (24:14)

Thank you so much. Creative pep talk book. And it's filled with 50 different lettering pieces from 50 different artists. The ones that come to mind first, I think the one that comes to mind first is John Burgamin has one. And it says something like, don't try to be good, just try to be different. It's something like that. That's the concept of it. And I think that that is at the center of being an artist, because I'm not a huge. I don't really believe in any personality tests, but I enjoy indulging them because less because of the answers they give you and more because of the questions they give you. They're good at, like, self reflecting, even if they're not super effective or real maybe. Are you guys familiar with the Enneagram?

C (25:18)

No, not really.

A (25:19)

Okay. I'm not a huge Enneagram guy, but I had my little spell of diving into it and trying to figure it out. Essentially, in the Enneagram, there are. They claim there's nine personality types, and each one. Each one is kind of built on a flaw that you have. Now, I don't love that, first of all, because that's only nine flaws.

B (25:46)

And that's it. You're uniquely wr. Exactly, exactly.

A (25:51)

That's why I'm not crazy about it. And I don't think that they really sell it that way. But the more you dive in, you realize, like, at the core of this, it's negative self psychology. That's like, you're broken. Here's the particular way. And so I don't love that element of it, but I think there's some interesting ideas in there. And one of them is if you're a type 4, this is a typical artist type. And it kind of says, like, you want it. You're like a perfectionist that knows they can't be good or perfect. You're like, you want so badly to be perfect, but you are. You know that you can't be. And so you've settled for then I will be different. If I can't be good, I'll be weird. And I think there's just something about. And so the flaw of that is. And this is a flaw of mine, for sure. This is actually something that I think I struggle with. And it's that I think in order to all of the flaws, the core flaws are about what you think you need to be to be lovable. Okay. Instead of just being who you are. And so what a Ford thinks they need to be is different. They need to be original. They need to be unique. And if. And so if anything threatens my originality, that really stings, I'm like, oh, no. Like, that's where that's the center of my lovability is being weird. So I think that. And so when I get a dose of like, yeah, you're not special, bud. You're just another guy, then I can get, like, I have to, like, really work through that. But I love that. So that's what it makes me think of. But that's my favorite. That's one of my favorites. There's a bunch of good ones in there. But I like that because I also like it because this is so. That was more like therapy, Andy. But this is the relevant side for creative stuff. I like it because when we. I'm just about to do an episode on this. When we compare ourselves to our heroes or our peers even, and we start thinking about, okay, as a creative, I need to offer something different. When we think that, the first thing that comes to mind is, I need that. We translate that to, I need to offer something better. But that's not true. You can actually offer something worse. That's your taste. So that's an easier question to answer. So instead of trying to be good like them, try to be different. And so I think about it like, okay, write your few contemporaries that you're like, I'm in the realm of this, in this market. Maybe it's editorial illustration, maybe it's designing logos. Whatever it is, whatever your thing is. And you think, this is the crew I wish that I was a part of. Instead of thinking, how could I be good like that? Or how could I better them, you can think, what's something I'm willing to do? Because it's my, like, guilty pleasure taste that they wouldn't be caught dead doing. That's how I can find my own path.

B (29:21)

That also takes the pressure off.

A (29:22)

It takes the pressure off. Yeah, absolutely.

C (29:25)

Here on the podcast, we always say that be like, to make something different for an artist is a great way to stop comparing. Because, yes, you can always try to be something different or something weird instead of trying to be better than someone in particular. So I think that's a great way to stop feeling that way.

A (29:51)

Yeah, that's a great point. And I think it's much more achievable. Then I also think it gets closer to what we're going too long on. Are we going to get through all nine of these?

B (30:05)

We don't have to do them all because some maybe. Some. Maybe we'll go shorter and.

A (30:10)

Okay. All right. Because we're going pretty hard.

B (30:12)

Yeah, I know, I know.

A (30:14)

Sorry about that. But yeah, yeah, I think that's. I will. I'll say one, One other thing. I'll just say that I think also that shift is really important because I don't think making art is primarily about impressing people. So when we think about, you know, we were talking about earlier, when you go to make something and you're thinking about the feeling that you're trying to produce in them, the default feeling that we tend to go towards is impressing them. It's one of the least interesting things you can do with art, in my opinion. Like, there's so much more. So many more feelings that you could produce in somebody. And impressing them is just so ego driven.

B (31:00)

Yeah.

A (31:01)

Yeah. So I like being. And comparing yourself and trying to better somebody that's wrapped up in being impressive. Being. Yeah, better being the best. And I just don't think that's really what art's about.

C (31:15)

You think social media, like, have that make you feel like you should be impressive or you should be lovable. This is something like sometimes, like, affect your art or the way you make illustration.

A (31:33)

Me personally? Yeah, yeah, of course. And I, you know, I think. I think that one of the great things you can do is what we just talked about, which is disappoint your heroes. That's one of the best things you could do is. I always think about this in terms of Star Wars. Like, Luke becomes his own hero when he disobeys Yoda. You have to do that at some point. And like, for me, it was dumb things like calling myself Annie J. Pizza. I could tell you the list of my four favorite artists or whatever, and I'd think all four of them would think that was dumb. And so I can feel like, what do I have to lose now? Now I'm just, like, doing my thing. And I think that definitely helps.

B (32:16)

That's so cool. I. I like that you brought up the. The NDJ pizza switch. It was so cool to see it, like, from the outside, like, what is he thinking? But not, not like, in what is he thinking? It's just like, what is it?

A (32:28)

I feel disappointed you're one of those artists. No, no, I'm just kidding.

B (32:34)

No, it Was a fun thing. Okay, let's go. Next pizza.

A (32:37)

Yeah. All right, let's go. Let's go to keep digging.

B (32:43)

Let's go to keep digging. So we have this next question. It says, what do you think it's the secret or one of the secrets to keep a project going for a long time. Very similar to what we've been talking about in your project, how to stay motivated on the long run. Because motivation as we know, it's like a finite supply. So you have to be a good manager of motivation.

A (33:11)

I definitely think so. I think it makes me think of a couple things. One, Hank Green. So John and Hank Green are like famous YouTubers, if people aren't familiar. And I've heard Hank Green talk about dirty fuel versus clean fuel when it comes to motivation. And that dirty fuel is like, what we were talking about, like, trying to impress people or trying to win or trying to get followers or whatever. And he kind of says, like, you can run on dirty fuel sometimes. Like, it's not that it's not all bad. It's just that it's not sustainable. It's not. It's like fossil fuels. Like, okay, we're using them, but it's. We're running out of time, and it's not the greatest choice. But. So there are a lot of things like that. And then I think the clean fuel is. It has to be attached to. I think it usually is attached to the greater good or something, and something deeply personal to you. And the way I think about that is the only projects that I've been able to stick to are the ones where they have personal significance for me. So the podcast has personal significance because I have so much. I'm adhd. I'm neurodivergent. A lot of my friends and family are neurodivergent. And I watch myself and them struggle to just get up and get on with stuff so much and see how many things are not designed with people like us in mind and how much creativity and strategy and effort it takes to live well if you're one of these people. And so. And I. And I had a front seat to watching my mom, as a very different kind of weirdo, really, really struggle through her whole journey. And it. And even if I. You know, sometimes we'll have someone at the house, like, there was a guy who came and worked on our furnace a couple years ago, and he mentioned he was adhd. And I listened. I could just pick up on all these little. He was telling me little stories and stuff. He went to the. He was in the military, which is just a real. I can't imagine being an ADHD person in the military. And I could just feel his burden and grief. And so that, for me, that's the kind of fuel that means I could literally do this forever, because I just. I just care about it. It's just. It's something that's so real to me, but then also manifests in storytelling. I think I had a book coach, like a book writing coach for just a few sessions. This was probably like six or seven years ago. And I was telling him this idea of, like, this is what I want to make. This is the next kind of thing I want to write about. And he's like, oh, it sounds really cool, but why do you want to write it? What does it have to do with your life? Why does it matter to you? And I think that's such a valuable insight because if the story you're telling is, you lived it, you are willing to. You can recenter yourself back on that every time you get overwhelmed, every time you're tired, every time you get discouraged, you can go back to, well, this is why I'm telling it. And you can feel the emotion of it. And that emotion is such a motivator. So it reminds me also of James Gunn. He has a really good example of this with the Superman movie. I don't think he ever came out and said this, but maybe he did. But I was listening to him in an interview talk about his life over the past few years. And the story of Superman, the new movie, mirrors his life of getting canceled and fired from Marvel and then redeeming himself through this comeback. And that same thing is what happens in the movie. That's what happens to Superman. He essentially gets canceled, and the people around him know who he really is and support him. And that's what happened to James Gunn. And so I think you have to tap into your sincere, meaningful experiences and that if you're creating from that place, you're gonna have a well of energy that you can't get if you're just trying to be cool. Trying to be cool is like, dirty fuel. It just doesn't. Yeah, it just doesn't.

B (37:43)

Super small dirty.

A (37:45)

Yes, it is. It really is.

B (37:47)

And do you. Do you keep that in mind now, like, with any project that you make? Like, what. It's the thing that it's like.

A (37:54)

I do. Even if it's like one of the projects we did that you might. That might not be obviously meaningful. A book that I made with Kyle Shealy it's called a pizza with everything on it. Yeah, to me. So that book, if you read it and kids read it, it's like ridiculously dumb and weird and the ending is. And they recreate the universe out of pizza. Great. It's like really like, what is this about? What is the point? And I've come to think of that. I've come to think of pizza in that book as the symbol of indulging kids. It's an indulgent food. It's indulging their desire for fun and nonsense. And so I remember the books that I had when I was a kid that saw me as a kid, as a person, not as a potential adult. And so I like. One of my favorite books was called the Stinky Cheese man by John Cesca. Are you guys familiar with this book?

B (39:05)

No, I love the title, but sounds great.

A (39:09)

It's so good. And it's full of irreverent, weird, nonsensical things. And I remember just feeling like this book was for me, this wasn't. I don't even know if my teachers want me to have this book. It has no redeemable value other than it was fun to read. And so I think even in something like that, that's nonsensical. I'm gonna try to center on what matters about this to me. And it really does help me with the longer term stuff. There's client stuff that's a lot more short term, that maybe I don't always find the bigger picture other than feeding my children or something, but that's meaningful. But those longer personal ones, I think you need a little bit more incentive.

B (39:58)

That's really cool to keep in mind. Almost like a professional part of the of, like your. Your method. Like, okay, this project, what does it mean to me? And then also the timeline and all the important stuff, but just as important. Okay, just, just clean, feel, man, clean.

A (40:16)

Fuel, man, keep, man. The creative path, like any good journey, requires a guide to help you find your way. You might be thinking, Andy, I don't have access to creative masters, but with masterclass, you do. I loved Amy Poehler's class on improv. I'm a comedy nerd, but also as a public speaker, I wanted to boost my confidence in dealing with all the unexpected situations that I always find myself in on stage. So this class titled Prepare to be Unprepared was just so perfect and inspiring for me. I especially love the lesson on finding the game within improv. I also want to check out James Clear's habits class and Esther Perel's relationships1. With plans starting at $10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 plus classes taught by the world's best business writers, chefs and more. I love that it has an audio mode so you can listen while doing chores or driving. And there's no risk. Every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com Pep Talk for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com Pep Talk masterclass.com Pep Talk.

D (41:50)

Coca Cola for the big, for the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers. Risk takers for the optimists, pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts. The thinkers and the doers for old friends and new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you.

A (42:21)

I'm gonna pick one that's calling me even though it's not my favorite of the ones that are on there. And it's the middle which is the. Don't fall for it. And it's the little Instagram mousetrap.

B (42:33)

Yeah, right. Don't fall for says it can be really hard not to measure the success of a drawing or project by social media metrics. How do you personally, personally evaluate the success of what you make and like trying to avoid, trying to avoid serving the algorithm?

A (42:53)

Yeah. So I. Okay, so for me, the foundation of making stuff is taste. And I know when I use that word I feel like. I'm trying to imbue it, I'm trying to add new meaning to it. So it's not just like, oh, you like good things. It's taste almost in the same way that your tongue works. So it's not just, oh, you have a discerning eye and you know, the good stuff and the bad stuff, it's less about that and it's more about how you receive it, like your taste buds. So I think that you're only, yes, you can learn craft, that's a big deal. But the thing you need as you move through it is the taste to know whether this tastes good to you or not. I like to think of it as like, as you're making the recipe, you're tasting it as you go to see, like whether this is working. Right. And so that's how I think about taste. And what I mean by that is the feeling that I'm trying to produce in the audience. I should Be feeling that while I'm making it, I should be. So when it comes to, like, we just wrote a book that we're pitching, and it's a longer book, it's a story, and we've been working on it for a long time, and then we got it to a place where I could read through it. Like, it's not perfect, it's messy, whatever, but all the beats of the story are there. And I felt the emotion that we were going for three times while reading it. And what that did was I told. So my wife and I. Sophie wrote it together. And I said to her, I was like, okay, we can pitch it. And I do not care what they think about it. I want them to buy it, but I don't care if they like it. I don't care if they get. Literally does not matter to me. And I. The reason I say that so emphatically is because there were lots of times in my creative journey where I could never imagine that being true. I could never imagine getting to a place in my career where I would make something. And I literally don't care what people think about it. But I think as you. When you get into those places where you're really making to your own taste, you just feel like there's nothing better that I could do. This is what I like. So, you know, I'm very happy to have done that. And one of the things that happens is we've had a couple books that were pretty successful, but there's nothing better than Invisible Things. That book that we made, when I go to a school or I go do a reading or something, and a lot of the kids like it. They seem to engage with it, but there's always, like, every once in a while, there's like, one kid that comes to me later and is like, I love this book. Like, this book is weird. And, like, I've never seen anything like this book. And I'm like, that's it. That's the only thing is that I knew that if I like this, someone out there is gonna feel the same thing I'm feeling. And so to me, that's why taste. And I like to think of it as finding your creative super taste. So super tasters is a real term that's used for people that have tons of taste buds. Yeah. So one thing that I didn't know. Yeah, a super taster. And the thing is, is that people. I didn't know this, but your tongue, every person's tongue has. There's a wide variety of how many taste buds a tongue could have. So some people have a few hundred, and then other people have thousands. And so a supertaster is. And you might actually be really picky if you're a supertaster. That's kind of funny. Like, some people know that I love story, and they just expect that. I'm like, reading all these books and consuming all these movies all the time, and I'm like, I'm super picky. Like, I am super picky before I pick something, before I indulge in it, because I have really specific taste and I'm sensitive to it. And so I think about taste that way. It's like your receptivity. How much can you pick up on the nuance of what's going on and how it's working and what the recipe is? And so if you can make stuff that's your taste and it really does make you feel something, I think that's the key. Cause you're like, okay, they don't get it. I will try to make it. If people that have my taste don't get it, then I will go back and think, okay, how could I fix it somehow? Cause it's not communicating, but the other piece of it. Sorry I'm ranting on this, Bill, but I'm very passionate about this because I.

C (48:19)

Think it's super tasty.

A (48:22)

It's a super problem for. For creative people, this social media thing. And one of the things that the other thing I try to remember is like, okay, if I gave this story to somebody that I know, we have the same taste in this kind of story, and it doesn't do anything for them, that's relevant feedback. That is okay. That's relevant feedback. But the Internet, especially now more than ever, things like Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, all the stuff, it's really maximized. You know how earlier we were talking about when you're trying to produce a feeling that the go to can easily be, like, impressing people. Right. That's one feeling. The Internet is like that, but it's a different feeling. Or it might be a collection of a few feelings, or it could be. YouTube is one kind of feeling. Instagram is one kind of feeling. TikTok's one kind of feeling. But they're all around what makes something viral.

B (49:28)

Yeah.

A (49:29)

And the thing about that is none of my favorite pieces of art would go viral. Almost. Almost none. Like, if I think about my favorite song, there's nothing about that that produces the kind of feeling that makes it viral. That makes it the kind of thing that People share rapidly. My favorite movie the same. There's nothing about that where you're like, oh man, I've got to retweet this. Like it's a totally different feeling that doesn't succeed on the Internet in a viral way. And so for me, I'm always thinking about, I try to take it with a grain of salt. Like I'm not even in the business of making virality and a lot of the viral things don't have the weight that I appreciate. Now, I'm not saying it's not a skill. It is a skill. It's a skill I respect. It's just not a game that I, I can't play it. Cause I'm not good at it. And you know, every once in a while, every, you know, the other thing is, the other part of virality is it's literally like if the business world only interviewed like the business magazines and all the books, imagine all the business books were written by people that had won the lottery. You'd be like, how did they do it? They don't know because it was by chance. And so for me, that's how I kind of think about like if I continue to make stuff that is my taste, typically like every five years something goes a little bit viral and that kind of picks up some new things into my atmosphere and that's great. But I can learn, like if I just keep doing my thing, every once in a while it'll kind of hit a different thread or a nerve and take off. But I don't need to concern myself with that too much.

B (51:18)

Yeah, I think that a lot of. First of all, I love that we are diving in, in this topic specifically because a lot of people that hear that listen to our show, they're like on the younger side. And I think that a lot of us have our, our taste buds, our digital content, social media taste buds, like fucked up. And we're only been tasting that. So my question would be like, what do you think could be a good, like ginger or wasabi or whatever that cleans your taste buds to like focus on what's your taste and not like the social media taste.

A (51:58)

I love that you said that. I was hoping you were going to go to the palate cleanser because I thought that's such a good, such a good idea. Yeah, I think there's a couple things, but I'll say this. One of the things I'm really aware of is we have these different modes in our brain. One is like the achievement awareness, which is like making Money succeeding, ego driven kind of stuff. And then the other one is this more transcendent, relational, emotional brain. And obviously we have a bunch more going on up there, but we have those two different things. And one of the things that really was enlightening to me was reading in this book, it's called the Master and His Emissary. And it's about those two kind of modes. And they say that this achievement, this achievement brain, when you're there, it doesn't respect the other one. But when you're over here in the more awakened awareness or right brain, you could say it respects the other one. So as an example, I don't know any artist that doesn't respect the skills of a person that can do taxes. Now, we might not be huge fans of them or whatever. We'll poke humor at them. We're all like, they can do something that we can't. I don't even know what they're doing. I'm respecting that. But this side doesn't really feel the same way about artists. And that's why I think actually that's a whole other topic on AI. Cause I think the reason they're the ones quick to want to replace us is because they don't respect us. Whereas we could actually replace them much easier with robots. Like, it's meant to do math. Like it's right there, man. But we didn't leap to that because we don't want to. Because we're like, we get it, we respect them anyway. That's a whole other. Whole other thing. But the reason I brought it up is because we all have these modes. And when we get. When I find myself in the achievement brain, which is I need to go viral. I need to get my stuff out there, I need to make more money, whatever it is. I don't even respect the other side of me. And so I have to. When I find myself in this zone, that's when I have to find the palate cleansers. And what I've learned is there's a few things that will push me into that other side and remember, like, oh, yeah, like I actually care more about art than I do money or whatever. And so for me, I think it comes with an awareness of that's something you need. And then you can make your own list of like, these are my. This is my ginger. One of mine right now is this podcast called Working it out with Mike Birbiglia. He's a standup comedian. They're always talking about. They're really working out comedy Bits and they're getting into the craft and they're in awe of when something works. And every time I listen to that, I'm like, art. I love art. That's what I want to do. And so anything like that. And then also, like, yeah, I have another practice that I created a little project with my buddy Andrew Nair, who's a designer and concept artist, where it's 100 song playlist of your top 100 songs of all time. And you can change it, you know, and you can be. It's a working document, so it always changes. But there's something about. If I put that on almost anytime, those songs are designed to, like, get me into that state where I'm like, oh, this feels like I'm entering another world. And so, yeah, little things like that I think are really important to cleanse your palate with.

C (56:17)

And for a long time created pep talk. Never been on social media. Like, really true. Never been on Instagram.

A (56:25)

Yeah.

C (56:25)

I think YouTube is like a recent thing. So what do you think is the positive side for an artist to be on social media? Like, maybe it's none.

A (56:38)

No, I think there is. I think there is. I think if you're. If you're strategic with it, it can be very useful. Okay. So I would say there's three parts. There's three parts to a business when it comes to like making sales. So you have the discovery, which is people finding out about you. Then there's the trust, which is people developing trust enough to, okay, they heard about you, now they're learning about you, and then they're buying. Those are the three. So sales is at the bottom. And the thing about that is we almost only think about this one. We only think about, well, my big problem is no one knows I exist. Here's what I'll do. I'll go viral, everyone will know me, and then I'll figure out what the heck I'm gonna sell. No, like, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. I know people that have hundreds of thousands and even millions of followers and it didn't solve all their business problems. Right. And actually works way better if you go the other way. And so I think that, you know, bringing up YouTube, like we had different growth strategies for the podcast before we went on YouTube, but they were a lot more slow and steady. They were word of mouth and then they were like proximity with other podcasts by pod swapping and stuff like that. Both of those are like slow term growth, like really putting in work to grow. And so really the podcast was. It started with sales. Now I'll just say real quick. I always like to point out, I'm adhd. I can't do anything I don't want to do. So not long term, I can do it in the short term for a little while, but if I do it, if I try to do it long term, I start self destructing and getting terrible habits and, you know, self destruct. So I say that because I wanted to do the podcast because it was an extension of what I was already doing. The first time that I ever got an illustration job. All I wanted to do and all I did was call my friends back home and was like, here's how I did it. I created a website, I emailed these blogs. I'm doing it, man. You should try this. Try it. Like, I would just. And I just love doing that. Like, I want to. I get a lot of. I get so much satisfaction from figuring something out and helping somebody else do it. I just like doing it. But when I. And so what I wanted to do is I want to do talks, because I got that satisfaction from those talks. I loved that feeling of like, I'm doing something meaningful. And so the sales part of the podcast was the product, which is where I think you should start. Sales at the bottom, not up here, because it's easier to do this well. Doing this well is almost impossible. Doing discovery well is almost impossible. But doing sales, you can learn the craft. It's a matter of like, learning. And so the podcast started with I wanted to get talks, I wanted to get the speaking gigs. Then the next layer up was, okay, I'm gonna create the podcast as a way of building trust that I can do talks. So that's what that personal project is always that trust level. It's always like, show them that you can do it. And so the podcast was. That's why it started as a solo podcast, was because I wanted it to be like a portfolio of talks. And then I can start thinking about, once I have those two things established, then I can think about discovery. And then that one, even then social media is not the best way to do that. Like I said, I think the two best way to do that are, well, word of mouth, which you're not completely in control of, but the one that you are in control of is we'll just call it collaborations. Like being part of a scene enough to be able to make features on their songs, and you're on their songs and they're on your songs and, you know, whatever they're on your podcast, you're on theirs, whatever. And so that one. That's how I would do it. And then. Yes. So then after we did that for 10 years, then we got on YouTube, and now YouTube has some of the positive qualities of social media, where there's no other way for a podcast. If you're getting 1000 views a video, if you're getting 1000 listens per episode of your podcast, almost nothing can happen on an audio podcast, where the next one you get 40,000, it's almost impossible. Whereas that happens on YouTube. And so after all of that building, I think it makes sense to be on social media and keep throwing stuff out and hoping that every once in a while, every five years, you'll win the lottery and you'll get a little bit of a boost of some kind. But if you don't have a product and you don't have any way for them to go deeper on that product and get to know it, it's really a waste of time.

B (61:57)

That's an awesome way. That's an awesome advice. And also that happened a lot when Instagram used to do this features, when they had a lot of years ago that they have this feature page. And a lot of artists that we know ended up there and went from 300 followers to 100,000, and then they became just a follower graveyard.

C (62:18)

Yeah.

B (62:18)

And it just worked against them, like, hard.

A (62:22)

That can definitely happen. For sure. Yeah, for sure. And if you don't. If you don't have that. If you don't have the business structure, it not gonna. It's not gonna pay off. Like, if they don't know how to hire you, they. They're. All they're gonna do is follow you. And that it doesn't actually do. There are things you can do with that, but it's just. It's not very valuable, honestly.

C (62:41)

You can make like an army of bots or you can be like a Friends are for Zombies. Like something it's not. It's not very functional.

B (62:48)

Okay, well, go for the last one, because we know that we have extended. But we love all of our questions and all of your answers. So let's go for the last one.

A (62:57)

Okay, I'm gonna pick the one. The last one that's in the middle row.

C (63:04)

All right.

A (63:05)

Which is from a project I did called Right side Out.

B (63:08)

Yeah, that was an awesome, very Feelings project.

A (63:12)

Yeah, big feelings.

B (63:14)

Big feelings. All right. So it says AI is discouraging a lot of illustrators, especially young illustrators, but all kinds of illustrators who are just Starting out, what do you think human made art has as an advantage over AI art?

A (63:30)

Great question. And I'm going to. Okay, I've been thinking a lot about this. I've tried really hard to not talk about AI a ton on my podcast because we just are inundated. We are an avalanche of AI information every day, everywhere you look. And I just want to. Part of me is like, I'm going to make a podcast where most of the time that doesn't even get mentioned because we get a little break from it. You know what I mean? But at the same time, I will address it on occasion because it's such a huge thing, obviously. Okay, I'll say two things. My two main thoughts around AI. The first one is so over the past, I get really encouraged by the idea of cancel culture. Very inspired by this. And the reason why is because it's not really. Because I have a huge stance on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing or. Can you separate the art from the artist? Should you? Is it a case by case thing? I don't really know. I don't really know the answer to any of those things. But the thing that makes me inspired by it is the fact that we feel conflicted about consuming art from people that we think are monsters. Makes me think we're going to feel conflicted about consuming art from robots. If we don't want to consume art from monsters, we probably don't want to consume art from robots. Does that make sense? Like, the humanity of the artist already mattered before robots started doing their thing. Because when we found out that, like, for me, it's a case by case thing, but like, when I found out that Bill Cosby had all these. Had admitted to some of these things even on record, like, I couldn't enjoy what he did ever again. Mainly because it was such a. It was so dramatically different to the person he was pretending to portray. That ruined it for me. Right? And so what that tells me is there's something about art that is about a human connecting to a human and we can't get away from that completely. And so I think there's always going to be a case for that. It's the same reason why, you know, gorillas aren't like obsessed with us. Like, even if AI and robots just totally blow us out of the water, we are still gonna be looking for humans. Cause that's what we are. You know what I mean? And so I think. So I think that part of me feels encouraged by that. No matter how all this AI stuff plays out, which I don't think anybody can predict or we can't really understand how this is gonna go. I think at the end of the day, I mean, it also helps that my taste is very lo fi. I like like very human broken stuff. That's the kind of stuff that I like. And so I feel like we're, I think what we're. Yeah, so that's one thing that's very encouraging to me. The other side of it, I haven't heard anybody really talk about this, but I mentioned it earlier. I thought about how, yes, these, these achievement brain dominant people were very quick to disrespect the arts. Very quick to be like, we could replace you like that, Boom, we don't even need you anymore. And that hurts. But also the other side, the artists, I don't even see them thinking, hmm, could we replace the publishers, the record labels, the accountants, the like, could we do that? Like what would it. So on the other side, in terms of doing your taxes and writing your contracts and understanding if a contract is trying to take advantage of you or if they're loopholes or those sorts of things, like all of that logic based stuff like AI is going to crush that. It's going to be, it's built for that. It's ones and zeros. It just makes so much sense. Now. I personally don't want to run to replace the people that do that stuff. However, there may come a time where there is no option because they've completely taken us out of the equation now. I don't know. Still, I have big problems with the environmental issue of it and all that. But it's just, it's a hypothetical at the end of the day. Here's what I really think is true. If we put in front of general, the general public two options. And one option is this is a record label of executives that are billionaires and their musicians are AI. That's your, that's option A. Option B is real people that are musicians and their label is AI. Which one is gonna be interesting to people. It's super obvious. Like it's, there's no question. And so I don't actually want to move into a future where I replace all the people I work with outside of the creative sphere with robots and AI. But it does give me hope to realize like the creative side isn't the thing that the consumer I think is trying to outsource. Yeah. You know what I mean? Now we could get into all the other aspects of it of like whether there's any creative value there, whether interesting things are going to come out of that, whether. Whether it's just a completely unethical thing. These are all really like, I think, interesting, important conversations. But at the end of the day, those two thoughts are the things that make me feel a lot of hope about the future of art with people.

B (69:54)

Thank you. I almost cried. But yeah, no, yeah, for sure.

C (69:59)

In the robots part, I love it.

B (70:02)

No, but yeah, I think it. When you talk it out and when you. When I listen to it, it sounds like kind of obvious because it's like, of course I would choose option B or whatever. But yeah, I think that, that sometimes it's like what you said, it's so in everyday and especially in the creative world, like AI, AI, AI, that sometimes we think it's hard to take a distance and just think about like the human part of it. It's just.

A (70:32)

Thanks, man.

B (70:32)

I think you need to listen.

A (70:34)

Yeah, I really, I really appreciate it and I. And I think it's true. And I think, I don't think, I don't mean to downplay. I do think there are ways in which it's going to make life difficult for people like us. For sure. In the short term, I think there's almost no way around some hard times with that. But I think in the long term, I think we're as creative folks, I think we're in a kind of a good place in terms of what AI tends to automate, you know.

B (71:05)

Yeah. A lot of people that we talk to, especially like under 20, they like, we get really sad that a lot of of them are like, contemplating not going through like the creative path just because of that. So it's very hardcore to see that scenario, I think.

A (71:23)

You know, and I totally. I'm a big believer in what I would call interpreting your daydream. So I don't think just follow your dreams. I do think have dreams and interpret them into your reality. Like, how could this actually happen in your life? So I am a big believer in being. Having a dose of realism to your idealism. But at the same time, you have to take. You have to balance those two out because guess what? Ten years ago, all you heard from all the experts was go into coding. You better learn how to code. If you don't know how to code, you're screwed in the future. And then robots came for them. Like, you can't decide your life and future purely based on speculation of what the future's gonna be like. No one's ever right about that. That's the thing. We never have anybody that's right. The people that were right, like, five times, they're the people in the. Like, that person might have been psychic. They were right about. They were kind of right. No. Like, we don't know. We don't know how it's gonna be. But I like this thing that. Speaking of billionaire tech billionaires, this is a thing that comes from Jeff Bezos, who I'm not a fanboy of. But this point I do think is valid. And he just said, at Amazon, they try not to predict the future because you never win. You never win when you predict the future. But they try to know what doesn't seem to change. And so those two points about AI, that's what I'm thinking about, is what has pretty much always been true about people. What's always been true about art. It's been about people connecting to people. That's always been true. That probably won't change even if AI gets into the mix, which it will for some people's practice, but it'll still be about people connecting to people. I think that that's for sure.

B (73:13)

Great fucking bottom Lane. Very grateful to hear that that's how we think ourselves. But it's great to just, like, put it out there.

C (73:21)

Just clean fuel, man.

A (73:23)

Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

B (73:25)

I'm gonna be sticking with that.

A (73:27)

Yeah.

B (73:27)

Right. So, Andy, we'll go to the last part of the podcast. It's called. We're gonna just do a little singing. It's called Linking Friends. Linking Friends on the podcast is this place where we recommend projects, artists or whatever, organizations, whatever you want, that are related to creative world and that you think that they deserve ice and love.

A (73:56)

That's a good question. Let me. I want to make sure I do a good answer for that. I will say I'm just about to have Seth Worley on the show, and he's a writer and director, and he has his new film just came out this year. It was in theaters, I think, like, over the summer. It's called Sketch, and it's a great family movie. It's kind of a throwback to, like, the 80s and 90s family films. It's got, like, a lot of humor, but also kind of horror for, like, a PG movie. And it's really, really great. So that's the thing that comes to mind. If you haven't seen that, I would go check that out. It's a really good time. It's starring Tony Hale from Veep and Arrested Development. And I think it's pretty great. Tons of hearts.

B (74:49)

Awesome. So we, we're gonna see if it's on Mexican theaters. Yeah, our producer is going crazy for that.

D (74:56)

Yes.

A (74:57)

Like, you gotta see that. It's fantastic.

C (75:02)

Go and see a sketch right now.

B (75:03)

We're gonna give love to Franerd that.

A (75:06)

Yes.

B (75:06)

If you haven't. If you people listening to this haven't heard the last episode of Franard in Creative Pep Talk, go listen to that.

C (75:14)

And Fabiolita, Fabiola Lara, she's called Draws in Spanish. And it's a great, like, how do you say, like Spanglish kind of podcast.

B (75:26)

Yeah.

A (75:26)

Yeah. Big fan of both of those creators. Yeah, they make great stuff.

B (75:31)

All right, Andy, thank you so much for your time. We're honored to have you here and I. And we think that a lot of people would be, will be and are very excited to have listened to this.

A (75:47)

Thank you.

B (75:48)

Until next time, have a great day and see you around the Internets.

A (75:52)

See you later, guys.

B (75:53)

Thank you very much.

E (76:01)

Hi, it's Reese Gorman, congressional reporter and host of the brand new podcast On Notice. This is the new podcast from Notice the nonpartisan newsroom covering politics and policy in Washington, D.C. each week I'll bring you real conversations with members of Congress and those who make the Hill run. And it's packed into just 30 minutes, so you can learn a lot without taking too much time out of your busy day. Join me for On Notice. That's Notice spelt N O T U s available every Monday wherever you get your podcast or on YouTube.

A (76:37)

Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry, market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter@andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our creative career path handbooklet. And the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y'. All.