← Creative Pep Talk
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- [00:01]
A
You know, I give the creative journey a lot of fanfare, a lot of celebrating the glory of the creative journey. And yet you know as well as I do that it's not all great. There are lots of times on your path where you feel like, I don't think I can keep going. Especially when you feel like the where the target that you have in mind, the destination you have in mind, you know, you may never reach it. And that can make it so difficult to keep going. Today on the show, I have a friend of mine, his name is Seth Worley. He is a director, he's a writer, he knows his visual effects, he's worked in that area and he's a filmmaker that made the movie sketch that came out this year. And I've known seth for.
- [00:59]
Probably 10 years at least. And I've watched him from the start of this idea of a movie all the way to making it a reality and it being in theaters and starring Hollywood legends Tony Hale, Darcy Cardin, like these very beloved actors and get celebrated by all the critics. It's got a 95% from the critics on Rotten Tomatoes. He's got all these comparisons to Spielberg and it's just been the most amazing. I feel so lucky to have been able to watch that journey unfold because even before he had that idea 10 years ago or whatever it was, he had been working his way to be a feature length filmmaker his whole life. And it was, it's just been. I felt so privileged to have had these phone calls with them over the years, you know, a handful of phone calls where he really felt like, I don't know if I should keep doing this. I don't know if this is going to go anywhere. I've loved this fricking idea and I want to make this happen. And it feels like maybe there's something to it and just to watch it go from that to where he is today and go watch his movie and just be. It's a, it's an incredible movie. It's a great throwback kind of family film that's a little bit horror, a little bit thriller, adventure comedy. They don't make these movies anymore. And my family loved it. It was just, it's just awesome. And I wanted to have him come on the show to talk about this journey, to be a little bit of like an oasis for you if you are in the thick of it. Feeling like, I don't even know why I'm bothering. I don't know if I should just give up and, and be encouragement to that and then also I just wanted to talk shop with him about story stuff and creative stuff. And so we get really into that kind of stuff as well. It was an absolutely fantastic chat with Seth and stick around till the end. I'm going to come back with our creative call to adventure. A way to put some of the ideas from the show to work in your practice today. It's called take the low road, little tongue in cheek kind of thing. I'm not actually saying to lower your ethics, but if you're comparing yourself to legends in your field that you know you're never gonna be better than, how can you find a way to uniquely stand out and do your own thing? That's what we're gonna talk about at the end. I'll be back for that little bit. For now, enjoy this fabulous chat with Seth Worley on the creative journey. It's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll l.
- [03:44]
Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.
- [03:55]
This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. I love Squarespace. I'm a long time user. One of the things I love about Squarespace is I will use. It's so easy to use that I will use it to create pitches. If I'm pitching a book or I'm pitching something to a client, I will use a Squarespace page in my website and I'll build the whole thing there. Then you don't have these clunky like document PDFs clogging up people's inboxes and it looks super slick. If you want to see one of those that I use all the time, I did one for my series right side out andyjpiza.com RSO and you can, you can see how I create a little pitch summary of that project. Go to squarespace.com pep talk, get building for free and trying it out and testing it. And then when you're ready to launch, use promo code pep talk. All one word for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks. Squarespace.
- [04:56]
The creative path, like any good journey, requires a guide to help you find your way. You might be thinking, Andy, I don't have access to Creative masters, but with Masterclass you do. I loved Amy Poehler's class on improv. I'm a comedy nerd, but also as a public speaker. I wanted to boost my confidence in dealing with all the unexpected situations that I always find myself in on stage. So this class titled Prepare to be Unprepared was just so perfect and inspiring for me. I especially love the lesson on finding the game within Improv. I also want to check out James Clear's habits class and Esther Perel's relationships one with plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 plus class taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more. I love that it has an audio mode so you can listen while doing chores or driving. And there's no risk. Every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays. Sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com Pep Talk for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.com Pep Talk masterclass.com Pep Talk.
- [06:10]
First thing I'll just say out the gate. We frickin loved the movie. Of course.
- [06:15]
B
Thanks man.
- [06:16]
A
Of course I did. My family loved the movie. We've talked about it a ton. We laugh so much. Oh that's the kids are so well written. Like we're writing some stuff with kids in it. So we're so inspired by this. All of your, all of your dialogue. But my favorite one is where they're getting attacked and the kid talks about how his. His phone isn't a phone. It's actually an ipod. You can't do calls on it. That line is so that line was.
- [06:44]
B
Originally twice as long.
- [06:45]
A
Really?
- [06:46]
B
Originally like we kept cutting back to him being like, you can't FaceTime though. So it's kind of like a phone and it go. And it goes for a lot longer. But my, my, my, my, my collaborators begged me to cut it down because it really. Yeah, because that's like man, that means the world to me. The Sal. The kid dialogue, it's just me mining the past like 18 years of my life of having children.
- [07:11]
A
How did you. Because we're thinking about that. We're thinking like, because we, we're actually like. I've noticed lots of my favorite comedy is basically adults doing that. Like Tim Robinson and Will Ferrell are very much like just talking like kids 100%. And I, the question.
- [07:29]
B
It's from the, the Friendship. We can talk about Tim Robinson for eight hours.
- [07:32]
A
Oh yeah, sure.
- [07:34]
B
The, the, the not deleted scenes, but it's just the, the long takes of Conor o' Malley and Oh yeah. And Tim Robinson at the Friendship. Yes, I watched all of them and, and Tim multiple times says what kind of guy are you? What the kind of guy are you? And what kind of guy are you? Is such a kid question.
- [07:53]
A
Yes.
- [07:54]
B
I love it. I love it.
- [07:55]
A
I also. He like, he says, what'd you get up to? What'd you get up to in New York? I've watched so many of those clips. Every time one comes up on my feed, I watch the who and they're always different.
- [08:06]
B
There's.
- [08:07]
A
Yeah, there's so many takes.
- [08:08]
B
Yeah.
- [08:09]
A
Every time I see it, I think, I've seen this and I'm like, no.
- [08:11]
B
And then it's new content, exact same.
- [08:13]
A
Yeah, it's really good. But that line about the. The phone, was that a real thing or is it a thing where you're like. We were thinking, like, oh, kids are either pedantic about things or they want to say things that were said to them, and it doesn't matter what the context is. So, yeah, I wondered how you. How you got that.
- [08:35]
B
Oh, I mean, I think it's more the pedantic nature. Like, that's the perfect word that I haven't used at all when talking about this movie and how kids talk.
- [08:43]
A
But that was my wife's word for it.
- [08:44]
B
And I thought, yeah, my God, it's perfect. Because it's exactly. What is so funny about, like, lines like that and things like that. As the kids are. There's, like, a whole scene where they're arguing about. There's a scene from Sketch where they're at the table and they're talking about Minecraft and specifically talking about the, like, slash kill at E commands that you put into the Minecraft, like, terminal or whatever it is. Like, that scene was me watching my kids. Kids play and then asking. Going to them and later and asking specific questions. Like, I feel like I've seen you do this, you know, like, you've done this to me. Like, what. When we're playing together, what is this? And they walk me through it and I write it in the script, and then producers later are like, I don't understand a word of this. And.
- [09:27]
I finally found the perfect response to that, which was like, well, do you know how a warp core works? Yeah. And. Or how, like, whatever. Any of the terms from the Millennium Falcon or from Star wars or anything. But the first thing I thought was Star Trek was like, do you know how to warp core works? Like, no. I was like, are there Star Trek movies you like? And like, yes. And I think it's fine. Like, I think. But the fact that kids are so detailed, so meticulous about that. You say every detail right and get every detail right and will fight you on it. It's. And it's. It's funny to us as adults because we Know, none of it matters.
- [10:03]
A
Yeah, it's so funny. And they get so in the weeds about stuff. That's a interesting thing of like learning to sell things, learning to put things in a nutshell, like that kind of thing that you get more as an adult, as an ADHD person. I'm still not great at that.
- [10:16]
B
You never get it. No, you never actually get it. Which is why writing this probably came a little more naturally to me than it might to other people. But like.
- [10:22]
A
Right? Yeah.
- [10:22]
B
I mean, the gist of it is with Kit, with like writing kids dialogue is like, I learned from like watching like, you know, there's Phil Ord and Chris Miller and the Lego movies. Like, for example, like Lego movies are great examples of like, this is storytelling from a kid's perspective. But also a huge inspiration on Sketch was Sleepless in Seattle and the dialogue between Sam, Tom Hanks character, son and. Or wait, Jonah is the kid and Sam is Tom Hanks character. And the dialogue between father and son in that so much of it is the kid just rambling about stuff, like about grown up stuff and Tom Hanks barely paying attention and. And then like realizing he is, he has been. He is losing in a. A race that he had no idea he was running, like, with his kid. And it just this, this, this idea that you don't need to put extra mustard on kids on stuff. Kids say, like the stuff that naturally comes out of their mouths is inherently funny to us because it's real and true to them and often way more serious than it needs to be.
- [11:30]
A
And I'm trying, I'm doing a lot of school visits with picture books and I'm trying to note down things these kids ask me about one of them. Oh, no. Sometimes yes. But like, they asked me how many YouTube subscribers I had.
- [11:44]
B
No.
- [11:47]
I don't answer questions.
- [11:48]
A
I was like, look, I've only been doing this for like a year. Okay. It's a new thing. And I didn't know if I said, oh, 17,000. If they were gonna be like, okay. But I said it and they're like, okay. Whoa. All right. You call yourself a YouTuber. 17,000 kids used.
- [12:03]
B
When I, when my kids were really little, I'd go do like career days or whatever.
- [12:07]
A
Yeah.
- [12:07]
B
And a couple of them, the kids just started asking me if I knew various huge celebrities.
- [12:17]
Was always, no.
- [12:18]
A
Yeah.
- [12:19]
B
They can't test this. I should just say yes to them.
- [12:22]
A
Yeah, of course I do. And one of my, My favorite one from last week was, I have a question.
- [12:30]
Why do you have a mustache? And I like your mustache.
- [12:36]
B
Perfect order.
- [12:37]
A
I know, I loved it. I was just like, question, why do.
- [12:41]
B
You have a mustache? And I like your mustache.
- [12:44]
A
Side note, I'm loving it. I love the mustache.
- [12:48]
B
For context, I like your mustache.
- [12:49]
A
Yeah. Just so you know, it's not like a question of I hate it. Why would you do that?
- [12:53]
B
It's more judgment here.
- [12:54]
A
Yeah.
- [12:55]
B
I'm looking for advice.
- [12:57]
A
It was awesome. I. I just love that. So I'm trying to note all these down because it's just so interesting and funny. So, okay, here's what I thought. I want to start with one thing. You're.
- [13:10]
So. Look, I'm going to pile on a little bit of compliments, but I'm asking, I'm requesting. Look, you can be regular you, funny you the whole way through this podcast and you can do it in this next thing. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'm asking, I'm requesting a. To just not be self deprecating. Let it hit you. You're witty.
- [13:34]
B
You know me too well. Am I that easy today? Look, I think if you start your compliments with one, why do you have a mustache? Why? And then the compliments.
- [13:48]
A
Let me try to work that way. Let me try to word it that way. Why did you make this movie? And by the way, I love this movie. My. The real question is, I've known you for about 10 years. I think we met about 10 years ago. And I remember. I'm not. We don't need to go deep into this. But for context, we were making Leaky Timbers stuff with Joey Ellis and Luke Flowers.
- [14:12]
B
Yeah.
- [14:13]
A
And we. I remember going there and I was like, very overwhelmed by the three of you in terms of just how talented you are. Really, no joke. Feeling like I don't know what I've done to get here, honestly. And I thought.
- [14:30]
B
And that's exactly how I felt.
- [14:33]
A
And I remember, like, we're in Joey's suburban house in his playroom and watched what you guys made from. That is insane. I remember thinking, this is crazy. It looks like a kids show with a great budget. It's.
- [14:50]
B
Did you watch it in a while?
- [14:51]
A
I haven't watched it in a little while.
- [14:52]
B
I found it. I don't know if it's still. I hope it's public, but I found it in my own stuff the other day and it rules. It's so freaking fun. It's so. And it's so Joey. It's like so supremely.
- [15:03]
A
He's so funny and you're so Talented. And Luke is so prolific. And I was just like. And hilarious. Like, all funny. You're all funny. And I was just like, man, this is amazing.
- [15:17]
But I brought it up because knowing you for 10 years, watching only that journey, and I know there's a bunch before that in terms of this journey to make a movie, I wanted to see if I've. I've completed some dreams that aren't quite on that level, but I know having completed some things I really wanted to do. Of course the reality is not everything you wanted it to be. There's all kinds of ways you're aware of that or could complain about that or, you know, whatever. I get that. But I wondered if you could speak to what it feels like to have done a movie in theaters. Critics raved about it. Like, you have to be very proud of it. How does that feel in terms of your creative journey? Like.
- [16:11]
How does it feel to be on this side of that?
- [16:13]
B
I think you could probably answer the question because.
- [16:18]
A
Would you, though?
- [16:20]
B
Yeah, I guess you brought me on this podcast. I should say something in response to your questions. First off, a little just a funny aside. I always will remember about Leaky Timbers, about you. And you know this. I was a fan of the podcast already. Like had been for a while.
- [16:35]
A
While.
- [16:35]
B
Right.
- [16:35]
A
Yeah.
- [16:37]
B
You were the kind of the biggest celebrity there for me. No offense to Julia.
- [16:42]
A
Yeah.
- [16:45]
B
I was there at the, Like, I was there serving it. Serving at the pleasure of Joey Ellis and. And his genius. And then I. Luke was Luke. I was not as aware of his work and have been ever since blown away by literally everything I've ever seen from definitely.
- [17:04]
You. I. What's so funny is how quickly, how wonderfully it lined up with what I thought you would be like, that you got so hung up. Like, you had the hardest time with the fact that your character was angry and mean spirited. You could not wrap your brain around it.
- [17:24]
A
It's true. Yeah. I kept thinking, like, why did Joey ask me to do this? Like, this is like not me.
- [17:30]
B
When you. When you got there, it was obvious why he had you, because it was hilarious. But it took. It was so endearing that it took so much extra, so much work and like getting your mind there. It was such a long journey for you from Andy to Mean Puppet.
- [17:49]
A
So true. It's just one of those things where I'd never envisioned. I'd never envisioned playing any character that was angry and mean.
- [17:57]
B
Yeah. You just looked so unhappy having to be mean. It was so funny and sweet.
- [18:01]
A
It was just the sweetest Thing that's so funny.
- [18:04]
B
So to answer your question, it feels, maybe I can tie it in with that. It feels a little like.
- [18:11]
What it would be like to watch you play somebody mean. It's a lot of emotions, a lot of true real emotions that are all very real and based on real things. It feels incredibly rewarding and satisfying to. I mean I had just gotten the idea for this movie when we filmed Leaky Timbers. Like I think I remember telling you guys about it. Yeah, the idea was a week old at that point.
- [18:38]
A
That's correct.
- [18:38]
B
And it changed a lot since then. But yeah, it was a lot of. It was a lot of work. A lot of life happened in 10 years. Of course like I, my kids were all the ages of. And younger of the kids in the movie.
- [18:54]
A
Yeah.
- [18:55]
B
When I came up with the one I was writing it. It's very satisfying as a, as personally to have like.
- [19:04]
One to be done. Like to be done and have it out there.
- [19:08]
And to be really personally proud of it. And not just proud of the movie, but proud of the process of making the movie and proud of the relationships that were formed in making the movie. Proud of. From everything I can tell, the quality of life for people, most people who work on the movie, I know I can't guarantee it was the wonderful, delightful roller coaster ride for every single person but like I know key individuals who say it was like, you know, referred to as one of the most special projects they've worked on and the experience of making it, that's a huge point of pride. It's also really rewarding as a dad to like be like, okay, this is a project that to my kids, this is this thing dad has been working on for most of their lives. And for a long time I was like, I'm my. Something is going to be communicated to my kids through this process. At the end of this, it's either in, it's going to either be work hard, like not follow your dreams but like, you know, like pursue what makes you happy and pursue your passions and, and, and self express and if you feel called to self expression on a grand scale and are willing to put in the work like there are, there is meaning in that journey and that was going to be communicated by me no matter what whether the movie came out or not. But it feels really nice when it is able to come to completion, you know, and, but I mean, but then to have it premiere at Toronto Film Festival, not this past year, but the year before.
- [20:44]
Last year is fall 2024.
- [20:46]
A
Yeah.
- [20:47]
B
And.
- [20:49]
The response to the movie was like to have the reviews be so positive. And not just positive, but like, people just genuinely, like, moved by the movie and like, emotionally connecting with it. And like, the things that people appreciated about the movie were all the things that we struggled to get people to grasp when we were trying to get it made, when we were pitching it, and when we were trying to sell the movie in script form. It was like, it's a very. It's a tricky movie. It's like, it's very tonally complex. It's complex from a genre standpoint too. It, like, it has kids in it, but it's. We never wanted it to be a dismissible kids movie that's like, meant for, you know, kids and stupid adults. We wanted it to be something that ideally would be this like, cool indie movie that would find you as an adult first and then you would immediately get to share it with your kids. That was like. What we wanted was something that had value for everybody, but it was totally complex. And like, people would read it expecting the babadook and be like, why or why are there so many laughs in this?
- [21:55]
A
Yeah.
- [21:56]
B
Or they read expecting goosebumps and be like, why are you trying so hard to make me cry? Like, why are you trying to be really good? And all of that stuff people said back to us when they saw the movie, it was like, it was amazing. Like, literally everything we were trying to say to people, it's Inside out meets Jurassic Park. It's like, it's for literally everybody. It's a big four quadrant movie and everybody just saying that stuff back to us after seeing it. And all these like, gatekeepers and critics who I love and people who I love, their opinions on movies, like, it was, it was that all of that felt incredible. But then of course, no matter what, there is a like, no matter how successful it is and financially, it wasn't really that. I mean.
- [22:37]
We made more than our budget, so that's great. But you know, it wasn't financial. It wasn't like a. It wasn't a financial, like a rewarding experience for me in that regard, but I didn't need it to be. Yeah.
- [22:50]
I think I lost my train of thought, but I feel right, somewhere.
- [22:53]
A
Good, I've got you. You know, just interrupt me when it comes back to you. Just interrupt me and I'll. I'll keep rolling.
- [23:00]
B
Shut up. No, I don't remember.
- [23:01]
A
Go ahead, please do. Sometimes that's how it works for me. I mean, on the financial side, one thing that I was going to jokingly Ask you about was if MCU has called you yet, because I feel like this is the new pipeline of kind of indie director guy scores with the critics. Maybe it doesn't. People don't know. Not everyone knows about it. And it opens up all these different opportunities. That's kind of a great scenario, right?
- [23:26]
B
There haven't been opportunities, not specifically like Marvel or anything. Nothing necessarily that big.
- [23:31]
A
Right.
- [23:32]
B
There have been a couple of things and I've gotten to pitch on a lot of things, what it's done for me. And this is, I think, you know, the, the answer I would want 10 years ago is like, is it giving me opportunities that I wasn't getting before? And is it. Are they substantially like as it has it leveled me up? Yeah, in a, in a, you know, measurable way and Absolutely, yes. Like empirically, yes.
- [23:56]
A
Yeah, I believe it.
- [23:58]
B
I'm getting to be taken seriously and pitch on real stuff. Like I'm getting like there's all that, like I have tons of opportunities that I didn't have before. Of course now I'm panicked I'm going to lose them, you know, so I'm.
- [24:10]
A
Like freaking out, trying to balance that tension. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:15]
B
But, you know, there's also.
- [24:19]
It'S interesting. I. My therapist, I just started seeing a new therapist and on our. In our first session I was telling him, you know, I. This movie I made just came out. It's been a. Almost 10 years to make and I think it was seven, eight years actually is what it was. So it's like, like, you know, eight years to get to. To get made and make. And then my son is a senior in high school and he's going to be graduating this year and I'm dealing with all the. That's emotionally hitting me harder than I ever thought it would, but not necessarily harder than thought it would, but in ways I didn't expect it to.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah.
- [24:59]
B
And he was like, so it sounds to me like you just released an eight year project into the world and you're about to release an 18 year one. And I was like, okay, you got the job. You're my therapist.
- [25:11]
A
That's like, put that in the next movie. Got it. Yeah. That's great.
- [25:16]
B
And so like, it, it is giving me. How do I feel right now? Day to day. It's like a. It. It is. Well, sorry, I'm all over the place.
- [25:25]
A
I want to tell you that my whole goal with that first question, it was barely a question because I didn't really. What I wanted to do was, you.
- [25:32]
B
Know, it was A loaded question.
- [25:33]
A
I wanted to give you space.
- [25:35]
Yeah. I want to give you space to. Because I know to some degree what this journey's been like, just how, you know, how much persistence you have to have to get to this moment. And then I just thought, man, I wonder if you've had that space to just kind of unpack it a bit.
- [25:53]
B
To just like cry at the Valvoline oil change. Yes, 100%.
- [25:57]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [26:01]
B
Literally did happen. I'm like, yeah, I'm like opening my door to get the VIN number to the guy and I'm like, all of a sudden just hit with this wave of like, of grief. And. And like, try not to make eye contact. And like. Yeah, no, I'm gonna go with the regular synthetic.
- [26:19]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [26:21]
B
The. The other thing is, like, it's not. So there's. There's the benefits of this journey, like the rewards of like, having leveled up and having opportunities, but also having leveled up.
- [26:32]
A
Yeah.
- [26:34]
B
Skill wise, like, that's been a huge one for me is like confidence in.
- [26:41]
So like, you know, writing a movie, just writing a movie alone. Like a feature length film. I had written. I had written a couple before, but I. They weren't like big passion projects for me. This is the first like feature length movie. Feature length movie I'd written that was like my baby, like a thing I really cared about.
- [26:57]
A
Yep.
- [26:57]
B
And it took me forever. And I had written tons of like, short films before then. I had written tons of like, like, you know, commercials and all kinds of short form stuff and those stuff you can sit down and knock out in a day. But like a feature is a marathon and 90% of the time you're doing bad work and it's. That's hard. It just, it just is the case. It's the truth in the case. And the, the hardest part about it is convincing yourself that that's. That that's true. That that is how it's supposed to be.
- [27:29]
A
Very true. I mean, I've never written a movie, but every project I've done is like, yeah.
- [27:34]
B
I mean, it's like you just spend the whole time thinking, oh, I shouldn't be doing this. I'm not cut out for this. This is not fun. This is bad. I'm bad. This is going to be terrible. And you get to the other side of it and you're like, oh, I know better now. And then it's still hard. And then you get the other side of it and you're like, oh, I know a little better now. And you truthfully, are getting better because just like these things we're making where all. I love this. I heard Adam Savage say it, and I don't know where he heard it, but all creation is iteration. That, like, you are just iterating until something matches what you expected and what you wanted it to be. And that it's that way with the work you're doing, but it's also that way with yourself and as an artist. And then, like, each time you get a little better and you get a little more confident at it. And like this, like these past 10 years, it's, you know, not just this movie I've been working on, but, like, having achieved this, it's. It's done a lot for my ability to churn out the next thing and the thing after, etc.
- [28:35]
A
And so many. I mean, 90 of the episodes of this show are saying, if it feels bad, it's. That's actually how it feels like, you know, that's. That's normal. That's. That it doesn't mean you're going the wrong way. Like, it's part of the process. You're doing bad stuff, feels like you're making bad stuff. You probably are. That's also part of it. I feel like that's a big. A big thing for me. And then I like this iterative thing of. I don't really think it's true that, like, Wes Anderson's made the same movie every time, but in a way, In.
- [29:06]
B
A way untrue, right?
- [29:08]
A
It's not true. But there, in a way, there are these things. You can see these things where he's like, oh, maybe he nailed that bit better. He like, oh, he's working on the dad thing. They saw a new angle on the dad thing. Like, okay, oh, he captured that a little bit better. Or something like that. Obviously, there's all these different things going on, but that one thing I wanted to ask you about that you kind of touched on was so you're in this moment where honestly, there's nothing more satisfying than making a project, having things. You're like, this is what I love about this. This is what I fought for with all the people that worked on it. And then having. I don't care. I genuinely. If I get a bad review on a book and I don't like their taste or it's a Amazon thing or a. I don't care. It doesn't bother me at all.
- [29:57]
B
Me either.
- [29:57]
A
None. It's funny most of the time, honestly. Now, if someone that I respect gives me a better view it will hurt. I will. You know, I'll consider it. You know, it's a bummer. But there's something socially and I think artistically positive about these people that I share taste with. If they jam with this thing and they repeat back to me what I was trying to do, what I fought for, there's. It's like, this is why I'm doing this. This is a huge part of it.
- [30:25]
B
It's more. This is why I'm addicted to this. It's like, this is.
- [30:29]
A
It's communicating. It's like, oh, boom. I feel known in a way I've never felt before.
- [30:35]
B
It's. It's clicking a button and having it click back. It's like pushing a button and having a click. It is like that on a grand scale of like, oh, like, if I do this, this will happen. I have effect on the world. I have effect on the world around me. I have. I connect to something. And, dude, like, yeah. I was talking to some friends of mine who are also filmmakers, and like.
- [30:58]
Before. Before the move, before sketch had come out, it was, like, done, but we was in limbo for a while.
- [31:04]
A
Yeah.
- [31:05]
B
And they were like. It was before it came out at tiff, and they were like, how are you dreading, like, reviews? You worried about those? And I said, no. I. This is so weird. I am begging, dying to be judged. I have been working on this for.
- [31:19]
A
So I get it. I get that. Yeah.
- [31:21]
B
I need the world to judge the shit out of me right now. I am. I am ready. I need it. I need to know, like, is this working, what I'm trying to do with my life? Like, tell me, like, you evaluate me objectively. And it's almost. I. I had a short film I made years ago called Real Gone that was. I had made all this, like, popcorny, fun, like, comedy driven, like, stuff. And this was comedy, but it was a dark comedy. And it was different than the stuff I'd made before. And it was trigger warning for anybody out there. It was about a guy.
- [31:58]
Who, at the beginning of the film, has died. We don't know this. He's, like, on the beach somewhere, and then suddenly he's revived, and we realized he was dead and in the afterlife and then has now been revived in his shitty life. And Jess wants to return, and the prem is essentially, like, what if Wile E. Coyote tried to kill himself? And, like, so it's him trying to kill himself and consist, like, freak, like, just consistently being averted and forwarded in his, like, in his attempts, like, comic Increasingly, like on a like stupider scale every time. And I remember multiple people. It was the first thing I ever made were close friends and family. Not even close, like friends of like family friends were like, yeah, we watched your short, didn't like this one. And it was, it was 8,000 times, I don't know why, 8,000 times more gratifying than all the love that I'd gotten on previous shorts. And I still don't fully understand it to this day.
- [33:03]
A
I think I get it in that there are certain things, not in a big way, but there are certain things that I've done where I felt like this was really honest and I, and I want to say it and I know some people aren't going to like it and there's, it's almost like I feel good that I was able to say it. I feel good that I, like, I don't know if it's that, but it's.
- [33:24]
B
Not, it's not, it's not a wonderful thing. I don't want everybody to do it all the time.
- [33:27]
A
Right.
- [33:27]
B
But when you do it a few times, yeah, maybe that's what it is. I'm just a huge jerk.
- [33:34]
A
But you know, when it comes to being able to communicate, like, you wanted to do this, people got it. In that 10 year stretch of inception to making this thing, were there things that you learned that made it so that you could pull that off? Maybe in this 10 year time, but maybe even if you go back further to when you first really were like, putting all your chips on. I want to make big movie in the theaters.
- [34:07]
I'm sure. Yeah. Like, I'm wondering if there are just things where you're like, I learned that thing and I wouldn't have been able to pull it off if I hadn't.
- [34:15]
B
Yes, for sure. So, like, everything from I actually, the big, I think the biggest one was I. The movie had been written, we had taken it out.
- [34:28]
Tony was attached early on as a producer and as a star.
- [34:32]
A
Yep.
- [34:33]
B
And I had known Tony already from a. I'd written a spec script years, years before after a short film of mine had gone viral and we had been able to attach actors and Tony was one of those actors. The movie never got made, but he was very sweet and we remained friends since then. And after I moved to la, we reconnected and, and that was around the time I thought of this movie and, you know, thought of him immediately for it and he had come on board, he had gotten his agents. I didn't, I didn't really have Any representation by that point. So I was very much just like living off of Tony's.
- [35:07]
Street cred and connections and everything Glow. He was so. He was like, so passionate about the movie.
- [35:14]
A
Yeah.
- [35:14]
B
And stayed with it all this time and fought for it even when I had kind of given up on it. And so we'd taken it out a couple. We took it out once in 2019. We took it out once again, like mid pandemic, weirdly, like over zoom. And then we did one more 20, 21. So that's three times. We took it out to, like, studios and streamers and with, like, different things changed about it. Different, like the tone shifted drastically. Well, I'll talk about that. So, yeah, I was going somewhere. But actually something before that that was really important was that I had made a short film that was as a. That was a proof of. Commence to be a proof of concept for the movie. It was called Darker Colors. That was the name of the movie originally. And my boss at Red Giant, Maxon, was he. Where I make a. I've made most of my short films offered. Asked me if I wanted to make a short film for the movie that would serve as like, a pitch piece for it, but would live on their YouTube channel and stuff. And so that's what Darker Colors is. And it's out there. You can watch it. But it represents an earlier tone of the movie, which was visually darker, not, like, tonally dark, but, like, visually darker. Had a lot more. More of a, like, John Carpenter vibe to it and had, like, it follows music was like all the temp music throughout it. And it was like the synth score and was like, really moody. And I mean, that short has really cool, like, atmosphere and tone. I really love that short. But I. I learned all the things that I needed to change about not. Not even the script, but just my approach as a director. And like, visually, it was like, this movie needs to be lighter on its feet. It needs to have more energy. It needs to move more. Like my other movies tend to. I got that John Carpenter out of my system. I'll put that in another project later. But for this one, it needs to be.
- [37:06]
More alive and vibrant and more summery.
- [37:08]
A
And it's a great example.
- [37:10]
B
And so that was like a. That was a big. You know. And I learned I need to age the kids up. I learned we need to learning lean into more orchestral scores. I'm so proud of the work on the short, but it was very beneficial to help me learn. Oh, here's what I'm not going to do on the feature. Then the other big thing was, like, after I pitched it in 2021, I. And everybody passed again. I put it in a drawer and kind of gave up on it. And by that point, I was back in Nashville. An agency, Sandwich Video that I had done a lot of commercials for while I was out in la started hiring me to do. To do work for them, like, direct commercials for them. But, like, out here in Nashville with my Nashville, like, crew and commercials were a thing that I have. I only just started feeling good at it, and they were just a very weird thing that I couldn't wrap my brain around. It was like, as a director, where you just, like. I didn't feel like I knew how to put my, like, yeah, my stamp on it. Every time I did it, like, it got rubbed off immediately by the agency, and it seemed to just inconvenience everybody. And so I just always felt like an idiot showing up and being like, cut. Do you guys like that? Or. We, like.
- [38:28]
I don't know why I'm here.
- [38:29]
A
I love the idea of just. That's your directing style. Cut. Did you guys like any of that?
- [38:35]
B
Everybody on set every time.
- [38:39]
A
Anyone, like, anyone enjoying this? What?
- [38:42]
B
Oh, my God, I love it so much. The completely insecure director, but, like, sincerely, he's not taking out his insecurity through, like, yelling or violence. He's literally, like, just sincere, earnest. You guys, like, this. Is this working?
- [38:57]
That? It really. It kind of is me, actually. But the, like, once I started doing these, like, commercials out here in Nashville with, like, for Sandwich, the quality of those commercials were great because Sandwich is incredible and the work they do is incredible, and they're huge. Before I worked with them, they were a huge influence on me.
- [39:17]
But they gave me a lot of creative. Not control, but a lot of creative input, like, and freedom. And.
- [39:28]
I finally started feeling, like, good at this and, like, feeling what came from that also was, like, feeling good at running a set. Like, a set the way the set is supposed to be run. Like, like, all of my short films, like, they got increasing. The sets got increasingly. And crews got increasingly bigger, but the budgets were always, like, very small. And it always still felt like a DIY operation. And by the time, like, you know, by the time 2022, in the spring of 2022, which is when a friend of mine offered to find more money for it and then did immediately to make sketch. By that point, I felt good at my job in a way that I had never felt before in my entire life and absolutely enabled me to show up on set of sketch without any hesitation or like. Or anxiety or fear. It was just. It's just locked in, like, yeah, this is what I'm here to do. This is what I'm good at. And it was such an incredible feeling that I don't know if I would have felt if I hadn't, you know, had the 10 years leading up to it.
- [40:29]
A
Yeah, there's so much good stuff in that. One of the things that I think of is I pull this example a lot, but I love this notion that some of my favorite bits on you. I think you. I think you should leave is.
- [40:46]
Stuff that they did on Saturday Night Live. Like, it made it on Saturday Night Live. It was a skit on there. And then they just redid it a different way, the way that they wanted to do it. The thing is, no one knows that unless you're obsessed with it.
- [40:59]
B
Yeah.
- [40:59]
A
And I love this thing of.
- [41:01]
B
It's their second chance theater.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah, it's. And I love this thing for. For an artist, it's so hard not to sit on the ball and wait with your great ideas and be like, okay, I can't let this thing out of the bag. And it's just the worst impulse. And I always just tell people, like. And literally, unless your Beyonce, there's no mystery to it. Put. Try stuff. Put it out. Like, try to do it. And. And then if it works, kind of do it again. And like, that. I. I don't. For a lot of. I can imagine a lot of filmmakers and musicians and everyone having a really hard time putting out a short film version of the movie they want to make because they're afraid, like, well, then everyone will think that's it.
- [41:48]
B
Well, okay. So my advice, though, on that would be one, if you have an idea that you're passionate about and you feel like it only works as a feature and not as a short, like, first off, I do think there is a mass. There's a big difference between a short film. I know short film and a feature film.
- [42:02]
A
Yeah.
- [42:03]
B
Sketch made a really great feature and a really bad short. And.
- [42:07]
A
But I love the short, too, and I maybe. Sorry, but exist in. In the way that a short needs to. To succeed or whatever, you know? But let me rephrase.
- [42:17]
B
It's not my best short. Right. My best shorts would not make good features.
- [42:21]
A
Totally makes sense.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah, but what you're talking about, though, is so true in that, like, when you have an idea in here, like, what it is, it's potential and, like. And the problem is, like, you're never. There's all your brain is filling in all of these missing gaps that make it a whole idea, but they're in a way that makes it feel like a whole idea in your head. And until you put it on paper or put it somewhere, you're never going to realize how much work is left to do on it before it's going to be good. So the quickest you can get the work in some way on it. I totally agree with you. And that's why, you know, I had this in the product that we made called the Story Clock Notebook. And, like, based on my process of story development, which is like, the second you get a bunch of ideas, write them all in a big, giant pile and write every detail you can, no matter how disjointed it is. And then it's all there and you can start to make sense of it using different, like, workflows and, like, tricks. Whatever helps trick your brain into thinking that it's, you know, working once those ideas stop, stop coming. The thing about, like, you know, I found for me, another big way lately to, like, audition an idea or get it out of my brain and test it is just to start making a pitch deck for it.
- [43:42]
A
Yeah.
- [43:42]
B
And. And it's a pitch deck. It's literally just to communicate story. It's not like asking for money. It's not. Whatever. It's literally just like trying to create a cool, moody visual presentation using a bunch of reference imagery. And I'm trying to, like, see if I can tell the gist of the story in this deck. And it's therapeutic because I'm getting to. I'm. I was so jealous of all. I grew up in Nashville. I have all of these musician friends, and I'm. I used to be jealous of them because I felt like they were. Had the ability to translate an idea into something much easier than me.
- [44:16]
A
Much different way about needing less people, you know, all that kind of thing.
- [44:20]
B
Yeah, I felt that way about artists and illustrators, too. I'm just like, yeah, you guys can. I'm so jealous of people who can draw. You have no idea.
- [44:28]
A
Right?
- [44:28]
B
Like, I. And I know I should just accept that I can draw and have my own style, or if I want to learn to draw better, I can do that. But right now it's just circles and lines. That's basically what I can do. And that's what my storyboards look like and whatever. But, like, I've learned. I found for me that way of getting that feeling of turning an idea into a thing. Without hap. Without needing millions of dollars and crews full of people and. And other Paying other collaborators. And everything is just to start. Find any way to visually present the idea in its crudest form. And not only are you, like, getting it out of here so it doesn't fester, because there is a shelf life in your brain, I think, for ideas before they start to fester and become something. Yeah. And also a bird, like a burden. Like, if this isn't good. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it has to be good. I've had it for so long.
- [45:25]
A
I love that. I've had that same experience with, like, picture books and different projects we've done where if I can do, like, a comic version of it, the whole plan is, can I give you what I think is great about this? Can you get it in this, the most basic way possible? And then if I can't get you to do that, it's not ready to really even do anything with. Really, Like, I need to. I need to nail that. But it feels really encouraging too. If I can give you the comic version and you're like, that's. Let's do that. Then I'm feeling like, okay, yeah, let's go. I'll do the next thing.
- [45:58]
B
I can put more work in there.
- [45:59]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [46:01]
B
And it's amazing how quickly I will pivot from. This sucks. This is nothing to. Oh, yeah, it's a masterpiece. The second someone tells me it's good, it's good.
- [46:13]
A
And so, like, yeah, that's. There's so many ways where that practice has worked for me to get me to do the bigger chunks of the marathon. That is a project. Right.
- [46:40]
You probably know running is a big part of how I try to keep my brain sharp and creative. So I'm in that creative runner Venn diagram, and so is Vander Jacket. Why? Because it's the only running apparel company that I've ever known of that was founded by an artist. And the unique styles and creations that they make make that pretty obvious. Their unique looks are a product of their admirable and innovative approach to making each piece from dead stock, leftover fabrics from larger companies. And it just makes their stuff look really unique and cool. Each piece is made in Denver by the founder and a small team of brilliant clothing construction workers. It's very cool. And I don't know any other company that makes the one of a kind garments like they do in these small batches. When I go for a run, I'm hoping my Vander Jacket is out of the wash and ready with its deep pockets for my AirPods and the thumb holes for cozy hands, I am a big fan. So if you are looking for something special this holiday season, whether your family's gifts need to be local or handmade or one of a kind or repurposed, Vanderjacket checks every box. Head to vanderjacket.com and use code creative all caps creative for 20% off your first order. That's V A N D E R jacket.com, promo code creative for 20% off your first Order.
- [48:09]
My name is Percy Jackson. Getting in trouble is like breathing for me. The hit series returns to Disney plus and Hulu.
- [48:16]
B
The danger the camp is under is greater than you can possibly imagine.
- [48:20]
A
For the key to our survival, three.
- [48:23]
B
Of you must quest to the Sea of Monsters.
- [48:26]
A
Let's go do the impossible.
- [48:30]
Percy. Percy Jackson and the Olympians new Season 2 episode premiere December 10th on Disney and Hulu. Learn more at disneyplus.com whatson.
- [48:42]
One thing that you said that I want to circle back to that I think is really powerful. I wish I would have known it when I was younger. Sometimes, man, I actually don't remember what you said that made me think of this. But it was something about when you're talking about after you've put this movie out, which is this huge goal and dream that you wanted to do. And then it made me realize, like, oh, when I was younger and I would hear someone in your shoes talk about the problems that they faced after that, or the things like, okay, I did that. Now I have all these other things that I want to do. Or now it's, there's these new challenges or whatever it is. I used to hear that as.
- [49:28]
You never arrive in a bad way, like you. It's always a grind, it's always a journey. You never get to the destination. Da, da da da. As I'm older and I realized, like, the dopamine is the chase, it's like the best news in the world to be like, yeah, after you get done with this big thing or this first.
- [49:46]
B
Thing, you can sit.
- [49:47]
A
There's another thing. Yeah.
- [49:49]
B
Yes.
- [49:50]
A
Right.
- [49:50]
B
You can sit and wallow. And then there is a new challenge. Oh, my God. That's such a good way to put it. Like, once you scale this mountain, there is. There are more mountains and bigger and more challenging and more exciting. Like, this doesn't stop and get old if. Unless you decide to stop. Yeah.
- [50:07]
A
So. And some of the things you were saying, it just made me think of, like, oh, that you're at this Other place where, okay, you've been reviewed, you've put your thing out, You've. You've made that happen with help from these people around you. But it's really this dream, this thing that you've, like, pushed for a long time now. There's all these other new challenges that you're going to have now. You got to keep those critics out of your head now. You got to. You got to, you know, figure out what choices now. You have to make choices instead of just, like, pushing. There's so much, so many even still.
- [50:40]
B
There'S pushing, and it's like, oh, there's.
- [50:41]
A
Going to be pushing.
- [50:42]
B
Yeah. Because it's like, I still like my. The movie that I've written now that I'm. That I'm working on is, like, I say working on, like, because I am still trying to get it made, but I'm finally. There is a. There's a little traction, and it came a little quicker than it did with Sketch, of course. But, like, a lot of the same issues where we sent it around, and a lot of people were like, just, like, for legitimate reasons, like, not for us. Love it, though. Like, and. And it's like, really, like, at what point are people gonna start, like, same.
- [51:16]
A
Yes.
- [51:17]
B
Yes. At what point will this be something. Yeah, yeah. And I have to remind myself that a lot of it is like. Like, yeah. There's the obvious, you know, chances that, like, what I'm making isn't as good as what I think it is, but also the fact that, like, on Sketch, I was trying to make something. We were trying to make something. I don't want to say I. We. It was a very big team. We were trying to make something unique and special, and that was really. And because of that, it was hard for people. It didn't. There was no box for, like, people to put it in. People for buyers to put it in. And what made it not fit into boxes is also. Are all the things that made it great and made it special. And I drama myself that, like, that might be the case with this. And this is what happens when you don't want to write garbage. Like, this is what happens when you don't want to write.
- [52:02]
A
You don't want to repeat the thing that just succeeded. Yeah.
- [52:05]
B
Yeah.
- [52:06]
A
I love that. It's actually very encouraging to. To me, I'm thinking, like.
- [52:11]
Just to put a little bit more clarity on it, you don't want to get to a place where you're not pushing because you have that. The chase is so much of the Joy. The leveling up is so much of the joy. And I, I thought, you know, for so long I was like, okay, I just need to get published. And then once I got published, I was like, oh, no, I need to get on like a list or we need to have a hit or something like that. And then once you have something like that, then you. It just. At some point I realized like, the best thing that could happen to me as I'm living my life is that I have something to do. I have something to like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to be in a place where I don't have that fire to do something.
- [52:51]
B
No, you're absolutely right. In fact, it happened a couple weeks ago where it was just a, it was just a two week stretch where suddenly I had nothing. I was waiting and stuff. Yes. And I freaked out. Like, it's. Why, like, you can't. I don't know if you can see the way that the. Our conversation is cropping my camera view, but I have tons of Lego sets back here and they are all evidence of. I learned, I think this is an ADHD thing that you of all people can tell me that I. I learned several years ago that one of the reasons I was having trouble relaxing on vacations was because of what we're talking about.
- [53:29]
A
Is that like, same.
- [53:30]
B
My brain wanted problems to solve and wanted something to be working on. Like, and I suddenly found out one day on one trip. Oh, a LEGO set tricks my brain into thinking I'm working and yet I am relaxing. And so now I just stock the hell up on Legos when we go on vacation. And like, I spend so much of the time, like in the common space where everybody is work, you know, turning out these Lego sets. And like, I got a lot of work.
- [53:56]
A
Okay, I'm sorry.
- [53:58]
B
Yeah, yeah. Dad's working on this gizmo from Gremlin set. It's very important.
- [54:04]
A
Well, that's one of, one of the big shifts for me around, like managing my mental health was realized when I found out that dopamine is a chase. It's not the, it's not the reward, it's not the pleasure. It's literally you have something you're fighting for. So if you're deaf, if you have a deficit in dopamine and then you go on vacation, you're doing nothing. No chasing whatsoever, no building, no moving towards. It actually just hurts. It doesn't feel good. Now, I do recommend taking a break from the stress of building something that your life depends On.
- [54:37]
B
Yeah, well, that was. I was going to ask you about, and not just because I'm the writer director of the feature film sketch, but grief. Do you experience grief at the end of projects?
- [54:47]
A
Oh, yeah, definitely. I definitely do. Have you dealt with that? I mean, you've been living with this one for quite some time, so.
- [54:54]
B
Monumentally, yes. And the bigger the project, the bigger it can be. And my life was. Thankfully, I learned early on that this was a thing. And so I've never. It's never been a thing that I've had to be scared of or surprised by.
- [55:08]
A
How did you learn it?
- [55:11]
B
The why where everyone else learns it. The director's commentary from Forrest Gump. Yeah.
- [55:19]
I don't. I don't remember anything.
- [55:20]
A
All life lessons come from that.
- [55:22]
B
All of that. I don't remember anything else from that commentary except that at the end of the movie, the credits start rolling and then Bob Zemeckis just starts talking about. Apropos of Nothing is like. So, yeah, if you know me, if you're, you know, if you're a friend of mine or know me really well, you know that right after this movie came out, I experienced. I went at a deep depression that lasted for several years. And I'm like, whoa, boy, this commentary is just getting started. Right? Right as the movie is in. And he goes on to talk about. It's the first time I'd ever heard anything like this. He was talking about. And this is like, you know, I think I was barely out of high school when I heard. When I was listening to this, so it was like, before any actual career, you know, he starts talking about how, like, at the end of, like, a movie is like, years of your life. You build up this family in this team, and you're all working toward this one goal together. And then the day it comes out, it's all over. It's done. The saddest, the worst part about making movies is that they end. And, like, you get two phone calls on the opening weekend. You get a call from your agent saying, hey, did you see the grosses? And then you get a call from your. The head of the studio saying, congratulations. And then nobody else calls you anymore and you're by yourself. And he was like, for the longest time, I ran away from that by making sure that I was jumping into whatever the next project was as fast as possible. And he said, but I've now at a point in my life where I've learned not to do that.
- [56:48]
That I run the risk of jumping into a project I shouldn't jump into or not being available for the project I should be jumping into. And I've learned to just sit in that grief and just let it pass. And like, I'm telling you, I could not be more thankful who have heard that at the age that I was, because ever since then, it's like anytime we made a short film, we put it out there. I. I knew I was ready. Like, I'm going to feel sad, like, like varying stages of it, but it's going to feel like grief, like something has died, like, I've made something and it's not mine anymore. I'm letting go of it. It's. And. And I'm not. Don't get to work on it anymore. And like, my, like, group of collaborators, like, we started calling it, like, you're laying Runway so the plane doesn't crash. Like, you have to be prepared, you know, for that to happen. And thankfully, it's like, there's so much more. I mean, it's the podcast I'm on. There's so much more emotional health and wisdom out there now when it comes to working in creative careers. But I think it's. I can't imagine going to this career and not having. Not knowing about that and having to discover that on my own and, like, be surprised by that, like, terrible feeling of, like, I just accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish. Why am I unhappy? And it's not that you're unhappy, you're just grieving that the process of making that is over and you need the next thing.
- [58:19]
A
That, right there is such a clear thought around this, because I feel like there has been a perpetuated idea that maybe does a little bit of harm. You hear those people that reach these mountaintop experiences and quickly equate the disappearance of the dopamine, the disappearance of the journey, or whatever it is as, oh, it didn't fulfill me in the way that I thought it was going to fulfill me. Therefore, it was a waste of time rather than. And every time I hear that, I think that's like saying, I'm not going to ever eat again because I got hungry like that. You know what I mean? Like, it's like it was a waste of time. It promised me I'd be full. And look at me now. Like, I think about that all the time. Think, yes, okay, maybe there are ways in which you thought it would fix you or whatever, put you in a. In a bliss forever that it didn't. Yeah, those are valid feelings, but also reminds me of your movie. Like, it's A place for grief. It's like. And when you said, oh, he would jump into the next movie as quickly as possible and that he would miss maybe a key part of the creative journey where you're like, okay, there's a point where I actually need to experience what it feels like. For me, it's like, part of the reason I need to experience a little bit of grief after being done is because there's so much of the process that I complain about while I'm doing it. There's so much on my. Oh, my gosh, I'm. Dude, I'm so stacked. I'm working these long days. So many days, whatever. And then when I have this moment where I have nothing, I'm like, oh, I like that, actually.
- [59:57]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [59:58]
A
I like having.
- [59:59]
B
It doesn't stop.
- [60:00]
A
Good balance.
- [60:03]
B
But it helped. But absolutely is necessary to help us, like. Yeah. Make that connection. Otherwise, it's just. It's. Yeah. Yeah.
- [60:10]
A
Let me ask you this question I wanted to. You were talking about earlier having these moments where people that watch the movie. Got it. I. One question I always wish people would ask about projects is, what are the nerdy things?
- [60:27]
B
How many would you make?
- [60:29]
A
How many subscribers do you have that.
- [60:34]
The kids ask me that, too. How much you make on that Xbox project?
- [60:37]
B
Dude, I had a high school kid asked me that, like, a couple of weeks ago when I did the same. The same thing. And I just. I told him. I was like.
- [60:45]
A
I told him depressing, but I told him, too.
- [60:47]
B
Yeah, I'm going to tell your podcast. But I told that kid, me too.
- [60:51]
A
I did, too, because I thought, well, whatever. I don't know. I don't know if this will. What this will do.
- [60:55]
B
But I didn't look at him when I answered because I didn't want to see his face. I didn't want to know how low or low a number it was.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah, that's funny. I mean, I'm guessing to kids it sounds big no matter what the number is.
- [61:07]
B
I don't know anymore. I feel like these kids are already richer than I am. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, sounds like buying stocks and stuff.
- [61:14]
A
Oh, really?
- [61:16]
B
Yeah.
- [61:17]
A
Like on apps. Yeah, that's.
- [61:19]
B
I should probably monitor clothes more closely. Like, he's probably, like, tanking the market and, like, GameStopping or whatever the words are. Yeah.
- [61:26]
A
Shorting it.
- [61:27]
B
Yeah.
- [61:28]
A
The.
- [61:30]
The.
- [61:33]
The question that I wanted to ask you was those nerdy things.
- [61:37]
B
Why? That broke me. I know what it is, but it's still funny. It doesn't sound like I know what it is.
- [61:47]
Sorry.
- [61:47]
A
Was it. What you called it game stopping.
- [61:50]
B
I did, but shorting it is the idea of just like. Oh, just short that. I just want me to ask him that from now on.
- [61:55]
A
Yeah, short it. The. I wanted to ask you about, like, those things that people got.
- [62:03]
What. What are the nerdy things in the movie that you nerd out about in terms of.
- [62:12]
Most people are maybe getting on an unconscious or subconscious level, but it's what they like about it. Those are my favorite things about a project. And I want. And I know they're present in a movie that has the depth that this movie has. What are those things for you? Or what are one that. What's one that you want to talk about?
- [62:32]
B
That's a really great question. I. This is not an answer to the question.
- [62:36]
A
Okay.
- [62:36]
B
But it's related. And, like, early on, there were a lot more in the script. There were a lot more Easter eggs. Like, in what characters were named. There were like, references to other things. Like, actually early on, Amber, her name was originally Amblin. Somebody talked me out of that. And they were like, is her last name Jurassic Park?
- [63:00]
And so I intentionally took out every reference, like, on purpose, except Amber. Amber is still. Amber is a Jurassic park reference because of the mosquitoes and Amber. But, like, that's not meant to be noticeable or anything. But everything else is just like a real. It's almost. I went out of my way to try and find, like, boring, real names for everybody else, and I just offended so many people in my. In my life with those names.
- [63:25]
A
Yeah.
- [63:27]
B
But then, like, in post, somebody was like, pointing out that Taylor, Tony's character, Taylor is the last name of the. Of the family in E.T.
- [63:40]
Jack is the name of the older brother, and Hook. And I could keep going. Literally every character is from a Spielberg movie. I was like, great.
- [63:48]
A
And how many people that reviewed it were like, Spielbergian this thing. Well, that's.
- [63:52]
B
That, See, that's inevitable no matter what. Like the movie. And that was another reason I told all the department heads, like, while we were making the movie, I was like, do not. Do not put a reference in on to anything on purpose. Like, we're not going to pick shots from movies based, like, specifically as I. I don't want to wink at the camera. I don't want to do anything because we're going to do it by accident, no matter what.
- [64:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [64:15]
B
And absolutely.
- [64:17]
A
There's no. There's. I mean, it was like.
- [64:20]
B
I just. I feel like you were. No matter what, I'm going to steal, like, outright steal from stuff that I love subconsciously.
- [64:26]
A
Yeah.
- [64:27]
B
And we're all gonna do it. And so like. And I'm glad I did it because the movie is filled with shots that are straight up. Like there's, you know, the, the shout, the baths up draining. Psycho is the big one everyone references. And I'm like, yeah, I forgot. I forgot that was in Psycho when we did it. Yeah, there's so many shots from Jurassic park that are like straight out of Jurassic park in the movie. But I think the stuff that I really like.
- [64:51]
That I love that's in the movie so much, it is like those actors performances, to be honest, is like decisions that they made and like little things that like, were added to the script or added to the, the scene or like. I'm always really proud of how we solved problems. And those problems were almost always, you know, we don't have enough time to get the thing that we planned to do things as we planned.
- [65:16]
A
And I've kind of heard this is the. The job of a director is just solving problems. That's what you do.
- [65:23]
B
Favorite part. Like, it's my, it's. It's. It's really hard at times, especially on a movie. Like we're like my, the. My favorite scene in the movie. It's the reason I stuck with the movie for 10 years. It is the thing that from day one I had in my head. Spoiler alerts. For anybody who hasn't seen the movie, you can skip ahead 30 seconds, but then I'm gonna take 30 seconds to remember what I was gonna say.
- [65:49]
Like this idea that we spend the whole movie, all the characters and every bit the whole movie thinking that this central character is broken and this little girl is broken and needs to be fixed and only to reveal that it's the exact opposite. She's the only one doing what you're supposed to be doing and grieving in a healthy way. Even if it's a non traditional way and everybody else is broken and needs to get out of her way. And this is the thing that I got so excited about. Get out of her way and let her be a freaking like freak of nature and save everybody by being her weird self and, and in a like as badass a way as we could find. And so that scene, if you just skipped ahead and you're trying to avoid spoilers, skip another 30 seconds. The scene where there's this stretch of the movie, this last scene, it's a showdown with the. With Amber and Jack against evil. Amber at the pond and Jack's trying to hold her off with the flamethrower. Yeah. She pins Amber down, Jack down. And that's the scariest part of the movie. If there's anything in the movie that's scary, it's really that moment, because he's got the flamethrower and it's. She's made a crayon, so it's melting her, and she's, like, dripping all over him. And Q, who played Q Lawrence, who played Jack, is giving this, like. He does this heartbreaking scream in that scene that is just like. You call cut. And you're like, are you okay?
- [67:13]
A
And that's great.
- [67:16]
B
And then she wraps her, like, tongue around his neck and is trying to choke him. And that's the part that, like, you know, our distributor begged me to cut and I wouldn't, because the point is, we wanted the movie to be the scariest. It gets right before. Right before Amber comes in and kicks the thing's ass. And the whole sequence from that point up all the way through, I won't give anything else away. But there's, like. There's, like, three main beats that proceed to happen, and those are, like, the things that made me want to make the movie.
- [67:48]
A
Yeah.
- [67:48]
B
And on the day of shooting that, we have to get that whole scene in one day, which is a lot, and we have to get the lead up of all of it in one day. And I mean, that's one of those days where you, like, go and sit in your car at lunch and you're just like.
- [68:06]
I don't know. I don't know how we're still going to have a movie. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how we're going to. And you just, like, eat your food. You suck it up, and you make a plan and you start cutting shots and you get the thing down to the simplest possible version it can be. And then you show back up, you grab your leads and you, like. And you're like your key department heads. And you walk through like, okay, this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to make it. I think this is going to work. Call out to me if you think this. If anybody thinks this won't work. You got questions. But we'll get this, we'll get this. We'll do this, this, then it'll be this. We're cutting this. That is the best feeling. That is like. Like, that's what I was put on earth to do, is to like, yeah, I can make the plans. I can cast the vision. But the real fun is in like, is in set finding the new vision when your plans completely fall apart. And I, I thrive at that at like fee. On vacations, like theme park vacations and stuff. Like, I, Me too.
- [69:06]
A
I, I never thought of it that way. Keep going. But something. No, I, I have the. I have this all the time. And I, it didn't occur to me until we had made. This is a really ridiculous version of this. But I'm glad you said that because I was thinking of this in all these creative ways and it's all. And it's really true and there's so much that great stuff to pull from that. But then I realized, like, I had a moment where I felt like this is my purpose in life. It's so dumb. But we had gone. We had planned. Me and my in laws and my, and my kids and my wife. A lot of these people really like a plan. They. They're the plan people.
- [69:48]
B
Yeah.
- [69:49]
A
And then we got there and we forgot that, oh the. There's this huge event in town and we're not going to get into the restaurant we plan to go to. And it's not a big deal. No one's having a really hard time, but I can tell everyone's like. And I'm like, this is what I do. And I'm like, here's what we're going to do. Yeah, it's so this is such a dumb example, but I remember feeling like.
- [70:09]
B
Man, he knows how to use the Internet.
- [70:11]
A
They were all grateful. Yeah. There's other restaurants. No, but they were grateful. They were like, oh. And I thought, oh, I love the problem. I love the problem.
- [70:19]
B
Yeah.
- [70:20]
A
Yeah. I'm built for the problem. So continue.
- [70:22]
B
And the problem is only ever like daunting to me if I, if I'm not in a position to be able to react to it or respond to it. Like, and if there's nothing I can do about it, like, I, I struggle on trips where I am not like, where it would be rude for me to jump in and take control and start operating things. Like.
- [70:42]
I guess that means I'm a control freak. But I'm not. It's like, I can. This is how I'm good at this. I can contribute.
- [70:47]
A
You're a director.
- [70:48]
B
Yeah. And solve these problems. But I'm. But I'm not your typical like, alpha whatever director you can. Anybody who works with me will tell you like one. I never notice. This is all every other director that I know.
- [71:00]
A
Yeah.
- [71:00]
B
Like, sees. They look at. If they look at the monitor, and they see everything that's wrong with it. I only see what's working. And I'm like, great.
- [71:09]
A
That's some optimism. That works for getting stuff done, though.
- [71:12]
B
It does work for getting stuff done. That's the biggest thing is, like, for the longest time, it helps me survive in a world and like, in a. In a world of like, in a season of your life, when most people have piles of unfinished projects. Yeah.
- [71:25]
A
There's no budget. There's all these problems. Like, yeah.
- [71:27]
B
That I would finish stuff more often because I was pragmatic about it. Now. Now it's at a point where, like, my. My director photography is like, you really want to move on. Like, you're in the shot, you know, like, that's funny. That's a.
- [71:41]
A
That's the theme I'm taking from this episode is I realized one of the secrets to managing my adhd, basically, how do I get through how boring so much of life is? And one of the secrets is always problem that you're working on. Just always have a problem you're working on. I always have an episode to crack. I always have a metaphor to unlock. I got, you know, a picture book to work on. Gotta figure that story out, whatever. Like, if I have that, I'm good. You can set me anywhere and for any length of time, and I'm good because I can work on a problem. I actually love it. The other thing I wanted to ask or say mentioned was we had an author on who's kind of a researcher, academic type. He has an. He has a book called Primal Intelligence. And one of the things he talks about in that book that I think is really incredible is this whole notion that the reason why you want to plan, become great at planning and have a really great plan when you go do something isn't because the plan's gonna work. It's not gonna work. It's because it. Planning exercises the muscle you need to make a plan when you're in the middle of the battle.
- [72:51]
B
It. If you map out the room ahead of time, you will know the room by heart when you get in it. You know what I mean? Like, you'll know all the exits and like that. I mean, that's. That's the. I talk all the time about, like, storyboarding and shot listing. It's like you're doing that so you are prepared to throw it out and know what you're doing.
- [73:09]
A
And I do the same thing in a small way in the interviews where I have a huge plan, all these questions, everything that I Want to talk about and think about. I rarely use almost any of it.
- [73:20]
B
Yeah.
- [73:21]
A
But if I don't do that, the interviews suck.
- [73:24]
B
Okay, so what? Throw me one question you didn't get to ask that wasn't part of the conversation.
- [73:29]
A
Okay. So I thought, okay, this might be an uncomfortable question, but I think that's the purpose of it. So I think a lot about how finding your way as a creative person is kind of understanding who your contemporaries are, maybe even being. Maybe in different times, you're fans of those people, but then getting to a place where you actually have maybe a critique or a different point of view than them, so you actually have reasons why you wouldn't want to be compared to them.
- [73:59]
B
Yeah.
- [73:59]
A
Like, that's really what you. I think, where you want to get. And so when I. If I was going to tell somebody about you, even before this movie came out, I probably would have said, I think it's in the direction. Somewhere between Lord and Miller and Taika Waititi and James Gunn. It's in this kind of sphere, not all the. It's not exactly like any of those things, but I think it has a little bit of all of those things, but also different. And I. And I could guess. But my question is, what. What do you think? Not that you need to critique these people because they're all pretty amazing filmmakers, but just what do you feel like, oh, they're not doing this thing that I want to do, or they're. This is the thing that they're. Yeah, yeah.
- [74:46]
B
No, that's a great question, because it's like, it's. It's a question I'm kind of having to answer in another way. Like. And when I take, like, a. You know, general meetings and stuff, now that the movies come out, there's a whole new list of, like, people that I. I have opportunities to get to take general meetings with. And, like, general meetings are. They're. They're just little blind dates, like, where you're. They can be awkward, they can be really fun. They can be whatever. And, like, there's. They can feel excruciating. Like there's, you know, I can imagine.
- [75:17]
A
Do you feel like you're performing?
- [75:20]
B
Yes. But also, like, trying to be. Like, it's.
- [75:23]
A
Trying to be interesting.
- [75:25]
B
They're not asking me any of the questions that I have the interesting answer to. They're like, oh, so you live in Nashville. What's the weather like there? And you're like, it's fine.
- [75:32]
A
How do I spin this to something cool? Yeah, well.
- [75:36]
B
And. Yeah. And I Also. Yeah. And so, like, I. And that's really what I'm trying to do in any meeting and failing. But, you know, the big thing you're trying to answer to them, to a lot of them, is, like, what my voice is. What is a Seth Worley TV show or movie.
- [75:53]
A
Yeah.
- [75:54]
B
What does Seth Worley bring to something and therefore, like, what kind of projects do if. Like, how will he fit into our slate of things? How could he fit into our slate of things? What projects do we have that he could. He could latch onto, that we could, you know, give to him? And it's really hard, like, for me to, like, try and say, well, here's what I feel I'm bringing because I want it to be.
- [76:19]
I can say, yeah. Like, you know, there's Lord of Miller. There's Spielberg. There's. Yeah. I grew up at the altar of Spielberg and Zemeckis, and, you know, I have. I am now at the altar of everybody. I'm forgetting, because that's what my brain does, is forgets everybody, everything I've ever made.
- [76:35]
A
And I know you're back in the future, guys.
- [76:37]
B
Yeah.
- [76:37]
A
I've heard you talk about. All you can think of is Twister.
- [76:40]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [76:42]
A
Talking about movies.
- [76:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And that was back before Twister had a sequel and was like, back in the Zeitgeist, it was like, let's talk about Twister, guys.
- [76:53]
A
Yeah.
- [76:53]
B
This guy just talks about Twister for two hours. For an hour and two hours. Good God, that meeting's bad.
- [77:00]
But, like, having to answer that question, you'd also want to be. You want to sound like you're. You have something fresh and unique to bring. And so, like, this is my roundabout way of saying I don't know. No.
- [77:09]
A
Yeah.
- [77:09]
B
I can.
- [77:10]
A
I can I interject with. When I think about that question, you're my. I'm tempted to go to what would I like to do better? I actually feel like sometimes it's more interesting to say, like, here's a bar that's lower that I actually like that I. They don't do. I think about Taika Waititi, and I think he seemed, like, begrudgingly making. Being forced to make huge movies. And I think about you, and I'm like, you want to make big movies? Are you?
- [77:41]
B
Yeah, but the problem is that the fact that I want to make big movies can hurt me in a way, because, God, Andy, you're such a genius, dude. The idea of, like, yes, my brain does go to. You're right. It goes to what I want to do. Better. And what I want to do, like, next, because I just made this movie with kids in it. It's. It's a family movie, but I. You hate calling it that because if they're live action these days, family movies suck. And it was meant for people without families. It was meant for every human alive. That was the audience, right?
- [78:09]
A
Yeah.
- [78:09]
B
But it has kids in it. So it looks and smells like a family movie. Everyone assumes you want to make more like Amblin movies and family movies. And you're like, well, I kind of want to make a horror movie now.
- [78:18]
A
Yeah.
- [78:19]
B
Or I kind of want to do like an old school, 80s, like action movie. Like, I have all these things I want to do and a lot of them I want to do because either I don't see them in the marketplace, like, what is my version of a horror movie? Isn't it? I could talk for hours about what I wish the action cinema was or could go back to being. Not to throw shade at great current action that is out there. But like, you're right. My brain goes to here's what I want to do next. But like, they want to know, what do you do and what do you do? Well, and the truth.
- [78:50]
A
Very true, very true.
- [78:52]
B
What you then said about like, you know, low bars, like that is kind of what makes like really great comedy stuff. Stuff that has this comedy infusion. Like Taika stuff and Lord of Miller stuff.
- [79:05]
A
Yeah.
- [79:06]
B
And James Gunn is that you are. Oh, man. It's like I've always said that, like, if you have writer's block, just think of the stupidest thing you possibly can. And my best story about this is I was years ago, years ago, like when I had a full time job making videos that played at youth summer camps that were like comedy sketch videos and like these like narrative series things that were some of the most creatively fulfilling things of my life.
- [79:33]
A
I get it.
- [79:34]
B
And we did this, this one where we did like three years, like we brought characters back and did this like trilogy of a story. And in this, when we decided to do like the second one, we found out that there were three main characters from the first time. And then one of those actors just couldn't go on the trip with us. We were going to take them out to New Mexico and do this big action adventure thing that we didn't do the first time around. It was going to be really fun, but one of them couldn't go. And so I tried to write it without them. I wrote it to where the character couldn't. I wrote the character out. I wrote a version with just those two and the dynamic was gone. It was like you had this dynamic between the three of them where like the lead, you had the lead who was. Who kept telling me this is the most boring role. And I'm like, well, it's Luke Skywalker's the most boring person in Star Wars. It's because the lead has to carry the story. Yeah. So you have the Luke Skywalker, then you have the goofy idiot character and then you have the sarcastic like dry witted character who the two of them play off each other while the lead is doing the story. Right? Yeah. And. And the sarcastic one couldn't go. So I tried to write just these other two that were left and suddenly the Luke Skywalker was having to be dry and sarcastic to like, to, to balance the goofiness of the other character. And it just wasn't working. And so I started to panic and I was like, God, what's something stupid? I was like, I was like, I wish I could. It was really. It was a complaining of a co worker. I was like, I wish I could just like have them take like a cardboard cutout on the trip with a cell phone. Tape duct tape to the front and, and that way the character can be there. And Andy, it was the, it was the greatest creative decision of my life.
- [81:22]
A
Yes.
- [81:22]
B
It opened it. That we did. Literally that.
- [81:24]
A
Yeah.
- [81:25]
B
And it created all of these hilarious opportunities for really great bits with like him being on him. He's in summer school. In the, in the short. In the, in the, you know, whatever the series. On a phone, on the phone call they like. So when they be gunshots on the other end, he'd like be like, it's not what it sounds like. And then they'd be yell, we're getting shot at. And it was, it was like so stupid. But it was. And it was because I just allowed myself to do the stupidest thing and opened my brain up to just do something about it. And so I'm not answering your question. I'm just saying I love what you said and here's my anecdote that goes with it.
- [82:01]
A
I love it.
- [82:02]
B
But I think.
- [82:05]
What are these? You know, I guess your question.
- [82:07]
A
It's a prompt. It's a great. Like how you threw that out. That. Starting with. There's just something that takes you out of the pressure of the. I don't know if it's the left brain or the amygdala or whatever. Just some part of your brain that's like, that doesn't Allow for creativity to flow. When you start, how am I going to be better than these great people? Like, that instantly pushes you out of your creative state. And then to say, how could you be worse than them but different, you know, like, but in a way that you'd like. But in a way that you'd like, honestly.
- [82:41]
B
Because the thing is you, Your brain, your creative, like, taste is not going to let. Is not going to let yourself put out something knowingly bad. Like, you're going to, like, take that stupid thing and turn it into the good version of it and in a. And in turn make something fresh and unique and new. And.
- [83:02]
I. You know, so much of that isn't sketch. Like, the. All the monsters we.
- [83:10]
Intentionally like, we're like, can we make monsters that are threatening and at the same time goofy as hell?
- [83:16]
A
Every time I saw the trailers, I would be like, I don't know how that makes sense until you watch it. Like, I don't know how I like the store. I assume the story is going to be great. I knew I trusted you. But other than that was one thing where I was like, I don't get how they look like that and they're menacing. Until you watch it, and then it makes sense. It's really cool.
- [83:35]
B
I think part of that was how the. Yeah. Yes. Some of the trailers we had didn't properly represent the way we executed it in the movie. And it's hard. It's hard.
- [83:43]
A
That's why it's hard to imagine, because it's different.
- [83:45]
B
It is.
- [83:45]
A
Yeah.
- [83:46]
B
Because it's like, oh, you're making something that's silly, but also the stakes are real.
- [83:49]
A
Yeah.
- [83:50]
B
And it's like, yeah, we just worked it until it. It worked like that. But that was. That was the goal. We wanted to make something that was incredibly stupid but also incredibly meaningful and real because, guess what? That's what life is. It's incredibly stupid. And the stakes are real.
- [84:08]
A
Very true.
- [84:09]
B
Yeah. And it's like. It's why I love the chair company right now. Because it's like. It's like the stakes are so real on that show, and it's. But it's not sacrificing any of its stupidity like that you expect.
- [84:21]
A
I love the whole time you're like, are the stakes real? Wait, the stakes are real?
- [84:25]
B
Yeah.
- [84:26]
A
No, they're not.
- [84:27]
B
Emotionally, they're even. That's the thing that matters.
- [84:28]
A
The emotional stakes are real, which is amazing. On another. Basically, we've just talked about Tim Robinson, but I. There's a reason I can't Believe that he. When I was watching all of the skits and everything, I was like, I don't get how this translates to longer form stuff. I cannot imagine it. And both with friendship and this, I'm like, oh, I totally. I'm on board. I can't believe they've kind of figured out the vehicle of how to do this.
- [84:53]
B
I heard a story from a friend and this isn't verified, so it could be totally untrue. But I heard that when Tim came on to friendship, the script was already there. But the first thing that they did when Tim came on was he was like, we're going to cut all the jokes. So they like, apparently went through and cut whatever was considered a joke out of the script.
- [85:11]
A
That's hilarious.
- [85:13]
B
It's so perfect because it's. That's what that movie is. It's like, it doesn't need jokes. It doesn't need mustard on it. It just needs the. Yeah.
- [85:23]
A
Just to put a little cap on it. And I don't know if this is the answer, but I do think when. When I think about you in comparison to these other guys, I feel like you're unashamed about loving the blockbuster. And I think you do have something interesting to do there moving forward because, I mean, you have a huge problem to solve. Like we've talked about where.
- [85:45]
B
Here's why it matters. Go ahead, Blockbuster. Why blockbuster? Why the blockbuster matters. But I'm sorry I cut you off. Please do. You're the last person in the world I want to cut off because I love everything comes out of your mouth.
- [85:57]
And I hate everything that comes out of my. But the block.
- [86:01]
One of the, like filmmakers that is out there today proving why the blockbuster is important. As Chris know, like every Crystal movie comes out, I'm rolling my eyes and I'm like, God, it's so self important. God, everybody's like, it's going to be so. Everybody's like, oh, it's Nolan. It's automatically gonna be great. Like, stop taking yourself so seriously.
- [86:20]
A
Yeah.
- [86:21]
B
And then I go and I see it and I'm like.
- [86:24]
Like, yeah, this is so good. And here's why is because it is this giant, massive, like universally appealing and accessible thing from a singular voice, from a singular artist's voice. We are getting taken on a journey by one person. One person. One person's creative voice. And that's. I'm saying one person. There is a team of people who are speaking into it, but it is a very specific voice not made by committee. It is an. It is A. It is inherently an act of self expression, but on a massive scale that we can all experience together. And there's something about that I, I miss about monoculture. Like, I love that. I love the distribution has been democratized. I love that creation has been more democratized. But like, the thing I miss about a monoculture is the communal experience of a thing made by a person. And that's why to me, the blockbuster movie is so important, is because, like, when it's good, when we all feel fomo, if we haven't seen it yet and we all see it, we're all gushing about it, like the way you and I. And it doesn't have to be a giant movie. Like the way we're all talking about Tim Robinson.
- [87:41]
A
Yeah. Oh, it feels so good. It feels so good.
- [87:45]
B
And. And it's the thing where, like, God, the feeling of getting to, like, right now, my son, you know, is 18. So we like last year, washed through. I think you should leave. I'd seen all of them, but I was like, yeah, you can watch these with me now. Yeah, it's probably overdue.
- [88:00]
A
That's a good moment. That's a good moment.
- [88:02]
B
And now we're gonna experience a cheer company together. And it's like. And it's that feeling of, like, as your kids get older and you start showing them movies you love. And it's. It's like we are sharing this together. This is not. This is. This is a thing that we are enjoying together. A connection we're having. And it's just like, God, that's why we're at. What's why to live.
- [88:20]
A
It was one of my favorite things about Barbie was just this.
- [88:25]
B
Yeah.
- [88:25]
A
Every person I talked to could talk about it and could think about it and reflect on it and it had. It created conversation. Whereas when I go get beers with my buddies, a lot of it is like, did you see this? No, I didn't see that. Did you see this? No. We gotta find something we've all seen.
- [88:41]
B
Oh. The worst version is someone pulls their phone out and makes them watch the like, 10 minutes.
- [88:46]
A
Oh, my God, yes.
- [88:47]
B
Video. I'm guilty of it.
- [88:49]
A
You need to watch this so we can talk. God.
- [88:51]
B
Yeah. My thing is other people shouldn't do it, but when I do it, it's ok. Okay.
- [88:55]
A
Because what I'm sure I've done it, I've done. I'm not saying I haven't done it, but yeah, absolutely. And I, and, and I think those. The other filmmakers I was mentioning, I feel like there's A little bit of an outsider.
- [89:07]
Irreverence. And you have irreverence and sarcasm and all these different things too.
- [89:12]
B
We need it right now.
- [89:13]
A
But there is. Yeah, for sure. And. But there is a. Like, I felt like, for example, the Thor Love and Thunder felt like a middle finger in a way to.
- [89:24]
B
To do you know what felt like a middle finger? Did you see Superman? James Gunn?
- [89:28]
A
But I loved it. I don't.
- [89:29]
B
I loved it, but. Oh, but it felt like a good middle finger.
- [89:32]
A
It felt 100 true. Yeah. Middle finger is a bad thing to make a movie and do.
- [89:37]
B
You're saying Love and Thunder felt like.
- [89:38]
A
A negative middle finger Just in a way that. To the mcu, to people that love this and. And look, I can respect it too. I can respect why you would want to do that and what's. Whatever. But what I think is interesting about. Or what's maybe different about you is that there just feels like you're. Yeah, just what you said of. Like, I would like everyone to enjoy this. That's a. That's kind of a. And not unique perspective these days.
- [90:10]
B
I think it's. I know not only do I want everyone to enjoy this, I want them to. I want what they. To enjoy to be something that came straight out of, like, the deepest part of me. Like, I want it to be something that is personal, that personally came out of me. And I want them. And it sounds like it's selfish, but it's. It's literally just like I want to make something that everyone derives joy from together and can talk about and experience together. And I want it to be something like in. In order. Honestly, in order for that to happen, no matter what, anything to be good, it's gotta have. I just feel it has to have some. Somebody's personal junk in it. It's gotta have like something. Somebody in there was putting something like personal into it. Whether it was intentional or not or whether it was like, you know, a massive contribution or not. It's just like, that's what makes up good art, is that it comes from. Comes from people's brains and hearts and. Yeah.
- [91:08]
A
And that gets. I'll give you one last question that came from my list, which was. I was gonna ask you why did you feel like Sketch was a movie that you had to make on a personal level? Like, what. What is it about this story that you lived or you feel deeply?
- [91:28]
B
A couple things. One, you know, having kids, being a parent, I felt like I had a lot to personally pour into it from both angles, like, from. And that's why the movie is kind of told from. It's a multi protagonist story. It's really the three main characters and two kids and the dad and the dad. Like, there's a thing that I just felt like nobody talked about when we first had my. Our oldest, which is like, as a parent, loneliness as an individual and versus loneliness when you've got someone living in your house with you, that it's. You're their only human connection most some days. And they're looking to you to know how the world, how their world is doing. They're looking to you to like, Anna, you feel lonely or sad. It is. It is an even harder loneliness than like actual loneliness. And like that feeling of like keeping it together, having to keep it together, that pressure, that burden was something I felt I could really write from.
- [92:35]
I also, I mean, the prologue from the movie was ripped straight from something that happened to my sister when she was a kid. She got in trouble for drawing a picture of her. And this is the thing that I think fits right here on this podcast was like, she. And it's something I've just been so. Okay, okay. She. When she was. She drew a picture of her teacher getting pelted with arrows. And there was enough blood in the picture that she had to go see a counselor. And she had turned out undiagnosed ADHD at the time. She had gotten in a negative feedback loop of like, getting in trouble and feeling like shit about herself. Getting in trouble, feeling about herself. And like. And so this was like a breaking point, this picture. She went to see this counselor and the counselor said, do you really want to see this happen to your teacher? Like, do you really want her to be hurt? And she said, I did when I drew it. I don't now. And then the counselor said, well, I think you did the right thing. I think drawing this was a much healthier choice than actually doing it. And I was in middle school when this happened. And I remember hearing it then and being like, that's the most badass thing anyone's ever said to a kid. Like, this thing that you did that made all the adults in your life sweaty and nervous and was actually evidence that you are a good person making healthy choices. And this cool punk rock thing, like this dangerous, scary thing you did was actually a heroic thing. Like, was actually a healthy thing to do. It just felt so punk rock and cool. And I was like, that's the kind of adult I want to be in some kid's life when I grow up. And then I grew up and I had kids and they started drawing pictures like that, and I started freaking out.
- [94:12]
And I realized, oh, you can believe two things at once. You can believe, like the core of your soul. You can believe that art is the safest place for violence while also believing your daughter's a serial killer and it's somehow your fault. And, and that tension felt like the most rideable thing to me. I just. All the comedy of that, it felt like there wasn't anything out there that was, that was, that was like. That just felt like something I could play with, like, for a while. And, and I felt like a Tony Hale role, like very quickly and, and then that connecting to like same day. I thought of that, like, I thought of how like I could make a big, like Jurassic park, you know, type size movie, like, like a monster movie, but I can make it with these emotional stakes and these emotional, like, themes and ideas. I got really excited and it led straight to that point that I was talking about earlier of like the climax of the movie and that being like such a powerful thing to me. It felt like such a badass thing to like, provide for the world, provide for kids, to get to like, hear and see and experience and to like, allow for adults to get to learn and how to create spaces for each other to be able to like, do that. And I. And that's the thing that, like, kept me going the whole time. It was like, it was all that emotional, like the, the emotional journeys of these characters and like those key milestones and the, and the themes of it all. And then there was a scene at the end of the movie. This actually doesn't answer your question, but I'm just gonna mention it. Please do. It's. It's kind of the emotional climax of the movie. So there's like the, the external climax and kind of the internal kind of climax. And it's that scene with Tony and Q, with Taylor and Jack at the pond. I called it like cry fest. That's, that's the. And.
- [96:15]
When I wrote it, I was like sitting in a coffee shop in Burbank, like a public space. And I'm. I'm just like, all right, I'm gonna put on some sad ass music and I'm gonna write this monologue. And I'm writing it and I'm just like weeping and I'm like, so proud of myself. I'm like, I'm doing it. I mean, I am, I am. I'm gonna make people cry. And then I turn the music off and I read it And I was like, this isn't gonna work. I am clearly like, I'm getting too soft. This is going. And this. Therefore, this is probably too much.
- [96:50]
Not a word changed. It stayed exactly as it was. But I experienced that same feeling every stage. When we got on the day and shot it, I was like, I'm like, we're all crying behind the camera because Tony and Q are just like turning it on every take and delivering something so sweet and meaningful. And we're all losing it. And I'm like, it's not gonna work. I'm gonna have to cut the scene down and out. It's gonna be too much. It's gonna just be so on the nose. And then it happened in the edit. Or I'm crying by myself here in my office and I didn't change a thing from that first cut. And it's like. And it's still like I watch it in a theater with people and I still cry because the actors are so wonderful and the music Cody did is wonderful. And. And it's like, I think what we're talking about here is like being vulnerable and just being vulnerable. Like, the thing that kept me going were the things that made me feel not just ready, but like excited to and willing to put myself out there and be vulnerable and soft and weird and dumb and stupid. And I think that's when I get excited about any project is like, oh, this is a chance to go be really stupid with purpose and. And provide joy and meaning to people.
- [98:01]
A
I love everything you said about that. I think there's.
- [98:04]
B
I wasn't recording.
- [98:05]
A
Let's start the interview.
- [98:08]
B
Let's do it again. This time let's record.
- [98:12]
A
Just repeat it. That's one of the things I get when I see. When I would teach and I would see really promising students being. Just taking way too much influence from people and feeling like, okay, part of the journey. I get that. The thing I want you to know though, is that the fuel necessary to do the bigger projects and the things you really want to do, you won't have them until you start putting yourself in the work. Still you. Until you start feeling that those motivating feelings of this is moving me. This matters to me, like because of my life experience and what I care about, my own taste. Those are the things that keep you going. When you. When this is an eight year project, it. It's so true. Another thing I love that you mentioned, all that is about that is that I talk a lot about this idea of getting high on your own supply. Like Taste wise. Like trying to hit your own receptors. And you know you have. If you laugh at what you've done, you cry at what you've done, you feel. You have to feel those things. You don't have that. You don't have your navigation. And. But one of the things that happens is when we hear interviews with artists and directors and filmmakers and everybody is that we don't want to talk about that because it's, it feels, you can feel self important. You can feel like, why am I.
- [99:34]
B
Doing the best job? Because I write it and then other people go do it. It. Like, yeah, I'm directing, I'm guiding. I'm, I'm, I'm being the Tim Gunn in the room. Like, but I, I'm hiring designers to go and like, and I'm hiring actors. I'm hiring, like, cinematographer. I'm like, I'm like, I am. Other artists are coming in and executing the vision. And so I get to just defer everything I love about my work into the work that other people have done. And it makes it a lot easier.
- [100:06]
A
So that's satisfying.
- [100:07]
B
Totally. Right? Like, there's a joke in Parks and Rec. My. One of my. Maybe my.
- [100:12]
A
I was just getting ready to bring up Amy Poehler for a different reason related to this, but go ahead, please.
- [100:16]
B
God, let's talk about Amy Poehler for an hour. But there's a, There's a great joke in Parks and Rec where she was pointing out all the women she has framed in her office, and one of them is her. She's like, because I inspire myself.
- [100:26]
A
And I'm like, f. Yes, Amy Poehler in the notes. Go ahead. Sorry I've ruined your.
- [100:31]
B
She always should be. But that's the thing is, like, I love that Leslie Knope has a frame photo of herself on her wall because along with all the other women that inspire her, because she inspires herself. It's like, you know what? That's why my office looks like it does. It doesn't have a ton of sketch stuff, but it has stuff that's meaningful to me because it's reflected. It's reflects my favorite things about me. Back at me. Yeah. And reminds me like, like what I get excited about and what I have to, like, put out there. Yeah.
- [100:58]
A
That. Me and my buddy Andrew Nyer talk about this line from an interview. I think it was Fresh Air with Amy Poehler. And she, I think she asked, she was asked, do you ever watch Parks and Rec? And she's like, yeah, it's like the funniest thing like, it's. It's my taste. It's exactly what I think is funny. Now, I don't know if I could go that far, but that is the goal. The goal is, can you make yourself feel something? That's the only thing you have. You don't have any other way of knowing is this good thousand percent. It's such an one. And then once you start to learn how to do that to some level, it's not easy. It doesn't happen every time. But once you do that, that thing fuels me, has fueled me the rest of my journey. Like, oh, if I know, I know I can make myself feel something. I learned some craft and some stuff like, that's it. It's so, so satisfying.
- [101:48]
B
Andy, the movie. If I get to make the movie next that I want to make, it is. It is. It is everything we've talked about in this episode. It is maybe the stupidest, silliest thing I've written. Has some of the dumbest jokes I've ever written.
- [102:00]
A
Yeah.
- [102:02]
B
And it is also, like, one of the most personal and emotional. I'm so excited about it, and I hope I get to make it. It's somehow sillier than Sketch, but at the same time, it's, like, a little darker and weirder.
- [102:17]
A
And I remember. And we gotta wrap it up, but for your sake. But I remember, like, five years ago, that same energy that you just had, you had for Sketch. Like, you told me something so kind of.
- [102:31]
B
God, I hope it's not another 10 years.
- [102:33]
A
I don't think it will be, but. But that energy is the energy of why you keep doing it. It just is. Like, you're like, oh, I've got something I like. And you. And you have to put in the time to get it. I don't think it's going to be that long. Thank you for taking so much time. It's great catching up with you.
- [102:51]
B
Can we just, like, get. Go make our dinners and come back and keep talking?
- [102:55]
A
We need to catch up more frequently. Yeah, but this was. This was just a blast.
- [103:00]
B
And it's good when it's recorded to say meaningful things.
- [103:03]
A
That's true. That's true. Actually, you know, I mean, I'm kind of annoying like that, where it's. One of the reasons I love podcasting is when I go out with friends. Of course, I like being silly, having a good time. That's true. But there are lots of times where I'm like, can we talk about something? Anything? Let's talk about a thing.
- [103:22]
B
I like you yelling that out from.
- [103:26]
A
Can we talk? Like we're not. There's no topic. There hasn't been a topic. I want something.
- [103:32]
B
Let me take control.
- [103:33]
A
Riff on. Yeah, so true. But thanks, man. I'm so happy for you. So deserved and can't wait to see the next thing.
- [103:42]
B
Thank you, buddy.
- [104:01]
A
I'm back with a cta. First of all, I gotta say thank you to Seth for giving me so much time and sharing so much creative juice. It was just really honestly phenomenal to catch up and just nerd out about this creative project that you've been working on for ages. And I'm just. I am inspired by you, man. If you're listening, I'm also back to do the creative call to adventure. It's called Take the Low Road. And it's inspired by something we were talking about in the chat where instead of getting a list of your market models, your peers, your contemporaries, your heroes, maybe even, and thinking, how am I going to measure up? Maybe take a look at them and think, how could I go beneath them through tapping into things I want to do that they would never allow themselves to do? This might be.
- [105:00]
Kind of dipping into your guilty pleasures a bit. I think it's so essential that you trust the things that you love that maybe aren't celebrated or seen for how valuable they might be. Whether that's stylistically or the type of stories you want to tell or the kind of illustration you want to make. Maybe you really like.
- [105:21]
Types of art that are generally thought of as less than. Are there ways you could incorporate inspiration from that in ways that your heroes would not? Make a list of these contemporaries, three or four people, see what they have in common and then think about what are. What's the. That's stuff that I also like that I wouldn't put on the list of my heroes. But like, maybe even as a kid I was into this stuff, or coming up when I didn't know better, I was into this stuff. Whatever, you know, I'm not saying you should actually be guilty about this stuff, but just see what are things I would like to venture into that maybe they would think are beneath them. That's a different way of finding your unique edge that doesn't require you besting these heroes of yours. I've been thinking about this a lot. It's something that's played out in my creative journey a few times, actually. Like, even as I'm doing picture books, I'm often thinking about how a lot of the people that I really love making picture books right now, they make such weird things that are really challenging or risky or, I don't know, innovative. And I think I, I really love more traditional storytelling sometimes. Like, I love things like, like Bluey is a great example of something that really has these like tight arcs and stuff. And it's not something that I see a lot of my heroes do, but it's something I would love to participate in. Like I love episodic TV growing up. I love things like Boy Meets World. And I could see myself like being a writer on something like that, just trying to break these stories. And I think that's a way that I could take the low road. I could participate in the books and picture books and tell stories that maybe aren't like, oh, you've never heard anything like this before, but make you feel something. So that's an example of it. So take the low road. Think about how could you do something that your heroes wouldn't in a way that you might not expect? When I say, what would you do that your heroes wouldn't? You instantly go to, like, how could I be better? Well, how could you be worse and be thrilled about it? That I think that's worthwhile. A weird way, a backdoor to think about, a unique selling point for your creative work. Thanks Seth. Thanks again. So, so happy to have you. Hopefully your next movie you can come back or even before that. Just let me know when you want to chat. It'd be great to catch up at any point. Let's chat.
- [107:51]
Thanks to Sophie Miller for being an editor and producer on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones for video edits, audio edits, sound design. Anim thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack. Thanks to all of you for listening. Until we speak again, stay pepped up.
- [108:25]
C
Why have three Gilmore Girls in a small town resonated with generations of fans? And what does a TV series that ended nearly two decades ago reveal about who we want to be? Generation Gilmore Girls is a brand new three part podcast series that looks for answers where it all began in Connecticut. Hosted by me, Chloe Nguyen and produced by Connecticut Public, the same award winning NPR and PBS member station behind the chart topping podcast Generation Barney. This series is about the TV we love and how it shapes us us. We'll take you inside the creation of Gilmore Girls, why we keep revisiting it and the impact the show has had on its home state. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the show, this podcast offers fresh insights and heartfelt nostalgia. Follow Generation Gilmore Girls on Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you're listening now. Trust me, it's worth the trip back to Stars Hollow.
- [109:24]
D
You might be curious what it takes from equipment to general Know how to make a podcast like this come to life. Maybe you're interested in making your own series as your New Year's resolution. Which is why you should check out my show Podcast Perspectives. The award winning series hosted by me, Jeff Umbro and produced by the poglomerate, recently named the best podcast production and marketing agency by PR Daily, Podcast Perspectives explores the audio industry through conversations with the experts behind the podcast you love from The Washington Post, iHeart, Pushkin, La Manada and beyond. We discuss everything from how to produce the best series to how to monetize and grow your shows to reach more audiences. If you're looking for a place to start, check out our recent Podcast Predictions episode where we bring on podcast leaders like Lemonada's Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Pushkin's Greta Cohn, Bumper's Dan Misner, NHPR's Rebecca Lee LaVoy, and NASA's Katie Conan's To Share Inspiring Takeaways for 2,026. Podcast Perspectives is designed to be approachable and actionable for anyone regardless of podcasting experience. So follow Podcast Perspectives with Jeff Umbro on your favorite podcast app today.