Creative Pep Talk, Episode 538: Find Your Point of View, Story Insights, and Artist/Audience Dynamics with Mac Barnett & Jon Klassen

Date: January 14, 2026
Host: Andy J. Pizza
Guests: Mac Barnett & Jon Klassen

Episode Overview

This episode of Creative Pep Talk dives deep into the creative journeys of Mac Barnett and Jon Klassen—luminaries in the world of picture books. Andy J. Pizza guides a rich conversation about how artists find their creative point of view, the dynamic relationship between artist and audience, the nuances of storytelling for children, and the invaluable practice of critical engagement with creative heroes. The trio also explores the role of looseness and intentionality in narrative art, the importance of trusting readers (especially kids), and the necessity of maintaining both seriousness and fun in creative practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value and Process of Developing a Point of View

• Andy J. Pizza opens with the assertion that artistic point of view is more essential than raw skill:

  "Having a point of view... is even more important than being super talented or super skilled. I actually think this trumps all of those." (00:31)

• Mac & Jon discuss how their own creative identities formed and evolved, often through dialogue and tension with each other and their influences.
• Jon Klassen on evolving his relationship with audience contribution:

  "I used to think as a storyteller, you had to be in control and give all the information. Anything the audience brought was a bonus, but it shouldn’t make or break the story." (09:33)

• Mac Barnett segues into how being reactive—sometimes cantankerous!—to other works, including those of heroes, can drive artistic independence.

2. The Artist/Audience Dynamic: Control, Gaps, and Trust

• Jon reflects on his journey from being suspicious of leaving gaps for the audience to fill, to seeing it as vital:

  "Giving opportunity for [kids] to bring things isn’t a creative cop out. It doesn’t cost you anything as a creator." (08:58)

• Mac compares storytelling to game design, where artists determine the field and invite the audience to play within boundaries (10:28).

Authority, Lying, and Make Believe

• Mac emphasizes how picture books inherently question authority—adults insist on truth, while kids sense otherwise:

  "Being an adult saying, 'I am telling you the whole truth,' and you as a kid being like, 'No, you’re not.' That authority of adulthood—the book is revered—but I want to knock that down." (16:31)

• The trio celebrates the agency of children as active, critical readers.

Contradictory Narration—The Power of Gaps

• Mac and Jon discuss Maurice Sendak’s view that “the pictures say what the words don't, the words say what the pictures don't," arguing that the richest picture books create tension or contradictions between image and text (19:19).
• If the text contradicts the image, readers always believe the image, reinforcing the idea that language alone is inadequate to capture reality (21:43).

3. Creative Structure, Storytelling Devices & Emotional Honesty

Dreaminess, Reality, and Catharsis

• Jon on his book The Skull:

  "A lot of my interest in storytelling was catharsis, not education... I used to be cagey about letting the reader bring their own meaning, but I’ve learned it’s essential." (07:38)

• Fairy tales and Japanese storytelling (Miyazaki, manga) are referenced for their comfort with ambiguity, open symbolism, and leaving readers with unresolved but resonant questions (32:10, 33:57).
• Mac:

  "Fairy tales are misunderstood. They’re not clean structure, not just didactic fiction. What sticks are the dreamy, weird parts, the bits of gristle never shaved off in 400 years of retelling." (34:24)

Endings: Resolution vs. Leaving Something Unsaid

• Stories don’t always have a “right” answer or a perfectly moral resolution—the important thing is organic honesty:

  "The best ones, the most memorable, are the ones you are helpless to in one way or another. Even for kids, anything too simplistic doesn’t reflect their experience." (45:08, 45:57)

4. Critical Engagement with Heroes & Peer Work

Becoming a Creator: From Mimicry to Taste

• The group discusses the growth from fandom to practicing creator, and the necessity of developing independent taste—even when that means disagreeing with your heroes (63:57-64:46).
• Mac:

  "There’s a heavily reactive, sometimes cantankerous way of engaging with art that’s so linked with how I write. Sometimes I get angry, and that’s strong enough to get me writing." (64:47)

Loving & Diverging from Influences

• They examine how even your favorites won’t “get you” every time:

  "Maurice Sendak has been my favorite since I was a kid... but after Outside Over There, his later books don’t do it for me. I find that liberating." (71:54–73:12)

• Recognizing when a creative idol's trajectory diverges from your own can be inspiring in itself.

5. Collaboration, Overlap, and Differences

The Magic of Creative Partnerships

• Andy notes the strong overlap in Mac and Jon’s tastes and process but probes for differences.
• The pair highlight how their partnership works because their differences complement rather than contradict:

  "There's a nice balance... what Mac likes that I wouldn’t do isn’t wrong—most of the time, I admire it about him." (105:07)

6. Fandom, Critical Practice & “Looking at Picture Books” Substack

• Mac and Jon’s Substack, Looking at Picture Books, dissects the form and function of picture books (48:42).
  • The project is both a celebration and a critical analysis—done through text conversations between the two.
  • The best literature for kids is both art and entertainment, rigorously crafted and joyfully shared.

  "It's about giving picture books the dignity of a real read—which kids do all the time. We're just trying to catch up with them." (54:11)

7. Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

On the Relationship Between Art, Seriousness, and Fun

• Andy:

  "What I love about you two is your ability to hold the tension between, 'This is art—this is as serious as it gets,' and, 'This is pure fun.'" (80:58)

• Mac:

  "It is a popular art form... the best works are extremely ambitious and entertaining. You have to do both things." (82:16)

• Jon:

  "Anything less than taking it seriously feels like a waste of time. But if you don’t let it also be inconsequential and silly, you freeze yourself up." (84:14)

On Trusting Children as Readers

• Jon:

  "It’s much easier to just assume kids care as much as you do." (82:59)

On Collaboration

• Jon:

  "There are places that John and I have gotten to in the books we’ve made together that I don’t think either of us would have gotten to alone." (108:53)

Key Timestamps

• 05:14–07:22 – Dream logic in The Skull and the challenge of “revealing” a character’s past by inference
• 09:32–13:30 – Audience participation: leaving space versus sole creative control
• 14:35–18:25 – Looseness in narrative, project-to-project variety, and “Is it a cop out to let the audience decide?”
• 18:35–22:53 – Word/image tension—why great picture books make the audience read critically
• 32:10–37:34 – Open-endedness and ambiguity in Western vs. Japanese storytelling and fairy tales
• 45:08–47:58 – The problem with didactic, over-simplified stories for kids
• 48:42–54:40 – Mac and Jon’s Substack: Why critical fandom sustains creativity
• 63:57–70:59 – Creative independence: forming different opinions than your heroes
• 91:13–98:40 – The alternate endings of Sam & Dave Dig a Hole—dedicating to the gag vs. maximalist storytelling
• 105:06–109:10 – Collaboration, differences, and the mutual respect at the heart of creative partnerships

Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

"Having a point of view... is even more important than being super talented or super skilled. I actually think this trumps all of those."
— Andy J. Pizza (00:31)

"Giving opportunity for [kids] to bring things isn’t a creative cop out... It doesn’t cost you anything as a creator."
— Jon Klassen (08:58)

"I want to, like... knock that [authority] down and just be like, look, just because this adult who got a publishing deal is insisting the world is this way, you don't have to believe everything he says."
— Mac Barnett (16:31)

"Great picture books always have some tension between text and image. You actually want the words and pictures to disagree a little bit."
— Mac Barnett (19:28)

"The best ones, the most memorable, are the ones you are helpless to in one way or the other."
— Jon Klassen (45:08)

"All we have is our point of view... If you can get it out into the world so that people who are receptive recognize a fellow traveler, that is the most Electric connection."
— Mac Barnett (97:56)

"Kids are children’s books’ smartest, most devoted critics. It will always be that way, and it should be that way."
— Mac Barnett (54:11)

"There's a nice balance... the things that Mac likes that I wouldn’t do aren’t wrong—most of the time I admire them about him."
— Jon Klassen (105:07)

Episode Flow: For New Listeners

This expansive episode is equal parts insightful, funny, and warm. It will resonate with anyone curious about how successful creatives develop their unique voice, enter into genuine artistic dialogue with their influences, and build working collaborations that challenge and support them. It’s a celebration of the craft and joy of picture books but also offers universal creative wisdom on balancing seriousness with play, giving kids (and all audiences) genuine credit, and the lifelong journey of creative growth.

Recommended Next Steps and Resources:

• Read Mac & Jon’s writing at: Looking at Picture Books Substack
• Explore more about Andy J. Pizza and the Creative Pep Talk community: creativepeptalk.com

Stay pepped up!