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Creator Science with Jay Clouse
#199: Katelyn Bourgoin – How to write great social content (and lessons learned from her recent launch) [Greatest Hits]
01:04:35
Katelyn Bourgoin is the founder of Customer Camp and the writer behind the buyer psychology newsletter, Why We Buy, which has nearly 75,000 subscribers.
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- [00:01]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Part of me would really like to change our model to something that's a lot less time intensive and effortful for us. But I also know that the thing that we've decided to help people with doesn't require 30 hours of video lessons. They need more than that and they're not going to get the outcomes with just that.
- [00:31]
Klaus
Hello my friend and welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. I hope you're having an excellent day from wherever you are tuning in from today I am speaking with my friend Caitlin Burgoyne. You may have come across Caitlin in your travels across the Internet. She's the founder of Customer Camp and the writer behind the buyer psychology newsletter why We Buy, which has nearly 75,000 subscribers. Caitlin is also the co creator of a couple of great products, the first being a 36 day group challenge designed to help you build an audience of future buyers. That's a collaboration with the Demand Curve team and the second is wallet opening words 26 and a half science backed copywriting techniques that's a collaboration with friend of the podcast Phil Agnew. Caitlin recently ran a new cohort of unignorable and from the outside it looked like it went gangbusters. And we talk about this quite a bit later in the episode because Caitlin says there were some aspects of that launch that she would do differently.
- [01:29]
Caitlin Burgoyne
We'd had kind of big aspirations for it and it still was successful by any means. If you get people to trust you enough to want to learn from you, I consider that to be a success. But we had we'd hoped for a bigger outcome.
- [01:42]
Klaus
That is some refreshing honesty about how Caitlin is feeling about her launch. But for what it's worth looking on Twitter, they enrolled 306 students into this cohort. So a pretty big success by most measures. But I love this honesty in terms of how she is feeling about the launch. And that's part of the reason that I wanted to talk to Caitlin because she is very open, honest and a lot of fun to talk to. Not to mention she's incredible at writing online, much better at grabbing attention than I am. So in this episode we talk about Caitlin's approach to short form writing, why she treats her content like a chocolate covered almond, the risk that comes with accounts getting too big and what she would do differently the next time she launches her cohort program. I'd love to hear what you think about this episode. You can find me on Twitter or Instagram, Klaus, you can even find me on threads. Clouse, tag me, let me know that you're Listening. I love seeing it. I also love seeing your reviews. If you have not yet left a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please consider taking a moment to do so. It pushes us up the charts and we are rising in the charts, my friends. We are in the top 50 podcasts on Apple Podcasts in marketing and your reviews will help us break the top 25. All right, that's enough from me. Let's dive in. Let's chat with Kaitlyn Burgoyne. I want to get into the mind of Caitlin when she sits down to create content. Knowing all of the different psychological triggers and all the different things that you know and you teach. What does your mind run through when you sit down to write something for Twitter or LinkedIn?
- [03:22]
Caitlin Burgoyne
At this stage, it feels fairly like automatic. When I'm writing content for social, when I'm writing content for a sales page or an email, I am so much more methodical. But I'd say when I'm writing content for social, like, I know how to formulate a hook that's gonna work well. I know how to kind of give like a tasty ending. I know how to think about the words that I use. Like if I'm gonna start the post with a negation or like a, a negative word. If I'm going to use curiosity, if I'm going to be really specific. When I give a number as opposed to a general number, if I'm going to stretch a number out to make it look really big, like, so that if I'm talking about like sales for something that we did, I'll always include a comma and like be very specific in the sales number as opposed to just saying like, you know, 25K. So those things come fairly automatically. But when I sit down to write a particularly a sales page or kind of like a really important email that's gonna sell, I'm a lot more methodical about it. I'm really thinking about every word because I know that people skim when it comes to those sorts of things. They skim social posts as well. But I mean, a lot of the social posts are not particularly long, so I'm more thoughtful about how I can use use these different techniques when it comes to those types of assets. But social, it's fairly intuitive. I'm lucky that I have this amazing archive. I could find us, you know, myself going back to the past issues of why we Buy or the product that I co created with Phil Agnew. Wallet opening words. And I use those all the time. Like I'm. They're my cheat sheets. I'm pretty lucky to have that.
- [04:58]
Klaus
You're saying that the social posts seem intuitive to you and you're, you're laying out like these pieces of the format that probably are new to a lot of people listening. So you mentioned, like, we have a hook and then you, you had like spicy ending, I think you said. So let's, let's zoom into this thing that is intuitive to you to say, what do you think are the components of a great social post?
- [05:18]
Caitlin Burgoyne
So I think about a great social post as a chocolate covered almond. And this is a metaphor that I first kind of came up with when thinking about why we buy. But ultimately, like, I think that when the type of work that I do, like, I'm not in the entertainment business, like, I'll occasionally like post a meme or something, but usually there's a lesson, something related to marketing, something to get them thinking. So my focus is to educate folks and to, you know, share insights that make them go, huh? And I want to learn more about that. Maybe that means I should follow Caitlin or I should sign up for her newsletter. And so the way that I think about content is that it's this chocolate covered almond. And the body of the post is the nutritious, tasty, crunchy almond. Right. But the top and the bottom of the host, that's where the chocolate is. And so you've got to tempt them to want to actually eat the almond. So that's the chocolate. Your hook is your first temptation. Right. It's going to be the thing that makes them go, okay, there's something interesting here. For me, it's, you know, firing off my happy, normal, like, neurons, like, I want to know more. And then it needs to end in a satisfying way where you either feel like, okay, she closed the loop. I'm done with this. I feel satisfied. Or, okay, I feel like I got something from this. But there's a next step that I know that I'm going to take and that's going to be maybe signing up for the newsletter or maybe clicking on her bio to check out a free email course that we created. So the top and the bottom, it should be really tasty and yummy and like satisfying. And then the middle is where the meat is. It's still gotta be good, but if you don't have that chocolate layer around it, no one's gonna wanna eat the middle.
- [07:01]
Klaus
Yeah, this is something that we've learned the hard way on YouTube. People just don't click on things that are not enticing and if I would've learned this YouTube lesson earlier, I probably would've been better at social media earlier on as well. Because it's exactly as you're saying. Like, you have to get people interested for the body of the thing to even make contact and matter.
- [07:20]
Caitlin Burgoyne
And for us, it's so hard, too. Cause I find myself. Cause we know exactly what the person's doing, as your listeners do. Right. If you're not a content creator, like, you may not know all of the things that go into this. You might see a particular phrasing of a tweet or, you know, a title of a YouTube video. And, like, you don't think about, oh, I've seen this a hundred times. Like, why am I clicking on this? But I'm still clicking on it. Like, I know what they're doing. And I'm like, ugh, this again. But I'm still clicking on it. Right? So, like, I think that as a creator, your taste evolves where you think that you're more sophisticated, but then you still find yourself reaching for the candy and it's just the way it is.
- [08:02]
Klaus
Totally. I have heard a lot of people talk about the hook, and I think the hook is probably intuitive to people as, like, an important thing. Like, if I don't hook somebody's attention, they're just going to scroll right on past in this river of content in whatever. For your feed, I'm currently scrolling. I haven't heard people emphasize the ending as much as you seem to be emphasizing the ending. What happens if we have a great hook and great content, but the ending isn't satisfying? Why is that so important?
- [08:29]
Caitlin Burgoyne
If your listeners are familiar with Nir Eyal's work, he talks about the habit loop, right? So all of the stickiest, most addictive products, or, like, you know, whether it be an app or whether it be like, chocolate, all have this same thing that they follow through, right? Where it's like there's a trigger that makes you go, oh. And then there's like a craving where you're like, okay, I want to do that. And then you do the action. And then there was a reward. And because of that loop, and then the next time that trigger happens, you're going to want to go through that action again. And with a content creator, like, if you don't leave them with that satisfying reward at the end, then next time they see your name coming in the feed, they might not feel the trigger. Right. They may not actually want to pause because you didn't give them that satisfaction. And I think it's something a lot of folks maybe struggle with, and maybe it comes intuitively to me. I'm certainly not perfect at it. I'll reread things that I wrote three months ago and go, oh, my God, that's so bad. But I do think it's an important factor that a lot of people don't give as much. They don't sweat the ending the way they should.
- [09:30]
Klaus
You're right. Okay, I like this. This is filling in a gap in my mind, because in YouTube language would call this, like the payoff. And they have metrics for viewer satisfaction. But continuing to deliver a payoff in whatever format, whatever medium you're in is actually an investment in future attention. Is what you're saying their reason to stick around. And hopefully someday you've proven so satisfying that actually it reduces the dependency on a great hook. The great hook is actually you, your name, your face, whatever it is.
- [10:05]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Psychologically, that's absolutely true. So how many times are there. There are people who have large audiences that can basically say anything, and they're going to get this massive response, right? And this comes down to a number of different things, like from a psychology perspective, but a big piece of that is this familiarity bias that we have where we prefer things that are familiar. So the first time you show up in somebody's feed and you deliver value, okay, that's cool. They were kind of cool. The second time you do it, it's like, oh, maybe they've got something to share. The tenth, the hundredth time you do it. Well, now they just expect that you're going to. So there's a set precedent and this expectation that even they're not critiquing and analyzing your content. They're consuming it to see, is there something valuable and tasty here for me. And if you can kind of get away with shittier content as you get bigger, maybe less insight packed, maybe less valuable, because you've built this trust with your audience over time that they just kind of assume it's going to be dope. Right.
- [11:03]
Klaus
There's like a halo effect at some point where people. Yeah, well, take what you're saying more seriously just by the fact that you are you and you are known. And when you're just starting, it's really frustrating because you look at people who have giant followings, you're like, they're saying nothing. Well, but we take them so seriously that those words carry more weight than somebody who's saying the same thing, that we don't have any affinity or Familiarity with it is really frustrating. But I also think there's this interesting phenomenon that I've noticed with some creators because you and I have been in the game long enough. We've seen people start from zero and rise to huge heights because people love the chocolate on the outside of the almond. Some people tend to become chocolate factories and there's no almond anymore. And eventually I feel like that actually rots the teeth of the person reading it. If you want to go belabor the analogy. But I think like there's actually a danger for somebody if you do become just like a pure candy factory, that you might fall off the top of that mountain you built your way up to because it's no longer nutritious, it's no longer helpful. But you don't get 100%. You're not getting the feedback from the audience that this isn't good because of the reputation you're currently coasting off of rather than reinforcing.
- [12:21]
Caitlin Burgoyne
And it totally also depends on who you're trying to attract. So both of us made the decision, the strategic decision to attract people who are more experienced, right. And you know, of course we're attracting really early stage beginners as well. Like I attract people who are just kind of learning about marketing or, you know, toying with the idea of building a personal brand. But for the most part, they're people who have been in the game for a while. They probably, you know, worked in house as marketers and done tons of brand building for their company and now they're doing it for themselves for the first time. And it feels hard. So it depends on who you're trying to attract. And I think that the candy factories, if their goal is to sustain on the, you know, the candy junkies, the people who are going to, all they want is a bunch of inspirational content, they're probably not going to take action on a lot of stuff. They're probably going to buy a bunch of courses that they're never going to open. Like you can build a big business on those people. I personally would not find that very fulfilling. Like, I really care deeply about creating outcomes for the people who we work with. Somebody who's going through unignorable right now. We're in the process of running our cohort based program. He sent a LinkedIn request because we hadn't been connected there yet. And he's just like, you know, just so you know, he's like, we had done a live session that day and he's like, I'm the course guy, I've bought like 10 of them. He's like, this is so exceeding my expectations. He's like, this is going to be the one that actually works. And like, I took that with like, both, like, joy and then also frustration because part of me would really like to change our model to something that's a lot less time intensive and effortful for us. But I also know that the thing that we've decided to help people with doesn't require 30 hours of video lessons. They need more than that and they're not going to get the outcomes with just that. And so I think that when it comes to just giving out pure candy and like, you know, you become a smartie instead of a chocolate covered almond, there's certainly a market for smarties and smarties can. You can make a lot of money, but what are you gonna feel better selling?
- [14:22]
Klaus
Yes. I love this analogy. To take it a step further, the majority of the population isn't thinking about their nutrition. They are following impulse, they're following pleasure. And so if you're modeling after creators who are going for scale, there's a pretty good chance that their customer is a little less discerning, a little less worried about nutrition and kind of stuck on the candy train. And I'm coming to realize lately you can't actually model after that person if you don't want that customer.
- [14:57]
Caitlin Burgoyne
So I was just listening to a really great episode of Alex hermozi, had a YouTube video. I don't actually watch much YouTube. I'm a weirdo. Like, I know that most people consume a ton of it. I consume almost none. I'm definitely a podcast person. Love your podcast, by the way. It's like one of my top faves.
- [15:10]
Klaus
Thank you.
- [15:11]
Caitlin Burgoyne
But I watch this video and he talked about their discoveries after spending, you know, four years and like, you know, $5 million on content creation. Because he got into this game very different than you and me. Like, he came into it with a massive team and a massive budget and a huge, like, you know, a huge established, credible story to tell, which is a super smart way to start. But he was talking about what they looked at, at the data was they basically found that they were like you said, they were kind of like trying to create for. For view time. They're trying to create for number of views. And they were creating all this kind of like edutainment content, which was crushing in terms of reach. But he was like, oh, shit, we're not actually attracting the person I want to attract, which is going to be badass founders who are Building big companies that they want the in depth educational stuff. And here I am throwing them all this stuff on like relationship advice and what to eat and these like all this random shit that was like doing well, but it wasn't. It was doing well in terms of the numbers, but it wasn't doing well in terms of the numbers that actually mattered. Which is it driving more pipeline of people who want to potentially have us come in as investors. So they are changing their whole strategy and they're going only into deep education going forward and focusing really on long form as opposed to short form. Because they're like the people who we want to attract was like, this is going to result in slower growth and it's going to result in not as many views. And all of those ego things that used to feel really good. We're going to get less of that, but we're going to get more of what the important thing is, which is founders signing up who want to have us come on as investors, who are going to be running great companies that are taking a lot from the content. So I think his, I mean he's, he's an interesting person. I also think that the way he did it was smart because if he would have started the other way, like it would be nearly as impressive, right?
- [16:55]
Klaus
Yeah.
- [16:55]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Like he created all of this kind of clickbaity content for a very, very broad audience. Learn from that. But then also as an indicator, he's like, okay, if I could do this for myself, you can learn too. Right. Those numbers matter.
- [17:08]
Klaus
The hard thing is, I agree with that insight. But a lot of the reason he's going to be able to do this new strategy is because he has the halo effect we were talking about. Exactly. When people look at his numbers, he passes the eyeball test to say he's achieved the things that I want. Because. Because most people think the thing they want is lots of followers, lots of subscribers, lots of views. And so they will take somebody who has achieved those things more seriously than someone who has not because they don't understand efficiency. Efficiency is a thing I'm thinking about a lot. Like what is the most elegant, efficient business I can run to get the outcomes that I want. There are a lot of people getting views and things highly inefficient. It's not resulting in the outcomes that they want. After a quick break, Kaylin and I talk about the challenges and the way to go about being on multiple platforms. We also talk about some of the bad behavior and lying that happens in the space. So don't Go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now back to my conversation with Caitlin Burgoyne.
- [18:07]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I think a lot about awareness levels of content. This is something that I'm only now spending more time thinking about because there's, you know, talking about, you know, the Alex from Roses of the World learning this lesson, you know, other folks who have these large audiences that are kind of chocolate factories. Like, I think that there's a way to do this that is the smartest way, which in my mind is like, you think about the ultimately the outcome that you want at the end, right? Like, what do you, what are you selling? What's the action you want people to take? Like, how are you going to run a business? And then you think about, okay, so I think of it through an awareness levels lens because again with the chocolate covered almonds example, like, you can have a good portion of your content be chocolate. And what that's going to allow you to do is it's going to allow you to attract a whole lot of people who love chocolate. And some of those people are going to people that like chocolate today and also love almonds. Right? And those are going to be your buyers. And so, like, I think about if you can focus on creating chocolate content, it's more of that kind of like, you know, usually problem, like that unaware audience, they don't necessarily know the solution that you sell. They're not necessarily ready to buy it, but they are somebody who would potentially fit that profile in the future. And then you can kind of use the body of your content or like what would normally be the almond to educate them. And some people will just zoom out. Those are the people that won't cut, like they won't finish reading that thing, right? Because there's more depth there. They liked the beginning, they liked the funny meme, but they're not going to read the whole thing. And then other people are going to keep going and they're going to read more and they're going to go, oh, okay. And like, those are your people. So I feel like there is this ability to, I'd say, like, you know, probably if we're going to give some numbers, people like tactical stuff, there's going to be like 60% of your content can be that broad stuff that's going to attract candy seekers. Because inside of the we're all candy seekers. Some of us also like almonds, right. And so I think that 60% of it can be that. But you've got to have the other stuff leading into the more depth in.
- [20:13]
Klaus
A Way this is a fractal analogy. Each piece of content is a chocolate covered almond. But you can think about your business as a whole as a chocolate covered almond, like the content operation that you run. Whereas some of these pieces might just be like, that was a nice little snack, but you still have the deeper stuff that is more nutritious.
- [20:33]
Caitlin Burgoyne
And like you talk about too, you talk about discovery platforms versus relationship platforms. Right? Like you might have, you know, let's say, you know, I'm. My dominant channels are Twitter and LinkedIn. Like I might use Twitter and 60% of that stuff might be like short tweets that like you read them, you go, that, that feels true to me. Like, move on with your day. Nothing really dense there or useful. But some of the people are going to go, what's Caitlin all about? And they're going to go in my bio and they're going, oh, she's got some interesting stuff. I'm going to sign up for her newsletter. And now they're getting almonds every week, right? Chocolate covered almonds every week. So I think that there's also some channel specific stuff here.
- [21:07]
Klaus
Yeah, I agree.
- [21:08]
Caitlin Burgoyne
TikTok is probably not a place where you can just serve up straight almonds. Like people to go there for candy.
- [21:15]
Klaus
Yeah, there's a give and take. I posted this in the lab a couple weeks ago. I was saying I've noticed that when my content seems to be trending in the wrong direction on LinkedIn in terms of engagement, I do what I call a selfie reset. If I go and post a selfie, which is my equivalent of chocolate on LinkedIn, doesn't have like much going on. Maybe there's a nice satisfying story there, but probably didn't teach you anything. But I know it's going to get high engagement and that tends to reverse that negative trend. Because what we know about at least LinkedIn but I suspect is true of most of these discovery platforms. If somebody engages with your content, they're more likely to see your next post or your next couple of posts as well. So if things are trending in the wrong direction, there's actually this increasing sense of urgency to reverse that trend so that it starts going in the virtuous direction rather than the vicious direction.
- [22:07]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I love that. So sometimes you just need to throw them some candy.
- [22:12]
Klaus
You gotta do candy reset.
- [22:14]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Ah, this is genius. Okay, I'm gonna start. You know one thing I'll admit, Jay, to folks that are listening that probably don't hear this as often and should not do what I do, but Like I don't pay nearly enough attention to any of the data. Like I know that you're really good at that. Like I only recently discovered where you can look at the analytics in LinkedIn.
- [22:33]
Klaus
Well listen, LinkedIn analytics are like objectively terrible. The analytics on LinkedIn are worse than any other platform because I don't have shield.
- [22:40]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I was thinking about getting it but.
- [22:41]
Klaus
Like yeah, no, it's. I have not found a lot of actionable analytics on LinkedIn but what I do look at is like post by post, which is essentially day by day for me. How did this do relative to my typical baseline in terms of impressions and engagements and that's telling me how things are going. I use analytics in a way as like a crutch. I guess crutch is probably the wrong word, like a necessity. If you're really good and intuitive at leveraging these platforms, you're getting good outcomes. Great. You probably don't need to care about analytics all that much. But most of the time for me it feels extraordinarily difficult and the only way I like find the insight I need is to continue an upward trajectory is like small little insights that I can incrementally compound. It's all felt difficult to me.
- [23:25]
Caitlin Burgoyne
That's fascinating to me because I would think that content comes so easily to you because you've like out of all of the creators that I follow who aren't the hermosis who have this massive team that can help them in the back end, it just amazes me that you've been able to grow on as many platforms as you have. Right. Most people really focus on the one and they get big there and then maybe they grow a team and expand. But like I've been amazed because like and your quality is good across them all. Like at least as an outsider who's just kind of scrolling.
- [23:53]
Klaus
Yeah, I mean I feel very strongly that any platform is like a sport. If you're going to compete on that playing field, you're competing against people who are only playing that sport. There aren't a ton of great multi sport athletes because the rules of the game change. The way people are getting ahead change and people who are putting all of their time into that one field of play are going to out competition compete you. So it's not wise to try to do multiple platforms that are like vastly different sports. And the only way that we can do it is we started to build a little bit of a team and they help understand the nuances of platforms. But also to be honest, I work A lot. I work a lot. And I think about this all the time. Like, there's a real life cost to trying to do multiple platforms.
- [24:39]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Yeah. But I think that you. I think you were very wise to do it at the time that you could, because I think there's also this, like, especially in the creator world or the entrepreneur world in general, this, like, there's extremes. There's like the, like, you know, you should work weekends, you should work holidays, and then there's the, I work three hours today and make 100k a month. Like, those. There's such extremes. And I think that people need to hear. My belief is that there's seasons in life for both. And before becoming a parent, I was definitely, like, I did a tech startup that almost like, killed me. Like, it was. I worked so much. Like, then I burned out, started a new consultancy, kind of scaled up my business, and then I still was working a lot. Like, and then I became a parent and I didn't have the time. And I'm so grateful that I built the foundation that I had prior to that happening. And you've done the same. Right. Like, I know you're able to become a parent and it's going to be such an amazing gift that you gave yourself because you're. You're going to not have the same capacity that you did before, at least for a little while.
- [25:37]
Klaus
Seasons of life. I agree with you that the earlier you can put more time into this before life gets more complex and you have more obligations, the better off you're gonna be. I was just listening to a conversation with James Clear, and he was like, I did my career really well. The book was published before I even had kids. But also, there are a lot of liars out there who are not owning up to the truth about how big their team is, how much they are actually working, how much they're putting into the business as a resource. They're like, willfully withholding information to make things seem more possible.
- [26:07]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Yes, it's very frustrating to me. It's very, very frustrating to me because I think that, you know, there are too many people out there who are either quitting because they're thinking, I'm obviously doing something so wrong because it's taking me so much more effort and I'm getting not the same results who aren't having the, you know, the time to kind of explore it and have the conversations that we're obviously having internally looking at models and being like, okay, well, that works for them, but it's not going to work. For me, because I'm not selling to this incredibly large, broad, candy eating audience like I'm selling to these people. And so my approach is going to have to be different. But it's very frustrating to me and I think it's something that has always happened. But I think that the Internet, when you are optimizing based on this, crushed, I'm going to do more of that, which is, I think what a lot of us are doing. Then you end up creating this candy factor. It's like people just want the Hopium, give me that Hopium, show me that I can quit my job and make a million bucks and work a few hours a day. And it's incredibly, as somebody who just can't bring myself to sell that, it's frustrating because I'm like, I know if I could just sell out, what would that be like?
- [27:19]
Klaus
I'm inherently distrustful of anyone who's trying to convince me of really anything. But especially like people who are trying to convince you to do entrepreneurship, do the creator thing. Just look at their incentives. Are they incentivized to convince you to do that thing? Because their business is predicated on getting people to jump into it. Similar to you. I've made the explicit decision that, like, I'm not going to try to convince anybody to do this. I just want to be there for the people who are already doing it and are trying to get a little bit of a leg up, you know, and that's like inherently a smaller audience. They have their own candy that they like. Everyone has a sweet tooth. But it's different than, you know, following my pure incentives, which would probably be to like, do whatever generates the most revenue possible. You have to listen to yourself because audience capture is a real thing. There's a world where like my entire business is just predicated on teaching people how to do community well. But that isn't exciting to me. Like, that's just not enough for me. So I encourage people to listen to what you want to do and not just purely what's crushing right now. Because you could wake up with a business that just doesn't look like what you had hoped for.
- [28:29]
Caitlin Burgoyne
That's a great segue into one of the things I know we're going to talk about because I'm kind of at this stage with my business. Maybe we can do like a little bit of like, you know, like live coaching here for the audience. But like I co created Unignorable, which is a audience building challenge for entrepreneurs with an amazing team. Demand Curve and Neil O'grady is kind of my key partner in that and it's done really well. But I think a piece of that is also timing, right? There's a lot of noise in the personal branding audience building space right now. But when I started the other side of the business, why We Buy, the reason I got into that was because I asked myself, I was like, I do not want to be, you know, I'm a marketer. I wanted to do something around marketing. I wanted to help people like me, marketers who are entrepreneurial. I wanted to help them be more successful. But what I knew I didn't want to do was focus on education in a space that's always changing. So, you know, like Facebook ads, like if you were to create a Facebook ads course, you're going to be updating that baby like every six months, right?
- [29:28]
Klaus
Totally.
- [29:28]
Caitlin Burgoyne
And so I didn't want to do that because the tactical stuff, as valuable as it is, I didn't find it to be as rewarding. And oftentimes the tactical stuff didn't matter if the foundational stuff was off. And so the reason I started at the time, my consultancy that then has kind of become why We Buy, was I was like, what never changes? I asked myself, like, what never changes? And I'm like, what never changes in this market in marketing is if you don't understand your customers, you're going to be fucked. Doesn't matter if you have the best channels, if you have the biggest budget, if you have the most incredible product, if you don't understand, your customers are going to be fucked. And so I want to create content around that. And so with Unignorable, it's not a channel specific program. So we don't talk about, you know, this is the Twitter growth program or this is the LinkedIn growth program. It's really around understanding the psychology of attention and persuasion so you can create compelling content that helps you build an audience. And we do have tactical stuff as well, but to me it's. There's kind of this internal battle happening which is still around. Like, I still get really excited about the timeless stuff. Like, that's still the stuff that I love teaching, that I love learning, that I get the most value from applying in my own work. And I don't get as excited about the tactical stuff when I think about the positioning for Unignorable. There's a bunch of folks that are coming with X only cohorts or LinkedIn only cohorts. And so we're not competing in a category of one right now. Because we haven't done a very good job, I think, in my mind, of really positioning it as well as we need to.
- [31:00]
Klaus
I would bet that the people that are doing the X only cohorts and LinkedIn only cohorts, they're appealing to a different customer fundamentally also because they're appealing to people who think like, I just want to do X really well. So there is probably like something that could be done in terms of changing the perception of unignorable understanding why being platform agnostic is more valuable than being very specific to a platform.
- [31:25]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I love how you said that. Because you know what, like this was internally, this is like part of our strategy, but it's not really something that we talk about. We talk about, we're like, you know, we do talk about. This is about understanding. Like, you know, it's based on the timeless psychology stuff. Like, yeah, we'll share what's working today, but we go deep on this stuff. But the idea of actually making platform agnostic are like a selling point as opposed to, you know, turn your. What is it? Turn a bug into a feature. Yeah, right. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:57]
Klaus
Because I think that's a provocative idea that people, even if like their first reaction is to disagree, they're like, but go on, you know what I mean? Like, it's not an obvious truism. So I think it invites people to do the work of learning more about the program itself because it is, you know, as our friend Wes would say, a spiky point of view.
- [32:18]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I like that.
- [32:19]
Klaus
I totally agree with you, by the way, about like timelessness. We are so over indexing on real time information and like near term information and undervaluing the timeless stuff, the stuff that doesn't change, the stuff that we've already figured out. We're constantly like coming to conclusions that have already been come to and saying, I have found this amazing new secret and then packaging it as some shiny new thing. And it's like, actually this is as old as human history and not that new at all. So I'm on the same wavelength with you. But it does like when urgency is such a driver of behavior, trying to say the value of what I do is timeless is a difficult proposition.
- [33:07]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Absolutely. So the way that I think unframe it is, it's the hidden reasons why people do things. Right? So we have inside of Anecdoral there's a framework which is like the seven Fs of attention. And I break down these different things, like fun, fear, familiar. But then within each of those Chapters, there's a bunch of cognitive biases that apply to those. And so it makes it easier for people to remember. Because one of the interesting things about behavioral science is that we're always discovering new biases and a lot of them have overlap with ones that have already been discovered. Because some academic wants to get a paper out and have their own name on it, which is so human, right? So this canon of work just keeps growing, but each one's kind of nuanced and interesting and there's different ways to apply them in different times. So it's important that we have as many as we do. But I wanted to be able to make them more memorable and to kind of shape them into these concepts that people could retain easier. And they say that if you want somebody to remember something, it's like pick seven, plus or minus two, right? So it can either be a list of five, a list of nine, anywhere in that they're forgetting it. So I went with seven. And then within those, there's kind of these other techniques that we teach. But I do think you need to have a mechanism to wrap around your thing, right? Like we talked about, you know, timeless is not that sexy. But if you call it like your, you know, 10 minute abs, 10 minute abs is great. Nine minute abs, less exciting. But if you come up with something called like the nine minute, like crunch, like, I don't know, I'm not athletic enough to come up with this. Like you come up with your own mechanism, right? It could be essentially the same workout, right? There's just like this one little thing that you do in the middle that makes it yours. And people who don't know about the, you know, the seven minute abs and the nine minute abs are like, wow, this is like game changing. And that's most of creation, right? Like, it's all we evolve. I started saying a couple of years back, I came up with something that I thought was really brilliant, which was this idea of context is king. So, you know, the content is king was such a popular thing in marketing for years. And I was like, content's not king. It's all about context. Like the right thing in front of the right person at the right time. That's what matters. Like. And so I thought this was really smart. And I've posted it a bunch. And then I saw somebody the other day say something about context. And I was like, I wonder if I'm the first person that actually said this. And I was like, kind of like puffing up my shoulders, like, interesting. And then I Went and I googled it. And like, it's been like, HubSpot said it like 10 years ago in an article. There's like the whole front page. Like, none of them are Caitlin's tweets.
- [35:30]
Klaus
This is why comedians get blamed for stealing jokes when they sometimes, like, I've never seen this. It's like sometimes the conditions present themselves to create the idea. And it can be created individually in a vacuum, in multiple places across different points of view.
- [35:47]
Caitlin Burgoyne
This was the other day.
- [35:47]
Klaus
Totally. Yeah, 100%.
- [35:48]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Because I posted something that I. Like, I thought I had come. I'd been kind of like, angling because I'm always thinking, like, what's the enemy? Right? Because it's so great as a brand if you can choose a villain to pit your audience against. There are some people who have done this so well and it's so effective for them, right? Like Justin Welsh. Like, it's very clear who the villain is. And it's your shitty boss that doesn't care about you and who doesn't want to hate a shitty boss that doesn't care about you. Like, we all want to hate that villain. And so I often think about, like, who's the villain, right? Like, not that you need to make them, like, center in your brand, but it's just nice to have somebody for the audience and you to kind of fight against. And so what I've been like, toying with is this idea of, like, you know, being unknown, right? Being ignored. Like, that's the. That's the villain, which is part of the name. Unendurable. Then I was like, obscurity, right? People not knowing about your company so your company fails because you can't get any customers. That's the villain. And then I was like. And then I said, no, indifference. Like, they don't, like, they see you, but they don't even care that's the villain. Then you'd posted something like, I probably pulled this from you.
- [36:48]
Klaus
No, I don't think so. But I think we probably had a similar line of thought. I mean, like the obscurity point. Seth Godin has said, like, obscurity is the enemy for, I think, decades at this point.
- [36:57]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I didn't know that he said that either.
- [36:59]
Klaus
Indifference. There was a point in time where I was like, I want to write a Steven Pressfield style book, but I don't have the resistance. Who is my enemy? And I came to the same conclusion. Like, I think. I think indifference is the enemy, but I'm not going to write that book, so feel free to Write that book. I think it'd be a great book.
- [37:12]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I think the other thing that I toy with, and this is probably not as wise, but I think it makes sense from my perspective, is, like, you want the enemy to be outside of the person. Because there's this concept that people like, when we do something wrong, it's because of the circumstance. But we like, when something happens to us, we're looking for somebody to blame. We don't want to blame ourselves, essentially. Right. And so for me, I've been thinking about, like, making your, like, your super old shitty brain that makes you, like, insecure and feel like an imposter, like, that could be the villain. But then that is still something that's kind of like inside of their control to change more than taking an outside figure and making that the villain. I think that that's probably the better path.
- [37:53]
Klaus
After one more quick break, Caitlin and I break down the differences between fandom and cults, and we break down her most recent launch of Unignorable and what she would do differently the next time around. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Caitlin Burgoyne. I've been playing around with this thought also because I do see the power in pointing out a villain. But I've been going down the rabbit hole. And a conclusion I've come to is that fandom and cults are actually different things. And the difference is fandom is an affinity for something, and a cult is in opposition to something they see as popular or mainstream. And I feel like the villain direction is more in, like, the cult direction, where you're defining yourself based on the antithesis of something rather than the affinity for something. And I think either is valid. But I think they attract different psychographics, and I think you have to be really intentional. About what type of psychographic do I want to attract? Because some people pick villains that people really, really hate, and their audience is, like, miserable, awful people because of it. Yes, but I don't think that's necessarily a rule. I think you can create a villain and not attract purely like Venom, but I think it'd be very easy to do so if you're not careful.
- [39:16]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I think you're right. You get the cynics, you get the, you know, the, like, you know, easy for them people. Yeah, I think you're right. So I think that it is that you have to tread a careful line.
- [39:26]
Klaus
Yes. And I think optimists are more likely to purchase. But you would. You Know buyers, that's okay. So you agree with that. So I think, I think optimists are more likely to purchase. And that's why I think it depends what you sell.
- [39:36]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I think it depends what you sell because when you sell something like you sell an ongoing experience, I think what do people have to sign up for? Is it for three months at minimum or is it a year?
- [39:44]
Klaus
At minimum year, it's a year.
- [39:46]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Okay. So I mean people, optimists are definitely more willing to buy from you, like more likely to buy. I would say if you sell something that's like under a couple hundred bucks, you're going to get a lot of people. People hate the feeling of not being able to take action against their problems, which is why I think courses sell so well. Right. Because it's a couple of clicks that makes you get this huge emotional reward that you are about to take action against your problem. It was interesting. Laura Router, I may be mispronouncing her name, but she, she previously had a content based business. She was actually partners with Marie Forleo originally when, before Marie Forleo broke out and did her own thing and now she has a software company. She just sold one and started another one. She said it's so, so much easier to sell courses than to sell SaaS. Even though there'd be free trials and everything. Cause it's like people love feeling control that they just clicked a button and now they're solving their problem. Which is why I think so many passive, kind of like on demand style education products never actually get used because the person got that kind of immediate burst of like, okay, I'm doing something to solve the problem. Yay me. But then their motivation went away and they kind of went on with their life. So I'd say if you're, if you're in the kind of low cost place, you probably get a whole bunch of pessimists who are angry and want to solve a problem, but they don't actually take action. Think about all the keyboard warriors who've never stood in a picket line in their life but will spend all day.
- [41:14]
Klaus
Like, this is so interesting because the implication of that is if you are really good at setting up your course as the solution to something I might purchase thinking I just purchased the solution, but undervalue the work required to actually realize it.
- [41:30]
Caitlin Burgoyne
That's 100% it. Like I think that any course that's designed with a specific outcome in mind, as you know, here's your problem, here's the outcome. Like people are going to buy it and go, step one, check. And then they feel good and they plan to come back, right? They plan to actually consume the content. They. And I think this is also why the course world is so interesting. Because there's so many folks like this guy who reach out to me on LinkedIn who's now going through unignorable, who consider themselves to be kind of perpetual course junkies. And they have done it a number of times. They get to the point where they're annoyed with themselves. Like, I'm not going to buy any more fucking courses because I never actually finished them. Like, I'd not even finished them because like your courses that need to be finished to get value. I never get the value. I never do the thing. I might even watch all the videos, but I never actually do the thing. And so I think then it's upon us as educators to create a education experience that is going to give people the highest probability of doing the thing. Yes. And that's drowning them in lessons in my mind.
- [42:32]
Klaus
100% agree. One small thing I've done in my courses that has had a positive impact is literally the first video is like, here's a hyperlink to email me, tell me that you commit to finishing this course. I love, and I love it because people just click the button.
- [42:48]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Commitment devices are so important.
- [42:50]
Klaus
Subject line is filled in, email's filled in. They hit reply. I immediately respond back with a personal email to encourage them, like, you're going to do this. And I do think that has helped. But like most people is like, I feel that, oh please do most people.
- [43:02]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I get people to do something different. But like, that's. I'm gonna add that I get people to write a post it note that they stick where they're gonna see it, which is like with my clarity call cheat sheets. Like, because it's so easy for people to buy that and go like, be like, I'm going to interview a customer. But then there's a whole lot of work involved. Like you got to contact the customer. You had to get them to say yes. Like there's like this, this fear factor. Like, what if they don't even remember that they're using our SaaS product and they unsubscribe. Like, yeah, but I like that because that's so low friction for them and it helps them form an identity and people really want to be consistent with.
- [43:35]
Klaus
Their identity of themselves and it's low lift to you. I mean, it's easy enough for me to just type back and say, hell yeah. You are but like a team member do that. Most people just optimize for the point of purchase and they just leave them go. Like even just sending out an email that goes out two weeks after they purchase to say how are things going? You know, these small touches stand out so much in the sea of failed expectations. This is a good segue to the last thing I wanted to talk about earlier. You mentioned that you would have done things differently in your recent course launch. I would love to hear some of the things that are on your mind that you would have done differently.
- [44:09]
Caitlin Burgoyne
So coming out of it, there's a few things that I would do differently. And of course like hindsight's 20 20, I think what I would have done differently. So there's a few big changes that we made this time. I'd say there's three kind of like major ones. We made it longer. So the first time we ran on ignorable, our first cohort was 21 days. This one, then it was 28 days. Now it's 36 days. Because there's just. We wanted to space out the actual lessons and exercises. People had more time to do them. So it made it space over longer days. We raised the price, which I think was a mistake. I think that psychologically we made the price $1,000. But from a psychology perspective, the kind of like our thought there was that we could use the number sign +1 +k which kind of actually makes it look small as opposed to having the three zeros. And I think the, the assumption like this was Neil was kind of like pushing to increase the price. I think the assumption was because we deliver so much in that, in the cohort experience, if you compare this to maybe like Ali Abdaal's like on demand program, his is like 1500. So it's like if he's doing a 1500 for like a on demand thing, a thousand for this seems like it should be a no brainer in my mind. I think and this is not something that I have data to support this particular point, but I think that in people's minds there's a price point where it's a no brainer. There's a price point where it's considered and there's a price point where it's really considered. And I think anything under 699, because 699 feels like five. Five feels like I'm going to think about this, but I don't have to think forever, right? 500 bucks is I'm going to think about this. But I want to think Forever699 feels more like five. Anything under five feels cheap, feels like affordable to the type of people that we're selling to. Right? Because the people that we're selling.
- [45:51]
Klaus
Especially for a cohort based program.
- [45:53]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Yeah, for a cohort based program. But anything I think over 699 now it's a thousand, right in your head. It's like, even if it's like 7:50, it's actually a thousand. The other thing we did was we ran an affiliate program, which I would definitely do again. It was definitely well worth it. We didn't give our affiliates enough time or help to do a great job as affiliates. It was only like a week and a half before, I think it was like seven business days when they were given the opportunity to become affiliates. And then of course, within that timeframe, they're all busy entrepreneurs. They would have had to like think about emails or social posts they're gonna write to promote this thing. We needed to give them way more time. So that's something I would do differently. What I would do that worked really well is we, we always do a presale like, you know, four to six weeks before the actual like enrollment period. And we limit the number of seats in that. And the goal is really just to get people who are super excited given the absolute best price and get them in early. And it also is a confidence booster when that goes well. So this one, I think sold out in 10 minutes. And we had, we had some real big glitches. Technically. We were using like ThriveCart. I don't know if you've used it, but we had major problems with it for both of our launches this time. But we had glitches, but it still sold out fast. It gives you that kind of great talking point, right? It's like it shows that this thing is popular, that people want to take it, that there's different price differently, Pro site is cheaper and with more, it's going to be the best value someone's going to get. So it's going to be the best price. And we throw in bonuses and we limit the number of seats. So then during the enrollment period, we had built a wait list and then we had our regular audiences and the wait list we opened up to them. We used something that we framed as fast action pricing, which is basically that after the first 20 sell, the price goes up, the next 20 sell, the price goes up. So it rewards people who act quickly and buy with a better price. So we had a wait list only price where Basically for that day, I think it started at 600 and once we reached 800, we were done for the day that anybody else that bought that day got it at 800, which is still less than when it opened up the next day, which would be a thousand. We had a great sales day that day. We were like super pumped. Like we got to 800, I think in like we sold the first 200 seats in 15 minutes, I think, like, and then there's more sales came in throughout that day, which is great. So we were feeling like pumped. Cause it's like, okay, so we've got the wait list now. We're gonna have affiliates open. Like and we're gonna promote to the rest of our lists. Like we're gonna see hopefully what we saw on day one double that with the rest of the stuff. And we didn't, like we saw once we announced it to the whole, like we said like the price was available, it was a thousand, it was a thousand, but you still got a bonus that you wouldn't get the next day. So like there was a reason to buy the second day. We didn't like, we didn't see any flurry and we were doing fast asking price to get on the second day. So it was going to be, it started, actually started 800 and it went up to a thousand that day. So basically like if you bought that day you were going to get, if you bought within the first 200 people, you were going to get the best price. And we like sent those emails thinking, okay, we're going to start to see the, the sales kind of flowing in again. It was super quiet, like in the next three days. Like we had sales coming in, but it wasn't like the first day basically was like everything. And so there's a bunch of things we learned. Of course now we emailed everybody who was on the waitlist asking them why they chose not to sign up. Got great feedback. Price was the number one reason. I know that price is not a real, like it's worth what it's worth. And if they say price it means they didn't think it was worth it. And we can do more to make it the perception that it's worth more. But I do think that in my mind if we had done a better job at positioning why this program compared to a number of other audience building cohorts that exist and had launched within a similar timeframe, the price wouldn't have been an issue. I think we didn't do a good enough job of that. And we still need to get better at that.
- [49:59]
Klaus
So that assumption sounds to me like you think the people on the wait list have awareness of these other programs and are considering those and or choosing.
- [50:07]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Those based on some of the feedback. Some folks like one, one post that like, is going to haunt my dreams. I'm going to do a post about this is one person said, I didn't know how this was any different than the 10 other programs I get promoted to on a daily basis. And I was like, oh my God, like, as a marketer, that's like the like. But then there was also a ton of folks who said, like, I'm doing the next one. I just didn't have the capacity to do a live program this time. I wish it was on demand. Like we got a lot of that too. People being, I'm definitely doing it. I just like can't afford it right now. I lost my job. I'm like, don't buy it if you just lost your job. Like that is, you know, focus on getting some income in first. But I do think that if it was differentiated as it should be in the audience's mind, not just in ours, then I think that the price wouldn't be a factor.
- [50:52]
Klaus
Do you think this is me just being curious because I've never done one of these rising price. Would you call it like fast action?
- [50:58]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Yeah, fast action pricing.
- [50:59]
Klaus
Fast action pricing. I've never done that because I've worried about my own ability to explain that and have that be understood and have that detract from the ability to just talk about the value of the program. Do you think that you guys were able to do that? Like, did the feedback you get, like people understood the escalating price?
- [51:18]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I think that there were people who didn't like it and there are people who got it and loved it. One of the things I think we benefit from is that a lot of our audience are marketers, right? Like, you know, demand curve services marketers, iservice marketers. So when they see a technique that they go, oh, that's smart. I should try to do something like that, right? So I don't think that. I think that they can be. Maybe in some cases they might be more critical than a non marketer. But I think that the because they're marketers are often more curious than critical when it comes to unique techniques. We had done fast action pricing with our launch of wallet opening Words felt, you and I and like the feedback on that was all really, really good, but we did it differently. There wasn't a big Wait list. Like, the feedback that we got from people that were on the waitlist are like, it's like, it's really frustrating to be on the wait list and like, if you don't open it up at exactly that time, you're gonna like, what's the point of being on the waitlist? So I think that there's a lot we could have done. The wait list people still had the best price on day one. Like then it wasn't open to anybody else. You couldn't find the page. You had to go through that link. So we were trying to be true to, if you're on the list, it is going to be the best offer. But I still think people were frustrated that it was not just one price for everyone on the waitlist, that you had to be on the waitlist and act that quickly. So maybe what I do next time is wait list all get the same great deal that ends the day, like, you know, after a day and then it's open to everyone and then maybe try it and maybe I would, I might try a different, you know, technique next time because I think next time we're, you know, we're considering how the program's going to evolve and shift. But I think I would probably rather have limited seats than have an endless amount of seats and do an increasing price.
- [53:03]
Klaus
The scarcity is the availability, not like kind of a pricing gimmick.
- [53:11]
Caitlin Burgoyne
And it's also better for the experience of the participants because, you know, this time after our first day when the waitlist with the sales were just so crazy, I was like, we need to bring in another host because there's no way we're going to be able to deliver the like if we have like, you know, 600 people going through this. Like, we're not going to be like Neil and I. Plus like there's a couple folks in the Demand curve team that are kind of like marketing support. Like we're not going to be able to do enough to give them all the value the one on one time that they deserve. So we brought in somebody else and which is a great decision, happy with it. But we didn't end up having at all close to the sales that we anticipated after that first day. But I'd rather see it be fewer people, I think. And I think we're going to try something quite a bit different next year.
- [53:53]
Klaus
How early did you socialize the price? That was the biggest mistake and like takeaway I had from my own launch was I withheld the price too long.
- [54:02]
Caitlin Burgoyne
I think because we were going to be doing the fast action pricing. We shared that with people. We were specific about what the price was going to be. So. But I think that we probably could have done it even sooner. But within, like they didn't get to the page and see it for the first time, they knew if they were on that list and they'd actually been opening some of the emails what the price was going to be. So I think we could have done it sooner, though. But let me share a couple things we did that were right. Not about that list, about that launch, but one thing we did this time that I think worked out really well inside of the community is I know that you're a circle user too, is we've created a gamified experience where we have something called hookers, which is a special space where if you want help writing your hook, you can go and you've posted it in there and people respond and we'll help you kind of massage it, make it better. Because we know that the hook is important and there's a top hooker's prize. And so that's been really fun because people love calling themselves a hooker. They're like, oh, I didn't have to explain to my wife why I'm the top hooker in this new program. So it's been amazing because we always had that space. It wasn't called hookers, it wasn't gamified, and it barely got any use in previous cohorts. And this time it's exploded. Like there's just like everybody who posts in there gets so much feedback and it makes their posts so much better. And so adding that gamified element and making it fun was something we did this time that I want to do that again for sure. So something good that came out of.
- [55:25]
Klaus
This launch, I love that. Okay. And last question I just love to ask people generally is, do you have a hunch that you don't have data to support, but it's impacting the way you're approaching either your content or your work right now?
- [55:39]
Caitlin Burgoyne
Well, I think that there is a. The platforms that I'm building on, the B2B platforms, I think that B2B creators are kind of rising up and there's going to be a huge opportunity for the companies that identify that and work with those creators and get value from that. I think that that's a thing. But I think that the audience of folks who are thinking about building an audience thinking about creating more content, I think that there's definitely some burnout happening from all of the audience building rah rah rah that is happening on Twitter and on LinkedIn specifically. And I think that there's a lot more people selling how to build an audience and there is appetite to for people to actually want to build one. I think there's a lot of people that are kind of over it, so I don't have data to support that, but I just do feel like there's a general sense of ugh from a lot of people on those channels. And so your people, if that's the world we're I mean, that's the world we're in. I think you have to be really, like, thoughtful about that and probably change tact a bit.
- [56:54]
Klaus
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Caitlin Burgoyne. If you want to learn more about Caitlin or follow her online or read her newsletter, go to the links in the show notes There. You'll also find our recommended next episode to listen to. If you enjoyed this, you'll most likely enjoy the conversation I had with Phil Agnew where he shares the psychology Mr. Beast uses to hook you. Phil and Caitlin are collaborators. They work together together. I think you'll enjoy that episode. So if you want to give that a shot, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you next week.