A (2:01)

Which is fine. I always like it when all of your scheduled activities at a conference are the same day.

B (2:08)

Totally.

A (2:09)

Then my one Negroni here could become like two or seven Negronis.

B (2:14)

Dude, I feel exactly the same way. I have spoken on the final day at the very last time slot before. And in the entire conference, you're like, I got this talk on the last day, and it's like all the energy and the nerves and all that. So, yeah, this is preferred.

A (2:30)

I think about that with athletes at the Olympics. Olympics come around every four years, and then some of these athletes like their races. Their contests don't start till, like, midway through the Olympics as a whole. Meanwhile, some people, like, have their stuff the first day, and then they get to just screw around an Olympic village for the Rest of the time. It would be so stressful to be at the Olympics, know you're going to compete and you have to wait like days and days and days. Anyway, that's why I didn't pursue the Olympics.

B (2:59)

As I was wondering, I was gonna ask you with your Olympic physique, that's.

A (3:04)

The whole reason that I did not become an Olympic athlete.

B (3:06)

It all makes so much sense now.

A (3:09)

Okay, so I think we're gonna talk about books for the most part. Yep. And then whatever we get into, we get into. But only one of us here has published a book. So where you said Yesterday we're like eight months in, seven months in. Because you published January.

B (3:26)

I published January 21st, so yeah, basically seven months.

A (3:30)

And I asked you a couple questions yesterday that I think would be interesting context for folks. So launch numbers and post launch numbers of your book, which is a self published book. I think we should start there. Or if you want to start with just like subjectively your experience publishing a book and how you're feeling now, seven months removed, maybe that's a better place.

B (3:53)

Okay, so let's start with numbers because I think that's like interesting context. So I pre sold a little over 2,000 books and I worked really hard to get to that number. I pulled out all the stops that I could think of and I am approaching 5000 books sold now. So 3000 additional after launch and I've given away probably close to a thousand books. Okay, so it's, it's definitely like more than 5,000. If I consider just like books and hands but sold books is, is approaching 5K.

A (4:21)

Do you have access to the figure of just like how many books have been printed?

B (4:26)

I do, I have like a spreadsheet. So. So it's for the first 90 days I only sold books directly off my website and then I, or I directed most traffic there. I had it available on Amazon and so on, but I mainly funneled people directly to my site because I wanted to try to have a direct connection with those people on my, you know, cause they, I get their information, their email address and so on. So I had it available on Amazon, but I didn't really talk about it. And so the only way in which I'm getting access to people who buy on Amazon or with, you know, audible and all that is if they download the bonuses and then they get on my list. And so my goal is always to like try to establish that relationship. But like I would say if I had to guess, it's close to like six or seven thousand Copies in hands.

A (5:08)

That's what I was trying to get at is like, I feel like for just about every author, that's probably the most important figure. I meant to re look at this last night. There was a, an essay that Jenny Blake shared on her sub stack recently that analyzed some data that came out about book publishing. And the punchline was that the average new release sells less than 450 copies. And you know, the advice that I've heard from folks is like, especially in the first year, you want that book in the hands of people who will actually read it. Because so much of book marketing becomes word of mouth over time. So you only really know if you have a good product if it starts selling beyond you. And you only know that if people read it and then refer it. And from where I'm sitting and what I see of the content online, people are not only reading but sharing about your book, talking about it a lot. And I'm not sure. Did you build in like share, call to actions, call to action?

B (6:15)

I did. No, I did build in like, hey, will you make a review about the book after about halfway through the book? So halfway through the book and at the end of the book. And I do have a standing practice where if anyone comments on the Internet and tags me about an outcome that they got from the book or DMs me privately, I have a little shortcut in my phone where I make the ask to do a review. And I'm very diligent about it because those reviews are prized to me. And I've got 148 reviews on Amazon right now. I know because I check it very frequently because I heard somewhere, I don't know if this is true or not, that like once you get to like 200Amazon reviews that Amazon starts pushing your book, that that's a signal to them that this is like a worthy book. And so I'm like very diligently trying to get to that mark. But it's also just like I think I did the hard work of like writing a good book and that's like the best I really did truly try. I've heard that like getting to a thousand books in hands is where you can start to see some escape velocity, word of mouth referrals and so on. But really it's like writing a good book is like the most important part.

A (7:20)

Yeah, when I talked to Noah Kagan, he mentioned that he had the specific goal of a thousand Amazon reviews because of some other metric driven thing he reverse engineered. I don't think it was Like, Amazon pushes this. I think it was. I think it was. He did an analysis of some success marker of books and the common denominator for how many Amazon reviews they needed was a thousand. I don't know. I'll have to. I have to go back and listen to my own episode on that. But the number stuck in my head is he literally had a spreadsheet of a thousand people as he's writing the book. He's like, I'm going to go back to each one of these people after the launch and ask them if they have left to review.

B (7:59)

I have a milestone that like in a couple of months or I'm thinking probably when the book has been out about a year, that I'm going to start doing concerted campaigns to get more reviews. Right now it's all been organic of when people have like, said, I got an outcome. But there is definitely like Playbooks or there's a tactic where you basically can ask people to reply to an email of a review and then in an automated way reply to them and say, hey, thank you so much for reviewing this. Here was your review. Will you now go and it's some sort of giveaway or incentive. Will you now go copy and paste this and put this exact review that you already just wrote onto Amazon and you'll get this thing or whatever. You have to be careful, like you're ensuring that you're adhering to Amazon's terms of services in terms of soliciting reviews. But like, I've heard that some authors have gotten hundreds of reviews. You also have to be careful because if all of a sudden a bunch of reviews get posted, Amazon will not post all of them. I think I've actually gotten closer to 200 views, but a lot of them aren't shown. There's this subtlety where Amazon will prioritize verified Amazon purchase reviews because a lot of people will have purchased it through my site. It can still leave a review, but. But it doesn't get prioritized in the Amazon algorithm, like showing at the top of the customer reviews. So actually like if you purchase the book on Amazon, it's better because it.

A (9:20)

Shows up month over month. What's the proportion of Amazon sales to direct sales?

B (9:26)

So right now Amazon is this hard copy or Audible as well, however you.

A (9:32)

Think it should be answered?

B (9:33)

I would say so. My Audible. I sold the book on KDP from day one. I didn't promote it. My Audible has been available since June and if I look at it holistically, it's about 20 to 25% of sales total between the two.

A (9:48)

Okay, so 75% direct through your website.

B (9:50)

Correct.

A (9:51)

Is your audiobook on Spotify?

B (9:54)

My audiobook is on Spotify, yes.

A (9:55)

Nice. Do you know from your side what the revenue share for that is?

B (9:59)

Yeah, I wish I would have looked up the stats, dude. I, like, really did not care.

A (10:06)

Yeah.

B (10:07)

About what the cut is. Cause I'm not really looking to make money on the book. I use Authors Republic to syndicate the book. Not on. So I went through acx, which is Audible's service, to get your book on Amazon or on Audible. And then I use Authors Republic to go on Kobo and Libro FM and Spotify and so on. And I. I think it's like, 80. I don't remember. I think it's 80, 20.

A (10:32)

I don't know the answer either, but I'm just, like, consistently surprised. I pay for Audible. And so every month I'm like, ooh, a credit.

B (10:38)

Right.

A (10:38)

Go get a book. And now I've built the habit to say, okay, I've identified a title. Let me actually go see if that's on Spotify first. Because so many books are on Spotify. If you have premium, you have, like, a limit of how much you can listen to. But now I'm just, like, really prioritizing my Audible purchases for titles that are not available on Spotify or if I hit my limit, it's, like, pretty impressive, dude.

B (11:00)

I've been exposed to so many weird subtleties of the publishing industry. After publishing the book on all the different platforms, there's like, these really weird subtleties in terms of how you submit the book, how you get reviews, how you rank. I've done so much kind of nerdy research about this stuff. There's always, like, more that I could be doing. Like, I'm not running Amazon ads right now. I probably should. Like David Kadavi, who, like, wrote. He's, like, an expert at this type of thing. He's like, has all these really sophisticated formulas of, like, how you can get more readers. And, like, I feel like I should be doing all these things, but at some point, it's just like, I don't know. I declare bankruptcy.

A (11:30)

It comes at a cost of something.

B (11:31)

Comes at a cost. Yeah.

A (11:32)

So if you're. You said 2,000 units before launch. We're seven months from launch. You've got a delta of, like, three to 4,000. So bad math. You're doing, like, 300 to 500 copies per month right now. Do you see a world where this is, like, a significant revenue Stream for your business, man.

B (11:53)

Like, it's been pretty cool. Like, it's been between 2 and 3,000amonth right now in terms of like net profits from the book, which is cool.

A (12:01)

That's just mailbox money.

B (12:02)

Yeah, Literally, like, it just, like it shows up now and that's super cool. And I never thought, I just discounted that. I was, I. The model was never like, I'm going to make a bunch of money from books. It's really nice, it's great and I love it. But at the end of the day, like, well, first and foremost, I wrote it for impact. Like, I very much wanted this book to help people, but from a business standpoint, like, it very much is a pretty profound lead generation mechanism for my coaching practice.

A (12:28)

Yeah.

B (12:28)

And so that's been, it's been transformational from that perspective. And so really, again, going back to like, how many books do I have in people's hands? That's really more. The metric is like, are there people that are joining the coaching program as a result?

A (12:40)

Man, royalties are so sexy. That's true. Passive income. The best. I have some courses on LinkedIn learning. You probably know about this because Joe is in the LinkedIn learning program. Joe has like, what did he say, 27 courses or something absurd. We're talking about Joe Casaboni here. Last month, my LinkedIn learning royalty was more than 2x higher than it's ever been.

B (13:05)

Whoa.

A (13:05)

And I haven't done a LinkedIn learning course in years.

B (13:08)

What was that from?

A (13:10)

Well, I looked into it and it's from one specific course. And I looked at the month before and that month was up on the month before that. But like, sometimes you just have a good month. So it's like, oh, I'm glad. Like last month I was like, oh, kind of a nice bonus. But this month with more than a 2x increase in typical, I'm just like, man, royalties are so nice. I. I would love a world where a lot of my revenue comes from royalties. And you know, that's probably going to be for me and most people, book sales.

B (13:42)

So speaking of getting books in hands and royalties and all that, one thing that I'm like actively pursuing right now is whether it's running Amazon ads, even if it's at a slight loss because I've seen data of like Paul Millard and David Kadabi and like, I'm in some kind of WhatsApp groups with authors and stuff now and seeing how they're trying to drive more book sales, there definitely is a model where like if you want to get more books, books in hands, you can do it at either break even or maybe even a little bit of a loss. But if you have a business on the back end of the book, like, yeah, I might be willing to lose a couple dollars per book running ads or having some sort of, like, book funnel where I can just, like, get as many books out there as possible, knowing that it's kind of a loss leader to, let's say, the coaching program.

A (14:29)

Because you did this, you. You have some metrics now to support this from that challenge you ran.

B (14:34)

Maybe we should talk about this, because I think it's. Actually, I'm happy to share the results. So I ran something that I called the 10K Brand Deal Challenge. And this was a test. So my thesis was that one of the biggest barriers or blocks for people to start doing sponsorships was understanding what does a 10k brand deal actually look like? How could I be a type of person where a brand would want to spend five figures on me? And a lot of it comes down to how do I reach out to a brand and articulate what, a 10,000, like, why they would want to pay me that much money? And so this was the whole premise of the challenge. So it was a live challenge, and it was paid, so it was $97. There was a $197 upsell. So it was going to be like a full week of programing. So you show up live on Zoom. I'm going to teach you something, and then there's going to be a bonus Q and A if you want to be, like, able to ask, kind of, like, ask me questions about your specific situation. You could pay $197 and get access to five live calls that we did at the end of each day. So it was a lot of live.

A (15:30)

How. What was the programming through the week? How many calls we talking?

B (15:33)

So it was five calls. So I started on a Wednesday. So there was three live calls, and then three live Q& A's. If you joined the Q and A. And then the weekend was like, practice. So it was like, you're gonna craft your pitches. Monday was the live pitch roast. People would submit, and I would, like, roast their pitches live. And then Tuesday was the. We hit send on those pitches. And then the final day, people started hearing back. That was the cool part, is, like, people started hearing back on, like, outreach that they actually did during the live challenge.

A (16:01)

That's crazy.

B (16:02)

And then there was this natural curiosity was like, what now the brand wants to get on a phone call with Me. And it was a very natural invitation to say, hey, like we have a coaching program to help you prepare for this call. And so basically we ran ads to the challenge. So we spent $12,500 on ads. I paid an ads consultant about $3,000 to help with the facilitation of the ads. So all in, we spent about 15,5 on the ads and we collected about 14,000 on registrations. Between the registrations and the upsells. So day one of the challenge, we were in the red, about $1,500. And so, you know, the goal was hopefully like, there would be a percentage of people who took the challenge that wanted to join coaching. So we had 79 paid registrations and by the end of the challenge we had six people who joined coaching at, you know, there was like an incentive. And so we collected about roughly 15 grand in coaching enrollments.

A (16:57)

Entrepreneurship, baby, dude.

B (16:59)

And so, and so it was like. And then we had a three day downsell to the course at the end. So if people said, hey, you know, I'm not interested in coaching, great, there's on demand course that you can join as well. So it was a 7 1/2% conversion from the paid challenge registrations to the coaching. And so like this seems like a pretty effective challenge.

A (17:17)

And that's a recurring model.

B (17:19)

And that's a recurring model. So it's like a membership model. Uh, and so the, the incentive was it's you get $500 off if you join coaching now during the, you know, challenge period. Seems like, I don't know, like maybe this is something like every time I.

A (17:32)

Try, wow, Justin's gonna blow up. Justin's got this figured out. He has all the right pieces in place. I know it's been like a month.

B (17:38)

Ish.

A (17:38)

Since you ran that. Have you had anybody join coaching? Not during the challenge period, but since.

B (17:44)

Yes. So that, that's always been my concern is like, oh, people will just wait until the next challenge to get the promo price.

A (17:51)

Oh, I mean, from the challenge itself.

B (17:53)

Oh, from the challenge itself, I don't know. I'd have to go back and.

A (17:56)

Because I would think that would. That will happen. You know, you'll have people who go through the challenge who don't join coaching in the promo window who still end up joining coaching at some point. And I would think you could probably attribute that revenue, at least in some part to the challenge.

B (18:11)

On the topic of books, I think this is a really interesting side note to this was that we were making the assumption that because we were running Cold ads to people. We thought that like the majority of people joining would have. No, no idea who I was. They were just like Instagram creators or people on the Internet, LinkedIn people, whatever. But about 75% of people just on a rough math who joined actually had read my book already, so they were already bought in. And that kind of blew our mind where we, we actually have an idea about how we're going to approach the challenge next time with that assumption.

A (18:46)

Okay, real quick aside, I think of your. You said like $12,500 ad spend. I bet like 2,000 of that was just retargeting ads to me and my wife.

B (18:58)

Yep.

A (19:00)

Every time we opened Instagram or Facebook, you're like, hi.

B (19:06)

Side note, I had so much fun filming the ads because I was like, I was doing these stupid. The reason that Jay's saying this is I had one of the ads where I like came on screen really suddenly and I was like, stop. You know, like, if you're, if you have less than 5,000 followers and you're still not getting paid for your content, whatever. I've learned that like creating ads is actually really. I actually think if, if creators realize if you're good at organic content, you can crush with ads because you can create way more compelling ad assets than most people.

A (19:39)

Yeah.

B (19:39)

And so we got a really efficient ad spend on those ads because, like, I'm a creator, I can make like thumb stopping content. And I don't think most creators realize if you have a product that where the economics makes sense and you can actually generate like really good creative, you can kind of crush.

A (19:56)

We'll be right back to my conversation with Justin at CEX after a quick break. And now back to my conversation with Justin Moore. Okay, so back to the book thing. That's why we're talking about this. So you notice that a lot of people coming to the challenge had read the book already.

B (20:17)

Yep.

A (20:17)

So we're seeing this pipeline of book to challenge to coaching. That seems really promising.

B (20:25)

So our next attempt, our next experiment in the creator science universe is instead of running ads straight to a $97 challenge registration page, what if instead we ran some sort of book ad where we said, hey, now I have an audiobook that I can play with. I have a digital version of the book that I can play with. I have a physical copy of the book that I can play with where maybe you just pay shipping and handling or something to get the free book. And what if I then put you into a special nurture sequence to help you along the process of consuming the book and getting kind of almost like, indoctrinated into my way of thinking in my universe. And then I pitch you the challenge in two or three weeks or four weeks in terms of when the next live challenge is going to be. And I think that might be a much more effective way to get people onto my newsletter or my email list and for a more efficient ad spend, because it was pretty expensive to get people to, you know, spend 12,500 and get people to join the challenge. Again, this is a thesis. I don't know if this is actually the case, but I almost feel like people are so much more primed and willing to, like, try this stuff and actually reach out to brands once they've read a little bit of the book.

A (21:44)

What's your level of endurance for running these challenges? How frequently could you personally run these challenges?

B (21:52)

I think the plan right now is to do them quarterly or maybe every two months. What I found is that, dude, it's so energizing doing these amazing. It's energizing because what I get most excited about is seeing people have wins when they can overcome some sort of block in their mind of, like, no brand's ever gonna work with me. And then they email a brand, and the brand responds the same day. It's like, a huge mindset shift for people that, like, wow, all it took was me emailing them and crafting, like, a good pitch that inject that into my veins. That is what I craft. Brave. And so even if. I don't know if this is good to say, but, like, even if no one joins the coaching program, I get a lot of satisfaction out of running this challenge because it is a big. A big deal to people.

A (22:36)

I also have to think so much of conversion is iteration. Also, like, just statistically, it's unlikely that your pitch at the end of this challenge was optimized for converting to Doji.

B (22:51)

Oh, no, it wasn't. Okay. Okay, let's talk about this. Okay. I'm so excited to talk about this because I was super nervous to do the pitch at the very end about the coaching program because I just generated, like. I just, like, poured out my heart, and I, like, really laid it all on the line. And then I just felt a little sheepish at the end being, like, and now join my coaching program for, like, so much more money or whatever. But Bianca on my team was, like, watching like a hawk on the very last day when I was kind of pitching the program. And basically, I taught for the first, you know, whatever it was like, 45 minutes. And then I transitioned into kind of pitching the coaching program, and not a single person left the call. And when you do webinars, generally, I've done webinars in the past, and, like, when you transition into the pitch, like, pretty reliably, people start dropping off. They're like, okay, now he's trying to sell something, or whatever. But not a single person dropped off.

A (23:39)

Cause this wasn't a webinar. This wasn't a live experience.

B (23:42)

Exactly. And so I think a lot of it was, like, kind of the positioning of the invitation. And it was very much like, if you're not ready for this, that's fine. Like, it's okay. Like, this is only, I'm inviting you as an optional thing, like, we can continue to support you for the year. And so it felt. Actually, Darrell Vesterfeld, who's my coach, like, gave me this advice that, like, this is an invitation. It's an optional thing. You're not pressuring anyone to do anything. It's an option. If you want to continue working together for the next year, look at how much you learned in a week, if you want to work together for a year. And so to your point, like, there's so much that I'm planning to change about how I'm going to position the offer in the next. We're starting the next one in a couple of weeks. I'm so anxious and eager to do it.

A (24:25)

So from my perspective, you have this wonderful free audit tool that gives people immediate, actionable advice on how to make their social media profiles better for sponsorship. It's free. You have this challenge that already paid for itself almost twice over the first time you ran it. You have the book that is maintaining, if not picking up momentum, which is rare for books, you have a lot of opportunity. How do you choose where you're putting your time and resources?

B (24:57)

I have a hard time answering this question, Jay. I have been mired in launching new things for the last several years, and I've never now entered a phase where I'm not. I've told myself that I'm not launching anything new. And it's the phase of kind of optimization, which goes against my nature because I like bringing net new stuff into the universe. And so what I've learned also from you is that a lot of times you don't have to do anything new or novel. A lot of times you could just, like, look at kind of what's working and improve on those things. And I think that's what I'm forcing. I'M forcing myself my hand to just like this challenge, for example, like, what do I need to do to just get as many people as possible into that challenge and that's it. I don't need to do anything else. Like, I've kind of already proved out, like, hopefully, and maybe things break at scale. Maybe that's all I really need to do. And that's okay. I don't have the answer.

A (25:53)

Since you self published this book, you could do so many experiments with the actual content of this book. Like, this book itself could drive people to a challenge. Opt in page.

B (26:02)

Okay, so we've talked about this a little bit, but, like, I'm thinking about doing a lot of creative things with the book, including custom versions of the book with conferences where I have a custom cover, where it's the conference XYZ edition of the book. I'm thinking about doing collaborative editions of the book where it's the creator science version of Sponsor Magnet. Because I do print on demand through Lulu and Tilt Publishing. I could literally do that. I could say, anytime you want to share, hey, you should go read my friend Justin's book. You have a special link.

A (26:32)

I think it's so interesting where they.

B (26:34)

Can go and then when they get it in the mail, it has a forward written by you.

A (26:37)

Yeah, I think it's so interesting where.

B (26:39)

It'S like, hey, like, here's why I think this book is great or here's why how sponsorships fit into my business. And it's kind of like a cool and novel thing that you. You could do. Like, it's cool to me because you're getting to refer people to me. It's cool to you because you're getting to rub off, you know, your own kind of take on, like, why this person that you recommend in the book should care. I don't know. I feel like there's like, a lot of really interesting things you can do with Print on Demand.

A (27:02)

Totally. I don't know if this fits here, but, you know, you sent me, like, a proposed cover for one of the collaborations you were thinking about doing, and it's a different color. Have you seen what prime does with their bottles?

B (27:12)

Tell me.

A (27:13)

So Prime, Logan Paul's energy drink, they create custom flavors and different bottle colors for different partners. And this is actually created an appetite for people to collect different bottles to be like, I have this color. And you can have like this interesting rarity feature to this. You could have had the CEX 2025 version of sponsor Magnet. I think it's really interesting. Nobody does this. And that's what Print on Demand lets you do. I think it's really interesting.

B (27:45)

So I have a conference that I'm actively. I don't want to, like, jinx it or whatever, but it looks like they're going to purchase 2,000 copies of a custom version of the book. Thinking about how hard I worked to get 2000 pre orders, and then this conference, in one fell swoop, is going to get into the hands of 2,000 people. Maybe it's a bit different because 2,000 individual people buying it is maybe a different. A bit different than like, 2000. Oh, free book. Like, am I going to read this? Like, it's probably a bit different in terms of engagement and quality and all that. But, like, even if I don't know 25% of those people, that's two, you know, you know, a good amount of people. I'm not going to do public math here. 500 after drinking a glass of wine, even if 25% of those people, 500 people read the book, that's huge. That's amazing. You know, and so the time investment for me to work on a little bit of a unique cover and a cool forward about their conference, like, it's probably worth it.

A (28:41)

Totally. You're not rewriting the book.

B (28:43)

Right.

A (28:44)

You're, like, making additions to it, contextualizing it. But I do think that the other opportunity of self publishing is all of the different ways you can integrate the content of the book back to your digital properties and priorities. Because traditionally published, that thing is set. If I wanted to go back and be like, I wish I would have added this URL for this resource here, like, that's got to be in. And then it's just got to. It's got to be there.

B (29:12)

Can I get your take on what's next for me in terms of, like, a lot of people. Oh, what's book number two? Like, what do you get? A lot of people have asked me, hey, can you write a book from the brand's perspective? How can we as brands facilitate better brand partnerships with creators and so on? And I have hesitated to, like, you know, commit to anything or whatever. One idea I've had is, like, I could maybe bank the rest of my career on the Chicken Soup for the Soul strategy, where I say, this is sponsor magnet for YouTubers, sponsor magnet for podcasters, Sponsor Magnet for nonprofits, Sponsor Magnet for whatever. Like, you think of, like, 20 or 25 books, little micro editions of the book that I could write probably for the rest of my career on this. What do you think of that idea?

A (30:03)

I think it's really smart. I think it's definitely in front of you. And I think I already told you this. I think with every release of that book, you remove some element of future optionality for a book outside of this universe. So if you're like really wanting to double down on this, every new book in the franchise, in the path, I feel like just strengthens that position. But also because you're strengthening that position, it becomes harder and harder to break out of that in the future. But like, there are so many lateral moves around sponsorship. You could do, as you mentioned, like nonprofits, you could do the brand side. So many businesses that are not traditionally creator businesses could have sponsorship elements to what they do. So I feel like you have a long Runway. If you have conviction that you just want to keep running down that path for 10 years, probably minimum, if you want to release more books in that direction. I do think that the creator wizard brand starts to be a little limiting.

B (31:05)

Well, we've talked about this, Jay, that I would really love to change the name of the brand if I could get my hands on the brand name and URL that I really want. But that has been elusive.

A (31:16)

Yeah, yeah. Stick around. We will finish this conversation with Justin after one last quick break. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Justin.

B (31:33)

If I could ask you, now that you have gone down the road of putting your book proposal together and also, you know, being thoughtful about how you're balancing your time between your current business and potentially this new book that you're going to be writing, how are you thinking about the role that a book plays in your career?

A (31:54)

As of this recording, August 25th, my current state of mind is that I want to be a career author, which is a crazy thing to say for somebody who hasn't written a book yet. But I've enjoyed the proposal and writing process so much that I would love to make this activity how I spend my time. Subject could change, I don't know. If this book is successful, do I go down the franchise Chicken Soup for the Soul path? I don't know. I'm kind of the mind that I want to explore other tangential ideas to it that live under a larger umbrella of basically like interpersonal communication and relationships. But I've loved the process so much. So my thinking at this point, I have literally thought since high school that I want to write a book, was the thought then. And I had to actually get the wheels turning to do that. So this book has been an exercise in saying I want to see the entire process front to back of traditional publishing to know if I want to do that, at least to the point of seeing if the industry is interested and to what degree. And is that interesting to me, because even if the industry is interested, you have questions of like, okay, what's the timeline? What's the financial design of this deal? What IP rights am I giving up versus not giving up? So there's like a lot of steps that would need to happen for me to sign a traditional deal, but I wanted to see what that process was like before thinking about hybrid, and then I want to see what that process is like before thinking about self publishing. If I were writing this book strictly for the audience I have already attracted, I would self publish because I don't think traditional publishing by default brings a ton of distribution. But I do think if you are thinking about being a career author and you want to get outside of the audience you have built, I think you still have to do traditional to do that. And so that's what I'm exploring.

B (34:06)

How much of wanting to get outside your current audience, how much of it is wanting to create optionality for yourself, be able to speak. This is hard because I feel like a lot of people when they start online businesses, they search around for almost product market fit or customer market fit or content market fit, and then they find something that's working and then they kind of double down and then they create a business, they start making money and they're like, oh wait, they wake up like two years later and they're like, do I really like this business? Do I really like serving this type of audience? How much of it for you is like creating optionality for yourself? And this is the vehicle to do so versus like creating a course or something or some sort of sprint or accelerator around different topic. Like, are you looking at the book as the vehicle to give you that option or what?

A (34:56)

When I started this business in 2017, which was at the time just like a newsletter that was basically a diary, it wasn't really until like 2019 that I got serious about content creators as the audience and the subject matter of my writing. I loved the idea of being a creator, but I didn't know what I wanted to create about. So I did the thing that everybody does and is still doing, which is like, well, I'm so obsessed with the idea of being a creator. I'm just going to write about being a creator. And I've long known that I aspire to have a larger impact in terms of the number of people I reach.

B (35:31)

Where does that come from?

A (35:33)

I just feel like I'm only floating around this rock in this meat sack once, you know, like I only get one go at this. So I think I have like a really strong skill set and I think I have a balanced perspective that doesn't typically get broad exposure.

B (35:55)

Bro, can we talk about this for a second? In your presentation today, one of your points was you gotta call your shot. And this is you calling your shot because I agree with you. You are a superb writer.

A (36:08)

Thank you.

B (36:08)

You have an unrivaled skill set at analogies, at storytelling, at collating and curating interesting anecdotes and stories from other people, research books, articles, and using that to create new and novel insights. And so like, I don't feel like we do enough of this as creators or entrepreneurs that we just kind of call our shot and be like, I'm actually really good at this and more people could benefit from my superpower.

A (36:37)

Yeah. The hard thing has been it's just a puzzle because I knew if I want to eventually reach a larger number of people on the planet, like the thing is, I could make a ton of money creating for creators forever. It's a well capitalized audience. I love talking to creators because there are unicorns of people that combine these incredible list of skill sets that's just so uncommon. So it's like infinitely interesting to talk to creators, but in terms of number of people in the market, creators are a subset of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs are a tiny subset of the overall population. And so I just feel like I am in a small market that frankly is overserved and I'm still a very ambitious person. But in this market, I don't think I can be the number one person for this material on my own terms. Because you have your Alex Hormozis, you have your Colin and Samirs playing very different games, but they're, they're making choices and doing things in a way that they're going to out compete me indefinitely for as long as I try to do it.

B (37:58)

Let me, let me ask you something. Let's pull the thread here for a second. Let's say you sell your book, it publishes. What are your metrics for success? Where you say, I have accomplished the thing that I set out to do, I've sold this number of copies, I've reached a broader audience. I'm speaking on different stages. Like, how are you going to know whether you've accomplished this?

A (38:19)

This is super tricky because if I were to give you metric based Results for whether this book is a success or not, then I'm kind of painting myself into a very black and white corner of this was successful or not. And the hard thing is to write this book as well as I need to write it. I need to dedicate a ton of my time to it. And it's hard to justify dedicating a ton of my time to something that does not have a clear, likely financial outcome when I could just dedicate all that time to the core business and just cash flow. So I'm really struggling because on one hand, I need to approach this project with a crazy, audacious goal to justify the time. On the other hand, a book is like the. The wrong kind of asymmetric bet, where like most asymmetric bets, you want low downside risk, super high ceiling. A book is like super low downside risk. It's a huge opportunity cost and the upside is uncertain for sure. But also, like, there aren't a ton of hugely successful financial titles. But I want that. Like, I want to write a book that sells millions of copies. I do. If I didn't say that, I would be lying. And so part of the math of what book should I write? I needed to solve the problem of could I see this being relevant to a market that large that has my existing audience within it, which was a particularly difficult puzzle to solve.

B (40:08)

Well, knowing everything I know about the book that you're working on, I absolutely think that's going to happen.

A (40:13)

I think so too. I mean, you have to write a good book. And yeah, I'll tell you, like, you know, as creators, we have equal part entrepreneur and artist. And I think for the last eight years, the entrepreneur has been driving the bus for how I'm spending my time and what I'm building. And as a writer, my best writing is not. When I think of my best writing, I don't think about it in terms of this converted to the most customers. I think about it in terms of am I proud of that piece of writing? And that's art. And I feel like this project is letting the artists drive the bus a little bit more. Almost like. Almost like giving the artist part of my mind, like a budget to play and say, okay, I'll trust you. Let's see if you can figure this out. And it's so fun and so pleasing. And as I was saying earlier, like, if I did write a book that reached millions of people, that would be a pretty nice financial outcome. It would be a model that I love and the way traditional publishing works if you get on that path and you like doing that, you get an advance, it's paid out in four pieces, you get 25%, typically at the point of signing a contract, 25% when you turn in the manuscript, 25% when it's published, and then 25% a year later. And then at some point your book earns out and you start earning royalties, hopefully if it goes well. But if you just get on this path of like, you sign a book deal, you publish, you sign a book deal, you publish, you start to see how your calendar gets interrupted in a positive way with these like 25% tranches of little bits of advance. And hopefully you're doing well as an author. So the advances are pretty good and you get some cash flow to fund you to do the writing work, and then eventually you just start collecting royalties. And I could see a future 10 years from now where I've published two or three books and these things are really starting to add up and I can't think of a better life, frankly.

B (42:13)

I think that one thing I've learned between our two stories about the different ways in which we've approached publishing a book is that it's kind of choose.

A (42:22)

Your own adventure totally.

B (42:23)

Almost. Part of me feels like even if you don't sell millions of books, which I think you will, I didn't quite expect how fulfilling it would feel for people to explain to me the effect that my book had on them. More so than any other content format I've ever done. YouTube videos, newsletters, short form content. Nothing compares to someone spending that much time reading something that you labored over for so long and the impact that it had on them. Whether it's financial, whether it's a mindset shift, whether. And so I do think, though, that there's a version of this if you're. If you're trying to measure all the different ways in which you could get satisfaction out of the process, this asymmetric risk of spending so much time and opportunity costs and all that on writing a book. I do think that it will still be worth it for you to pursue this, given that this is your. Like, you want this to be your identity.

A (43:21)

It does also feel like one of those projects where if the book disappoints in terms of sales, there's still so much benefit derived from the process that I feel like I kind of can't lose. There definitely will be some opportunity costs in that case, but compliments on my writing hit so much better than anything else. The newsletter I wrote this weekend about the hormozy launch. There was a line in there where I described, like, all this happened while I was on a fishing trip with my dad and I was sleeping on a pullout couch, which when I sat on it, literally flipped up from the bottom and, like, swallowed me into it. And I had a line that just, like, came to me where I said, here I sat, falling into a deep pit of envy and upholstery. And I had so many people reply and quote that line. And they're like, this was so good. And I was like, yes. Oh, my God. That tickled me in such a different way that just. Just the best. And here's the other thing that I don't think is talked about enough. AI Boy, we could talk about AI in publishing a lot here, but I think what we're seeing as effective AI for a lot of people is that they are outsourcing their thinking to AI. Nothing has been a more difficult process of thinking thinking than writing a book. And I think as uncertain as the future with AI is, what is becoming increasingly likely to me is that clear thinking will be a huge differentiator for people. And if you prioritize writing, you will prioritize becoming a stronger thinker. And I don't know if you've ever read into, like, Rene Girard and Mimetic Desire. People are always going to look to other people for their opinions, their perspective comparison, unfortunately. And I just think if you are taking writing seriously, you will be in a really good place.

B (45:26)

Let me share one anecdote. Maybe this is kind of a good bookend to this conversation of the impact of not using AI at all to write my book. It wasn't like a. Like a ethical stance or something. It was more just like I wanted to, like, sit there in the uncomfy nature of, like, not really knowing what I'm going to, like, where I'm going to go with this, or, like, what do I. What am I missing? And so I really was in that process for a long time. And I. I felt like that getting stuck, the writer's block thing, and me needing to sit and stew on, like, where I need to go from here was like a healthy part of the process of writing the book. But interestingly, now that I'm on the other side of it and I have written a book with 100% of my own kind of unique thoughts and struggle that went into that, now I've been able to train an AI project on my manuscript and my unique thoughts in this big body of small language. Model, let's say, of my own work. It's incredibly useful for me and my team to serve our customers and clients because if they have, my team has questions about how I might respond to a particular customer inquiry, whatever. It's like pretty good at forming a pretty good response of how I would respond in that scenario. And it's kind of like an interesting flip flop on. Rather than using AI to create new insights, I'm using it to inform a pretty good response in the business itself. And so like that, that kind of is the model of how I'm thinking about AI moving forward.

A (47:07)

Yeah, it'll be interesting. I'm really interested to see what publishing as an industry does with AI because from where I'm sitting, they have two choices. One choice is to say because it's so much easier to produce what looks like a book, we will thin out our advances and take more bets because publishing is basically venture capital. Or they could say, because AI makes it so easy to create what looks like a book, we are going to reclaim our role as gatekeepers and tastemakers and make traditionally published books a big deal again. I think it's a huge opportunity for publishing that I just worry they're going to miss.

B (47:55)

I was watching. So one of my students in my program is like a very prolific YouTube producer who has like 20 channels and all in different verticals and like really, really intelligent guy. And one of his channels is all about like nature documentaries and in all of their branding, on the description boxes of their YouTube videos and the channel about page and all that, it's like no AI was used in the making of these documentaries. And no joke, half of the comments are all about no AI used. Instant subscribe.

A (48:30)

Yeah.

B (48:30)

So I do think there's going to be like a large contingent of the human population that rebels against the use of AI and creativity.

A (48:39)

Yeah, I agree. Will it be larger than the rest? I don't know, but I think there's a space for it. Yeah. In any case, I think the timing is good now for me to be exploring this because I think a window might be closing in the way that publishing has historically worked. If they're like, actually we're just going to take more flyers on more authors that have audiences and we're going to give smaller advances, but we're just going to publish more books. I think that's a possible scenario. So I'm trying to preempt that window a little bit. The timing, timing with the subject of the matter of the book. It all feels right to me. So I just had probably my last live call with my editor today because the proposal is basically done. We're going to turn it into my agent next week and I should have a lot more information the next time we talk.

B (49:24)

Dude. One last thought. If anyone is listening to this and thinking about whether or not they should write a book in their own business, the most surprising thing that I found about writing a book is that it shook loose a bunch of really surprising companies and individuals who never consumed any of my other content formats, my YouTube videos, my newsletters. These are people who are running very large companies, have very large sponsorship revenue streams and frankly have thrown money at me to help them.

A (49:58)

I think there's a huge digital to analog chasm that books are the bridge to. We think we have these huge audiences and we're reaching all these people and we're on the Internet. Anyone can read the Internet. But I do think there's still a significant portion of the population who our stuff might be relevant to, who just don't consume in the way that we create.

B (50:15)

Totally.

A (50:16)

It's true of any platform.

B (50:18)

Yeah, that was the most surprising thing. And I've actually like signed six figure consulting arrangements just from the book. So let's just go like this. So if you're someone in a specific niche or in B2B or something like this, my most sincere advice is write a book. It's a great investment of your time.

A (50:42)

If you enjoyed this episode and you're listening on Spotify, please leave a comment on this episode and let me know if you're listening on Apple. Please leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. We're getting closer to the magical 500. I see every one of these reviews. It means a lot to me, so please consider doing so if you haven't already. You can find more about justin@creatorwizard.com or his book at sponsor magnet.com links to all of his social media accounts. His websites are in the show notes. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you next week.