Creator Science #274: Podcast Growth Strategies (Paid and Organic) with Jeff Umbro of The Podglomerate

Date: September 16, 2025
Host: Jay Clouse
Guest: Jeff Umbro, Founder & CEO of The Podglomerate

Episode Overview

Jay Clouse sits down with podcast industry veteran Jeff Umbro to unpack actionable strategies for growing a podcast audience—both organically and through paid means. Drawing on Jeff's experience helping both indie creators and massive brands (Netflix, NPR, Harvard, etc.), they discuss audience growth journeys, the power of editorial and algorithmic strategies, email marketing, leveraging multiple platforms, and effective (and ineffective) uses of ad spend. The episode is rich with tactical advice, candid disagreement, and real-world data, making it invaluable for creators serious about audience growth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Success and Setting KPIs (04:51–07:40)

• Goal Setting: Jeff emphasizes starting every podcast growth plan with a clear understanding of the creator’s objectives: monetization, lead generation, brand awareness, or content marketing.

  “The first question that I ask everybody...is like, what are your goals? What are you hoping to achieve here? It’s going to be a really different process if you’re trying to grow your show to monetize it versus...for lead generation...versus content marketing...” — Jeff [04:56]

• Audit & Plan: After clarifying goals, Jeff’s team audits the creator’s “owned properties” (social, email, website, other podcasts, partnerships, etc.) and reviews past outreach efforts.

• Custom Strategy: They develop a structured, multi-pronged plan based on the resources and ambitions of each show.

2. Understanding Downloads vs Real Consumption (07:40–10:45)

• Downloads Aren’t Listens: Jay and Jeff stress the difference between downloads and actual listens, noting that many podcast teams (especially companies) still prioritize download numbers for ROI, but independent creators should care more about real audience engagement.

  "Sometimes people don't even understand that there's a difference and that a download does not mean that somebody listened..." — Jay [08:14]

• Tooling: They recommend tools like Spotify for Creators, Apple Podcast Connect, and especially third parties like Bumper to get clear data on true audience consumption and retention.

3. Six Pillars of Organic Growth (10:45–21:10)

a. Publicity / Press (10:45–13:55)

• Press Outreach: Build a media pipeline and pitch outlets for features, reviews, and topical lists.

• Longevity Effects: Major legacy media features (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc.) drive not just bursts, but long-term listener discovery.

  “We had a show years ago...in just like a collection of five Podcasts from the New York Times and we’re still seeing traffic five years later that is coming from that article.” — Jeff [12:12]

• Legacy Media & AI: Being written up in legacy outlets also raises profile in AI-driven search (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude) which now sends 10–20% of discovery traffic for some shows.

b. Owned Marketing (13:55–21:10)

• Leverage Existing Platforms: Use newsletters, social media, websites, and even other podcasts for cross-promotion—but be intentional about calls to action and track conversion with attribution tools.

  "You can see how many people heard an ad for your show on another podcast, then went back to your podcast." — Jeff [15:36]

• Cross-Platform Realities: Jay shares how YouTube doesn’t reliably drive audio podcast growth; often, these are completely different audience behaviors.

  “Our initial assumption was YouTube will drive audio growth, which has not been true at all.” — Jay [16:36]

• Experimentation & Context: Both agree each platform requires custom strategy and resource balancing; what works for one creator won’t universally apply.

4. Editorial Planning & "Tentpole" Episodes (24:08–28:13)

• The Tentpole Strategy: Invest in major, standout episodes (“tentpoles”) a few times each year to maximize word-of-mouth and spark viral growth.

  “You don’t have to take a swing on everything that you do, but you should take a few in order to try and intentionally grow the audience in that way.” — Jeff [24:00, echoing opening quote]

• Case Studies: Jay points to the “Taylor Swift interview” moment as the kind of event that even non-core listeners feel pressured to check out, increasing conversion into regular listeners.

5. Platform-Specific Strategies & Editorial Pitching (28:13–35:37)

• Pitching Apple, Spotify, YouTube:

  • Apple is highly editorial—there are forms for “carousel” and “moment” episodes, which are handpicked for promotion.
  • Spotify is a blend, using both curation and heavy algorithmic recommendations.
  • YouTube is overwhelmingly algorithm-driven.

• Metadata Tuning: For algorithmic discovery, title, author tags, artwork, and episode descriptions can be optimized to increase search and recommendation impressions.

  "These are areas in which there are really two main ways to pitch your show... editorial and algorithmic curation." — Jeff [30:12]

• Tactics from the Trenches: Stories about chart manipulation hacks (e.g., “unsubscribe/resubscribe” drives on Apple, the 30-second download trick) highlight both the opportunity and the gray areas.

6. Video Podcasting & Platform Trends (36:17–42:51)

• Spotify Prioritization: Video episodes are currently given more visibility in Spotify’s algorithms, encouraged by direct financial incentive and platform competition with YouTube.

  "...in about 70% of the cases that I've seen, the Spotify viewership has increased over the course of a few months when people start uploading video as opposed to just audio." — Jeff [37:44]

• Tactical Examples: Jay’s own data showed Spotify video episodes receiving ~3x more plays than audio-only.

  “We had a video with Caleb Ralston. It got almost three times as many plays as our typical episodes. And three quarters of that was video consumption.” — Jay [38:22]

• Clips as Funnel: Uploading clips has low reach but high conversion among those who see them (results vary but can exceed 50% conversion).

  "Even if you're only winning 50 people, it's still very meaningful in a lot of ways." — Jeff [41:19]

7. Paid Promotion: Best Practices and New Tools (43:20–58:07)

a. Types of Paid Channels

• Podcast App Banners: (Overcast, Pocket Casts, Castbox, Podcast Addict)

  • Lower entry price, targeted directly at podcast listeners.

• Podcast-to-Podcast Ads:

  • "Old adage" holds true: it’s easier to convert someone who’s already a podcast listener.
  • Pre-roll, mid-roll, post-roll, and especially feed drops (publishing an entire episode on another show’s feed) yield the best conversion rates (up to 10%).

• Email Newsletters:

  • Results are mixed and highly dependent on alignment between show and newsletter audience.

  "We have seen some really amazing impact...some of them have done pretty poorly... some of them have done very well and have had nearly a 1% conversion rate for actual listeners of the show, not just clicks." — Jeff [44:37]

b. Emerging Tools

• Attribution: Use tools like Magellan AI, Swap FM, podscribe, podtrack for tracking efficacy down to the conversion.
• Introcast & PodRoll:
  • Allow for dynamically-inserted feed drops at scale (Introcast even lets you buy intros by show impression count, not just time).

c. Budget-Conscious Advice

• For limited budgets, podcast app banners (Overcast, Podcast Addict) or targeted audio ads via platforms like AdvertiseCast are most accessible and directly measurable.

d. Cross Promotions

• Manual or network-driven cross-promos (even if imperfectly aligned) can create visible humps in follower and download growth.

  “There is a period of time when my month over month new followers has a clear hump of being better. And that was when I was on the network...cross promos work.” — Jay [56:18]

8. Closing Wisdom & Mindset (58:27–end)

• Pick Your Metrics, Track Progress: Always return to your core goals. Consistently measure if your activities (organic or paid) are pushing you in the right direction.

  “Every day or every week or every month, just go back to your guiding light and just say, did I do something today that pushes me a little bit closer towards what I'm hoping to get out of this?” — Jeff [60:10]

• Experiment Relentlessly: There’s no single right route; what matters is iteration, measurement, and a focus on actual audience.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You don’t have to take a swing on everything... but you should take a few in order to try and intentionally grow the audience in that way.” — Jeff Umbro [24:00, 01:00]
• “I'd rather have 10 real listeners than 10,000 fake ones.” — Jeff Umbro [09:12]
• “Video episodes are getting surfaced within surfaces of the Spotify app... It seems to me that video episodes are getting surfaced within surfaces of the Spotify app.” — Jay Clouse [38:20]
• “If you release every episode we did in video, I probably would... But we have not cracked that nut (YouTube driving audio).” — Jay Clouse [16:13]
• “Cross promos work.” — Jay Clouse [57:04]
• “If you have found something that is effective for what you are looking for, you should keep doing it. Whether that's cross promos or paid buys or having big guest opportunities or doing PR outreach. There's not really a wrong way to go about this. There's just more and less effective ways to do it.” — Jeff Umbro [57:35]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:51 – How Jeff approaches new podcast growth clients
• 07:40 – Downloads vs. actual listeners; consumption metrics
• 10:45 – Breakdown of the Podglomerate’s six-pillar approach
• 13:55 – Importance of owned channels and cross-platform strategies
• 16:36 – YouTube vs. audio podcast growth: hard lessons
• 24:08 – Tentpole episode strategy
• 28:13 – Editorial and algorithmic pitching to podcast apps
• 36:17 – Why video matters on Spotify now
• 42:51 – Experimenting with video clips, measuring conversion
• 43:20 – Paid promotion (app banners, cross-podcast ads, newsletters)
• 54:32 – SaaS tools for scalable, measurable paid feed drops
• 58:27 – What to do with a limited paid growth budget
• 60:10 – Final advice: track, iterate, and enjoy the journey

Resources & Further Learning

• thepodglomerate.com — Jeff’s agency and newsletter
• Podcast perspectives (Jeff's podcast)
• Tools mentioned: Bumper, Magellan AI, Swap FM, Podscribe, Podtrack, AdvertiseCast, Overcast FM ads, Podcast Addict ads, Introcast, Pod Roll

Overall Takeaway

Podcast growth is a deliberate, multifaceted challenge:
Define your own metrics of success, experiment with audience-facing and platform-facing tactics, measure everything you can (focusing on real listener engagement), and don’t be afraid to allocate budget—wisely and iteratively. What matters most is not the strategy, but your commitment to constant observation, experimentation, and improvement.