#276: From self-publishing to traditional and becoming a NYT best-seller | Pat Flynn (Part 2)

Summary

Creator Science Podcast #276: From Self-Publishing to Traditional and Becoming a NYT Best-seller | Pat Flynn (Part 2)

Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Jay Clouse
Guest: Pat Flynn

---

Episode Overview

This episode is the second part of Jay Clouse’s deep dive conversation with Pat Flynn—founder of Smart Passive Income, serial author, and creator across multiple platforms. The discussion centers on Pat’s transition from self-publishing to traditional publishing with his latest book, "Lean: How to Achieve More by Learning Less," his experience in becoming a New York Times bestseller, and how he intentionally approaches the business and marketing of content in a rapidly changing creator landscape.

Key themes include the contrasts between self-publishing and traditional publishing, the realities behind the New York Times list, leveraging multiple audiences, and evidence-backed strategies to stand out as a creator.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Becoming a NYT Best-seller: Lived Experience vs. Expectations

• [02:05] Pat explains that while achieving New York Times bestseller status was a significant personal milestone, his day-to-day life didn't drastically change.
  • “My phone hasn’t been blowing up, I haven’t been receiving a ton of emails… the book hasn’t hit Atomic Habits levels yet or anything like that… nothing has changed.” — Pat Flynn ([02:28])
  • He notes the pride from family and peers in Boise but stays grounded about what the list means for long-term success.

2. The Move from Self-Publishing to Traditional Publishing

• [03:28] Most creators move away from traditional publishing, but Pat chose to experiment with it after multiple successful self-published books.

  • Why go traditional?
    • He wanted first-hand experience to offer genuine advice to others.
    • Aimed to build authority in the broader self-development/learning space outside of entrepreneurship.
  • Trade-offs encountered:
    • Less control over decisions (e.g., cover design, marketing, timeline).
    • Publisher-imposed structure (eg. manuscript deadlines) provided valuable external accountability.
    • Gained distribution and credibility, but had to cede some creative oversight.

  “So many people had asked me, ‘Pat, which would you do if you were in my position? Would you self publish or traditionally publish?’ And I couldn't honestly answer that… I just wanted to see what it was like.” — Pat Flynn ([03:39])

3. Differences Between Self, Traditional, and Hybrid Publishing

• [05:26] Pat discusses the incremental pros and cons after his first traditional book launch.

  • Publisher provided logistical relief (editing, printing).
  • Marketing largely left to the author’s efforts, despite publisher’s resources.
  • Hybrid models increasingly attractive: more royalties, some distribution, more control.

  “It was largely my doing, my email list, my promotions, my short form videos leading up to the launch… They [the publisher] didn’t do much in the marketing side of things.” — Pat Flynn ([06:26])

4. How Publishing "Resources" Shift with Success

• [08:12] Only after hitting the NYT list did Pat see his publisher increase their involvement, primarily by making PR connections and leveraging their Rolodex.

  • No financial bonuses for hitting bestseller status, but increased access to elite media opportunities.
  • Publishing world remains opaque—a mix of genuine support and “wait to see what takes off” strategy.

  “Now that the book has gotten on the list, there is seemingly more resources being put into this… Let’s tap into our Rolodex, make some calls, maybe get you on some shows that you wouldn’t have been able to get on otherwise.” — Pat Flynn ([08:37])

5. Securing a Traditional Deal as a Platform-Driven Creator

• [10:43] Despite Pat’s visibility in the creator economy, many in publishing were unaware of his credentials. His agent and proposal had to "sell" his platform and prior success.
  • Platform metrics, social proof, past book sales are crucial in proposals.
  • “Selling yourself” is still required, even with a large audience.

6. Tensions with Publisher over Launch Tactics

• [12:21] Disagreements arose over pre-order strategy and audiobook release timing.

  • Publishers wanted extended pre-order periods for forecasting, while Pat feared audience fatigue.
  • Preferred staggered audiobook release (to concentrate attention), publisher insisted on simultaneous release.

  “There were certain things I just wish we could do differently… I know we're going to sell books, trust me. And they're like, ‘Well, we want to see it before we place these orders.’” — Pat Flynn ([12:41])

7. Creative Cross-pollination Between Pokémon and Entrepreneurial Audiences

• [15:01] Pat leveraged his Pokémon channel’s superfans with a unique pre-order campaign:

  • Bought 1,000 Pokémon card packs; offered one to each purchaser from the Pokémon community.
  • Sold 1,000 books through this cross-niche strategy.

  “I set up a bonus such that if a person from the Pokémon side of things pre-ordered the book and sent in their receipt as proof, I would send them a bonus pack of Pokémon cards... all a thousand were claimed.” — Pat Flynn ([16:41])

8. Word-of-Mouth and Timeliness in Book Success

• [17:25] Achieving "K factor" above one (each reader recommends to at least one new person) is key for book longevity.
  • The book's timeliness, especially with the current flood of AI-driven learning and information overload, contributed to reader resonance.

9. Building and Maintaining a Multifaceted Personal Brand

• [20:46] Pat’s identity now straddles entrepreneurship, Pokémon entertainment, and mainstream self-development (lean learning).

  • Unexpected overlap: entrepreneurial audience inspired to pursue hobbies; Pokémon audience drawn into business.
  • Maintains fulfillment and creative freshness by allowing multiple disciplines to coexist.

  “If I become known for lean learning for some people, that's great… If you want to learn about Pokémon, cool… All these things do overlap because learning is sort of at the basis of all of it.” — Pat Flynn ([21:46])

10. Countering the “One Thing” Advice

• [24:42] Challenges the belief that creators must focus on only one interest to succeed.

  • Multiple creative outlets stave off burnout and cross-pollinate ideas across different niches.

  “When we just stick to the one thing, it more quickly leads to burnout. It more quickly leads to not being the best self..." — Pat Flynn ([24:42])

11. Book Marketing Strategy: Podcast Guesting & Short-form Video

• [26:52] Podcast tours were primary launch tool due to proven track record in selling books (vs. traditional media).

  • Pat’s 15 years of relationships (“dig your well before you’re thirsty”) made it easier to appear on 50+ podcasts around launch.

  “I think Sean Stevenson said… podcast guesting was by far the best thing that worked for him. So… that was my primary strategy for content.” — Pat Flynn ([27:03])

• Short-form video campaign:

  • 21-day TikTok, Reels, and Shorts diary leading to launch.
  • Leveraged authenticity, vulnerability (imposter syndrome, behind-the-scenes).
  • Hit 4M+ views across all platforms; engaged a wide range of his audience.
  • Relied heavily on practice from the Pokémon channel.

  "Leading up to the launch, unfortunately I wasn’t able to finish daily until the launch date because I had gotten sick... But still, it did its job... I think it was seen over 4 million times across all platforms." — Pat Flynn ([31:45])

12. How to Ask for Support and Maintain Relationships

• [33:51] Explains philosophy and tactics around requesting favors:

  • For close contacts, just ask—many had already reciprocated previously.
  • For looser connections, lead with curiosity and catch up first; favor often surfaces naturally in conversation.
  • Most key: Nurture relationships long term, not just when you need something.

  “If I can first be so curious about everything that they have going on, they will automatically, without even trying, then ask, ‘Well, what do you have going on? What can I help you with?’” — Pat Flynn ([34:36])

13. Evolving Views on Short-form Content and Platform Choice

• [39:30] Pat previously believed only long-form could build real audience relationships.

  • Now, he recognizes the compounding power of daily short-form (inspired by his Pokémon shorts’ billions of views).
  • Building relationships through bite-sized daily interactions is possible; cadence matters as much as format.

  “Short form is like Halloween candy… unless you have the biggest Snicker bars on the block, like the king size, you’re not going to be talked about. … But I found… people are now making me a part of their daily lives in that short little 60 second moment…” — Pat Flynn ([40:01])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Many people think it was completely the wrong decision to go down this traditional route because I already had the audience and I was able to do most of the marketing myself. But again, I think it was worth the experiment and the experience.” — Pat Flynn ([08:58])
• “The hard ask is when you’re like, ‘Hey, Jim, I haven’t talked to you in eight years, but I have this book coming out. Can you promote it for me?’ Like, that’s never gonna work.” — Pat Flynn ([34:08])
• “I think it’s a long game, dude. That’s where I think the difference is between those who succeed and those who fail: what timeframe are you giving yourself to succeed and fail?” — Pat Flynn ([36:38])
• “I don’t know if that goes against what a lot of advice we hear from people like Alex Hormozi, which is like, ‘You need to focus on one thing.’ It’s like, I’m definitely not doing that, but I can’t because… when I do, I don’t feel fulfilled.” — Pat Flynn ([22:59])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:05] — Pat on becoming a NYT bestseller
• [03:28] — Why Pat went traditional for his latest book
• [05:26] — Pros and cons of traditional vs. self-publishing
• [08:12] — What “more resources” from a publisher really means
• [10:43] — Selling yourself as an author with an existing platform
• [12:21] — Pushback on launch tactics with the publisher
• [15:01] — Using Pokémon community for book marketing
• [17:25] — Word-of-mouth and book longevity
• [20:46] — The three “legs” of Pat’s personal brand
• [24:42] — Rejecting the “one thing” creator philosophy
• [26:52] — Book marketing with podcast tours and short-form video
• [33:51] — How to ask for and receive support from your network
• [39:30] — Realizations about daily short-form content

---

Conclusion: Actionable Takeaways & Tone

Pat Flynn’s open, reflective, and experimental approach is evident throughout—he’s willing to try new things, learn from the process, and share what works (and what doesn’t) with candor and humor. Listeners are reminded that the creator journey is iterative and personal, and that sophisticated marketing can be both values-driven and playful.

Whether you’re considering how to launch your own book, nurture a multi-interest creator ecosystem, or just find your edge in a noisy landscape, this episode is packed with actionable wisdom and heartfelt encouragement.

"We are a curious people, we are Renaissance people, we are multidisciplinary, and we have to scratch all those itches or else those itches just become so painful that we just can't live with ourselves." — Pat Flynn ([25:07])

Transcript

[A]

There is a world where we need to have multiple disciplines in order to be our best selves. Because we are a curious people. We have to scratch all those itches, or else those itches just become so painful that we just can't live with ourselves.

[B]

Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator Science. This is part two from my recent conversation with Pat Flynn. If you don't know Pat, he's an online business legend, and this is the third time he's been on the show. Pat is the founder of Smart Passive Income, where I had the pleasure of working with him for about 18 months. And I feel compelled to tell you Pat is exactly as he portrays himself online. He's a genuinely great guy, one of the good ones. So in this episode, we dig into his experience publishing his latest book book Lean how to Achieve More by Learning Less. Lean Learning was a New York Times best seller. And it's actually funny. I was in Boise at Craft and Commerce when I saw Pat on the phone with, I believe, his agent, getting the news about this and recording it, always creating content. That is what makes Pat special. Now, what's also interesting about this is this isn't Pat's first book, but it is his first traditionally published book. And I was super curious to hear about that experience because I often see people go in the opposite direction I leaving traditional publishing to do things their own way. As you'll hear, it's kind of a mixed experience. So it's a really interesting perspective here. If you enjoy this episode, tag me Clouse and Patflinn on social media and let us know that you're listening. And if you haven't already listened to part one of this conversation, I've linked to that in the show notes as well. That's enough from me. Let's hear from Pat.

[C]

Pat, back on the show for a third. Thank you for taking the time on the back end of what was a very exciting week for you last week.

[A]

Yeah, very exciting. Book launch the week prior, hearing some good news after that in Boise for an event called Craft and Commerce, where you and I got to connect, which was great, as well as a keynote that I had to prepare for that got a really good reception. And then leading into Father's Day, which was great and getting home in time for that. So a lot of things happening, but I'm excited to chat about a lot of it with you today.

[C]

Does life feel different as a New York Times bestseller?

[A]

No, not at all. I haven't gotten, like, my phone hasn't been blowing up. I Mean, it's not number one, but I mean it's a, it's a big feat to get on the list. I mean, this was my Mount Everest for so long. And now that I'm here, I am very proud of myself. You know, this was a long time coming for me as a personal goal. But you know, the phone hasn't been blowing up, I haven't been receiving a ton of emails. Like the book hasn't like hit atomic habits levels yet or anything like that. And you know, I know it's going to take a lot more work to make that happen, but no, life, life is no different. The family was very proud of me and so were a number of colleagues that found out the news with me in Boise. But I mean, nothing has changed.

[C]

Well, this isn't your first book you've written. Let Go, Will it Fly? Super fans, all these books have been really successful in their own right and have kind of a cult like following some of them. But this is your first traditionally published book. And so I'm super curious. What we don't often see is people going in that direction where they start more self published, hybrid and then go to traditional. So I'd love to hear your thought process and how you decided to go through the traditional book publishing industry.

[A]

Yeah, this is a common question because like you said, most people go from traditional and then absolutely hate the experience and then come over to do self publish. And I started self publish, loved the experience. Why would I ever go traditional and give up more of my revenue or royalties to publisher, let alone go through the process of working with a completely different team that I've never worked with before to potentially give up some control, which actually did have to happen. So what was even the reason for doing this? Well, the reason was twofold, Jay. The reason, number one, was I just wanted to see what it was like. So many people had asked me, pat, which would you do if you were in my position? Would you self publish or traditional publish? And I couldn't honestly answer that question because I had literally no experience doing it before. So that was number one. I love to just really test things out myself first before sharing information about it. And then number two, because this book was sort of one rung outside of the world of entrepreneurship. My other books were specifically for people who had businesses and in general online businesses or wanted to start online businesses. This is a self help self development book and it's about learning, it's about education and I don't have any or didn't have much of an authority in that space. And my hypothesis was I would able to fast forward that authority or at least build a little bit more credibility in the world of self help and self development by working with a publisher. Because that's kind of the only reason why people use publishers now that are more traditional is because it comes with that level of authority. I will say it was beneficial compared to my self publishing experience to not have to worry about the editing or the printing or any of the stuff that goes along that you kind of have to figure out on your own. That was nice, but there was a lot of tension across everything from the book cover to the timing to the marketing of it. I will say however, that having a publisher say, hey, your manuscript is due on this date, turn it in or else, that actually was really helpful for me getting the book done in a timely manner versus if I did have it on my own. I don't know if I would have gotten it done in as much time or at least have written it so well because of that pressure behind it.

[C]

And of course we're talking about lean learning how to achieve more by learning less. I love the subtitle, by the way. I think this is an incredible subtitle. I have never seen a book jacket exactly this color either, which is also something that I just clock when I see people making book decisions. So now that you've gone through this process, someone comes to you and says, traditional publishing, self publishing hybrid, how have your thoughts evolved now gone through and I know it's fresh. You don't have the full cycle of traditional publishing just yet. Maybe another way to attack this question is some of the core differences you saw in this process that maybe you weren't anticipating.

[A]

Gosh, I mean, would I do it again? I'm not even sure yet. It's not a. Hell yes. I will say there's still more to come. And now that the book has gotten on the list, there is or seemingly more resources being put into this and it's like, okay, well I worked really hard to get this to this point. I would say they didn't do much in the marketing side of things. It was largely my doing, my email list, my promotions, my short form videos leading up to the launch, all those things. But who knows, I might get some opportunities that I would have never gotten if I hadn't worked with them. But again, we'll see. I love the publisher, by the way. I mean, Simon Schuster is fantastic. My, my editor Stephanie is amazing. I love them. There were just a lot of things that I wish Moved a little faster. There were some miscommunications along the way, which is partly on my side as well. But at the same time, I mean, they chose the book cover, they chose the color for it and said it would pop. And like you said, you even called it out, which is amazing. I made the decision on the subtitle. They wanted a different subtitle that was more How High Achievers Achieve More with Less Information or something kind of more generic like that. And I was like, no, I want it to be something that turns people's heads when they read it and make them want to open it up or something that just, like, really hits home. So I'm still 50. 50, Jay. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to everybody, but I think it depends on every person's situation. And I know there's other options that I haven't even explored yet, like more of a hybrid approach, which is becoming very popular, where you can keep more of your royalties but have a little bit more, say. Distribution is sort of mixed. I didn't have to purchase, you know, thousands of copies on my own and store them somewhere. This time I did. The previous times I had to do that. So that was nice. But, man, I feel like my answer changes every day for whether or not I would recommend it or not. I'm not quite ready to even think about a next book personally, so I don't know if I would go down that route again or not.

[C]

Well, you just said something interesting, which is, once I hit the list, it feels like there's more resources going towards it. I think when people hear more resources, they think more money, But I don't even know if you would have clear visibility into that. So I'm curious, when you hear more resources or when you say more resources, what does that mean to you? What are you seeing that feels like there's more effort here on behalf of the publisher?

[A]

Yeah, number one, just more tension. It's not as throw a spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks kind of situation for publishers, it seems, but it kind of is. I mean, I'm not their only client. Right. They have several, dozens, many, maybe even hundreds. I don't even know exactly. And of course, when they see something taking off, there's some momentum there. They want to keep that going. But it makes me wonder, like, if this didn't go anywhere, would I. Just. Would I. Would it be, like, dead and they would move on? Maybe. I'm. I'm not exactly sure. So I'm grateful that we're here. And when it comes to more resources. I know they're putting more, perhaps more team money and time into it, but I'm. I'm not receiving any more money. Like I don't get a bonus or anything. I mean, long term, maybe with the effort behind it, I will see, you know, the advance will have been met and then I will have gotten royalties after that. But right now it's more just, okay, let's tap into our Rolodex, I think is the biggest thing that's happening right now. Let's make some calls. Let's maybe get you on some shows that you wouldn't have been able to get on otherwise. And again, I don't know what's gonna happen, but it would be cool to be on Diary of the CEO. And I don't even think that was even a part of the conversation up front because I hadn't, quote, unquote, proven myself. That being said, you know, if I look back at my past and all the successful things I've done, I probably could have made a pitch for that show on my own. I don't know. It's kind of just happening on the fly right now and it's really interesting. Many people think it was completely the wrong decision to go down this traditional route because I already had the audience and I was able to do most of the marketing myself. But again, I think it was worth the experiment and the experience. I don't even know if traditionally or if, excuse me, self published books could even get on the New York Times list. I know that it was possible with the Wall Street Journal list, but that's not even a thing anymore. There is no Wall Street Journal list anymore. The USA Today is the other one. And that has a little bit more prestige now since the Wall Street Journal is no longer in existence and we hit number 13 on USA Today. But again, it's so weird. It's like, okay, well, there were a number of books that I'm sure sold more books than me, but they're not on the New York Times list. I don't know exactly even how this all works. There's so much, like hidden stuff involved with this. And, you know, again, I'm not complaining. I feel very blessed. Yeah, we'll take it week by week.

[C]

I guess in the creator world, Pat Flynn is a thing. Your history goes way back for online business and entrepreneurship. I feel like in our circles, when your name comes up, you're on a Mount Rushmore of creators, right? So when you were going into the traditional publishing world and these conversations did they have that same sense for who Pat is? Did they know they had like a really well known person with incredible online marketing prowess on their hands?

[A]

My agent knew and my agent had to do a lot along with me to sell who Pat Flynn was to these people who had no idea who I was. I mean, that's really what it is. So the proposal has a lot to do with that. On the proposal, it's not just like, here's the first chapter, like, do you like the writing? It's here are all the numbers, here's proof on how the previous books did. Here are the social numbers for all the connections. Here are some of the other relationships that this person has. So no, I had to sell myself to these publishers and thankfully the proposal was really good. The first chapter really sold the book. The first story in the book really kind of drives home the point and did a good job for me. But no, they didn't, they didn't know who I was. And I don't even know if they still do. I mean, I would hope so. But you're right, I think in our circles it's easy to know, especially with, you know, 15 to 20 years of history behind it, but for the publishing world, I mean, many of them had no idea who I was. So you have to do the work to sell yourself. Thankfully, I had some numbers and stuff that was very attractive to them. And, you know, who knows, maybe with the success of this book and if it continues to build momentum, it'll take its own name in the world of publishing. That could take it to new levels.

[C]

Yeah, it's just so interesting because you hear these kind of conflicting reports of publishers. More and more are looking to find authors with an existing platform because in a way that de risks their investment. Right, right. But at the same time, it feels.

[B]

Like they're still pretty out of touch.

[C]

With who those people are or how to properly value what that platform is. So what do you do with that? Do you walk in feeling like, yeah, I've got this, let me show you what I can do. Or does it feel uncomfortable, like you have to prove yourself again after decades of proving yourself?

[A]

It did feel like that even as the book was about to launch. I mean, gosh, there were certain things that I just was like, I wish we could do it differently. And I didn't really have a say. For example, they wanted pre order numbers to be pushed because that helps them determine then how many to order to then distribute to the different retailers and such so that they make sure they have enough but it's like, well, if I'm pushing my book a month early and then I have to launch again and like, just continue that message for an entire month, I'm going to burn out my list. Like, why don't we just contain all of it to the first week and let's just like, go all out in the first week. And they're like, no, we need to know how many. So, like, there was that. And I'm like, well, I know we're going to sell books, trust me. And they're like, well, we want to see it before we place these orders. And I'm like, okay, fine. Another thing that was kind of bothersome to me was the audiobook. The audiobook in my previous books I launched a month after the physical book because again, I want all eyes on the hardcover book so that we can increase those numbers as much as possible. And having a podcast audience especially, I knew that a majority of my audience would probably want to go and listen to me because that's how they consume content for me. But if we have the hardcover book only, then they can come and support that. And I always include a few more bonuses and I go off script in the audiobook and it would still do well in the audiobook a month later. And they were like, no, we want them all at the same time. And I really tried hard to make that happen. And I said, this doesn't make sense. If we're trying to, like, hit a list and go big with it, let's have it in like two waves. Like, trust me, I've proven this. And they weren't having that, which was unfortunate. But again, there were other things that they did bend on, like the subtitle and some of the timing things with other aspects of the book. But again, it was definitely a struggle. And hopefully by now I've proven myself and hopefully I can have and even command a few more directions in the future with how we want this thing to go out. So again, we'll see. Again, I feel like I'm complaining, even though we did really well. But what if it could have been number three, number two, maybe even number one? I don't know. Although I don't know how I'd compete with Mel Robbins right now. She seems to be on this, like, crazy kick with, like, I see her everywhere and, like, target. Her green book is just in my face everywhere we go. Which is super inspiring. I mean, there's no reason why my book can't do the same.

[C]

Yeah, the pre order thing with books has always Been so interesting to me because it's such an odd user experience. It's hard enough to get somebody excited about a book in general and then to be like, I'm gonna get you excited about a book so that you can wait a month for it. I pre ordered this the day before it launched and then I got it the next day.

[B]

And that was a magical experience. But I know it seems like the.

[C]

Incentives in the space are load up pre orders for like a month beforehand.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that just seems like an odd user experience.

[A]

The pre orders do stack for like lists like the New York Times and USA Today. I mean all the pre orders get reported like on launch week. But Amazon doesn't work that way. So I didn't get bestseller status on Amazon because it was all like spread out across like a month and a half. Right. I got, I'm still top new release in entrepreneurship, but I can't call myself an Amazon bestseller even though I'm a New York Times and USA Today bestseller. Which like is kind of, it's kind of interesting again because that whole experience is spread out. And then what do I have to do to convince a person to pre order the book? Well, I have to include these other bonuses and these other bonuses are, generally speaking, more information which I don't want to give my audience. That's actually counter to the premise of the book, which is there's just too much information out there. Let's learn what we need just for what we want right now. Just in time. Learning versus just in case learning, which is, which is what the book is about. But the Pokemon channel and the fans that I have there were very much a part of the reason why this book is also done very well and picked up like it did. Because a lot of those people who have been following my Pokemon channel who didn't even know I had like this thing outside of it, which is what I'm normally known for this business stuff. When I told them that I was coming out with a book, they were all surprised. They're like, wait, Pokemon's not your full time thing? And I was like, no, definitely, definitely not. And they're like, how can we get behind it? How can we support you? And so one thing I did, Jay, was I set up a bonus structure for anybody who pre ordered the book for the Pokemon side of things. So I bought like a thousand packs of Pokemon cards from somebody I knew who sold Pokemon packs and I sent them to a third party logistics company and I set up a bonus such that if a person from The Pokemon side of things pre ordered the book and sent in their receipt as proof. I would send them a bonus pack of Pokemon cards on week one.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

And I did that. And like all a thousand were claimed. So I was able to sell a thousand books to people who were fans, like Super Fans, which was the name of my previous book in the Pokemon side. And that was really, really helpful. And they were all wanting to get behind it. And I was able to kind of send a message out to them separately when I got the New York Times bestseller list. And even though they follow me for Pokemon content, they were super stoked because they don't just follow for Pokemon, they follow for Pat Flynn. That was really cool in a fun way. And I've shared that strategy with like one other person and they were like, can you tell me more about that? So I thought your audience might be interested in that because there are ways to utilize other groups and other communities and support them in a bonus structure that works for them. And I don't know, a pack of Pokemon's like four bucks. So four bucks plus a couple dollars to ship. I thought it was worth it and I think it helped.

[C]

That's awesome. I mean, I've heard from a lot of folks, a lot of authors who have said that basically in the beginning, you just need to get your book in the hands of people who will actually read the book. Because at some point it's all word of mouth. Have you even heard this described as like, if your K factor for the book is above one, which is like a super nerdy data analytics version selling books, but like, if your K factor is above one, you just need to get the book in the hands of people who read the book and then it'll just spread by itself.

[A]

Oh yeah. Which means you gotta write something worth talking about. I mean, ultimately it comes down to what it is that you write and how share worthy it is. And thankfully, at least so far, the response to the book has been pretty amazing. I mean, the number of people who said this is like, the timing could not be more perfect. I mean, I started this process four years ago. The proposal was made in 2021. So I happened to hit the right time when AI started to continue to, to build momentum. And we're all in this AI world now. This is definitely a response to learning in this world that we live in now. And so it has legs, it has that opportunity to go wide. And I think, you know, I've just placed the best bet that I could whether or not it's going to happen? I don't know, but I gave it a chance. And we're still in the early days to find out what happens.

[B]

After a quick break, I ask Pat about how he ties all the things.

[C]

Together that he does.

[B]

His entrepreneurial content, his Pokemon channel, and now his new book. So stick around. We'll be right back. My business has grown an average of 75% per year for the last five years. And the reason this is true is because I have just continued to put myself around creators who are a step ahead of me.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I can track all of this back to 2020, when I joined a Mastermind and one of the creators in that Mastermind was earning $40,000 per month. I was stuck at $10,000 per month at that time, and I just couldn't believe what this person was doing. But because I could see it, I knew I could be it. And by continuing to put myself in the room with people a step ahead of me, I've learned to ask different questions, make different decisions, and all of that has led to an increase in revenue. This is why I built the Lab. I wanted to give creators the experience that I had in that Mastermind group. I wanted to give you a place where you could be around other people who are doing things so that you can see it and you can be it as well. Members of the Lab receive access to our always on, always available community forum, access to all of my courses, including build a beloved membership podcast like YouTuber, the Newsletter Masterclass, and more, dozens of workshops, most of which were never made publicly available for sale. Creator hq, which is my operating system for creators, a trusted partners directory. These are professionals that our community has hired and vetted for things like ads, design, legal, finance, et cetera. Access to our offline events, our Mastermind matching process that happens twice a year, and weekly live sessions. We have members who have now renewed their membership four years in a row. I wouldn't push so hard if I didn't believe in this membership. Learn more and join us at creatorscience.com lab. That's creatorscience.com lab or follow the link in the show notes. And now back to my conversation with Pat Flynn.

[C]

So before we dive into the marketing plan and the Pokemon stuff, existential question. You mentioned that this is like a layer out from your typical audience. So you have the entrepreneurish audience. You've grown this massive Pokemon audience on the side as well, which I would guess is probably larger. The entrepreneurship audience at this point, clearly.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

And so if this book is outside of the typical Pat Flynn. It doesn't strike me as a Pokemon book. There's a world where this does go wide, and now you are the lean, learning guy. So how do you think about the identity of Pat Flynn and how you want to be regarded in the public consciousness if you think about this, given these, like, three legs to the stool that you've developed?

[A]

Yeah, this is a great question. And when I had started building the Pokemon audience, I had no inclination that there would be any overlap. Right. That's a Pokemon audience, and this is completely separate. However, there is a lot of crossover that I was not expecting. There are people who follow the entrepreneurial stuff who now are curious about how I'm maintaining a new brand and business and are curious about that, but they're also interested in now finding a hobby of their own that they could find passion in, because the Pokemon thing has brought me back to, like, being a kid again and bringing new energy to all the things that I'm doing and vice versa. A lot of people find me on the Pokemon channel, and they're like, how are you able to afford all these cards? Like, tell me more. And they end up joining our community at spi, which is amazing. And they're learning how to build a better life and build a business for their own as well. The kind of coolest crossover, though, and this happened this past week, actually. There were a lot of entrepreneurial fans who were there for SPI who said that their kids are watching my Pokemon channel, and they're like, so I got you in my ear for my podcast, and my son's watching me on the iPad, and it's like, there's too much Pat Flynn in my life, like. Like. And then here comes this new book, which is, like, going to be a third leg. So I think really my goal is to, in whatever I have interest and curiosities in, I just want to share that and bring others along the ride so that they can better think for themselves or learn for themselves or just enjoy life more. I mean, that's really what it is. I don't have this big idea of. Somebody thought I was creating an entirely new sort of, like, agency about learning, right? That I wanted to create a new sort of school system out of the backs of this book. And that's not anything I was thinking about. This is just a compendium of strategies and frameworks that I've learned over time to help me with things like spi, to help me with things like Pokemon. And anybody who wants to take that framework and those principles and, you know, implement it in their own way. That's what this book is for. And so if I become known for lean learning for some people, that's great. Let's talk about lean learning. And I can help you with that. If you want to learn about Pokemon, cool. I can help you with that as well. If I can help you with building a business, great. And all these things do kind of overlap with each other because learning is sort of at the basis of all of it. And so this has sort of become, I imagine that in any of my worlds I can say, you know what, if you're starting out, you need to learn how to learn. So here is the sort of foundational thing you need before you start a business, or here's a foundational thing you need to know before you start investing or collecting into Pokemon. You're going to need to learn how to navigate this crazy world of information overload out there. So here is my answer for that. So, you know, I don't know if that goes against what a lot of advice we hear from a lot of people like Alex Hermosi, which is like, you need to focus on one thing. It's like, I'm definitely not doing that, but I can't because. Because when I do, I don't feel fulfilled. When I do, I don't feel like I'm able to have the most fun or even help the most people.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think it does go counter to a lot of advice that we hear, and not even just advice that we hear, but really the structure of what a lot of these platforms we perform for incentivize, you know, and we'll, we'll talk about this a little bit. When you made the decision between a separate long form and short form YouTube channel, that was probably a platform specific decision. These platforms, which in a lot of cases for creators enable their livelihoods, really encourage this, like strict verticalization of our interests. I think a lot of people feel the pressure to, even if they have varied interests, they keep most of them behind the content, behind the wall of who I am publicly. Because it's not performative or rewarding a lot of times to share multiple interests within the same universe. So it does feel counter. And I'm wondering if that's something you just disagree with or whether that's just a cost you're willing to pay.

[A]

I feel like that, at least for me and a lot of other entrepreneurs, I know that when we just stick to the one thing, it more quickly leads to burnout. It more quickly leads to not being the best self that we can be to perform best on those platforms. So there may be a few people in this population who have to do the one thing in order to be their best selves. But I know there's another complete side of this population, myself included, who need to have multiple areas of interest to be the best version of themselves on each of these different platforms. At least that's what I have lived and what I believe. Because a lot of times I find that by going into the Pokemon world, it gives me a nice escape. It gives me a nice moment of breath from the sort of more business type of work that happens in the entrepreneurial space with spi. But I can come back into it with more excitement, and I'm learning from that as well. There's so many things I've picked up from the more entertainment based space in the Pokemon arena that I've brought back into the SPI space. Everything from how to tell a better story and retain people, to titles and thumbnails and all those kinds of things. But then there's things in the entrepreneurial space that I've brought over to the Pokemon space that they've never seen before. Which is why we have a live event that's happening in a couple weeks with 5,000 attendees. I've basically taken the conference structure with keynotes and breakout rooms and put it into the Pokemon space. But instead of teaching business and entrepreneurship, we are opening cards, or we're talking about investments, or we're talking about the history of Pokemon. It's the same structure, just different content. And it's been so fascinating. And so again, I think that there is, at least for some people, a world where we need to have multiple disciplines in order to be our best selves. Because we are a curious people, we are Renaissance people, we are multidisciplinary, and we have to scratch all those itches or else those. Those itches just become so painful that we just can't live with ourselves.

[C]

Let's talk a little bit about marketing for the book. Because even if you had hoped or assumed the publisher would do some of this, I'm sure you were ramping yourself up to do the lion's share. And I'd love to hear how you applied your experience, your content brain, to this challenge of marketing a book.

[A]

So I knew, based on people's experiences, having published books before, when I've spoken to them, especially people who have gone down the traditional route, I would literally just ask people, this is what I teach in the book. It's like, if you're not sure about something, go ask. People have done it before, and they've all said that traditional media, that is television and those kinds of things, they don't move books. They're great for building authority. They're good for the sort of shareable moments that kind of put you up on a pedestal. But in general, they don't move books. And my goal was to move books. The other thing that was said, I think Sean Stevenson said this with his book Sleep Smarter. He said that podcast guests being a guest on another person's podcast was by far the best thing that worked for him. So I was like, okay, well, I've done that before. And I have a lot of people who I know have podcasts who I could ask to be a guest on their show. And that was my primary strategy for content. It was to be a guest on other people's podcasts and start those conversations early. So even six months before the launch of the book, I already started seeding the idea that I would love to be a guest on a number of people's shows. And where this was easy for me is I have 14, 15 years of my own podcast where I've invited these same people on my show. I've helped promote their books in the past. I think it was Jordan Harbinger who had this quote that was like, you know, you want to dig your well before you're thirsty. You want to help others first, before you need something. And that's exactly what I've been doing for almost two decades now. And so it wasn't very hard for me mentally to ask for that favor. And it wasn't very hard for those people to also say yes and want to help. We live in this world where the law of reciprocity does take place. And I've tried to, you know, put in the work ahead of time so that by the time I needed something, I could easily ask for that in return. And this is. Even this very episode is like an example of that. And thank you, Jay, again, for having me on.

[C]

Easy.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You were already in our pipeline. I was like, wait, you're asking me? Done?

[A]

Thanks, man. So I think I did 52. I think this is my 53rd podcast interview about the book. And to coordinate them all to kind of happen at the same time or at least get published around the launch date, some the week before, some the week of, and some a little bit after was easy to do again, because I put in that work ahead of time, and I had these relationships already. Having a website built to kind of push people to, as well as bonuses, that's all part of the marketing effort as well. But the podcast guesting strategy was huge. It allowed me to do a lot of that ahead of time. Not all in like the same week, but like spread out across several months. So it didn't, like, really bog me down. And just again, to have that all planned for launch week was great. One thing that I did that I hadn't ever done before leading up to a book Launch, was this TikTok and short form video strategy that was actually inspired by the short form videos that I created on my Pokemon channel, which have blown up. My editing for these videos is really fast. I've understood how to kind of edit, you know, short form videos very quickly now. And using the power of voiceovers, I've learned, is absolutely huge. I know you've had Jenny Royes on the show before and her content here on your show blew up with regards to short form. So I'm excited to talk about that more because it is working and it's working really well. And my strategy for the book launch was to, 21 days before the launch to daily create a video that would live on TikTok Instagram Reels and shorts. And this would be just essentially like a diary of an author leading up to the launch of his book and all the mental and all the emotions that kind of go along with that. And it kicked off 21 days before with me opening my book out of a box. And it was the first time I saw the book in person, which is a very special moment in the world of an author. And I was able to capture this. I shared it with my family. It was recorded as a shared moment with the family, so there was some emotion in it. I connected it back to one of my favorite movies, which is Back to the Future, because at the end, George McFly, he opens his book and he says, if you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything. I brought that in myself and it just became a very personal moment that I opened up for the world. And that video in and of itself was like, like kicked off that series. And I think it saw like 250,000 views across all the platforms, including X as well. You know, that was really cool. And then the next day, coming up with a video about Imposter Syndrome and how I was feeling, even though I had the book in my hands, all the sort of demons in my head about it started to come out and being very open about that. People started to see the vulnerability there and started to connect and started saying, you got this. And I wasn't doing it fishing for like you got this or it's going to do great. But more just as another type of seed that I can plant that this book was coming out and then a few days later sharing a little story about how I went up to LA and drove through incredible traffic because LA sucks. To get to Sean Stevenson's studio to do an interview with him and show that I was actually making an appearance at some. I didn't do just completely all virtual, but he was nearby, just a couple hours north, so I was able to kind of drive up to him, captured that moment, saw a fun little segment of that. Other videos were more about the book itself and sort of where we're at and learning right now and why this book is needed. So leading up to that, unfortunately I wasn't able to finish daily until the launch date because I had gotten sick. I think my body and mind was just like done. So I did experience a little burnout there. But again, I think a lot of it was because I was just so worried about how this was going to go down too. But anyway, even though I did, I think it was like 16 straight days instead of 21. It still did its job. It got, I think across the board, across all those videos. I think it was seen over 4 million times across all platforms, which for a content creator looking to come out with a book is absolutely huge. And I did see people purchase the book who said like, I'm buying this to support you. I've been on this journey the last couple weeks with you as you've promoted it. It's very inspiring. I want to help you out to this book is needed right now. All those reasons and more people ended up buying the book and supporting during the pre launch phase. So yeah, it was really cool like and it wasn't that difficult, you know, it was just turning the camera on and talking to it a couple times and just kind of sharing it as I was going. I think too many marketers wait until launch day to start talking about these things. And I think even if you're in the process of creating your thing, it's not even done yet. You can open up the camera and talk and share a little bit about how you're feeling because we, we want to connect with other humans and when you can show up as another human and share your journey, that's what's gonna resonate more and perhaps relate to people more than just here's the info I'm putting together for you.

[B]

After one more quick break, I ask Pat how to ask for a favor, even when it's a little bit awkward. Then we touch base on a few more of the tactics of marketing his new book. So don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And now please enjoy the rest of my conversation with Pat Flynn.

[C]

I have so many open doors I wanna walk through now, so I'm gonna go through a couple of the quickest ones first.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

You have all these relationships from 15 years doing the podcast, and, you know, like, this person will probably reciprocate and be excited to bring me onto the show. Asking for a favor is still sometimes uncomfortable. Is that something that you struggled with? I'm projecting because it's something that I think I would struggle with. And if so, how did you overcome that and make the asks? Did you find a certain way to format the question that worked well for you? This is what I've been curious about.

[A]

For 80% of the people that I reached out to asking for a favor, it was very easy. I literally just asked, and I was comfortable because they did the literal same exact thing to me before, and I was able to help them out. So it was very, very easy also, because with those people in general, I've kept in close contact with them over time. This was something, again, that Jordan Harbinger taught me, was like, you know, go back into your messages app on your phone, scroll all the way to the bottom if there are any people there who you're like, oh, my gosh, I haven't talked to this person in a while. I should at least stay in contact with them. Go and do that. And that's an exercise I do pretty much every month. At the end of the month, I look and I see in my messages app, like, who should I have connected with that I didn't? For no other reason than to just stay connected. The hard ask is when you're like, hey, Jim, I haven't talked to you in, like, eight years, but I have this book coming out. Can you promote it for me? Like, that's never gonna work. And that's where it starts to feel uncomfortable, which is where if I hadn't talked to a person in a while, again, knowing that I've helped somebody before, helped out with a lot of this, a lot of the emotion going into this, but if I haven't talked to them for a while, I don't want to just come out of the blue and ask. So it's about starting a conversation and Getting on a call with them, which is what I did with. With pretty much everybody else. I didn't again, want to start by just asking. I want to start by catching up and see what they're up to. And I found, and this is always the case, Jay, when I get into a conversation with somebody and if I can first be so curious about everything that they have going on, they will automatically, without even trying, then ask, well, what do you have going on? What can I help you with? And that's where it's so easy to just drop the book. Oh, now I have permission to talk about this thing. And again, because we're friends, because we're catching up. I mean, not. I don't think I had a hundred percent hit rate. I think it was like more like 95. But even those who said, no, I can't do it right now, they were just like, no, I can't do it right now. And it's like, that's it. No problem. That's easy. And then we move on. Balancing this, like, promotion, marketing, and I gotta get these conversions and hit rates with just, like, real relationships. I mean, that's where you either put in the work ahead of time so that it just doesn't even feel like selling at all, or you gotta be a dang good copywriter or almost like over promise so that you can give them something later for the thing that you need right now, which is, I'm never comfortable kind of doing that. So as far as questions, I mean, again, just. Just being honest and asking, that's it. Knowing that the worst to happen, especially if we have a relationship, is just, hey, I can't do it right now. Hey, we're still friends, we're still cool. And yeah, that's it.

[C]

I think that's part of the benefit of having the lead time that a traditionally published book comes with is, you know, you're coming out with a book.

[B]

And you know it for a while.

[C]

And so you can start that process of reconnecting with folks literally years in advance and not feel like, ah, I already dropped the ball. It's like, you still got time to pick that ball back up.

[A]

I think it's a long game, dude. That's where I think the difference is between those who succeed and those who fail. It's like, well, what timeframe are you giving yourself to succeed and fail? If you are in this for the long game, well, you might kind of stumble, but you're not done. You're going to keep going. And that relationship, that might be a no. Now, years down the road could be an absolute yes. And so I think this is tough for a lot of people today who are looking for results fast, especially young entrepreneurs who are looking to see results faster. As much as I kind of laugh when people say, like, oh, Pat, you're like a legend. You were one of the OGs back in 2008. And I'm like, yeah, I know I'm old, but I also have spent a lot of time building relationships, and to serve first always has helped me in return, whether it happens right away or a decade later.

[C]

Did you put any thought into the sequencing of when you pitch certain shows based on their size and stature?

[A]

You know, I didn't. No. I wasn't getting that scientific with it. I mean, we could have. Right, with a spreadsheet and go, okay, here's the frequency here is like, we could ask people who are on the show, like, how much in advance did you ask for? No, there was none of that. It was just purely organic. Within months before the launch date. Just kind of reaching out to people. Some of it was text messages. Some of it was DMS and Instagram. Others were email. You know, Ali Abdaal, for example, is a good example. He and I have stayed connected throughout the years, and I've helped him, I think, three or four times, launches YouTuber Academy in front of my audience. And I've been a guest inside of his academy as well. And I know that it had been, like a year since I'd spoken to him because he had launched his book and he, like, moved to Hong Kong and is doing all this other stuff and making changes in his business. I just sent him an email. I was like, hey, Ellie, I have a book coming out, if it makes sense. I'd love to see what we can do together to help get this in front of your audience. And he was like, bro, fly to Hong Kong. We'll do a complete episode together. And I was like, whoa, dude, I can't do that because I got a lot of other stuff going on, but whatever you can do. And he filmed this incredible video, and it perfectly aligned with his audience because he's talking about productivity, and that helped out a ton. But most of the people I connect with, you are included in this, Jay. Believe in this world of abundance where we're all like, you know, we're not at, like, a poker table where if you win, that means I'm losing, or if I win, that means you're losing. That's what I love about us and about many of the People that we surround ourselves with is we're all just here to help each other and the world. And I know that sounds corny or perhaps even cliche, but, I mean, I didn't ask people who I know would be in it for the wrong reasons. I didn't. I didn't. There probably was a lot more people I could have reached out and asked for, but I like to serve those who are there to serve, like I do in this world. And that's where I think a lot of this was made much easier.

[C]

In your proposal, did you talk about doing this short form series, launching the book? Was that a core part of your marketing plan?

[A]

No, that wasn't in the marketing material or anything in the proposal. This was, I mean, new. The proposal came four years ago, before daily shorts were even like a, like a thing really. And I was actually opposed to shorts for the longest time because I thought long form was the only way to build a relationship with an audience. Now, of course, there are people who have utilized TikTok and reels for so many amazing marketing strategies, from that lawnmower company to personal brands who show up with challenges or sailing with Phoenix. I mean, there are obviously cases that people have built up larger audiences and relationships much faster. But I thought for educational purposes, like, this wasn't the key. But I found that, like, here's the analogy I used. Short form is like Halloween candy. People come to your house, they ring the doorbell, you, you give them candy, they move on like you're forgotten about. Unless you have the biggest Snicker bars on the block, like the king size bars, you're not going to be talked about like you're done. Whereas like long form videos, you're sitting people down for a meal and there's entree, there's, you know, there's, there's a Moos bouge. There's like the whole experience and that's where you build a relationship. And then they want to come back to the restaurant, order more, and then bring their friends and family. This is why I was, I was like, long form is king. But I ran this experiment not too long ago on Shorts and this was through my Pokemon channel. And what I found beyond like the numbers and the success behind it was that I was building a relationship with people through short form, but it was only because I was showing up daily. So instead of one long meal, it wasn't just a one time, Hey, I see your video. And then they move on. They're making it a part of their nightly routine to watch this Pokemon video. It's this Pokemon series and this framework that uses the jingle should I open it or should I keep it sealed? And that has gone on to be seen over 3.5 billion times across multiple platforms. And what I've learned is that people are now making me a part of their daily lives in that short little 60 second moment. But across almost an entire year now, that's even more minutes than one or two long form videos. So I don't think it matters what platform you use so long as you know how to utilize it you and how to show up for your audience and be there for them. And for me, short form video can kind of only work if you're showing up on a daily basis. Which is again why I decided to go daily. Leading up to the launch of the book. I just so happened to fall short cuz I got sick. But no, this was not a part of any marketing plan in the proposal. The marketing plan and the proposal that they wanted to see was here's how big my email list is, here are the people who I have relationships with, and here's how big their platforms are. That's pretty much it.

[B]

If you enjoyed this episode and you're listening on Spotify, please leave a comment and let me know. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, please leave a rating or review. We're getting close to 500.

[C]

I would love to get there.

[B]

They go a long way and I read every single one of them. They make my day. If you want to learn more about Pat, visit his [e-mail] or smartpassiveincome.com I've also linked to his Pokemon channels here in the show Notes. Thank you for listening and I'll talk to you next week.