Creator Science Podcast #276: From Self-Publishing to Traditional and Becoming a NYT Best-seller | Pat Flynn (Part 2)

Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Jay Clouse
Guest: Pat Flynn

Episode Overview

This episode is the second part of Jay Clouse’s deep dive conversation with Pat Flynn—founder of Smart Passive Income, serial author, and creator across multiple platforms. The discussion centers on Pat’s transition from self-publishing to traditional publishing with his latest book, "Lean: How to Achieve More by Learning Less," his experience in becoming a New York Times bestseller, and how he intentionally approaches the business and marketing of content in a rapidly changing creator landscape.

Key themes include the contrasts between self-publishing and traditional publishing, the realities behind the New York Times list, leveraging multiple audiences, and evidence-backed strategies to stand out as a creator.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Becoming a NYT Best-seller: Lived Experience vs. Expectations

• [02:05] Pat explains that while achieving New York Times bestseller status was a significant personal milestone, his day-to-day life didn't drastically change.
  • “My phone hasn’t been blowing up, I haven’t been receiving a ton of emails… the book hasn’t hit Atomic Habits levels yet or anything like that… nothing has changed.” — Pat Flynn ([02:28])
  • He notes the pride from family and peers in Boise but stays grounded about what the list means for long-term success.

2. The Move from Self-Publishing to Traditional Publishing

• [03:28] Most creators move away from traditional publishing, but Pat chose to experiment with it after multiple successful self-published books.

  • Why go traditional?
    • He wanted first-hand experience to offer genuine advice to others.
    • Aimed to build authority in the broader self-development/learning space outside of entrepreneurship.
  • Trade-offs encountered:
    • Less control over decisions (e.g., cover design, marketing, timeline).
    • Publisher-imposed structure (eg. manuscript deadlines) provided valuable external accountability.
    • Gained distribution and credibility, but had to cede some creative oversight.

  “So many people had asked me, ‘Pat, which would you do if you were in my position? Would you self publish or traditionally publish?’ And I couldn't honestly answer that… I just wanted to see what it was like.” — Pat Flynn ([03:39])

3. Differences Between Self, Traditional, and Hybrid Publishing

• [05:26] Pat discusses the incremental pros and cons after his first traditional book launch.

  • Publisher provided logistical relief (editing, printing).
  • Marketing largely left to the author’s efforts, despite publisher’s resources.
  • Hybrid models increasingly attractive: more royalties, some distribution, more control.

  “It was largely my doing, my email list, my promotions, my short form videos leading up to the launch… They [the publisher] didn’t do much in the marketing side of things.” — Pat Flynn ([06:26])

4. How Publishing "Resources" Shift with Success

• [08:12] Only after hitting the NYT list did Pat see his publisher increase their involvement, primarily by making PR connections and leveraging their Rolodex.

  • No financial bonuses for hitting bestseller status, but increased access to elite media opportunities.
  • Publishing world remains opaque—a mix of genuine support and “wait to see what takes off” strategy.

  “Now that the book has gotten on the list, there is seemingly more resources being put into this… Let’s tap into our Rolodex, make some calls, maybe get you on some shows that you wouldn’t have been able to get on otherwise.” — Pat Flynn ([08:37])

5. Securing a Traditional Deal as a Platform-Driven Creator

• [10:43] Despite Pat’s visibility in the creator economy, many in publishing were unaware of his credentials. His agent and proposal had to "sell" his platform and prior success.
  • Platform metrics, social proof, past book sales are crucial in proposals.
  • “Selling yourself” is still required, even with a large audience.

6. Tensions with Publisher over Launch Tactics

• [12:21] Disagreements arose over pre-order strategy and audiobook release timing.

  • Publishers wanted extended pre-order periods for forecasting, while Pat feared audience fatigue.
  • Preferred staggered audiobook release (to concentrate attention), publisher insisted on simultaneous release.

  “There were certain things I just wish we could do differently… I know we're going to sell books, trust me. And they're like, ‘Well, we want to see it before we place these orders.’” — Pat Flynn ([12:41])

7. Creative Cross-pollination Between Pokémon and Entrepreneurial Audiences

• [15:01] Pat leveraged his Pokémon channel’s superfans with a unique pre-order campaign:

  • Bought 1,000 Pokémon card packs; offered one to each purchaser from the Pokémon community.
  • Sold 1,000 books through this cross-niche strategy.

  “I set up a bonus such that if a person from the Pokémon side of things pre-ordered the book and sent in their receipt as proof, I would send them a bonus pack of Pokémon cards... all a thousand were claimed.” — Pat Flynn ([16:41])

8. Word-of-Mouth and Timeliness in Book Success

• [17:25] Achieving "K factor" above one (each reader recommends to at least one new person) is key for book longevity.
  • The book's timeliness, especially with the current flood of AI-driven learning and information overload, contributed to reader resonance.

9. Building and Maintaining a Multifaceted Personal Brand

• [20:46] Pat’s identity now straddles entrepreneurship, Pokémon entertainment, and mainstream self-development (lean learning).

  • Unexpected overlap: entrepreneurial audience inspired to pursue hobbies; Pokémon audience drawn into business.
  • Maintains fulfillment and creative freshness by allowing multiple disciplines to coexist.

  “If I become known for lean learning for some people, that's great… If you want to learn about Pokémon, cool… All these things do overlap because learning is sort of at the basis of all of it.” — Pat Flynn ([21:46])

10. Countering the “One Thing” Advice

• [24:42] Challenges the belief that creators must focus on only one interest to succeed.

  • Multiple creative outlets stave off burnout and cross-pollinate ideas across different niches.

  “When we just stick to the one thing, it more quickly leads to burnout. It more quickly leads to not being the best self..." — Pat Flynn ([24:42])

11. Book Marketing Strategy: Podcast Guesting & Short-form Video

• [26:52] Podcast tours were primary launch tool due to proven track record in selling books (vs. traditional media).

  • Pat’s 15 years of relationships (“dig your well before you’re thirsty”) made it easier to appear on 50+ podcasts around launch.

  “I think Sean Stevenson said… podcast guesting was by far the best thing that worked for him. So… that was my primary strategy for content.” — Pat Flynn ([27:03])

• Short-form video campaign:

  • 21-day TikTok, Reels, and Shorts diary leading to launch.
  • Leveraged authenticity, vulnerability (imposter syndrome, behind-the-scenes).
  • Hit 4M+ views across all platforms; engaged a wide range of his audience.
  • Relied heavily on practice from the Pokémon channel.

  "Leading up to the launch, unfortunately I wasn’t able to finish daily until the launch date because I had gotten sick... But still, it did its job... I think it was seen over 4 million times across all platforms." — Pat Flynn ([31:45])

12. How to Ask for Support and Maintain Relationships

• [33:51] Explains philosophy and tactics around requesting favors:

  • For close contacts, just ask—many had already reciprocated previously.
  • For looser connections, lead with curiosity and catch up first; favor often surfaces naturally in conversation.
  • Most key: Nurture relationships long term, not just when you need something.

  “If I can first be so curious about everything that they have going on, they will automatically, without even trying, then ask, ‘Well, what do you have going on? What can I help you with?’” — Pat Flynn ([34:36])

13. Evolving Views on Short-form Content and Platform Choice

• [39:30] Pat previously believed only long-form could build real audience relationships.

  • Now, he recognizes the compounding power of daily short-form (inspired by his Pokémon shorts’ billions of views).
  • Building relationships through bite-sized daily interactions is possible; cadence matters as much as format.

  “Short form is like Halloween candy… unless you have the biggest Snicker bars on the block, like the king size, you’re not going to be talked about. … But I found… people are now making me a part of their daily lives in that short little 60 second moment…” — Pat Flynn ([40:01])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Many people think it was completely the wrong decision to go down this traditional route because I already had the audience and I was able to do most of the marketing myself. But again, I think it was worth the experiment and the experience.” — Pat Flynn ([08:58])
• “The hard ask is when you’re like, ‘Hey, Jim, I haven’t talked to you in eight years, but I have this book coming out. Can you promote it for me?’ Like, that’s never gonna work.” — Pat Flynn ([34:08])
• “I think it’s a long game, dude. That’s where I think the difference is between those who succeed and those who fail: what timeframe are you giving yourself to succeed and fail?” — Pat Flynn ([36:38])
• “I don’t know if that goes against what a lot of advice we hear from people like Alex Hormozi, which is like, ‘You need to focus on one thing.’ It’s like, I’m definitely not doing that, but I can’t because… when I do, I don’t feel fulfilled.” — Pat Flynn ([22:59])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:05] — Pat on becoming a NYT bestseller
• [03:28] — Why Pat went traditional for his latest book
• [05:26] — Pros and cons of traditional vs. self-publishing
• [08:12] — What “more resources” from a publisher really means
• [10:43] — Selling yourself as an author with an existing platform
• [12:21] — Pushback on launch tactics with the publisher
• [15:01] — Using Pokémon community for book marketing
• [17:25] — Word-of-mouth and book longevity
• [20:46] — The three “legs” of Pat’s personal brand
• [24:42] — Rejecting the “one thing” creator philosophy
• [26:52] — Book marketing with podcast tours and short-form video
• [33:51] — How to ask for and receive support from your network
• [39:30] — Realizations about daily short-form content

Conclusion: Actionable Takeaways & Tone

Pat Flynn’s open, reflective, and experimental approach is evident throughout—he’s willing to try new things, learn from the process, and share what works (and what doesn’t) with candor and humor. Listeners are reminded that the creator journey is iterative and personal, and that sophisticated marketing can be both values-driven and playful.

Whether you’re considering how to launch your own book, nurture a multi-interest creator ecosystem, or just find your edge in a noisy landscape, this episode is packed with actionable wisdom and heartfelt encouragement.

"We are a curious people, we are Renaissance people, we are multidisciplinary, and we have to scratch all those itches or else those itches just become so painful that we just can't live with ourselves." — Pat Flynn ([25:07])