B (5:15)

Hello, my friend. It's great to have you here. And we are going to have some fun in this one because we are talking with none other than Jay Clouse of the brand Creator Science. Now, if you are a human on the Internet creating content, you've probably run across Jay at some point. His brand is called Creator Science, which is his podcast, his newsletter, both of which I would recommend tuning into. And he also runs a community membership called the Lab, which I'm a paying member of, where I personally stay up to date on all things social media, content creation, podcasting, communities, memberships, all of the above. Now, what's interesting about Jay is we've been friends for over five years now, and I saw him go from just building his little online brand to becoming one of the most prominent thought leaders in the industry today. But a lot has changed over the past year, in particular because he had a little baby, a little cuddly Klaus. And in this conversation we really dig into how he is managing his business, how he's running, running it, and what he's learned by being a parentpreneur and hopes to help you as well. Even if you don't have kiddos now, or maybe not yet, there's still some very valuable lessons in here with just how to balance your business and your time and set priorities and all of those really important things when it comes to sustainability. So the unsexy title for this episode is how to be Sustainable as an Entrepreneur. And without further ado, here's my good friend Jay. We're going to dive into this one. And he is also our first four Pete guest, which means he is the most repeated guest on the podcast to date. So cheers to Jay. Cheers to you. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Head the show notes at this one, which are going to be found at Joshhull Co 408 to get all the links that we mentioned. Without further ado, here's Jay. What tell me about when it comes to creating content, especially as much as you're doing, I think, and I think I've heard you talk about reducing the barrier to entry or just making it easier, making it as much like as easiest to. Just like you said, flip a switch and go. Have you found your productivity with content has helped with the new office?

A (7:37)

Yes, especially in. In video form because everything's still, I mean there's, there's still some friction. Like I just recorded a, an interview for my podcast before we hopped on here. And from a perspective of redundancy, but then also video quality, I now record locally to the camera as well as Riverside. Riverside records locally to your machine, but it's still recording 1080. I can record locally to the camera 4K and, and so I record 4K from the camera, use the Riverside audio. But then we've got to apply like color correction to the RAW recording and then we've gotta sync up the audio and video. So to do things at like the level that I really wanna do, there's still some friction. But if I wanted to sit down and say like, hey, I just wanna rip out a 60 second story to camera that I can then put into short form. Vertical video format, super plug and play, easy to do. I can sit down and do it and it looks great.

B (8:33)

Yeah.

A (8:34)

I get people that are like, is that a virtual background? And no, like, yeah, this opens. This is a locker. This has stuff in it. And actually it's very functional. The lockers that are off screen down there, I'm storing all my stuff in. So it is genuinely a dream. And I have a second desk over here that's a standing desk with a walking pad. So when I'm not recording, I can still be in here and like it steps in. It's, it's, it's the best, man.

B (9:00)

Yeah, it's awesome. Well, it's a representation of. Not that you were ever not professional, but just how professional you and your brand has become. And I got to say publicly, Jay, like, it's freaking awesome, dude, to see your trajectory and your success over the past, well, five plus years since I've known you. 2020 is when we connected originally. So yeah, man, it's just freaking awesome to see hard work pay off. So I'm thrilled for you, thrilled for your family. It was awesome having you as a speaker for our event this year for the first WDP Con. And you are. I was looking. I think you're my first four Pete guest on the podcast.

A (9:42)

Let's go. So I love that I'll be your first five Pete too. But in SNL tradition, I expect on the fifth appearance to get a jacket with a number five on it.

B (9:52)

It would go nice in your locker, wouldn't it?

A (9:53)

Deal with Timers Club right in the locker.

B (9:56)

Deal. It's on record. But yeah, man, I'm thrilled to see hard work pay off, dude. It's really, really cool. I Mean, a lot of my audience is very familiar with you now. Even though most are web designers at heart, they're entrepreneurs. And I've been really clear about who I trust in the industry to learn from and see what's working. And you're at the top of the list, man. So, yeah, I don't know what to say to kick off other than it's freaking awesome to see all you've done.

A (10:24)

Well, I am flying high. Thank you. And remind me, after this, we just put on the calendar, we're doing an in person event for the lab in November.

B (10:36)

I'll be dinner.

A (10:37)

10 course dinner. 10 course dinner. Oh, have you been to Isla here in Columbus yet?

B (10:43)

Oh, I've heard good things though.

A (10:44)

You're gonna love it. Is that.

B (10:45)

Did your wife take you here for your birthday? Is that okay? All right, I'm in. I'm great. You know, one course dinner. I'm appetizer. I'm in. So count me in, dude.

A (10:56)

Yeah, that's great.

B (10:57)

Yeah, no, it's been cool being a part of your membership too. I wish I could have more time to invest in it, but we are parentpreneurs. I actually wanted to start with that. I know we were talking some Riverside specifics. I want to get to that. But first I want to ask you about parenthood. What have you learned about your first year as a parentpreneur? Good or bad?

A (11:19)

Well, being a parent is like the best thing that's ever happened to me. Let's start there. It's also the most destructive thing that's happened to the business. Like my. My way of working, it's just been destroyed, you know, because leading into birth of our daughter last year, I didn't have margin in my day, really. Like, this actually goes back to Covid. During COVID when everything went from in person to virtual. All of my work also went in person to virtual. And as a highly efficient person, I was just packing my calendar with anything because I can go from meeting to meeting if I'm staying in the same chair. So for the last, like five years, my way of working was just to pack my calendar, pack my time, and get as much output as possible. And bringing a small human in the world, that person not only, like, needs me, but I want to devote as much time as possible now to being a dad. So where does that time come from? I am still working through that because in the beginning it was like, I can just do all the things I can just do more. Like just bring it on. Waking up earlier, working later, and that is not sustainable and really has been tough this year to try to just maintain the same level of output with less time. It doesn't work. So I'm, I'm really having to do some tough prioritization and make some changes because I also embarked on a. The start of a book this year. And that's a monstrous project. Even if it's a complete failure. A monstrous project. So I'm saying I didn't have enough time before the baby to continue doing what I was doing, but I'm going to do that. Plus the baby, plus a book doesn't work. So I've really had to rework some things and I'm still very much figuring that out.

B (13:24)

What, what's gone well, what, what's something that you've loved about it or has, you know, been a net positive for you?

A (13:33)

It's, it's just brought a lot of clarity to what matters and what doesn't matter. Like, I still get stressed about certain things within the business, but it's my, my base level stress tolerance has risen. Uh, my tolerance for stuff that doesn't matter has decreased. My ability to weed things out and say no to things has increased. Um, and I feel like there's generally a larger purpose to what I'm doing. It now sort of centers more of my purpose on the family, which sometimes I struggle with because it's like the, the business will capture more value when it creates more value for more people. But my purpose is so anchored in family that sometimes those things feel a little bit at odds. You know what I mean? So I'm figuring, I'm figuring that out. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's just brought a different appreciation to time. And when I'm not actually working and I'm actually spending time with my daughter, the way that she moves about and views the world is just, it's so refreshing. It's so awesome. Uh, there's, there's like no better antidepressant than hugging your kid.

B (14:58)

There it is. Clip it. That was it right there. Well said, Jay. It's funny because, like the, the time issue, I would love to say it gets better, but I actually feel like we're in the hardest it's been for us at least with three kids under seven, of course, you know, but with Bria, my oldest, being, special needs, it's a, it's a level of care that is far greater than, than our other two. But it is that what you hit on of like the, the weed out tolerance and how easy it is to say no to stuff. I found myself ramping up on that even more so. I've been pretty good at that over the years, but even more so now. It's like most everything's a no. Yeah, it's like maybe 10% at most, maybe not even. That is a pretty much immediate deal. It's kind of hard to get to, I think, as a people pleaser and as an entrepreneur who just likes to do stuff and likes to get the brand out there. I think you and I are very alike in that. But I think it's the idea of, like, signal versus noise. You've probably heard that on entrepreneurial circles. Basically just priority, like, what's going to move the needle. That's something I've really tried to hone in on this year. And with that limited time, like, just to only focus on things that are going to move the needle. And it kills me to have an inbox that's not at zero, but we're just. We're there.

A (16:13)

Oh, yeah, that is out the window for sure. I'm no longer doing any speaking after this recording. I'm not doing interviews for the foreseeable future. Actually, somebody recently asked me to, like, do a virtual event with them. And I was like, hey, I am on a no rule right now as someone that I knew personally. So I was like, my instinct is to say no to this, but how easy can you make this for me? Like, I need to do no prep. I need to show up. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. So I said, okay, that's great. Two weeks later, I. I'm getting emails from his team like, hey, can you suggest some topics for us to cover and can you help us plan? I'm like, nope, I'm out. And I've I've never. I've never broken a commitment like that before. But I. I was just like, this isn't what I signed up for. My instinct said in the first place I shouldn't do this. We're several weeks out. I'm going to break this off because I know I'm going to show up and regret having said yes. I just. I just got to say no. I got to say no to as much as possible right now. And the thing is, like, I feel like our psychology updates slower than our reality. And. And this the way. I mean, that is like, you get to where we are by saying yes to a lot of things in the beginning, and you're, like, just begging for opportunity. And. And then you get to this point where You've got to start saying no. And it's not. You got to say no 9 out of 10 times. It's like, you got to say no 99 out of a hundred times. It's like a significant level of no. You know, that's one yes versus ten yeses. So it's. It's really hard. Um, and I feel like the same person. My brain hasn't changed that much. I still get the same levels of like, ooh, when opportunities come in. Or my wife and I joke. We still remember being like super broke and we would like see help wanted signs at the grocery store and be like, well, if all else fails, there's that. But we still do that. Like we see help wanted signs at a grocery store and we're like, I wonder how much that pays. I wonder if I have time for that. What. What is going on in my brain right now. It's wild.

B (18:31)

Well, I appreciate all that, man. It's. It's gratifying. It's. It makes me feel. Not that I've ever felt alone in this, but I do think it's. It's tricky because as entrepreneurs we tend to see all the outside things on all of our social media channels. This kind of thing isn't talked about too much. I feel like broadly. So I do like kind of drilling into this idea of priority and then especially when it comes to kids, because the reality is you can base it around time and like just more time with the kids. But what I found is even more important is like presence. Like, we've all had the experience. I shared this recently in an in person event that you and I were at. But there was that time where I was doing like four things at once. I was multitasking, watching a Jackets game, hanging out with my baby, listening to my wife, and I didn't know what was going on in the game. I missed time with my daughter. I did not hear what my wife said. And that idea of like, presence and being able to quiet the ongoing elevator hum as an entrepreneur is, Is I think has gotten harder as the business has grown. And I just know personally that's kind of where I'm at is like, I've been pretty good at allotting the time, but now I'm trying to do better at like truly being present when I.

A (19:45)

Super hard for me too. And in fact, for a long time when people would ask me like, what's it like having a daughter? And I was like, man, my time is wrecked. But the nice thing is I actually have more time to think because there are a lot of like, mindless activities, especially when she was like a slug, you know, where it's like holding the baby, rocking the baby, changing the baby, feeding the baby, where it's like, I can't be at the keyboard right now. Not that I even really want to be, but I do have time to think. And so it was like, okay, I can, when I get back to the desk, I have a plan and I can go straight into execution. The thinking has been done. But as she's getting older and she is more present and she has more like thoughts and she's doing stuff, I don't want to not be there mentally, you know, so it's like not only do I have less working execution time, but I have less thinking time too. So it's, it's a, it's a double whammy and I've had to further let things go.

B (20:46)

Yeah, I think it's good though. I mean, I know we're not being negative about this. It's just the harsh reality of balancing parenthood and entrepreneurship. Especially because you and I are both very active as dads. It'd be one thing if you didn't really care that much and you just like you're working 70 hours a week regardless. Which I do think was much more common for entrepreneurs and generations, you know, past us. But I think it's. Honestly, as I'm thinking about it, I feel like it's almost not needed for most people, but I think it's really good for folks who are family minded because as you know, like, if you have all the time in the world, you just fill it with more work and you just take more opportunities and do new things and launch new products. So I almost feel like you're, you're an I personalities. And a lot of the folks I see in Web Designer Pro who are the high performer go getters, we almost need something to like reel us in and make us slow down and like realign and look at our priorities.

A (21:40)

For sure, I mean, if we had a nine to five, hopefully we have transparency around what success in our role looks like and so we know if we are being successful and if so, we can be done with work for that period of time. And our bosses are off the clock afterwards and they're probably leaving us alone at, and evenings and weekends. But the, the reality of an entrepreneur is in the beginning, you're just scratching and clawing to get any traction, make ends meet. So nights and weekends are fair game. And you, you have a little bit of a. I don't know if it's a scarcity mindset, but it's, it's kind of like a survival mindset, you know, and when you're. Your feeling of survival is threatened, it actually eliminates your ability to have empathy. Like you, you can only think about surviving. And it's, it's hard to deprogram that once the business has become more successful because you don't have anybody telling you like, it's okay. You, you'll be okay. The, the safety net, you don't know how low is that's going to catch you. Like, is it going to catch you? Is there one? And if I don't work tonight, this weekend, if I don't do this thing that I think I should, like, will it be okay? It's hard to know, especially if you, if your business is built around net new customers, you're always like, where are they going to come from? They got to come from somewhere. And I should probably be doing something to influence that. It's the nice thing about a membership model because at least to some degree that is recurring. Of course there's churn and whatever else, but at least to some degree, like there's some reasonable expectation there. But yeah, I think, I think it's just an extra hard thing for entrepreneurs. And who do you talk to about it? Hopefully you have a great relationship with your spouse. You can talk to them about it. But you also know, in my case, my capacity to hold stress and know that it's temporary is higher than my wife's because I've been doing the entrepreneurship thing longer. So if I'm stressed and she notices it and she asks what's going on in my brain, I could tell her, but it's going to have a much more potent effect on her psyche than mine because I know this will pass. And so a lot of times I don't share the full details of that. And that's a hard thing to just sit with and act like everything is fine, I'm fine. Uh, but that's, that's what we signed up for.

B (24:22)

Yeah, it's like a muscle that is trained over the years, isn't it? To where like. Yeah, it's like a, there's a tolerance in like hardships, good times and bad times. I get less excited about awesome stuff and less down about negative stuff. I've kind of dulled my, my sense of like the roller coaster feelings, which I think is actually needed. I mean, I still get pumped up and I animated. But it is interesting when I think when people. I found this with a couple of the members of Pro who are in their first one to two years of business. Like the first couple bad client interactions are just devastating. They take it personally. They're in a depression, they're just crushed. They're thinking about quitting. But then I talk to them a year or two later and they're just like a different personality. I mean it's literally like a, you know, it's like, it's like a war veteran who goes to their first couple tours and they come back and stuff rubs off differently. And I found that to be the case in entrepreneurship too. So how long?

A (25:23)

It's exposure. You know, like the first time you're exposed to something, it's shocking, scary, hard. And then over time it gets easier. I can name like 10 different experiences that, that has been true just in this business in the last few years. You. The things that were hard get easier. And in fact, if you're not feeling any level of discomfort, that's probably a bad sign that you're, you're not pushing and improving and kind of at risk of being disrupted. So it's, it's tough. You know, you said like the, the lows aren't as low, the highs aren't as high. That kind of leveling out of emotion, I've 1000% been there. I can tap into that at any time. But I also question, like, is that optimal? Like, is that the best way to experience day to day life? Like, I want the highs to be as high as possible, but I can't allow that without also allowing super low lows. And it's, it's a pick your poison sort of thing. But it's, that's a good point. You can't just take off the bottom.

B (26:36)

Yeah, I guess I should, I should clarify in that and saying as you said that, Jay, I thought about the highest high I've had in years has been the, the event that I had earlier this year. And I know you were only a part of the workshop briefly, but like it was truly what happened around the event with our socials and the one on ones just like the one that you had recently. I mean that was like, that was a high, high high, but it was new, new, new. I'm curious, when we do the event next year, what's that high gonna feel like? It'll feel different because it's not the first time, but I do anticipate it to be really high. But there's a good challenge to like make sure that I'm not getting complacent or comfortable in those wins and those high feelings too. Um, it's a lot easier now, you know, if somebody has a support request or isn't happy with something, I'm like, oh, that. I don't think twice about it now. Used to lose sleep over it years ago. Now I don't even. It doesn't faze me. But good challenge to remember to not get complacent with the wins and the highs. Yeah.

A (27:33)

Yeah. I'm just thinking a lot about. I don't know how, like, competitive your space is. I do know that, like, just the online business space, generally super competitive as far as, like, where you can play in the content world. And I feel a lot of pressure all the time to disrupt myself or, like, continue to elevate myself.

B (28:02)

Or get.

A (28:03)

Lost in the wash, you know, and that's probably a story I tell myself to some degree. I think it serves me and has served the business to some degree, but also probably comes at some cost psychologically. But it's. It is something that I think about quite a bit.

B (28:16)

Well, let's talk. Let's switch gears and talk about content. We'll go from baby chub to content. We were talking about Riverside before this, about, you know, the clipping features and the snippets and just some of the tool sets. Now what are you doing to make content easier for you? We kicked off with your studio. It sounds like that's helped to some degree with just making it, you know, just an easier process without you tinkering with everything. What else are you doing to make content easier, especially since you have much less time?

A (28:46)

You know what I've been thinking about lately? The easiest content has felt over the last couple months, writing has felt the easiest. And I can name, like, the essays where it did feel the easiest. And it came from a place of I got something to say. You know what I mean? So I'm trying to. I'm trying to, like, create more opportunities where I'm the type of guy that just doesn't have an opinion most of the time unless pressed. And if I do have an opinion, I typically don't just share it unless asked, which is not what platforms want. They want you to have strong opinions constantly and share them.

B (29:27)

Can I share a quick story on that, please? I'll post something about a really meaty tip that helps people make six figures and it gets nothing, whereas a picture of one of my goldens goes wild. So there's that kind of thing, but something I experimented with and it was one of those because I'm kind of wired the same way to where I'm not one just Hermosi and just post what I'm thinking at 2am or whatever. But I did one time and I just had this off the wall. Thought it may be horrible, but it's just something that I notice with people that I oversee, which is this thought was like, however many business books you read, you could probably make about ten to a hundred thousand dollars in revenue over your lifespan based off of that. So if you read 10 business books, I think you could probably make a million dollars. If you read 20 business books, you can probably make 2 million. I posted that on Threads when I just dove in and just tried it out and I woke up and it was like. And it negative social media experience that I ever had. And I actually took the post down mainly because I'm not, I'm not averted to conflict. Well, number one, I didn't have the time. I knew myself and I was like, if I go down this rabbit hole, it's going to just be a huge chunk of waste of time. But I looked at the brand and I'm like, this isn't what I want people to follow me for and see and then have that experience. It was just kind of a, it was a real world example what you just said, which is like when you do dip into that world, it is what they like. I can go viral on social media, but it's not the end game that I want.

A (31:01)

Yeah, it's, it's a really emotionally trying experience to have anything get outside of your typical bubble, you know, because like, you start getting into corners, you're like, I didn't even know this corner of the Internet existed and I don't want to be here.

B (31:19)

Yeah, that was literally my feeling. You just encapsulated, Jay. The feeling that I had when I woke up that next day and saw like a ton of. I mean, there was like, I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 comments just from the night before, which is way more than I typically get. And I was like, oh God, I don't want to do this is not what I signed up for.

A (31:36)

When you, when you grow slowly and historically from like a word of mouth perspective, there's a, there's a warmth and a benefit of the doubt that the people you reach give you. And when you just start getting in front of strangers on any social platform, you not only do not get the benefit of the doubt, you get like the polar opposite. You get like extra doubt on your motives. And it's just like, I didn't ask for this, so. Yeah, but like I said, as far as creating content goes, it's always easier for me to create from a place of. Not of I should make something, but I got to say something. And so I'm trying to find the alignment and the way to like, consistently create the. The environment where I'm coming up with things that I genuinely want to say. Because it just flows when it happens.

B (32:34)

When you have something that you're like, I got to say this, or people need to hear this. Is that going out to mostly a warm audience or do you find that that is attracting more cold audience?

A (32:44)

What I care about right now? Well, I mean, if we just go like, level by level, what I care about the most is email subscribers. People who are reading my emails because they've chosen to read the emails right next to that, like, tier. If that's tier 1A, tier 1B is the podcast, the RSS podcast, and then probably on top of that is YouTube.

B (33:07)

YouTube.

A (33:08)

So what I'm thinking about more and more is I want to double down on long form writing for a lot of reasons we can talk about if you want. And so now the game is how do I more effectively turn that writing into the backbone of the podcast, audio and or video, and then effectively short form so that I can basically focus the 80, 20 of my generative creative work into long form writing and then derive everything else from that.

B (33:40)

What's the difference between the style of writing you're doing without getting the specifics for the book versus your newsletters? I'm also curious how the heck you do one to two newsletters a week and wrote a. You know, are you finished with the book? This is one.

A (33:54)

Oh, not even close. I have, I have the book proposal in finished form, but now I have notes from my agent before we go to the marketplace.

B (34:02)

So how. Yeah, how are you balancing writing a full book and doing two notes, two newsletters a week? That's still your cadence now, right? Two.

A (34:08)

Yeah, at least one. Sometimes two. A lot of times the second newsletter is. Is like, there's a sponsor obligation. So now I have to write a second newsletter. It's. It would be good for me in the business to write a second. But when I don't have a sponsor obligation, oftentimes I won't. Because creating two newsletters a week is hard as far as, like, how it goes. The real bottleneck is just the thing, like the idea of the essay. And so the later in the week it comes to finding the idea that I want to write about the closer I am to the deadline of writing the thing. So the magic is when I have something that again, I'm like, I got to write about. This example being we saw these new AI short form video apps, Sora and Vibes, and I had something to say and I ripped that out in like 20 minutes. And I'm. I'm a. I'm a good writer at this point. So a lot of times what is going on in my newsletter is literally the first draft, maybe one passive revisions. So I can write stuff and send it pretty quick. But most of my newsletters, historically, I would say 90% of my newsletters were written within 48 hours of being sent.

B (35:29)

I was gonna ask you if you have a. A content gold mine or a bank that you can just pull from, but I found that personally to be very. I just don't like pulling something from three years ago. Just pop it on your Twitter. I just don't like it. Did. I tried it a couple times and it just didn't feel good.

A (35:45)

Didn't feel I probably should do it more because honestly, like, people need to relearn something just as much as I need to learn something new.

B (35:51)

True.

A (35:52)

And you and I probably both have a bunch of content from three years ago that the core idea is still super relevant and maybe we have some new nuance on top of it and we could just revisit that even if we just use it as a jumping off point, not even pulling the content in and re revising it. The bigger thing is, like, I want my content to be fairly evergreen, but there's no doubt that creating something that's a little bit more timely in the culture, it performs better. Um, so I'm op. I'm more open to that than I used to be because timeliness is one of those things that shocks me into, I got something to say. Whereas if I sit here and I think, what should I write this weekend? Should I write, like, three ways to increase your membership retention? I could. There's no urgency that. That needs to be written about this week. It's not necessarily coherent to last week's essay or next week's essay. So I'm trying to be more open to timeliness because it's good for growth. I'm trying to get more ahead of schedule. So I stopped thinking, what should I write about this week? And remove that pressure. Whenever the rare times that I have something done, written, scheduled, and I don't have such timeline pressure, I have better Ideas, I make better things. So I'm trying to get ahead a little bit, trying to remove the pressure and timeliness helps with that.

B (37:17)

What about your writing for the book? Is that a little more structured and regimented? Like where you say, you know, two days a week, certain blocks of time I'm writing, or are you free flowing with that as well around your other schedule commitments?

A (37:28)

It will get there in this stage of life, that's something that I'm going to have to work with Mal, my wife, to decide what those blocks are, because I will need that right now. It's been essentially a side project until it's like fully locked in and there are stakes and deadlines from third parties.

B (37:54)

Gotcha.

A (37:55)

Because we still don't know, like, is this a book? Do people want it? I think it is, but if I want to go the traditional route, there are other parties that need to agree with me for that to be true. And if and when that happens, that will come with terms deadline, and so the schedule will need to accommodate it and my priorities will need to more accurately, accurately reflect that on my calendar to this point, you know, we, we wrote three sample chapters and an overview for the proposal, and those were written largely in like, I would take like a day to work on the chapter and then I would revise it and it would be like the only creative work I was doing that day. I can't context switch from the book to even a newsletter right now. It has to be its own. Like, this is what I'm doing today and everything else needs to sit because it feels so distinct from the core business that I can't hold both.

B (38:58)

Yeah, I was, I was going to ask about the content switching thing. This is actually probably my number one challenge. I might, I might do a post in the lab about this, but it's probably my number one challenge because more and more I have had a harder time. For whatever reason. I don't know if it's the season of life we're in or just everything that's going on, the busyness, the mental bandwidth. But I have a harder time switching from writing newsletters, to doing a podcast, to doing video, to coaching and pro, to working on my own stuff. I used to be pretty good at like two to three hour blogs, but now I'm like, I've turned into like a day guy. I'm like, if I'm going to work on my website, this needs to be like a full day. If I'm going to do podcast stuff, it needs to be at least four or Five hours or video for sure. So how are you dealing with that? How are. And how, how are you structuring that within your week? Is it pretty strict or.

A (39:48)

I feel much the same way. I used to be able to context switch multiple times through the day and get a lot of things done like that. But the problem is, in my case, there's so much natural interruption with the baby that I used to just waste a lot of time, is the answer. Like, if I could context, which if I had to context switch between things, there would be a buffer period of like 30 minutes of me just staring at the screen where nothing happened. But I'm like mentally preparing to get into that place to do the next thing. I don't have that luxury anymore. So like I said, if I can get into flow, I need to stay in it, and I really need to stay in this place. And I think that's actually probably net good for output anyway, is to like, reduce context switching. There's research around this. So I do increasingly find myself looking at my calendar. And Mal and I on a weekly basis now we look in for the week ahead. It's like, all right, this block of time's yours. This block of time's mine, yours, mine, yours, mine. And that helps me look at those large blocks and be like, okay, I know I gotta write a newsletter, I know I gotta record a podcast. I know I need to work on the book. Which one of these blocks is gonna be that? And it's mostly like day to day. I'll have days where it's like, this is a writing day, this is a recording day, this is a book day. This is a, like, lab day. But actually the, the lab is more. I, I fit that into smaller blocks of time that can't really accommodate deep work or creation because by nature that's a lot more reactive. And I can get into that pretty quickly because we've worked to this point to have knowledge and I can react to things and be pretty efficient with that. But it's, it's a generative new idea, creative work that is increasingly hard to find time for and needs to be separated day to day.

B (41:48)

The reactionary lab work you do, do you save this to like the end of the day or just when you have time, when it hits you, do you start with it to get that outta the way and build some momentum?

A (41:58)

No, it's not a bad idea though. I could try that. The thing is, like, I am an hour in the morning is worth three, maybe four hours later in the day for me. And so if I can get the morning. Some days I'm doing creative work, uh, the lab, I'll often like, it'll be like after the baby goes to bed, while we're watching TV or something, I can, I can dip into that. Or if I have like a period of time between like a day of calls. Wednesdays are basically wall to wall calls and my, my mother in law comes over and helps. So sometimes I'll have like 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 60 minutes between two calls and it's like, what do I do with this? I have no expectation I'm gonna get anything done today, but here we are. And if I've already eaten lunch for the day, I might jump into the Lab and answer DMs and answer questions and things like that.

B (42:49)

What are your. Do you have a pretty harsh call schedule now? I know you've talked about really reeling that in. I think you're doing less one on ones in the lab. If I heard you say recently, what's, what's your call schedule like now?

A (43:00)

It's not too bad. It's mostly, it's mostly Wednesdays. So basically I make my calendar open Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday to calls. But specifically Tuesdays and Thursdays are typically interviews and Wednesdays are coaching calls, welcome calls, community calls. I'll sometimes do community calls on Tuesdays and Thursdays as well, but Wednesday is definitely the heaviest. I'll sometimes have like morning till bedtime calls on Wednesday. Tuesdays and Thursdays tend to be lighter and then Monday and Friday totally open. It's just like what block of time will I have the baby? What block of time will be my creative time? Um, but yeah, I've eliminated a lot of calls. Things that I haven't eliminated are almost exclusively community related. It's like welcome calls, VIP coaching calls, live sessions, Then I have interviews on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I have a meeting with my editor for the book once a week. And I suppose sometimes I have like just one on one, like get to know you or opportunistic calls. I used to have a ton of those. I used to do like 10 one on one, just like coffee chats a week. When I was, when I was getting started, just getting to know people and then, you know, I was doing the masterminds before I was doing the community. And so I needed to meet people that could potentially someday be a fit for this. I almost do none of that now. Basically none. It's, it's. I feel like I want to have more time for it, but if someone's like, hey, can I introduce you to this guy? He really wants to talk about this thing. It's hard for me to be like, yeah, in this season. In the season. It's hard for me to be like, yeah, let's, let's talk about that. It's very, very hard.

B (44:49)

Well, you and I went to a recent event together, an entrepreneurial event with some great guys. Like, it was really cool event and stuff and I. A few of them reached out afterwards, but I kind of found myself doing that too where I was like, ah, especially when it comes to in person, I'm like, I just right now in the season, I know an in person meeting, like if they want to say let's meet up for coffee for half an hour, I know that's probably two to three hours. Realistically, yes. And I just, yeah, it really, it, you know, like it does become such a hard ROI thing, you know, it's interesting.

A (45:24)

I find that I have a better set of social relationships than I used to though, because I go for a walk every day and I sometimes have to drive places. So I just call people without warning a lot more frequently than I used to. So it's not a thing on my calendar that I look at and I'm dreading or orienting my day around. It's like I'm out for a walk and I feel like I could talk to somebody and I'll just call somebody. Sometimes I end up calling like five people and a lot of times people don't answer and I leave a message. It's like just thinking about, you don't need to call me back. But it's, it's been great and it doesn't feel like there's anything on my calendar because it wasn't on my calendar. Of course I can't expect people just to call me in the most convenient of times. So I'm calling people when it's literally convenient for me in that moment.

B (46:10)

Are these, they don't have to. Are these close friends or do you do like audio? Because I've thought about doing that more recently, which is like on a walk. I might, I have done this occasionally. I might. This is a good challenge to do it more, which is like I'm thinking about this pro member. I might send them an audio message real quick.

A (46:24)

I think both, I think both are great. I. I'm. I'm mostly calling close friends or like kind of a layer out, I suppose. But yeah, I think whoever you feel like you want to touch base with or talk to, I think that's great. Or you could just like rip off a bunch of voice memos. Like you could do any of those things. And it doesn't feel, again, like it's, it's an obligation on my calendar. I only do it when I, when it feels convenient. And some people will say like, well, not very nice to like, call people at your convenience. How do you know that someone on the other end is not busy? Because they're busy. Don't answer. And if they answer and they sound busy, I say, is this a good time? And if not, they don't have to talk to me. It's fine.

B (47:03)

Tell me about this season of know you're entering. You mentioned earlier this is the last interview you're doing for a little while. So is this based off of just all these challenges we've unpacked as a whole, or is there something in particular that you're needing room for?

A (47:16)

It's, it's the book. It's assuming that the book will continue moving forward and that I will need to create those big blocks of time which will displace other things. And, you know, I have an interview podcast also, and sometimes I'll reach out to folks. One in particular, I don't think you would mind me saying this on All White Wood. I've reached out to Lenny Rachitsky a couple of times to get him on the podcast, and every time he's been very gracious and he's like, listen, there's no greater benefit than me just making my own podcast. And it's like, you know, you're right. Like, I can't, I can't disagree with you for that. And that's increasingly how I feel about a lot of things too. It's like I could spend an hour doing this or I could spend an hour building my business. And that's probably going to have a greater long term compounding outcome. So I'm at least getting more choosy. But I'm, I'm more and more just choosing myself as a client, my business as my priority. And that's a, that's a tough conclusion to come to as an interviewer. But.

B (48:23)

Well, the good news is, pro tip for anyone doing interviews, if you're early on is like, I told you, Jay, like, take this. If you want to take the audio, make clips out of it so you don't need to do the voice memos next week on a walk, go for it. That has certainly helped. I know when I had Chris Doe on recently, I made that a biggie about it. And I think that helped with him, you know, spending the hour with me.

A (48:43)

On that for sure. Because as an interviewer, if you look at your transcript, you're probably talking 10 to 20% of the time and usually asking a question, not delivering, like, a thought. So in this circumstance where I'm spending a lot more time talking, being able to say, like, okay, let's get that recording and clip that up into something we can put on Instagram, that's valuable to me in this season because I am also not thinking, like, what should I talk about? You're very much leading that. That discussion.

B (49:11)

This was probably a couple years ago, Jay. One of the last times we chatted, it was off recording. And I think you're cool with me saying this. Probably. But you're like, sometimes I just want to blow my business up. And on the outside, your revenue was growing beautifully. It just looked like you had everything in the world. And then you told me that it was a good reminder for me that sometimes the revenue and monetary success, what you don't see is just all the boring, hard work that is going into that. And that was pre kiddo too. Pre little Klaus baby. So are you still feeling that at all, or do you feel like you've passed? You're like, I'm just ready to blow it. Oh, okay.

A (49:45)

All the time. I don't know that I'm ever not, like, halfway to pushing the self destruct button, but I think, I mean, I've talked to a lot of business owners. It's super common. And most people do blow it up and start over. I was talking to a friend about that this week, because if you look at, I mean, the great thing about entrepreneurship is this is the way generational wealth is created. Like, if you, if you aspire to have the highest levels of financial success that you could imagine, entrepreneurship is how that happens. And if you look at the growth of successful companies, it's typically an exponential growth curve where it's in the beginning, it actually looks linear or flat for a very long time, and then it hits the curve and it goes vertical. And the problem with a lot of entrepreneurs or aspiring entrepreneurs is they get bored and they blow it up before it hits that corner, that corner. And they start something new and they start the process all over again so they never end up reaping the benefits, the tail end of an exponential growth curve. So, yes, I'm constantly like, I want to blow this up because I get bored with things, but that would restart the clock, so to speak. And in a world where we've never had more uncertainty. AI is eating into everything. The barrier to entry on all things is lowered. Your advantage to some degree is your time in market. Like, it's hard for somebody to build what I have built over eight years right now. But if I started something new, I could absolutely be out competed pretty quickly because I have less time than ever. So it does not make sense for me to self destruct. I think there's an argument to be made sometimes of like, I have an idea and I'm going to just like, like the book. This book is essentially side project right now. I'm going to keep working on it and see if I get signals that this is promising. But there's a world where the book does really well and that opens up a larger future than the current business. And if that is true, maybe I reevaluate some things, but I'm not going to jump without a parachute. That's like already out.

B (52:08)

Have you had. Well said. Have you had anything over the past few years other than the book? Because the book sounds like, yes, it'll help grow Creator Science, but it is potentially its own thing that could lead to a much more broad entrepreneur type of, you know, exposure for you. Is there anything else in the past few years that you've dipped your toe into secretly or publicly? Like, for example, I did some videos for Circle last year and they really popped off for Circle. It's actually been like a nice little steady, you know, recurring affiliate stream for me and I got a lot of requests for Circle help and community building help. And I would love to do that because I love sharing what I'm doing right now. But because I've been an entrepreneur for 16 years now. I know, just was what you said. If I derail myself, I'm essentially starting from scratch in the community building world. And then I'm up against you and a ton of others and Tom Ross and others who are like, you know, teaching the community side of things. And I'm all about coopetition, but like, I don't have the time or stomach to like do that right now. And I'm still trying to continue to stabilize Web Designer Pro and grow it to a certain level. So I've had. That's been like the hardest thing for me personally. The challenge has been like reeling myself in and not allowing myself to dive into this other passion thing. I'd love to do anything like that on your end over the past few years or have you been able to do new stuff under Creator Science?

A (53:42)

The things that I typically Start and stop are new products within the creator science umbrella. So there's, there's, there's a new offer that I've been thinking about making some progress towards for over a year now. And sometimes I'm just like, why do I not just finish this and launch this?

B (54:01)

The creator school?

A (54:03)

Well, that's one of them. That's, that's another one. There's so, so too. There's, there's a world where I, I build creator school. There's a world where I make a product around signature products. So another very meta thing. But the lab is just so successful that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to put my attention elsewhere versus just continue to compound the great thing that we spent four years building there. And then I get into like, I'm.

B (54:37)

Sure you've thought about this. Could it be a course or 100 in the lab?

A (54:41)

Yeah, 100%. Um, but unless I make that like the core value proposition, there have just been other priorities to do even within the lab than that thing.

B (54:55)

It would be ironic to have a signature product course that is not your signature product exactly like the lab.

A (55:04)

It's like, hey, I think every creator should have a signature product. I'm going to teach you how to do that. By the way, the lab is my signature product. Well, why did you make a course about signature products then? So it's there, there's like, there's logical fallacies with it, but it's the number one thing people want from me. Right?

B (55:19)

Yeah, I like it. Of all the things you're working on, I mean, I'm excited about the book from what I know about. But the signature product thing, I think that's also a very needed thing in the market. I feel like, I mean there's all, you know, like there's the $100 million offers and there's a lot about having, you know, your main offers. But I haven't personally run across too much that has the verbiage of signature product.

A (55:43)

And most, most people are hammers with a very specific nail. And so the way I think about products is like I'm wildly open to the form factor and I think based on the design of your business, the overall premise of your work, like I can't tell you that you should have a course, maybe you should have a done for you service, maybe you should have a membership, maybe you should have. All form of things are possible. And so the idea with this is helping you identify which form factor makes the most sense, how to position it, how to price it, how to validate it, ultimately how to build it and launch it. But that's a huge scope and would need a lot of development time to do it to the standard that I do things. And that is new, generative creative work, which is pulling from an already exhausted energy source that's currently creating newsletters, podcasts, YouTube videos, and a book. It's just like, really hard to be, like, where in my week do I have a day to make this the signature product day? And am I willing to cut the amount of. Cut the speed of the book in half to take away half of that time? So that's where. That's the type of thing that I get stuck on a lot. I did talk to somebody one time who had a really good point. I said, you know, I don't know that I'll be the creator for creator guy forever. I will probably at some point start something new, and when that eats this business, I'll switch to that. And he said, well, if and when you had really high conviction around what your next thing would be, it's actually just a very high opportunity cost not to devote all your. All of your resources to that new thing immediately because you can grow it faster and then all of that compounds. That's a really, really good point, but I don't have that level of conviction on something.

B (57:41)

Yeah, I've experienced that firsthand. When I sold in transit in 2020, I just. I guess the word I didn't realize I had stumbled onto was conviction. I just felt like if I'm going to do this course creator thing, I just, it's in my nature to just go all in, for better or for worse. And I was like, I just can't run two businesses. I don't know how people do it. Maybe they're just not close with their kids, I don't know. But, like, I just could not do it. So. Yeah, hear, hear to that.

A (58:08)

Yeah, yeah, It's. It's like not close to your kids or sometimes people are really good at resourcing their business and getting things out of their hand. And I have never been good at that. It's a big struggle for me because I think even the business today could be much, much bigger if I was willing to take a little bit more risk and hire people and team build. But that's a, That's a new skill set, which again, will take some resources from me. And it's, it's. It's a matter of priorities and sequencing and the risk is thinking about all this stuff so much that you're not actually doing anything. So there have been periods this year where I've. I've spent so much time like thinking and analyzing and planning and considering that just nothing was happening.

B (58:54)

Have you thought more about ads? You have similar. You and I both have very discoverable warm methods of outreach to new people. Have you thought about more ads and cold traffic to what you have in place to just extend visibility for your brand and your face and your name?

A (59:13)

I do, but this is a selfish.

B (59:17)

Question by the way, because I'm on the brink of rolling this out.

A (59:20)

I don't really have the, the assets in place to do that strategy effectively because my perspective, if I were to.

B (59:31)

Do you have the courses for the lab right Course only tier?

A (59:34)

I do, but from what I see, the people who are doing that game really, really well have a pretty low priced offer of some kind that then the very obvious next step is the next highest priced offer. I don't have something that's in like the 19 to 29 range that leads nicely into the lab or creator HQ cold traffic. It just, it doesn't buy higher price things. You would spend so much money getting a lead that's that qualified and it's probably going to be somebody that you're retargeting. Um, and so I feel like I would need to create net new assets at the lower end of my product suite for that to work. And then I had to figure out like the economics and the ad creative and maybe I'm hiring somebody to do that. So it just quickly spins into this thing where it's like this is a large product that or large project that I probably have to devote a month to to get up and running and what's that coming at the expense of? So I, I'm just constantly walking back ideas like this to you know, the lab works and people like it and I know there are more people in my current audience who would be a good fit. Maybe I should send five direct messages to people who would be a good fit. You know, like if I'm trying to get people into the membership ultimately and it's like maybe I should do a low price product and make that new and then figure out the ads product to get or maybe I should reach out to people who I've identified through their activity and email would be a good fit and say have you thought about this? Do you want to talk about it?

B (61:22)

Well if I end up rolling this out, I'll definitely do a little experiment in the lab and keep people my one angle with it is instead of creating new social content as much, which I don't do that much anyway, but I would almost rather create something that could be an ad, even if it's to the warm audience, even if it's to members of Pro or maybe folks who have left for any reason and may consider rejoining is to just stay more top of mind with content that I create once and just get out in front of people over the span of 30, 60, 90 days. That's my biggest reason for it. So I'm thinking hard about that.

A (61:59)

I've seen a lot of people do it, and if I had the assets created, I would feel comfortable hiring an agency to help me get the campaign set up and run them. But yeah, what I've seen from folks who are doing it really well and not only ultimately getting sales, but building their email list, it's the right type of person. It seems like they are selling a 19 to 29, something that maybe live, maybe a live challenge. Justin Moore has actually turned a corner on this in a really compelling way. And now he, he's like running an ads campaign that pays for itself, that gets people to a webinar and then a large number of those people convert to coaching customers for his, his coaching membership. And that is beautiful. But that at least means that I'm running a live challenge the way he is for some period of time, which is another time commitment. So it's, it's hard when I see so many business models and things that can work and it's like, I could do any of these. Of course I could. I'm very cap. I'm very capable, I'm very smart, I have resources. But what games am I going to play in the season? What games do I want to get good at? Because like it's, you can show up and play and have fun or you can say, I'm going to compete here. And increasingly I'm drawing the line of if I'm going to play a game, it's because I want to compete and I can't compete in all of them with my current resource constraints.

B (63:38)

That right there, Jay, is wisdom, my man, from a decade of doing this. That is, that is not knowledge. That is wisdom. Yeah, man. Here, here. And I'll make sure I link that interview with Justin. That was a great chat. I did listen to that. Was that two. That was 272, right?

A (63:55)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. We, we actually, that is not the latest information. We were going to record something new, but we haven't yet.

B (64:01)

Okay.

A (64:02)

Because that, that basically Was like here was my first pass at doing this and it was cash flow positive. He has since done it again and it was like 2x as of.

B (64:11)

Oh, okay. Well, we, we're, we're pretty far out on podcast right now, so depending on when that comes out, I'll, I'll make sure to that we get the right one linked up because yeah, that actually what, what perked my interest in that. And maybe I'll talk to Justin about that because he's going to be coming on soon. I think that would work really well for web designers in particular. Like that in particular is like a great lead in strategy that could do things in a group style setting without doing a bunch of one on one discovery calls.

A (64:39)

Yeah. And I think your membership is set up better for it than the lab is because the lab is so distinctly peer to peer in a lot of ways. Like we don't have this very linear. Here are the very specific skills you need and here's the set of courses that are going to get you there. And increasingly it's like less and less around coaching from me. So, you know, for him it's like you're trying to get your first sponsorship. This challenge is going to run and help you get that sponsorship. And by the way, if you like this, you should just work with our team on sponsorship, coaching and similar. You could run a similar challenge where it's like we're going to help you get your first web design client, your next web design client. And if you like this, you should join our coaching membership where we're going to help you do more of the same. I think that would work really well.

B (65:24)

That is of big interest. When's that chat coming out? Did you guys already record that chat?

A (65:27)

We haven't recorded it, we haven't even scheduled it. Just message. Justin, can you talk to me about this? Yeah, yeah, we should. I should get back to him on that though.

B (65:38)

Well, speaking of schedules and constraints, I want to honor your time here. Jay. Dude, really great catching up though. I would have loved to have done this in person. I feel terrible I had to bail on the last couple opportunities with you. But yeah, dude, like I said, just pumped for you. Always learning from you and I am excited that my audience of web designers, it's interesting to see how absorbent they are of your stuff. It proves to me that all web designers are entrepreneurs, whether they realize it or not. They're all making content, they're all getting clients, they all have an offer, they're all figuring out pricing, they're all balancing community relationships. So to all I see.

A (66:17)

I'm glad to hear it. I mean, if I were to leave them with anything, if this is still on the recording, I was going to.

B (66:23)

Ask for a final thought. Go for it. Yeah.

A (66:25)

If they want to get off of the time for money train, you need to hire yourself as your own client. You need to take your own work seriously and probably like, should be your best, most creative time. To say, like, I'm going to forego a whole client worth of revenue and time and that is strictly me. If you don't do that, you're just, you're just slowing down that curve.

B (66:54)

Well said. Great way to end it, Jay. Till the next one, man. Till round five when I send you a jacket that was recorded so it's on record.

A (67:03)

It's happening.

B (67:05)

All right, my friend, I hope you enjoyed this one. Again, the show notes for this episode are going to be at Joshhall Co 408. Be sure to connect with Jay. I highly, highly, highly recommend tuning into his podcast. It's called Creator Science. It is a YouTube and audio show. It is one of my only, actually, probably, dare I say my only rarely missed weekly listens. It is just so dang good. And Jay is such a great interviewer and it's in the name. He is a scientist at heart. So he is finding out what is working well today. So I know it's going to help you as you create content, grow your web design business. The podcast, the newsletter, everything you need is over@creatorscience.com so go check that out. Go follow Jay, tell him you heard him on the web design business podcast and how much you enjoyed this episode and congratulate him for being our most repeated guest to date. If you would. All right, my friend, stay subscribed. We got some good ones ahead. Cheers and I'll see you at the show notes for this one. Joshhal Co 4 08.