CREATOR SCIENCE WITH JAY CLOUSE
Episode #297: Joy Sullivan — How She Built A Living As A Writer On Instagram and Substack
Date: March 17, 2026

Overview

This episode features a candid and insightful conversation between Jay Clouse and poet/writer Joy Sullivan. Joy shares her journey from quitting her corporate job to becoming a full-time artist who built a thriving business off her writing—primarily through Instagram, Substack, and her paid community, Sustenance. The discussion explores the realities and nuances of building a writing career in the digital age, the tension between art and audience, platform strategies, and the importance (and cost) of creative authenticity.

Joy offers a deeply honest look into her creative and business processes, her values as a poet, and the deliberate choices she makes for sustainable growth, fulfillment, and community.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Modern Landscape for Writers

• Platform Demands and New Pressures
  Joy details the shifting expectations writers now face: not only do they need a “whole package” for publishers (great manuscript, marketable personality, evidence of sales potential), but they also have to master the art of audience-building—often at odds with the interior, craft-focused inclinations of poetry and art.

  “It’s a lot to ask of a writer, especially those folks with a creative brain. So I am full of empathy for writers who are embarking on this because it’s intense out there.” — Joy Sullivan (02:49)

• Poetry vs. Nonfiction in Platform-Building
  Joy’s community serves poets and lyrical essayists—a subset that doesn’t fit easily into the how-to/tip-driven world of most educational nonfiction creators. Instagram, despite being visual, has surprisingly proven a generative home for her poetic writing.

2. Instagram as a Writer’s Platform

• Breaking Conventional Wisdom
  While most writers are drawn to text-based platforms, Joy’s success came on Instagram through long-form writing in carousel posts—defying the video-first trend.
  “Now I publish my substack essays, seven slides on Instagram, and people read it and people share it, and sometimes it goes viral.” — Joy (05:20)

• Emotional Heft and Creative Tension
  Joy speaks to the “spiritual struggle” of creating work rooted in personal truth and craft, while platforms reward mass appeal. She recounts why she no longer sells Instagram strategy courses:
  “I felt that it was unethical to ask artists to approach their craft and their own visibility that way.” — Joy (07:06)

3. Navigating Craft vs. Performance

• Personal Mantras for Balance:

  • “Be a poet, not a preacher.” (08:21)
    Focus on articulating complexity and nuance rather than dispensing didactic value or endless tips.
  • “My vulnerability is not social currency.” (08:21)
    Maintain boundaries around personal stories and recognize where sharing deep vulnerability serves art, not just audience engagement.

• Audience Selection as Self-Definition

  “Who do I actually want to bring into my inner world, who do I want to attract as my audience? Because it’s going to fundamentally on a soul level, it’s going to shape me as an artist.” — Joy (10:40)

• The Trap of Chasing Numbers

  “If I’m always after more numbers, I actually think that’s like a gamble that doesn’t pay off. There is no amount of followers that would ever pay off the amount of sacrifice you’d have to make as an artist.” — Joy (11:30)

4. Sustainable and Authentic Growth

• Building “Slow and Chewy” Art
  Joy argues for investing deeply in skill and personal fulfillment over immediate audience growth or monetization. She encourages creators to resist platform incentives for “palatable” or “trend-chasing” content.

• The Visibility Dilemma (The “Medusa Problem”)

  “I don’t know that we are meant to withstand the level of visibility that these platforms require of us. And they are toxic systems that are designed to keep us plugged in and addicted.” — Joy (15:53)
  She invokes Medusa from Greek mythology as a metaphor for the paralyzing, sometimes destructive, gaze of social media attention.

• Boundaries and Mental Health
  Joy keeps Instagram off her phone, only using the desktop version to control her exposure and protect her creative boundaries.

5. Teaching, Community, and Leadership

• Be a Facilitator, Not a Guru

  “My secret power as a leader and a community builder is that I get to say ‘I don’t know’ all the time.” — Joy (21:19)
  Joy structures her business model (and teaching style) around collective wisdom and inquiry, not rigid blueprints.

• Rejecting Performative Certainty
  Jay reflects on how certainty sells, but both share skepticism of anyone who claims to have “the answer”:

  “Certainty collapses our ability to be nuanced. And I actually think that’s what our world needs the most right now.” — Joy (23:53)

6. Platform-Specific Strategies

• Instagram vs. Substack
  Joy feels personally more attached but also more addicted to Instagram; however, she believes Substack is healthier for her as an artist due to its slower pace and deeper reader engagement. (26:13)

• Monetization Learnings
  Joy made ~$60K/year from Substack at her peak with a blend of paid essays and quarterly workshops, but realized this model siphoned energy from her next book project.

  “I needed to recalibrate my metabolism around only being able to write when I was going to have the immediate gratification of posting.” — Joy (27:22)

• Community and Teaching
  Joy makes most of her living from her paid community and teaching—not directly from her books or writing. She encourages creators to seriously reflect on whether they want their art to be tied to income, due to the pressure and creative tradeoffs involved.

7. Experimentation and Iteration

• Don’t Monetize Too Early

  “If you turn on paid subscriptions right away, you lose the ability to iterate and experiment in a really simple, safe playing field.” — Joy (34:04)
  She advises creators to “play” for a year before charging on Substack or similar platforms and prioritize experimentation.

8. Instagram and Substack Workflow (Content System)

• Content Repurposing
  Joy writes longform essays on Substack, tests which segments resonate, then pulls out highlights for Instagram carousels—using brief, self-contained slides, designed through Canva, with the aid of an assistant. (37:11)

• Driving Platform Cross-Pollination
  Instagram serves as a discovery engine for her Substack, but only when carousels open with an “interesting hook” and direct users with a final slide to her Substack.

• On Effective Carousels:

  “Each slide has to be self-contained or engaging enough that people keep swiping… People have an appetite for interesting, complicated work on there. You just have to write it in short form.” — Joy (40:31)

9. Vulnerability and Boundaries in Sharing

• Scars vs. Scabs
  Joy endorses the writing advice to “share your scars, not your scabs,” cautioning against publishing from inside raw wounds and advocating for patience and perspective.

• Authenticity vs. Market Pressure
  Joy is transparent about her continuing struggle:

  “I’m in real time sort of grappling with what is it going to cost me to become a content writer.” — Joy (45:21)

10. Publishing and the Writer’s Path

• Lessons from Traditional Publishing
  Joy is proud of her traditionally published poetry book but recognizes the tradeoff; mass-appeal poems took up space that could’ve gone to more personally resonant, craft-focused work. For her second book, she’s prioritizing depth and complexity.

• Traditional vs. Self-Publishing
  Joy values her Big Five experience, but doesn’t consider it the only or best path for all writers, especially poetry. She encourages openness to nontraditional models, contests, or even serialized Substack releases.

11. Platform Evolution and Cautions

• Substack’s Evolution Concerns
  Joy laments the influx of clickbait and AI-generated content, craving a return to Substack’s original differentiator from social media.

  “I would make them stop supporting white supremacists and Nazis by some of their very lax content guidelines. But out of that, I would ask Substack to reassert kind of the differentiator that it initially was, that it wasn’t social media.” — Joy (49:35)

12. Core Advice for Aspiring Writers

• Fall in Love With Craft Before Chasing Platforms

  "The biggest piece of advice I’d give to a writer is before you worry about platforms, before you worry about visibility or readership, fall deeply in love with your own craft and develop an insatiable appetite for your own excellence on the page.” — Joy (50:37)
  Artistic energy should be spent on creative evolution and truth-telling, not external validation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Be a poet, not a preacher.” — Joy Sullivan (08:21)
• “My vulnerability is not social currency.” — Joy Sullivan (08:21)
• “Who do I actually want to bring into my inner world, who do I want to attract as my audience?... It’s going to shape me as an artist.” — Joy Sullivan (10:40)
• “There is no amount of followers that would ever pay off the amount of sacrifice you’d have to make as an artist.” — Joy Sullivan (11:30)
• “I don’t know that we are meant to withstand the level of visibility that these platforms require of us.” — Joy Sullivan (15:53)
• “Certainty collapses our ability to be nuanced.” — Joy Sullivan (23:53)
• “You would be amazed… People have an appetite for interesting, complicated work on [Instagram]. You just have to write it in short form.” — Joy Sullivan (40:31)
• “Do I want to make what I love pay my bills?” — Joy Sullivan (32:26)
• “I would be more mindful. I would recognize my vulnerability to social media and visibility a lot faster.” — Joy Sullivan (46:55)
• “Before you worry about platforms… fall deeply in love with your own craft and develop an insatiable appetite for your own excellence on the page. Otherwise, just do copy, just do content.” — Joy Sullivan (50:37)
• “Time rarely makes anything worse.” — referencing Maggie Smith (43:36)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:49] — The new landscape and pressures for writers
• [05:20] — Succeeding on Instagram as a writer
• [08:21] — Joy’s core mantras: “Be a poet, not a preacher” & “My vulnerability is not social currency”
• [10:40] — On audience selection shaping the artist
• [15:53] — The struggle of artistic wellbeing under social media gaze (the “Medusa” metaphor)
• [21:19] — “I don’t know” as leadership—modeling uncertainty in teaching/community
• [23:53] — Why certainty is a red flag in the creator economy
• [26:13] — Substack vs. Instagram for writers
• [27:22] — Monetization and its creative cost
• [32:26] — The dangers of making art your main source of income
• [34:04] — Advice: don’t monetize too soon; prioritize experimentation
• [37:11] — Content workflow: from Substack essay to Instagram carousel
• [40:31] — Making Instagram carousels engaging for writers
• [45:21] — Ongoing tension: content writer vs. artist
• [46:55] — What Joy would do differently in publishing
• [49:35] — Desired changes to Substack’s policies and focus
• [50:37] — Closing advice: “Fall deeply in love with your own craft…”

Takeaways for Listeners

1. Prioritize craft; audience growth is secondary and should never compromise your creative integrity.
2. Control your relationship with platforms—use them as tools, but don’t let their incentives dictate your creative output.
3. Experiment and find your voice before monetizing; sustainable income for artists often comes from community or teaching, not viral hits or subscriptions alone.
4. Maintain boundaries around vulnerability; share from experience, not from fresh wounds.
5. Slow, considered work with a clear personal voice can stand out, even (or especially) in a crowded, fast-paced digital landscape.

For more from Joy, visit joysullivanpoet.com or connect with her on Instagram @joysullivanpoet.