#314: Getting Unstuck: The Three Hidden Roadblocks Blocking Your Progress with Cat Mulvihill

Summary

Podcast Summary: Creator Science with Jay Clouse

Episode #314: Getting Unstuck—The Three Hidden Roadblocks Blocking Your Progress with Cat Mulvihill
Original air date: August 4, 2026
Guest: Cat Mulvihill

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Overview

In this episode, Jay Clouse is joined by Cat Mulvihill—speaker trainer, accountability coach, and licensed Immunity to Change facilitator—to discuss the three hidden roadblocks that often prevent creators from following through: logical, biological, and psychological blocks. Drawing from Cat’s experience as a high-achieving creator recently diagnosed with ADHD (and the development of her Momentum Formula), the conversation dives deep into diagnosing the real source of getting stuck and practical strategies to overcome each barrier. Notably, Cat places special emphasis on often-overlooked biological factors—energy, environment, and brain chemistry—that can profoundly shape productivity and motivation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Distinction Between the Three Roadblocks

(Starts ~04:14)

Cat explains her realization that the advice for creators is often split into “skills/system” vs. “mindset.” Her diagnosis with ADHD revealed a third dimension—biology (energy, brain chemistry, bodily state)—which is distinct from psychology (mindset/beliefs).

• Logical Blocks: Lack of skills, tools, or information.
• Biological Blocks: Brain chemistry (like dopamine), physical health issues (sleep, blood sugar), energy, and environment.
• Psychological Blocks: Mindset, beliefs, or fears—often hidden beneath the surface.

"Sometimes we don’t take action because of our brain, our body, our energy, even our environment... sometimes it’s your biology, sometimes it’s your circumstances, but it’s not either [logic or mindset]." —Cat Mulvihill (05:11)

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2. Diagnosing Where You’re Stuck

(09:44 – 12:34)

Cat recommends a simple stepwise approach to diagnosis:

1. First, check for logical issues: Do you have the skills, plan, and tools?
2. Second, consider biological factors: Look at energy, environment, brain, or physical state.
3. Third, address psychological roots: Only after ruling out the first two should you focus on mindset.

Indicators:

• Repeated issues despite having the plan & skills: Usually a biological or psychological block.
• Inability to use good systems: Immediate clue it's not logical, possibly biological or psychological.

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3. Real-Life Application: Creator Case Study

(12:34 – 15:14; Example thread throughout)

Cat shares examples from her community:

• A member knew they needed better operations, received many system/tool suggestions, but confessed, “Even when I have great systems, I still don’t use them.”
• Upon further exploration:
  • Biological: If tasks weren’t urgent, dopamine didn’t kick in.
  • Psychological: The person didn’t believe the operations work was a good use of time, revealing a mindset block.

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4. Accountability Styles: The Four Tendencies

(15:14 – 18:18)

Cat and Jay refer to Gretchen Rubin’s "Four Tendencies" to explain how people respond to expectations, both internal and external.

• Upholder: Meets both inner and outer expectations.
• Questioner: Meets inner, resists outer (asks “why”).
• Obliger: Meets outer, resists inner.
• Rebel: Resists both.

They note that knowing your tendency can inform your productivity strategies, particularly for the biological block.

"If I know I’m going to show up at a call today at 3:30 to talk to Jay, you better believe I’m going to be ready. But if it’s my own thing, it often gets pushed off." —Cat Mulvihill (16:22)

"For the rebel... doing the opposite of what people expect is not freedom." —Cat Mulvihill (18:18)

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5. The Hidden “Dreaded Identity” Trap

(20:04 – 22:53, 26:36 – 27:23)

Cat discusses the Immunity to Change framework’s concept of not just the identity you aspire to, but also a “dreaded identity” you unconsciously avoid:

• Example: A creator wants to publish on LinkedIn (“I want to be seen as a thought leader”), but subconsciously fears being perceived as a “sellout” or as hopping on a bandwagon.
• Often discovered by noticing your harsh judgments of others online: “This is my dreaded identity. I never want to be like this person.”

"A lot of traditional advice ignores the fact that we also have a version of ourselves that’s the dreaded identity or this dreaded image... That’s where I use the Immunity to Change process as a tool to uncover those hidden dreaded identities." —Cat Mulvihill (21:04)

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6. Solving the Biological Block—Practical Experiments

(29:30 – 31:54, 33:11 – 34:26)

Cat and Jay emphasize experimentation and observation of when your biology is supporting you (and when it isn’t).

• Energy management: Notice patterns—food, sleep, environment, time of day, presence of others.
  • Example: Cat discovered she cannot focus alone at home, but thrives in co-working situations.
• Tiny Experiments: Try changing meal composition, work times, or social media usage (e.g., “No social media until afternoon”) and observe results.
  • Inspired by Ann-Laure Le Cunff’s "tiny experiments" concept.

"You can start to guess what might be going on based on what you know about yourself... and you experiment." —Cat Mulvihill (29:54)

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7. Turning Tendencies into Tools, Not Excuses

(35:49 – 39:50)

Cat details how she mechanizes accountability:

• Going live with content creation (instead of pre-recorded) because real-time expectation compels her to deliver.
• Organizing group accountability or mastermind check-ins (especially for obligers).
• Being mindful of constraints (budget, comfort with public pressure).

"I record my content live... because I know I’m going to do it if even one person could be there waiting for me to go live; then I’ll do it." —Cat Mulvihill (38:32)

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8. Resources for Further Action

(40:05 – 41:21)

Cat recommends:

• The original (“pretty academic”) Immunity to Change book by Keegan and Lahey.
• The more accessible "Right Weight, Right Mind" by the same authors.
• Her own newsletter and upcoming virtual workshops (sign up via her website).

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9. Final Wisdom: Be Kind to Yourself and Use the Right Lens

(44:32 – 46:01)

Cat urges creators to drop the shame around needing support or more “external” tools and to treat external accountability like “putting on your glasses”—it’s just the tool your unique brain needs.

"I truly think that it is possible to overcome any of the roadblocks as long as you know that they exist... Some people need glasses, some people don’t. But I would never... judge someone because they need glasses to correct their vision." —Cat Mulvihill (44:32)

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Memorable Quotes

• "A lack of follow through doesn’t mean there's something wrong with you. It means that you’re trying to solve the wrong problem." —Cat Mulvihill (19:40)
• "Most of the time, we already know what to do. We're just not doing it. So let’s take a look at what’s really keeping you stuck here." —Cat Mulvihill (41:55)
• "We don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 11:30." —Cat Mulvihill, quoting SNL, on the power of external deadlines (38:23)
• "The psychological roadblocks... tend to be some of the most important, because if we have something that is holding us back and saying 'don’t go there, this is unsafe,' to actually overturn that... takes work, and it takes patience, but it's so worth it." —Cat Mulvihill (41:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:14] — Cat’s realization about the biological block and her ADHD experience
• [09:44] — Diagnosing roadblock order: logical, biological, psychological
• [12:34] — Recognizing patterns and mixed block examples
• [15:14] — Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies and accountability
• [21:04] — Dreaded identity in Immunity to Change
• [26:36] — How judgment of others can reveal your own fears
• [29:54] — Tiny experiments for energy and focus
• [33:11] — Observing what helps you thrive: environment, tools, timing
• [38:32] — Cat's live content creation for accountability
• [41:55] — The slow, deep work of overcoming psychological blocks

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Actionable Steps for Creators

• Self-diagnose your roadblocks in order:
  1. Logical (skills/information/tools)
  2. Biological (energy, brain/body, environment)
  3. Psychological (mindset, beliefs, hidden fears)
• Experiment with environment, timing, accountability, and observe what works.
• Lean into your tendency: Upholder, obliger, questioner, rebel—each has different motivators.
• Get support: Consider group, peer, or public accountability.
• **Explore Immunity to Change tools and workshops for uncovering hidden psychological blocks.
• Most importantly: Treat yourself with compassion, and remember that external help is a tool, not an excuse.

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For more:

• Visit katmulvihill.com for workshop info and resources (see show notes for direct links).
• For the Immunity to Change framework, see the book by Robert Keegan and Lisa Lahey, or their more accessible guide, Right Weight, Right Mind.

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(Summary prepared for those who want the deepest insights and practical takeaways—without replaying the whole episode.)

Transcript

[Kat Mulvihill]

For a lot of creators, there just might be this Are people going to think I'm a sellout? Are people going to think that I'm just jumping on a bandwagon? Are people going to take me seriously? So any of these negative reactions that could happen that can all add up to this dreaded identity?

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

Hello, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of Creator's Science. Two weeks ago, I published an episode with my wife sharing the behind the scenes of this year's Lab offline, powered by Circle. And in that episode I mentioned that the second most popular session of the whole event was an Immunity to Change workshop facilitated by my friend Kat Mulvihill. Kat has been a longtime member of the lab and I've learned a lot from her over the years. So when she reached out to me with an idea for an episode, I was excited to bring her on the show. Kat is a speaker trainer, accountability coach, and a licensed Immunity to Change facilitator. She has more than 20 years of experience leading workshops. After formally being diagnosed with ADHD in the spring of 2024, she developed the Momentum Formula, a framework centered on three roadblocks preventing follow through. Those are logical, biological and psychological. And she argues that the biological roadblock is the one that often gets missed when giving advice to creators. And she was right. I was like, that's something I haven't really thought about. That's what she shared with me ahead of this recording and that's why I brought her on the show today. That's what we're talking about, those three common roadblocks to follow through, logical, biological, psychological, and how to identify which one is currently in your way and then what to do about it. Kat periodically runs live workshops around Immunity to Change and the Momentum Formula. I think she has one coming up, so I've put links in the show notes for you to stay in the loop on those as well.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

We'll get to that full conversation with

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

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[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

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[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

thanks to Circle AI. Just visit Circle. So to start a free trial today, that's Circle. So

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[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

So you sent me a note that really opened my eyes and kind of intrigued me because anytime that I am made aware of a blind spot, I'm immediately like, ooh, I feel naked and I need to cover that. So you sent me a note and you, you basically said you've covered a lot on the show related to logical blockers, psychological blockers, but not biological blockers. And in my mind, I was like, wait, but biological, Isn't that your brain?

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

What's the difference?

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I just had a lot of uncertainty. So I'd love to hear how you think about these different forces and dig

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

into it a little bit.

[Kat Mulvihill]

Yeah. So I know that a ton of traditional advice that is out there, whether that's for creators, like listening to a podcast or reading books anywhere, where you are looking for advice for how to do something, something important that matters. For a long time, I was very much trapped in this idea that it's binary and that you either need to solve a problem with skill sets or systems, or you had to work on your mindset. And so when I reached out to you, I said, you've got great content about mindset, and you have great content about systems and how people put things into place so they can be successful. But what I found a couple of years ago is that I was stuck in this binary of, okay, I'm stuck, I'm not moving forward. Do I need to work on my skillset, or do I need to work on my mindset? And then one day it just struck me. And this was while I was going through a diagnosis for ADHD when I realized, hold on, it's brain chemistry, which is different than your mindset. So your mindset, this is psychology. I call it a psychological roadblock, where you have a fear or a hesitation, you're stopping yourself, and that's in the immunity to change. We look at that. And when you have a logical roadblock, this is when you're missing information, you're missing skills, or you just don't have the right tools. Those can all be solved logically. But sometimes we don't take action because of our brain, our body, our energy, even our environment can actually impact our ability to follow through on things. And I reached out to you because I know it's so, so common with creators and entrepreneurs, people who set out to run their own business, and they have the skills and they actually have the mindset, but then they're stuck. And for me, I used to call those paralysis days. Whereas I do not understand. And I would just kind of be circling, thinking, do I need to learn more? Do I need to work out my mindset? And then that's when I connected the dots and realized, sometimes it's your biology, sometimes it's your circumstances, but it's not either of those two.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I have kind of adopted the belief over the years that a lot of times my problems are literally just like the chemicals that are sloshing around and they're in the wrong proportion. And it's like, sometimes I just need to go for a walk. Sometimes I need to work out. But I have become slowly aware that, like, my brain chemicals just aren't working in conjunction with each other right now. Which sounds like what you're. What you're kind of suggesting. But, like, to me, that that can be very acute. Probably there are times when this is more chronic for folks. So what do we do with this? To what degree can we actually manage this? Does it require medication?

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

What is the answer here?

[Kat Mulvihill]

It's actually multifaceted. And for me, I just think, just like any problem that you need to solve, what is the actual issue for you? Because let's take an example of two people, and they are both struggling to follow through on something. And they have the skills, they've got the mindset. That's not an issue. But they're both struggling to initiate One person could be struggling to initiate because of dopamine. Maybe they have adhd, or maybe it just doesn't have that level of importance. Or it's important but not urgent. So they just don't have this. They don't have enough dopamine to kind of cross the threshold to initiate a task. But the other person could actually just have really low blood sugar and be tired because they didn't sleep properly. So it's still a physical thing that's happening, but it's not necessarily dopamine in our reward center. It could actually just be a mismatch of their actual energy. I also think about people with chronic illness who are dealing with the fact that they have real physical constraints that are happening to them. And so it depends on what's going on. I mean, you bring up medication. So I actually have a personal experience where when I was diagnosed with adhd, I used medication for about a year and a half. And I remember the first week of taking it, I thought, okay, hold on, is this how other people live? Is this how other people's brains are? That they can sit down and look at a to do list and just start doing the to do list? Because to me, that was completely foreign. I had no idea because my brain was functioning differently. And I look back at all those years, now I'm not currently on medication, that's for personal health reasons. But it was such an eye opening example of, oh, this makes a huge difference. But even not medication, some of the other strategies, like body doubling. So I don't know if you're familiar with body doubling. That's just the presence of another person who is working at the same time. Interesting. And I pre pandemic, so I left my job. I used to work at a University for 14 years. I left in 2019 and the first year was Rocky because I could not seem to focus at home. My spouse would leave for the day, go to work, and I just could not. So I started going out of the house. I'd go to coffee shops, I'd just find other places that helped me focus. And then when the pandemic happened and everything shut down, I genuinely believed I was in deep, deep trouble. Because I had this belief that I can't actually focus at home. I've never been able to focus at home. So how's this gonna work? And all of a sudden everyone's shut down, everyone's at home. And I just started getting full days of work done and thought, oh, I guess I was just really, really wrong. Until my spouse Went back to work and then all of a sudden the same thing happened. Me in an empty house. Much harder for my brain to focus. But as soon as I'm around other people who are doing work, it completely changes my ability to initiate tasks and focus on my work.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Okay, interesting. I'm trying to figure out where I want to take this because, well, my one thought is, how do I know when one of these problems is present and not the others? Meaning sometimes I probably am having a lack of skillset, sometimes I probably am having the wrong mindset. So if I'm feeling stuck, how do I diagnose which area is failing and then what do I do about it?

[Kat Mulvihill]

I really like to go in order of logical, biological and psychological reason being first. We just want to make sure, do you have all the tools to do the thing you're trying to do? Do you have the skill set? Do you have the right information? And if you have all of that in place, you've got a basic plan that is good enough for you to take action, but you're not taking action. Well, if the plan is complete, then move on. And then I would go to biological and just say based on I know about myself and how I am struggling. And this might be looking back at other experiences. So for example, my pandemic experience of knowing, okay, now I know that when I'm alone in a house, it's harder to concentrate. So I tend to say, okay, I'm going to try this plan, but do it with co working or have a group that meets up trying to use some of the strategies that I know are effective. And then if I'm continuing to hesitate, I'm not following through, I'm not taking action. That's usually a sign that you need to work on the mindset. And often, I mean, there are many examples where it is all three, but I like working on them in order. So you're sort of setting yourself up for success because sometimes you just are missing information or someone gives you a strategy and it just unlocks it and then you're fine, you have no trouble.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

The mindset thing is also a little tricky for me because some of these challenges are not fully solvable long term. Meaning, like there have been periods of my life where I have been more confident than I currently am, even though I would argue I had less reason to be more confident at that time. So it almost feels like I solved a confidence problem at one point and I had a more confident mindset. But now if I look at it, it's like actually I'm lacking a little bit of courage because I'm lacking a little bit of confidence. So I just don't know how to solve these things in the moment if I'm stuck. When I think about myself being stuck, usually I'm also, like, kind of fooling myself in some way. And it's hard for me to reason with my own brain to figure out, am I fooling myself, am I procrastinating? Like, how do I identify this and how do I fix it? So I like this progression of, okay, most of the time, it's either not a skill set issue or it's very obvious when it is a skillset issue. It's these other two that feel harder for me to correctly identify and then know how to action in that moment.

[Kat Mulvihill]

Yes. So, I mean, one of the giveaways or patterns that I think is helpful to look for is if you have a pattern. So if you are noticing over time that, okay, this is a thing I continue to struggle with and I know what to do, I know how to do it, and I'm not doing it, to me, that is signifying that it's probably not logical. You probably have the skills and know what to do, and you're not doing it. And so I think when it comes to the other two, it might be honestly a combination. And, you know, there's an example where someone in the lab, I'll keep it anonymous because I didn't ask for permission, but someone had posted publicly in the lab saying, hey, I'm having some. I need some help with operations, and maybe I need to hire someone. Maybe I need a new tool or system. And then there was one sentence in there, though, that clued me in that it might not be that simple or logical. So I said, even when I have great systems, I still don't use them. And to me, that is an immediate alarm bell of, okay, I think there's something going on. It's not just logical. And now when I saw people in the lab weighing in, they started giving advice of, oh, this is a tool that I really love for my operations, or I hired a va. And that made all the difference. I commented on the post, kind of saying, hey, I noticed you said that even when you have great systems in place, you're not using them. That makes me think maybe it's not just a practical solution. And we actually ended up hopping onto a call. And the more I just kind of asked some questions around, what are some of the roadblocks? What are the patterns that you're noticing when you're putting off this work. And it became clear that there's actually a combination going on of biological. So if there's no urgency, his brain just wasn't responding to it. It was important, but he could put off. So that was one big one that's biological. It's very common for people to put off things that are important but not urgent. And then the second thing was actually a mindset around the work itself. And he admitted, I actually don't think this is a good use of my time. And so as soon as I heard that, I realized, okay, you are not only putting it off because it's not urgent, but also you have a perspective on this work and you assume that if you're working on that, you are wasting your time because you should be working on other higher leverage things. And after that conversation, I got a message a couple weeks later just saying, holy, this changed everything. So instead of just hiring a VA or getting a new tool, actually addressing the mindset, but addressing also the biology of how do I actually make myself follow through on this. And there are multiple tools you can use, like accountability, different ways that you can make things a little bit more urgent. But at the core there were also some psychological things going on too.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I relate to that. I feel like a lot of times when I'm stuck, it's a lack of interest or curiosity or value that I place on the thing. And if that's paired with nobody else is expecting me to do it and I'm not letting anybody down, then that's a recipe for this thing is never getting done. I will constantly. You and I have talked about the four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin and I'm an obliger. I believe you're an obliger as well. And so I will constantly just make promises to people because I know the act of doing that will be the forcing function to do the thing. Because even if I'm not curious, if I'm not interested in doing it, the fact that I have committed to somebody else that I'm doing it means that I will follow through. I just know that's how my brain works.

[Kat Mulvihill]

I actually, I thought you were an upholder because I thought you were really good at being self directed and following through without needing other people.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm cosplaying as an upholder. Yeah, maybe I'm misremembering this. It is very much like if I do not have interest in something, but I know it needs to get done. I know if I Make a commitment to somebody else, I will do it. Which maybe that is upholding.

[Kat Mulvihill]

Well, so upholders. So for anyone who's not familiar, and I really recommend looking into it, but Gretchen Rubin came up with the four tendencies framework which essentially is all about how we react to expectations. So inner expectations, things you say you'll do. And then there are outer expectations where someone else is expecting it. And depending on how you respond you either kind of meet or resist in our nature or our tendency. And based on that there are four different types. So an upholder tends to meet inner expectations and they meet outer expectations. A questioner is someone who tends to meet inner expectations but they tend to resist outer expectations. So if they decide to do it, they do it. But if someone else says do it, they kind of their instinct is why are you asking me to do this? And then the obliger, the biggest group, and that's where I fall, is someone who tends to resist inner expectations but they meet outer expectations. So if I know I'm going to show up at a call today at 3:30 to talk to Jay, you better believe I'm going to be ready. But if it's my own thing, it often gets pushed off. And then the final group is the rebel. And the rebel tends to resist inner and outer expectations. Like don't tell me what to do, but I also don't want to tell myself what to do. And I think knowing how you respond to expectations is really powerful because you'll start to see those patterns. And it if you are an obliger who does tend to resist doing their own thing because no one's coming to check on it, no one else is hurt by it. So there are strategies you can use. And that's absolutely. I think an example that falls under the biological roadblock is if I just try to do everything interdirected knowing that that's just not how I'm wired, then it's a losing battle.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I believe she has a sort of enneagram system here where you can be mainly one, but there's a wing you can tip. Yeah, you can tip one way or the other. So I think I actually am an upholder but I tip obliger rather than tip questioner. I don't know how to help the rebels. That sounds very difficult.

[Kat Mulvihill]

I have a few rebels that I am very close to. And what does help, just for the record, in case we have any who are listening, is a rebel can tap into their identity and who they are. And so if they are a person who keeps their commitments follows through, then they're more likely to do it because there's a deeper meaning behind it. And ultimately what's on the other side is important to them. I think it's also really helpful for the rebel to remember that doing the opposite of what people expect is not freedom. Even though one of the things that drives a rebel is they want freedom, they don't want to be told what to do, they don't want to be restricted and yet always doing the opposite. Like as soon as someone expects it, they want to do the opposite. That's not freedom. And I think remembering that, that's a mindset thing around pausing and using discernment and deciding, no, no, I'm going to do what I choose to do, not just the opposite of what someone expects from me.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

So is your message to folks listening to this, let's say someone listening and they're perpetually stuck on something that they feel like I should be doing this. And so they're listening to this saying, okay, maybe it's not a skill set thing, maybe it's not a mindset thing, it's a biological thing. Is the message just, this might be a biological thing or are there some clear non pharmaceutical solutions to the biological problem?

[Kat Mulvihill]

Yeah, well, I mean it's twofold. One of my messages is just to. Even for me it was a huge unlock to just start categorizing the three ways I was stuck. And there are actually multiple examples and I can give a couple of examples of where I was just genuinely stuck on all three. But the other thing when it comes to biological. And I think why I reached out to you is I think there's a ton of shame at least I felt so much shame, especially being on my own as an independent creator, an educator. And I would watch all these people around me do the thing they're supposed to do. And these are things I want to do, I'm capable of doing. And I call myself an inconsistent high achiever. I am a high achiever. I am capable of a lot. I've shown that in the past. So when I'm not doing it, when I'm watching myself self sabotage and I would wonder what is going on, I just thought I'm broken, there's something wrong with me. And what I really want people to understand is that a lack of follow through doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It means that you're trying to solve the wrong problem. And what I see is a lot of people spend so much time trying to learn their Way out of a problem. Or they try to adopt what works for someone else, even though it does not work with how they're wired. Or when they focus on mindset, they're so focused on the desired identity that they want to be, and they're not actually looking at some of that hidden stuff of the person they're trying to avoid.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Say more about that.

[Kat Mulvihill]

Yeah. So traditional advice often looks at tap into the identity you want to be. So if we take writing, for example, instead of saying, I want to write every day, you say, I want to be a writer. And that's really powerful. Connecting to your why is really important. And so a ton of traditional advice talks about identity, and I think that's so important, and I applaud that. And a lot of traditional advice ignores the fact that we also have a version of ourselves that's the dreaded identity or this dreaded image. And it's this version, which is often subconscious or unconscious, where it's that person we don't want to be seen as. So what if I want to be a writer, but if I start publishing online, what will people think? Will people take me seriously? What if I post something and it goes wrong or I'm criticized? So maybe there are all these other things that are. They're causing you to stop, and those are psychological roadblocks, but often we don't even realize them. And that's where I like to use the immunity to change process as a tool to uncover those hidden dreaded identities that we're trying to avoid.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I would love to play this out a little bit. I mean, we did this at our offline event, and I know that 75 minutes is insufficient for what we're trying to do. And we're trying to now fit the same into an hour long podcast and a segment of that podcast. So I'm not asking us to go through the whole immunity to change framework, but I would love to play out this dreaded identity a little bit more because this was a unique new novel insight for me during this process. And I'm happy to role play this also, if that helps make the case.

[Kat Mulvihill]

Well, what I'd like to do maybe is give you an example of somebody working through all three roadblocks where they actually have all three, but we can spend a little time on the last one. Sure.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Great.

[Kat Mulvihill]

So LinkedIn, you and I know there are a lot of people who listen to your podcast who are either on LinkedIn or telling themselves they should be on LinkedIn. And I had a conversation with a colleague who Said, I know I should be on there, and every time I try, I just can't seem to make it stick. It just doesn't work for me, but I know I should be on there. So we went through an order and when they first described what they do, they just kind of log into LinkedIn and just let the feed tell them what to do. So I said, did you know that LinkedIn has a saved search function? And you and I both know this saved search function. It's a great little tip. Also, I think I still have a little tutorial of how to set it up, but essentially you can tell LinkedIn I want to follow these people, I want to follow these topics and save it. And so I showed him how to do that and he's like, mind blown, no idea. This was a feature and it's actually part of LinkedIn. And so this was suddenly starting to say, okay, this is solving a logical problem. When he would go on there, it just was a whole mess. He didn't know where to start. So that's a logical solution. Then we went to biological and I said, what time of day are you going on LinkedIn? And he said, it's either the start of the day or the end of the day and both don't work. And I had noticed for myself when I first started posting on LinkedIn a number of years ago, I was following the advice from all of the big names, saying, sign there around 8 or 8:30 in the morning. So I was starting my day on LinkedIn, posting, commenting, but I noticed that my brain then, it's sort of just hijacked by dopamine. So when I would try to shift to focused work, it was actually ruining my mornings, and my mornings are my most focused time. So there was actually, it was causing this mismatch for how my brain works and how I want my day to go. So then I started posting, I think right before lunch and just saying, you know what, I'll just pretend I live in a different time zone and that's my morning and just stop doing what everyone else is doing. And so he realized that both the morning and the end of the day were just bad fits. He wasn't engaged, his energy wasn't there. And so he was like, okay, maybe I can play around and experiment with other times of day that work with my energy, like my natural rhythms of the day. And then the third one, and this is very common on LinkedIn, is around this, you know, you've got this desired identity. I want to be someone who publishes My work, and I've got great ideas and I'm a thought leader. And so that's your desired identity. But on the other side, this dreaded identity could be things like, I have colleagues from my corporate days that are on there. And if I start suddenly posting, treating it like every other social media platform, instead of just posting job updates and anniversaries, what are people going to think? Or maybe there's a person that I'm worried if they see these posts, they're going to think differently of me. Or maybe it's going to harm a relationship. Or you could take somebody. Now, this person, they were completely independent. But I've spoken to people who are in current work situations and they're worried that if they start posting on LinkedIn, their boss is going to think they're jumping ship. Even if they are planning to jump ship, it's suddenly a signal. So that means that it's sort of this unsafe zone, so you can't be seen a certain way. Now, that one, the job example, that's just a true risk. And so maybe that person doesn't post about, maybe they're not trying to build a business while they're working full time. But I know for a lot of creators, there just might be this. Are people going to think I'm a sellout? Are people going to think that I'm just jumping on a bandwagon? Are people going to take me seriously? So any of these negative reactions that could happen that can all add up to this dreaded identity?

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Yeah. Are people going to think Rabbit hole is challenging? And also, most of the time, as soon as you say, are people going to think? The answer is no, because no one's actually thinking about you. But it's hard to internalize that.

[Kat Mulvihill]

It's hard to internalize that. And also, and also, I've done this exercise with clients before where I said, pay attention when you're scrolling. As soon as you see a person in their post and you have a negative reaction to it, notice that. And what is it about that post? And I've actually had people screenshot and they were like, this is my dreaded identity. I never want to be like this person. I think back to when Instagram, remember when everybody was pointing, they were dancing and pointing in the early days of reels. And I would see those and just think, am I going to be a person who points on Instagram? And I was having a negative reaction to the fact that everyone's pointing. And I would think, do I have to do that too? So when you notice your reaction to other people, then that actually is a good clue to maybe what you're avoiding being perceived as by others.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

We'll be right back to my conversation with Kat Melvihill after this quick break. Do you feel like the world has

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

gotten more competitive or that your work has gotten less fun? I certainly feel that way at times, and when I do, I have to remind myself to find the fun again. And I love this reminder from a podcast episode called Play Mode by my friend Ken Yarmish. Ken bootstrapped his professional services business to $5 million per year as a solopreneur, and he did it by systematically making small changes, like pitching six figure deals instead of five figure deals. He shares a lot of what he's learned on his podcast Grow Without Hiring. Every episode is short and tactical, like my voice memo episodes, and in each episode you get a little nudge to go make some meaningful changes to your business or behavior, things that will help you, well, Grow Without Hiring. Because these episodes are short and he often references other episodes within them, it's easy to fit them into your day and also know which episode to listen to next. Search for Grow Without Hiring in your podcast app or head to GWH fm. I recommend that episode I mentioned earlier, Play Mode or his episode titled the Chipotle Offer. Just search for Grow Without Hiring or visit GWH fm.

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[Kat Mulvihill]

Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy Mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

And now back to my conversation with Kat Mulvihill.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

You were talking about energy. So I have, as I've gotten older, embraced more of this idea of energy management over time. Management? Is energy just enthusiasm? Interest? Curiosity?

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

Is it dopamine?

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Like, you've said dopamine a few times as well. Am I secretly just ruled by dopamine? And is that what it means when I'm managing my energy well, I actually

[Kat Mulvihill]

come at it from multiple angles. As a person who's actually had multiple chronic autoimmune issues and different things that I've had to deal with in my life, I don't think it's just dopamine. I genuinely think there is a mix. And also, if you have ever changed your diet where suddenly you're eating more balanced meals, eating less sugar, and you're like, oh, wow, I have a lot more energy throughout the day, you'll also notice things like your blood sugar can impact that. Things like having a good sleep or not impact that. I mean, you as a parent to a new child, know just how much that can change. So it's a combo, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's one thing. And that's really where the secret is. When you start to notice things like, okay, I just cannot seem to focus. I don't have the energy. You can start to guess what might be going on based on what you know about yourself or about anything that's maybe changed recently or if there's been a pattern and you experiment. And I really, like Ann Lore, talks about tiny experiments. And I love this idea of, okay, just for this set period of time, I'm going to try something different. And so an example for me, I read the book, I might blank on the name of it, but it talks about energy management. And in there he talked about how he changed his lunches to make sure that they were a little bit lighter on carbohydrates and more focused on big salads with protein and healthy fats, and how that just changed his afternoons. So sometimes experimenting that way can be helpful. I also think experimenting with, if you do think it's a dopamine thing and an attention issue, then also trying to make those changes, like spending less time on social media or short form content, or having it maybe later in the day instead of in the middle of the day or in the morning. I mean, we know that there are things that hijack our brains. And so just trying an experiment, like I won't go on social media until afternoons or later and I'm just not going to touch it in the morning. You can experiment with different things.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

So one takeaway I'm going to have from this conversation is I think I know some of this stuff, but it's a good nudge to try this again, which is notice when I'm feeling particularly good and then try to say what was true that led to that, especially as it relates to potential biological blocks. Yeah, because I think the logical stuff, it's like, okay, I don't have a plan or a certain skill, but usually it's a plan. For me, at this stage, it's like I don't have a plan that is clear and step wise enough or I don't have conviction in that plan. But that to me feels more like a psychological problem actually. So I feel like I can solve that. And the psychological stuff, immunity to change, which maybe we'll talk more about biological. I really don't have a solution for that other than figure out like what has worked for me before, which I've kind of naturally done at some times anyway, like from doing LinkedIn learning courses. I know actually if I'm going to be on camera and performing better, not have a big lunch like you were saying. So some of the stuff I've taken, but I feel like I could do a better job of understanding the leading indicators or leading determinants of my biological processes a little better.

[Kat Mulvihill]

I love what you said about paying attention when something's working really well. And that's something. You know, I have clients where recently they were, I was asking them to do a reflective exercise and I said, what is an environment that is. It's just helpful for you to get into that reflective mode. Is it your favorite coffee shop? Is it an outdoor patio? Where do you like to be? And also, do you have a favorite pen and journal that you prefer or something? So what are the circumstances that support and match what you're trying to do? And then they've told me exactly where. They said, yes, actually, I really like this place. And I said, okay, can you go there this week? When are you going? And also these are people who are obligers like myself. And so they make that plan and when they come back they say that that matching of the environment and the time of day makes a huge difference. Trying to expect yourself to do really important work, reflective work, or maybe it's really methodical work at a time of day that's completely mismatched. I mean, that's even a simple experiment that many people can do. I know not everyone has that luxury because you might have other constraints that might make that difficult. But I think paying attention to, oh, that worked really well, or ooh, that did not roll off as well, what's going on there? And I think that can be really helpful.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

The four tendency stuff that we've talked about, does that all live inside of psychological, you think?

[Kat Mulvihill]

I use the four tendencies primarily for biological because this is about our natural tendency and the fact that most of us are pretty consistent throughout our life for how we respond to inner and outer expectations. I think it's really important to remember, though, that framework is one where it's just how you respond to inner and outer expectations. It has nothing to do with how smart you are, how creative you are, how loving you are. It's. It's literally just how do you respond to inner and outer expectations? But that does mean that it can sort of predict if you are more likely to follow through on something depending on if it's inner or outer. And so for me, once I accepted that, it went a long way because now I lean on turning my inner expectations into outer. I use accountability as a way to say, okay, I work better with outer accountability. So I'm just going to turn the things I want to do into outer accountability.

[Gold Belly and ZocDoc Advertiser]

Mm.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I'll put a link to the four tendencies in the show notes here, but I think just the explanation you gave is pretty good at helping you determine where you land if you have some self awareness. But I think Gretchen also has a free quiz to go through to figure this out.

[Kat Mulvihill]

She does.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

So what are some of the ways that you have mechanized reliably turning your obliger tendencies into a positive?

[Kat Mulvihill]

Well, I don't know if I would say into a positive, but I would say how I work with them is I will look at the thing I'm trying to do and then try to match the most appropriate type of external accountability that fits my circumstances. And also there's budgetary. I mean, you and I both know that in an ideal world, let's say for the gym, most people understand that it's a common challenge for many people, not everyone, to get to the gym regularly. And one of the best ways to have accountability for that is to have a private personal trainer. That's sort of the Cadillac, right? And when it comes to that, that is not always within everyone's budget or reach. So if we kind of scale down and say, okay, what else? Someone signing up for group classes can be really helpful. Somebody who decides, I'm going to have a workout buddy, and I know that there's someone waiting for me. So there's different scales and different financial commitments. Now, one of the things that I've done for myself as a creator and business wise is I record my content live for the most part. I have a podcast and I go live on YouTube because I know I'm going to do it if even one person could be there waiting for me to Go live, then I'll do it now. I learned this through past experience. Back in 2021, I built up a YouTube channel. It was more around tutorials for speaking, virtual presenting. But when I did that, I was consistent. I just show up, I'd go live. That was my constraint. I said, I have to be ready to go live. Like the SNL quote, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 11:30. And so it gave me those constraints. And then later I started saying, okay, I'm going to give it a try to YouTube videos that are recorded. And I was so inconsistent because I did too. No constraints. And also, nobody is. I mean, yeah, some people might notice, but no one's knocking down my door or saying, hey, did you publish this week? And so I would also think to myself, oh, well, you know, nobody's. It's not a big deal and it's not hurting anyone if I don't put out a video this week. And so as I looked back in retrospect, now that I've think in this in terms of is it a logical problem? Biological, psychological? When I switched to recorded videos, it's not like I didn't have the skill set to make videos. Although I'm not a very good editor, it's not like I didn't have a mindset problem. I had built up a channel, it was growing and I liked what I was doing. So this is a prime example where it was not a mindset issue and it was not a skill set issue. It was truly that with no actual real deadline, I kept putting it off. Or I would say, oh, I need more time. But anytime I had that constraint of going live now, for me, that works great. I'm also someone who loves presenting in front of a group other people, that would be their nightmare. They would never want to record their content live. Another example though is like with your podcast, interviewing people, that's a really great way for you to make sure you show up and you record with a guest because you've made that commitment. And so I think I just try to figure out ways within the circumstances and also what I'm trying to do. How do I do this? And one other shout out I'll give is to the lab where when I have started certain projects, sometimes I'll say, hey, is anyone else working on this? Do you want to work on this together? Or does anyone want to do an accountability group? I've used that for when I kicked off writing my book, which still working on it and then also within the mastermind groups, I have a mastermind group where they know that if I say I'm going to do something, they'll actually follow up and say, okay, but what day are you doing and when are you going to report back to us? And so they know that I respond well to that kind of accountability. Not everyone in that group needs that. There are some members of the group they don't ever have to report in or tell us because they that's not how they're wired. And so it's been really helpful for me to follow through on important things in my business that could happen at any time. So they just kept getting pushed off.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

If folks want to dig into the immunity to change stuff after this because again, it's just too big for us to fit into this window. But like I truly want people to experience this for themselves. What's a good next step for them?

[Kat Mulvihill]

So I would say one it's a framework that is by Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy. So there is a book on it which is I don't recommend it to everyone because it's pretty academic and it's a little bit dense, but it is out there. So in case anyone's wondering about the source material, that's where it comes from. And I've been licensed to teach that since 2012. But then the other places you can learn about it. One I do talk about things like the Dreaded Identity pretty regularly in my newsletter, kind of giving examples of the hidden reasons that we get stuck. And then I'm also looking to after the feedback I got from the June event that you hosted where I ran the workshop. The feedback has been incredible and I am looking to host a virtual version of that. And I don't have an exact date yet, but that's definitely something that everyone who's on my email list is going to hear about. That be the first to know when there's an Immunity Change Live workshop. I would also give a shout out the authors of the framework, they have a book I believe it's called Right Weight, Right Mind by Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy. And it's an immunity to change approach specific for weight loss. But even if your goal is not weight loss, it's just really practical. It is not academic like their other work and it does walk you through the process that you would have as well.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Nice. I'll put a link in the show Notes to your workshop page so that if folks want to go through this with you, which I recommend, that's where they can sign up for that wait list. Not an affiliate. No kickback here. Just endorsing that. That was a great experience that both Mal and I were very moved by. I mean, we shared this in our recent episode, recapping offline, but Mal and I both had really powerful experiences with that, and it has helped. Between my initial call with Michael and then that follow up with you, we made some pretty significant changes in how we're operating stuff over here. New scary doors open for sure, but we're walking through them.

[Kat Mulvihill]

I mean, the one thing I'll just add on that is that the immunity to change process, the immunity map that you walk through, it uncovers all the things, but then you have to do the work. And I just want to say that the psychological roadblocks, they tend to be some of the most important, because if we have something that is holding us back and sort of tethering us and saying, don't go there, this is unsafe to actually overturn that psychological immunity that the roadblocks or this dreaded identity, it takes work and it takes patience and it takes paying attention. But it's so worth it when you actually push back against some of these beliefs that are keeping you stuck. It can just completely untether you from some of these challenges. So it's really worthwhile work. It's just. I want to remind people that it's not the easiest work, and I think that's why people are drawn to the quick fix. They want to just show me a YouTube video, just tell me what to do. The number of times I hear people say, just tell me what to do, it's like, okay, but most of the time, we already know what to do. We're just not doing it. And so let's take a look at what's really keeping you stuck here.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

Totally. Because a lot of times it's like, I know what to do, but I'm not doing it. And without solving the fundamental thing that's keeping me from doing it, what's most likely to happen? That either A, I stay in the status quo, which means that I'm actually kind of slipping backwards in terms of business growth over time, or B, I

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

just give in to the fear and

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

stop trying to do the thing at all. So, you know, for me, that was. That was hiring and committing to team building and, like, decentralizing from me, which has been just something I've resisted and has been very scary for a long time.

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

Time.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

But now I've, like, fully embraced it. So, yeah, big, big plus on that.

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

Front.

[Kat Mulvihill]

Yeah. It's been really incredible to watch your journey from the podcast you did with Michael and then just seeing the changes that you've made. They're very real and noticeable changes. And when you make changes like that, where you're challenging these beliefs and you're sort of. You're stepping forward and saying, okay, what if I try this? Does the bad thing happen? That it can look like we're solving it logically? I just need to do the thing. You're doing the thing, but you have a different lens because you're actually paying attention to whether this kind of threat that you were worried about is happening or not.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

So as we wrap up here, we talked about these three levels of psychological, biological, and logical. Is there any last wisdom you would give to folks listening to this as a next step to take or something we haven't touched on that you think is absolutely fundamental to getting unstuck, no matter what layer you're stuck on?

[Kat Mulvihill]

I think my main message is to be kind to yourself. I truly think that it is possible to overcome any of the roadblocks as long as you know that they exist. And also I think it's a little bit meta, but sometimes we need to do mindset work on the other things. For example, I have really tried to pride myself on if I can follow through on my own inner things without outer accountability, that somehow that's better. And I've really pushed back against that. And the analogy I like to use is if you're a person like me who tends to just do better with external expectations or urgency or any of that, it's like needing glasses. Some people need glasses, some people don't. But I would never begrudge someone or judge someone because they need glasses to correct their vision. And so when I think about needing external, and I use the term loosely, I don't technically need it for everything, but it is far more effective of a strategy for me. And so lean into it, just like putting on a pair of glasses. And I think it's just for me, thinking that way of my eyes might be shaped different than someone else's. There are people who don't need outer accountability. They decide to do the thing, they do the thing. Am I envious that they don't need a strategy or tool? Yeah, I am, because I'm human. But also I have tools at my disposal and I can use them and lean on them. And I think that's really helped me with my perspective.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

If you want to learn more about

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

Kat or participate in one of her upcoming live workshops, visit katmolvhill.com we have links in the show notes to find her everywhere on the Internet. And while I have you leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts, go on, do it.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I double dog dare you. Those reviews go a long way and

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

we're still on a quest to hit 500 on Apple podcast.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

If you're on Spotify, those ratings mean a lot too.

[Host (possibly Jay Clouse)]

And just so you know, it was my birthday recently, so you can consider this a personal gift to me. Thank you for listening.

[Co-host or Interviewer (possibly Mal Mulvihill)]

I'll talk to you next week.

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