The disappearance of Claudia Lawrence | Ep 221

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Crime and Coffee Couple – Ep. 221

Episode: The Disappearance of Claudia Lawrence
Hosts: Allison and Mike
Date: November 23, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Crime and Coffee Couple explores the mysterious disappearance of Claudia Lawrence, a 35-year-old chef from York, England, missing since March 18, 2009. Sixteen years on, Claudia’s case has become one of North Yorkshire Police’s most complex unsolved mysteries. Hosts Allison and Mike break down the case’s twists, the failings of the early investigation, and the ongoing toll on Claudia’s family, blending their respectful, heartfelt tone with moments of wit and banter.

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Case Background and Timeline

• Claudia Lawrence

  • Born 1974, disappeared at 35 (11:09).
  • Last seen on March 18, 2009, in York, UK.
  • Worked as a chef at University of York’s Goodricke College.
  • Known for being sociable, reliable, kind-hearted, and close to friends and family.
  • Family: Peter (father), Joan (mother—parents divorced in 1996), sister Ally (10:08–13:41).

• Disappearance Details

  • Last seen leaving work at 2:31pm on March 18; phone calls with her father (8pm) and mother (8:23pm) were described as normal (16:14).
  • Missed plans at the Nag’s Head pub on March 19 and failed to show up for two work shifts, prompting growing alarm.
  • Her father found her home undisturbed: slippers by the door, bed made, dishes in the sink, jewelry on dresser. Notably, her backpack with chef whites, cell phone, and hair straighteners were missing (21:32, 25:19).
  • Purse and bank cards left behind; no sign of struggle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Claudia’s Life and Character

• Grew up in a comfortable home with horse-riding and animal care in Yorkshire.
• Known for willingness to cover shifts for her colleagues—“She was happy to do that. And you know, that's such a gift to a coworker…” (14:23).
• Loyal friend, regularly socializing at Nag’s Head; described as simple, happy, genuine, and not materialistic (17:35).

Timeline and Early Investigation

• Focused on the window between Claudia’s last sightings/calls (8:23pm on March 18) and her missed 6am shift on March 19 (29:09).
• “They just played out various scenarios in their heads as to what could have happened. Did she fall down the stairs? Did she hurt herself? Did someone come over and attack her?” (19:03).
• Phone turned off deliberately March 19, 12:10pm, within 8 miles of York; never recovered (34:28).
• Initial belief: Claudia left for work and disappeared en route.

Mistakes & Critique of Police Handling

• Significant delays: Six weeks before forensic search of her home despite concerns (39:37–41:05).
• Used an outdated blonde-haired photo for years, despite the family offering a current image: “They continued to use this image…with blonde hair for the next four years…” (39:37).
• Lead investigator rarely communicated with the family (only one 15-minute meeting with Claudia’s mother in five years) (40:43).
• Media appeals and city-wide poster campaign, but no concrete evidence or suspects.

Public, Media, and Police Focus

• Distracting Focus on Claudia’s Personal Life
  • Police/media emphasized her romantic ties, calling her relationships “complex and mysterious” (49:03–49:41); tabloids leaned into homewrecker/slut-shaming narratives, damaging public perception and, according to experts, undermining the seriousness of the investigation (49:41–52:50).
  • Notably: “These negative terms are only really used to ever describe female victims…gives a suggestion that somehow this female victim…is responsible for their fate.” (52:50, Allison quoting Dr. Charlotte Barlow).
  • Friends and family dispute media characterizations.
• Rumors and Community Impact
  • Theories ranged from random abduction to crime of passion involving friends or local acquaintances.
  • Unanswered questions about two suspicious men seen at her house a week prior (44:22–45:27).

Witnesses and CCTV

• Sightings:

  • Woman resembling Claudia seen with a “left-handed smoker” at 5:35am, March 19; another unidentified arguing couple at 6am (36:02).
  • Mysterious man caught repeatedly on CCTV near Claudia’s home the night before and the morning she disappeared (41:28–43:22, 63:52–65:08).

• Missing Vehicles:

  • Silver Ford Focus seen breaking near Claudia’s house at 5:42am, March 19 (66:49).
  • White Vauxhall Astra parked near her home from 9:01pm–9:37pm, March 18, coinciding with her final text (66:50).

Later Developments & Cold Case Status

• Fresh investigative teams reinvestigated starting 2013, still suspecting someone close to Claudia knew or was responsible (60:03).
• Possible sighting/abandonment of her backpack 40 minutes from York, days after going missing (73:49).
• Break-ins and disturbances in Claudia’s preserved family home continue to occur, including discovery of a hidden loft (75:12–76:31).
• DNA from cigarette butt in her car (Claudia wasn’t a smoker) yielded no leads (68:46).
• Case downgraded to “reactive”—police waiting on credible new information (69:47).

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The Ongoing Toll

• On Family

  • Peter Lawrence (father) lobbied for “Claudia’s law” (helping families of missing people manage affairs); he passed away in 2021 without answers (70:55).
  • Joan (mother, now in her 80s) continues to maintain Claudia’s home and hopes for her return. The uncertainty is described as “a sentence that she never fathomed could go on for this long.” (71:32)

• On Friends

  • Close friends, especially “sister” figure Susie, have withdrawn from social life, haunted by uncertainty—“has pushed people away, likely because she doesn't want to get close to anyone…” (71:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Claudia] was happy to do that...That’s such a gift to a coworker that has a family..." – Allison (14:23)
• “Knowing that the first 72 hours of a person's disappearance are the most critical…Of course, we know now that she didn't show up for work on Thursday morning. A lot of time has already passed by at this point.” – Allison (28:34)
• “Why are they looking at her windows?” – Allison about two unidentified men (44:28)
• “Complex and mysterious are very loaded words.” – Mike, on the impact of media narratives (49:38)
• “Honestly, back in the day, there was a lot of talk about what a victim was wearing when they were attacked. As if that should matter. I don’t care if I have a fraking bikini on while I’m walking down the street. Don’t effing touch me.” – Allison (54:01)
• “If this had been a man that went missing, their lifestyle, their dating routine would never have been broached…” – Allison, quoting Claudia’s friend Susie (55:23)
• “She could have, like, been with several married men…not saying she was…but even so, you don’t deserve to be killed.” – Mike (53:13)
• “There are people who know or have strong suspicions about what happened to Claudia…people are not very smart, they like to talk…” – Allison (69:20)
• “Claudia’s disappearance…prompted the largest and most complex missing person case in history within North Yorkshire police force.” – Allison (71:32)

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Important Timestamps

• Intro & Banter: 01:09–10:39
• Case Introduction: 10:39
• Claudia’s Last Movements: 16:14–21:32
• Discovery She’s Missing & House Search: 19:03–21:32
• Police Investigation and Critique: 28:56–41:05
• CCTV and Witnesses: 41:28–44:22
• Media Narrative & Stigma: 48:33–55:51
• Theory Debates (stranger vs. known person): 56:56–61:29
• Break-ins & Podcast Developments: 75:12–77:23
• Emotional Reflections: 71:08, 79:35–81:44

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Takeaways & Legacy

• No closure after sixteen years: No body, arrest, or satisfying theory.
• Media framing and victim-blaming were strongly criticized; the stigma made the loss harder for Claudia’s family and friends.
• Claudia’s Law stands as a legacy for affected families.
• Listeners are urged to come forward, even anonymously, with any information via Crimestoppers (77:27).

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Closing Thoughts

Allison and Mike close by reflecting on how the uncertainty surrounding Claudia’s fate ripples through her family and community, hoping one day answers will come. They decry society’s tendency to blame victims based on lifestyle and highlight the importance of supporting families through relentless uncertainty.

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For More:
The case continues to be discussed, including in the podcast "Answers for Claudia" by journalist Tom McDermott.

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If you have information, contact:
www.crimestoppers-uk.org, quoting “Claudia Lawrence”.

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Transcript

[Mike]

Hey, this is Michael Rosenbaum. Hey, guys.

[Allison]

Tom Welling.

[Mike]

Look, we've both played heroes and we both played villains. But in the real life, there are no reshoots, no stuntmen or sequels. We all make mistakes. We're all human. Making one bad decision can not only land you in jail, but could also put yourself and other people around you in serious risk. Be smart. Make a plan. Catch a ride. Stay put. Your decision to drink and drive could permanently change someone else's world, whether you injure them or leave their loved ones grieving. This holiday season, be your own hero. Drive sober, or get pulled over.

[Allison]

Paid for by Nitta Healthcare Conf Complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit oftum.com to learn more. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode with the Crime and Coffee couple. My name's Allison.

[Mike]

And my name's Mike.

[Allison]

Hello, Mike.

[Mike]

Hey, did you like my flailing hand fastly flailing hand video here?

[Allison]

I've never seen anyone wave in such a way, but that's okay.

[Mike]

I'm really excited. I'm really excited to talk to you, Alison, and you all, every single person listening and watching right now. So it's just. You matter. I wanted to let you know you matter somehow, some way, and at the very least, you matter to us because you're listening or watching or whatever it is. So, yeah, I appreciate you being here.

[Allison]

I agree. You guys live in our hearts. And I have a question for you. Have you been smoking Marlboro Reds with the filter out?

[Mike]

How did you know?

[Allison]

Behind my back.

[Mike]

How did you know?

[Allison]

Your voice is telling me that that's what's happening.

[Mike]

Oh, my gosh. I have been ripping darts over there by the garage, just going, lighting them up.

[Allison]

Allison's in the bathroom. I'm going to go suck down some cigs.

[Mike]

I've actually been smoking pipe recently.

[Allison]

Mike used to say that to me. He's like, I feel like I want to start smoking a pipe.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

I was like, you absolutely will not do that.

[Mike]

I mean, a of us have those stories of, like, our uncles or grandfathers or something just getting down in the basement and just smoking that pipe and just packing it in and, you know, it's such a good smell too. I mean, for you kids, you didn't like it ever?

[Allison]

No. My uncle used to smoke a pipe.

[Mike]

You didn't like the smell?

[Allison]

Not really, no.

[Mike]

Oh, my gosh. My Uncle Chuck used to smoke pipes. And I loved the smell. Like, I was intoxicated by it even as, like, a young person. I was like, man, I never even tried it. I mean, I probably did some time in high school, but I just love the smell of, like, natural. Natural tobacco. Like, cigarettes smell like garbage to me.

[Allison]

Don't do that.

[Mike]

Yeah, don't do that. Kids. Not a good idea. You know that. I mean, we don't have to tell you it's cancer and all that stuff.

[Allison]

Our 13 year old got off the bus and she was saying that the bus driver was saying, is someone in here vaping? And then, like, almost alluding to the fact that it was, like, coming from our daughter's area. And I told her, I'm like, so help me God if those beautiful little lungs that I created are being tarnished by any kind of vape. I was like, get in that house and empty all of your belongings. I'm looking through it.

[Mike]

Did you.

[Allison]

I was just joking.

[Mike]

You should have.

[Allison]

No, I. I trust her. She. She was not v. The bus.

[Mike]

Yeah. And if you do vape, don't do it. It's bad. It's bad news. It's like one of those things I always hearken back to the old days where, like, me and Allison, we were born in the 70s, late 70s.

[Allison]

79.

[Mike]

Yep. So at the same time, our parents, like, our. Both our moms, like, oh, my mom smoked during that period. Your mom didn't start smoking until after that?

[Allison]

My mom started smoking when she was probably like 21 or 22.

[Mike]

Oh, I thought it was 30.

[Allison]

No, it definitely wasn't 30. Maybe she was like 22, 23. They got married. My mom got married two days before her 21st birthday.

[Mike]

So I called BS. I think it was much later.

[Allison]

It wasn't. It wasn' much later. But the point is, my parents were already married at the time that she started smoking. And it was something where at her work, her co workers would go out for a smoke break, so she would go out with them, and she's just standing there with idle hands. So she was like, well, I may as well start smoking.

[Mike]

Well, you try a little drag and it's like, okay, fine, fine. Then you get addicted.

[Allison]

I know stuff gets you. And my dad's like, if you were smoking when we met, I wouldn't have dated you.

[Mike]

And she got really mad about that.

[Allison]

Well, I mean, I can see his point, though. I couldn't be married to a smoker.

[Mike]

There's no way I could date a smoker. You know why?

[Allison]

Why?

[Mike]

If she smokes, she pokes. That's what they say.

[Allison]

Those two things go hand in hand.

[Mike]

I don't know, man. You better be. I don't know. I wouldn't know because I've never poked a smoke. But, yeah, you. You did not smoke. So.

[Allison]

No.

[Mike]

Although we did have a poke or two.

[Allison]

Okay. Twice in our life. And that's how our children are here. And never again.

[Mike]

That's amen.

[Allison]

Still recovering.

[Mike]

It was so much work.

[Allison]

Mentally recovering.

[Mike]

And was it worth it? It remains to be seen. It remains. So how's. How's life going? You feeling good? I'm a little okay. Not my voice. It's a little, like, sickness going on, but I should be totally fine by next week. But I'm gonna miss it because I sound fantastic.

[Allison]

You wish you could keep that voice.

[Mike]

I was making some tick tocks and I'm like, no, the thing is near. I was like, in a world.

[Allison]

I got a new tattoo while I was in Sedona with my girlfriends. The plan was that we were all gonna go and get a tattoo, and then they started to, one by one, wimp out on me. And then they started to come back in.

[Mike]

They're little wussies. All. All of them are little wussies.

[Allison]

I told them, I said, hey, no pressure on my end. If you don't want to get one, don't get one. But I am getting one.

[Mike]

You need. Getting tattoos is so much more fun with other people.

[Allison]

I've never gotten a tattoo by myself. I've always been with someone. It's commemorated something.

[Mike]

And real quick, if you had to guess how many tattoos Allison has, just knowing her, especially our longtime listeners, like, what would you guess? Just put a number in your head. How many tattoos do you think Allison has? And I almost guarantee 90% of you that number is higher than you think.

[Allison]

Well, they're just fun. I enjoy tattoos. I think they're really cool. It's a way that people express themselves. And this is a bird cage that I got. And the cage door is open. If you're watching on YouTube, the bird is flying out. And that is just to signify a couple of things in my life.

[Mike]

One flew over the cuckoo's nest.

[Allison]

Yes, I am cuckoo. We all know that. But the one thing is, is that I just celebrated my three year anniversary of not drinking alcohol.

[Mike]

Congratulation.

[Allison]

And so did Mike. And it just so happened. So I had been planning this tattoo in my Pinterest for, I don't know, at least a year, maybe two. And it just so happened to fall on my third anniversary when I got the tattoo.

[Mike]

Not even planned. Right.

[Tom McDermott]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And then the second thing is, I've scaled back from my regular 9 to 5 job as a clinical dietitian to focus more on the podcast. I still do work there, but just not full time.

[Mike]

Yeah. Thank you to you guys. Listening again. So you. You matter to us.

[Allison]

You truly do. What a. What a blessing.

[Mike]

You should be proud of yourself.

[Allison]

Oh, thank you. I really do like my tattoo. And I totally bonded with the guy that did the tattoo. It was called Destination Tattoo in Sedona, and they were top notch. Lovely, because sometimes when I go into a tattoo shop, they act like I'm a basic. They're like, oh, how cute.

[Mike]

Yeah, she's got a tramp stamp and everything.

[Allison]

So you want to get a cute little sun on your body. How cute.

[Mike]

Yeah, well, it's okay. That's their job. Right. Otherwise, if they didn't have basic chicks like you, then they wouldn't have a job.

[Allison]

But this place was so welcoming. They were amazing.

[Mike]

So let's answer the question. How many, many tattoos do you have?

[Allison]

I think I have nine.

[Mike]

Nine sounds about right.

[Allison]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mike]

And your first one came at like 16 years old.

[Allison]

Yes. My mom had to come.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And sign. And it was so weird. I was talking to the guy and this was in Illinois, and he was telling me that it's painful. And by the way, I don't mind the feeling of getting a tattoo. It's almost like therapeutic to me. It's almost like I relish in that pain.

[Mike]

Makes a lot of sense.

[Allison]

So he grabs my hand out of the blue, and again, I'm only 16. And he takes a push pin and. And Right. Rakes it down the top of my hand.

[Mike]

That's not right.

[Allison]

It was so messed up, it started bleeding. I had a scar in that location for probably about a year.

[Mike]

Why do you do that?

[Allison]

He wanted to show me what it would feel like to get a tattoo.

[Mike]

I'm about to feel what it's like because you're going to be get tattoo. And now you assaulted me. Piece of garbage.

[Allison]

So I'm talking my tattoo was healed in maybe a week or so, and I was left with a scar for about a year. What a messed up. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

Terrible. Don't get tattoos.

[Allison]

Kids, tattoos are awesome. You should get them Kids.

[Mike]

Oh, God.

[Allison]

Our daughter. She will be 14 by the time this episode is released because her birthday is coming. But we're already thinking about our matching tattoos.

[Mike]

I'm going to come out and say it. I'm not a huge tattoo guy.

[Allison]

Well, you do have one tattoo. I don't know if we've ever talked about it on this podcast.

[Mike]

Mike, where is that tattoo on my right butt cheek? It is a C for the Chicago Bears, and if you search the Internet enough, you can find it. I posted it somewhere, I think, on a Bears forum somewhere, so you can find it.

[Allison]

And I don't know if anyone wants to see that.

[Mike]

Yeah, there's probably a little hair sprouting out of it and stuff. It's nothing. Great. It's not. I mean, it's on my butt. Oh.

[Allison]

You have to explain what happened when you went in to get the tattoo and he quoted you a price.

[Mike]

Yeah, I will. So, first of all, I'm sorry. I'm a mammal. Secondly, when I got my tattoo, me and my friend went in. It was just like, something stupid. Let's get a bear tattoo on our ass. We're like, all right, cool. Let's do it. We go in, we get a quote. He's like, 50 bucks. We're like, all right, cool. He's like, where's it going? And I was like, right butt cheek. He's like, oh, that's 80. Yeah, that's. That's like, what? I think it was. Less 70 or maybe. Yeah, yeah.

[Allison]

I think it was from 50 to 80.

[Mike]

Okay, so 80. And so, like, that's what it was. But I didn't hear that. He said that to my friend. I never got told that. So my friend gets tattooed, and then it's my turn. I get tattooed. And he's like, all right, 80 bucks. I'm like, you said 50. He's like, no, man. 80 for the handling charge. I'm like, no, you never told me that. Sorry. So I'm not paying you $80. You told me 50. You told my friend 80. You didn't tell me 80. I would have said no.

[Allison]

So that seemed very unprofessional.

[Mike]

100%. Like, it's skin.

[Allison]

It's skin.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

Get over yourself.

[Mike]

It's not like, on my butthole. Like, butthole maybe got like, you know, I don't know, just, like, dirty things.

[Allison]

Oh, yeah, for sure. But no, this. He. You just had to, like, kind of pull your pants to the side. Your. Your whole ass wasn't out or anything?

[Mike]

No, I. I show it like, at bars all the time. So if you ever see me in public, go ahead and ask me.

[Allison]

Mike will show you 100%. So if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see that we have our Christmas tree up. It's our black podcast. Christmas Tree.

[Mike]

Christmas time is here. Oh, we did that last time. Sorry. But it is. I love Christmas, man. I'm so glad to be done with stupid Halloween.

[Allison]

I love Halloween. And Charles, our skeleton is hanging out in the tree.

[Mike]

Yeah, man, he's just.

[Allison]

Oh, my God. You almost knocked it.

[Mike]

I'm very large. There's not a lot of room here. So sorry.

[Allison]

All right, so on that note, shall we dive into this cup of coffee?

[Mike]

Yeah. Real quick. We. I found I stumbled upon some old episodes of our first podcast, Basic Suburbia. And this is a little teaser. We may release some episodes at some point. I don't know.

[Allison]

I don't want to.

[Mike]

Allison saying no, but I don't know.

[Allison]

I don't want to.

[Mike]

It's. It's just us talking for like 40 minutes.

[Allison]

Yeah, I'm not into it.

[Mike]

Okay. Maybe patron knows. What if the patrons want it? What if the subscribers want it?

[Allison]

I don't think so.

[Mike]

Okay, well, that was fun.

[Allison]

I take the fun and I squash.

[Mike]

She sure does.

[Allison]

All right, so are you ready?

[Mike]

I'm ready.

[Allison]

All right, so this is a listener suggestion from Anna. And this is the disappearance of Claudia Lawrence. So 35 year old Claudia Lawrence was last seen on Wednesday, March 18, 2009, before she truly seemed to vanish into thin air. So more than 16 years have gone by, and in those years, she has missed major milestones. She has missed celebrating both her 40th and 50th birthdays. Throughout those years, her home has remained preserved by her family, who hope and pray that maybe one day she might still return.

[Mike]

I mean, based on history of things, I don't know if that's a great.

[Allison]

But, you know, when someone's grieving, you can't fault them for anything. So her unworn dresses remain hung in the closet untouched, while those, you know, remnants of her house have been eventually pushed to the sidewalls. But, you know, basically it's just really sad because this grieving family is still holding out hope that maybe Claudia is still out there. So since Claudia vanished and has been presumed murdered, her friends and family have been tortured by the thoughts of what might have happened to her. Where could she possibly be? As the investigation began, her loved ones couldn't even fathom going another week, let alone more than a decade. And A half. During the initial days, they truly tried to convince themselves that she would simply turn up with some sort of explanation. Oh, I went on this vacation. It was unplanned. It was a spur of the moment thing. Sadly, that didn't happen. Claudia was born in Malton, North Yorkshire, England on February 27, 1974 to parents Peter and Joan Lawrence. They went on to divorce in 1996. She also had an older sister named Ally. So the town of Malton has strong horse racing connections and every single Saturday she and Ally would go for riding lessons. She had a comfortable upbringing and since horses were one of her passions in life as a child, she had her own pony. So the Lawrence family, they lived in a five bedroom home and it had property for horses. So it sounds like her pony was likely housed on her property. And then during the winter months, they also looked after donkeys from Scarborough Beach. So their property was used as a sanctuary for these animals. I looked it up, like, what's with donkeys on Scarborough Beach? Apparently children come to the beach and take donkey horse. Yeah, they take donkey horse rides. Yeah, I know what you mean, they take donkey rides. So Claudia was described as a very happy child. She had wonderful teenage years and these years included trips to the market square with her friends. She occasionally earned extra money babysitting for her father's friend. This is Martin Dales and I guess his daughters who she looked after, they looked up at, at Claudia and they just saw her as this like super glamorous person. So Claudia and Allie, they attended nearby private schools and despite the fact that they were very different in character, I always find that funny how you could be raised by the same two parents and be so completely different.

[Mike]

Yeah. And like the similar genetics and stuff, it's just a matter of how your DNA came out.

[Allison]

Right. So regardless of the fact that they were very different people, they were also very close. So while Ally focused more on school, Claudia was more outgoing, adventurous and brave. She loved going for long rides on her horse, she liked cleaning out stables, and although she did enjoy school, she really didn't enjoy doing the homework that was involved with it. She was an overall happy girl and she always had a large circle of friends around her. She was just very fun and outgoing, somebody you would want to spend time with. So when Claudia finished high school, she went on to study catering, so that by the time she was in her early 20s, she had worked in an array of different kitchens before she eventually joined the University of York where she worked as a chef there. So according to Joan her daughter was very well liked among her co workers. So Claudia was the type of person that she was single, she was young, she didn't have children. So she would be that person to step up during the holidays and offer to cover shifts that other people didn't want to work, like Christmas or Thanksgiving. She was happy to do that. And you know, that's such a gift to a co worker that has a family and wants to be there on Christmas morning to open gifts with her kids. Kids. So despite the long hours and the demanding work, Peter indicated that his daughter was extremely happy with her career choice. So since she was working in York, Claudia decided to relocate to the area in order to be closer. Since she didn't want to make the 18 mile or 29 kilometer commute during the winter months. She just, she wasn't into winter, she didn't like snow in general.

[Mike]

It's dangerous, man. I crashed a car before in winter ice.

[Allison]

Oh, it is so scary. When we first got married, I would drive from where we lived in neighborhood Ville, Illinois up to De, Illinois through these like wintry farm fields along the interstate and these trucks would come whizzing by me. I thought for sure I was going to die on that road. So I cannot blame her for that. So she purchased this tidy two bedroom, kind of like a cottage. But it was a terraced home in 2007 and it was adorned with a green door and it was situated on the outskirts of the city center at 46 Huth Road. So the area where Claudia was now calling home is a mixture of homes, a post office, a primary school as well as a church. And she lived only four doors down from a local pub that was called the Nag's Head. So it was so close, you know, she could just pop over a few doors and be there.

[Mike]

Yeah, big pub culture in the uk.

[Allison]

Yeah. So she became a regular at the establishment and she would often use it as her meetup spot for friends and dates or whatever. So Claudia was only a 10 minute drive from her job at Goodrick College of the University of York on their Heslington campus. But at the time her old Vauxhall Corsa car was in the shop. So right before she disappeared, she had actually been walking to work rather than driving. And the last time she was ever seen was Wednesday. This is March 18, 2009. So on this day, it was on Wednesday, March 18, 2009. This is a day when cameras captured her leaving work at 2:31pm so she was spotted at various locations along her 45 minute walk home. Later that night, she spoke with her father on the phone right around 8pm and then after that, she spoke with her mother at about 8:23pm so while she was talking to her mom, they were discussing Mother's Day. And when Joan spoke with her daughter, they had both been watching a British reality house hunting show called Location, Location Location. So since the show was being filled in Harrogate, where friends lived, they were just chatting about that. And when Joan later spoke with investigators, she indicated that their conversation was completely normal. Claudia sounded fine, nothing was amiss. So it wasn't until Thursday evening when anyone started to realize that something might be wrong. And this on Thursday evening was when Claudia's friend Susie Cooper was sitting waiting for her arrival at the Nag's Head. They had planned to meet up for a cider that evening, as they very often did. So when she didn't arrive as planned, Susie sent her friend a text. And she was just joking that she had been stood up because at the time she wasn't at all concerned. She did call her friend, it went straight to voicemail. So again, Susie wasn't concerned. She just assumed that Claudia might have had like a rough day at work and maybe she had fallen asleep and forgot to charge her phone. So Susie just so happened to be off of work that week. So she called Claudia again the following morning. And just like with the night before, the phone call went straight to voicemail. So she continued to do this call her go to voicemail. And this was really out of character for Claudia. She was usually very readily available. So as time continued to tick by, on Friday, Susie started to get more and more concerned. So Susie, Claudia and her, their friend Jen King, they had all met up at Nag's Head. At the Nag's Head. That's where they formed their friendship. And this happened in 2006. And in those three years they had just formed this super, super tight bond where they talked a lot. So several nights a week they would meet up at the pub and if they weren't together, they were either texting each other or talking on the phone. So that's just setting up a picture that Claudia was always readily available to her friends. They would talk to each other about how their days were going. If someone was having a rough time, they would say, hey, let's pop over to the pub, let's have a drink and we'll talk about it. So since Susie and Claudia were such close friends, they often referred to one another as sister, rather than calling each other by Their names. So, you know, obviously, Susie, realizing that something is off in her friend's life, is highly, highly distressing to her. So, according to Jen, Claudia was a very simple person. She was very easy to please. She'd occasionally go shopping for a new top. She might pop over to the pub. She might spend some time with her horse, listen to music. But she really didn't care about materialistic items. That just wasn't important to her. She loved a good vacation. She loved spending time in the sun and getting a tan. So because their friend was so predictable in schedule, when Susie and Jen weren't able to reach Claudia, they knew something wasn't right. So when they were unable to reach her on Friday into the morning and in the afternoon, finally, Susie called Peter to let him know what was going on. And he immediately drove straight over to his daughter's house. And when they entered Claudia's home together, using Peter's key, because Claudia's home was locked, they were scared of what they might find on the other side of that door. They just played out various scenarios in their heads as to what could have happened. Did she fall down the stairs? Did she hurt herself? Did someone come over and attack her? But once they found themselves inside, they found absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. So Peter and Susie saw Claudia's slippers. They were placed neatly by her door, where I guess she typically left them. Her bed was made, Breakfast dishes were stacked in the sink, and jewelry that she always removed after work was sitting on her chest of drawers. So the kitchen, which was situated next to the bathroom, held her toothbrush in the draining board. But her chef's whites, which she carried in a backpack, as well as her cell phone, were gone. So despite the fact that, yes, her jewelry was on her chest of drawers, and her purse and her bank cards were there, as well as her passport. The. The picture they saw in Claudia's house was suggesting that maybe she left for work on Thursday morning.

[Mike]

Yeah. Why else would her work stuff be gone but the jewelry? Single piece of jewelry, basically, like, kind of like I'm picturing you. Like, you know, like you'd always put on rings and bracelets and everything.

[Allison]

Yeah. So I am not a very big accessory person. I keep the same earrings in all the time, but I take my rings off every night before bed, except for my sleep ring that I use. So I do wear my rings to work. However, Claudia, working with food, I don't know. Did she wear her rings routinely while she was cooking with her. With, you know, with food. So it might have Been that the establishments didn't allow jewelry. Like you can't have fake nails and all of that stuff. So I'm not sure in terms of the jewelry, how often she actually wore them to work.

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[Allison]

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[Allison]

But again, her. Her purse was gone. Was there. Her bank cards were there. But she was walking to work at the time, so it's not like she would need her driver's licen or anything like that.

[Mike]

Yeah, but it's always good to have your wallet in case you want to stop for a pint at the pub or whatever. Want to go get a top at a store. Like it's good to have that stuff.

[Allison]

It is. So although used bleach and brown hair dye was found in the bathroom, her hair straightener was gone. So later information indicated that Claudia did occasionally take her hair straightener with her to work. It may have been inside her backpack. So when Peter contacted the university, he learned that his daughter had not shown up for her scheduled shift on Thursday morning at 6am so after she was a no call, no show, her boss did call her phone. But after it went straight to voicemail, he basically took no further action. So not only had Claudia missed work on Thursday, but also on Friday, this was something that was highly, highly out of character for her.

[Mike]

Yeah, she's gone. She's not there anymore.

[Allison]

Which I find to be a distressing piece of information because if you have a co worker and you know, they show up every shift like, like clockwork, and all of a sudden they're not showing up and you can't get a hold of them. I feel like it's your duty to do something about it.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. She's not a flake. Like, she's a good worker. She's always there. Like, this is definitely something's up. You should at least contact somebody about it.

[Allison]

Right, right.

[Mike]

I mean, that'd be the. The nice human thing to do. Unless you're a piece of garbage.

[Allison]

They didn't do that. So hearing this information, Peter walked outside, he sat alone in his car, and he dialed 999 at about 2pm to report his daughter missing. So within Hours, Heweth Road was teeming with police. The 150 to 200 police officers that combed every inch of the route that she would have taken to work only made the desperation in Peter's heart that much more so. He recalls the situation just feeling so incredibly surreal, like he was in some sort of nightmare. So meanwhile, Joan had been staying with at the weekend at Ali's house. She was staying with her young family and Derbyshire. Or actually me. Darby, sure. When she got a call from Peter on Friday afternoon and she was absolutely stunned to hear him say Claudia's disappeared. She couldn't understand, though, at the time, why he would have automatically assumed that she disappeared before previously contacting her or Ally to say, hey, have you heard from Claudia? Did she talk to you? Did she tell you she was going somewhere that I'm not aware of. Of. But I will say the fact that she didn't show up to work on Thursday and Friday, she did not inform her boss or her co workers that she was not going to be there, that I think alone made Peter feel something's not right. Paired with the fact that she didn't show up for that cider to meet Susie.

[Mike]

Yeah. So Ally, her sister was thought it was weird that her dad.

[Allison]

No, not Ally. Joan.

[Mike]

Joan. Her. His. The.

[Allison]

The ex wife. Yeah. Okay, Peter's ex wife slash Claudia's mom.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Allison]

She's like, why are you jumping to conclusions before even had a conversation with me or Ali about it.

[Mike]

Yeah, I mean, maybe he knows his daughter enough. It's like, okay, she didn't show up and she wasn't there. She's gone somewhere.

[Allison]

That was my thought process. Just hearing that she didn't call or show up to work was enough for him to think that something was wrong. So knowing that the first 72 hours of a person's disappearance are the most critical hours, investigators wasted no time at all. Of course, we know now that she didn't show up for work on Thursday morning. A lot of time has already passed by at this point.

[Mike]

You're basically over the 72 hours.

[Allison]

Right, so. Or at least like what, 30 some odd. So the intensity of the searches that were held in and around her house.

[Mike]

No, that night, Wednesday and the Wednesday night at the pub.

[Allison]

No, it was Thursday evening that she didn't show up at the pub.

[Mike]

Oh, okay.

[Allison]

But she did not show up on Thursday morning at 6:00am for her scheduled shift. Peter is calling Friday at 2:00pm so from somewhere, somewhere between Wednesday nights, she had spoken to her mom at around 8:23 and then she was a no show at work at 6am on Thursday morning, if that makes sense. Yes. So basically the point is they immediately began an investigation. They were looking in and around her house and, you know, the police from the North Yorkshire Police Department, they knew that they were working against the clock. They had to hurry up and see if they could find information quickly. So despite the fact that the search began without delay, Joan feels that there were a lot of mistakes in the initial investigation. She feels that officers were not equipped to handle such an extensive case. Case. So two days after Claudia's disappearance, the North Yorkshire Police, they made its first media appeal and then during the second appeal, when it was released, they had a much more worried tone. I think maybe initially they were holding out hope that maybe Claudia took an impromptu trip or something like that. A press conference was arranged for Monday. While a high ranking officer had been assigned to the case, Chief reporter Mike Laycock decided to feature Claudia's story on the front page of Monday's paper, since his gut just told him that her disappearance wasn't a typical missing person's case. So the following day, Detective Chief Inspector Lucy Pope told journalists that she feared that Claudia had been abducted. Peter stood alongside her as she spoke. He was visibly distraught, understandably, as he described the situation as living in a nightmare. Claudia's case struck a chord in York. This is a tourist city that's known for its Viking heritage and Gothic cathedral. Everyone just was so befuddled. How does someone just go missing? So they wanted to get updates, they wanted to share their own theories as to what might have happened to her.

[Mike]

Like we're all thinking right now, there's answers. It's probably like in my head, it's like it's probably somebody she knew and maybe it wasn't. If it wasn't, it was somebody in her, like, building or somebody that lived near her that was looking at her for a long time. Like there's so many things, but go ahead.

[Allison]

So Claudia's case was assigned to one of North Yorkshire's police, most senior officers. This is Detective Superintendent Ray Galloway. And it quickly became one of the biggest cases that the force had dealt with in several years, maybe ever. So posters of Claudia's face and information, they were just plastered around the city. While officers combed through the underbrush, they checked nearby streams, waterways, they spoke with neighbors. So after Claudia's home was searched, investigators deduced that it was not a crime scene since there was absolutely no sign in the house that suggested some kind of altercation or struggle. Struggle or foul play. So since the last text that she received was from a male friend who lived in Cyprus. This is an island in the Mediterranean Sea. This is a place that Claudia loved. She had vacationed five times before they started to initially wonder if maybe she secretly went to live there. But you're talking about somebody that was close to her parents. The night before she vanished, she was just chatting with both of her parents on the phone. Somebody like that doesn't just go over to Cyprus to secretly live there.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

You know, that's, that seems very far fetched.

[Mike]

Oh, they're looking at any possibility and I get that.

[Allison]

However, this idea was quickly dismissed since her bank cards as well as her passport were found sitting in her house. So since Claudia did not own a computer, she did not utilize social media, she didn't use the Internet on her Samsung D900 phone. She left very few digital clues as to her whereabouts. Unlike smart smartphones, you know, nowadays her phone did not track her location. However, she had always been very responsive to text messages and phone calls. So according to her cell phone records, she texted someone on and Wednesday evening at 8:27pm but then she failed to respond to a text that she received about 45 minutes later at 9:12:12pm so, you know, did she go to bed before 9:12pm?

[Mike]

Does anybody know her typical schedule? Like does she normally do that?

[Allison]

Nobody said that.

[Mike]

And that wasn't the night she was scheduled to go to the pub. That was the next day.

[Allison]

Right, the next day.

[Mike]

So that was right after she talked to her mom. What time, did anybody say what time she normally goes to bed or anything?

[Allison]

No, that was never mentioned. But everybody can be different. You know, you could have had a previously horrible night's sleep and at 8 o' clock or whatever she was on the phone with her mom. Right. Around 8:30. So say she hung up with her mom after that call and she, and she's like, man, I'm super tired. Even if that wasn't her normal routine, sometimes we're just really tired and we go to bed earlier.

[Mike]

Yeah, but you look at the law of averages.

[Allison]

Sure. Like if you told me someone said about me that I missed a text at 9:12pm completely possible. Completely possible. Because I normally go to bed around.

[Mike]

8:30Pm and probably like, yeah, normal, I.

[Allison]

Would say, I'd say that's pretty normal. So the point is she's chatting with her mom around 8:30. She sent a text message at 8:27pm on Wednesday, but then at 9:12pm she never answered. That Question. Or that that text. So analysis of her phone shows that it was deliberately turned off at 12:10pm the following day.

[Mike]

Thursday, 12:10pm so noon, little. Afternoon.

[Allison]

Yeah, afternoon on Thursday. So this is before anyone knew anything was wrong because she had yet to miss that meet up with Susie at the pub.

[Mike]

And this is pointing to likely that she probably went to sleep then that night.

[Allison]

Possibly. So the point is, according to research, her phone did not track her location.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

So, you know, that's something to consider too. Whereas nowadays if someone took me with my cell phone, you would see that it pinged somewhere else.

[Mike]

And in 2009, you know, people aren't thinking about the phone being tracked either. Whereas now, you know it is.

[Allison]

You know it is now, now. So the point is, on Thursday afternoon at 12:10pm it was deliberately turned off. It was within an 8 mile radius of York. So it could have been right there, right by her house. The point is it had not traveled far. So Claudia's phone has never been recovered. It never pinged off towers along her route to work. Although again, the, the information here says it didn't track her location.

[Mike]

So the pinging is different. It's not. There's no gps. But the cell towers, you know, as you're traveling it'll connect cell towers.

[Allison]

So it never pinged off of different cell towers on her way to work on Thursday. So detectives were initially certain that Claudia left for work on Thursday morning as scheduled. This is March 19th. And believe that something happened to her along her 45 minute walk between Heweth Road and Goodrick College. This is a distance of about 2.9 miles or 4.7 kilometers.

[Mike]

It's a long way.

[Allison]

It is. And that's why it would take her upwards of an hour.

[Mike]

Yeah. And if she does it every day, then, you know, know, somebody looking to get her would know that she does that.

[Allison]

She didn't do it normally, but it was because her car was in the shop. So I don't know how often she would do it if her car was in functioning order. Sometimes people like to start their day with a good solid walk and then they don't have to hit the gym that day, you know, because if in total there and back, it's close to six miles. So since her shift began at 6am and she normally left to walk at about 5am it would have still been dark outside. Records indicate that the sun rose that day at 6:09am Them I will tell you that backpack was missing with her chef whites in it. And someone made a Comment on Reddit that indicated that there are certain places in the UK that require food service employees or chefs to change on premises so that they know that they're being put into clean clothing. So whether or not Claudia did that, I'm not entirely sure. Did she walk in her street clothes, get to work and then change into her chef's way whites? Not entirely sure. Sure about that?

[Mike]

Wouldn't a reporter somewhere like talk to the her place of work?

[Allison]

You would think so. That information is not available. So a number of witnesses came forward, including a cyclist who saw a woman the morning that Thursday morning that was matching Claudia's description. She was talking to a man who was later dubbed by police as the left handed smoker. The witness saw him near the electricity substation at Melrose Gate Bridge bridge at about 5:35 in the morning. Since the man wore a dark hoodie, his face was hidden so the cyclist couldn't say what he looked like. The area in question was an 11 minute walk to her house. And from that location it would have taken Claudia another 37 minutes to walk to work, meaning she would have arrived at about 6:12am, making her late for her 6:00am shift. Had this woman in question indeed been Claudia. So the location wasn't as far as Melrose Gate shops which had CCTV cameras. This is cameras that depicted Claudia walking home only the day before in the afternoon. So this suggested that she never made it that far on foot. On Thursday morning, another witness came forward and indicated seeing a man and a woman who were arguing on a grass verge next to a car on University Way, right around the time Claudia was set to start her shift at 6am them despite numerous appeals, the identities of both of these couples were never discovered. So although no body had been found, there was no crime scene, there was no suspect. Six weeks after Claudia disappeared, the investigation was reclassified from a missing person's case to a homicide investigation.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Allison]

And the reason they did this was because there was zero proof of life.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

There was nothing to suggest that Claudia was still alive live. So Joan sadly learned about this detail while she was watching a news report, which honestly seems really crappy to me. You don't say you're taking a missing person's case and up, you know, scaling it to a homicide investigation without further, you know, previously talking to the parents. That just seems very callous to me.

[Mike]

That's garbage police work.

[Allison]

So that just gave her an absolute shock because in her mother's heart she's holding out hope that her daughter is still alive. So Joan was highly critical of the initial investigation. As I mentioned earlier, she said that officers used a photo of Claudia that had. She had blonde hair in the photo and this was not up to date with what she looked like at the time that she went missing.

[Mike]

What the hell, Whose choice was that?

[Allison]

I don't know. So at the time that she went missing, she had dark brown hair with auburn streaks. So even after Joan pointed out this error and offered a more up to date photo photo, they continued to use this image of Claudia with blonde hair for the next four years, according to what Joan said. So not only did she feel that, you know, she wasn't kept in the loop as to what was going on, Joan also indicated that investigators hadn't done a forensic search of her cottage for six weeks. I think very quickly they looked around the cottage and they determined that it didn't look like a crime scene. So I think because of that, it took them six weeks to say, you know what, maybe we need to do a deep forensic dive into this cottage.

[Mike]

Well then I'm curious, did they find anything there?

[Allison]

So the thing was, in the initial days of Claudia's disappearance, they believed that she left for work on Thursday morning and that's when something happened to her.

[Mike]

That's what it feels like.

[Allison]

So that, that's how it initially started. That does change.

[Mike]

Yeah, I feel, that's how I feel. Any of your, your stories going.

[Allison]

So Joan also said that in the five years that Detective Ray Galloway was in charge of the case, she met him only a total of 15 minutes, which to me seems strange.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

Like this is the lead investigator of a missing person's case, which is then deemed a homicide case. And the mother of the missing person has only met this detective one time for 15 minutes.

[Mike]

Interesting.

[Allison]

She said he never expressed his condolences, he never bothered to ask Joan questions and about who her daughter was as a person, what her hobbies were, what was she like? Because I think learning about what a person was like in life kind of suggests how they could have potentially died.

[Mike]

Well, it gives you clues and you can put together a profile and kind of see what would could have happened.

[Allison]

So as the weeks went by, the police seemed no closer to figuring out what happened to Claudia. They hope that maybe CCTV footage that was released in mid May, which depicted a man near Claudia's home on the morning of her disappearance, maybe would provide a critical clue. So this man in question could be seen walking down Heworth Heweth Place. So this is an area that was off the main road and it led to the area behind the row homes where Claudia lived. So this was at 5:07am so he's walking towards an alley behind her house.

[Mike]

House.

[Allison]

And then just over a minute later, he reappeared, possibly carrying a bag over his shoulder, and then he joined the main road again. So I don't know if there's a hundred percent certainty. Did the man have the bag all along or did he pick it up after he walked behind Claudia's house? That's unclear. The, the image isn't crystal clear. It's possibly he had the bag, you just couldn't see see it. So there's no footage at all of Claudia obviously being taken from her home or even of her leaving her home. Had she been abducted on her way to work on Thursday morning? The cameras that are situated near Claudia's home, they were angled to monitor traffic flow rather than at residential footpaths or garden gates. They didn't depict the front of Claudia's walkway or her walking route to work. So had she been approached close to home or had she been taken from her home home, it would not have been captured. So Galloway told the York press that the man's action that was seen at 507am on the morning that she may have gone missing, you know, he said that the guy's actions just seem strange. He urged the person in question to come forward in order to be excluded from the inquiry. Although this person has never been identified.

[Mike]

It'S kind of crazy that the police haven't identified any of these people. Like the two people arguing, the one with the black hoodie and a girl talking like, you have haven't found these people? Like they haven't come forward? No, because they would come forward. Like if you found enough leads, like the information's probably there somewhere. I'm sure they reached out to somebody at some precinct somewhere and was like, oh, yeah, that was me and my husband arguing, or me and my boyfriend. Because people want to hear and help.

[Allison]

Right, Right. And Claudia's case was huge.

[Mike]

Yeah. And it's like that was not Claudia, that was me and my boyfriend. So, you know, people would probably want to come forward with that information. You would think, I'm sure the lead is somewhere. I just think they didn't do it. That's what I'm possibly.

[Allison]

So say you're walking, you're the person in the footage and you are, are just wandering behind Claudia's house at 5:07 in the morning. Maybe you wouldn't come forward because you'd be afraid that you'd Be implicated.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's a distinct possibility because they want to nail somebody, especially in the United States. That'd be probably dangerous to do, I would say. I don't know. That'd be. That'd be hard. Yeah, that'd be especially. You're like, oh my God, I was behind her house. I was just looking in the garbage bin or something or picking up some cocaine from my friend or, you know, whatever.

[Allison]

Whatever reason it might be.

[Mike]

Like, yeah, probably somebody walking around 5am in an alley, but probably isn't doing the great things. I would guess.

[Allison]

One never knows. So detectives also announced that they were trying to find the identities of two men seen at Claudia's front door one week before she vanished. One man looked toward the downstairs window while the other looked up at the first floor window. I mean, that's creepy.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So one of them was described as standing around five' five, with a distinctive long thin face, just little guy, a pointy nose and dark circles under his eyes.

[Mike]

Is he a human rat?

[Allison]

And I also don't understand how it was that clear when the footage isn't very crisp. How could you tell that he had dark circles under his eyes and a.

[Mike]

Pointy nose like these in what, 2009? These images are probably super grainy.

[Allison]

I saw the, the stills of like the man in question that was walking. I. You would never know if he had dark circles under his eyes. So I don't know. The other man in question was of a heavier build at about 5 foot 7. And he was wearing a waist length jacket and, and jeans just like before. These two men have never been identified. But why are they lurking around Claudia's home?

[Mike]

Yeah, it's definitely worrisome.

[Allison]

Why are they looking at her windows?

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[Tom McDermott]

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[Allison]

So in June, this is three months after Claudia vanished. The lead detective told BBC Crime Watch that investigators were focusing on on Claudia's romantic Life. Which is appropriate.

[Mike]

100. That'd be one of the first things I'd look at.

[Allison]

Right. So Galloway wanted to know who she was seeing, if she had a boyfriend, if anyone had been paying unhealthy attention to her.

[Mike]

And she had a boyfriend a year ago and somebody's jealous and whatever.

[Allison]

And there was reports that she may have spent the night at a man's place shortly before she vanished.

[Atlantic Union Bank Announcer]

The.

[Allison]

The identity of this person has never been publicly revealed.

[Mike]

Okay. I was gonna say they never found out who it was. It's like, oh my God, do they know anything?

[Allison]

Yeah, no, they just never, never revealed it. So he must not have ever been a suspect. So, you know, she was just kind of freely dating, you know, whatever. So they were just trying to pay more attention to her personal life. And in a second appearance on a show, Galloway described Claudia's relationship as complex and mysterious. So these vague yet suggestive terms immediately became the subject of tabloid headlines. And with this, rumors began to swirl.

[Mike]

Complex and mysterious are very loaded words.

[Allison]

I know know. So these tabloids gave this air of suggestion that Claudia somehow deserved whatever happened to her. Former Metropolitan Detective Chief Inspector Clive Driscoll believes that Galloway's comments turn public opinion against Claudia and had a detrimental effect on the investigation. He believed that Galloway went about it the wrong way and should have phrased things differently. You do have to be careful with your words.

[Mike]

Yeah, this, this is the Galloway guy that didn't talk to the mom, right? So like, he's clearly not to going good with people. He's, he's probably shouldn't be in the position he's in. I mean, I hate to say it, but you, you have to have some people skills, right?

[Allison]

And you know, the media will grasp on to any little crumb that they can. They want to sensationalize things. So according to the National College of Policing's murder Investigation manual, if you find out how a person lived, you'll find out how they died. It also indicates in the majority of cases, as a lot of us know, there is a prior association between the offender and the victim. Victim. Most times the victim knows the person that did something to them.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

Understanding a victim's lifestyle and their routine is key to finding out why or how they died, as the majority of women are killed by a partner or ex partner.

[Mike]

Yeah, men are crazy, man. We have testosterone going through our veins and the ones that are off the rockers, as we know, every single week do some bad, bad things.

[Allison]

So this made some defend Galloway's focus on Claudia's love. I don't think anyone could defend him focusing on Claudia's love life. That's like.

[Mike]

Or not defend him, but yeah, no.

[Allison]

Like him focusing on Claudia's love life is very important. I think. It's not that fact, it's how he worded what he said.

[Mike]

Mysterious and complicated or whatever he said. Complex I think it was the best idea is if you don't have something real to say, just say, we're looking into it, it's been a challenge and that's it. Leave it at that.

[Allison]

Leave it at that.

[Mike]

Once you're leaving Complex Flex and it's, it's, it's like you're opening a can of worms.

[Allison]

I agree, too. It's very cryptic. So those that were defending Galloway indicated that he would have been failing as senior investigating officer had he not pursued it.

[Mike]

No, no, I agree.

[Allison]

That's not the point.

[Mike]

Said the wrong thing. Stupid ass like Galloway. You're a dumbass. You're stupid. You don't like you. You really shouldn't be in your position to talk to the media. Like, go ahead, maybe you're really good at your job, but you're, you're terrible with people.

[Allison]

Right. It's just not saying words properly. So. However, once information is put out to the media and the public, public, the control is gone as to how the press will potentially slant the information. So according to the phrasing of some journalists, they describe Claudia as a scarlet woman or a home wrecker. Her romantic life and alleged affairs were represented in the press as being a key. Of key relevance to her case and her status as a victim. According to a criminology lecturer at Lancaster University, this is Dr. Charlotte Barlow. So according to Dr. Barlow, these negative terms are only really used to ever describe female victims. So this gives a suggestion that somehow this female victim being this, in this case, Claudia, is responsible for their fate.

[Mike]

It's crazy that even, like, I'll make a tick tock about this, somebody be like, yeah, well, you know, she was a hoe. It's like, whatever. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying, for example, somebody might say something, something about a woman, and it's like all of a sudden, it's never okay to like, have somebody abducted and murdered. And like, that's just, we all agree on that. So why are we even focusing on that?

[Allison]

Right?

[Mike]

She could have, like, been with several married men. Not saying she was.

[Allison]

No.

[Mike]

But even so, you don't deserve to be killed.

[Allison]

That's so absurd to me. But that's what happened in Claudia's case.

[Mike]

Like, we can all agree that that's still. She can't be killed no matter what the situation, right? So it's like, okay, well, let's stop talking about that since it doesn't, it doesn't matter, right?

[Allison]

I don't give a damn who she was dating.

[Mike]

Right?

[Allison]

What happened to Claudia, whatever happened to her, she did not deserve.

[Mike]

We can't just take people from their homes and murder them.

[Allison]

So rather, the blame and focus should always be on a perpetrator. I was talking to you about this recently because we were talking about the shame women feel when there's a sexual assault against them. And I said, I wonder where that came from. Like, why? And I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel the way you feel, but I'm just saying, where did that come from? From, like, if I'm attacked and sexually assaulted, why do I have shame?

[Mike]

I. Well, why would you think.

[Allison]

It's got to be the way people are making victims feel. That's what it is.

[Mike]

No, like, let's say it happened to you. Like, why would you not come forward initially if you. I mean, you probably would, right? You want to think that you would, but, like, what are some reasons you might not. You don't want people to think about you in a certain way.

[Allison]

Maybe I don't want to be looked at as a victim, right? But honestly, back in the day, there was a lot of talk about what a victim was wearing when they were attacking. Attacked. As if that should matter. I don't care if I have a fraking bikini on while I'm walking down the street. Don't effing touch me.

[Mike]

Right?

[Allison]

Is what it comes.

[Mike]

It doesn't. It's not like, free range. Like, oh, man, this chick can be fondled. Nope, nope, still can't. We're still in a society, right?

[Allison]

So the point is, all of this negativity that was being swirled in the media about innocent Claudia, all it did was tarnish her reputation and intensify the pain that her already grieving family was facing. Facing. So according to police, they believe that over the years, Claudia had several lovers, something that wouldn't be unusual for a single woman who was dating. So when there were suggestions made that she was the other woman, she was painted in the press as someone that her friends didn't even recognize. They were like, this is not Claudia.

[Mike]

All right? You gotta ask the sisters that hang out at the pub. Like, is this who she was? Like, ask them. They would really know her. They talk to her every single day. Single day.

[Allison]

Exactly. So the. The way that Claudia was being depicted in the press was not at all who she was as a person. Susie firmly believes that if this had been a man that went missing, their lifestyle, their dating routine would never have been broached.

[Mike]

And it. While it may have been, and it may have Been probably celebrated a little bit being like, this is a man of the town. He was, you know, well liked and he was attracted many women. That's what it would be. And I know it would be. And that's horrible, and I'm sorry.

[Allison]

Disgusting. So according to Jen, when the media began focusing on her friend's personal relationships, they no longer highlighted the fact that Claudia was a wonderful person. A loving daughter, a sister, a friend, and a chef who went to work each and every day, regardless of the fact if she woke up feeling terrible, she didn't want to leave her co workers in the dust. Like, I know stepped up and covered holidays for people.

[Mike]

I know we always sensationalize and, like, try to remember people as really good people, but it genuinely sounds like she was a pretty decent human.

[Allison]

Yeah, absolutely. And obviously we highlight people's good points when they die because everybody was. What did they say? Don't ever be a ray of sunshine. Or like, if you light up a room, don't light up a room because you will die.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

That's like a, a joke. Because everyone who's been murdered lit up a room. But the point is, her reputation was being terribly tarnished in a way that was just outlandish to everyone who knew Claudia.

[Mike]

It's almost like it benefited the police a little, little bit since they haven't found her, you know, and it's like, it's almost like, yeah, well, you know, she didn't matter as much because of this and this. It's like, okay.

[Allison]

So the North Yorkshire Police began to focus on the motive of jealousy and revenge, thinking that, you know, maybe somebody who had a bone to pick with her in their relationship came back to. To do something to Claudia. They thought maybe it was someone she met at the Nag's Head because it was four doors down from where she lived. She did spend a lot of time socializing there.

[Mike]

Absolutely.

[Allison]

And this included men going on dates and things like that.

[Mike]

That's where people go to meet people and talk, especially culturally in the uk, that the pub, that's like the local place to hang. And like, if you're in town from somewhere, you go to the pub and go meet some people and you're drinking and talking. A lot of socializing.

[Allison]

Right. And sometimes when you're a single person, it only makes sense to get your bite to eat at the pub rather than grocery shopping and cooking. It's more expensive than even just grabbing something to eat there.

[Mike]

Talk to your friends and then you might meet the love of your life, who knows, Right?

[Allison]

So the establishment was not, not just a pub, but it was also a hotel. And bed sheets were taken by authorities while regulars were interviewed, but nothing came of this. So theories began to swirl about the University of York's Ron Cook Hub. And this is a building on campus that was being constructed in 2009 with an intended purpose of serving as a gathering spot for creativity and interaction. It's this beautiful building. I think it was like £21 million to build, build. So the point is, it was actively under construction at the time that Claudia went missing. So there were speculations, theories that maybe Claudia was involved with someone who was helping to build this hub, staying at.

[Mike]

The hotel and all that stuff.

[Allison]

Exactly. So there were theories that maybe she had been murdered and they knew that this was the time to do it because they knew that concrete was being poured. So that there's theories that maybe her body was dumped in an area where then concrete was poured.

[Mike]

Can you imagine?

[Allison]

It's awful. So as time continued to pass, leads started to dwindle, as they do, because time goes on, memories fade, Vic, you know, possible suspects might die, they might move, whatever. So as time continued to go on, the force scaled down the investigation in July of 2010. And then by the following February, Crime Stopped rappers withdrew its 10,000 pound reward, which I personally feel is really shitty.

[Mike]

Well, they probably had to put it to another case that was more likely to be solved, perhaps. It's not like they have unlimited money.

[Allison]

Right, yeah, I get it, but I don't know, it just kind of makes it feel like Claudia is no longer important at this time.

[Mike]

It's a tough situation.

[Allison]

So according to Galloway, he remained haunted by Claudia's case and speculated that he could have potentially unknowingly spoken to her murderer. Of course, very possible. So in 2013, four years after Claudia vanished, a newly established Major Crime Unit took a fresh look at Claudia's case under the supervision of Detective Superintendent D Mullen. So he completed his review of Claudia's case for the North Yorkshire Police and concluded that the person or people responsible in her disappearance were likely very close with her. Her likely part of her everyday life.

[Mike]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a. Any part of any secret force or anything, but that's the first thing you think of. It's like somebody in her inner circle, somebody she knew, somebody that was targeting her.

[Allison]

So it was either well planned or there was a large element of luck that allowed them to get away with it, meaning they were somehow not spotted on any cctv. It's like they knew where the camera footage was, they knew to grab her.

[Mike]

At this place or just so happened they. Wherever they grabbed her, there was. There was none.

[Allison]

Right. Well, that would be the element of luck. So he feels that they were probably helped by the fact that some that were close to Claudia withheld key information. I'm not talking about Susie or Jen, but just people in her lives just didn't come forward with information. They felt that they were holding back from something. So Melon's team spent two years digging up new leads and theories, the most significant of which considered the idea that whatever happened to Claudia, Claudia happened on Wednesday, March 18, 2009, rather than what the initial investigators believed, that what happened to her happened on Thursday while she was on her way to work.

[Mike]

Those whites being gone, like her clothing, that just reeks of her going to work.

[Allison]

Right.

[Mike]

I mean, there's. It's such a. I don't know why else they would be gone. And you could say the murderer took them to make it look like she went to work. But, like, who the hell would think that far ahead? Like, most of the. These murderers are idiots, so they, they barely get away with things. I don't know.

[Allison]

Especially if it's a crime of passion. Like if the person came over to Claudia's house not intending to murder her, but then they got into an argument and snapped.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

You know, then they would have time, though, you know, because, well, there's time.

[Mike]

It's just. Would you think that far ahead?

[Allison]

I mean, if you want to cover up a crime, you.

[Mike]

You take her. Her, like credit cards and stuff too.

[Allison]

You would think so. Clive Driscoll also supports this theory and feels that it's more likely that she came into harm over and night rather than in the morning after she left for work. So the point is, we don't know. Did it happen on Wednesday after she hung up the phone with mom? They're chatting about location, location, location. She never responded to that text message at 9:12pm was she simply sleeping or had something happen to her between 8:30pm or whenever she hung up the phone with her mom and 9:12pm yeah, we don't know.

[Mike]

Yeah. And it's completely possible because they did focus on her going to work. And it's like maybe you're missing and looking for the entirely wrong thing the whole time.

[Allison]

Right. So it's possible that after she ended the phone call with her mom and sent her final text on Wednesday night at 8:23pm Something could have gone horribly wrong.

[Mike]

I wish they had a reason to Explain why her clothing was gone.

[Allison]

I know. So Claudia's home was re examined six years after she vanished using techniques that hadn't been available to the original team. So this turned up fingerprints and DNA that remain unidentifiable to this day. Day. But you think about all the people that went through her home after she'd been missing.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

I mean, who knows how many people were touching things, leaving their DNA behind.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So officers comb through the alley behind her home on their hands and knees as it's likely that if something happened to her on Wednesday night, it would have. The person would have utilized the alley.

[Mike]

Sure.

[Allison]

The point is like this. They're on their hands and knees. Knees. So many years after this is six years after. We're talking about snow, rain, whatever kind of, you know, things may have been back there could completely be degraded by this time.

[Mike]

I give them credit for trying.

[Allison]

Yeah, I do too. But I guess I wonder why weren't people on their hands and knees six years earlier?

[Mike]

Yep. Because you can't go back and change things.

[Allison]

I think they were just so dead on the fact that they thought whatever happened to Claudia happened after. After she left her house on Thursday morning. And that's why they weren't on their hands and knees in that alleyway.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

So the rear the. Excuse me. The review also unearthed additional CCTV image that was similar to those released in the original investigation of that man that I mentioned that was seen near Claudia's home on Thursday morning, walking behind her house in the alley at 5:07am and then coming out one minute later. So the new footage was recorded by the same camera during the prediction previous evening and appeared to show the same man. And I did see images of the guy Thursday morning versus Wednesday evening that look like the exact same person. So he walked onto Heworth Place. Place, excuse me, and out of shot before reappearing about a minute later. He stopped briefly while someone up ahead walked across the road as almost like he didn't want to intentionally cross paths with this person. So this footage was re recorded on Wednesday, March 18th at 7:15pm, just about an hour before Claudia spoke with her parents on the phone. So at that point in time she was alive and well. We know that for sure. But it's just odd that this person was trolling around the back of her house Wednesday at 7:15 and then again Thursday morning at 5:07am what was he doing? That's the question. Was he scoping it out? Was he seeing?

[Mike]

And obviously they haven't seen him before that or after that. Right. Because they would probably look at the.

[Allison]

Cameras and you would imagine, but I don't know how often they were recorded over or whatever. They did have that footage of the men that were staring down and up one week earlier. The pointy nose. Yeah, exactly. So in 2014, five years after Claudia vanished, police made the for their first arrests. So in the weeks before she vanished, Claudia's phone had been traced to an area in North Shields on Tyneside, where a home was searched and then the seller of the Acomb pub in York was also dug up. Why they thought those things they never released the details of. But regardless, nothing suspicious was found when they dug up the cellar. So a 59 year old man was held on suspicion of murder. Murder. And a 46 year old man was held on suspicion of perverting the course of justice. I will tell you that both were released later that year without charge. So over the years a total of nine men have been arrested in connection with Claudia's disappearance, but none have faced any charges. There were also suggestions that she may have been the victim of a serial killer named Christopher Halliwell. So the same year a police. Excuse me, police received or released CCTV footage of a car that was seen near Claudia his home on Thursday morning, March 19th. It was an old style silver Ford Focus that was driving along along Heweth road at about 5:42 in the morning and then it was seen breaking as approached her home. I will tell you, had she been leave around that area at 5:42 she was definitely going to be late for work.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So investigators have also attempted to find the owner of a white Vauxhall Astra, which is a compact car car. It was seen on CCTV on Wednesday night, March 18th. It was parked opposite of Claudia's house at 9:01pm it remained there for at least 30 minutes until it drove off at 9:37pm so this is right in the time frame of the last text message that Claudia received versus the one that she did not answer. And just like always, the owners of both of these cars have never been found.

[Mike]

Well, now they're too far gone. You know, and I don't know if they were looking at that footage before, but it's years and years later.

[Allison]

You know, it's very possible that it has absolutely nothing to do with Claudia's case. And it's also very possible that it does.

[Mike]

Well, yeah, and if I'm anybody in that area and I hear that nine men have been arrested and nobody charged, I'm not telling the police, anything.

[Allison]

Which is sad, you know, because if you were dropping a casserole off at your girlfriend's house and you had nothing to do with what you know your car was there for, at this point.

[Mike]

I the zero chance I'd come forward. I'm sorry, but that's. I don't want to be arrested and detained and away from my. My family.

[Allison]

So. The following year, in 2015, hopes were elevated when four local men who frequented the Nag's Head were arrested on suspicion of murder. However, In March of 2016, the Crown Prosecution Service abandoned the proceedings, citing a lack of evidence. So in late 2018, nine years after she vanished, police announced that attempts to obtain DNA from a cigarette butt that was found in Claudia's car car had come without matches. So Claudia herself was not a smoker. And according to her mom, she would have never allowed someone to sit in the car with her and smoke because she hated the smell of it. You know, her car was in the shop at the time that she disappeared. But you know, whose cigarette butt was this? It'd be very strange if you found a cigarette butt in my car.

[Mike]

Oh, absolutely.

[Allison]

Because I don't smoke and ain't nobody smoking in my sweet pot, baby Jade.

[Mike]

Well, it used to be the same for me until I started smoking.

[Allison]

Yeah, you're doing it behind my back.

[Mike]

Wink, wink. No judge.

[Allison]

So despite the thousands of names and statements that were recorded, hundreds of interviews and searches, police were still missing the crucial piece of the puzzle. Detective Mallon has no doubt that there are people who know or have strong suspicions about what happened to Claudia. Because people are not very smart. They like to talk, talk. You know, they might get intoxicated one night and spill something.

[Mike]

Especially the pub culture. If it's anything to do with the pub, somebody probably came by and once said something, whether it's that pub or somewhere else nearby, like, come forward with any idiot that said something about it.

[Allison]

Right. But for whatever reason, they're not coming forward. Maybe they're afraid that they might come into harm's way.

[Mike]

Yeah, because you arrested nine people, so obviously you're happy to arrest anybody that might have something to do, like maybe do better police work. Man, that's crazy. Like, just me not even knowing about this. There's no way I'd come forward. I said it again, it's crazy.

[Allison]

So, as it stands, Claudia's case is in what is known as a reactive phase, meaning that it will only be reviewed if new information comes to light. While Chief Inspector Clive Driscoll believes that the Case would benefit from an independent review, possibly a different force, because it's always good to get someone else's perspective, you know, a fresh set of eyeballs on it, maybe think of something that this other team didn't think of. Of. So this would allow, like I said, new perspectives to potentially provide some answers as to what happened to Claudia. So as a decade went by with no answers, those close to Claudia remained in agony. Peter successfully campaigned for Claudia's law, which allows families to manage a missing relative's finances and property, including his own daughters. Because of his work, he was appointed obe, which is Officer of the most Excellent Order of the British Empire Hire. And this is an award that is given to someone who has made a significant local or national impact. So Claudia's friends grapple with the thought that they may very well know the person responsible for whatever happened to her. And because of this thought, Susie has become withdrawn. She finds social situations impossible. She has pushed people away, likely because she doesn't want to get close to anyone, so that maybe they could just leave her or disappear. You know, it's just got to be so tormenting to know that your best friend just vanished and you have no idea what happened to her or who is responsible.

[Mike]

You look around, it could be anybody.

[Allison]

I would assume you'd get pretty paranoid.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So according to Joan, she refuses to believe that her daughter is dead because she doesn't have this cutoff feeling. And when she wakes up and she checks the forecast, she thinks of her daughter.

[Mike]

Water.

[Allison]

When it's a snowy day, she knows that Claudia wouldn't have liked it because she hated the cold. When she wanders through a grocery store and she sees tulips, this is Claudia's favorite flower, she thinks of her. She refuses to give up hope that one day she will find out what happened to her daughter. Claudia would have celebrated her 51st birthday in February of this year, 2025, a time when a new officer, Detective Superintendent John Skygrove. Excuse me. Scigra. Took over as senior officer for the investigation. Despite the passage of so many years, Cygrove urges anyone with information to come forward as it's never too late to do the right thing. Every new piece of information is carefully investigated. And according to the North Yorkshire Police, they will never give up on the search for the truth. Claudia's disappearance in 2009 prompted the largest and most complex missing person case in history. History within the North. Excuse me, North Yorkshire police force. For 16 years, her family has felt pain and despair not knowing where their daughter or sister is. Sadly, Peter Lawrence, Claudia's father, he passed away at age 74 in February of 2021 without ever knowing what happened to his daughter. And Joan is now in her 80s, and she describes her life without Claudia as a sentence that she never fast fathomed could go on for this long. The podcast Answers for Claudia has uncovered new details about Claudia's disappearance, including the fact that the backpack that Claudia was last seen wearing was found by a woman who had been out walking her dog days after Claudia vanished. So the bag was sitting beside a tree stump near River Tees at Ingleby Barwick. So this is about 40 minutes from York. And it contained, because a lady looked inside the bag, backpack, it contained foil wrapped sandwiches. So when the woman saw an article about Claudia that included the description of her missing backpack, she realized, oh my goodness, that's the backpack I saw sitting there. She went back to that location. The bag was gone. Now we have no idea. Is it 100 Claudia's bag that that woman saw? Who knows?

[Mike]

Did she normally bring tin foiled sandwiches to work? These are questions that need to be asked. Yeah, I don't know.

[Allison]

So Answers for Claudia released its first of 13 episodes on April 30, 2024, with the most recent episode released on August 18, 2025. It's a podcast that's hosted by journalist Tom McDermotts. So to this day, Claudia's home on Heworth Road remains frozen in time, preserved in hopes that she will one day return. And that's just the sad fact that her family is just suspended, ended, not knowing. Anytime you lose someone you love, there is major grief associated with it. But to have someone vanish without a trace and not have any idea what happened to them. Were they taken from their home? Were they abducted by a stranger along the way? Were they poured into concrete? Are they still alive and being held captive somewhere, that has to be a, A, a horrible kind of hell that I can't even imagine. So there is no judgment at all towards Joan, who wants to keep her daughter's home preserved, thinking maybe one day she'll come home. And that's just so sad to me. So it's kind of interesting and it's, well, it's, this is another sad side. But people are breaking into Claudia's home. There's been at least three break ins, one as recently as September of 2025.

[Mike]

Well, nobody lives there, right?

[Allison]

Yeah. And then there's just like little things that Joan will see, like there was a little ticket stub on the floor that she knows wasn't There, some of Claudia's undergarments have been messed with. There's been tapes that have been moved and set on a dresser that they weren't there before. Things shifted around in her closet and that sort of thing. So when Joan returned to her daughter's home recently with Tom McDermott for the podcast, they found a secret loft in January of 2025. So this loft was found above clothing behind closed door or closet doors. So when Tom went inside, he found yellow insulation material as well as a table leg. So he passed this information on to John Sygrove, not knowing. Did the police even know that this room existed? So Joan is just very apprehensive about investigators and she really feels hesitant for them to search her daughter's home again unsupervised. She feels that they've previously failed her. So, you know, she has her reasons for feeling the way she does.

[Mike]

Sure.

[Allison]

So officers did tell Tom that during the initial investigation, they used a camera device to take a quick look inside the secret loft. They never actually went into it. It might have nothing to do with Claudia's case, I guess.

[Mike]

Nothing.

[Allison]

Probably not.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So the podcast also heard from a woman who was going by the pseudonym Lucy, and she indicated that she was in a previously abusive relationship. And during an argument with this man over papers regarding a property, he threatened her. And he said, sign the effing documents, otherwise I will get the gypsies to come and get you. They'll feed you to the pigs. There won't be any evidence left of you because the pigs will eat everything, including the bones, just like what they did to Claudia Lawrence. So the woman also claims that it is her ex partner who was the mystery man seen on CCTV outside of Claudia's his house on the night that she disappeared. Although the footage is hard to make out, she says she is 100 sure because she recognizes his distinctive looking, stooped walk. Is it possible?

[Mike]

You know, possibly. This woman also seems like she's got a lot of things to say, so it's interesting.

[Allison]

So Joan has remained in her home in Melton because Claudia knows her address, she knows her phone number, and she hopes that one, one day her daughter will come home. She also keeps her landline running since Claudia knows it by heart and she believes that her daughter is out there and that she may have been abducted. Maybe she's being held somewhere. But 16 years have gone by. So anyone with information that could assist in investigating in. In this investigation is urged to come forward and can do so anonymously at www.crimestop shoppers-uk.org and then please quote Claudia Lawrence. Excuse me. When providing details. And although 16 years may have gone by since Claudia went missing, someone out there knows something and her family deserves answers, and that is the sad and tragic disappearance of Claudia Lawrence that remains unsolved to this day.

[Mike]

Yeah, man. A lot of things to think about. Like, I, I kept saying, I know it's, you know, you might be thinking like, Mike, you're like, potentially hurting people from coming forward for things. But I wouldn't go to the police with anything. But there's better options, like this. Crimestoppers.uk.org that's a much better option to go towards. Or Also this Tom McDermott podcaster guy who's a journalist. I don't know if he's like a real, like a study journalist or not, but whatever. I think, you know, he's clearly looking for things to bring up on the podcast with the attic and thing that was interesting, but I would go to him or Crime Stoppers. Like, if you feel Crime Stoppers is too close to the police that are just looking to arrest you, somebody then just go to Tom McDermott and tell him. And I'm sure he'll keep things very quiet, but he'll have more information and he'll be able to pass it on to the right authorities. So I think that'd be the best way to go now. And we've got Joan, unfortunately, man. I mean, you know, I don't know if this is good for her to keep all these hopes alive. You know, I think closure, I don't know, psychologically, hopefully she's talking to the therapist. It's got to be very, very crushing. I mean, just not to have any answers. I, you know, I think we all can realize that she's probably never coming home, unfortunately. And. But if it helps Joan to keep things alive, whatever you got to do to. To just keep your. Yourself going.

[Allison]

Yeah, I can't even imagine. You know, you have children and you have these images of them having these happy life, and Claudia was doing that. She was a happy woman. She was a chef. She was doing it and living her life. And then one day you talk to your daughter in the evening, and that's the last time you hear from her. Her. She just vanishes. They don't truly even know. Did something happen to her Wednesday night after she hung up the phone with her mom? Or did it happen on Thursday on her way to work?

[Mike]

It's got to be Thursday on the way to work. Those whites that she had to wear to work. I. Like that's got to be it. I. I don't know why, it's just. Yeah, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. But so, so terrible. I mean, just such a cool girl that's just young and got her whole life ahead of her. And how many stories do we tell like this just end so terribly.

[Allison]

Yeah. Just sad. So I just hold out hope that one day they'll get answers as to what happened to Claudia, where she is. Maybe she could be laid to rest and her parents or her mom now who's in her 80s, could have some sense of closure. If closure exists. I don't know. But at least to know where Claudia is.

[Mike]

Yeah. And I don't know if you're curious at all, but I googled like why would a victim not come forward? And they said number one is the brain under trauma often creates confusion and self blame. Like, why didn't I do something? Maybe I somehow let this happen.

[Allison]

I wish that couldn't be be the case. I wish we could like change the way that. It's like a person who's attacked by someone is never at fault. It's always the attacker that is at fault.

[Mike]

Absolutely.

[Allison]

And no one should feel shame. Easy for me to say.

[Mike]

I mean, stories like this bring it up. It's like now we're dragging her name through the mud, cuz maybe she had a good time and was young and fun.

[Allison]

Yeah. And she had every right to be out dating.

[Mike]

Absolutely. Like, you're single. I mean, yeah, maybe. Maybe you shouldn't be dating married men. Which we don't know if she did or not, but either way, whatever. Yeah, so. And then most victims predict they'll not be believed because maybe alcohol was related. The perpetrator was someone they knew and there was no physical injuries. They're like, sweep it under the rug, whatever, you know, it's. And then shame is a powerful silencer.

[Allison]

Yeah. And I'm not blaming a person for feeling the way that they do by any means.

[Mike]

I hope to never know that feeling. I know as a man, it's, you know, almost a zero percent chance, but as a woman, that's. That's got to be terrible. I'm sorry. So.

[Allison]

But anyway, thank you guys so much for being here, for listening, for supporting us. We appreciate each and every one of you and we have bonus content. Every single Wednesday there's a new episode. If you would like to hear those episodes, you can join us over at Apple Subscriptions or Patreon. And also, if you wouldn't mind leaving us a five star review over on.

[Mike]

Apple and maybe Tippy type a couple words in there too. It's the very bottom. I think you scroll to the very bottom of Apple podcasts and and just like there's stars and then says submit a review or something like that. You could type Tippy Tappy hello. Thank you. These guys are cool and fun. Listen to them right now. Subscribe. Make sure you're subscribed to us too. That'd be great.

[Allison]

And if you wanna watch us over on YouTube, we would greatly appreciate that too. So thank you guys so much and until next time.

[Howie Mandel]

Bye.

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[Mike]

Happy Holidays. Want to give your host a gift?

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[Mike]

All of us at Believe.

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