The murder of Josh Hilberling | Ep 225

Summary

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Crime and Coffee Couple – The Murder of Josh Hilberling | Ep 225

Podcast: Crime and Coffee Couple
Hosts: Allison and Mike
Episode: The murder of Josh Hilberling | Ep 225
Date: December 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the tragic and complicated case of the murder of Josh Hilberling, delving into a volatile marriage marked by mutual abuse, culminating in the fatal fall of Josh from the 25th floor of a Tulsa high-rise. Hosts Allison and Mike balance compassionate storytelling with candid observation, discussing domestic violence from both male and female perspectives, legal outcomes, and the tragedy that affected both families—ultimately leaving a child without parents. The episode is a listener suggestion from Michelle.

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Key Discussion Points & Timeline

Banter and Warm-Up [01:33–08:52]

• Discussion about hosts' pet’s recent injury and veterinary drama.
• Classic Mike and Allison playful banter about coffee, snacks, and household quirks.
• Light, humorous exchanges about “Stranger Things,” binge-watching “All Her Fault” with Dakota Fanning, and foot fetishes:
  • “I’m not a foot person by any means.” — Allison [06:57]
• Transition into the episode’s main topic, referencing coffee’s “steamy” darkness as a metaphor for the case.

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Introducing the Case [09:01–13:59]

• Listener Michelle suggested the case.
• Prevalence and forms of domestic violence, emphasizing that men are also victims:
  • “Reports indicate that 37% of all domestic abuse victims within the United States are men.” — Allison [10:47]
  • “It hurts you if you do that.” — Mike, on repressing emotions [11:31]
• Personal anecdotes about “flying your freak flag” and keeping it real in long marriages.

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Backgrounds of Josh and Amber [13:59–16:36]

• Josh Hilberling: Born May 30, 1988 (Tulsa), ex-football star, Air Force service.
• Amber Fields: Born October 1, 1991 (Missouri), academically strong, moved to Tulsa at 3 months, raised by mother and a well-off stepfather (plastic surgeon).
• Fast-paced romance; marriage expedited due to Air Force housing rules.

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Marriage, Isolation, and Escalation [16:36–18:01]

• Marriage and move to Fairbanks, Alaska isolated Amber, her loneliness contributing to a quick deterioration of the relationship.
• Amber becomes pregnant (baby Levi), the couple returns to Tulsa.
• Move into unique high-rise (University Club Tower) owned by Amber’s stepfather while waiting for their house to finish construction.

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The Incident: June 7, 2011 [18:01–23:22]

• Neighbor (Nathan McGowan) hears Amber screaming “No, no, no,” followed by crashing glass—originally mistaken for a shattering table or fish tank.
• Josh falls out their 25th-floor window—plummets 17 stories to an 8th-floor parking garage.
• Early speculation: suicide; that quickly shifts as Amber is overheard sobbing she pushed Josh.
• Amber’s Dr. Phil interview claims fight over Josh’s travel plans and suspected pill dealing—later disproven as Josh had no drugs/alcohol in his system [18:24–19:36].
• Timeline leading up to fatal argument: Josh tries to leave, calls his father and friend for a ride.
• Maintenance visit for broken window (from previous argument), window deemed hazardous.

Memorable Moment

• “She just kept coming in and out. She appeared to be very angry every time.” — Armando (repairman), on Amber’s disposition [21:06]

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Immediate Aftermath and Amber’s Admission [23:22–27:16]

• Amber rushes to Josh’s body, cradling him, repeatedly telling first responders, “I pushed him.”
• At the police station, Amber’s conversation with her grandmother is recorded:
  • “I pushed him and he fell into the, like, candlestick things and he fell out the window.” — Amber [25:57]
• Her grandmother tries to curb self-incrimination: “Amber, quit saying that you pushed Josh out of the window.” [26:56]
• Context of prior abuse: Josh had sought help from Domestic Violence Intervention Services only a month prior; had filed for a protective order.

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The Cycle of Abuse – Conflicting Allegations [27:16–31:58]

• Both families claim their child was the abused party:
  • Amber’s mother refers to Josh as an “abuser and manipulator.”
  • Police had responded multiple times to previous physical altercations, including Amber being subject to assault even while pregnant.
  • On the flip side, Josh’s reports: Amber pushed him down stairs, hit him with a lamp (requiring stitches/staples), punched him.
• “Love shouldn’t hurt.” — Allison [31:46]
  • Both hosts stress the importance of recognizing and leaving abusive relationships.

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Arrest, Bail, and Pretrial Behavior [31:58–36:59]

• Amber arrested, charged (initially first-degree, then second-degree murder).
• Released on bond; repeatedly violates terms by letting ankle monitor battery die and diluting urine samples for drug tests; eventually re-jailed, then released again with stricter conditions.

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Trial, Testimonies & Competing Narratives [36:59–50:15]

• Trial details:
  • Amber turns down a 5-year plea deal (“I’m not going to admit to guilt when I haven’t done it.”) [37:47]
  • Her police statement (recorded with grandma) omitted any claim of self-defense; at trial, claims Josh grabbed her shoulders, she pushed him to protect herself and unborn child.
  • “If she wasn’t a complete idiot, that would have been a great story to tell.” — Mike [39:19]
  • Evidence discrepancies: House photos show candlesticks undisturbed, no apartment disarray.
• Debate over physical plausibility:
  • “How in the hell did she have enough force to like, push him that hard?” — Mike [40:13]
• Prosecution: Amber knew how weak the windows were after the earlier break, acted in anger.
• Defense: Windows were dangerously subpar (single-strength glass, not to code for a high-rise).
• Window expert: Glass “used for picture frames.” — Allison [42:29]
• Weather and structural factors described: Heat, wind, and pressure likely compromised glass integrity further.

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Events Leading to Verdict [50:15–51:36]

• Jury must decide: accident or murder?
• The likely sequence: argument, victim packing to leave, Amber pushes him (possibly running into him), weak window shatters, fatal fall.

Notable Dialogue

• “She probably didn’t want to kill him, but she did.” — Mike, on the tragic accident [51:14]

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Verdict and Aftermath [51:36–54:21]

• Amber convicted of second-degree murder, sentenced to 25 years. (Prosecution notes symmetry: 25 years for the 25th floor.)

• Josh’s parents awarded custody of Levi.

• After ~3.5 years in prison, Amber found dead by suicide—meth in her system, but official ruling was suicide by hanging.

• Family social media reactions:

  • “We know how it feels to lose a child. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. … It’s something no parent should ever have to experience.” — Hilberling family [53:10]
  • “I hate what this world did to you. Go rest in the arms of Jesus. The media, the haters, the Hilberlings, they got their wish. … I will never stop fighting for the truth.” — Amber’s mother, Rhonda [52:59]

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Reflections on Domestic Violence & Relationship Dynamics [54:21–58:03]

• The hosts reflect on cyclical blame, “victim mindset,” and the toxicity of some relationships:
  • “It’s not passionate, it’s toxic. And there’s a difference there.” — Allison [56:08]
• Critical discussion of “blaming the world” versus personal responsibility.
• Emphasis: Abuse is never justified, regardless of gender.
  • “Please try to find a way out.” — Allison/Mike [41:18, 58:38]

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Reports indicate that 37% of all domestic abuse victims within the United States are men.” — Allison [10:47]
• “I pushed him and he fell into the, like, candlestick things and he fell out the window.” — Amber (to her grandmother) [25:57]
• “Love shouldn’t hurt.” — Allison [31:46]
• “She probably didn’t want to kill him, but she did.” — Mike [51:14]
• “It’s not passionate, it’s toxic. And there’s a difference there.” — Allison [56:08]

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Conclusion and Resources

• Recap: Neither party was innocent; mutual abuse led to an irreparable tragedy; both families and especially their son Levi suffer the consequences.
• Strong advocacy for seeking help with domestic violence:
  • National Domestic Violence Hotline: [phone] or text BEGIN to 88788

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Tone & Style

The hosts’ trademark blend of quirky banter, compassion, and unflinching honesty remains present throughout, easing into dark content with sensitivity for the victims and their families. Their candid reflections and moments of humor offer levity without diminishing the seriousness of the topic.

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For Further Information

• More episodes and case suggestions: crimeandcoffeecouple.com

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Note: This summary omits ad reads, intros, outros, and promotional content (timestamps reflect only the main episode content).

Transcript

[Mike]

Hey, this is Michael Rosenbaum. Hey, guys. Tom Welling. Look, we've both played heroes and we both played villains. But in the real life, there are no re shoots, no stuntmen or sequels. We all make mistakes. We're all human. Making one bad decision can not only land you in jail, but could also put yourself and other people around you in serious risk. Be smart. Make a plan. Catch a ride. Stay put. Don't let a high moment turn into a lifetime of regret. This holiday season, be your own hero. If you feel different, you drive different. Drive high. Get a DUI.

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[Allison]

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode with the Crime and Coffee couple. My name's Allison.

[Mike]

And my name's Mike.

[Allison]

Hi, Mike.

[Mike]

Hey, Al. How are you, babe?

[Allison]

I am doing well. How are you doing?

[Mike]

Good, good. You got our little sharky on your lap. She's just looking for some love today, huh?

[Allison]

I know. She was sitting in her little bed and she was like headbutting me. So I was like, okay, I guess she wants to sit on my lap now.

[Mike]

Man, I'm scratching her head. She's just like laying into it. She's not usually like that.

[Allison]

She's ready for her nap. And speaking of our little pup, we were telling our bonus listeners that over Thanksgiving she swan dove off the friggin couch about 4ft high because I was yelling at our cat for chewing on one of our outdoor plants. Yeah, so she wanted to go take care of things.

[Mike]

How dare you.

[Allison]

With the cats. And she ended up hurting her little leg. I had my hands, like all up and stuffing and oh, my gosh, it.

[Mike]

Was like rose it up her little leg or back leg, or I call it her driver's side back leg. And yeah, it was just like limping up and I was like, oh, no. And in my head, of course, me, first thing, I'm like, man, this better not cost like $5,000.

[Allison]

Like, it's the holiday, we can't go to the emergency vet. And let me check Chip.

[Mike]

Then I did, and turned out to be was pretty accurate.

[Allison]

So, yeah, so thank goodness we got her in the next morning. So we kept her immobile is what the recommendation was. And then the next morning we got her into the vet and thank goodness she would just strained her ligament rather than tore it.

[Mike]

Yeah. So good news. Now we have to give her shots, like week or for now, twice a.

[Allison]

Week, for four weeks. We have to give her an injection for osteoarthritis. He saw that on the X ray and she's only five years old. So he said it's a very early stages, but if we do nothing, then she's going to start developing, you know, pain and swelling and things like that. So he was telling us about these two drugs that greatly help with the arthritis. Yeah, One is injected once a month at the vats. The other one we have to inject twice a week for four weeks at home and then once a month. And she was all hyped up at the vet because she had been there for hours. She had gotten X ray, she'd been sedated. So when we tested the injection ourself, she was like, squealing. I was profusely sweating. I get, like, immediately nauseous and I want to dry heave. So I told Mike, I'm like, you and Cameron, our son, you guys have to do this for me. I have to go into another room and pretend it's not happening.

[Mike]

Like, what I gotta have to do is take her skin and her shoulder, like, tent it up and make like a teepee or triangle, I guess. Whatever, whatever. Poke it into that and then take the syringe out to test for negative pressure, is what the nurse was telling me. And, yeah, you take it out just a little bit with your thumb and it goes back in, meaning that you have, like a good stick and then you jab it in there. And six pounds of her does not appreciate a pin being stuck in her.

[Allison]

No, it does. She does not. And I just can't stand to see her in any kind of distress. It's. I was so sick to my stomach on Thanksgiving. It was not even funny.

[Mike]

Yeah, so sad. Well, just to kind of talk about something else real quick, I got my fresh coffee this morning and it turns out that I'm married to an absolute animal. Like just an uncaged animal. Because I went to go get some more beans to freshly grind my beans. And the thing, the bag is just ripped open with no care whatsoever.

[Allison]

I actually use scissors.

[Mike]

That didn't look like it at all. It looked like you were just like.

[Allison]

He opens it, he goes, what the. Who the hell? And that first started, like, looking around the room.

[Mike]

Like the first person I thought of was our son Cameron. That's how bad it looked. Not that Cameron doesn't know how to open bags.

[Allison]

Oh, he's an animal.

[Mike]

Yeah. But if you're thinking anim and something crazy in the house, like Ham's the guy that probably did it right. But no, it turns out my wife. You know, when we're young, you used to. What really just grinded my gears bad was that when you were. We used to open bags of chips, like really small, like just a tiny little bit.

[Allison]

You had to like wedge your hand and your fist. You had to like close your fists, like a little claw and get it in there.

[Mike]

Yeah. And like, I was like, why don't just open the whole bag? Like, it's not going to. Like, if the thing stays open, it's going to be open. It's going to go stale.

[Allison]

I didn't want them to go stale.

[Mike]

But your whole family did that. And they also leave the top on the Pringles cans, the little, little foil thing. So like, it's a family thing. You just kind of get used to it and the whole family does it.

[Allison]

It's like one of those things when you're raised in a way you think everyone does it. And then you go to someone else's house and you're like, huh, I guess everyone doesn't do this.

[Mike]

Another thing, the peanut cans, like if a. A jar of planters. And they always keep the foil on the top.

[Allison]

I don't, I, I keep it off.

[Mike]

Your dad does.

[Allison]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I was just like, you don't. I mean, this is actually preventing it from sealing correctly.

[Allison]

So when Mike was like, who the hell did the coffee? I was like, oh, it must have have been Cameron. But don't ask him about it. And if you do, he'll just be lying if he says it wasn't him.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

It was me.

[Mike]

Yeah, I can't stand that. But hey, you know what? I guess every once in a while.

[Allison]

You know, we can't all be perfect all the time. Like you.

[Mike]

Definitely not me. Don't worry about it. Oh, and if you want to see YouTube, I shaved my head today. So you want to see a goodlook guy. 46 year old and very little hair. Yeah. Ladies, keep in mind I am married to this beautiful man.

[Allison]

So, ladies, hands off, okay? He is all mine.

[Mike]

Yeah, I get a lot of DMS from the ladies that are just like, hey, what? How much to send me, you know, some feet pics? And I was just like, not going to happen. Especially after the Thanksgiving pictures I posted. Some feet.

[Allison]

Yeah. Someone was like, oh, you put the dogs in for free. You know, those are worth a lot of money.

[Mike]

Lots of money.

[Allison]

So you got to keep those under wraps. Otherwise, I think you probably. If you hadn't eaten Thanksgiving dinner up until that point, you may have gagged a little in your mouth. Probably seeing Mike's naked toes.

[Mike]

Yeah, they're not bad toes.

[Allison]

No, they're not. You have nice feet.

[Mike]

Yeah. You think they're all right?

[Allison]

I'm not a foot person by any means.

[Mike]

No.

[Allison]

I'm always fascinated by people who have this foot fetish. I'm like, why?

[Mike]

Hey, everybody's got their thing.

[Allison]

Whatever.

[Mike]

No judgment.

[Allison]

No judgment by me. I'm just, why?

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not a foot guy either, just so you guys know. I mean, I'm not saying anything bad about him, but, like, I'm not. I'm defending anybody who might have something that's interesting.

[Allison]

Yeah, I'm just not a fetish person.

[Mike]

No. You don't like a lot of things.

[Allison]

I don't know. I like a lot of things.

[Mike]

Crime mostly.

[Allison]

Yeah. But I'm just not like, super into a lot of things.

[Mike]

Oh, and real quick, Stranger Things.

[Allison]

So good.

[Mike]

We love that show. I don't know why. I mean, I know why. Because it's amazing.

[Allison]

Well, it's amazing and we started watching it eons ago with our daughter, and obviously there's been three years in between season four and five, so the anticipation was there. It's like, goodness gracious. These kids are going to be like 40 years old if they don't get things going.

[Mike]

Well, Lucas, the. One of the kids on the show, he's got, like, goatee going. You can kind of see it.

[Allison]

Oh. I mean, they're full grown adults. I mean, when you look back to how they looked in season one, they were little kids. They were like 11 years old.

[Mike]

And it's supposed to be like a year later, and it's like, they're supposed.

[Allison]

To be in high school and they're like in their 20s.

[Mike]

Yeah. But like everything happening is like the year after the. The last thing happened. It's like it's the anniversary and it's like you guys look like 10 years older, but yeah, whatever.

[Allison]

It's just a fantastic show. And then the other thing we were binge watching on Peacock, it's called All Her Fault, I believe is what it's called. It's Dakota Fanning.

[Mike]

Great call.

[Allison]

Fantastic. I wasn't feeling good last week and I almost felt like I was getting the flu. I think I had a really hard workout and it almost made me feel sick.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

But we binge watched that show and it was phenomenal.

[Mike]

As true crime fans as all of you are, that that's the number one. Like, go watch it immediately. It's not real. It's not true. It's not. I mean, but it is crying.

[Allison]

It's just a show.

[Mike]

Yeah. Very riveting, I'd say. Just like you want to watch the next episode? What is it called again?

[Allison]

All Her Fault.

[Mike]

All Her Fault on Peacock.

[Allison]

Peacock.

[Mike]

Okay, go, go watch it. Go, go put it in your, like, my list or whatever.

[Allison]

Yeah, it's fantastic. So anyway, are you ready to dive into this cup of coffee?

[Mike]

Let's do it.

[Allison]

It's a hot one.

[Mike]

Is it murky?

[Allison]

It's not mer. Well, it's murky. It's always murky. But I'll use a different adjective. This one's just steamy.

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Hot.

[Mike]

That was my fault.

[Allison]

Typing.

[Mike]

Got it.

[Allison]

All right, so this is a listener suggestion from Michelle. And this is the murder of Josh Hilberling. So as a relationship begins, it's a time when excitement and emotions are at an all time high. We all remember how that feels, that butterfly in the chest, the anticipation of when you're going to see each other next.

[Mike]

That is so far gone for us. So far gone.

[Allison]

I mean, it's just a distant memory that's hazy.

[Mike]

I have to force you for our six second kiss. I read something about science that says, like, couple should kiss for six seconds. I'm like, all right, six second kiss.

[Allison]

You make me out to be be a cold, wicked person.

[Mike]

Okay. I just don't. Let me know when you're not a cold, wicked person and I'll point those things out. I'm just kidding.

[Allison]

So it's very hard to ever predict how this now happy couple will eventually morph into an abusive situation. You can't picture it. So oftentimes signs of Abuse only emerge as time goes by. We all know that honeymoon phase of a relationship. Everyone's on their best behavior. It's like an interview. You're putting your best face forward. You're hiding the things that aren't the best about yourself.

[Mike]

You're not flying your freak flag yet.

[Allison]

Exactly. But as time goes by, sometimes you start to see hints of abuse. And sadly, these things only continue to intensify as the relationship progresses. So since each relationship is different, so different, domestic violence doesn't necessarily always look the same. Sometimes it could be physical abuse. Sometimes it could be mental abuse, or both. So when we hear the term domestic violence, oftentimes our mind goes to a picture of a battered woman at the hands of. Of a man. And that only makes sense because women are much more likely to experience intimate partner violence. However, reports indicate that 37% of all domestic abuse victims within the United States are men.

[Mike]

Wow. That's higher than I thought it is.

[Allison]

And I guarantee you that number is very much underreported. And that's because we live in a world where masculinity is often equated with strength and stoicism. So many male victims choose to stay. Excuse me, Silent in their abuse. From a young age, men are often taught that expressing vulnerability or asking for help is a sign of weakness. So we make sure we always tell our son that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being in touch with your feelings and showing emotion. I don't care if you're male, female, or whatever you identify yourself as. We are human beings, and we feel what we feel. And there's no sense in shoving that emotion down.

[Mike]

It hurts you if you do that.

[Allison]

Right? And even just in the research of this case, there were asinine statements of size differences. It's like, it doesn't matter. I am half your size, and I could still be abusive towards you.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's not acceptable. I mean, that's something that I was clear about. Like, there might have been little tiffs or something, and maybe, like, you accidentally rub against me or whatever.

[Allison]

I've never, ever been a physical person in my entire life.

[Mike]

You threw one rice cake at me.

[Allison]

I threw a rice cake at Mike once when I was not even mad at you. We were in high school, and Mike sister was, like, pushing all the right buttons, and I got so mad, I threw the package of rice cakes, and Mike just happened to be in the path.

[Mike]

Yeah. And so I was just like, hey, listen, I'm not here to be abused. And like, it's rice cakes. Take it Easy.

[Allison]

Take it easy. So this is in this case, happens in 2011. And this is when 23 year old Josh Hilberling, he was in the midst of a tumultuous marriage and it had sadly escalated from, you know, emotional and verbal abuse to physical abuse. And honestly, it sounds like both parties were responsible. So although he had gone to the domestic violence intervention services for help, only one month later, his life would end in a horrifying way at the hands of his wife. So, Josh Hilberling was born on May 30, 1988 in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He had three brothers and two sisters, and he was raised by his dad, Patrick, and his stepmom, Gene Hilberling. And his family described him as a kind person with a witty personality. He was always known to put the needs of other people before his own needs. So during his time in high school, he was a star on the high school football team until he graduated into 2007, and he went on to serve in the United States Air Force. So during a Halloween party the following year after he graduated high school, this is in 2008, Josh first met Amber Fields. And at that moment, he didn't realize that she would become his wife and not only that, but the mother of his child. So it wasn't until two years later in 2010, when they began dating and they quickly fell madly in love. So Amber Fields was born on October 1, 1991, in Missouri to her parents, Rhonda and Michael Fields. And when she was only three months old, they relocated to Tulsa, Oklahoma. So her parents later divorced and they each eventually remarried. Rhonda, who worked as a nurse, she married a plastic surgeon. This is Dr. Brian Whitlock.

[Mike]

Nice.

[Allison]

And meanwhile, Michael later remarried a woman named St. So after the divorce, Amber ended up living with her mom and her stepdad. And they were said to be very well known in the Tulsa area as well as very well off. And I looked up her father, her stepfather, he has his own plastic surgery business.

[Mike]

Yeah, they tend to do well.

[Allison]

So according to her family, Amber was passionate about God, her friends and her family. She was a wonderful student. She maintained a 4.0 grade point average, and she was very active in sports, arts, as well as other extracurricular activities. So after Josh finished his Air Force basic training in Texas, he was given orders to be moved to Islason Air Force Base in Fairbanks, Alaska. So this truly put their relationship on the fast track because in order for them to live together in Fairbanks on the military housing, they would have to be married. So Odds are they probably wouldn't have gotten married that quickly had he not been in the military. So In August of 2010, they were married in a small ceremony at a courthouse until they were able to eventually have a much larger celebration at a country club. So, sadly, after they relocated to Alaska together In October of 2010, the honeymoon phase of their relationship came to a screeching halt. So they found themselves in a location that was not only bitterly cold, but it was also dark much of the time. And it was a place where they had no support from their family and friends and their very young at this point in time. So while Josh is busy, you know, with all of his Air Force duties, Amber, meanwhile, is just at home alone in this military housing. And she felt very isolated at this point in time. So this all just caused the relationship to be very strained and it became volatile. So it was in Alaska when Amber realized that they were expecting their first child together. They found out it was a baby boy, and they ended up naming. Naming him Levi. So as the couple celebrated their first wedding anniversary, Josh had been honorably discharged from the military and they were settling back in Tulsa. So now they're back, at least you know, with their family and the support around them. So they had spent just about a year in Fairbanks. So at this point in time, Amber was seven months pregnant, and the couple moved into this unique 32 story cylindrical tower that had been built in 1966. This is the University Club Tower. And I'm sure if you're in Tulsa, you would know it right away because it really stands out.

[Mike]

Sounds like it.

[Allison]

So the building served as a residential high rise. It had gorgeous views of the Arkansas, or, excuse me, Arkansas River. So while they waited for their house to be finished, Josh and Amber were living in unit 2509 on the 25th floor. So apparently this unit was owned by Amber's stepfather, because he would put his out of town plastic surgery patients in this location while they were recovering before they could fly back home.

[Mike]

Nice.

[Allison]

So, Tuesday, June 7, 2011. It was a scorchingly hot day in Tulsa. And at about 4pm, Nathan McGowan, who was a man who lived in the unit next door to Amber and Josh, he started hearing the sounds of a woman screaming. And she was saying, no, no, no. And following these screams, he heard a loud crash. And he thought maybe it was a glass coffee table or a fish tank that was shattering like a large fish tank. Think. So after that, things became eerily quiet. And then he suddenly heard it, heard shouting. It picked right Back up again. And he heard a woman screaming. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So these sounds that he heard, they had not been the sounds of a coffee table or a fish tank shattering. Instead, it was Josh's body crashing through the living room window of his 25th floor apartment.

[Mike]

Oh, man, that sucks.

[Allison]

So after Falling an unimaginable 17 floors, his body landed on an 8th floor parking garage that was jutted out from the building. So when emergency calls initially came through, people were just speculating and they thought maybe he had committed suicide by jumping.

[Mike]

Sure, it's first thing comes everybody's mind.

[Allison]

So this thought started to change when many witnesses overheard Amber sobbing, saying that she pushed Josh from the window. So when Amber was Later interviewed by Dr. Phil, she indicated that she and Josh had started fighting in the days before his death. Apparently, he had been planning this trip to Tennessee and other states. He was going on some sort of concert tour with his friends. And this was something that Amber was vehemently against. So not only would he be missing Amber's dad's wedding, but she also feared that he was planning to start selling prescription pills again. She said this was something he had done when they were dating because he viewed it as a super easy way to make money. So although she indicated that he had been getting high off and on prior to his death, I think she mentioned marijuana. The autopsy proved that there were no drugs or alcohol in his system at the time of his death. So the night before Josh fell to his death, Amber had said that they were up all night long arguing. So they slept until about 1:30pm that Tuesday. So as soon as they woke up, though, they immediately pick back up right where they had been when they went to bed.

[Mike]

And a lot of people say that it's not a good idea to go to sleep angry, you know, but sometimes you just got to get some sleep and then figure it out in the morning and hopefully you're in better situation. But it sounds like they weren't.

[Allison]

Yeah, I always say things always look better after a good night's sleep. But in this case, they did start start fighting immediately again. So sometime that afternoon, Josh called his dad and told him that he was leaving. So he. Excuse me. Needed a ride to his house. So since Sergeant Patrick Hilberling was working at the time, he told his son he would have to call one of his friends and then get a ride that way. So he did talk to his friend. This is Brandon Morris. And Brandon agreed to come get him after Josh was explaining that they had gotten into this Huge argument, and he just needed to get out of there and go to his dad and stepmom. So sadly, though, Brandon agreed, you know, to come and get him, but he did not make it in time. So the phone calls continued that afternoon because Amber, who was only 19 years old at the time, just to give you some perspective, we're dealing with a 19 year old and a 23 year old. So she contacted the University Club Towers management. She was requesting that someone come up to their unit to fix the window that was situated between their bedroom and the balcony. Apparently, during their argument, Josh had flung a laundry basket and it hit the window and it shattered. So two repair manager, or, excuse me, repair men just so happened to be in the building that day.

[Mike]

Was it like a metal laundry basket? Like, how does that.

[Allison]

Oh, I don't think so. I think we'll. We'll talk more about that. So they were fixing another window in another unit that day. So when they finished, they went up to unit 2509 to address their concerns with their window. So when, excuse me, Armando Rosales and his partner, they arrived at the units, and he told Josh and Amber approximately how much it would cost to fix. And he later indicated that Josh was upset. He wanted to fix the window himself, but Armando was like, I don't advise you to do that. So Amber said they would just pay for the window themselves to have it fixed. And according to Armando, he was in the bedroom addressing the window, and Amber just kept coming in and out. She appeared to be very angry every time she came into the room. So it was shortly after this point when the neighbor started to hear these shouts, followed by the sound of crashing glass. So as Armando's partner was still inside Josh and Amber's bedroom. So he's in the other room. He's in the bedroom tending to this window. He heard a crash coming from the living room, followed by Amber's screams. So a man named Robert Baker, apparently he was on a break. He was standing outside smoking a cigarette across the street on the ground floor. All of a sudden, he looks up and he sees something falling from the building.

[Mike]

Oh, that'd be a nightmare.

[Allison]

And he realized in horror that this was a person falling. So Robert indicated that Josh was facing him as he fell. And when his body ended up landing on the 8th floor parking garage, he was positioned on his stomach with his face turned towards the garage railing.

[Mike]

Oh, can you imagine seeing that?

[Allison]

No, that would be terrible. So since Armando had left the unit to go down and get supplies, he was notified that someone had Fallen from the window. So he rushed back up into Josh and Amber's apartments, and he's looking out through the broken window when Amber suddenly ran into the room, shouting that she had pushed Josh out the window. So, according to Armando, Amber wanted to go down to the eighth floor to get to her husband. They rode the elevator down together, but they took it to the lobby rather than to the eighth floor. And apparently, Armando was just feeling very uneasy.

[Mike]

Yeah, I mean, there's somebody that. Oh, that'd be a terrible situation to be in.

[Allison]

So he just wanted to get away from her.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So Amber ended up riding the elevator back up to the eighth floor with another man. And when she ran to Josh's body, she turned him over. And as this was happening, neighbors from the unit above were snapping photos of her crouched next to her husband's body. So she sobbed as she cradled Josh's lifeless, broken body in her arms. And as first responders arrived, she continued to tell them over and over that they needed to fix him. And she repeatedly said that she had pushed him out of the window. So Amber later indicated that she remembered Josh tripping backwards and falling through the window. And she didn't actually see him falling, but when she ran to the window, she saw his body hit the ground, and she could only think of getting to him so that she could see if he was okay. So when she got to the eighth floor and rolled him over, she's cradling in her. Him in her arms and pleading with him to wake up. So by the time EMTs arrived, though, there was absolutely nothing for them to do because Josh was already gone. So when Officer Don Holloway was told that he would be taking a highly distraught Amber to the main Tulsa police station for a statement, he just made the assumption that they were either dealing with a suicide or an accidental fall. And it never once entered his mind that this could potentially be a homicide. It wasn't even a thought. So before they left for the station, Amber wanted to wait for her grandmother to arrive, and they rode over together to the station. So they're sitting in the back of the patrol car, and Officer Holloway could hear her saying some things, like, she pushed Joshua, and he fell out of the window. So once at the station, Officer Holloway escorted Amber and her grandma to an interview room. And meanwhile, he went to a nearby observation room. He was starting to type up a report. So at this point in time, foul play was still not in his mind, and he's sitting there doing his own thing, and he could hear Amber talking. But at this Point in time. She is absolutely not a suspect. She's not being accused of anything. So he's sitting there and he could see and hear everything that she's saying to her grandmother because the interrogation room had a camera. So Amber told her grandma that she and Josh had been fighting. And she clarified. Excuse me. Clarified that it wasn't a fight fight, but an argument. And she said that Josh threw something at their bedroom window, which caused it to break. And as their argument continued, Josh was standing near the TV in the living room. He was doing something when she pushed him into a wall of windows, which caused him to fall to his death. And she said, I pushed him and he fell into the, like, candlestick things and he fell out the window.

[Mike]

So this is all on recording.

[Allison]

Absolutely. So I watched all of it. So Amber sobbed as she told her grandma that every time she closed her eyes, she could see Josh falling out of the window and striking the concrete. And she said that she could only imagine what he was thinking in those seconds. I think it was like three to four seconds that it took for him to fall and land. What was his mind thinking? Was he saying prayers? Did he know he was going to die?

[Mike]

I'd imagine nothing. Just like, oh, basically, I can't imagine.

[Allison]

So she also said that his parents were right since they kept saying that if they stayed together, she was going to kill him. So it was very obvious that Amber's grandma quickly realized that what her granddaughter was saying was very damning.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's not a good thing.

[Allison]

So she quickly said, amber, quit saying that you pushed Josh out of the window. And she did ask her granddaughter, had you done it intentionally? And Amber did say no.

[Mike]

Okay. So the grandma's like, FYI, you should say no to this just in case this is being recorded, which it definitely is, because you're in a police station.

[Allison]

So according to Josh's parents, one month before his death, he had gone to the Domestic Violence Intervention services for help. So being a man who was nearly 6 foot 5 and 220 pounds and military trained. Right. They indicated that it was hard for him to admit that he was a victim at the hands of his smaller, pregnant teenage wife.

[Mike]

Wow, that had to be really hard.

[Allison]

So despite filing a protective order against her, Josh continued to go back to Amber, though, because she was pregnant and they wanted to somehow make it work for the sake of their son. So according to Patrick, when he spoke with his son earlier that day, Josh had been trying to leave for good. And when police entered their unit, they did see that he had packed a bag.

[Mike]

I'm sure the reason he did that was to make document documentation for it so that he could eventually maybe get, you know, full custody of the kids.

[Allison]

Yeah, I, you know, I don't know where his mind was when all of this was happening. So Patrick recalled that only months before his son's death, they had urged him to leave Amber after Josh called and told him that Amber had pushed him down the basement stairs. So with Josh now dead, he and Jean realized that Josh had been trying to leave Amber for good. And they acknowledged that this is always the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when a person is preparing to leave. So on the other hand, though, because there's two sides to every coin in every story, Amber's mom, Rhonda, was accusing Josh of being the abuser. And she referred to him as a drug abusing manipulator who left his wife at home to go partying at strip clubs and at bars. So after they moved to Alaska and tensions started to rise, police had been called out to their military housing on a number of occasions due to domestic disputes as well as their verbal disagreements that started to become physical. And that's just really sad. So according to Rhonda, her daughter was getting slapped, kicked, and thrown against the wall. During one argument on January 2, 2011, Josh knocked a plate out of Amber's hand, and then he attempted to pop her breast implants with his hands. What? Yes.

[Mike]

That's crazy. Oh, my gosh. Just to squeeze her, like so hard.

[Allison]

Yeah. And animalistic, I guess. They took pictures of the incident because she had filed a complaint against him, but he had admitted that he did that.

[Mike]

Like it's self defense is one thing, but like, like personal, like trying to come at her. And that's. I've never heard that in my life. That's crazy.

[Allison]

And, you know, mind you, she was pregnant at this time, too. Not that there's ever an okay time to abuse someone. It's not okay ever.

[Mike]

Defend yourself all you want, but don't go after people.

[Allison]

So Rhonda also said that Josh wasn't only using drugs, but he was also dealing them. And this, she said, is something that resulted in his discharge from the military. And that is a very confusing topic about this. This even Dr. Phil, when I watched his interview, he said it was confusing because if it was drug related, why would he have been honorably discharged?

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

So that, that I have to tell you, there's gray area there. So based on the statements that Amber made while she was sitting there in the interrogation room with her grandma. She was arrested that day, and she was charged with first degree murder. And I will tell you, her family was stunned.

[Mike]

Well, whether it's murder, first degree murder, or manslaughter, it's something. She was the reason he died.

[Allison]

So despite her repeated statements about pushing Josh through the window, she insisted that her husband's death had been an accident. I will tell you that the charge was later changed to second degree murder. So as the investigation continued, authorities learned that the couple had a history of domestic violence resulting in protective order. So there was documentation about it.

[Mike]

Right. Like, Josh did it. Right. But now, did Amber violent in Alaska?

[Allison]

There was a report about that incident where he tried to squeeze her breast. So on May 11, only weeks before his death, Josh requested a protective order after Amber hit him in the head with a floor lamp. That resulted in 10 staples and 11 stitches to close the wound.

[Mike]

That's crazy. Like, can you picture that happening between us?

[Allison]

I. I can't even fathom it. And if you are in an abusive relationship, please know that that's not normal and that's not how you should be treated. Read it.

[Mike]

I was just gonna say that we're on the same page. Like, please take this as your sign to know that that's not normal. Like, you should. You don't deserve that. Nobody deserves that. I'm. You know, just get out. Please. Somehow find some help.

[Allison]

I always think of the line that it says, like, love shouldn't hurt. And that is the truth. Like I tell our kids all the times, like, find a partner that brings out the best in you, that is there to catch you when you fall, hold you when you. You need it. Not to say that we're all perfect. Those times I might be like, oh, I thought you were gonna get my car in the garage. Like, that's passive aggressive. Aggressive.

[Mike]

It's been about a month and a half, and your car definitely deserves to be in the garage.

[Allison]

I can't stand passive aggressive.

[Mike]

You did do this.

[Allison]

I thought I did do that. I own it completely. I was like, oh. I was like, I don't like that I said that.

[Mike]

Good job.

[Allison]

But the point is, we're never always going to be perfect. But the. You should never lay a hand on anyone else. And no one should be laying a GD hand on you.

[Mike]

And you said that it brings out the best in us, but also the people we love bring out the work to not.

[Allison]

Sometimes they know where their. But our buttons are.

[Mike]

Yeah. It's natural.

[Allison]

Yeah. I mean, anytime you're spending A great deal of time with anyone. They're going to rub you the wrong way sometimes and annoy the out of you.

[Mike]

Yeah. And nobody should abuse anybody.

[Allison]

Never. So apparently, you know, it took all those stitches and staples to close this wound. And in his report, he wrote that after she struck him with the lamp, she ran upstairs saying, good, I hope it hurts. So he also wrote that this hadn't been the first time as on February 18, she also hit him and she pushed him into the corner of a wall, which caused his head to open again. So when she assaulted him on other occasions, punching him in the face, busting his lip, he also filed reports about that. However, when the couple hadn't shown up in court, these orders were dismissed.

[Mike]

Yeah, those are back to the lovey dovey phase.

[Allison]

Right? So on June 22, 2011, this is 15 days, days after Josh's death, Amber was released from jail on a $250,000 bond and she was placed on house arrest with GPS monitoring. So while she was out on bond, though, she continuously allowed her GPS ankle monitor to die the battery. And apparently there's all these alerts that tell you it's getting low. But time and time and time again, at least 10 times she let it die. Until December 1, 2011, when the judge placed her in custody of citing that this was a violation of the rules of her probation.

[Mike]

Well, yeah, we're giving you this privilege to be able to be out, not.

[Allison]

In jail or not, you know, you're.

[Mike]

Ruining it, so therefore you're going to come back to jail.

[Allison]

So after less than two weeks in jail, she was allowed to be released on her original bond amount. But this time she had additional conditions. She had to start doing random urinalysis and breath tests to see if she was using any kind of substances. And on multiple occasions, her UA showed that her urine was diluted. So she was manipulating it. And on December 22nd and the 28th of 2011, she did test positive for THC.

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[Allison]

So two months after Josh's death, before the positive THC test, their son Levi Carter was born on August 6, 2011. And obviously Josh wasn't alive to be there for the birth of his son. So according to her family, in addition to caring for her son and taking classes at Rose State College, Amber continued to fight for her innocence on a daily basis. So on In March of 2013, a then 21 year old Amber, she turned down a plea deal from the prosecution that would have sent her to prison for a mere five years. So though although her lawyers urged her, her own defense team urged her to consider this deal, she said that she was not going to admit to Guilt when she hadn't done it.

[Mike]

But you said it to your own grandma that you did, and they have it on tape. Like there's. That's pretty damning. And not to mention on site, I'm sure people can say you were saying that you pushed him out the window.

[Allison]

Many people did. Armando, the window guy, the guy that.

[Mike]

Didn'T want to be in the elevator with her. And because he's like, oh, I'm an accomplice, or not accomplice, but a witness, so she might want to kill me. Like, I'm getting out of this elevator. Like, there's many, many people that have her pushing that.

[Allison]

EMTs heard it.

[Mike]

That's why the five year thing.

[Allison]

Take it, take it.

[Mike]

Unless you're an idiot.

[Allison]

So during the trial, Amber told an entirely different story than what she had said during her recorded conversation with her grandmother that happened in the police station, literally hours after Josh died. So this time she was telling the jury that she and Josh had been arguing. And when she walked into the living room, he turned from the window and he began walking toward her. And they came together at the end of the TV that was situated right around 2 to 3ft from the window when Josh suddenly grabbed her by the shoulders with both of his hands. So she said while trying to protect herself as well as their unborn son, she pushed him in self defense. And this is when he fell into the wall. That was where the candlesticks were before he stumbled back and fell out of the window. So this was a version of events that she never one time mentioned during her conversation with her grandmother hours after Josh died. It was the first time the prosecution had ever heard mention of self defense.

[Mike]

And I will tell you, if she wasn't a complete idiot, that would have been a great story to tell.

[Allison]

Right.

[Mike]

And you have a lot of evidence that he was possibly abusive and you had a terrible relationship. So self defense would be the first thing I'd come up with.

[Allison]

She even said to her grandma, like, we were arguing, but not arguing arguing. Like, you know, she was implying that it was just a verbal argument.

[Mike]

That's so damning.

[Allison]

So when jury members were shown photos of the inside of Josh and Amber's apartment, though, they were able to see these candlesticks, as did I. These candlesticks that she said when she shoved him in self defense, he stumbled against them and then tripped back against the window and fell through. However, these candlesticks were standing perfectly upright.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Allison]

They weren't in disarray. They weren't knocked over. The rest of the apartment was also in very good condition. That suggested that there had been no signs of a struggle.

[Mike]

My question is how in the hell did she have enough force to like push him that hard?

[Allison]

He is a big guy.

[Mike]

Yeah. You know, like our son. He's a big fella, six one, and you know, 180 pounds or something. And he tries to like push me around and I don't move.

[Allison]

You know, you're like a concrete wall.

[Mike]

It's not. And I don't even try. Like the other day he was trying to like hit me and I was just like, I didn't.

[Allison]

And when Mike says hit him, it was playful.

[Mike]

Yeah, he was. Yeah, yeah. He was trying to like move around me.

[Allison]

And his body pushed off of you. Your body didn't even move.

[Mike]

Right. So it's like, you know, I'm 245 pounds, runs, he's 180. Like, I'm sure there's a bigger difference between these two. Like, oh yeah, you got.

[Allison]

Sure.

[Mike]

If you push me as hard as you could right now, like, I wouldn't move much.

[Allison]

No, I don't think you would even stumble forward.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

I mean, if you're unprepared.

[Mike]

Right.

[Allison]

That's the thing. If you're caught off guard, you might.

[Mike]

If I'm actively walking towards the window and you push me at it. Absolutely.

[Allison]

Sure. Because you got that momentum. So jury members heard about the numerous reports of domestic violence that started when the couple had been stationed in Alaska. And mind you, this, this is like months after they got married. So the abuse and the tension and just the volatile nature of their relationship escalated very quickly.

[Mike]

And again, if this sounds anything like the relationship you're in, this is not a good relationship. Please try to find a way out.

[Allison]

So they heard about the staples that Josh needed in his head after Amber struck him with the floor lamp. So according to the prosecution, while Josh was waiting for his friend Brandon to come and get him, Amber went on a violent rampage and the two began to fight in the bedroom. So we know that Josh threw this laundry basket, it shattered the bedroom window. And the prosecution alleged that Amber realized at that point just how weak these windows were. So they believe that when Josh had been distracted by either his phone or the tv, Amber had taken him by surprise and shoved him in the direction of the living room window, knowing just how easily it could break. So the defense argued that the real issue in Josh's death had been the cheap 46 year old windows in their high rise building. So according to this window expert, who came in and testified for the defense during the trial. The window that Josh fell through was most certainly original to the building. And the thickness of the glass is known in the glass industry as, excuse me, single strength. So it's used for picture frames.

[Mike]

Oh, my gosh.

[Allison]

Picture frames.

[Mike]

That's terrible.

[Allison]

Terrible.

[Mike]

Your family used to do picture frames?

[Allison]

Yes, we dealt with this glass constantly.

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[Allison]

It's, you know, 46 years ago, maybe this was to code, but certainly not in 2011, it wasn't.

[Mike]

Okay. Now I will say they try to say that was the main issue. I'd say the main issue is domestic violence. But a secondary issue, the windows certainly didn't help. No.

[Allison]

So despite the two layers of glass that were separated by an airspace, they were too weak to be used in buildings, much less buildings of a high rise. So the glass was also non safety glass, and it had not, or, excuse me, and had it been tempered or laminated safety glass, Josh would likely not have penetrated it. So just like a car's windshield, laminated glass is designed to hold together even if it breaks. You know how you've seen videos where someone's trying to shatter a window and it doesn't all come crashing down on you?

[Mike]

Like, it shatters, but it's still sticks together, stays together.

[Allison]

That wasn't the case here. So not to mention, though, because the glass had been constantly, for 46 years, been exposed to weather, it would have naturally lost strength over time, which would cause it to more, you know, easily shatter, even with moderate impact. Hence the reason why he threw probably a plastic laundry basket is what I'm assuming it was. And the window in their bedroom easily shattered. Those two repairmen were there fixing someone else's window in the building.

[Mike]

Yeah, that makes complete sense.

[Allison]

So in the days before Josh's death, Tulsa had been in the midst of an intense heat wave. So this would have caused the hot air to rise through the building's elevator shaft. They basically called it a chimney effect. So you could picture a fireplace and all the heat is going up. That's exactly what would be happening within the air. Excuse me, the elevator shafts and the stairwells, just like smoke rises in a chimney. So this would cause an outward push on the glass in the upper portions of the building. And they were up high. They were on the 25th. Fifth floor, I think I said it was 32 floors altogether. So they were only seven floors from the top of this building. So this paired with the wind gusts, which that day were up to 23 miles per hour, which would be Sucking the glass out contributed to the instability of the window. And I will tell you, there are photos of their unit from the outside after Josh had broken through. And you could see their vertical blinds were being sucked out of the building. So all of that together made it very easy to break through this window. So a downstairs neighbor reported hearing a noise from above right before the sound of the crash. And it sounded as if someone was running in the direction of the window. And, like I said, followed by the sound of crashing glass. So this told prosecutors that Amber had likely got a running start, heart, and charged into Josh. So that could answer your question as to how she would have been able to push him.

[Mike]

And he fell face first.

[Allison]

So that's what the witness said.

[Mike]

He was likely going towards the window at some point, like, oh, I've had enough. And, like, just trying to look outside or something. And then she sees her opportunity, runs at him, pushes him as hard as he can.

[Allison]

That's.

[Mike]

That's the only way. And then with that glass. Absolutely.

[Allison]

Whether he was walking in the direction of the window or not, maybe he was. Was distracted by the tv, but it sounds like he was most certainly caught off guard. So the witness who had been standing outside happened to see Josh falling from the window. He indicated Josh had fallen face first. And this would mean he had been facing the window with his back to Amber, rather than what she told the jury, that he was facing her with his hands on her shoulders. And the reason why she pushed him was she was trying to protect herself and their unborn child.

[Mike]

So, like, what I said said, probably he was looking at it, but he could have, you know, been looking back and then, oh, no, I'm gonna go through the window and then turn around right before he went. Who knows?

[Allison]

Right. So the, you know, the jury is also able to hear the entirety of the conversation she had while she was unknowingly sitting in that room. I don't know if, in her mind, she didn't think she was being recorded, but, you know, they got to hear all of that. And the prosecution believes that so soon after Josh's death, because we're talking like. Like, maybe an hour after he died, she's sitting at that table. That is the moment when her grief and emotion was raw. So it's likely at that point that she was telling the truth.

[Mike]

Yeah. And she felt sorry. Genuinely. She probably didn't want to kill him.

[Allison]

Right. That's my belief.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

So the prosecution also called two jailhouse witnesses to testify, and they indicated that Amber had laughed and joked about what she had done to her husband. She actually called him a bastard. Bastard. She was making light of his death. And this is something that Amber denies ever saying. She said bastard. That is an old person term. I've never used that term. Okay, so whether she did or did not say that, you know, that's on a jailhouse witness.

[Mike]

Yeah. Was there like an 85 year old lady? I was like, I heard her say calm a bastard.

[Allison]

I'm bastard. She's like, I've never said that word in my life. So according to Amber's defense team, she was the victim who had been abused by her husband through her entire pregnancy, and she had no intention of causing her husband's death. All of the first responders from the scene testified that she was 100% in shock and she was highly distraught. When they arrived on the scene, she was crouched at his side, cradling him in her arms, begging them to make him come back to life. So they also mentioned the fact that she was 5 foot 5. She was seven months pregnant in comparison to his 6 foot 5 height.

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Right.

[Allison]

They speculated, would she even have been able to trip or to push him with such force? She was mentioning that he basically stumbled over his own big feet is why he fell out that window. So regardless of the fact that Josh landed face first on the pavement 17 floors below, as well as the fact that that witness had said he had fallen out face first, the medical examiner couldn't say for certain that that's how his body exited the window. And the defense was questioning the credibility of the witness Based on where he was standing. Would he have really been able to see that Josh exited the window face first?

[Mike]

Sure.

[Allison]

You know, you're not expecting to see a human being come out of a building. Yeah.

[Mike]

I mean, and all that stuff, I mean, it kind of doesn't really matter that much. I guess they're trying to.

[Allison]

It does matter if it was self defense.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Allison]

Yeah. So Amber told the jury that although her marriage may have have started as happy and passionate, it soon changed when Josh became abusive. We know for sure Amber was also being abusive. It sounds like they were both guilty parties. She said that on the day of her husband's death, she finally decided to stand up for herself. So she made Josh pack his bags and this was something that caused their fight to begin. However, Josh's family argue that he packed his bags on his own volition because he was finally done with the marriage. We know he called his dad and his friend Brandon to come and get him. So to support Amber's claims that Josh had grabbed her shoulders before she pushed him in self defense. The defense did show pictures that depicted red marks on her shoulders. So fearing for her safety as well as that of their unborn child, she said that she pushed against Josh's chest and he stumbled backwards. So however, the Hilberling's neighbor testified to hearing only Amber's yellings, not they never heard a male voice. They also heard the sound of the stomping feet that suggested that she was running in Josh's direction rather than them standing together at the tv.

[Mike]

And what you can picture, I'm sure prosecution's probably painting this picture where it's like he was probably saying that he was leaving her and she was probably saying, no, no, no.

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Right.

[Mike]

Like that's what the neighbor heard her saying. So he's probably like, oh, you know what? I'm just, I'm probably gonna leave tonight. I'm done with this relationship. She's like, no, no, no. And then goes to push him, right?

[Allison]

And then I hear the stomping of the feet that suggested she was charging at him. And, you know, I'm sure being the idea of being a single mom and your husband's packing up his bags is highly distressing, but you still can't be doing something like this, can't murder people. So after a one week of testimony, the jury broke for deliberation. So they needed to decide if Josh's death was a result of an accident or a violent push. They did come back with a verdict after three hours of deliberation. And I will ask you, Mike, if you were a jury member, based on the information I'm telling you right now, what would you think?

[Mike]

I mean, this relationship sucked. So it's really hard. I mean, they both did terrible things to each other. They both lost their tempers. They both did terrible things. It just so happened that Amber had happened to push him into these terrible thin windows and he died. So it was probably an accident. She probably didn't want to kill him, but she did. So you've got to serve some time for that. And if her defense team was saying she should take that five years, I'm going to guess she gets 10 or 15 or 20 maybe.

[Allison]

So she was found guilty of second degree murder, and they recommended 25 years prison sentence. So this would be 20 years longer than the five year sentence she was offered had she taken that plea agreement. So on April 23, 2013, Amber was sentenced to 25 years in prison with credit for 15 months that she already served. So as prosecutors pointed out, this number seems symbolic since Josh had been pushed from the 25th floor of their apartments. So in the aftermath, Josh's parents were awarded custody of their Grandson Levi on October 24, 2016. This is about three and a half years into her 25 year sentence. Amber Hilberling was found unresponsive in her cell by another inmate at the Mabel Bassett Correctional center in Tulsa. And the 25 year old was hanging from the bunk bed of her cell at 5:20pm and although staff provided life saving measures, she was pronounced dead at the scene. And at 5:33pm God, that's so sad. So, so sad. And a medical examiner confirmed that her death was suicide by hanging. While her autopsy revealed that she did have traces of meth in her system, I think her parents are suggesting that there could have been something sinister involved in her death.

[Mike]

Yeah, maybe so.

[Allison]

After Amber's death, Josh's family posted to Facebook writing, we heard that Amber Hilberling hung herself in prison. Prison. This evening. We know how it feels to lose a child. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's something no parent should ever have to experience. And meanwhile, Amber's mother, Rhonda Whitlock, she wrote her own Facebook post and said, I hate what this world did to you. Go rest in the arms of Jesus. The media, the haters, the Hilberlings, they got their wish. Hope they are happy. I will never stop fighting for the truth. Truth. So this case is one that no one wins. A marriage that was already volatile and unstable, it suddenly ended in a moment of force and anger that could never be undone. Whether or not Amber intended for Josh to fall from that window, he did and he died. So two sets of families are left to grieve, their lives changed forever. Leaving Levi to live the rest of his life without a mother or a father. Domestic violence can move in both directions and control can take many forms. If you or someone you know is dealing with domestic violence, please don't delay seeking help. You can call the National Domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text begin to 88788. And that is the sad and tragic case of the murder of Josh Hoberling.

[Mike]

So sad. And I must say, that was Amber's mom that had that statement, like, what a piece of garbage. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm very sorry you lost your daughter, but it's like such a victim mindset. It's like, I'm sorry what this world did to you.

[Allison]

You're only shoved someone out a window. He died.

[Mike]

She didn't mean to. I totally believe she didn't.

[Allison]

I didn't. I don't think she. She meant to.

[Mike]

Yeah, but it's just like. It's like that's part of what's wrong with a lot of people, that they just blame everybody else for everything. Like, we have control over a lot of things in our lives.

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[Mike]

Right. There's a lot of things you can't control, but the things you can, like, I can't. That's one thing I cannot stand when people just blame everything else. Like, oh, my job sucks and my boss is blah, blah. And this, like, you can change, man. You can change. There's. And not. You know, it's not easy, but you can put in some effort and. And try to change things. And, I mean, the Hilberlings took the high road. They're like, I'm so sorry. We know what it's like. You know, they could have been like, okay, rotten hell or whatever, but they didn't.

[Allison]

I believe Josh's brother said, ding dong, the way witch is dead.

[Mike]

Oh, okay. Well, in that case, he's also. I. I could see where you're coming from. I mean, honestly, I can see that a little bit, because if it wasn't for her, your brother would probably still be alive. Right?

[Allison]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Even though he was. He was maybe not so nice and definitely had some problems with abuse and things.

[Allison]

I mean, they were just oil and water together. Like, they. There are just people that have no business being together.

[Mike]

You and me are like oil and oil.

[Allison]

That's right. Nice and lubed or even. Ew. Gross.

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[Allison]

You're so nasty. Nasty.

[Mike]

I was gonna say. Son's watching this. Sorry, son.

[Allison]

Yeah. Seriously. You know, the whole thing is, is that there are just certain people that shouldn't be together, and they think because they've got all these feelings that they're so passionate in love. It's like, no, this is just toxic.

[Mike]

Yeah. There's one relationship within. Like, that was. That used to be pretty close to us, but now they're apart, and that was a bad relationship.

[Allison]

It's like, it's not passionate. It's toxic. And there's a difference there.

[Mike]

Yeah. And it's within family. It's not friends or anything.

[Allison]

And. And I'm not saying that Josh was a complete innocent person in this situation because the abuse sounded like it went both ways, which is terrible. But, you know, he didn't deserve to fall out of a 25, 25th floor, window. No doubt. Those windows were a problem.

[Mike]

Absolutely. And I mean, sure, now they've probably replaced it. Was there any kind of lawsuit by the.

[Allison]

Yeah, there were. There were.

[Mike]

They should have. And that's how things get done. Unfortunately, like, people are always like, I don't want to sue. It's like you have to. You have to have some kind of monetary loss in order for companies to.

[Allison]

Change, you know, especially a building that's built in 1966. And now we're in, like, 2011 when this case takes place. Like, things change. Codes are updated for a reason.

[Mike]

Yeah. A lot of places are grandfathered in because it's like, you can't just be like, listen, you got to spend 500 grand and replace all your windows.

[Allison]

But that's really dangerous.

[Mike]

Now we know that. I mean, it's a terrible, terrible story. And so. And yeah, there's. There's a part where, you know, there's people that say you should never touch a woman. But, like, you can prevent things. You know, like, don't go actively. Obviously never. Okay. To go aggressively towards a woman. Right. Because men are a lot bigger and stuff.

[Allison]

But someone's swinging at you.

[Mike]

You hold them, try to hold them. Yeah. Just. I mean, that's. That's okay. Go ahead, defend yourself to try and make sure. Just like, don't. Don't be punching women in the face or anything.

[Allison]

Two wrongs do not make right.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm so sorry for both families. It's just. Terrible situation, you know?

[Allison]

And this case is just a reminder that. That again, you deserve love and kindness and compassion and not someone to be punching you or pushing you or shoving you or whatever.

[Mike]

Unless you're a piece of crap. Then you don't deserve any of those.

[Allison]

I don't think anyone deserves.

[Mike]

None of our listeners are pieces of crap.

[Allison]

I mean, we're adults. Use your freaking words. Yep.

[Mike]

Yep. So thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. We're coming back at you every single Sunday with a free episode. There's somebody like, hey, you guys locked our episodes. It's like, yeah, there's a.

[Allison]

Every Wednesday is a bonus. Sunday's a are free. Every Sunday there's a free episode. So please don't give us a one star review because you think we only lock our episodes.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Allison]

That's false.

[Mike]

That's. There's literally. I think there's literally one person that thinks that, yet they still follow us on Tik Tok and Instagram and all comment all over the place.

[Allison]

So we like feedback for sure. But don't give us a one star review when it's your error.

[Mike]

Yeah, we appreciate all the suggestions for cases. If you want to suggest any cases, go on over to the Show Notes and there's a link to our link tree or on Instagram you can follow the links tree there. It's. We're in Crime and Coffee 2. I should probably change that at some point. Try to just go Crime and Coffee couple podcast or something.

[Allison]

Yeah. Well, well, maybe the new year will be a good time to get into rebranding. We'll like Rebirth.

[Mike]

Yeah, you know, Rebirth. It's Birth is good. Think about birth.

[Allison]

Speaking of birth, we were noticing in Stranger Things that though the break to the Upside down looks just like a.

[Mike]

Birgina and our daughter seems told us that that's actually a thing on like tick tock.

[Allison]

I mean it has to be.

[Mike]

It's.

[Allison]

They call it the bussy or something.

[Mike]

Well, that's what she calls it, but it's the P word. So we call it the B word. B, U, S, S, Y. Because we don't see you. Yeah, but they say that's like the, the, the portal bussy.

[Allison]

So yeah, I just call it the bargina.

[Mike]

Barginas. Lots of barginas everywhere. It's a sign of life. So. Hey, thank you so much for joining us. We hope, you know, you guys have a tremendous like Christmas if you celebrate it or just get some time and family time together.

[Allison]

I think this episode is coming out after Christmas.

[Mike]

Okay. I hope you had a great Christmas. We did talk about Thanksgiving.

[Allison]

We hope that you have a wonderful new year too.

[Mike]

Absolutely.

[Allison]

Yeah, absolutely. And until next time.

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[Allison]

My name is Special Agent Rebecca Henderson.

[Mike]

Thursday, January 8th on NBC.

[Allison]

There was no explosion at a top secret prison.

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Some of the most infamous killers broke free.

[Mike]

The hunting party is back. We're going in loud. FBI. The stakes have never been higher.

[Allison]

The longer they're out there, the more.

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Dangerous they're going to become.

[Mike]

And the killers. Never seen anything like this before. Not even close. Have never been more twisted. This is Next level. The Hunting Party. The thrilling season premiere Thursday, January 8th on NBC.

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[Mike]

After almost four years of treatments, I was finally cancer free. My mom's like, where do you want to go to celebrate? I'm like, let's go somewhere tropical. And then pilot hopped on the intercom and started talking about me. And I was like, what is going on here? My wife beat cancer too, and I wanted to celebrate his special moment.

[Allison]

That's Bill, a real United pilot.

[Mike]

We brought him drinks and donuts. We all signed a card. I was smiling ear to ear. Best flight ever for sure. That's how good leads the way.

[Allison]

So good, so good, so good.

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