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Epstein Investigation: Attorney Mary David Explains Challenges Behind Prosecuting Human-Trafficking Networks | Crime House 24/7
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- [00:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi, it's Vanessa. If you're drawn to true crime stories about disappearances, there's a new Crime House original you should check out. It's called the Final Hours, hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah's an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose own sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller who's seen firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case, examining the moments just before a person disappears. The routines, the timelines, the small details that often get overlooked because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal until it doesn't. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or
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wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:50]
Vanessa Richardson
New episodes drop every Monday.
- [00:57]
Good morning, everyone. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and this is crime house 24 7, your home for breaking true crime news. Today we're taking a slight turn from our usual format for an extended discussion about one of the most consequential sex trafficking cases in modern history, the Jeffrey Epstein investigation, also known as the Epstein Files.
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- [02:42]
Vanessa Richardson
We're discussing the Jeffrey Epstein case. So to help unpack the legal dimensions of cases like this, I'm joined today by Mary David, an attorney and expert in Human trafficking.
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Podcast Advertiser
Mary, welcome to the show.
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Vanessa Richardson
Thank you so much for being with us. Tell us a little about your background and what stands out to you most about the Epstein case from a legal perspective.
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Mary David
It is so great to be with you for this conversation. I was a prosecutor and worked a lot on cases that included sex abuse cases, as well as violence and other things related to sex trafficking. I also helped to vacate convictions for victims of sex trafficking, and I'm part of Harvard University's Human Trafficking Advisory Council. I helped to draft some of Maryland's laws against trafficking, which include aspects of aiding abetting sex trafficking. And those definitely come up here in the Epstein case. I've also worked extensively with victims and nonprofit service providers. So just very grateful to have this conversation and dive into this because there are so many facets within the Epstein case that relate to themes that I have seen as a prosecutor and in my work with victims. So a brief background on this case for anyone who isn't especially familiar with all of the details. Jeffrey Epstein was a wealthy financier whose social circle included celebrities, business leaders and powerful figures. But behind that world of wealth and influence, Epstein also operated a years long scheme that included recruiting and sexually exploiting underage girls. The allegations first really came to the attention of authorities back in 2005, and that's when Palm beach police began investigating claims that there was a teenage girl who had been paid to give Epstein a massage at his Florida mansion. Detectives, as they started working on this case, soon uncovered accounts from multiple young women who said that they had been recruited sometimes by other girls and brought to Epstein's homes where they were paid for sexual acts. Investigators alleged that the activity involved minors and had been happening for years. Then in 2008, after the investigation, Epstein reached a controversial plea agreement in Florida. He pleaded guilty to state charges, not federal ones, that were only related to prostitution involving a minor. And he served about 13 months in a county jail. And that, of course, drew intense criticism from victims and legal experts who believe that this case warranted far more serious federal prosecution. Then, over a decade later, In July of 2019, federal prosecutors now in New York arrested Epstein. And this time he was charged with sex trafficking and conspiracy involving underage girls. The indictment alleged that between 2002 and 2005, Epstein had abused multiple minors at residences in Manhattan as well as Palm Beach. But then, before the case could go to trial, Epstein was found dead in his jail cell. In August 2019, while he was being held at the Metropolitan Correctional center in Manhattan, the New York City medical examiner Ruled his death a suicide. But the investigation didn't end there. In 2020, Epstein's longtime associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, was arrested and later convicted of sex trafficking and related charges for helping recruit and groom underage victims. She is currently serving a 20 year federal prison sentence. The Epstein case continues to raise really difficult questions about trafficking networks and how abuse can persist for years before victims are heard.
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Vanessa Richardson
Thank you so much, Mary. That was so helpful, because this case can be complicated. I mean, people are talking about this case everywhere. We hear it all the time, different aspects of it, but it often feels like there's still a lot we just don't know. Can you help explain to our listeners how prosecutors alleged his trafficking operations actually functioned? So, specifically, what did investigators say the recruitment, grooming, and exploitation process looked like? And how was the network around him alleged to operate?
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Mary David
What prosecutors allege is that young girls were recruited through these peer referrals. So essentially, one girl who was being paid for these sexual acts then brought in another girl, and this created a pipeline of victims. So a girl who had already been abused would then bring in her friends from school or their neighborhood, and these victims were then paid these cash referral fees, which were around $100 per recruit. So this created a cycle of recruitment, and because of the promises of money, this normalized sexual activity that continued to perpetuate the harm.
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Vanessa Richardson
Thank you so much, Mary, for that explanation. When we talk about sex trafficking in the Epstein case, what exactly do federal prosecutors have to prove under the law? So what elements must they establish to show that minors were recruited or coerced for sexual exploitation? And how do investigators typically demonstrate that the accused knowingly participated in that kind
- [08:47]
Mary David
of operation to secure a conviction for sex trafficking of minors? There actually doesn't have to be the force, fraud, or the coercion element. So sex trafficking is defined as giving something of value that could be money, it could be other things, promises of love or a place to stay. But giving something of value in exchange for a commercial sex act. With minors, if a minor is engaged in providing sexual acts in exchange for something of value, they are automatically considered a victim of sex trafficking. So. So proving that there was this coercion element, that somehow someone was holding something over their head or providing some sort of pressure, is eliminated as a requirement to prove it. What needs to be shown is that the person who is being charged was in fact engaging in that activity with a minor, and that they were the ones who were giving something of value, that they were recruiting the minor, that they were harboring the minor. So, for example, in some capacity, hosting them in their space, transporting them, if they engaged in any of that activity, that would constitute the sex trafficking.
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Vanessa Richardson
One thing that stands out in this case, in the Epstein case, is something you just mentioned earlier, the alleged recruitment system involving younger girls bringing in other girls. So from a legal standpoint, how do courts distinguish between someone who was exploited and someone who may have participated in recruiting others, even if they were minors?
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Mary David
This is a very tricky and complicated question because we never want to diminish someone's harm or abuse and exploitation, but at the same time, we want to recognize that those who may have engaged in that activity were also victims themselves. And this is especially important in the context of minority, where they are operating from a place of being exploited themselves, that they are normalizing the experience or it has been normalized for them, and that essentially they are not approaching this as being in their free will. I've seen this come up, and I actually know victims and survivors well who, unfortunately, during the course of their trafficking, they engaged in this. And in cases where it involves adults, there are often sex trafficking rings where the person who has become closest to the trafficker, they're referred to as a bottom girl. And their role a lot of times is to maintain the chain of command, ensure that everyone else there are acting in line with what their trafficker wants. And it's important to understand that the context for these victims, it's almost like a cult mentality where they have been so severely abused, oftentimes plied with drugs and other things that also have clouded their judgment. They've been told all kinds of horrible things by their traffickers, and are victims of both emotional abuse as well as physical and sexual abuse, and are sometimes even operating from a place of fear. That is why it was so important to me as the point person for vacating convictions of survivors, is recognizing that there is this space where if they are engaging in these activities but essentially don't have their. Their free will, or it was as a result of the force and the actions of a trafficker who had them engaged in that system at the time that they engaged in that conduct, that it really wasn't a choice. And here in this context, where we're talking about minors, it's important to remember just even in terms of their brain, their development, and just how they are processing all of this, that their victimization is seen and the victimization of those who experience the harm is also seen.
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Vanessa Richardson
As a parent, this simultaneously infuriates me and terrifies me. So what and as a. Not only as a parent, as a human, as a human being. What psychological tactics do traffickers often use to manipulate and control victims? How do they. How do they do it?
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Mary David
This is just so heartbreaking because they're really using tactics that prey on the vulnerabilities of youth. There was a trafficker back when I was a part of the Maryland Human Trafficking Task Force. When I was out in Maryland, traffickers would actually go to malls or school playgrounds, parking lots, and they would tell a girl, you're beautiful, and see how she responded. If she responded with a lot of confidence, blew them off, then they moved on. But if they seemed unsure of themselves, didn't really know how to take a compliment, looked in any way insecure, then they pressed on. And there's actually. It's really awful, Vanessa. There's even a go to pimp handbook that is available on Amazon where they break down how to actually break someone's spirit, engage in gaslighting, making victims think that the abuse is their fault. And now, especially with social media, traffickers will even look up hashtags like, I'm ugly. I'm depressed. I want to unalive myself. And use that as a means of then reaching out to a minor, offering support. Any trafficking situation that is what we call a lover boy situation will typically have elements where at first the trafficker is extremely disarming. They are very kind, good listeners, and they provide support and emotional stability in a way that a lot of victims haven't previously experienced. But then as they develop this relationship, there will often be some shift where at that point they will develop a relationship and then say, hey, I am so low on money. I just don't have a place to go. I'm sorry. Just this one time, will you do this for me this one time? And that could be through OnlyFans. It could be through an encounter that they set up. They then say, I love you so much. Will you please do this for me? And that one time is never just one time. And after they do that, they will often then engage in very brutal physical and sexual behavior to then really shake the victim up, often then ply them with drugs and alcohol while simultaneously blaming them for what they have experienced. And many victims, it's a number in the high 90s, have a background of either child sexual abuse or incest, where they have normalized feelings of guilt and shame around sexual conduct. And so all they are seeking to do is get back to that place where everything was good again, but it never really gets there.
- [17:04]
Vanessa Richardson
No God, this is so important for people to know. This is incredibly important. When we come back, Mary David will continue to unpack everything we know about the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.
- [17:19]
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Mary David
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- [18:49]
Vanessa Richardson
Welcome back to crime house 24 7. We're discussing the Jeffrey Epstein case. So Jeffrey Epstein died in 2019 before his federal case could go to trial. So legally speaking, what happens when a defendant dies before a criminal case is resolved? How does that affect the government's ability to pursue the allegations, including possible cases against others? And what does it mean for survivors who were hoping to see accountability in court?
- [19:16]
Mary David
This is such a difficult situation to put victims and survivors in. Typically, well, when a criminal defendant dies by a legal concept called abatement, the prosecutor will essentially dismiss the indictment and they can't proceed because in that setting, the conduct that is in question, that is a liability, that is a guilt question, that is personal, and it really only rests with the defendant. This actually became incredibly important even earlier when it goes back to, in the case of Epstein, that horrendous non prosecutorial agreement that was reached where the federal prosecutors actually allowed him to plead guilty to these state charges, have time in a county jail, which is very different than prison. And he was on work Release, where for 12 hours a day, he was allowed to leave the jail and hold meetings. He had a driver, he had security. And all of that was done without contacting the victims. And that was found to be a huge violation of the victims rights legislation. But even though the judge ruled that that really never should have happened because Epstein was dead, there was no way to really undo that. And so that's where prosecutors then can still pursue co conspirators, facilitators and related crimes by other individuals. And so, unfortunately, the criminal charges in that indictment end when the defendant is no longer alive. But there are still ways to get access to justice for victims, although not fully in the same capacity.
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Vanessa Richardson
Absolutely. That does not sound like accountability and justice and closure for those victims. Now, Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted in 2021 for helping recruit and groom underage girls for Jeffrey Epstein. Does that conviction help establish a clear legal record of what prosecutors say the trafficking operation looked like? And to what extent did Maxwell's trial fill in gaps that might otherwise have been address if Epstein himself had faced trial, if he was still alive?
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Mary David
Ghislaine Maxwell's conviction was very important because it still allowed victims to be able to see someone who was directly involved in the operations receive a sentence for the harm that she perpetuated. For these victims, it also allowed for a process to happen where they could then share their statements as part of any sentencing and really be able to have that day in court and just finally feel like they were heard and seen and that the courts and the criminal prosecution system did stand with them. So it was important in that regard. And it also helped to establish certain timelines and relationships that may not have otherwise surfaced just through the course of the investigation. It also opened the door in some avenues for things like compensation to come about. Part of what was actually also controversial with the sentencing and how the investigation estate, the Epstein estate, has, has handled all of this is they created a victims compensation fund. And when they did that, basically it was a way that streamlined justice for victims, where now, instead of going through the courts, they could just provide some sort of verification that they were one of the victims, and then they could receive money directly from the estate. The good thing is that in that way, victims again did receive some sort of acknowledgment, and also it avoided putting them through the horrible process of what trial does to a victim. So that was great. It was a quicker way for them to get some justice. But the downside of that is that there is a lot of investigation and discovery that didn't happen. And so there are unanswered questions. But again, it's that balance of honoring what is best for this victim and what is best in terms of public interest and victims as a whole.
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Vanessa Richardson
Sex trafficking victims often face enormous barriers to coming forward. I mean, that's gotta be incredibly difficult in cases like the Epstein investigation, such a public stage. What are some of the biggest challenges survivors encounter within the legal system once they decide to report abuse? What hurdles can exist in terms of evidence, time limits for bringing the charges, and the process of testifying or reliving those experiences in court?
- [25:10]
Mary David
The process of trial is so brutal on victims and survivors of exploitation. You saw this with Virginia Giuffre, for example, in terms of the ways that she. She was attacked in the media, how she just suffered so much scrutiny when she was, in fact, a victim. And part of what makes it such a nasty process is that the easiest way for the defendant's counsel to attack the victim is to say that this was consensual and that the victim was actually not a victim at all. And the way that they go about showing that is often through a very difficult questioning that is happening in public. And it really undoes a lot of the therapy that victims have often gone through in order to just get them in a place where they can move on with their life and can come forward. And so that's a real struggle for prosecutors, is that you, of course, want justice and you want that for the victims, but that process often really debilitates victims and survivors in the process. And my heart really broke for some of the victims who testified. In the Diddy case, for example, you saw as well where victims are. You know, there was one victim in that case who literally couldn't even look anywhere except down at the ground during this questioning. And the defense counsel really just went into her, and the. The biggest thing they could do was say she had some sort of a Facebook post that, you know, acknowledged Diddy's birthday. And, you know, and just as an example, anecdotally, as it relates, you know, they said, so you kept. You kept celebrating the day that you were raped, I mean, and just continually push that forward. And so that kind of a process, I mean, it's just. It's really damaging. The other really difficult problem is, when it comes to statutory limitations, that can be very difficult, because in the criminal justice system, it is pretty strict as far as when the conduct occurred. You have from that moment until, you know, whatever that's taken statute of limitations is, and in some cases like in New York, because of the many serious offenses related to this coming out, they did actually have a window where from a certain time period, even if the statute of limitations had passed, you could still bring the charges forward. And, and it comes from a reason of understanding that the defendant is the one who is on trial. So you want to give them the time and space to be able to bring a defense that is not so outdated that they can't access witnesses, that they can't access evidence and things like that. And, and that can help for, for victims as well, but can be a real challenge. Fortunately, in civil cases there is a discovery rule that does actually allow this window to be greater. And again, that's a different kind of a remedy here where you're really looking more at monetary damages typically and perhaps some sort of injunction on future behavior. But at least with that, it's the same principle where in malpractice cases it's when you discovered or could discover that there was a harm. So for example, in the Epstein case that there were victims and survivors who recognize themselves or came across something, a photograph, anything that then brought back memories. And you see this often in civil claims related to sex trafficking, sex abuse cases. If they had a memory or something was suppressed and then only came forward later, they do still have a greater window for which to access some form of liability.
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Vanessa Richardson
That's good. I mean, little, little silver linings. I mean that's such a difficult thing. This is incredible. Still ahead, Mary David continues our conversation on Jeffrey Epstein.
- [29:52]
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It's the new Crime House original series, the Final Hours, hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah is an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose own sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller and investigator who witnessed firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case, looking not only at what happened, but what led up to it. It each episode examines the moments just before a person disappears. The routines, the timelines, and the small details that often get overlooked. Because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal. A text that doesn't raise concern, a routine that goes unchanged, a door that closes just like it always has. Until it doesn't. The final hours puts those moments, moments under a microscope. Because when it comes to justice, there's no such thing as overanalyzing. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen. New episodes every Monday.
- [32:14]
Welcome back to crime house 24 7. We're discussing the Jeffrey Epstein case. Mary We've recently learned that both former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave depositions as part of a congressional investigation tied to Jeffrey Epstein. Lawmakers say they're trying to understand Epstein's network and how previous investigations into him were handled. So for listeners who may not be familiar with the process, what exactly is a deposition and how is sworn testimony like this used in an investigation?
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Mary David
A deposition is a formal legal process where a witness gives sworn testimony outside the courtroom. It it's important because it then becomes part of the official evidentiary record and it can be accessed and utilized in the courts. Depositions can be taken for different reasons. It can happen as part of congressional investigations. It can happen if there is someone whose testimony needs to be preserved, but perhaps they are approaching the end of life or there is a reason where they would not be able to testify later if it still provides an avenue to capture that testimony. The witness is placed under oath. Attorneys or investigators ask questions, and there is a court reporter who records every word. And so they're really essential to gather information, evaluate credibility. And it can also help to clarify timelines and relationships which you see is how they're being used in these congressional hearings. And witnesses are under oath to testify truthfully and they could be subject to perjury charges if they do not do so.
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Vanessa Richardson
So when investigators are trying to understand the scope of Jeffrey Epstein's network, you mentioned people who knew him. How valuable can testimony from people who had social or professional contact with him be? Even if those individuals aren't accused of wrongdoing, what kind of insight can their testimony provide about how Epstein operated and who may have been around him?
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Mary David
The testimony of people who were in Epstein's social circles can help to establish a timeline and relationships. If there were certain people that they saw or places where activity took place, it can be used to corroborate other witness testimony and also help to uncover details that can lead to a questioning or lead to a lead that then really moves the investigation forward. So that can confirm if someone was present at a location. It can be valuable in verifying travel schedules or identifying staff and assistants who were involved and part of the sex trafficking operation.
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Vanessa Richardson
It's a giant puzzle that you're just trying to get all the pieces and put all to get the picture, the clear picture. When you step back and look at the Epstein case as a whole, what do you think it revealed about the challenges of prosecuting specifically sex trafficking networks?
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Mary David
This case really highlights how victims have been marginalized and minimized in the process. I still cannot get over that non prosecutorial agreement that was arranged, which was controversial not only because of the, the freedoms that were afforded to Epstein, but also because it also provided a space that eliminated liability for co conspirators. And there isn't even information on who these co conspirators were. So that makes it that much more nebulous and also difficult going back to try and understand, you know, know what the details are. When we talk about any sort of list, I mean, my mind always goes to what was this immunity agreement and who was part of that. We've seen through the congressional investigation, the congressional hearings, just how many people and the release of these files have shown just the, the magnitude and the scope of who was involved here. But I think what that also highlights is that remember this happened a long time ago. I mean those charges against Epstein were back in the 2000, like early 2000s. And so the fact that this really didn't get blown up until many years later, only as a result of the good reporting and, and media exposure, just highlights how things like this really get skirted under the rug. It also I think shows the way that media has a direct influence on prosecutions, on how things come forward. Because, you know, I still remember as a prosecutor getting advice from another prosecutor who said, you know, during voir dire, where you question which, which, which juror should be on the panel. And they said, you know, ask them if they've seen Pretty Woman and whether they liked it. And I was like, what a bizarre thing to. Why would I ask that? But that showed, in a sense, just what people's norms were. And norms, unfortunately, are a big part of how juries see or don't see victimization. Because victims, we want them to be these very innocent, angelic looking people when these are the toughest of the tough, they had to be. So in order to survive, they have criminal records, they have been abusing narcotics oftentimes. And that just, that doesn't take away from the victimization. And the highlight here being that this could happen to so many children and so many people looked the other way shows just how far we also have to go in changing public perception and also in changing the law. I mean, there was a time where minors were actually charged and prosecuted for engaging in prostitution. I mean, no child is a prostitute. They are a victim. And I know of victims who literally would take those sentences because jail was safer than going anywhere else. And that just shows how much work needs to be done to support victims and survivors and gaps that desperately need to be filled.
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Vanessa Richardson
Mary, that was incredible. Thank you so much. Before we wrap up, are there any final thoughts that you have for us today? This is. We've covered so many things, but I'm always wanting to talk to you. So any final thoughts before we wrap up up?
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Mary David
One thing that I would love to share relates to how great liability can extend even if victims are not able to get more justice in the criminal justice system. One way that this has been balanced that we've seen in the Epstein case is through institutional liability. So going after some of the complicit entities that helped to further this sexual exploitation. There was a settlement with JPMorgan Chase and Deutsche bank, both of which agreed to multimillion dollar settlements because they should have looked into these large sums of money that were being sent to young women and that these should have been caught by their normal internal audit systems. But those compliance mechanisms were overridden or overlooked because of the fact that Epstein was this wealthy financier who was bringing in additional business to the bank. These settlements are incredibly important to highlight because it's also a way of ensuring that other aspects, other players in the whole scheme here are aware and change how they operate because unfortunately for a lot of these institutions, the only thing they're going to be looking at is money and money makes change. The other thing that really struck me with this was in regards to how we are seeing so many things unfold in terms of litigation against Meta and and Snapchat as it relates to harms that are being perpetuated against children and furthering sex trafficking. And typically, a lot of these companies have been shielded by section 2:30, which is this prohibition on going after apps and social media networks, because they have this communications agreement where they essentially cannot be responsible. So it is said for things that happen on their platform, they are just a platform. They're not how the. The communication is essentially between the people that are involved. But that has been challenged and will continue to be an issue because again, these platforms are using algorithms that are specifically connecting certain people and aren't looking out for the safety of minors, especially when accounts are being reported and those accounts are still continuing to remain active despite parental pressure, despite minors sending in screenshots. I mean, it should be a much more transparent process. But I do hope that there is change from social media platforms and I'm glad that at least Congress is stepping up with some legislation.
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Vanessa Richardson
Oh, I agree completely. And again, as a parent, there's only so much we can do, no matter how connected we are with our kids. It's. There needs to be some kind of protection, protection and accountability and justice for those victims. Mary, thank you so much again for joining us on crime house 24 7. The Epstein case raises enormous questions about accountability, the mechanics of sex trafficking networks, and the legal challenges of bringing justice for survivors. Your expertise helped break down a very complex and often misunderstood area of the law. You are a star. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Walking us through how these cases are investigated and prosecuted and helping our audience better understand what to look for as the broader legal fallout from this case continues, as it will.
- [43:26]
Mary David
I'm so grateful to join you. Thank you for creating space for these important conversations because again, media has such a powerful role to play in accountability, in securing justice, and in ensuring that victims are heard.
- [43:41]
Vanessa Richardson
Thank you, Mary.
- [43:48]
Hi, it's Vanessa. If you're drawn to true crime stories about disappearances, check out the new Crime House original the Final Hours, hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Listen to and follow the Final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or
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Vanessa Richardson
New episodes drop every Monday.