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A
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A
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B
Hi Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers and I'm dropping in your feed today with a special guest.
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C
Hi everyone, I'm Brianna Whitney.
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B
For those of you who don't follow us on social or catch our content on YouTube, first of all, you've been missing out. But second, and importantly, you might not know that Brianna has recently joined the Crime Junkie team as our breaking news reporter. We have you guys know this an amazing team of investigative journalists who help me bring you our weekly episodes. Each one of those takes months to produce and we need a lot of information to cover a story in full length. Nine times out of 10, a lot of investigation means the case has been open or worked for a long time. But I am also constantly following breaking stories like I know you guys are too. I see you in my dms. I see you in our Facebook group. You want to talk and hear about stories that are unfolding in real time. Well, prayers answered. Brianna now does a weekly episode on YouTube covering true crime cases that are making headlines. I am crashing her episode today because this is one that I had to talk about with you now regularly. Your episodes are very much kind of, like, my solo episodes. And, like, weirdly, people think we kind of look alike, which, like, I hadn't planned, but, like, you'll be a comforting presence to our crime junkies. Now, you guys, I have been following Brianna for years. Almost like the same time I started podcasting. You started at Arizona Family, right? And Deep Tracks. I got a personal recommendation about how amazing that you were from Sarah Turney, who told me that if ever got the chance to hire you, I should jump on it.
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C
It took me a couple of years
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B
to get you, but I'm so happy that you're here now, and I'm especially grateful that you're here right now, because at the six month anniversary of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping, when all eyes are on this case, you have the inside track. You're like, the person.
- [03:23]
C
I lived it. This was a lived experience for me on this case. Yeah. So I'm obviously excited to be at Crime Junkie, and this happened right before I got here. But the reason I have the INS track on everything is because I was reporting at an Arizona news station, and it was like one of those alerts that came in where it's like, Nancy Guthrie is missing. Savannah Guthrie's mom. There's, like a search for her, and I literally remember me and my friends texting about it. Like, this is odd. Like, okay, but people go missing all the time, right? So we're like, okay, this is weird. Like, they'll probably find her. Strange. We are up in Phoenix. This is happening in Tucson. And I never could have predicted what would unfold from there. I lived the Nancy Guthrie investigation pretty much 247 for about a month. And I learned what was in those ransom notes that were sent to the media outlets, because they were sent to a news station that was part of the company that I worked for. And so that shaped kind of our knowledge of the reporting behind the scenes. And now information has started to trickle out. People are learning a little bit more about what they say. But I'm at the point now where it has been six months. Most of what has happened on the investigative side of things happened in the first month, really, of the. Of the case unfolding. Yes, I know there's a lot going on behind the scenes, but there's all these, like, inside sources that are reporting this and reporting that. And it's hard because there's been no press conference since week one, which is insane.
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B
Kind of wild. Yeah.
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C
Not kind of. I mean, it is crazy to me still that there hasn't been more. But at this point, I'M like, okay, there's inside sources coming out with things, but I know this stuff and I think the crime junkies want to hear it too. There's been no arrest, she's still missing. So I thought, why don't we just get into everything that the ransom notes say. I wanna tell you about what happened behind the scenes with authorities, with the sheriff. And then what I think people also really wanna know is like, how could this happen? Is there a possibility of what we could know? Right. And there's this retired chief investigator I interviewed who has this, what I think a very credible theory as to how this plan unfolded, how it was carried out, and why we might be at this place where there's kind of this stall. Right. We don't know where Nancy is. There's been no arrests, so where do you go from here? And we really dive deep into it. And I know the crime junkies are going to want to hear this.
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B
Okay. I actually, I think I'm a little flying in the dark a bit. But, like, I don't know some of this. I think we have a lot to cover. Let's just dive in, do it.
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C
I want to talk about literally everything. And I know the crime junkies want to learn all the new stuff. I mean, we're going to.
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B
I want to learn the new stuff.
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C
I want to tell you the new stuff. We're going to talk about all the details, like the wording, the verbiage in the ransom notes, why that all plays into this brand new theory that I think actually has legs from a chief investigator who lives in Colorado. And those are two really important things. But also the reason why we're here, some of this is the fact that there was so much going on behind the scenes with law enforcement, the way that this was unfolding, some missteps, but even things that were said to me, to my team that I've never talked about before, that I think just shows the public why this case has somewhat unfolded the way it has. And there's been a lot of frustration, and I get it. Frustration from me, behind the scenes, too. So those three things we're gonna get into, from everybody, and I know you're learning this in real time too, but I kind of want to just take the crime junkies through what we know, what unfolded in the first week, in
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B
the first year, people like, if, just in case they've been living under a rock for the last six months, like, give us the lay of the land or like, we are, you know, we've been somewhere else like, reorient us in this case.
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C
Right. Okay, so it's the end of January, right. It's winter Arizona. And I remember the news alerts coming into our phones, like, savannah Guthrie's mom missing in Tucson. Thought it was weird. And I was texting my friends. We were all like, what? Weird? This is weird, right? But it was.
- [07:46]
B
I remember thinking. Because, you know, she was older. I remember thinking, oh, she's probably like. It's probably like, a medical thing. Or everyone's like, oh, I remember people talking, like, she wandered off, whatever.
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C
Right. And it was also a Sunday, so there was, like, conversation that, you know, maybe she was just out enjoying a walk, got confused, something like that. And we didn't quite know where her cognition was at that time. But also, how many times have we seen this? That a vulnerable adult goes missing, and it. They're confused, they're found, Something like that. So at first, we're just kind of like, okay, monitoring. It's weird. Yeah, it's weird. Check it out. Side note, I had also just gotten knee surgery, so I was, like, barely mobile. So I was not even in a place to go to Tucson yet if there was something more. So I was monitoring it, literally from my couch. Oh, my God. Yeah. So there's just a lot going on. We get to the news station the next day, and it's off. Like, there's something off the sheriff, like,
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B
the vibes in the station or vibes with the investigation.
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C
The sheriff had come out really late at night. There was this, like, impromptu press conference outside of Nancy Guthrie's home. It was late. Like, it was on cell phones. They had streamed it.
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B
You could barely hear.
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C
It was just odd. It was almost, like, very haphazard. And that's odd for something like that?
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B
Trying to get ahead of something?
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C
I think so. And so, you know, we start looking into this more, and at this point, they're like, this is. This is an investigation. We still don't have a lot of details. And then we learn that there might be evidence that she was taken. That's where the investigation really changed in terms of. This isn't just wandering off. There's something more here.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Then we learned that Savannah had come back from New York. Obviously, she hosts the Today show. And just knowing what was going on now, this is. This was weird. So we started looking more into the coverage, and at this point now, they confirmed that she was taken from her home in the early morning hours of February 1st. So just. That becomes important in the timeline to kind of keep in mind the Scene is odd. I got there the second day and,
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B
like, actually to her house.
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C
To her house, yes. And just to orient people, too. This isn't like a super suburban neighborhood where the houses are close together. They're close to the street. Tucson is very vast. It's very desert. And this is the Catalina foothills area. So these homes are older. They're stepped back further in the lots. There's a lot of desert brush. There's a lot of cacti. When it's dark in that neighborhood, it is dark. There's no street lights. And if you have cameras on your home, they may not be able to see what's on the street. Just not only because it's pitch black, but also because they're far away from where the street is.
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B
Yeah.
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C
So knowing that she was possibly taken in the middle of the night, it was like, okay, that could be something you could get away with in this neighborhood. But weird factor number one, when we got out there was the fact that you could walk up to the scene. And I remember thinking this was odd that Pima county could walk up to the scene. I literally mean the sheriff's department gave us the okay at that time to walk up to the driveway and look at the front door. And that became a key in the investigation because there were drops of blood on the front porch, and you could very much see what it was. And all of a sudden, us reporters who were out there are like, okay, something's off here. And not just that.
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B
Did they not see the blood?
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C
They did. They did. But at that point, the Pima county sheriff's department said, we're investigating. We've collected all the evidence. The scene is secure, so it's clear. I said, just don't go into the backyard.
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B
Secure or release. Like, they were released. They've released the scene.
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C
They did release the scene, right? Yes. So there was. All they had, basically, at that point was the sheriff's deputies were kind of like, going up and down the street at this point now, there's a lot of media that had gotten there. They just said, don't go to the backyard, which we wouldn't do anyway. So I remember thinking that was kind of odd. Like, why are we allowed on this already if still missing? It's only been a couple days at this point. But the other key thing about that was the. The nest video camera was gone. And obviously you're thinking, well, what did that catch? Right. And was it stored in, like, a cloud where they could access the video? So that's all going on. And Then the ransom notes happen. This is a weird case, right? Like, this is all weird. We've got a grandma who's abducted or taken. We have blood on the ground. We have a missing surveillance camera. And then these ransom notes start coming in.
- [12:12]
B
And it was like, how soon after did they.
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C
Like, just a few days. Just a few days. It was in the first week of the investigation. So, like, this is unfolding. Like, each day there's something new, right? So just a couple days later, ransom notes go into TMZ and then the Tucson station, that was a sister station to the Phoenix station I worked at. And that upped the ante of everything because it gave two deadlines demanding millions of dollars in bitcoin. So now you're like, okay, wait, what's going to go on? And I want to get into what the ransom note said, ransom note number one and two. But that's what a press conference was called. The only press conference, by the way, that we've had in this investigation since it all started. And that's where we learned there was a 5pm deadline on that Thursday. There was another deadline on that Monday. And it started with $4 million in Bitcoin demanded for day one. And if you didn't meet that, then it was $6 million demanded for the next one. So now there's a ticking time clock as to what's going to happen. Whoa. Yeah. So I want to. I want to talk about the ransom note with you, and I'm going through my computer just to make sure that I get this. All right. There's been bits of this that have been talked about online. There's been parts that people know, but I don't think they know all of the verbiage. And I think this is very important because it sets the tone for what was about to come. So I'm going to read you part of it. This is how it started. Hello, Savannah. We have your mother, Nancy. She is safe but scared. She will be held for ransom, and once payment is received, she will be released unharmed. We will be holding her for a maximum of seven days. So they go on then to demand the millions of dollars and they give the two deadlines. But what is key here, I think, is that the money was demanded in USD, so US Dollar. Typically, if this is coming from somebody
- [14:08]
B
here, you don't say that.
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C
You don't say that. Which is key for this theory we're going to talk about later in the episode.
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B
So they're saying they will only hold her for seven days.
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C
For seven days, right. Then they get pretty demanding and snarky with how they address Savannah. And mind you, that's also important.
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B
Right?
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C
They're addressing just Savannah.
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B
Yeah.
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C
They don't say the Guthrie family. Hello, Savannah. We have your mother.
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B
We always wondered if it was, like, about who she was or did it just happen upon her, not knowing that it was going to garner this attention. But it seems like this was about. Or they at least, like, not necessarily about Savannah. But they knew Savannah had money.
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C
Yes, at a minimum, I think so. Savannah, I believe, was obviously, you know, the. The target of. Of where we would get the money from. If you are the person who was targeting this. And I think there's a reason maybe why they. They targeted her. I'll get into that, too. Okay, I'm going to read you three more parts of this ransom note and then we'll kind of talk about it after. So this is what it went on to say. Once payment is received to the bitcoin address below, she will be released within 12 hours of deposit to a safe drop off location back in Tucson. If the payment is not received by the last deadline on Monday the 9th at 5pm she will be killed. Your mother is aware of this, and her life is in your hands. It is in the best interest of everyone to have this completed as soon as possible. You will not be able to contact me from here on out. There will be no negotiation. Do not play games. Law enforcement will not be able to help you.
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B
Oh, my God.
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C
And then at the very end, they basically give what we learned in the press conference at the time, that there was something only the abductor would know, which was she had a white smartwatch that was on the floor near her bed, like at the foot of her bed. And then there was this floodlight that was destroyed in the backyard. So those two clues are what gave the FBI kind of the wherewithal to
- [16:03]
B
say this is not a hoax. At least they didn't think so.
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C
Or they were investigating it as possibly legitimate. They still are, by the way.
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B
Probably also why they kept you guys out of the backyard. Right. They don't want anyone reporting, of course, about the light. Okay.
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C
And so there was this. There was like a bitcoin wallet and address that was at the bottom of this. That would be where you would deposit the funds. And I think something that I took away from reading this right off the bat was that you will not hear from me. Like, they were cutting off communication. It was just like payments.
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B
We don't want back and forth. We want money. I've told you exactly what we want.
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C
Exactly. The other part that I think is really interesting here, because again, we have no idea where Nancy is. Went. Where she went, where she is. The specific verbiage of once they get the money, she will be released to a safe drop off location back in Tucson.
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B
Indicating she's not in Tucson.
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C
That's what I think. Now, could it be right outside Tucson? Very possible. Very early on, people thought that maybe she could have been taken down to Mexico. The border is very close there. It's easy to access. That's possible too. But I mean, this was pretty serious. And I think too, just like taking that tone of like, do not play games. Law enforcement will not help you. I mean, can you imagine reading this?
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B
Well, I mean, I would imagine they'd have to get out of Tucson. Like they know again, if they. If they knew who they were abducting, they were. They knew she was Savannah Guthrie's mom. You know that there is going to be a massive police press presence as soon as. As soon as this happens.
- [17:30]
C
Yes. So that comes in. And that at first, you know, they gave that to the FBI, to the authorities, to the Pima county sheriff's department. And at that point, too, is kind of where we were learning what the split was between what the Pima county sheriff's department was handling and what the FBI was handling. So it seemed that as the investigation unfolded, that kind of got a little blurry. The FBI was definitely not pleased about the scene being released to all of us. Why? Because they needed to go in and check what other evidence there was that possibly could lend itself to what now was coming in digitally. So what ended up really playing out was the Pima county sheriff's department was more so in charge of the, like, on the ground investigation. The scene itself, kind of. That the FBI was the go to for everything. Ransom note, digital tracking, like, all of that that you would think the FBI would be involved in. And that became key here. So they have this press conference. That's where they reveal these deadlines to us. And we're like, okay, what's gonna happen? Are they gonna. Are they gonna. Yeah, what now? Are they gonna put money into this? And at this point, now there's a reward that's also, you know, please come Forward for information. February 9th was that like next deadline? And then February 10th is the most pivotal day in the investigation. That is when the nest video camera was released by the FBI. So they had been going through trying to mine what they could that was on that camera. Shane and I Were heading down to Tucson because we had gotten a tip, an insider saying, hey, the FBI is going to release this. Like, director Kash Patel's gonna put this on his X account, his Twitter account. That is how they released this video. And so we're like, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, monitoring, monitoring.
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B
It's kind of crazy.
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C
I know. Okay. Yeah, right? So I'm like, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. We're on our way to Tucson. The video drops. And when I tell you I'm watching these clips, and it is so brazen the way that this person gets to the home that it, like, sent chills down my spine. Like, you're looking at this and you're like, oh. Oh, my God. Like, this is what you see in a horror movie. This is not real life. And mind you, and this, I've thought this the whole time, too. This would be a crazy story no matter whose grandma this was.
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B
Right?
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C
Like, grandma is abducted. We now have this insane video of this guy who is in a ski mask. He's got, like, something in his pocket. He's got a backpack. And he gets up to the camera, like, face in the camera, and he's got this, like, shrubbery. He's either trying to, like, hide it. What was that?
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B
People, like, dissected this video.
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C
Oh, my God.
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B
Ten ways a Sunday. Like, it was wild.
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C
Yes. How did he walk his gait? Could you tell? The backpack. The backpack, yeah. So we still don't really know the shrubbery. Some people say it was like, try to cover it up, but he knew it was there. Another theory that I've heard is maybe he was using that to try to, like, get it off the thing. Like, use the plants to get it off the whole.
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B
Like, when you guys went to the scene that first time and you showed up, did you think at all that, like, the police took the nest cam as part of their evidence collection, or was it, like, clear that somebody, like, ripped that off?
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C
At first it was possible, but it seemed odd, right? It seemed odd because you knew, like, in this day and age, 20, 26. Right. Like, the physical camera.
- [21:01]
B
But that's what seems odd about them taking it.
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C
Yeah, I don't know.
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B
It's like, what's the point of taking it? Everything's in the cloud.
- [21:06]
C
Maybe they didn't know. And honestly. And I'm going to get more into this, but, like, the criminal sophistication of the kidnapper. How scared out. Yeah, it might be a little lower than people think. Okay, so we'll get into that. But from now on, I'm gonna Refer to him as porch Guy, because that is how he has basically become known on social media, is Porch guy, who's seen in the video.
- [21:27]
B
Right.
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C
This brazen video. And we don't know how it ends. We only know when he goes in. So we can tell when the camera system was accessed, which was overnight he goes in. That's then disconnected, still overnight. And then really, the last trace of anything we have is when Nancy's pacemaker disconnected shortly after that. So she had a pacemaker, and that was part of this, too. Like, obviously, we're talking about vulnerable and frail. As the investigation's unfolding, the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department is like, look, she had a pacemaker. She had a very serious heart condition. She really couldn't walk more than a couple steps on her own. So, like, she did not just up and walk out of her house.
- [22:04]
B
And.
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C
And then you're looking at the blood droplets, and you're thinking, I mean, it kind of looked like almost like a bloody nose was dripping. I've also heard that potentially, like, was she bleeding from an injury? And it dripped off her arm, like, onto the concrete? The other hope at that point was, well, let's hope that this guy's DNA is in the blood, too. And it wasn't. It was just Nancy Guthrie's DNA. So you have that. And I thought, looking at the video, I thought if you were walking in a ski mask, I would know it was you through and through. Right. Like, if you're a friend or you know this person, you're gonna know who they are with the ski mask on or not. You're gonna know the way that they walk.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And I thought, okay, great. We're getting somewhere. We're gonna figure out who this is really quick.
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B
Let's start the clock.
- [22:49]
C
Start the clock. And here we are six months later. We still don't know who porch guy is, which is crazy. The other thing that was really unsettling about the videos that came out later was that the. We learned that authorities were like, hey, neighbors, check your surveillance video not only for the night of the January 31st into February 1st, but also January 11th. That was weird. And we still don't really know why that is an investigative date in this case. It is possible that the videos that Kash Patel put out, that one of them was actually from a couple weeks before she vanished. And there's been some dissection online of whether that's the case or not. It is possible that porch guy was casing out the area. The House before he actually carried out the abduction.
- [23:37]
B
Interesting.
- [23:38]
C
So here we are, right? We've, I mean, crazy week. We got abduction, we got ransom note, we've got press conference, we've got video. Boom. Ransom note number two. And ransom note number two had a significantly different tone than ransom note number one.
- [23:53]
B
And by the time you get ransom note number two, have any of the deadlines passed or all of them or.
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C
I believe it was in the middle of them. So I think there was still, like, you were still going to be able to get to the second deadline.
- [24:06]
B
Okay.
- [24:07]
C
But I want to read to you what this said. And I guess actually before I read it, Savannah Guthrie and her siblings had been very outspoken at this point on social media. She was using Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, basically putting out these, like, pleading videos like, we want our mother back. What can we do? Please show us proof of life. Proof of life becomes a huge part of this whole thing. Right. If you can show that you have Nancy Guthrie and proof of life, then we'll pay. Right. And they eventually offer also over a million dollars. I mean, they want Nancy back. So that's what they were waiting for. But obviously you're not going to willy nilly put money into a bitcoin wallet without proof of life that this person actually has, Nancy.
- [24:48]
B
Yeah.
- [24:49]
C
So ransom note number two. I've actually revealed a lot of the details on our crime junkie social media pages just a couple weeks ago. And the reason why was because inside sources were giving media networks and outlets like, bits and pieces of ransom note number two. They were reporting it. And I was like, at this point, people just need to know what it said.
- [25:06]
B
Yeah.
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C
But for those who haven't heard it, this is the verbiage that's in ransom note number two. We did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical conditions. We never intended to hurt her. That was not our intention. She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it was heart related. She is buried in nature now. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. And there was a lot of debate back and forth online on whether there was an apology or not. There 100% was at the very end of this. So obviously the tone has completely changed. Right. Yeah. And clearly at this point, if these are true, in week one of this investigation, Nancy Guthrie had died. Now, obviously they're trying to, you know, divert any blame from them. Like, hey, it was her health and we didn't know that, so we're not culpable. Sorry, sorry. And then goodbye. Buried in Nature now, verbiage. Right. Remember the USD, the US Dollar.
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B
Right.
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C
This is also a weird way of speaking. She perished shortly after she was taken. She is buried in nature Now. It's just a little off. And I believe this may be because the person writing the notes is foreign. English is their second language, or they are using, like, a translator to get their point across. We'll get into that in a second. So now you have ransom note number two. We now know behind the scenes is happening.
- [26:34]
B
Right.
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C
But the FBI and pcsd, they were never revealing what ransom note number two said, just that it was received. But Savannah went on to her social media and said, we've received your note. And at this point now, like, there's a very clear tone change in her, too. And the retired investigator I talked to said it was very much like a hostage negotiator type tone. You could tell that she had worked with the FBI, but at this point, now they're pleading to get Nancy back, no matter if it's dead or alive. Yeah. And you can tell at this point that she's like, we'll do anything to bring her home. Like, that became the hashtag was like, bring her home no matter what. And I just personally watching this happen, like, reporting on it, like, I was doing the job that Savannah would typically do on a massive investigation.
- [27:22]
B
Right.
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C
She is a seasoned anchor reporter. For her to have to be the story heartbreaking, like, awful. And I could not imagine the position that she was in, especially because we didn't know if her job was part of this, and she didn't know if her job was part of this. And it was just, like, heartbreaking to watch these videos. But there was never proof of life. The only thing that ever happened was that there was a very small amount of money put into the bitcoin wallet that came in in that first ransom note by authorities. We don't know who put it in there. We can assume that it was authorities and the Guthrie family together or whatever.
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B
Were you guys, like, watching it or.
- [28:01]
C
We could monitor it. There's only certain people who could monitor it who had the note. We could monitor it. We saw a very small amount put in. It was like a test with this attached note that said, contact us. We are ready to talk. Something along those lines. And nothing else has ever happened, though, in that ransom note. That bitcoin wallet was never active again, and nothing came of that. So my thought was, they're asking for proof of life. Clearly, if you believe these ransom notes are legit, they can't prove Proof of life. So, like, done. But we didn't really know if it was done or not because we didn't know if the ransom notes were legit either. Yeah, we still don't really know if they're legit. There has been some reporting in the past month. Reuters came out and said that they had this anonymous FBI source that had said all ransom notes in the investigation were fake.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah, all of that. That came out of nowhere.
- [28:49]
C
Yeah. And just like, a couple weeks ago, a week ago. And. And the FBI. I mean, I'm like, calling the FBI, right? Like, hey, is this true or not? And mind you, like, there's these two ransom notes that came in, and then there's like, this slew of all these notes and emails and things that are coming into, namely TMZ that have been reported over the past couple months as well. Like, one of them was this email that came in from this guy that was like, I know the kidnapper. I have video of Nancy alive on her last day with the kidnapper. It's on a. Like a phone in a secure location. And if you give me a Bitcoin, then I will reveal the safe location. Crazy. I mean, these are just, like, crazy things. We don't know if that's legit, but we do know that the FBI arrested somebody very quickly early on in the investigation for sending a fake ransom note. So we do know that they're able to determine what is and isn't real pretty quickly. That person has pleaded guilty. So that kind of leads you to believe that if they can deem that to be true, and if they're not saying anything about some of these emails, that they're still looking at these two notes as being credible, what connects the
- [29:51]
B
second one to the first one came
- [29:54]
C
in through the same tip line to the news station. They basically believe they referenced some of the same things, and it was a different IP address, but sent in the same way with the same kind of tone. So they believe that those were the two that came in from the same person at this point, that those two are related. Is it possible that they're not sure?
- [30:16]
B
Yeah.
- [30:16]
C
But the way that this was sent, and like, mind you, too, that's like a pretty interesting way to send something through a anonymous tip line to a local news station. It's like a jot form, so the way that it's sent, you don't see it, but they use different IP addresses, but they couldn't, like, track it. That was part of what was causing the issues as well. So you have those Two things happening at this point. The FBI has come out and on the record said that, yes, some ransom notes and some emails we've deemed to be. But there are still some that we are investigating as possibly legitimate in this kidnapping ransom case, which is likely. These two that we're talking about. We also don't know what else is coming behind the scenes.
- [30:57]
B
Yeah.
- [30:57]
C
And that's what's hard, too. Right. We've had no information trickling out. And I think from my perspective, reporting on this, there have been a lot of missteps. Like, so much so that I'm honestly concerned about if we ever get to an arrest, what the prosecution is going to do to actually try to get justice in the case. Because, for one thing, the scene. Right. Like, that was. That was bad. And the sheriff, Chris Nanos, did admit, like, we probably should. We probably shouldn't have done that. We probably should have kept it secure. Yeah, I'd say so. Because my DNA might be on the driveway and the porch. There were a lot of people up and down there. So, like, if that's a contaminated scene in a court of law, that's so wild. I mean, that could really impact everything. It's totally wild. Then you had what felt like this kind of tension between the sheriff's department and the FBI, and some of that came to be, like, where the DNA was sent. So PCSD was using this private lab in Florida, and they were sending stuff there, but the FBI wanted to use their lab in Quantico. It's like a premier lab that they can try to get things back quickly. And there was like this kind of, like, chatter online of like, okay, well, so and so doesn't know where this DNA is being sent. And we wanted to send it here, but you sent it there. And they had to address that. And they'd be like, it's fine, but like, it.
- [32:10]
B
But it clearly is not fine.
- [32:11]
C
It was not fine. So you had that.
- [32:12]
B
Mom and dad are fighting, like, Right.
- [32:15]
C
And then let's talk about some of what was said to me and my team behind the scenes from the sheriff. So I haven't talked about this before, but I think this kind of highlights how this all went. To clarify where the DNA evidence was going was of the utmost importance to accurate reporting. Right. Yes. In Arizona, the nightly newscasts are on at 10pm that is standard across the board. And as we all know, in this job, the news doesn't sleep. Right. But it's especially not sleeping in the biggest investigation in the country at 10pm, which is not even that Late. So we were getting ready for the evening newscast. And this is among like where the DNA evidence is going. What are you testing? How are you testing it? And my team sent a text to Sheriff Chris Nanos just trying to clarify what was going on with the DNA evidence so that we could be right before the newscast. So this was around like 9:50 that the text was sent to him.
- [33:17]
B
And this is like what, a week out?
- [33:19]
C
Yeah, this was within February. So it was like a week within like one or two weeks since she was missing.
- [33:23]
B
Still.
- [33:23]
C
We're talking like top lead story headlines across every news network every night at this point still. So my team texts him trying to get clarification. We immediately received a text back from him that said, did you happen to notice the time? Give it a rest.
- [33:41]
B
What?
- [33:43]
C
When I tell you we looked at that text, I looked at the text and I was like, you've gotta be joking. First off, first off, that text took more effort than simply a no or a yes, yes or respond.
- [33:59]
B
And to the point of timing. This isn't a year out and you're bothering him with his family. Like I honestly kind of expect you to be on it at 10pm a week out if we still haven't found her 100%.
- [34:13]
C
I bet the Guthrie family did too. I mean, I'm thinking like, Savannah's not resting, they're not resting, we're not resting. Like that just was such a snarky response. Give it a rest. To give it a rest. Like she's missing.
- [34:25]
B
And this is like your job.
- [34:27]
C
This is your job. And there was something that the sheriff said too in that press conference. Basically said like, you guys hold me to all my words. Like, yes, you're the sheriff of the most important or maybe biggest true crime investigation missing person. That is happening in real time in this country. Yes, we are holding you to your words because what you say is exceptionally important. And that. And in that timeframe, everything just went downhill. Like so on social media, people were fed up with Sheriff Nanos. He wouldn't do a press conference, but then he was doing like individual one off interviews, including with me, but saying different things in these different interviews. So then you'd have to go back to like the public information officers of the sheriff's department and be like, hey, he said this in this interview, but didn't say that in this. Is that true? And it would be like, you know, either we can't confirm or we can't comment. So then that just like muddied the waters even more. Right. With what was true and what wasn't. And I just feel like factually we needed to get the right information out there.
- [35:25]
B
Did he just not know what was going on? Or, like, was he. What. What was. What was that?
- [35:29]
C
Great question. I still honestly don't know. And there are things that have been said from him throughout these different interviews that I think he just kind of says and, like, it's not backed up by fact. Somewhat recently, he went onto a news station and said that there's been, like, arrests. There haven't. There's been no arrests. And that's kind of the other part of this, too, when we're talking about the missteps and just, like, the weirdness of it all. In that first month, there were three people detained in the case. One of them was a doordash driver that lived south, like, an hour south of Nancy Guthrie's home. His name was Carlos. He was detained, questioned, and then released. And then there were two other people who were detained in the case, Mary and Luke Daley. Mary was Luke's mom. They lived pretty close to Nancy Guthrie's home. I interviewed them both, and they still don't understand why they were detained. We still don't know why they were detained. Many people online still believe that Luke Daly looks like porch guy. I mean, they have online court of public opinion have decided that Luke could be porch guy, but Luke is adamant that he is not. We still don't know why these three people were detained. They were all released. There's been nothing more that has come of that. And there has been, as far as we know, no other detainments. And I think we would know that if there wasn't the case. So that's, like, where this kind of ends, because there's nothing more. We know that DNA is being tested.
- [36:52]
B
More DNA.
- [36:53]
C
Yes. So something that also. I'm like, remembering this as I'm going with you. I don't know if you heard about this, but, like, the black glove of it all was, like, a big part of this. So there was, you know, obviously the abductor was wearing gloves, so that became like, a key. What kind of gloves are these? Let's look for gloves. There was a black glove that was found on the side of the road about 2 miles ish from Nancy's home. That was tested, and that came back unrelated. It came back to DNA of a nearby restaurant worker.
- [37:20]
B
Okay.
- [37:21]
C
But then there was, like, other gloves found near Nancy's home. Like, everyone was looking for gloves. It was like a scavenger hunt for gloves. And the Sheriff basically came out and was like, oh, well, like our investigators like disposed of gloves, like on the ground. What are we doing here? I don't know. And I'm like, why would we do that if we're looking for gloves? Why are we just disposing of the gloves on the ground?
- [37:40]
B
Guess which one are ours, guess which one aren't.
- [37:41]
C
And he was like, some of them, they were blue. It's like, okay, blue black glove, let's just not put them on the ground. Right? Let's not, let's not. So the gloves part of this investigation hasn't really gone anywhere, but we do know that they were able to get mixed DNA from inside Nancy's home. What I mean by that is like there are multiple profiles in this DNA sample.
- [38:07]
B
Whatever it is, wherever it was from,
- [38:08]
C
whatever it is, wherever it's from. Right. And so they need to separate that and like part of that becomes, obviously we expect Nancy's DNA to be part of that. She's in the home. But like who else's DNA could be part of that? Perhaps her daughter, her son in law,
- [38:21]
B
friends who visited, friends who visited. You know, that's not necessarily the spoken gun. It could mean, it could be the thing, but it could mean a number of things that are completely unrelated.
- [38:30]
C
Right, exactly. So they need to separate that DNA and see if there's like an unknown profile that matches somebody who shouldn't belong in the home and then do genetic genealogy on that. We haven't heard anything more on that. I actually thought we were going to hear more about the DNA by this point and we have it. So that's ongoing.
- [38:44]
B
I'd be surprised. I mean like, especially with mixed samples. I know that getting, getting like a sample that's like good enough to do genealogy or like enough is like very difficult.
- [38:55]
C
Yeah.
- [38:55]
B
And even if they get to that point, then you have to do you have to like contend with the fact that like depending on like who our perpetrator is, I mean, there are so many like populations of people who are underrepresented in these databases that take forever to find, if you find them at all.
- [39:12]
C
And that could very well be the case. So that should still be going on behind the scenes. We haven't gotten an update on that. And then there's really been like tips or just random things that have come in throughout the couple months that are like, oh, a tip came into this group in Mexico that Nancy was buried at these unmarked graves and they sent investigators out there, they didn't find her, that didn't come to fruition. Then you've got TMZ receiving these emails. Oh, we her last known days are on this phone and this video in this secure location. If you give me this, I can get there. And obviously nothing's come of that either. And that's like kind of where this all stops. Like this is where we're at now, six months later. I cannot believe that this is where we're at with no answers, no arrests. We don't know where Nancy is, and we don't really know what exactly is happening behind the scenes or what's come in besides the fact that they're DNA testing.
- [40:07]
B
Wow.
- [40:08]
C
So why did this happen?
- [40:10]
B
Right?
- [40:11]
C
Like, yeah, what do we think? And that's where I recently interviewed a former chief investigator who has come up with what I think is a very educated, well thought out, well researched theory. There's been a little bit of chatter of it online. She's talked about it, she kind of put out this paper on it. But I really wanted to dive in deep with her. And based on everything we know, I think that this could be very plausible. Again, anything could be the case right now. Right? We don't know where Nancy is, We don't know what's happening. But why did this come to fruition in the first place?
- [40:44]
B
Right? Did this investigator have the information about the notes that we all have now?
- [40:49]
C
She had some of them. And the US dollar is actually gonna be the key here. So her name's Lisa Miller, she's out of Colorado. She's been featured on a lot of different news programs. True crime. She is a seasoned investigator now. She works as a consultant. And so she basically put together this pages long sub stack report or paper on what she believes happened here. And weirdly enough, right after she did that, this cybersecurity firm actually came out and categorized the Nancy Guthrie abduction as the same thing she had talked about. So that even made it feel more credible. So let's talk about it. Lisa Miller believes that this is something called an evolved wrench attack.
- [41:30]
B
What is an unavoidable.
- [41:31]
C
I don't even know what a wrench attack is. Neither did I. So a wrench attack basically means that you are targeting somebody's digital assets, namely bitcoin cryptocurrency. Like they are wealthy in this. You are targeting them for that, to extract that from them. Now, Nancy Guthrie, nobody is saying that she was just had all this bitcoin or cryptocurrency, right? So that's what kind of makes this evolved. The thought here was that she was the target. The vulnerable target. And Savannah basically was like, we're gonna leverage Savannah's wealth by abducting Nancy Guthrie to extort the money that we want in cryptocurrency. Okay, so following, presumably.
- [42:15]
B
Cause that's, like, the most untraceable or.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah, that's what I. Yeah. Way less traceable than any sort of other money transaction. So what are the factors here? Savannah Guthrie, Public figure. Right. We know that she likely does financially well, given her job and what she does. But there's two things that I think might have been the reason why this was the Savannah and Nancy Guthrie target itself. One, Savannah's always public, but she had been even more public lately because she was getting ready for coverage of the Olympics. So there was a ton of promo and press on NBC that was going on about that. But they also had recently done these segments, the anchors of this Today show, where they were going to their hometown in November. And it's actually a really cool and cute story. I just rewatched it last night. It was, like, eight minutes of Savannah going back to Tucson, Arizona, checking out University of Arizona, where she was, you know, looked at sorority, where she ended up getting her law degree. Like, she talked about all of that and then why she loves Tucson so much. And one of her favorite places in Tucson is this restaurant called El Charo. And in the piece, she goes there with her mom, Nancy, and her sister. And, I mean, you can, like, feel the love. It's, like, so palpable as to, like, this family loves each other. They're talking about the history. And Savannah's basically asking her mom in this, like, you know, what made you stay in Tucson? And she was just like, I just love it. Like, the pace of life, it's slower. She wants to watch the javelina run. And, like, there had been neighbors that have posted on social media, too. Like, she installed cameras at her home because she wanted to see the wildlife. Like, she wanted to see what Tucson, Arizona, has to offer as your home. And it's quick. Like, she's not in it a ton of. But you can see she's there. You can see why she loves it. Savannah's kind of showing the remote, you know, vast nature. We don't know if that's something that these people saw, but it was something that her mom was recently featured in that showed them, like, at home in Tucson. And her mom is, you know, a vulnerable adult. So she had been very visible. Right. Like, that's what anybody would have seen Savannah on more. So there's basically two Parts of this theory that come to play here. One, I'm gonna refer to him or her as the mastermind. There's the mastermin mind, who is likely overseas or foreign, who comes up with the digital plan of it all, Basically, the sophisticated plan of the communication of how they're going to extort this ransom. In cryptocurrency, they're highly sophisticated. That's how you know to use the different IP Addresses they're using, like this encrypted tip line. This is somebody who knows what they're doing.
- [44:48]
B
Right.
- [44:49]
C
Like, this is something that they do. So you have the mastermind that comes up with the plan, and then, according to this theory, they hire what we would call, like, the local actor or the local recruits. Porch guy. So porch guy likely was hired by the mastermind, somebody who's local to either Southern Arizona, perhaps Mexico. And it could have been him and, like, maybe another person. Right. We don't know if there was, like, a getaway car or somebody else that helped pull off, like, the physical abduction over and over and over again. While reporting on this story, I had so many experts, like retired FBI agents, retired homicide detectives, tell me that based on the video and the way that the abduction was carried out, that this person was not a skilled criminal, like, not sophisticated. This was a sloppy job, X, y, and Z. And I kept thinking, okay, but what
- [45:36]
B
are we doing here? But we pulled it off. Yeah.
- [45:38]
C
Like, so how. How sloppy is it? And I think that that's where these, like, two people come into play. The. The brains of it all is coming from the mastermind. The porch person, the abductor themselves is just, like, being paid to carry out this job. And maybe they aren't super skilled, but they did enough to pull this off. Right. So it all starts as planned. The ransom note is sent. Here's your deadlines. Nancy's been taken. We're gonna get the money. And then the plan completely fails because they didn't account for her health condition. And I don't think that they accounted for her to die. And that's where this all kind of starts to fall off the tracks. So you've got the Guthrie family begging for proof of life. They can't give it. So now you've got the ransom note from the mastermind, who's, like, pretty cold, right? Like, removed. This person is likely thousands of miles away, does this, you know, for, like, a living, and was just like, we didn't plan for that. Sorry. Out right now. Porch guy left with Nancy, has to find somewhere to bury her Remains and tried to get out unscathed. So you've got this problem of now what do you do? Because if the mastermind had left, like, kind of left the investigation, like, cut ties, didn't work out, moving on, and porch guy, or whoever is involved in the actual physical abduction of it, buried her remains somewhere and fled, where do you go? Like, you're stuck. And part of the problem here is the fact that if the mastermind is foreign, right? And what leads us to believe that is that's the person writing these ransom notes.
- [47:16]
B
That's why they're USD.
- [47:17]
C
USD perished. Like things you maybe almost would either use a translator, perhaps like chatgpt, I don't even know. But, like, things that you and I would not say to each other is likely coming from this person that is concocting this whole plan from afar. Now, it's possible the FBI knows more than we know, and they maybe are able to figure out, like, where this person is. But it is also possible that wherever this person is, doesn't subpoena or extradite to the United States of America. So that could be a huge problem with, like, access that the FBI could get. It's also possible that they've encrypted everything and there is just no trace of them. So now the question, according to this theory and with Lisa Miller, who came, who, you know, shared this with me, was like, so now what if the mastermind and porch guy have cut ties with each other, the mastermind may know why the plan was concocted, how they came up with Nancy and Savannah, what they wanted to do with it, but they may not know where Nancy is now, her remains. And porch guy may know where Nancy is now. It's likely that that person has fled either possibly to Mexico, knows where Nancy is, isn't telling mastermind, and doesn't really know why the plan ever came to fruition in the first place. Porch guy may not even know the identity of the mastermind. Just getting paid for a job. So if they're not communicating, you're stalled.
- [48:34]
B
Who sends the second note in this scenario?
- [48:36]
C
Mastermind. All communication in this theory is coming from the mastermind themselves. All the communication.
- [48:43]
B
If he doesn't care, though, like, why bother? Why take the risk? Why bother sending that?
- [48:49]
C
The second one. Yeah. Or the first one. The second one, I think because he wanted to, like, done. Cut Cut ties. This isn't going to work. You won't hear from me again. Like, right, like you're not going to hear from me again. We're done here. And kind of like put that closing chapter. And if that is the case that ended in the first week of this investigation, everything she. She'd passed, this would be the last communication. So now it's like, okay, so how do we move forward? According to this theory, for there to be any movement, you would need there to be incentive for the mastermind and or porch guy to come forward with more information about where Nancy's remains are and to believe that they could still make a buck from doing that.
- [49:35]
B
Money. Money.
- [49:37]
C
Savannah Guthrie. And the Guthrie family has been pretty outspoken that they will pay to receive Nancy. They want to bring her home. They want closure. If she has passed as they believe she has, they obviously want to, like, pay their respects, say their goodbyes, and, like, have her home. Yeah. So is that enough for them to come back forward? So I only see four options forward here if this theory is correct. One, the mastermind reopens communication with the Guthrie family. Is that through a news station tip line? Is that directly to them? I don't know. Obviously huge liability there if they do that. But if they feel like they can get the money, that's one way. Number two, DNA results come back and they identify who porch guy is. That would be great if that happened. I don't know if that's possible. Number three, somebody comes forward with information who can identify porch guy, which we were hopeful for six months ago. And number four, and this might honestly be what I think is realistic, that Nancy Guthrie's remains are eventually found somewhere in nature by, like, a hiker or somebody doing target practice out in a rural area. I do think it's possible they're in the desert in southern Arizona.
- [50:49]
B
That's a lot of desert.
- [50:50]
C
It's so vast. You and I have both been there. I mean, it is just. It could be years. And I do think that that's how possibly that she will be found. But all of these, like, lack actual answers. Like, who is the mastermind? If that's true, who is porch guy? Will we ever get the why? Yeah, I don't know. But obviously, like, number one now is just like, bring Nancy home and how.
- [51:11]
B
I think the question I have is, like, how often, often is this happening? This seems like not a one off thing, right? This seems like a practice. Like, you. You knew exactly what to do. There's a name for this, right? This wrenching or whatever. Like, how often is this happening? But it's not Savannah Guthrie's mom. You know what I mean?
- [51:28]
C
I think more than we think, because when I was going and Looking up the wrench attack, like, not just the definition, but just more reporting on them. I noticed, like, an Associated Press article came up from last year. Like, there was more articles that were coming up about this rise in wrench attacks, and this one just might be a little bit of a different one. And, yes, has got gotten immense spotlight because it is Savannah Guthrie's mom. But this is something that seems to be on the rise, like, targeting digital assets. The. The fact of it, though, is, like, how were they able to pull off an abduction of a Grandma?
- [51:57]
B
Yeah.
- [51:58]
C
In 2026, where DNA is huge, where cameras are huge. Like, I still can't believe that we're here now.
- [52:05]
B
Do you think they're gonna come out and. And do a press conference or say anything or, like, is it just gonna be, like, silence still?
- [52:16]
C
I think that a press conference will happen only if there is a massive update. I do say that, though. And we thought that the video, when it was released, of the abductor was a massive update, and they didn't do a press conference then either. But, like, I think at this point, the options are, like, either they identify who porch guy is and they arrest him, and that's a press conference. They identify where these ransom notes are coming in from, or deem them, like, these are legit. We've identified who they came in from. That's a press conference. Or obviously, if Nancy is found. But it just feels, like, so radio silent right this second. And that's the problem. People have, like, relied on inside sources to try to come forward with any information because we've learned not a lot from the actual agencies. They're not saying a lot. And so it just leaves people, like, wondering, speculating, guessing, theorizing. And I do think that this could be credible and based on everything we know.
- [53:05]
B
Right.
- [53:06]
C
Like, the way these are written and, like, how this has been carried out, this is possible, but it's still really unsettling. Like, we don't know what happens. So I'm going to be back in Arizona, and I am going to stay on top of this case. Like, I've never seen something like this. And I hope for everybody's sake that we get some answers here, that the Guthrie family gets closure.
- [53:26]
B
Yeah.
- [53:27]
C
But I think, like, crime. I hope the crime junkies can watch and listen to this and feel a lot more educated about everything that's gone on in this case and, like, really understand what's at stake here and what's been said in hopes that, like, there are answers sometime soon.
- [53:42]
B
So you guys make sure you are following us on social on all the channels that way. Brianna is going to be back in Arizona like she said soon. She will be on the ground in Tucson the second anything breaks or happens. But if you want to be in the know on all headline making cases, make sure you head to our Crime Junkie YouTube channel. Brianna releases a new video episode every Wednesday. I've had a heavy hand in crafting these stories with her so it feels like the Crime Junkie you know and love. Brianna's already covered like four or five cases. She'll be back on YouTube next week with a new one and I will be back in audio and on YouTube Monday with Brit for a brand new episode of Crime Junkie.
- [54:31]
C
Sam.
- [55:04]
B
Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. I think Chuck would approve. Whispers in the dark phenomenon that slip past the logic legends that refuse to die when the unknown stirs. Its trail leads to our podcast so Supernatural. I'm Yvette Gentile. And I'm her sister Racha Pecorero. Together we explore all of the world's most bizarre mysteries. Listen to so Supernatural every Friday wherever you get your podcasts.