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C (2:22)

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A (2:23)

Visit t mobile.com hi crime gen keys Today I have something a little different for you. A conversation about a cold case. But it's not between me and Britt. Anyone with a crime junkie's social media algorithm knows that. This month the Boulder PD released a public briefing on the JonBenet Ramsey case. Now, for those who haven't heard it or seen the video, let me get you up to speed.

C (2:47)

Hello, my name is Stephen Redfern and I serve as the Police Chief for the city of Boulder, Colorado. I'm speaking on behalf of the Boulder Police Department, as I did this time last year, to give you an update about the ongoing investigation into the tragic murder of JonBenet Ramsey. JonBenet was murdered in December of 1996 and our officers responded to investigate. While I was not at the Boulder Police Department then, I've worked in policing for more than 25 years and I want to assure the community that our agency is committed to doing everything we can to bring justice to JonBenet and hold her killer responsible. My direction to our department has been leave no stone unturned, follow the leads wherever they go, engage with and use outside partners, resources and expertise, and never stop working to bring justice in this case. Last year we gave you an update about a lot of the work that has been done to solve this crime and those efforts have continued. This case remains a top priority for our department. This past year, our detectives have conducted several new interviews as well as re interviewed individuals based on tips that we've received. We've also collected new evidence and tested and retested other pieces of evidence to generate new leads. Techniques and technology constantly evolve. This is especially true with technology related to DNA testing. Detectives continue to consult with outside experts from across the country as well as our state and federal partners to strategize and explore all options when it comes to evidence testing. This will ensure we continue to use the most forensically sound and up to date methods in all aspects of the investigation as they become available. I have also met personally with the Ramsey family to let them know about some of this work. I've told them that we share the same goal to find and bring JonBenet's murderer to justice. Our detectives will not stop following up on every lead and every tip until that person or persons is found. While we cannot go into the specifics of who we interviewed, what we tested and what we've learned without compromising this active investigation, we know it's important to share this update with our community. And that is why I'm speaking to you today. It is Never too late for people with knowledge of this terrible crime to come forward. And I urge those responsible for this murder to contact us. Next year will be 30 years since JonBenet was murdered in her own home. She should be with us here today, living a full and happy life with her family. Let me be clear. The Boulder Police Department will continue to work diligently to investigate this crime, follow up on every lead, and evaluate all technological advances that can help us solve this crime and bring JonBenet's killer or killers to justice.

A (5:47)

Now, I too can't go into specifics about who I've interviewed and what I've learned, but since releasing our episode on JonBenet's case last year, I haven't stopped looking into the case. And I hate to be as painfully vague as the Boulder pd, but that's all I can say for now. Now, Boulder PD hasn't said what evidence it is that they're looking at specifically, but last year, as part of my coverage on JonBenet, I got to sit down with her father, John Ramsey, and there were specific items that he wanted tested, which could be what Boulder's focused on now. Now, we released that conversation I had with him a year ago on YouTube. But because most people consume our podcast in audio only, many of you haven't heard that conversation yet. So that is what I'm bringing you here today. In early November 2024, John Ramsey invited me into his home for a one on one conversation. Here's what happen.

B (6:53)

Sam.

A (7:17)

To start, I feel like there is this perception that, that when you do kind of interviews that they're very orchestrated or there's this party line and they're like, oh, John's so composed. Or it's John's Tales and we reached out to you. There is no off the record on.

B (7:33)

Like you told me, I've done a number of interviews over the years and my main reason for engaging the media is to keep pressure on the police to do their job. And I've never wanted the questions in advance because I want to respond spontaneously. If I have a made up answer, then I'll think, what was my answer for this question? I'd rather just ask the question and I'll spontaneously respond. And it could be, when did you stop beating your wife? No boundaries questions.

A (8:06)

I got lots of questions. Yeah.

B (8:07)

And so it just is easier for me. It's almost like I don't have to prepare.

A (8:12)

Ideal. Well, I did prepare for the both of us.

B (8:16)

Okay, good.

A (8:18)

Jonbed she would be. We were talking about this earlier too like, she would be almost my age right now.

B (8:23)

Yes, I realized that.

A (8:25)

And what is that like? Like, is she. What is she when you picture her? She's stuck at six, I would imagine.

B (8:30)

Oh, absolutely. She's still my little girl, and I can't imagine what she would be like as an adult.

A (8:38)

Do you feel like you're ever stuck in 1996?

B (8:44)

No. I may have learned two things. One, life's not easy all the time, and life's not always fair. And it's like, okay, those are the game rules. Let's keep at it. And one of the things I've noticed with families who have lost a child, and I've looked at this in some detail, I don't know what the percentage is. It's a majority percentage end up in a divorce. And for Patsy and I, we. Fortunately, what really got us up off the floor was the realization we have three other children now that need us desperately to be strong. They're hurt, they're crushed. They've lost at their age. They shouldn't have to deal with the loss and death of a family member.

A (9:26)

Do you feel like you're still in shock?

B (9:29)

You don't get over the murder, the loss of a child, you get. You move beyond it.

A (9:35)

Did you ever give yourself time to have a pity party? Because if anyone deserves a pity party.

B (9:38)

You do once in a while. Yeah, well, what was interesting was sometimes I'd be down, Patsy be up, and we sort of could offset each other.

A (9:46)

We'll get into, I think, you know, why they kind of looked at you guys as a whole. But even in looking at the family, I do feel like, at least initially, Patsy, like, bore the brunt of that. She did, and for, like, a long time. I even watched something they did on Netflix a while ago called the casting JonBenet. And there's, like a line in there where the guy is like, oh, I bet she was probably a horrible of a mother.

B (10:08)

Oh, she was a wonderful mother, an amazing mother.

A (10:11)

Why do you think they, like, they latched onto her so much when I know that there was. If people want to have questions about what happened in the home, why is it her that everyone became fixated on?

B (10:23)

Patrick is a very strong woman. Maybe didn't come across so good on television, I was told by people. But she was a wonderful mother. She's a wonderful stepmother, and I never heard her say anything negative about anybody. She's just a good person. And so for her to take the brunt of that assault is just so unfair. When we lost JonBenet she got very focused on Burke. I mean, that was our goal, was try to give him as normal a childhood as we could possibly give him amidst all this chaos that was going around us. We did. We were afraid somebody had attacked our family. We don't know who it was. And we were frightened, quite frankly. And one of the challenges, how do we wanted to keep Burke out of photograph, out of video and pictures so that people would know what he looked like. And so how do we get him from. We were living with friends when we were in Boulder so he could finish his school year. How do we get him to school without being photographed? And it became a project in a way. It was. It was diversion from grieving. We would send out a. A decoy car. Burke would be in another car, on the floor in the back seat.

A (11:49)

Just to go to school?

B (11:51)

Yeah, to go to school. And we get him to school unphotographed because we wanted to protect him.

A (11:59)

What were the kids at school like to him?

B (12:01)

Well, the kids are wonderful.

C (12:02)

Really?

B (12:03)

Oh yeah.

A (12:04)

And like, that's the first time I've ever heard that. Normally school age kids are awesome.

B (12:07)

Well, I say that. I mean, from my perspective, they seem like they really were great.

A (12:11)

Did you guys have any moments with him where you, like, you're asking, I think about like, kids, like, what are the things that the parents don't know, like what's happening?

B (12:20)

No, you know, you know your children well.

A (12:23)

And I'm not even necessarily talking about like him doing something, but I'm saying, like, you know, they hang out together, they have the same group of friends. Like, was there someone that maybe she didn't tell mom and dad about, but she's gonna tell her brother about or her brother, like, did you guys have any of those, like, moments with Burke to be like, help us, help us figure this out?

B (12:41)

No, because we really just wanted him to be separated from it, from the chaos and the. We wanted to have to be normal. And that was very difficult because being followed around by the media and going through the grocery store line and seeing your sister's picture on the front of the tabloid, it was difficult to give him a normal life.

A (13:03)

Do you think he might still still know something that he like, doesn't even know he knows?

B (13:07)

No. Burke's a very solid person despite all, and went to college, graduated, had a good job ever since. Well, thought of by his employers and very, very disciplined. Buys used cars and know not. He's a good adult and he was a good son. If, if he knew anything, it would not Be something he would.

A (13:40)

Thought is important.

B (13:42)

Important.

A (13:43)

That's what I'm saying. Like, I wonder if there's something in there. Like, even so, I know in the Dr. Phil, one of the things that came out was the idea that you used a flashlight to put him to sleep and that he came back down to play with a toy. Like, when he's down and people are sleeping, does he. Has he ever talked? Like, did he get the sense that someone else was in the home? Did he hear anything? I don't know how. Like, how long was he up?

B (14:06)

No, we've never asked him that. I don't know. I didn't know, frankly, that he got up again. I'm not sure he did again. That's fiction. There's so much fiction out because it's.

A (14:17)

Just thrown out there. It's just Dr. Phil who says, you got up to play with the toy. And Burke says, yeah, I did. It was something that I wanted to put together. And then it kind of just like.

B (14:26)

Well, you know, again, when we got home, John had fallen asleep.

A (14:30)

I know, I know. You and Burke came.

B (14:32)

Put her to bed. Burke and I sat down and tried to put together one of his little toys for a little while just because he wanted to. And then he went off to bed.

A (14:41)

You're saying, like that whatever. Whatever Dr. Phil said and Burke said on the show, he didn't come back down.

B (14:47)

I would. I didn't know that he came back down if he did.

A (14:51)

Does stuff like that make you want to be like, oh, my gosh, maybe there's something. Like, maybe there's something.

B (14:55)

He knows Burke would have said something if something was weird, but he may have misunderstood the question too, that.

A (15:06)

Do you think Burke regrets doing it?

B (15:08)

Well, probably, but, you know, the things that were interpreted by the Internet crowd. Well, he's smiling. Burke talks with a smile.

A (15:18)

Yeah.

B (15:18)

You know, just the way he is. You ask him, you know, what time it is, he'll smile.

A (15:23)

Yeah. They lit him up after that.

B (15:25)

I know. And it was very unfair.

A (15:28)

Do you think there's, like, one thing that th. That those people who will never believe you, like, hone in on, or, like, one thing, you're like, man, if we would have done this thing.

B (15:38)

Well, I don't. There's one thing, but, you know, we were portrayed as very rich people. We didn't consider ourselves rich. We built a little computer business, sold our interest to Lockheed and I mean.

A (15:58)

For like a pretty penny, though.

B (15:59)

But I got. That was more money than I ever thought I'd have in my life. You know, but we didn't. I still was working, still figured I needed to have a paycheck coming in and. But we were portrayed as. I was president of a company that had done a billion dollars in revenue. We were a distributor, grocery store, you got to sell a lot of milk and eggs to make a little bit of money. And that was the kind of business we're in. So in our industry that was not a huge business. But that was publicized a few weeks before John Monet was murdered in the local paper. But they perceived therefore I must be a billionaire. Well that wasn't true. I was an employee of Lockheed. But people don't like rich people. And we were portrayed as super rich, callous. Everybody knows rich people don't love their children kind of people, I think, I don't know. And then, then we got in this child beauty thing which Patsy and Jon Monet had fun with it and Patsy's philosophy with our kids, let them try anything they want to try. Patsy, when JonBenet was, she'd have been maybe four, I guess was diagnosed or maybe three, three or four diagnosed with ovarian cancer stage which has about a five year life expectancy and that's it. And Patsy was so distraught she'd say, God, why did you give me these beautiful children if you're not going to let me be here to raise them? But she was a fighter and she beat it. She was in remission for her was a huge gift that she can now perhaps look forward to being with her children when they go to college, get married and have her grandkids. But I think deep down she knew that may not happen. And so she tried to cram a lot of mother daughter stuff into their, their lives together. She was a natural. She loved performing stunner. Yeah, yeah. It's just the way she was. And she'd put on little skits at home and make us interrupt our dinner, watch the skit that she and her friends put on. So it just, that was her personality and they had fun with it, but it wasn't an obsession. And of course the media presented it as Patsy was this dominant mother who was living vicarious with her daughter, forcing him to do this stuff. That's, that was nonsense, gentlemen. I had fun with it and loved it.

A (18:23)

If people say that you profited off of it, what's your response to them?

B (18:27)

You're joking. I lost my job. I was not employable. I had, I had a company. Tell me, look, we'd like you to come work for us, but we can't afford to have our good name on the front of the National Enquirer. So we can't hire you. I was unemployed for, gosh, I don't know. I don't. Five, six, seven years and I couldn't get a job. Lockheed was wonderful to me at the time, at this time, you know, they were. Couldn't have been more wonderful to me during the time I was still working for them. But they were in the process they wanted. They had acquired our company to try to diversify their business model. And after a couple years, they decided we can't do it. We don't think that way. We're, you know, military, industrial, government contractor. We can't, we don't know how to deal with in the consumer world. And so they were in the process of selling us and four or five other companies they bought to try to change their model. And they engaged a conversation, I guess, with GE and GE was going to buy us, it looked like. And I'm sure, and I don't fault them, great company. But this Ramsey guy is a lot of baggage. Is a baggage. It's big baggage. We can't. This isn't going to work. And I didn't work for another, gosh, I don't know, five or six years because I couldn't get a job. We were scraping by basically selling assets, selling our home, just trying to create an income that way. But no, I talk. I profited from this. This is, that's absurd.

A (20:21)

I think people, I think people would just look at the books. I think they would say, oh, well.

B (20:27)

The book, the first book we did get, what do we call it, an advance. And that kept us going for a while financially. By the time I wrote the second book, the whole book market had changed and the advances just weren't there. But I did that second book mostly to help people because I'd gone through this trauma, of course, the loss of a child. My faith, you know, was really challenged. How could God let this happen to a child? And the book I wrote was really. I felt very compelled to try to help people. The journey I went through wasn't to make money at all.

A (21:08)

A lot has had to have changed over 30 years. Like when you think about, like you're in it day one in the house, you think it's a kidnapping. How do you think differently now about the ransom note than you did day one?

B (21:21)

Well.

A (21:24)

Like, I, at least I have to imagine, like, if me, I imagine that I've like picked this thing apart 10 Ways to Sunday.

B (21:33)

Didn'T make Any sense.

A (21:34)

First of all, I know in some of the interviews they bring up for Patsy, it goes back to the note. And I think one of the reasons they keep those who believe she wrote it perpetuate the idea that she wrote it is because it seems like it's not the clear, like, answer or direction of like, how much of the note she saw because, like initially issues, you know, it's like our daughter, we have your daughter. And then she goes up and looks. But then she talks about later looking out the window and seeing that it's a marked car and being concerned. And people will say, oh, how did you know that? You know, that was. That was later on the note. People will say, oh, when she calls 911, how does she know how it's signed if she only saw the first page, you know, 30 years ago?

B (22:18)

Yeah, I don't. I don't know. You know, it was chaos that morning and I really thought I could get John money back. I really did. We'd arranged, you know, I don't have $118,000 laying around, but a friend of mine who was my banker got my ATM limit on my Visa card jacked up, jacked up. And I gave that card to. Forgot who it was. Somebody was there to go get the money and they came back and didn't get the money. And I was like, why? Why didn't you get the money? Like, well, no, I don't need to do that yet.

A (23:02)

But anyway, why 118, that's something that everyone.

B (23:05)

Yeah, that there's. It met something to the killer.

A (23:11)

What do you think it means? Like, I mean.

B (23:12)

Well, the only number that correlates that I know of is my bonus that year from Lockheed was 118, 000 and it was paid in January. Now we're in December. It was on my pay stub every.

A (23:34)

Did you have those somewhere in the house?

B (23:35)

Oh, yeah, I'm sure laying around somewhere.

A (23:38)

Did they ever find them?

B (23:40)

I don't know.

A (23:41)

So it comes back to somebody who's like so clear. I mean, clearly they know. They know she's in the basement. They're not actually looking to get the money. But you think it was more of a message?

B (23:51)

I think it was a mix. I mean, why not a million, why not 500? You know what's. Why not a big number? I mean, that's a big number, but doable. And why 118? Why not 100? Why not 200? It meant something to somebody.

A (24:07)

People will. They just pick it apart.

B (24:10)

It's crazy. It's it's like I was criticized for disturbing the crime scene when I found Jon Monet. Oh, my God. He moved the body. If you're a parent, what would you do? You'd pick up your child. I was hoping. I was relieved. I found her, thank God. Took the tape off her mouth and tried to untie her wrists. I couldn't because it was tied so tightly. I didn't even see the groat. It was so deeply embedded in her throat. Oh, he disturbed the crime scene. That was wrong. It's like, that's laughable to even say something like that. Of course you would.

A (24:53)

And have you ever been back in the house?

B (24:55)

No.

A (24:56)

Would you ever go back?

B (24:57)

No. No, we couldn't initially. This wasn't even A friend of ours helped us move back the bar stuff, and we moved to Atlanta, which was our home. That's where my family was. That's where Patsy's family was. JonBenet was buried there. My oldest daughter was buried there. So I was accused in the media of fleeing to Atlanta.

A (25:26)

But, yeah, that's something that people talk about is they say, oh, so, I mean, day one, you know, they find JonBenet. And within, like, within the hour, John's on the phone saying, I've got to get to Atlanta. And people say it was for a business meeting. Like, what was that?

B (25:44)

Well, that's not quite the way it was.

A (25:46)

Yeah.

B (25:46)

So there's so much misinformation out there. It was hard to even combat any of it. But Atlanta was our home. We had a family cemetery plot. That's where JonBenet was going to be buried. My oldest daughter was killed four years earlier in a car accident. She was buried there. That was our focus, to get JonBenet buried, taken care of. Boulder was not our home. We had a house there, had a job there, but it wasn't home. Home was. Atlanta is home.

A (26:17)

Do you mean like you had a support system?

B (26:19)

Yeah, and we lived there for 30 years.

A (26:23)

When you made that, would you make the call? Because did you or you didn't make a call to start?

B (26:29)

I don't remember that evolved. No, I didn't actually. I'd asked one of the detectives. There's only one detective there that morning. Everybody else was on vacation. It was Chris Day after Christmas, but there were lots of detectives, some police there. And I just. I can't remember what I said, but, like, I want to go home. And he's. He said, yeah, that's fine, go. And Lockheed sent one of their airplanes out, which is wonderful, and flew us.

A (27:08)

Back to Atlanta, so.

B (27:10)

And took one of little Burke's friends with him at the last minute.

A (27:13)

Oh, really?

B (27:14)

Yeah.

A (27:14)

What friend came with him?

B (27:15)

I can't remember his name, but it's one of his buddies and the mom. They were at the airport seeing us off. And I forget how it came up, but can whatever his name was, Taylor, can he come with us? And they're like, I'm sure he could, but I don't know that his mother wouldn't.

A (27:34)

Yeah.

C (27:34)

What would I.

B (27:35)

And his mother. Yes. That's great. Wonderful.

A (27:38)

Oh, wow.

B (27:39)

So Burke and Patsy and I and this little friend are on this Lockheed plane that flew us back to Atlanta. And that's as far as our planning had gotten. There was no planning. You're in shock. When we left the house that morning, after we found Jon Monet and never went back in that home, we were staying with friends. Friends took us in, and a lot of our friends were there to support us. Yeah. And the police came several times, and we sat and talked to them. And when it started to not go so well because we tossed to the police with, oh, my God, they're. There are saviors. We gotta. This is in their hands, and we trust them. And I had gotten a call from one of the fellows I worked with. He said, I got a call from inside the system, get the best defense attorney he can get his hands on because they think he killed his daughter. This is like the next day. And I was like, unbelievable. So anyway. But anyway, the police would come to the house and we'd talk to them as much as they wanted. They'd ask questions, and we did the best to answer them. And then they showed one of our friends that was there bringing food and help, comforting stuff, Was a former attorney with the district attorney's office. And he was kind of observing things.

A (29:14)

You know, That's Mike.

B (29:15)

Mike, yeah. And the police were saying, well, we need you to come down to the station. You can please come here. We. We can't work. We're secure here. We're safe. Patsy sedated in bed. She's not capable of getting dressed and going down to the station. You come here, please. Oh, no. We need you to come to the station. Why? And this, I think, was Linda Ard, actually, now that I think about it. And then Mike stepped in and said, timeout. Because he knew the police department. He'd worked with me before. And he said, we'll get back to you. We're not coming down to the station today. We'll get back to you. And the Next day. And I'd gotten that call, which I hadn't told anybody about, that I needed to get a defense attorney because the police thought I killed my daughter. This is the day after they hadn't even looked at evidence or looked our family history or anything. It was like, had to be the father. It's always the evil father.

A (30:15)

Were they thinking it was you?

B (30:17)

So this was Linda Arndt. I'm sure that.

A (30:20)

So Linda thought it was you. And then this idea of Patsy comes from someone else.

B (30:24)

Paralee.

A (30:25)

Okay.

B (30:28)

And so our focus was to get JonBenet buried properly in our family cemetery in Atlanta, get back to our family for support. And we did that within days of this happening. And what we learned, this was part of what made us really mistrust the police, was we went back to Boulder to get Burke back in school after we buried Jominet and help police, you know, and our attorneys, who Mike had brought in on his own, he had said, john, would you allow me to do some things here that was nest that were necessary when we did this timeout, we're not coming to the station. I said, yes, absolutely. So the next day, he's introducing me to my attorney. One attorney can't represent both parties, so Apache had to have an attorney.

A (31:30)

We have these crime junkie rules, and one of ours is get. Always get a lawyer. So, like, first of all, I would have done that day one.

B (31:36)

Yeah.

A (31:37)

And you know, our other is we always say, like, you don't ever know. You don't know everyone inside and out. 100.

B (31:42)

Yeah, that's true.

A (31:43)

But did you ever question, like, does she know? Does she know something? Did you guys ever have a moment in private where you're like. Or never, ever, ever, ever.

B (31:50)

Patsy had survived stage four ovarian cancer, was given the gift of life again for a while, which she was so thankful for. And she originally, our attorney said, look, this is nuts that you even looked at as suspects, but this will get resolved in a couple months. So, you know, if you hire heart surgeon, you better hire a good one. Yeah, it's going to be expensive, but it's only going to last a couple months. And it lasted about three years. And we got to the point we said, we're out of money. We can't keep paying. And they said, it doesn't matter. We'll. We're committed to getting this horrible lawyer corrected. And so they. They worked on our. On our behalf for several years for no charge.

A (32:51)

Oh, wow.

B (32:52)

But we were out of money. Couldn't. Didn't matter.

A (32:54)

When Was that, like, how long did it take to, like, burn through it?

B (33:00)

Couple years, probably.

A (33:01)

Yeah.

B (33:03)

Yeah. Yeah, probably.

A (33:04)

What did they think about you guys doing cnn?

B (33:07)

Oh, that. That was. And that was a mistake. We shouldn't have done that.

A (33:13)

Was that, like, did they advise against it?

B (33:16)

Did they think they. Strictly advised. Well, we never asked them. We were back in Atlanta for the funeral. Some of our Boulder friends were there, and they say, oh, my God, you know, the media's going crazy. You've got to show them that you're normal people and Boulder's a wonderful place. They're really focused on making Boulder not suffer a reputational damage. Nuts. But that was their focus.

A (33:39)

That's weird, though, right?

B (33:40)

Oh, totally weird.

A (33:41)

What was their goal, like, to make Boulder looks like. I don't think it makes Boulder look good because there's you. I mean, you guys are saying there's a madman in Boulder.

B (33:50)

Yeah, well. And of course, Boulder was like, they. The authorities. The mayor at the time said, oh, nothing to worry about. You know, this. There's no killer out there. Because she'd been told by the police that us, parents, we know it's parents. We just got to prove it. And it's weird. It was weird, but that we shouldn't have been doing an interview like that.

A (34:19)

What did your lawyers say when they, like. Because, I mean, did they just see you on TV one day? Because I think that's the thing. People will be like, I don't understand. Like, John's a smart guy. He's con. He's consulting his lawyers for everything. How does his lawyers not know he's going on cnn?

B (34:32)

At that time, we'd been introduced to our lawyers, but we then immediately flew back to Atlanta for John Renee's funeral. We never had not met with our lawyers.

A (34:40)

Oh, okay.

B (34:41)

It was a horrible mistake for several reasons. One, we were no shape to do an interview. There's no point in doing an interview other than to satisfy our friends who are pressuring us to show us.

A (34:54)

Why did they want you on TV so bad? Like, that's the part that never made sense.

B (34:57)

Well, they were concerned that the media was instantly piling on us as the killers and that that was horribly wrong and you need to show yourself and defend yourself.

A (35:13)

Why are your friends, like. I mean, I appreciate that they care for you, but it's just like, well, they don't know.

B (35:18)

They weren't any more expert at it than we were. And so we just reluctantly agreed to do it. But in retrospect, that shouldn't have happened. And our Attorneys. Well, in fact, from that point on, our attorney said, no, you're not. We are not going to respond to the media accusations. You're not going to respond to them. We're going to defend you. In fact, they said, look, we will guarantee you one thing, money back. Guarantee we'll destroy them in court. This will be a cakewalk if it gets to that point. But they said, we can't practice law in front of a CNN camera. That's not our job. We don't know how to do that. And they were. They were frustrated by that because we were being accused in the court of public opinion. But they wouldn't.

A (36:09)

Couldn't respond because there seems like there was this huge rift that, like, I. I've. I've not seen in such a stark way. I've seen it happen before, but between the DA's office and the police, and it's in. And, you know, you had lawyers who I think knew, you know, they knew the DA kind of grew up with them, worked with them, like. So I think that you guys obviously had an amicable relationship. They're the one you eventually go and talk to.

B (36:33)

Right. I don't know it. What I was told the police were like, oh, we know who did it. Go arrest him and prosecute him. The D said, DA says, well, show me the evidence. Well, we don't have that much evidence. We just know they did it. And so the D. A. Wouldn't charge him, and the police took that as a. An offense. And apparently that happened a lot that happened in our case.

A (36:57)

I feel like there was like this circle where it was a lot of that, where I kept hearing, like, the DA's like, get the evidence. The police would say, and I don't know what's true, but the police would say, we're trying to get the evidence, but you're stalling us.

B (37:11)

Right. That's kind of.

A (37:12)

What do you feel like that, like. And I don't know what advice you were getting or what was happening, but I do see moments where there are certain things where I think, like, the, like, phone records, like, the police say they don't have phone records until, like, a year later.

B (37:27)

Oh, no. We gave them everything they asked for when they asked for it. Early on. We gave them phone records, we gave them credit card records, full access to our bank accounts, everything. Everything they asked for. The only thing they asked for a year later, which they should have asked for. Yeah, in the beginning was our clothing that we were wearing that morning because they found unidentified fibers, pubic hairs, Were not identified. A year later somebody said, oh, you should have asked for their clothing. Well, they finally did and we had to show us a picture. I don't remember what we were wearing, but we supplied. We gave them everything they asked for when they asked for it. Handwriting samples. We had to write that horrible note right handed and left handed. So they had samples of our handwriting which didn't match. So they wanted to arrest us on probable cause. They probably did this. So let's arrest them and beat a confession out of them. In fact, we were told by the D A two things later, years later, the whole police case was based on. They didn't think we acted right that morning. And the strategy to solve the case was to bring intense pressure on Patsy and I so the innocent one would confess.

A (38:49)

What did they mean by you didn't act right? So, like, what were the things that were bothering.

B (38:52)

That's the interesting thing. I read that there was one detective there, this woman who. I don't know if she'd ever investigated a murder or not.

A (39:00)

Probably Linda aren't. Yeah. Because she came when it was still a kidnapping, right?

B (39:03)

Yeah. They went to the sheriff's office, got a book on how to deal with kidnapping. They didn't know. And I read her report much later and it was just nuts. But the things that she observes would say, yeah, that's not what you'd expect because the way she wrote it, for example, she said John was. I observed him going casually through the mail waiting for this phone call from the kidnapper. I was looking for another communication for the kidnapper. We had a pile of mail that had come through the front door slot laying on the floor. I was going through it to see if there's anything else from the kidnapper. She should have been doing that. But she interpreted as casually going through the mail while waiting for a call to come in. She also said 10 o' clock came and went. John didn't go nuts because the call didn't. We didn't get a call. The note said, I will call you at 10 o' clock tomorrow. I didn't know if tomorrow was tomorrow or the day we were in. So when 10 o' clock came and went, I thought, oh my God, I gotta wait another 24 hours for this call to come. So it wasn't a big surprise that he did call because it said tomorrow in the note. What was the other thing? It was just nuts. Oh, when. When he found JonBenet there was. He didn't cry, There was no tears. I can just. People react Differently than trauma. But when I lost my daughter Beth in a car accident, JonBenet's older sister, I was mad. I didn't cry. I was mad. I was mad. Why did this happen? I was mad at God. With Beth and. And then with JonBenet, it was. And what I guess they didn't understand was when they're making these observations of our behavior. When I lost Beth, I got a call. It was over. I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't get her to the best medical treatment. I couldn't go by her side and comfort her. It was over. It was done. She was gone. With Dombenet, it wasn't over. I could get her back, and I really thought I would, but I had to keep my wits about me and I had to keep my head together and do whatever I could possibly do. Not knowing what to do, but which.

A (41:33)

Is actually how I think I would respond to a traumatic situation is I'm very like, jump in and act.

B (41:37)

Yeah.

A (41:39)

The thing that I think other, like, people don't understand that this is the one that was hard for me is like, it's said over and over by Linda Arndt that you and Patsy are just, like, completely separated. What was your expectation?

B (41:51)

Well, Patsy was literally sitting on the floor with a big bowl in front of her, ready to throw up. Quite honestly, she was devastated. And so she was over there. That's fine. She's. That's okay. I was focused on trying to get JonBenet back. How do I get the money together? He wanted $118,000 in an attache case. How do I get the cash together? I was working on that. I gotta get my daughter back. That was my focus. Patsy's okay. She's.

A (42:27)

She's got friends around her.

B (42:29)

She had friends around her. I gotta get my daughter back.

A (42:32)

That was the other thing Linda says in her interpretation of things, that you disappear for an hour.

B (42:37)

That's not true. Yeah, no, I. I was looking out the window occasionally to see if I could see anything. But, no, I didn't disappear for an hour. Linda Arndt was nuts. She, on national television, said, well, I knew he was guilty because I saw it in his eyes. I thought, well, that's quite a talent. But she was. She was way in over her head and not. I don't think she's playing with a full deck.

A (43:08)

Aside from that first day, did you ever, like, do other interviews with her or have much interaction with her? None of did she. Did her and Patsy end up having a relationship with.

B (43:19)

Well, you know, she Was our savior. I mean, she came to help us. You know, you call the police, you expect him to come to help. We trusted her initially, before we'd seen this report, all these crazy observations. And so she was kind of our policeman personified. We didn't know any of these other people had come involved from the police department, But Linda was there that morning when we had this horrible tragedy in our lives. So it's kind of a bonding in a way.

A (43:50)

So did they, like, even after that, her and Patsy had conversations afterwards? And a few, okay, yeah, I've heard that, but I didn't know. It seemed like you guys had such a bad experience with her that I was surprised.

B (44:00)

Well, at the time, we didn't know it was a bad experience. You know, you call the police, you think they know what they're doing and that you trust them totally to do the right thing.

A (44:16)

And did patsy ever tell you what they talked about? Because I think that's like a big mystery to people is, like, why.

B (44:23)

I think. Well, I think. I can't remember. It's been so long ago, but patsy wanted to know who killed her daughter and what are you doing? What. What's. What's going on? What. You know, that was the kind of level of conversation I'm pretty sure Gary oliva did.

A (44:39)

You want to talk about him?

B (44:40)

Oh, yeah. He. Well, he was the. The lead that the d. A. Gave us and said, the police won't follow up on this properly, but it's a significant lead.

A (44:50)

And it was back in the day. I remember reading. Yeah, it was early on in, like, the 90. The interviews you guys did back in, like, 98, when they were like, do you recognize this name? Do you recognize this name?

B (45:00)

Yeah.

A (45:00)

And Gary Oliva was on there.

C (45:02)

Yeah.

B (45:03)

And say the circumstantially is very compelling. I don't. I know the he. Our guys looked at our investigators and kind of confirmed the circumstantial information that was given to us and turned it over to the police. We. My memory is that they interviewed him but didn't. Kind of blew it off. I don't know if they did DNA testing, handwriting samples.

A (45:32)

I've seen some handwriting recently, more recently. I don't know if they just recently got collected. They're bringing it up again. But I've seen some handwriting samples that look promising. But I also think that handwriting, 30 years later, now, people look at it sometimes the way they do with, like, bite mark, which is, like, kind of junk science. So I don't know.

B (45:51)

Well, yeah, it's Not. It's not admissible in court. Yeah.

A (45:54)

And so I don't even know if they would. The way that they felt so strongly about Patsy in 1996. I don't know that they would. Anyone would feel that way now if we were.

B (46:05)

Again, it was wrong to feel that way back then. She was 4.5 out of 5, which is pretty much no way.

A (46:12)

But I think it was. Cause it was her notepad, pen from. To your point, it was like.

B (46:18)

Well, again, yeah, but so it was in the house and the person was in the house before we were. And none of that. It was her paintbrush. That was a little. Okay, sorry. We didn't have the paintbrush locked up.

A (46:32)

Yeah. It seems like there were these cultural shifts. I think there was that distinct moment in 2016 when everyone started looking at Burke and that's become the big story now.

B (46:44)

That's absolutely insane. Burke was a 60 pound 9 year old little boy. This is a sexual assault, a violent assault. It's just it. Even the police immediately said no. He was interviewed by a child psychologist, which I guess is normal for two days early on. And they said, no, absolutely no way. He was, hadn't, wasn't aware of anything that happened and certainly wasn't the killer. And so that's just absurd foolishness.

A (47:23)

What was your, what was your thinking that morning when you're getting him out of the home? Because I know he. You guys go to check on him, you think he's still sleeping. He, he says when he does his Dr. Phil that he's awake, but he's, you know, clearly there's something going on. He's like, I'm not, I'm not messing with it. I just am like waiting till they come and get me. Why did you guys want him to not be in that, in that environment?

B (47:47)

Well, the police were there. It was crazy to us. He was a little boy. We wanted him safe and protected and, and he took some of his Christmas presents with him and went to stay with a friend in his house. It was a way to get him out of this nightmare into a safe place.

A (48:09)

Did you guys feel like he was safe? Like, I think that was it hard. Cause I think it would be hard for me to like, I, like I'm missing one child. Like, I don't know if you could get me to let go of the other one.

B (48:18)

Yeah, well, no, we, we trusted our friends. They were good friends. Their son was Burke's age. They were buddies. They'd been friends for a long time. It was a safe place for him to go.

A (48:31)

Did they have his. Fleet took him away. But then Fleet comes back. Right, but were his in laws or something at the house? So. So there was like someone there with the kids, you know, 30 years ago.

B (48:43)

Yeah, I don't. I don't know. You know, it was chaos that morning and I really thought I could get gentleman a back. I really did. And. But I never dealt with that or, you know, John Douglas, who's probably the premier crime profiler, started that whole FBI program, crime profiling. We spent some time with him over a period of time and he. His profile of this was that this was a Fairly young person, 20s to 30s. Fascinated the movies because there's some movie quotes in the ransom note and it was either very angry at you personally, John. Were very jealous of you. John. This wasn't about John Bonet. That's John's assessment.

A (49:37)

And do you still believe that?

B (49:39)

I think that's part of it. I really do. But whoever did this is. Is a monster.

A (49:46)

You believe that.

B (49:47)

You're the why I accept John Douglas's theory as credible. I really do. Yeah. You know, two weeks before her murder, our company had achieved a billion dollars in sales for the year.

A (50:04)

Right.

B (50:05)

And for us, that was a big deal. And I, We. I wasn't even paying attention. And our financial guy said, hey, we're going to hit a billion dollars. Holy mackerel. We need to have a party for our employees and make a big deal of it. And our marketing lady said, let's let the newspaper know. And I had this gut feeling. Another lesson. Pay attention to your gut feelings. Had this gut feeling that's a bad idea. But I let him do it.

A (50:37)

Why does. Like if the. If this. If it was about money and like at your greed and going back to a lot of things, the note said, what do you think? The way that they. This the sexual component to this and the way that they staged it. Like why. Why that piece of it if it goes back to being about you and about money? Like that's.

B (50:55)

No, it doesn't make sense. I agree. No. Well, whoever did this is, you know, crazy, demented human being.

A (51:04)

Yeah.

B (51:10)

I know. It doesn't. It doesn't make a lot of. I don't know.

A (51:13)

I know you guys have been extremely clear that there was no sexual abuse on your part. Any family members part.

B (51:20)

Our doctors can testify to that.

A (51:22)

Well, that was my question. So I know that you guys have been clear. Do you think that she wasn't abused by anyone ever? Even if there's.

B (51:28)

We don't we don't know that for now. We don't. I mean, there's. We never suspected that, but we don't know that.

A (51:37)

I mean, what. Most people don't. Right. Like you, but it's. One in five girls are sexually assaulted.

B (51:46)

We don't know for sure.

A (51:48)

You know, did they ever look into knowing John Douglas's profile? I know he said 20 to 30, but his profile of this being a young, really unsophisticated person. Did they take a really hard look at, like, the other kids in the neighborhood?

B (52:00)

No, they never did any neighborhood survey. They never went door to door, which is a huge mistake.

A (52:08)

What's so wild to me is, like, they. They like the first Officer, French, I think was his name. He goes to the room that John Benny's found. He just doesn't open the door. It's latched, so he's like, no, thank you.

C (52:18)

Right.

A (52:19)

How does Fleetwhite open the door and not see?

B (52:21)

I don't know if that's true. That's a huge red flag. She was right there.

A (52:28)

I mean, because you, like, the second you open the door, you see the.

B (52:31)

You see the microsecond.

A (52:34)

It doesn't add up.

B (52:35)

No, it doesn't. And that's. Again, you don't know if that's fiction or fact. There's so much fiction that was put out by the police.

A (52:42)

Like, I mean, so I know you guys don't have much of a relationship now, but, like, are those some of the questions, like, the hard questions that, like. I mean, again, I think my. Like, this is my friend that I'm gonna be, like, in their face.

B (52:52)

Tell me how this makes sense, what I think happened. First of all, I think the police took Fleet away from the home we were in that morning or the day after. And he came back after a couple hours and was different. I think the police were leveraging Fleet to use him. You know, we. We have evidence that the family killed JonBenet, and you need to help us here. And I. I don't know, but they said he was different when he came back from meeting with the police for two hours.

A (53:24)

Because you guys have, like, a huge falling out, right?

B (53:26)

Like, well, it was just because it was bizarre. I mean, he came back to Atlanta to attend the funeral, and we made arrangements for our Boulder friends to stay with Atlanta friends in their homes. And our friends that we had that person stay with called. They didn't call us, but they called somebody that was helping us and say, we want. We want him out of our house. There's he's bizarre or something screwy. And so we put him with my brother. My brother called me a day or so later and said, do you have a gun in the house? And I said, no. Well, Fleet is on his way to your house. We were with Patsy's parents. Something's wrong. And.

A (54:20)

What was he saying? Like, I mean, for your brother to say he was a gun, like, that's scary.

B (54:24)

Of my brother's is passive. A person you just ever want to meet.

A (54:29)

So what does he say when he gets to you? Because I know in Patsy's deposition, she's like, I don't know. I was in the basement. Like, I'm not part of that conversation.

B (54:35)

Yeah.

A (54:36)

And it seems like she never, like, asked you, but, like, what is that conversation?

B (54:39)

I don't remember. I honestly don't remember.

A (54:42)

And then he comes one more time. When you're back in Colorado, it, like, comes at you kind of again, like, interrupts the meeting with you.

B (54:48)

We were with our priest or minister, and he barged in. And I think. I think it was just a hugely. At best, it was a hugely upsetting thing for Fleet to be in the periphery of all this.

A (55:08)

At worst.

B (55:11)

Well, I don't know. I mean, I'd been with him a lot, and I have no doubt that the police used him. Probably said, well, John thinks you killed his daughter and you got to work with us here. Don't know that for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised. I had clean. I used to sail. Fleet was a really expert sailor, and I was not, and I bought the sail.

A (55:39)

Were you in the Navy?

B (55:40)

Yeah. That doesn't matter.

C (55:42)

Okay?

B (55:43)

It's irrelevant.

A (55:45)

Sure, sure.

B (55:46)

I think it was a sale, you know, I don't know. It's a couple years later, I sent it back to him with the note and said, look, I don't know what the police told you. I'm sure they've probably told you things that weren't true, but I absolutely don't think you were involved in our daughter's murder. And I never heard back from him, but just. I knew him. I knew him well. I knew his kids.

A (56:13)

How do you not, like, go like. Like. Like, shake it out? Like, this is the part that as I'm like, I, like, so hard to understand, and I understand why people spiral. And then his wife, I heard, was telling Patsy, like, I, you know, I need a couple minutes. I might know something, but I'm just like, God, there's. Is there something in there? How do. How do you. How do you feel? You have to, like, what is it that that, like, makes you not be. Not be the Fleet who's, like, holding onto people's collars?

B (56:37)

Yeah. I've told people, look, if you were a male living in Boulder on the 26th or 25th of December, 1996, you're suspect in my book. I can't rule you out. I don't know. I'm so suspicious and frightened and bewildered. You're a suspect in my book. I don't trust you.

A (57:03)

What was the deal with the 23rd 911 call and my favorite character, Fleetwood?

B (57:10)

Yeah, there's weird stuff like that. What was the deal? He somehow. He dialed 911 from our home phone and meant to dial something else. I can't remember. I don't remember if the police came or they just called us back, but we said, no, no, that was. That was a mistake, I guess.

A (57:37)

Do you ever ask him about it?

B (57:39)

Ask Fleet?

A (57:40)

Yeah.

B (57:40)

No. You know, early on, you know, I was just so crushed. I wished I would die. Was that hurt? People say, did you think about suicide? Well, it crossed my mind, but that would impose more hurt on my children. That's. That's a dumb thing to do, but I would have been happy to die. I was so devastated. So you don't think about much else, I guess, other than your loss. And, you know, the. As I say, the Fleet stuff was weird, but it didn't. It didn't fit with who I knew as a person. I remember he didn't re. React well under stress.

A (58:34)

I remember reading an anecdote you had about a sailing with him and how he just kind of, like, froze and you had to. Yeah, you guys had to come get saved by someone.

B (58:45)

Well, we'd gotten into a really rough weather, and a line had got wrapped around our propeller as we were coming to port. We couldn't steer the boat, and we're getting blown into a big rock wall and.

C (59:00)

And.

B (59:02)

Somebody. Weather was blowing like crazy, and we're like, okay, this is the end of the sailboat. You know, we're not killed, but that's going to be the end of the boat. It crashes into that stone wall. And so he just acted very flustered and overwhelmed by difficulty. And I sure sort of attributed some of his behavior to that. I don't know.

A (59:33)

I know. I think I would just bulldoze through my life. I would, like. I would probably ruin every relationship I had. Like, truly, like, it's something I think it would. I think it would consume me because I think I would pick apart and maybe These are the people who can survive it and the people who can't. Because I think I would. I would hunt down Fleetwhite and I would like, you know what I mean? And I would like. I would pick it apart, even if it was my own child, and probably to the detriment of my child. And I think that's what so many people. We think we know what we're gonna do in those situations.

B (60:01)

Well, but you can't assume that. I mean, it's like getting hit by a speeding truck. It's so devastating. Emotionally, your system's in shock. I mean.

A (60:22)

Have you had different theories over the 30 years or.

B (60:25)

Well.

A (60:25)

Or has it been pretty much the same? Or did it.

B (60:27)

I mean, John Douglas's theory, when he presented that to me was sobering.

A (60:31)

It's like, who hates. Who hates you that much? Like.

B (60:34)

Well, that's what I said to John. I said, I don't. I've never. We had 700 employees. I knew most of them, but not all of them. We've had the fire. Fire. Some for different reasons. But since I was the president, I guess conceivably they could blame me for the loss of their job, let's say. But I, I said, I've never made anybody that bad. I can't imagine that. And he said, you may not even know him. They read about the paper, they observed your, you know, we were bowlers are very liberal, far left community. And what does that mean? Well, very. It's described jokingly as 32 square miles surrounded by reality. And we knew that going in. We were capitalists, we were businesses, capitalists. They're not really welcome here. It was this feeling we got. But, you know, who could do this to a child? But anyway, John is very. Has lots of credit on his resume to being right.

A (61:54)

Between him and your PIs, have you over the years come to at least your best working theory of. Of what you think happened? Like the. The order, what was staged?

B (62:05)

Oh, I think. I think the person came into our home when we were gone that evening, went out for dinner, was there when we got home and waited for us to go to bed. That same scenario happened about nine months later in the same neighborhood with a little friend of JonBenet's. Fortunately, the mother interrupted it. But to me, they're very potentially the same person. Police blew it off as the same. But I know the father of that second little girl absolutely felt there's a lot of similarities. They knew that the killer was in the house or the. Fortunately, the child wasn't. Killed. But they came home same that we did. Set the burner alarm, went to bed. So the killer had the, the bad guy had to be in the house waiting when they got home.

A (63:02)

So you think he's. He's in the house waiting and then what?

B (63:06)

And then we went to bed. And we believe that, as do experts, that a stun gun was used to silence JonBenet. She was taken down the basement.

A (63:17)

So you think that he went up to her room first, got her there, and then, and then took her to the basement?

B (63:23)

That's. Yeah.

A (63:25)

And do you have any. And I'm. I know this is like a little bit of detail. Details I know you've lived with for a long time. Do you, do they have any ideas about what the intention was? Like what. Some of the sexual activity, some of the choking, you know, the COVID something.

B (63:40)

Up, you know, Blue Smith, this detective that was retired, brought out of retirement. Legendary detective in Colorado. Solved over 200 homicides. Amazing man.

A (63:50)

Yeah.

B (63:52)

Was brought in by the D. A because I think the DA suspected the police had it kind of messed up. Lou spent a couple months looking at the evidence and very conclusively in his mind said no, there's lots of evidence of an intruder. His theory was it was a kidnapping gone wrong based on the evidence. And I've always thought those two conflicted between John Douglass's theory and Lou's. But somebody pointed out to me, well, no, they, they don't necessarily conflict. And it's like, yeah, you're right.

A (64:28)

Do they, do they think that the person wrote the note while that he's in the house waiting for you guys to come home?

B (64:35)

John Douglas said nobody could write a three page ransom note after murdering a child.

A (64:39)

Okay. So that's done earlier.

B (64:41)

You know, their war brain is going crazy. And he said that note was written before.

A (64:47)

Where do you assume it went wrong? So if he wrote this note to get her out, like why does he take her to the basement, you think?

B (64:54)

Well, there was, I don't know, I mean the. She was sexually assaulted. Apparently there was a suitcase. When the so called detective that was there this morning that day said, well, go look through the house, see if you see anything unusual. And I reported to her that I went to the basement. There was a suitcase standing up on, you know, on its bottom under a window. And the window was open. I said that suitcase shouldn't be there. It looks like it may have been a step to get out of the house. And apparently they found. And I don't know this for a fact, but I, there's so much information out there, you don't know what's right, what's wrong. But they apparently found fibers from JonBenet's clothing in the suitcase along with a doll or something. And Lou's theory was they may have tried to get her out of the house in the suitcase, and it went wrong and it didn't work.

A (66:03)

I don't know when you first saw the window, because you had gone down initially. But you said when you first saw the window, you didn't think to mention it.

B (66:11)

No, no, I did, bitterly. Yeah, yeah, I, I, the window was open and he had a pane broken in it and the suitcase propped up underneath. And I told Linda Arendt, the detective, I said, look, that suitcase should not be there.

A (66:29)

And you told her this before they, you guys found JonBenet?

B (66:32)

Yeah, I said, maybe that window is broken by me, I don't know. But it shouldn't have been open, and that suitcase shouldn't have been there. And, and of course, the police came out and, well, nobody, A human couldn't get through that window. Well, I did it. Lou Smith did it.

A (66:50)

I saw Lou Smith.

B (66:50)

It's crazy, just. They were so focused on convicting Patsy or me that nothing else mattered. And then in January, they had sent some evidence in for DNA sampling, and the report came back, middle of January. We've recovered unidentified male DNA from Jominna's clothing does not match anyone in the family. John, Patsy and Burke are excluded.

A (67:20)

Yeah, the first one I think that they found, it was, it was from a blood spot in the underwear, and it was, it was the. Her, it was her blood, but it was what they determined, at least based on enzymes like saliva within the blood spot. Those are the first things that they tested and ruled the family out.

B (67:39)

Right. Well, the police kept that a secret to the DA for six months because it conflicted with their conclusion. It's like, holy crap, what do we got to do about this? Because it's the first question the defense attorney would ask is, whose DNA is that? Oh, we don't know, but it doesn't matter. Well, it does matter. Male DNA found in a sexual assault case is a huge clue. And to discount it is absurd.

A (68:06)

And they do eventually go back and get another sample that they put into CODIS from it. They get a large enough profile to put in codis.

B (68:14)

Right, right. They actually had the first sample. Was CODIS qualified as well? A new DA came in and set up her own investigative unit on this case. Took the case away from the police. Now they didn't position it that way in the media, was like, oh, we want fresh eyes. No, they. I believe she took it away from the police, brought Lou Smith back in, who had left because he was disgusted with the direction it was going. And they started to investigate it again, and she did additional DNA testing.

A (68:47)

This is like in 2008.

B (68:49)

Yeah. And that supported the earlier DNA sampling, that it was unidentified male in DNA and had no explanation. Police tried very hard to explain it away. They even tried to get the county to pay for them to go to China.

A (69:04)

I followed that one.

B (69:05)

They wanted to go to China.

A (69:07)

Right.

B (69:07)

And start sampling.

A (69:08)

But then they, they. When they really honed in on. Oh, no, this isn't just like everywhere on the underwear. It's just in the blood spots. And we're. We're showing these enzymes that show up in high levels with saliva.

B (69:17)

Yeah, well. And I don't know, I. I did learn a little bit about DNA, and it's complicated.

A (69:24)

It's very complicated.

B (69:25)

Really complicated.

A (69:26)

2008, they do touch DNA on the side of her long John pants, basically saying, like, we think that whoever would have pulled her pants down might have done it. Here they get two profiles, one from each side. They're not nearly as big as the one that went into codis, but they say they're consistent with that one.

B (69:43)

Right.

A (69:44)

And I heard the same thing where they're saying, like, in no other case have I seen. Where you see this much DNA of someone else and we're not looking for someone else.

B (69:52)

Right.

A (69:52)

When they ended up testing the nylon rope that was around her neck.

B (69:57)

I don't know if they ever did.

A (69:59)

I don't know that they tested the rope. Okay, but not the wooden handle itself. And the rope came back with an unknown sample. I didn't know that, but it didn't match the other ones, and I don't know what that means. Like, has anyone ever.

B (70:13)

Well, Lou Smith. And he. Lou told me, first of all, Lou said, I'll get this guy John. I'll get him. And he has a track record of getting him, of getting them. And sadly, he died of cancer. He believed there more than one person involved. But he also said, look, there's things I know that only the killer knows, and I'm not going to tell you what those are. I'm not telling anybody.

A (70:38)

But did it die with him?

B (70:41)

It may have. I'm not sure. Lou had an extensive database of information that now some of his former homicide detective colleagues have formed a group to finish Lou's work. Lou said, this is A DNA case. It'll be solved by DNA.

A (71:03)

Have you ever asked to see all of his materials? I mean, at one time you were paying him.

B (71:08)

Well, it's huge. Pardon?

A (71:09)

I mean, one time you were paying Lou, right?

B (71:11)

No, Lou. I tried to buy Lou an ice cream cone one day. He wouldn't let me do it. He was that honorable? No, I didn't pay him.

A (71:22)

So you never asked to see his stuff? Like I. Well, I couldn't help it. I would want.

B (71:26)

Well, it was voluminous.

A (71:27)

Yeah.

B (71:28)

And the group that took over and they're doing it on their own. They've taken Lou's list and they starting to go down the list and get DNA. And that costs money. And so they've raised money over time to pay for the DNA testing. But they're not any of their expenses or anything. It's all on their own. And I'm so grateful for that. You know, Lou felt that he had a good enough sample early on. That that is the killer's DNA. You need nine markers out of 15 to be submittable to the database. The federal database. You probably know a lot more about this than I do, but I'm learning. They determined with these 15 particular markers. It's like 100% match. 15 out of billions. And we had nine of 15 and nine. Was this the threshold at which they would admit it to the COVID databases? Good enough.

A (72:31)

I wonder if it's still in there, because I know back in the 90s the database was less, it was lower at 9. And then over the years I believe they've raised it to be like 13.

B (72:43)

Is that right?

A (72:44)

And I've seen other cases where it. Because it no longer meets the new standard, it drops out. And people didn't even realize that it's not.

B (72:51)

That's.

A (72:52)

I don't know be interesting. It's something I'll need to look into.

B (72:55)

Yeah, I don't know. I didn't know that they raised the threshold.

A (72:59)

But do you know, did they ever test the JonBenet's bathroom? Someone had gone to the bathroom and not flushed. Did they ever test that? Do you know?

B (73:06)

I don't know.

A (73:07)

Seems like a like perfect sample for DNA. And I don't know if they tested and it was hers or.

B (73:13)

Well, you know, the forensics people only spent two hours in our house after Jebedia was found looking for evidence. The D. A said get your you know what, back in there. Two hours is not enough. So they went back. I don't know how long they spent. When they went back they did fine. You know, they recovered the evidence, some evidence and a palm print that didn't match anybody on the door going into that room where JonBenet was found.

A (73:41)

Didn't match anyone. I thought it was. I thought they saw Patsy's and, and JonBenet. But Patsy was, I know, wrapping presents in that room and stuff like that.

B (73:48)

Well, we'd go in and out of that room. It was storage room. We called it the wine cellar, but there wasn't.

A (73:52)

With no wine?

B (73:53)

No wine. It was just an old coal cellar.

A (73:55)

I don't think I realized that there were was an unidentified print.

B (73:59)

As far as I know that's still unidentified as there was in the same case nine months later. Unidentified palm print. Did they check them? No.

A (74:09)

You're talking about in the, in the other case in the same neighborhood.

B (74:12)

Very similar to John, I think in.

A (74:14)

The reporting they call her Amy.

B (74:16)

Yeah, they blew that office similar because as the police chief said, there's so many quotes I could give you that they said were just nuts. First of all, we didn't treat JonBenet's abduction as a crime scene. We thought it was a kidnapping.

A (74:30)

That's a crime.

B (74:31)

It's a crime. I'm sorry.

A (74:32)

Yeah.

B (74:33)

On the little girl, the police chief came out and said, well, they're not the same because the second little girl wasn't killed because her mom walked in and mom interrupted. It's just nuts we're dealing with. And that's a real fundamental problem with our system. That little Boulder, Colorado Police Department's island of authority. People can't come on that island and help unless they're invited. And Boulder police never invited anybody to come in and help. Lots of was offered, but that's the fundamental problem with our system.

A (75:04)

Would that be your hope with JonBenet's case? Like who?

B (75:07)

Sure.

A (75:07)

In a perfect world, who would you want to take over?

B (75:09)

Well, you know, early on we didn't care who had it. We just wanted it out of the police hands because we knew they were a focused on us and being competent. Give it to the sheriff's department, give it to. We didn't care. Just get it out of their hands because they're not capable. We would like the evidence to be turned over to the FBI and let the FBI run with the evidence, do some additional DNA testing.

A (75:34)

So where do you think the evidence is? Do they still have it? What do you, what do you think is still can be tested? What can we pull this?

B (75:41)

Well, we were told we, we know from looking at reports and stuff early on in January 97, there were a number of items sent into a lab. Some were returned untested. Don't know why, whether it's a cost issue or they had a sample. They did get a sample of what they tested. Maybe they decided that's good enough. I don't know. We want those other items tested. We want the items that had previously been tested 15 years ago, most recently retested. Developing this new format that's needed to do the genealogy research. That's what we're asking. So we. As far as we know, there's items that are crime sheet of evidence that was taken from the crime scene, sent to a lab and was never tested.

A (76:31)

It seems pretty straightforward. Like, what do you. What do you feel is. Because to me on the outside, I'm like, why wouldn't Boulder want to solve its biggest case?

B (76:39)

Only there's only two logical reasons why. One is they've lost the evidence, which I hope isn't true. Or two, they're protecting somebody that is very. That's a silly number. Two, but I can't think of any other reason they've lost the evidence.

A (77:01)

Do you feel like, I mean, you're somebody who has, like, amazing connections and you have and, you know, political pull. Like, do you feel like there's anything that you can do or you, like you've tried it all? Like, where.

B (77:15)

We've tried a lot. We petitioned the attorney general in Colorado. We petitioned the governor. This is early on to meet with us and they wouldn't meet with us.

A (77:24)

You think this would be a great case for someone to. I mean, if they're going to at least work the system. You solve the JonBenet Ramsey case?

B (77:31)

Well, you'd think so. And I've told Bowlers had five police chiefs since this happened.

A (77:36)

Have you met with the newest one yet?

B (77:38)

Yeah.

A (77:39)

Does he say anything about whether they have the evidence? Don't have the evidence. Are you waiting?

B (77:43)

I've never challenged him on. Did you. Have you lost it? Ah.

A (77:46)

What do you mean, John?

B (77:47)

Well, I've got another meeting coming up. Yeah, well, the first meeting was trying to be a nice guy and not jump all over him. He was a new guy at his job. I liked him. We had a nice conversation and it was like, I need to.

A (78:01)

What is he. What does he say? Where does he say it stands?

B (78:02)

Well, he says there's things happening I can't tell you about. And I think DNA testing isn't there yet. We want to wait. And I totally disagree with the last comment. We're going to Ask the hard question, have you? And you didn't lose it. You're the new guy. It's not your fault. But is the evidence still in your possession? Where is it?

A (78:26)

And if it's not there, what. What does that make you think?

B (78:30)

Well, confirms my opinion that the Boulder police was a pretty dysfunctional organization for years, frankly.

A (78:42)

I mean, it's just over for you guys.

B (78:44)

Like, well, that's a huge thing. Yeah. To have law, if that's the case, because we have the technology, in my opinion, privately, to do testing that I think I really believe has a good chance of leading to the answer.

A (79:02)

Do you think it's someone, whether you recognize them or not, someone that would have had some kind of interaction with your daughter?

B (79:09)

Well, I think. I think the person had been in our house before. No question. We have this car guy, Mark Carr. We've had two people that said, well, I saw that guy around you. I know it's him. Our house. We had a lady that would come into our little house up in Michigan and clean it once in a while before we got there. And she called after he became public and said, that guy was in your garage this past summer.

A (79:48)

How do you make sense of that if the DNA.

B (79:50)

Well, don't know. I don't know.

A (79:54)

Does that make you go back and question the DNA?

B (79:56)

Well, I asked Lou that question. I said, do you believe that this is the killer's DNA for sure? He said, yes, I believe that. Okay, so, okay, based on that. Well, the other thing she said was, I. When I was in your home that day, somebody had been staying in John Bonnie's room. There was a suitcase open, and obviously somebody was saying, I thought you'd given someone permission to stay in your home. I didn't think any of it. When this guy came out, she said, I saw him in your garage. And then she told us about somebody staying in her home. I said, no, we didn't get rent permission to stay in our home. And why would they have picked John Mane's room? If you're gonna. If you're gonna squat in a house, you wouldn't have picked that room. It's second floor, way in the back. You couldn't get out of there easily if you were caught.

A (80:50)

I think new testing is gonna be important. I don't know if you have thoughts or feelings on. Have you seen all the stuff that's been happening with, like, the Colorado State lab?

B (80:58)

Yeah.

A (80:59)

Do you have any concerns? So Missy Woods, I believe is her name, she's been accused of, like, falsifying I mean like 600 and some cases between like 2008 and 23, they're looking at even older cases. Are you, is this something that you've talked to anyone in authority about? Like, do you have concern that it affects the testing that you guys had done?

B (81:22)

We were told our attorneys looked into it and they still, they're still working on the case for us at, for free. They don't charge us. They're so committed to getting this righted. They said she did not, she was not involved in our testing.

A (81:35)

That's good.

B (81:36)

Back then it's like, okay, so that's the information we have.

A (81:42)

It's really good. What's it going to take to do new testing?

B (81:47)

Well, what we want, we were told probably a year or so ago now it's been over a year. At that time we met with, just accidentally met the head of the FBI region there and he said, look, the government, we the FBI, certainly not Boulder, not cbi, do not have the latest DNA technology yet.

A (82:11)

And who said that?

B (82:12)

The chief of police.

A (82:13)

Because they got a new one, right? Or is this the current one?

B (82:16)

Yeah. Get the evidence into their hands and let's see what they come up with. They have also the ability to do the genealogy research, create this family tree.

A (82:27)

Even to give you, I mean, the phenotyping that they can do. To answer the question of, okay, we know it's a male profile, but is it a white man?

B (82:34)

Right.

A (82:35)

Is it not?

B (82:37)

I don't know what else to do. But if they don't do that, then that's unacceptable. It's ridiculous. It's there can be done. We've had, I've offered to pay for it. I don't know what the issue is. I really don't. The way they won't do all that can be done.

A (82:54)

I'll have to ask some questions of them.

B (82:56)

Yeah, that'd be. We're gonna get a little more hard nosed in our next meeting. First question be, do you have the evidence? Be honest, have you lost it? Where is it? Who has it?

A (83:11)

Sounds like a good next step.

B (83:13)

Yeah. Right now in my mind that's the key question. Why, where is it if you're not going to test it? Why? It's baffling. Absolutely baffling to me. And you know, maybe it's down to police departments don't like to admit they've been wrong or they screwed up. And I can't believe that with a new police chief, I mean, he didn't cause that problem. He didn't mess it up.

A (83:39)

Do you think they're afraid of opening themselves up to litigation?

B (83:43)

Possibly. Very possibly.

A (83:47)

Do you think you would sue them or are you.

B (83:49)

No, I. I looked. I explored that early on because we were again told. They knew it was. They knew it was one of the parents. Had to be one of the parents, always the parents. And that's a flawed conclusion.

A (83:59)

But there's no one theory that makes everything make sense.

B (84:02)

No, not really. I don't know. Lou said this is a DNA case. It'll be solved by DNA, period. And that's why this testing's so important. I don't know. You know, we used. I mean, I used to. Patsy, when we'd travel, carried, took, always packed a blue dress, dark blue dress that she was going to wear at the press conference when Chau Monet's killer was found, we were hopeful, confident that that would happen. And she eventually quit packing the blue dress. Somebody asked me the day do you think JonBenet's killer would be found in your lifetime? I'm not so confident now at all. I think eventually they will be caught or identified, but maybe not in my lifetime. Given the fact there's no movement in the government to do the right thing if they do it, I think there's a, I don't know, pretty good possibility that we could find the killer. Really? Not a killer. Maybe dead, maybe, who knows? But this forensic genealogy research is amazing. And eventually that won't be available because the privacy advocates will fuss. They're already fussing. But so far, so good, you know, but so that can't. You can't wait on that forever because eventually you won't have. The police will not have access to that. I mean, my DNA is in the public database. I paid my $25 to see who my relatives were. So it's my.

A (85:53)

But did you submit it to GEDMatch? That's a different thing.

B (85:56)

No, I don't know what that. What's that?

A (85:58)

So this is my, this is my advocacy. I always tell people so, like certain, like ancestry in 23 and me, they're no longer available to law enforcement. So people actually.

B (86:07)

Oh, I didn't know that.

A (86:08)

I know most people don't. And so you actually have to download your results and submit it to GEDmatch. GEDmatch is the one that law enforcement can access. So there actually is this big issue where people think they've done it and they actually haven't, which could build up the database in a really meaningful way. So anyone listening to that, I thought.

B (86:28)

Those were still Available. Yeah. That's a big problem.

A (86:31)

Yeah.

B (86:32)

What's it called?

A (86:32)

Jet GEDmatch. G E V Gedmatch.

B (86:35)

Okay.

A (86:37)

Do you feel like you'll always have the indictment kind of hanging over you until there's someone else who's indicted?

B (86:46)

Sure, yeah. I mean it's always going to be, it's an unknown.

A (86:51)

Can they, is there any like, does that mean anything now? Like could somebody say, oh we, we have this indictment from 30 years ago, we can still go charge John, or would they have to get a new grand jury indictment? Like is it, I don't know how scary of a looming thing that is.

B (87:05)

Yeah. I don't know. The grand jury, as I'm told, you can convict a ham sandwich in a grand jury. It's a one sided argument. Right. It's, it's easy to get an indictment.

A (87:15)

It is. It's just the prosecution's case. But you, you guys weren't asked to even speak at that.

B (87:20)

I offered to do that.

A (87:21)

Yeah.

B (87:22)

And they, they didn't ask me or subpoena me. My children were interviewed by the, by the grand jury. Burke was interviewed. Melinda, my daughter, who was pregnant at the time, was brought into Colorado to be interviewed by the grand jury. So their attorneys were present with them.

A (87:39)

It's straight. It's so strange. They would interview everyone but you.

B (87:42)

I know. And I offered, I said let me know. And I think they were afraid that.

A (87:50)

I think people think it's calculated. Like I think that's the thing that nobody's like saying or people even you know, in the depths of the Internet are saying is like it feels like there's someone pulling the strings.

B (88:00)

We had no rights. Police. The only right, the only requirement they had was to talk to us once a year on our case. That by law they had to do that. First time we asked for that meeting, they said, well, Jesus, we don't know how to do this exactly. You're a suspect and you're a victim. This Homicide Victims Family Rights act gives families like us the right to under law to get the case out of the police hands if they're not doing their job or they haven't done their job.

A (88:36)

What I read is that if after three years it's still a cold case, you can submit to have a federal review.

B (88:42)

Yeah, well I'd thought about that a bit of like this law, this federal law, could that, that could be JonBenet's law. If it advanced the cause, it'd be good. But I'm not looking for that kind of memorialization. Of her. But you want to be sure your home is safe. As safe as it can be for your family. We were foolish, naive. We thought we lived in a safe community. We didn't check the door locks. We didn't set the alarm. Who in the world would come into the house when we're there, if they came in or were gone? Steal the silverware. Okay, whatever. Never, ever thought someone would come into our home when we were there and take her child from her bed. But it happens. And your home's got to be a sanctuary. A safe sanctuary. Safe as you can make it.

A (89:36)

Are you doing anything to get this Victims Families Rights act pushed through to Colorado?

B (89:40)

Well, I just found out about it, okay. And I. I've. Yeah, I've got to do that. If that's the one thing, if anything could. I've always said, what can we do to change the system? Screwed up big time.

A (89:55)

Yeah.

B (89:56)

Someone. I don't know how to fix it. These 18,000 little independent jurisdictions of authority with no higher authority, no ability to bring in the big guns when a child's murdered is stupid. Makes no sense. But what can I do to. To affect it? And I. Early on, I was advocating DNA testing for anyone arrested for felony. It's always come back to, how do you. How do you make these little islands of authority like Boulder able or willing to accept the power of our country to solve cases like ours? The murder of a child. And so I, Then I was. I got to thinking, well, let's make the murder of a child a federal offense, just like a bank robbery. That seemed very logical.

A (90:49)

Did you make any headway with it?

B (90:51)

Well, I met with the Department of Justice and they said, well, that's going to be a tough sell because we don't have. The federal government doesn't have that. Lexus, I think he called it, to have even that authority to try to do that, to overstep state law. He said, that's going to be a tough.

A (91:12)

So now this is your new mission.

B (91:14)

So my new mission, I learned about this just recently and I'm retired now, so I got the time to do it is I met again a Department of justice federal Department of justice fellow that pushed the federal government to enact a Homicide Victims Family Rights Act.

A (91:35)

Are you going to focus that? Because I know Biden signed it into law in 2021 federally, but to your point, not in a state.

B (91:41)

Y.

A (91:41)

Are you going to focus on Colorado or J.

B (91:44)

Well, what it gets down to. And. And the DOJ fellow said, look, it's easy. It's boilerplate. Here's the law, Mr. Senator, state senator. Put your name at the top, vote on it, you're done. That's all you got to do. It's real simple. Colorado would be a tough sell, I think, because politicians don't want to be involved in our case. It's like a tar baby. If I touch it, I'm tainted. The media will come. The media has been brutal.

A (92:19)

Would you advocate for it in another state?

B (92:21)

Sure. Yeah. And I say, I literally just found out about this recently and I've gotta do it. But I think that's a purpose. I could get behind, advocate and get behind and maybe make it, maybe, maybe make a difference. But it's going to take like. I don't know any politicians in Colorado. They probably know me, but I don't know them. But. And maybe that's a good place to start.

A (92:50)

What do you think jonbene's legacy is?

B (92:57)

She was kind of the spark plug in her family. I mean, and you know, my minister told me early on, he said, look, memories for a while are going to bring pain, but eventually they'll bring joy. And to a large extent, I found that, that you've been able to get past the pain, period. And memories make you smile. And I still get tugged, my heart gets tugged when I see a little girl hanging under her dad's hands, walking down the street, you know, that hurts. But I remember the neat things about Jon Monet, the fun things. You know, I believe that she's in heaven. I don't understand heaven. I don't have a. My brain isn't capable of comprehending what that is. But, you know, I. I did get one reassurance that life wasn't over for her in that respect. She had won this little medal in one of her little contests, beauty contests. And I used to tell her, look, it doesn't matter if you're the prettiest or whatever your little talent makes is what you should concentrate on. And she was a singer and always with vigor, but sometimes all key it wasn't. But she was, you know, boom. And she had. Her last little event was a couple weeks before she died. And I was late to get there, but I always tried to go to watch her little talent thing. And she came running up to me and said, dad, Dad, I won this for you. And it was a medal and it was all talent winter. And she gave me that little medal and I wore it around my neck. And when she died, in my mind, I wanted to get that medal back. He's in our house. But I didn't tell anybody. I just in my mind that's the one thing I wanted. John Manes that I can keep physically. And Pam, Patsy's sister went to our house a week later and get us some clothes because we. We just left. We didn't have any clothes to wear or anything. And she said I went to the house please are kind of rude but I. I felt drawn to go into John Betty's room and I felt like I should bring you this. And she opened her hand, it was a medal. And her room was full of stuff. You know how she would bring this little round about the size of a silver dollar, metal and feel like I felt like I should bring this to you. And I just. I could have cried because it was like John, man, I knew I wanted that somehow. So there's more to life than we see here.

A (96:08)

Well, thank you, John.

B (96:09)

Well, you're welcome, Ashley.

A (96:10)

I'll make sure you're in here. The stuff that we talked about again, the, the legislation that you're doing, the petition to get the DNA sign. I'm sure everyone has the information for that. And I think everyone is going to have an eye on Boulder.

B (96:23)

Well, that's the objective.

A (96:25)

Yeah.

B (96:25)

This boys just isn't going to go away. We're going to be your worst nightmare until you do your job.

A (96:32)

All eyes on Boulder.

B (96:33)

Yep. Sa.

A (97:15)

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