Britt Prawat (3:28)

Oh my goodness. There's this like, family who lives a couple blocks away from us that have like two little sausage dogs, a bloodhound, and also their cats, like, follow them on their walks. And it's like an everyday thing. We see them like march past our house, this little parade.

Ashley Flowers (3:44)

I have this full adult man in my neighborhood who, like, I can set my watch to the time he, like, zooms by on his scooter. I swear he, like, gets home from work and he's like, scooter time. But you get the point. So the same is true for the Brica family in Cincinnati, Ohio. None of the neighbors are particularly close to Jerry, Linda, or their four year old daughter Debbie. I mean, aside from maybe some babysitting every now and then, some friendly conversation in the driveway, no one on quiet suburban Greenway Avenue would call themselves friends with this family. Still, the neighbors have been noticing that their routines have been off lately. For instance, come Tuesday, September 27, 1966, trash day was Monday. Their cans were out like clockwork Sunday evening. But Monday came and went and then no one brought the cans in. And now the cans are still out there on the curb all day on Tuesday.

Britt Prawat (4:38)

And this is not the routine, I imagine.

Ashley Flowers (4:40)

Not the routine. And it's not even just the trash cans, though. 23 year old Linda hasn't been seen working in their front yard like normal. Debbie's not playing outside. Their two dogs aren't barking like they always do. Like, the dogs for me is like the one that everyone.

Britt Prawat (4:53)

Red flag.

Ashley Flowers (4:54)

I know the dogs that bark in the neighborhood.

Britt Prawat (4:56)

Exactly.

Ashley Flowers (4:57)

And possibly most telling, several of their lights have been left on since Sunday night. And they're not changing. It's like the same stinking lights. And I'm sure some of this could have probably just been written off, like, oh, they went out of town for the weekend or whatever. Except that doesn't work because Jerry's Car is still sitting right there in the driveway. So by Tuesday, the neighbors start talking, like, have you seen them? It's so weird, isn't it? Like, do you think they're okay? And they probably waited out just a little. But by 10pm that night, those who are concerned have had enough waiting. And specifically, it's one of the women on the street who really notices and takes action.

Britt Prawat (5:38)

Of course it is. Our antennas are always up.

Ashley Flowers (5:42)

We make the best detectives, first of all. But also, this is like mid-60s we're talking. So we're in like gender roles central here. Men are going to work, she's at home. All the women on the street are probably home most of the day. They're staying home with the kids or doing the housework or what.

Britt Prawat (5:57)

They're there to notice these things.

Ashley Flowers (5:59)

They are the ones who are noticing how unusual things at the Brica house have been. So one of these women is like, hey, hubby, like, gonna need your help for a sec. Can you go over for me and see what's up? According to J.T. townsend's book, Summer's Almost Gone, which was the primary source material for this episode, this husband, he walks up to the Brica's front door, rings the doorbell. Nothing. Not even barks from the dogs, who can always be heard loudly announcing visitors. So he walks over to the garage, he pulls up the garage door, and he sees Linda's car sitting there inside, which is like even a worse sign because now he knows, right? We've got Jerry's car, we've got Linda's car.

Britt Prawat (6:38)

Those cars are there.

Ashley Flowers (6:38)

Yes. So this man goes and grabs a neighborhood buddy who basically says, like, hey, let's try and track them down before we go calling police or jumping to any conclusions. Maybe this is just a misunderstanding. They call Jerry's workplace, where he's a project engineer with a large like, chemical company. And although it is late into the evening, there is someone still there who can confirm that not only is Jerry not there right now, Jerry hasn't been to work Monday or Tuesday, though he was supposed to be not good. A call is also placed to an 18 year old who regularly babysits for the family. She hasn't seen them either, but she senses how worrisome this is. So she and her father head to the Brica home to see what they can do to help. So all four, the two neighbors, the babysitter, her dad, they meet in front of the house, and then three of them decide to walk around to the back just in case they spot anything. So out in the backyard, the babysitter finds more cause for concern. Her heart beats a little faster as she makes her way to the back window, but it completely stops when she peers inside the family room. Because, I mean, this is such an eerie sight. The dogs are sitting there holding almost perfectly still. Now they're alive. They're just like there. And in that book, J.T. townsend uses the word comatose. Weird, isn't it? And it's that sight that squashes any lingering hope that this is all just a misunderstanding. These are not super friendly dogs. So the fact that they haven't been reacting at all to the knocking and the doorbell ringing is like, honestly, straight up terrified. Whatever is inside this home, whatever happened to the family, they're sure in that moment that it's bad. So they walk back around to the front of the house. They decide they have to get inside, so they crack the unlocked door open. But they don't even make it past the front threshold because instantly all three of them are like smacked in the face with this overwhelming smell of decay. One of the neighbors has a flashlight with them and he shines the light inside. And up a short staircase. He catches sight of what looks like a foot. So they immediately close the door. They go call police. And when two patrol officers respond, that's when they finally learn what's inside the house. Now it is this like tri level type house. So you've got a short staircase that heads up to the top floor and then another short staircase that leads to the lower family room. And they decide to go upstairs first. They go straight to the primary bedroom and there they find a man and a woman, presumably 23 year old Linda and 28 year old Jerry. They're lying on the floor between the bed and the wall. And Jerry is face down in what looks like his work clothes. He has a gray slacks on, a long sleeve shirt, dark socks. And then he's got this separate sock or maybe even a pair of socks, depending on what you read, that is stuffed in his mouth. And there's like white tapes stuck to his jaw on his left cheek. But most glaringly, he has several obvious stab wounds in his back. And Linda is laying partially on top of him. Now. She is face up, wearing a negligee and a robe. She's barefoot. Her top is pulled down, exposing her chest. A towel is covering the right side of her chest, but it can't hide the numerous stab wounds to the left side. She's got him on her chest, on her neck, even her head. And they can tell that blood is pooled on the floor beneath both of them, and there are actually two distinct pools of blood on the bed as well.

Britt Prawat (10:13)

Are they bound in any way?

Ashley Flowers (10:15)

So they're not at the time that they're found, but they had been. They can tell because they both have, like, ligature marks.

Britt Prawat (10:21)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (10:22)

So remember, these are, like, two patrol officers that are finding them out of their league, well above their pay grade. So they've got to call in back up, though, before they do, they peek in the smaller bedroom, which is right next door to the primary. And there, laying on her stomach with her arms stretched out above her, is.

Britt Prawat (10:40)

The little girl, Debbie.

Ashley Flowers (10:42)

Now, she's wearing her PJs and a robe. She's got a single red sock on. Her other sock is in the bed, and from her positioning, it looks like she had been dragged to where she was. And like her dad, she had been stabbed in the back. So it's not long before Greenway Avenue is lit up with emergency lights as police cars gather around this small home. Right from the start, it is pretty chaotic. The Bricas house is in Green Township, which is just a few blocks northwest of where Cincinnati PD's jurisdiction ends. So you have Green Township cops. But then a few Cincinnati investigators show up as well, creating this weird tension, because even though it should technically be a Green Township case, Cincinnati is much more equipped to handle an investigation like this. Like, they have more access to resources. They've probably done something at least closer to this before. But on top of this, both jurisdictions are part of Hamilton county, and so some of those guys show up, too. And just adding to the chaos are first responders from the fire department who are, like, traipsing around the scene, and they're not following any proper protocols. According to Townsend's book, like, one detective even sees a firefighter who, like, picks up a briefcase without gloves, only to realize like, oh, crap, like, I shouldn't be just, like, picking things up. So he puts it down and why.

Britt Prawat (11:54)

Are they even there?

Ashley Flowers (11:55)

I honestly have no idea. I don't know if it was like, a.

Britt Prawat (11:58)

Emergency services, I'll call or something.

Ashley Flowers (11:59)

Sometimes when I. When I, like, EMT calls, they'll. I have no idea. But there's, like, there is no fire. I honestly feel like everyone just showed up to this. I think this is just, like, such a wild scenario that everyone from any department ever experienced.

Britt Prawat (12:13)

It was like, all hands on deck.

Ashley Flowers (12:14)

Yeah. Now it takes nearly two hours, but eventually the investigation is given to Hamilton county, and everyone else is basically told to, like, get the out of here. Like we need space, right? So from here, a bunch of things happen kind of all at once. Fans and lights are brought in, blowing the smell out, kind of illuminating the whole home against the pitch black night. The dogs are removed, seemingly unhurt, and the neighbors who went up to the door initially are brought back inside to ID the bodies to confirm that they are in fact Jerry, Linda, and Debbie. And right away, there are a few things that stick out to investigators. First, a bunch of the drawers in the house are open. Dresser drawers are pulled out. So are the ones in the living room. Jerry's billfold is lying on his nightstand, empty. So at first, this kind of feels like a robbery gone, like very, very wrong. But something bothers them about that. Actually, a lot bothers them about this scene. And they know in that moment that nothing about this case is going to be straightforward or easy.

Britt Prawat (13:19)

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Ashley Flowers (14:26)

I'm Cyndi Lauper with fellow Cosentyx advocate chef Michelle Bernstein. We'll share our experiences with plaque psoriasis with psoriatic arthritis, and Dr. Panico will talk about the possible connection.

Cyndi Lauper (14:39)

Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. 300 milligram dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis. 150 milligrams dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tb, serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal have occurred. It may lower your ability to fight infections. So tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough. Had a vaccine or plan to, or if IBD symptoms develop or worsen. Learn more at 1844cosentyx or cosentyx.com Cindy.

Ashley Flowers (15:14)

Other than the contents of Jerry's billfold, nothing major appears to be missing. I mean, Jerry's even still wearing his wedding band.

Britt Prawat (15:23)

So if they weren't looking for valuables, what were they looking for?

Ashley Flowers (15:27)

Precisely. Also, with how violent the deaths were, you would expect there to be some signs of a frantic attack, like a struggle, lamps knocked over, blood on the walls. But there's nothing like that. Everything is, like, perfectly in its place. And here's what everyone thinks is so odd. So there's no report of any blood outside of the bedrooms. And there's no back spatter on the.

Britt Prawat (15:50)

Walls, which you would usually see with, like, multiple cells.

Ashley Flowers (15:54)

Stab wounds. Right.

Britt Prawat (15:55)

So for anybody who's, like, not aware, back spatter happens when you pull out blood comes with it.

Ashley Flowers (16:02)

Right.

Britt Prawat (16:02)

And that would then, like, go essentially behind whoever's stabbing. Back spatter.

Ashley Flowers (16:07)

Yeah. I mean, you would see that, but apparently there's none of that in the room, which doesn't make sense.

Britt Prawat (16:12)

I mean, if they were, like, tied up with that, like, if there wasn't a, like, struggle, would there still be spatter?

Ashley Flowers (16:20)

I mean, I'm pretty sure. And it is so weird because to your point, like, there isn't a struggle. Like, it's almost when I. When I, like, from what I know about the scene, it's almost like they were asleep. But if they were asleep, in my mind, like, you wouldn't have need to bind them, like, with. With ligatures, the way that they were like. And if they're not asleep, that they would have been fighting or moving, you would think. And honestly, I, like, forget them being asleep. Because if you remember the women or the girls, the Debbie and her mom, Linda, they had their robes on. So I don't think they would have been, like, they were getting ready for bed. Right.

Britt Prawat (16:51)

Maybe not in bed.

Ashley Flowers (16:52)

Jerry's still in his work clothes. And what I didn't tell you, the TV in the family room Was still on when everyone came in. Like, it almost is like they were watching TV when whatever happened, happened.

Britt Prawat (17:02)

So regardless if they were tied up and awake, which I think we can say, like, yes, and yes, there should definitely be the backspatter that is missing.

Ashley Flowers (17:12)

Yes. Unless someone for, like, straight up hours meticulously came in and cleaned. So.

Britt Prawat (17:20)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (17:21)

Yeah. Which how. Now, based on the size and shape of the stab wounds, investigators know that they are looking for a knife. But a thorough search of the house doesn't turn up any kind of bloodied blade anywhere. According to an article in the Cincinnati Post, one knife is missing from a set in their home. So they kind of begin to think that that could be the murder weapon. And they think that it's possible the killer took that with him in a newspaper. Because apparently there were two newspapers outside of the house, but really there should have been three. Again, they're missing for, like, multiple days. And so, like, the paper delivery, there's one paper that should be there, they know was delivered. They actually checked with the newspaper, but it's not there. So what they're thinking is that this person took the newspaper, like, wrapped the knife in it, and then actually threw it in the garbage. Because you remember it's trash day. It was trash day. So they think that that's gone with the trash.

Britt Prawat (18:14)

Which I think it's pretty telling that they didn't bring a weapon with them. They used a weapon already inside the house. Cause that feels like they didn't come there to kill anybody.

Ashley Flowers (18:26)

Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends on if they knew the family or not. So, like, stick with me here. So investigators eventually find out that the knife that's missing is this. It's a six and a half inch blade, but the handle has this decorative carving. So it actually might be something that the family keeps out on display on their counter or dining room, whatever.

Britt Prawat (18:47)

Easy to access.

Ashley Flowers (18:48)

Yeah. They also, again, I don't know that for sure. They might keep it safely tucked away in a drawer. Especially since they have a four year old. Like, I mean, I have a two and a half year old. There's no way I'm like, Josie can get into anything.

Britt Prawat (18:58)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (18:59)

So what they're basically thinking is, but.

Britt Prawat (19:01)

All those drawers were open, so very fair.

Ashley Flowers (19:04)

I think you just threw a mention to, like, what I was thinking or what they were thinking, because they're basically like. They think if it was like, sitting out all the time, a stranger could have easily grabbed it. And to your point, they didn't come with their own, but they're thinking if it wasn't a drawer, you were saying, pulled open, then the more likely scenario is that someone familiar with the family knew that it was there and still could have, like, planned. Like, I know the weapon I'm looking for is going to be there, so I don't.

Britt Prawat (19:27)

I don't need to bring anything myself.

Ashley Flowers (19:29)

Right. So even though the murder weapon is missing, they do their best to collect what they can. Prints, the bloody towel that was thrown over Linda's body, and even some Marlboro brand cigarettes that they threw think are from the killer. And they also carefully remove a single strand of hair that is clutched in Linda's hand. Though don't get excited about the hair, because I literally know next to nothing about it. I don't know the color, I don't know the length. Like, I couldn't find.

Britt Prawat (19:54)

It was just there.

Ashley Flowers (19:55)

Anything yet? All I know is that it's not from any of the victims. So while it feels like a really important piece of evidence, I'm letting you know now that, like, it isn't explained in any of the stuff that I've read. I don't know.

Britt Prawat (20:05)

I shouldn't ask about it later because it's just this is it.

Ashley Flowers (20:08)

Don't even know if they still have it. But I do know that I, or at least I believe I know that it was sent off for testing along with everything else to the FBI, because back in the day, they're able to do far more testing than any kind of local agency. Like, crime labs in the 60s are a far cry from what we know them today. So while we wait many, many moons to get those results back, detectives do the boots on the ground work. They're canvassing the neighborhood. They're talking to the neighbors. They're getting in touch with Jerry's coworkers. And they quickly learn that this is a quiet, safe street. The kind where no one locks their doors, where neighbors are familiar with one another. And that familiarity also breeds a lot of rumors that residents gladly start to share with police. Rumors that Linda and Jerry's relationship wasn't all that stable and that Linda may have been having an affair. There are a few stories that corroborate this, some of which revolved around Linda's love of animals or her obsession, rather. For example, every time the circus came to town, she'd spend, like, hours with the animal trainers, like, working for them for free. And one time, she even brought home this random bear trainer to dinner.

Britt Prawat (21:23)

Okay?

Ashley Flowers (21:24)

Which was a complete surprise to Jerry, who worked really long, sometimes very unusual. Hours of his own. And this began to cause some tension, especially when she would come home super late in the evening, forcing the various babysitters. They had to stay hours upon hours over their scheduled time. So between the long hours and then having to get along with the bricas aggressive dogs, which is like a thing with the babysitters, they had to, like, make sure the dogs, like, wouldn't attack them before they came over. Between all of that, like, they didn't actually keep many sitters for very long. And actually, this issue of Linda coming home late seemed to come to a head the Wednesday before their deaths. So investigators learned that Linda had just started working part time at a local vet's office, and her shift was supposed to end at 9pm Debbie was being watched by a neighbor that night at the neighbor's house. And she's watching the clock is, like, slowly ticking from 9 to 9:30 to 10. And the neighbor starts to get a little frustrated. And finally, it wasn't Linda who showed up, but Jerry having gotten home from work sometime between 10 and 10:30, and he finds his house empty. So he went and got their daughter. Then Linda showed up a little bit after that and explained that she had to have a drink with the vet at the clinic after having they, like, tried to save this cat, but they couldn't. It got hit by a car. And so everyone's upset.

Britt Prawat (22:43)

What was Linda's job at the clinic? Like, was she actually, like, working with the animals? Like, was she a vet tech?

Ashley Flowers (22:48)

She was a receptionist. But, like, she explained that the cat was brought in late. The vet's assistant was, like, already gone for the day. So she, like, she jumped in to help and then she said, like, they couldn't save it and they were both really upset, or the vet was really upset, so they decided to have a drink before they went home.

Britt Prawat (23:03)

So is the rumor that she's having an affair with the vet then?

Ashley Flowers (23:06)

That's what detectives eventually end up hearing. And the coming home late story is just one of several that really give them a sense of the couple's relationship. I mean, if you wanna go deep in this, I mean, I definitely check out Townsend's book that I mentioned. But from what I've been able to gather about both of them, it seems like they just wanted very different things. Like, Linda was more of a free spirit. She wasn't your stereotypical 60s housewife. And she wanted the freedom to go do what she wanted when she wanted. But Jerry wanted more of that. Like, you know, white picket fence, Norman Rockwell kind of life and family. So this incompatibility was becoming an obvious issue to everyone that police speak with.

Britt Prawat (23:48)

Did anyone say anything specifically about Sunday? Were the family there? Like, what did they see?

Ashley Flowers (23:55)

So, okay, as far as the neighbors go, somebody saw Jerry take the trash cans out at around 9, but that's kind of it. Aside from like, a few thumps that are maybe heard, there's no screaming, there's no crashing. There's nothing to suggest a violent crime was taking place. And, I mean, these houses are only, like, 15ft apart, so you would have thought that maybe a neighbor would have heard something of this. Now, another tidbit that they find out that feels important is that neighbors say whenever company came over, the family would shut the two dogs in, like, the lower level family room.

Britt Prawat (24:33)

And that's where they were found, like, on Tuesday night, the sitter found them there.

Ashley Flowers (24:36)

Right. With the TV still on.

Britt Prawat (24:38)

And we don't know a lot about these dogs, but we know that they weren't the friendliest. And they probably wouldn't just let anybody come in the house in general, let alone kill their whole family.

Ashley Flowers (24:48)

Right. They don't even like most people. Therefore, more than likely, they're thinking it was either Jerry or Linda who put them in the room. Like, they don't think a stranger walked in the house and then got them to go in that room.

Britt Prawat (25:00)

Could have even done it.

Ashley Flowers (25:01)

Right.

Britt Prawat (25:01)

I mean, unless it was someone that the dogs knew.

Ashley Flowers (25:04)

Right. Or if someone somehow got to them before the dogs and they, like, forced them maybe to put the dogs away. Some people also speculate that the dogs might have been drugged, which could explain their lethargic behavior.

Britt Prawat (25:18)

Yeah, but they were also, like, trapped in this separate area of the house for 48 hours. No food, no water. Like, they. That also could make them lethargic. And also with the drugs wear off in that amount of time.

Ashley Flowers (25:31)

Well, that's the thing is, like, by the time they got there, like, they couldn't do any testing.

Britt Prawat (25:34)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (25:34)

And what I keep thinking is, like, okay, but, like, how do you get close enough to drug them?

Britt Prawat (25:39)

And they're that. Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (25:40)

Unless you know them or you ha. Or you have, like, someone in the family. Well, and there's, like, corralling them.

Britt Prawat (25:45)

We're talking about this now, how much of this was being talked about in those first couple of hours?

Ashley Flowers (25:51)

Well, interviews continue over the next few days, but the next day, the 28th, the coroner releases his initial findings. Now, this isn't a full report, but it's enough to give investigators something to work with. And the findings are definitely interesting. Hi, I'm Cyndi Lauper. My scalp was covered with psoriasis, which could lead to psoriatic arthritis, but Cosentyx treats both.

Cyndi Lauper (26:16)

Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300mg dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis 150mg dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Gosentyx before starting get checked for tb, serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections. Some fatal have occurred. Gosentyx may lower ability to fight infections, so tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or plan to, or if IBD symptoms develop or worsen. Learn more@cosentyx.com or 1844 Cosentyx Cosentyx works for me. Ask your doctor about Cosentyx.

Britt Prawat (26:53)

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Ashley Flowers (27:26)

The report confirms that Linda had had sex before she died. Not right before, but like 24 to 30 hours before. @ least according to the coroner's estimate. But he can't 100% confirm if it was consensual or not. He tends to lean toward it being a sexual assault. But detectives aren't putting all their eggs in that basket just yet.

Britt Prawat (27:49)

And he's saying it was a full day before she died?

Ashley Flowers (27:52)

Oh yeah, 24 to yeah, 30 hours.

Britt Prawat (27:54)

And when is he saying that she was killed?

Ashley Flowers (27:58)

So we don't know for sure, but like, based on the contents of their stomachs, they're saying that the family died. They're thinking sometime Sunday night. Okay, now to go back to the sexual assault kit that he did, he did find sperm which was collected and sent off for testing. Because even though we're like a far cry from DNA at This point we do have. You can, like, test sperm for, like, a blood type. Right. So that gets sent off. And then he confirms that ligatures were used. Sources vary, but according to reporting for the Cincinnati Inquirer, Jerry was tied up with a rope, and Linda was bound with tape. And they can tell that based on, like, she had remnants of adhesive on her skin. Now, they didn't find any rope at the scene, but there was a dog leash that was found laying on the couch, which investigators confirm is not where they normally kept their dog leashes or whatever.

Britt Prawat (28:48)

Not where most people keep a dog leash.

Ashley Flowers (28:50)

Right, right. So they're thinking that they may have been tied up with that, but, like, that means that at some point, like.

Britt Prawat (28:54)

After they're dead, like, someone took the leash and put it back on the couch.

Ashley Flowers (28:57)

Why? Yeah. And then finally, the coroner confirms that there also were no defensive wounds, but the damage to each of their bodies was extensive. Because in total, Jerry had four stab wounds in his back, three in his neck, two in his head. Linda had six wounds on her chest, two in her neck, and two on her head. And Debbie was stabbed four times in the back.

Britt Prawat (29:18)

And all this was with the same weapon?

Ashley Flowers (29:20)

It seems like it. They never mention a second one.

Britt Prawat (29:22)

And the theory is that just one person did all this. I mean, I find it hard to believe that, like, one person with just a knife could have tied up two adults and then killed them without anybody seeing or hearing anything while there was a kid in the house.

Ashley Flowers (29:37)

I agree. If it all happened at the same time, like, because I would think you would need two people to at least overpower and control them, at least the two adults, even if, like, only one of them had a knife. And this. This theory of multiple people is actually. It's brought up in Summer's Almost Gone in that book. But I kind of can't help but look at the timeline of their last day and wonder if it could have been one person. So let me give it to you. So here's the timeline. Based on records and conversations with neighbors and coworkers, they determined that Jerry arrived at work that morning at 7:30 on a Sunday. Dude, I told you, he works like he's a workhorse.

Britt Prawat (30:15)

Okay?

Ashley Flowers (30:16)

And he wasn't. It's not like he was scheduled to go in, like, he just always did. But anyways, he goes in at 7:30. Like, works for, like, a little bit, but then he goes to Mass at 9. He goes and gets gas at, like, 10:30, and then he gets back home at, like, 10:50 in the morning at 12:10, we know that Linda called Walgreens about a prescription. And then Jerry was back at work by 1225. And then he signs out finally at 4:25, he goes and picks up that prescription for Linda. And then he's home by 6:45 to take a call from a co worker about a flight that they were supposed to go on together the next. Now this is supposed to be. This flight was supposed to be this really quick work trip that you're just like there and back the same day. And this coworker was wondering if Jerry could pick him up, drive him to the airport that morning. Jerry agrees they're gonna meet at 6:30 in the morning the following day.

Britt Prawat (31:07)

Wasn't that a red flag to the co worker when Jerry didn't show up to pick him up?

Ashley Flowers (31:11)

I guess not really. I would have thought so too. But it turns out that their work schedules are really like, they change and fluctuate a lot. So the coworker just kind of assumed that he'd been pulled into something else and just couldn't go on this trip anymore. So knowing he doesn't show up the next day, I don't know how big this place is or whatever. Red flag to me, I don't know. But the last two sightings of the family on that Sunday night were later that night. Jerry goes to the store at 8:45 to pick up some groceries. And then at 9 he is spotted by his trash cans at the curb, seemingly just taking them out for like, pickup the following morning.

Britt Prawat (31:45)

And Linda's home all day.

Ashley Flowers (31:48)

That's the assumption at least, because it looks like nobody saw her out and about that day. Which means to me that there is roughly a 5 and a half hour ish block where she's home alone with Debbie. Or we're assuming that because no one saw her, but maybe she's not home now. I'm assuming that like, all of the family members were killed around the same time based on their stomach contents. But my question is, like, were they all tied up at the same time? Like, police are so convinced there had to be two killers. But like, what if there was just one? What if he got to Debbie and Linda before Jerry got home from work? What if? I'm gonna a lot of what ifs.

Britt Prawat (32:25)

I mean, yes, maybe. But if Jerry got home at like, what, 6:45ish? Why would the killer let him go out to get groceries, put the trash out, like he's coming in and out of the house? Yeah, like after already, like subdued.

Ashley Flowers (32:43)

I don't know. He also went to the grocery store. So maybe like it happened when he was at the grocery store. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe with the right weapon, you could have threatened them not to do anything. But then I go back to the weapon being in the house.

Britt Prawat (32:55)

Right. Like that's something that the killer couldn't predict to have.

Ashley Flowers (32:59)

I know, possibly.

Britt Prawat (32:59)

Unless they knew the family.

Ashley Flowers (33:01)

Right. And I feel like there's probably more to this timeline that's been lost to time. Like what little information is in the public feels kind of all over the place. Because there was even one article that I saw that says he doesn't get home till 8. So I mean, maybe there's a world where he like doesn't get home and he's pulling the trash cans out. Like for the very first. I don't know.

Britt Prawat (33:18)

Okay, say they do ty Linda up, wait for Jerry to get home. Why? Like, it's not a robbery. Right. You'd be in and out. If that was the case. Like, was Jerry the intended target then? Like, they were waiting for him because that wasn't there for him.

Ashley Flowers (33:33)

But then why would you kill Debbie and Linda?

Britt Prawat (33:36)

I mean, they weren't supposed to be there, but also, like, where else would they be?

Ashley Flowers (33:40)

Right, that's what I'm saying. Like they were supposed to be there. She's a.

Britt Prawat (33:43)

That's like the one place they're supposed to be.

Ashley Flowers (33:45)

Yeah, I don't.

Britt Prawat (33:46)

I mean, so maybe it was someone random who didn't know their schedule. Grasping at straws here. I don't know.

Ashley Flowers (33:50)

So that's actually the one thing investigators feel kind of certain about, that this wasn't random. Because they're thinking it all comes back to Debbie. There is no reason in their minds that you have to kill a 4 year old unless that 4 year old knows you. Because, like, they're like, she's so young.

Britt Prawat (34:06)

She wouldn't necessarily remember anybody.

Ashley Flowers (34:08)

Right. That even if she saw someone, could she give like a real description? Like, I remember hearing it's only if she knows your name.

Britt Prawat (34:14)

I remember hearing something about like, it's really tough to get descriptions from kids because everyone's big. Like, you can't get a height because.

Ashley Flowers (34:19)

You can't get an age. They're all old.

Britt Prawat (34:21)

Yeah, everyone's old. Everyone's big. So, yeah, to that point, yeah. She almost would have had to have known somebody to be a threat, had a name.

Ashley Flowers (34:28)

Yeah.

Britt Prawat (34:29)

And no one saw any like, unusual cars in the driveway? Like maybe they had company or anything?

Ashley Flowers (34:35)

Not in the driveway. I mean, there's a bunch of cars. Like, you know, anytime something like this happens, right? They're like. People say they saw unusual cars or cars they didn't recognize around and in, like, the days leading up to the murders, but that might not even mean anything. So in police's search for a suspect, they decide that the first person they need to talk to is that veterinarian that Linda was rumored to be having an affair with. Someone who was obviously known to Linda, but also known to Debbie, and that's Dr. Fred Leininger. They go and find Fred at his clinic, and he seems to be relatively upfront with them. He says that he and Linda met a few years prior when she brought some of her pets in for a visit after they had just moved to Cincinnati. And he confirms that he had just offered her a permanent part time position at the clinic just days before she was killed. But then, without being prompted, he says that he'd actually been to the Brica's house on Friday, by the way, oh, two days before their death. And he explains that Debbie, I guess, had left a book at the clinic the last time that she'd been there with her mom, and that he had just, like, popped in to return it. But he's like, again, he's like, no, no, no, I didn't go inside. Debbie was playing out in the front yard. So I just like, handed her the book and then I left without seeing either of her parents, by the way. Unprompted, weird. So maybe he's just trying to be helpful, you know? Like, I know you're probably gonna ask me when I last saw them, so I'm just gonna tell you before you ask, like, fine. But there's something about his behavior that's just a little off. Like, he doesn't seem all that concerned with the idea that his receptionist was just brutally murdered. He's a little aloof. He seems a little uninterested. And then he doesn't ask any questions. Like, not about the family, not about the crime, nothing. And this sticks out to investigators because literally everyone else they've talked to has asked at least one question. Right. Like, I would have 15.

Britt Prawat (36:31)

Yeah. Did they ask him about the affair rumors?

Ashley Flowers (36:34)

No, not. Not in this first conversation. This is more of, like, a casual chat.

Britt Prawat (36:39)

But they are feeling out the situation.

Ashley Flowers (36:40)

Yeah. See what he even comes forward with. But they're planning to now. Meanwhile, Linda's parents fly into Cincinnati, and they shed further light on just how rocky Linda and Jerry's relationship really was. They explained that the pair had gotten married about four years prior. According to a 2020 segment, Linda was 19, Jerry was 24, and Linda was two months pregnant with Debbie when they tied the knot. So it had been rocky from the start. I don't know if they would have gotten married had it not been for Debbie. Right. But their personalities and interests just didn't mesh at all. A big recent point of contention had been children because Jerry wanted more kids, but Linda wanted more dogs. Okay, like, go Linda. But sources vary on whether Linda didn't want any other kids ever at all, or if she just, like, wanted to wait a few years. I mean, I'm not sure that matters. Like, in that moment, they both did not want the same thing, and it had caused them to butt heads. In fact, her parents say that just a few months ago, Linda had taken Debbie to Florida on this little vacation that was actually what they call a trial separation because things had gotten so iffy or dicey at home. Now, Linda had ultimately decided to stay with Jerry. And while her parents don't know anything about this alleged affair or rumor of an affair, the details that they share make it seem all the more possible to police.

Britt Prawat (37:59)

Did Linda ever say anything to them that might, like, hint at who could have done this?

Ashley Flowers (38:04)

Not that I can tell because it seems like police are still hard up for a good lead, even though neighbors are still. I mean, they're getting like a bunch of tips and stuff, but I mean, I feel like if the family would have pointed them at someone, like, we would have heard something about that. But to go back to the tips, like, there are some good ones coming in. Like, for instance, one person reports seeing a man walking back and forth the previous Thursday in front of the Brica home. But, you know, at the time, they didn't think much of it. And of course now they can't even really describe the guy, so not all that helpful. Another acquaintance says that Linda had previously worked for another vet that had a history of mental health struggles and had previously been hospitalized for them. So police look into that, and they find out that Linda actually didn't used to work for him. But his office is two miles away from the Brica's home. But listen, spoilers all around. I'm just going to tell you now, this vet isn't on the short list of suspects, so I don't think he's even worth spending time on. But there is an interesting tip I do want to spend a little bit of time on from one of the Bricas neighbors. She says that just after 9pm she had glanced across their yard and noticed that their TV was on. Now, this stood out to her because she can't remember ever seeing their TV from the angle that she's at before, like, ever. And it's only now, days later, that she's realizing why she could see their tv, because she says the only way she could have seen it was if their back door was open.

Britt Prawat (39:26)

So it's not like through a window that's usually like the blinds are closed. It was because of this open door.

Ashley Flowers (39:30)

Right? She can see their TV now because their door was open and that like, normally that's not just sitting open. Now, she didn't see anyone coming or going. But what this does is it helps solidify a possible timeline and a possible point of entry for the killer. So they're thinking that he likely came through the back door shortly after Jerry put the trash cans out at nine. Now, there are a few other interesting tidbits. Again, there's a ton in Townsend's book, but here are the ones that stick out to me. One person says the brick has definitely kept the missing knife out on the counter, so anyone could have seen it and grabbed it. Another neighbor says that the day before the murder, she'd seen Linda in a car at about like 1pm with a man who definitely was not Jerry. And she describes this car as light gray or green, some kind of foreign make and model. And the driver was white, maybe in his mid-30s, with blonde hair and a long face.

Britt Prawat (40:24)

And what does Dr. Fred, the vet, look like?

Ashley Flowers (40:28)

Fred was blonde. Fred's 36, but he drove a red car. So I mean, he could have been driving a car that wasn't his. The ultimate thing is I don't think they ever identify this man that she might have been in the car with. So big question mark there. But actually, speaking of Fred, detectives begin hearing reports that Debbie called him Uncle Fred, as though she was super familiar with him, as though she would have recognized him. And I don't know if this has to do with an affair. I honestly think so. Linda was known to take her pets to the vet at, like, the slightest sign that something was wrong. Like, one of their neighbors says that she had come in several times a week to the vet, even at one point, like several times a day. And so it stands to reason that, you know, she might have brought Debbie if, like, one of the babysitters wasn't available or just like, cuz, I mean, we know she brought her when she left the book that one time.

Britt Prawat (41:20)

Right? I guess Uncle Fred seems so Close. Like.

Ashley Flowers (41:27)

Yeah.

Britt Prawat (41:27)

Even calling him Dr. Fred feels like.

Ashley Flowers (41:29)

That's what I was gonna say.

Britt Prawat (41:30)

That would make so much sense.

Ashley Flowers (41:31)

Oh, it's Dr. Fred with the pets.

Britt Prawat (41:33)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (41:33)

Uncle Fred feels like something else.

Britt Prawat (41:35)

It does. It's, like, distinctly different to me.

Ashley Flowers (41:38)

Yeah. And, like, there was actually a woman who asked Linda why Debbie called him that. And Linda didn't offer any kind of explanation. She just sort of, like, chuckled.

Britt Prawat (41:47)

It feels like. It feels like the 60s, like, stepdad title, right?

Ashley Flowers (41:51)

Yeah. Uncle Fred. I don't know. So not confirmation of an affair by any means, but a little sus. But the investigators aren't letting themselves get tunnel vision. Sure, maybe Linda was having an affair, but was that the motive? One does not mean the other, Right? Like, maybe, maybe not. Which is why on October 1st, when investigators release a theory, they don't claim that an affair was the motive. They say that sometime just after 9pm the family was probably in their family room watching TV. Jerry took Debbie up to bed, as was their routine. And that's when the killer entered the home. He grabbed the knife off the counter, forced Linda upstairs with the intent of sexually assaulting her, and then once in the bedroom, he killed her. And then he killed Jerry when he tried to stop him, is what they say.

Britt Prawat (42:42)

Questions.

Ashley Flowers (42:43)

I know. I don't love it.

Britt Prawat (42:44)

How do they explain the ligature marks? Because that theory doesn't have anybody tied or taped up.

Ashley Flowers (42:51)

Yeah, I don't know if they're thinking like, that he would have, like, bound Linda, but to me, it's, like, not. It's not to sexually assault her. Like, I mean, I know that because that's not. We know that's not what happened. Or it maybe didn't happen. I imagine, like. And this goes to the point of, like, two people, one person. Did he. He's putting Debbie to bed. Did he bind Linda, get her to the room? Waits for Jerry, binds him.

Britt Prawat (43:14)

Okay, but if Jerry is intervening, like, wouldn't he be stabbed in a frenzy? And then we come back to the back spatter. Like, if he was intervening, if he was interrupting the assault or murder of Linda, and he gets stabbed because he's intervening. That's frenzied. That's back spatter. That doesn't make sense.

Ashley Flowers (43:35)

The other reason this doesn't work for me is that Jerry and Linda's room was actually. You have to walk past Debbie's to get to Jerry and Linda's room. So. So if he's putting her to bed.

Britt Prawat (43:44)

They have to walk past him.

Ashley Flowers (43:47)

Right.

Britt Prawat (43:47)

To get to their bedroom.

Ashley Flowers (43:49)

I know?

Britt Prawat (43:49)

No.

Ashley Flowers (43:50)

So I don't know why they released this publicly. Maybe they're looking to just keep people talking about this. Maybe they're trying to get more tips, and maybe it works, like, because more do come in. There's a man that calls and says he was driving by the Brica house at around 11:30 the night of the murders. And he says he saw two men and a woman getting into a white or green car. And he says he remembers it because the woman looked frightened. It's dark, it's raining at the time, and the witness was just, like, driving past. So he didn't really get a good look at any of them. But I don't know. I have a feeling this wasn't Linda. Because why? Why would the killer take her out of the house? Killer or killers take her out of.

Britt Prawat (44:26)

The house, like, and then bring her back.

Ashley Flowers (44:28)

Especially if they're thinking everything happened at, like, nine. This is two and a half hours later.

Britt Prawat (44:33)

Yeah. I mean, did they check their banks at all? Like, would they be taking her to go get something? Although it's at night. Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (44:40)

11:30. And. Yeah, I don't know that what the ATM situation was in the 60s. But it doesn't say that they checked. I'm sure they did. Right? To, like, rule out this being, like, financially motivated. I feel like if they would have, like, gone to the bank and withdrawn everything, that'd be something they'd mention at this point. Right. But for some reason, investigators are pretty confident in this sighting, especially because it's partially corroborated by another person who was driving past around the same time. And this person says that they only saw one person, a white man. But the color of the car and the fact that it's parked outside of the Brica home are both the same. But it's great, but not super helpful. Right. Like, they can't figure out who they are or why they would have taken Linda if it was Linda that they took. But they might be one step closer to finding one of the mystery men in their case. Maybe not the driver of the car, but they might be closer to finding out who had sex with Linda before she died. Or rather, who didn't. Because they find out that the sperm sample, they do test it for a blood type at the coroner's office, and it was not a match for her husband. Jerry.

Britt Prawat (45:48)

We're gonna need a swab from Dr. Fred.

Ashley Flowers (45:51)

Okay, so that doesn't happen.

Britt Prawat (45:54)

What?

Ashley Flowers (45:55)

That's not their next step. I know that's the next step. That's the next Step. I know. I don't know. So if you remember and this actually was an episode with you, it was one I did on the deck, but I think we talked about it back. This deck episode I did on Dana Chisholm was like, in the 90s, and even then, the guy who was in charge of the investigations back then, he's like, we couldn't use DNA like a fishing expedition. The only time we could, because of the pricing, because of just the limited availability.

Britt Prawat (46:21)

It's very direct.

Ashley Flowers (46:22)

Yeah. It was like, this is our suspect. We're about to go to court. We want to prove this is our suspect. And so that's the only time they would do it. Like, in my mind, though, like, Fred might be your suspect.

Britt Prawat (46:33)

Like, can we just, like, name him as a suspect to use it? And then, like, if it's not, then okay, he's not a suspect.

Ashley Flowers (46:40)

And I get, like, not having it to be. Like, just in case anyone. But, like, there is someone you could direct, compare it to who's said to have had an affair with her.

Britt Prawat (46:46)

Who, like, is right there.

Ashley Flowers (46:47)

Is right there. But they don't. And maybe one of the reasons that they don't is because right around this time, there is someone else that comes on their radar that they seem to be much more interested in. And it's one of Jerry's co workers, this guy named Jim Cannon. Now, turns out Jim and Jerry did not get along. Jim had this tendency to flirt with just about every woman he could, including Linda, which pissed Jerry off to no end. And there's even this one rip. You're gonna die. There's this disgusting story from a former co worker who says that Jim gave a secretary lingerie as a gift for her birthday in front of everyone. That's Jim.

Britt Prawat (47:32)

I don't know if I would prefer that he gave the secretary lingerie in private.

Ashley Flowers (47:39)

No. Yeah, I guess that's not the Scandals.

Britt Prawat (47:41)

Pride story, but I don't think that it happened in of people either. I don't like that it happened at all. Ew.

Ashley Flowers (47:47)

So Jim is also recently divorced after having cheated on his wife. Surprise. From Jim. But it wasn't the racy gifts or the feuding with Jerry that made detectives so interested in him. It was the fact that he showed up outside the Brica's home the night that their bodies were found. Hi, I'm Cyndi Lauper. My scalp was covered with psoriasis, which could lead to psoriatic arthritis. But Cosentyx treats both.

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Britt Prawat (48:53)

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Ashley Flowers (49:27)

So the night that the bodies were found, word had spread quickly in the neighborhood and even beyond. This crowd gathered outside of the home made up of neighbors, some of Jerry's co workers who had heard about the discovery on the radio. And then Jim just suddenly sort of appeared in the crowd. And literally no one called this guy.

Britt Prawat (49:49)

I feel like no one ever calls Jim.

Ashley Flowers (49:50)

No one's ever calling Jim. So of course the group is like, hey, where'd you come from? And Jim replied that he had just been driving around. I mean, I mean he might have been going somewhere, but he's like, I was driving around, I was on a nearby road and I the police lights and I decided to come over, see what the big deal was not knowing that this house was the Brica house. And then he, without prompting, told the group that he'd been on vacation since the previous Friday. And the people around him were like, cool, cool. Like we didn't ask, we didn't care where you were, but thanks for the alibi question mark. Oh, and by the way, the road that Jim was driving on when he said he Noticed the lights did not have a view of the Brica house. So him seeing the lights seems a little unlikely. And, like, again, I go back to, like, why volunteer your PTO vacation days or whatever, your weekend plans, when it doesn't matter? Like, nobody asked you if you were here Sunday when they were killed. Jim.

Britt Prawat (50:50)

Yeah, this is all strange.

Ashley Flowers (50:52)

So add him to the list of people to check out, though not blood test, I guess. And this list is growing, by the way. It seems like every day someone's calling, telling police to look into this person or that person. Someone's acting weird. Someone has a criminal history. Someone is seen in the area in the days leading up to the murders who looked a little sketchy. But every single tip is just a dead end. I mean, early on, Jack Heffron reported for Cincinnati Magazine that neighbors even suggested the Bricas might be the victims of a serial killer. The Cincinnati Strangler, if you're familiar with that story. Because, like, so it was around this time there were seven women who were sexually assaulted and murdered around the Cincy area. That killer is still on the loose. Locals are like, you know, I mean, you had that going on. This happens. They're quick to think about that, want.

Britt Prawat (51:38)

To connect those dots, right?

Ashley Flowers (51:40)

But police, like, just as quickly as it comes up, police are like, no, that can't be. Like, the MO Is completely different here. And all the while, like, investigators, like, looking at their watch, like, TikTok, they're getting really frustrated with the FBI labor. It's taking forever. And when results finally come back, it's, like, not even worth the wait. The lab was able to isolate a few fibers, some hair, some other trace evidence, but they didn't do any further testing, nor did they even try to explain where or whom they all could have come from.

Britt Prawat (52:11)

So totally and completely unhelpful.

Ashley Flowers (52:14)

Unhelpful? Yeah.

Britt Prawat (52:15)

Basically. Why is no one looking harder at Fred and Jim? Dude, I mean, there's nothing else. There's no one else.

Ashley Flowers (52:23)

I know.

Britt Prawat (52:23)

I don't get it. Have we confronted them about any of this? I mean, I'm still waiting for them to ask Fred about this affair.

Ashley Flowers (52:29)

The affair. I know.

Britt Prawat (52:30)

What's the hold up?

Ashley Flowers (52:30)

I think what they're doing is they're asking around a bit more. I think they're trying to get more background information before they just, like, go at him. They're, like, putting some pieces together. They're trying to figure out if either of them had recent contact with Linda or Jerry. Like, don't get me wrong, I hate how long this is taking. But you do want to know the whole story before you fully confront someone.

Britt Prawat (52:52)

Go in, like, guns blazing.

Ashley Flowers (52:53)

It's frustrating as hell, but, like, otherwise, if you don't know the answers before you ask the questions, you don't know if someone's lying to you.

Britt Prawat (52:59)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (53:00)

And there is this one detail that they find out relating to Fred that stands out as they're doing all of this background. It turns out that the Thursday before she died, Linda had called his answering service with an emergency. But she didn't say what she needed him to call her back for, because the woman who answered the phone, like, she took the message, she marked it down for the doctor to, like, come back to. But I don't know if he called her back. I don't know if anything happened. Again, she didn't say what the emergency was. Now, obviously, we know Linda was, like, prone to calling her vet. Feels like more than most people. So it could have been nothing. But what makes this stand out is that she had never called his answering service with an emergency before. And if she truly had an emergency with one of her pets, she would.

Britt Prawat (53:47)

Have just gone there.

Ashley Flowers (53:48)

We know the girl is not, like, above going multiple times a day. Like, she, like, loves her pets to death, so she would have hurried and taken them there to get help right away.

Britt Prawat (53:56)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (53:56)

So it does feel off. But at the same time, they're learning more about Fred. They do get more tea on Jim, and he's seeming more like a viable suspect, too, because they get this tip from a man who says that he was driving past the plant where Jerry worked, and he noticed two men fistfighting in the parking lot. Now, he didn't recognize either man at the time, but once he saw Jerry's face in the paper, he's like, oh, dude, that's like the guy he was fist fighting with.

Britt Prawat (54:22)

Wait, when was this?

Ashley Flowers (54:24)

This was the day before the murders.

Britt Prawat (54:25)

What?

Ashley Flowers (54:26)

Yeah. And when investigators asked the other employees if they know anything about the physical altercation, a few of them say that they saw some altercation happen. And while they weren't sure who it was, they wouldn't be surprised. They say, if Jim was involved because he has this super quick temper, especially when he drank. So investigators finally do go interview him.

Britt Prawat (54:48)

Finally.

Ashley Flowers (54:49)

I know, I know. So Jim claims that he last saw Jerry on the Thursday before he was murdered. And he states that he was on PTO from Friday the 23rd through Tuesday the 27th, which investigators can corroborate. Now, while he was off, he says that he left town on Saturday Drove to Indiana, where he visited his brother that day and then his mother on Sunday. And then later that Sunday night, he hung out with his uncle and then went to hang out with some friends until about 11pm and then afterwards, he went back to his mom's house and eventually drove back to Cincinnati on Tuesday. Now, when they ask him how he came to be at the Bricas house on Tuesday evening, he reiterates what he told his coworkers. That he saw police cars. He decided to just check out what was happening. But he also claims that he didn't even know it was the Bricka's house and that he had never been there, which wasn't true. Jim had given Jerry a few rides a couple of years prior. Now, is it possible he just didn't remember? Sure, maybe. But, like.

Britt Prawat (55:51)

But it's still there.

Ashley Flowers (55:52)

Stands out. So investigators ask him what his relationship was like with Jerry, and he says that their only arguments were about work and that they didn't fight about anything personal.

Britt Prawat (56:01)

So the fist fight just didn't happen.

Ashley Flowers (56:05)

Well, I don't know if they decided all. Doesn't matter. Based on the answer to their next question, which was, what car do you drive? And when he says he doesn't drive a green or a white car, they, like, don't care.

Britt Prawat (56:16)

I'm sorry. No. If there was more than one killer, he might not have been in his own car. I mean, or maybe, like, I don't know. If you're gonna commit a murder, you don't use your own car.

Ashley Flowers (56:28)

Yeah, I have all the questions. Also, we, like. I don't know why everyone's, like, so bought in on this car. I don't know.

Britt Prawat (56:35)

There's, like, a million other things to follow up on, but they're like, no, this is 1,000% the car that was there.

Ashley Flowers (56:41)

But let's still not, like, test the blood. So one of the reasons they basically are like, listen, his alibi is so detailed. Maybe he's not a viable suspect.

Britt Prawat (56:51)

Okay, but did they check out the alibi?

Ashley Flowers (56:53)

I don't know that. I truly don't know. If they're just like, oh, well, you were in Indiana. You must have been. In my mind, I'm like, you took pto like, and, like, his. Even if. Even if they did, like, it's his mom. I know, I know. I'd like to think that they, like, thoroughly vetted this. I don't know. But I guess knowing that they still have a solid suspect in Fred, I get the impression that they just sort of move on. But at least they don't waste any more time because after talking to him, they do head directly. We're talking same day, to go talk to Fred. Now they start asking him, like, some real questions this time. Have you ever been inside the Brica's home? To which he says only once. He had to treat some rabbits and a bird that Linda had. And he claims that the last time he saw Linda was that Wednesday before she died. The time where she was, like, at work super late.

Britt Prawat (57:43)

That's the night that she stayed and, like, had a drink with him because they couldn't save one. Like the cat or something.

Ashley Flowers (57:49)

But worth noting, he doesn't, like, say any of that part.

Britt Prawat (57:52)

Like, he's like, oh, he doesn't mention the drink.

Ashley Flowers (57:55)

No, no, no, no. But they don't call him out on it. They're hoping to get more from him. So they ask him when he last spoke to Linda, and he says that Saturday, that's when he had called to offer to bring her on permanently, which she agreed to. And then they ask him about the call that Linda had placed Thursday night, that emergency one she made to his answering service. And this is where the tone of the interview just shifts because Fred says that he wasn't aware that she had left a message. But then he says he's not sure if he picked up the message or if he replied to her. And then he says it's possible Linda called him and he called her back on Thursday. But, like, he can't remember what. And sure, like, it's been a few weeks by now. Maybe he just forgot. But he's not bringing up the drink that he had on Wednesday. He can't remember if he talked to her on, like, something is up here.

Britt Prawat (58:50)

Yeah. And like, this is someone that if she's there at the vet all the time with her animals, it's not just a random patient.

Ashley Flowers (58:57)

Uncle Fred.

Britt Prawat (58:59)

Uncle Fred. Exactly. Like you would. I would think you would replay the moments that you last saw somebody who had that, you know.

Ashley Flowers (59:06)

Yeah. So they ask Uncle Fred where he was On Sunday the 25th, the night of the murders. According to Townsend's book, Fred says that he must have come into the clinic that night. It wasn't open, but they had some animals who needed feeding and general care. And two people previously working for him had quit, so he was the one that had to do it. But that's not totally accurate because they know Linda wasn't the only new hire there at the clinic. He had recently hired two other people to help him out with that very Thing. This is why you do your background before. So why go on a Sunday night when you literally just got two people to help you out and do that kind of stuff? And investigators ask him that very question. And Fred says that, like, oh, well, then I must have been called in. Except there's no record of him being called in, since they don't keep those kinds of records, apparently. And then he says, actually, you know what? I might have been spending time with my in laws instead. So this whole. Oh, yeah, Fred's married. So this whole time he's getting, like, noticeably nervous. And that's when detectives ask him about the nature of his relationship with Linda. And he just straight up shuts down the interview. This is it. They can feel it. So if he won't talk, they're like, okay, let's go talk to this dude's wife.

Britt Prawat (60:31)

Still floored that he's married.

Ashley Flowers (60:33)

I know. With five kids, my friend.

Britt Prawat (60:35)

Oh, my God.

Ashley Flowers (60:36)

So they go speak to his wife while he's out of the house, or at least they try to, but she tells them she's not going to talk to them without their lawyer present, which throws a whole wrench into their plans because now he's got a lawyer and is refusing to cooperate.

Britt Prawat (60:50)

Okay, go with me on this. Going back to the author's idea that there were two killers, is there any world where the wife is also involved?

Ashley Flowers (61:04)

I thought about that too. There's nothing that points to her being involved.

Britt Prawat (61:08)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (61:09)

You'll see a lot of rumors online, but, like, it comes out of nowhere.

Britt Prawat (61:13)

It's like she's kind of like a spouse, is like a natural accomplice. And there are like, there's nothing else there.

Ashley Flowers (61:20)

Yeah, Literally on forums and stuff, there are like all these wild accusations about, like, it's wild how I can, like, people will literally make up conversations that they, like, could have had. And this led to this. To this. And I'm like, but where did that start? Oh, you made that up.

Britt Prawat (61:31)

Right?

Ashley Flowers (61:31)

Cool. So sure. But anyone could be an accomplice. There's nothing to say that it would have been her. So anyway, since they're not talking, they decide to start interviewing everyone in Fred's circle. His in laws tell them that he wasn't at their place Sunday, did not come for a visit. And a friend says that on the Friday before she died, Linda unexpectedly showed up to this archery range that this friend and Fred were shooting at, and she came over and asked if she could follow them around. And the friend says that Fred seemed really nervous at first, but Then like, by the time they all finished up, he was kind of fine. They all parted ways. Like the friend left, but like, Fred and Linda stayed behind.

Britt Prawat (62:11)

So he lied about the last time he saw her then.

Ashley Flowers (62:15)

He did. But he can lie all he wants. That's not proof that he killed this family.

Britt Prawat (62:21)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (62:22)

Now what would be proof?

Britt Prawat (62:24)

Evidence.

Ashley Flowers (62:24)

The blood typing. Yeah, actual evidence. Or putting his prince in the house? Because by the way, they did find unknown prince.

Britt Prawat (62:32)

Okay, but even that isn't like 1000% though, right? Because like the sexual encounter that Linda had was a full day before she was killed.

Ashley Flowers (62:43)

Yeah.

Britt Prawat (62:43)

Fred's admitted to being in the house. Like his prints being there, him even being.

Ashley Flowers (62:49)

If they were having an affair. I know what I don't know about the print. I don't know where the prints were found. Like, if the prints were found in blood, like, that's not something you could get past. I just. There's a lot I don't know. And if like, most importantly, I don't even think that they compared him to anything. That's the biggest thing. It's like, let him make up an excuse once he has one to make. Right. Or if we should be looking somewhere else. But it just seems like that doesn't happen. And so then even with these like two suspects that they have, things just seem to fizzle out.

Britt Prawat (63:21)

I'm going to sound like a broken record going back to the two killers idea. If Fred or Jim honestly killed the family, who else, who else would have helped them?

Ashley Flowers (63:33)

Right? So like, if not the wife, if.

Britt Prawat (63:35)

Not the wife, if not like them going solo, which seems so improbable, like, who is the accomplice? Who's either of them?

Ashley Flowers (63:44)

There's a few names that kind of get thrown around, but there's quite literally zero evidence that any of them had anything to do with it. I mean, a lot of the theories surrounding their friends feel so thin. I don't even, like, I don't even think it's worth spending time on. I personally don't think it's wild to think that it's like one person. I don't know why, but I just don't. But what I do know is that with new crimes happening every day, by October 13, most of the investigators on the Bricket investigation. Investigation are reassigned. They really are only able to give attention to the case if a new lead finds them. And thank freaking God, that's exactly what happens a few days after. That's when the owner of a liquor store that's just a half mile from the family's house, calls police and tells them that he had a story from that Sunday night that the family was murdered that he can't stop thinking about. He says that around 10:30pm none other than Uncle Fred walked into the store and used the phone. He described him as looking a little shaggy, like not his usual cleaned up self. He attributed that to the rain. But he said that Fred seemed really nervous. And when he dialed, whoever he was calling didn't pick up. Like, he dialed. He let it ring a few times, hung up, dialed again. And the man says that Fred told him it was an emergency, but he didn't give him any details about said emergency. And he also claims that this whole time Fred has his left hand, like, firmly in his pocket, and he can see that his right hand is, like, shaking. And more than anything, despite him being a regular customer, like before all of this, after this weird night where he comes in shaking with an emergency and trying to call someone who won't answer, like, he never comes back into the store.

Britt Prawat (65:29)

Why didn't this guy bring any of this up earlier?

Ashley Flowers (65:32)

I know he said that it had been on his mind, but he didn't think it was very important. But he's only coming forward now because I guess someone had tried to break into his own house a few nights before, and it scared him and his wife so much that he decided he needed to come forward with this story.

Britt Prawat (65:50)

Someone trying to break into his house reminded him of Fred.

Ashley Flowers (65:54)

I think he's just, like, thinking of all this strange stuff that had been happening. Like, I don't think he's believing Fred tried to break in, or it's just, like, unsettling.

Britt Prawat (66:01)

I don't know.

Ashley Flowers (66:01)

Yeah, I mean, I just got the impression that it had been, like, eating at him for a while. And this attempted break in gives him the kick he needs to at least tell police what happened. I don't know. But he has one more thing to add that I think is really important. So he says that he actually passed the Bricas house on his way home that Sunday night, and he said he noticed a blue car parked in front.

Britt Prawat (66:23)

Of their house, which is different than the green. All the cars that we've talked about before.

Ashley Flowers (66:28)

Yeah. Now, Fred doesn't have a blue car, but he also says it was raining really hard. At that point, he couldn't see very well. He's not 100% sure if this description is accurate. But after this, more circumstantial evidence continues to pile up. For instance, remember the tape that they found on Jerry's face?

Britt Prawat (66:45)

Uh, no.

Ashley Flowers (66:47)

So it was like, when they were first found, he had some, like, on his chin or, like, cheek or something. Just a little bit of tape. So investigators do some digging to figure out where this is from. I assume they, like, don't find any tape in the house that's like that. Cause they really, like, dive into this. And wouldn't you know it, it's tape that is most often used in a vet's office.

Britt Prawat (67:07)

Well, if I wasn't convinced before, feels like a good time to test some blood types, people.

Ashley Flowers (67:15)

And this is the first place, like, when I. Or one of the first places I saw that it mentions him not giving samples. So I don't know if that's been part of the holdup, but I feel like there should be enough for a warrant. If not, I feel like I don't understand warrants.

Britt Prawat (67:30)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (67:31)

Like, there's a lot, like, especially now.

Britt Prawat (67:33)

With this vet tape situation.

Ashley Flowers (67:35)

Right. So weeks continue to pass. Police eventually announced that they believe the killer is a white man based on those hairs that the FBI isolated. But, like, that's not really a surprise. And just like the attempted break in at the store owner's home, these, like, odd occurrences keep happening around town. Like, in December, nine Marlboro cigarette butts are found in a ring around Linda's grave.

Britt Prawat (68:04)

And that was the same kind that were at the crime scene.

Ashley Flowers (68:06)

Yeah, but to get anything from the cigarettes, you'd be talking about DNA. And fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you see it, that is the next thing that they try in 2002. Brett. What? Yeah, evidence. Like, nothing happens between them. They can't move the case.

Britt Prawat (68:25)

There's just nothing.

Ashley Flowers (68:26)

Yeah. So in 2002, evidence gets retested. They do extract a DNA profile from what, I don't know. But it's only a partial profile. Not enough to actually, like, put in a database that we would have in 2002, and not enough to get them any further.

Britt Prawat (68:43)

You can do a direct comparison, though.

Ashley Flowers (68:46)

You can. The frustrating part is I don't know if that ever happens with anyone. There is, like, zero reporting on that. And DNA testing, like, all of this is something that the author J.T. townsend, has been campaigning for since as recently as 2022. And I'm not even talking just direct comparisons, but for, like, any remaining evidence to be retested. Because, I mean, forget the 60s. Technology has come a long way since 2002. We're 20 years out from that. Plus, so there's no telling what they can do with genealogy, what secrets that like the DNA within this evidence might hold. And unfortunately, I think direct comparisons are gonna be hard because many of the suspects aren't around anymore. I know Fred passed away in 2004. He was found deceased in a hotel room in downtown Cincinnati, and his wife was found with him, barely clinging to life. She died. Ended up dying a few days later in the hospital. And according to a brief note left by the couple, Fred's wife's health was failing. His heart wasn't doing super well. He was depressed over losing a bunch of money a few years before that, so they decided to die by suicide together.

Britt Prawat (69:56)

Oh, my God.

Ashley Flowers (69:56)

So he was 72 and she was 73. I couldn't find out where Jim is, and maybe it doesn't matter. I mean, maybe there is someone else out there that we should be looking.

Britt Prawat (70:06)

Did they do any testing of Fred's DNA after he died?

Ashley Flowers (70:09)

I don't know the law around that or if they can, but it is. It is infuriating to me that a little more wasn't done. But it does mean that there is still so much hope. So if anyone listening who maybe is with the agency in Ohio that like, touches this case or any agency in Ohio that touches this case, like, this is my reminder to you about Season of Justice. That's the nonprofit I founded that provides grants to do advanced testing in cold cases. The application for that is super quick, super painless. The money goes directly to the third party lab and you can apply@season of justice.org hopefully we'll be back one day with an update on this episode. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

Britt Prawat (71:06)

And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.

Ashley Flowers (71:10)

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around for the good segment.

Britt Prawat (71:42)

So as you guys may know, October is domestic violence awareness month. And this month we actually want to highlight a really cool submission we got from someone who was inspired by some good we shared in our October segment last year. Ashley, last year?

Ashley Flowers (71:58)

Have we been doing this segment a year? Oh, my God.

Britt Prawat (72:00)

I know.

Ashley Flowers (72:01)

The good inspiring and the good. Let's do it.

Britt Prawat (72:03)

Yeah. So this one is from Morgan and she wrote, I just want to come on here and tell you how much this podcast and this community has helped me. About a month ago, the day after my 20th birthday, I finally grew the courage to leave my abuser. From the age of 17 to 20, I was stuck in this endless cycle of what felt like hell. Your podcast speaks about domestic violence quite often. And had I not heard one of the episodes where a mother explained to her daughter that she could always come home no matter what. I was finally brave enough to pack my things and go. I called my dad that morning and he was there within second. We loaded all my stuff into his truck and I went home, home, home. The smile that was on my face from pure relief, joy, and pride of how strong I was to be able to leave that situation. That smile didn't leave for days. When people tell you the signs and the red flags when it comes to domestic violence, you think, that can't be me, right? And, oh, my, I wish I would have trusted my gut instinct when I heard others speak about the signs. I did not and will not become another statistic. I stand strong today and remind myself that it's okay to talk about these things, to make others aware of the signs. I would like to thank the podcast and community from the bottom of my heart for the work you guys are doing. Even when you think no one may be listening, we are listening, and it is so very, very helpful. Thank you, crime junkie. You will forever be in my heart.

Ashley Flowers (73:38)

That's so cool. I think I love what she's talking about, the community, because. Right. That's not anything that, you know, we.

Britt Prawat (73:43)

Simply gave a voice to another.

Ashley Flowers (73:46)

And if anyone doesn't.

Britt Prawat (73:47)

Person.

Ashley Flowers (73:48)

Yeah. If anyone doesn't remember, it was a story about, like, a. I think it was a stepmother and her daughter or a mother and her daughter, but they were in the car and it was like an awkward kind of relationship or.

Britt Prawat (73:58)

And they had been listening to episodes together. And she was like, just so, you know, like.

Ashley Flowers (74:02)

Yeah. And she's like, I just chose this one. I think it was the Susan Powell one for some reason. But she's like, I chose this one. And she's like, you know, FYI. And she's like, I never had a reason to even think. They seemed like they had the perfect.

Britt Prawat (74:11)

Relationship for no reason whatsoever. I said this thing. She could always come home.

Ashley Flowers (74:16)

And then she did. And. Wow.

Britt Prawat (74:18)

Yeah. And we told that story at the end of our episode on Patricia Newsome.

Ashley Flowers (74:23)

Morgan, I am so glad that you're safe and sound. And, you guys, this is what it's all about. Like, we're the ones with the mics in this community, but you guys are like, what have built it over all this time? And, like, it means so much more coming from you at some point than it even does from us. So, like, I love that you guys are constantly supporting one another. Like learning from one another. Like this is the peak.

Britt Prawat (74:45)

This is the coolest job in the world. And like it's all thanks to you guys. Crime Junkies. So stay safe out there and love you. Love you. Keep up the good.

Ashley Flowers (75:01)

Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?

Britt Prawat (75:10)

Join me Dr. Panico with Cyndi Lauper and chef Michelle Bernstein to talk about plaque psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.

Cyndi Lauper (75:22)

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Britt Prawat (75:56)

Happy holidays, Crime Junkies if you're searching for the perfect gift for the Crime Junkie in your life or looking to add something to your own wishlist, we've got you covered with this season's Crime Junkie Merch Store. The Crime Junkie Merch Store is open right now, so whether you're looking for a cozy crewneck, a new favorite T shirt, a classic hoodie, or some fun stocking stuffers, you'll find the perfect thing in our latest merch drop. The Crime Junkie Merch Store is only open for a limited time, so don't wait. Head to crimejunkypodcast.com to get your favorites today.