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Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
00:54:49
Between 2005 and 2008, eight women are killed in and around the small town of Jennings, Louisiana. Rumors of a serial killer on the loose are met with apathy by local law enforcement, possibly due to the corruption that’s broken the trust between the public and the forces meant to protect them. Over a decade later, the question still remains: who killed the Jeff Davis 8?
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- [00:00]
Ashley Flowers
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- [00:21]
Britt
Prepare for the crime and investigation event of the new year with the premiere of two groundbreaking new series on A and E. Each week hit the streets of the Big Easy with a dedicated team of detectives as they search for for answers and justice in the gripping new series Homicide New Orleans. Then join an elite Mexican task force in their pursuit of American fugitives hiding south of the border in Fugitive Hunters Mexico. Homicide Squad New Orleans premieres Thursday at 9, followed by fugitive hunters Mexico at 10. Part of a crime and investigation event only on A and E. Your life.
- [00:54]
Ashley Flowers
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- [01:34]
Britt
Down the chimney or gets broken like.
- [01:36]
Ashley Flowers
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- [01:58]
Britt
See verizon.com for details.
- [01:59]
Ashley Flowers
Apple Intelligence available now. Hi crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Flowers.
- [02:05]
Unknown
And I'm Britt.
- [02:06]
Ashley Flowers
And the story I have for you today could probably be its own season of counterclock. It is about eight women, all last seen in the same small town in Louisiana, all connected by much more than their deaths, and this rabbit hole goes deep. But answers could be just around the corner. Because someone knows something. And all it takes is one person to unravel this decades old mystery. So crime junkies grab your snacks, pull out your string boards and settle in. Because this is the story of the Jeff Davis. It's May 20, 2005, and a man named Jerry Jackson is ready for a warm, relaxing afternoon fishing. He's standing on a bridge overlooking a canal less than 10 miles from his home in Jennings, Louisiana. And before he even baits his hook, he notices something churning in the water below. At first he thinks he's looking at a mannequin. Never cherry? No. But he has reason for thinking that. So he had recently heard a news story about some mannequins being stolen nearby. So at first he's like, yeah, he's like, oh, it must be one of those stolen mannequins. But as he looks closer, he has this like sickening realization that plastic wouldn't attract the swarm of flies that he sees buzzing around. So he quickly calls 911, and within minutes, authorities from the Jefferson Davis Parish Sheriff's Office are on the scene. And they begin to pull a woman's body out of the canal. Now, she's clothed, she's wearing blue jeans, a white blouse, but nothing else is on her, like no id, nothing. And considering that she's in an advanced state of decomposition, they know IDing her could be tough. So her autopsy the next day tells them that she's been in the water for about three days. But they can't find a cause of death. There's no mention of drowning, no mention of sexual assault, and no sign of significant injury. Although Ethan Brown's book Murder in the Bayou does mention some blood under her scalp. But I'm honestly a little unclear like what that's referring to. And a tox screen reveals there are some drugs in her system, but they can't tell if it was enough for an overdose. So her manner of death ends up being classified as undetermined. But there is one answer they get from this autopsy. Through fingerprints, she is identified as 28 year old Loretta Chasson. Loretta's name isn't unfamiliar to police and Jennings. She's a sex worker. She'd had several run ins or prior arrests that often revolved around drugs and theft. And although no one had reported her missing, they end up learning from one of her brothers that he had last seen Loretta three days before. The fisherman had found her on the 17th and he saw her at a gas station there in town. Now, this brother had watched Loretta willingly get into a vehicle of this guy named Frankie Richard, and that is another name that is well known in town, he has connections to just about everyone in Jennings criminal underworld, from drugs to sex work to just, like, general violence. And according to Ethan Brown's book, word on the street is that Loretta was seen after this as well. So she gets in this guy's car, and then she's seen later at this bar and motel known as the Boudreaux Inn. It's one of the few hubs in town known for sex work and drug activity. So according to some folks who claim that they saw her, she was seen with two other sex workers and this man who goes by the nickname Stymie. But what happened to her after she left the inn or how she ended up in the canal is anyone's guess. And since Loretta's death isn't determined a homicide, there isn't this, like, big push for answers. I mean, I know police interview a few people after her death, but what those people say isn't totally clear. And they might not have said much of anything at all. Because the divide between many of the residents of Jennings and the police is, like, very wide and very deep for a few reasons. One being that Jennings and the larger Jefferson Davis Parish it's located in sits between Houston and New Orleans. And this makes it, like, the perfect pit stop for drug traffickers moving between the two big cities. And it leaves Jennings with a major drug problem. People tied up in illegal activity don't tend to love talking to the police.
- [07:06]
Unknown
Right.
- [07:07]
Ashley Flowers
They also don't really trust them, and rightfully so, because both Jennings PD and the Jefferson Davis Parish Sheriff's Office have faced accusations of corruption for things like selling drugs that they captured in raids, using public finances for private expenses, harassing and assaulting local sex workers. I mean, the list goes on and on. But according to reporting by Deanna Paul for the Washington Post, as much as the local community might not trust them, it actually doesn't keep them from calling them about this case. The thing is, they're not calling with tips, though. They want information. They want to know if they should be scared. Because, you see, even though police aren't calling Loretta's death a homicide, just about everyone she knew and worked with is. And for some reason, there is this rumor going around that there is a serial killer on the loose. I don't know why or how or where these even started, because it's not like there is a string of cases that are unsolved, at least not yet anyway. But less than a month later, another woman's body is found in a canal five to six miles away from where Loretta was found. And it is deja vu. When she's pulled from the water. She also looks like she's been there for a few days at least. She's partially clothed, she's wearing denim shorts. And despite the decomp this time there is an obvious wound. Everyone at the scene can see several clear gashes to her throat. So over the next few days, she is identified as 30 year old Ernestine Patterson. There's no arguing that her death is a homicide. In addition to the cuts on her throat, there are also some bruising that they find on her hands, indicating that she had some kind of struggle before her death. Just like Loretta, A tox screen reveals drugs in her system. And Ernestine also they find out participated in sex work and she struggled with substance use disorder. In fact, she and Loretta actually ran in a lot of the same circles, knew a lot of the same people.
- [09:15]
Unknown
And now they've both been found in canals under suspicious circumstances. So I assume this only fuels the serial killer talk out there.
- [09:24]
Ashley Flowers
So you would think, but just when everyone is like getting on that train, there's like this holdup moment because unlike the serial killer rumor that seems to pop up out of nowhere and like never get traced back to anyone, there are people who actually come forward this time with some pretty compelling stories about what might have happened to Ernestine. According to Ethan Brown's book, the running theory is that Ernestine was out looking for clients and had sex with a man named Byron Chad Jones. Now, Byron's friend Lawrence Nixon was apparently also there, though it's unclear if they had sex. But if you believe the rumors, they killed Ernestine and dumped her in the canal. And there does seem to be some there there to all of this. Lawrence's wife, for one, eventually tells police that the two men showed up to her house with this huge blood soaked trash bag filled with something and then left the bag sitting out on their front porch and admitted to her that they'd killed Ernestine. Now, his wife's daughter was home that night too, and she says that she saw Lawrence covered in blood when he came home. Ernestine's uncle is one of Lawrence's neighbors and he'd actually given Lawrence an industrial sized trash bag earlier that same day. And then police also hear through the grapevine that Byron, the other guy and Lawrence had left a jagged hunting knife in an abandoned home where whatever happened allegedly went down. Now, based on these witness accounts, Byron and Lawrence are eventually indicted for second Degree murder, to which they plead not guilty. And the case against them quickly just falls apart, though, mostly because it's based on all this hearsay statement and rumors from people. And police didn't seem to make use of the opportunity to actually gather any physical evidence. Like, for instance, that abandoned house with the hunting knife and all of that. Like, that house is never searched. No bloody trash bag is ever found.
- [11:23]
Unknown
The assumption being that she'd been in that bag and they'd used it to transport her.
- [11:28]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah.
- [11:29]
Unknown
Can they test the porch that the bag was on?
- [11:32]
Ashley Flowers
Oh, my God, the porch. So, yes, and they do. But they do this 16 months after Ernestine's death.
- [11:38]
Unknown
Over a year.
- [11:39]
Ashley Flowers
Nothing usable. But, I mean, I'd be surprised if they could have even gotten anything usable had they gone right away. Because Lawrence's wife, when she's telling them her story, she admits to hosing down the porch after they supposedly left to go dump Ernestine's body.
- [11:54]
Unknown
Just hosed off the blood. No questions asked.
- [11:57]
Ashley Flowers
No questions asked. And look, neither of those guys are, like, squeaky clean by any means. Byron had been arrested for things like robbery and sexual assault, though I couldn't find what the outcomes of those charges actually were. Lawrence had recently been indicted, along with others for conspiracy to commit forcible rape, to which he pleaded not guilty, and those charges were later dropped. But they have zero physical evidence tying these guys to Ernestine to her murder, which means they go free.
- [12:27]
Unknown
Was there anything to connect these guys to Loretta's case?
- [12:30]
Ashley Flowers
No, not that I can see. I mean, they might have known her, like, or crossed paths with her, but nothing that would have indicated that they were suspects in her death. I don't think they ever get looked at for her death. So once this, like, goes away for Byron and Lawrence, like, police are back to square one. And for nearly two years after Ernestine's death, things are relatively quiet in Jennings. Even the rumors of a serial killer seem to kind of die down. That is, until 2007, when two more women are killed. Nearly back to back. I've been trying to cut back on coffee, so I've been looking for substitutions that I can work in throughout the day. And I give myself one cup of joe in the morning. And then for the afternoon, I've been trying Rye's Mushroom Coffee, which sounds wild, at least to, like, my Midwest self. It did, but it's been a great find. And for my, like, I hate mushroom people. It doesn't taste like mushroom soup or anything. They have a bunch of different products, even hot chocolate. The benefits are awesome. Rise Mushroom Coffee is a custom powerhouse blend of six functional mushrooms crafted to fuel your body and mind all day long. It helps with all day energy, sharper focus, healthy digestion and immune support. It's been a nice little boost for me in the afternoon when I get to that like post lunch 2pm crash and with over 150,000 5 star reviews, you likely won't be disappointed. Try Rise mushroom coffee with 15% off your first order at risesuperfoods.com crimejunkie that's R Y Z E superfoods.com crimejunkIe don't just wake up. Awaken with Rise.
- [14:10]
Britt
Prepare for the crime and investigation event of the new year with the premiere of two groundbreaking new series on A and E. Each week hit the streets of the Big Easy with a dedicated team of detectives as they search for answers and justice in the gripping new series Homicide New Orleans, then join an elite Mexican task force in their pursuit of American fugitives hiding south of the border in Fugitive Hunters Mexico. Homicide Squad New Orleans premieres Thursday at 9, followed by fugitive hunters Mexico at 10, part of a crime and investigation event only on a D.
- [14:43]
Ashley Flowers
The first woman that's found is 21 year old Kristen Gary Lopez, who's found nearly nude in another canal just outside of Jennings in March. And then 26 year old Whitney Dubois is found off a remote road in May. Now, Kristen was the most decomposed of all the victims found so far, but it made sense since she'd been missing for over 10 days before she was found. They found that she had died from a mix of drug intoxication, asphyxia and drowning, according to Ethan Brown's reporting. But her manner of death was undetermined. Now Whitney was found like a day after she was killed, but somehow they know even less because both her manner and cause of death end up getting listed as undetermined. So the discovery of the two women's bodies bring all the panic and all the fear of a serial killer roaring back to life for the people of Jennings. Although despite now four apparent victims, the police publicly were taking a more cautious tone. While they felt these deaths could be connected, they said they weren't willing to claim that they had a serial killer on the loose. But it's clear to everyone else that something is going on here because again, these were two women who ran together. Kristin and Whitney were both involved in sex work. They had connections to the other victims as well. Kristen had even been interviewed by police after Loretta's death. And this is when we Start to see the outline of this, like, web of connections. So remember Frankie Richard?
- [16:21]
Unknown
He's the guy who picked up Loretta before going to the inn, making him.
- [16:25]
Ashley Flowers
One of the last people to see her alive. Now, to be clear, not the last, but I think that's part of this weird pattern. So with Kristin, on the day Kristen vanished, she'd been hanging out with Loretta's cousin, this woman named Tracy. And Tracy tells police that she and Kristin had gone to see Frankie at the motel that he was staying at there in town. Kristen trusted him, almost like a father figure, but they'd recently had some kind of falling out, so he ends up kicking them out of his room. After that, Tracy and Kristen end up at, like, a house on the south side of Jennings. That's where Tracy left Kristen. So again, Frankie wasn't necessarily the last person to see Kristen love, but he.
- [17:07]
Unknown
Was one of them.
- [17:07]
Ashley Flowers
But one of them. And then with Whitney, he was truly the last. So she was last seen on May 11 arguing with Frankie outside of his house. Not sure what they were arguing about, but if the rumors are to be believed, he followed her when she stormed off after this, like, argument or whatever. Now, Frankie ends up admitting to both of these encounters with both of these women, but he claims, like, he has nothing to do with their deaths, but.
- [17:36]
Unknown
Connections, and, like, Last moment connections. 3 out of 3 out of 4.
- [17:40]
Ashley Flowers
I know it feels like more than a coincidence and four women from the same community showing up dead in similar ways, similar places kind of thing. It's like, it isn't feeling like much of a coincidence to the people who have been already convinced that there is a serial killer, like, since day one. And the sheriff at the time, this guy Ricky Edwards, he isn't really doing anything, like, to assuage anyone's fears. He kind of dances around the serial killer rumors, pointing to, like, the technicality that three of the women's deaths are classified as undetermined. Like, they don't know if this is.
- [18:16]
Unknown
There can't be a serial killer if three other women couldn't be determined to be killed.
- [18:20]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, like, they're like, we don't know if it's a single. Whatever. We don't know if it's several people. At one point, he claims that they may be dealing with a serial dumper, as he puts it.
- [18:30]
Unknown
What's that? I've never heard of a serial dumper.
- [18:33]
Ashley Flowers
You haven't heard of it? Cause it's not a thing. Like, he literally made this up, piecing it together, like, with what he says later. Which is basically that, like, all of these women lived very high risk lifestyles. That's what led to their death. I think it was his insinuation that maybe the three undetermined, at least those deaths were some kind of accident or something. Kind of their fault is his implication. But maybe that they were all hanging out with the same people who then just disposed of their bodies in similar ways. And like, no fear, he gets mad backlash for all of this later. Kind of walks it back. But when your sheriff is saying things like that, it doesn't breed confidence that law enforcement is doing everything they can to get to the bottom of whatever's going on. Not to mention it doesn't appear that they're very good at solving murders to begin with. According to several news articles and Ethan's book, statistics from the FBI show that the Jefferson Davis Parish clearance rate for homicides. Like, I don't even, like, want to make you guess. It is so abysmal. It was just under 7%, which, like the national clearance rate is over 60. That's a single digit abysmal. Everyone's frustrated, Everyone is scared. It feels like there is no hope. That is until May 16th. This is four days after Whitney's body is found. That's when police announced that they have charged two people with Kristin's murder. Now, police didn't have to look hard to find Frankie Richard. He was already sitting in jail at this point point on a pending sexual assault charge. An assault where, by the way, the survivor alleges that Frankie threatened that she would, quote, end up like the others if she told anyone, referencing the four women who've already been found deceased. So he's one of the two they charged. They charged him with second degree murder in Kristen's case, along with his niece Hannah, who was one of Kristen's friends. And the arrest seems to be based on testimony or from Loretta's cousin Tracy. Remember her? So her story by this point has changed. Her first story was they hang out, they go to Frankie's motel. He kicks them out, they go somewhere else. Tracy goes home, leaves Kristen at the house, whatever. Well, according to Ethan Brown's book, no. Tracy now tells investigators that she was with Kristen, Frankie, Frankie's niece Hannah and another sex worker on the night of March 9th. Apparently the group was partying, but at some point, the night took a turn when they were all out, like, driving around, and Frankie accused Kristen of stealing from him. So he, like, dragged her out of the truck they were in, beat her, he pulled her into a canal where Hannah Held kristin underwater until she stopped moving. Tracy apparently took investigators on the route that the group drove that night and everything. So they were confident enough in her story to make these arrests. Well, then tracy gets charged as an accessory after the fact. Now, later on, a conflicting story starts to bubble up, One that says kristen's murder took place in frankie's brother's camper after he got mad that kristen refused his sexual advances and that frankie forced tracy to hold kristen's head down in a bucket of water. Like, there are elements that are the same, but, like, pretty big pieces that change. Police don't know which story is the more accurate one, but the consensus seems to be that frankie was the ringleader and that hannah and tracy were involved to varying degrees. Except a lot like the story we have with ernestine's case. We only have people telling stories. We have no hard proof of anything. And actually, this time, they even lose the story they have as well, because eventually tracy stops cooperating, and she. She walks back her confession, like all versions of it.
- [22:27]
Unknown
Because she got implicated.
- [22:29]
Ashley Flowers
Well, she says that none of it was ever true to begin with. She says that the police wouldn't leave her alone, so she made up a story that she says she heard on the street and, like, padded it with things that she claims investigators led her to say. But because of this, now, like, the d. A. Quietly has to just, like, drop the charges against frankie and hannah because without tracee, they got nothing.
- [22:50]
Unknown
Right.
- [22:51]
Ashley Flowers
Which isn't to say that there was no physical evidence to get, though. So this is so weird. Somehow, some way, a jennings police sergeant. Now, this is a different agency Than the sheriff's office that was investigating.
- [23:05]
Unknown
The sheriff's office is jefferson davis parish.
- [23:07]
Ashley Flowers
Right. So this sergeant from the police department Takes the statement of two women while they're in jail who tell this sergeant that one of the sheriff's lead investigators Assigned to the murders May have gotten rid of evidence in kristen's murder on behalf of none other than frankie richard. Oh, apparently, this investigator was friendly with frankie. And shortly after kristen's murder, he bought the pickup truck that kristin was allegedly riding around in the night she was murdered. And this dude washed it and then flipped it for almost double what he paid. The price doesn't even matter, but he basically washed it and sold it, got rid of it. And listen, there is no proof this investigator bought the truck to do frankie some kind of favor.
- [23:58]
Unknown
But is there proof he bought the truck or the truck? If tracy's story about the murder was.
- [24:06]
Ashley Flowers
Real, there's proof of that. It's not a matter of if this investigator bought and then sold the truck.
- [24:11]
Unknown
There's no proof of the intention or like.
- [24:14]
Ashley Flowers
Right.
- [24:14]
Unknown
Okay. Okay.
- [24:16]
Ashley Flowers
And perhaps even more telling than that, though, is what happened after.
- [24:23]
Britt
Prepare for the crime and investigation event of the new year with the premiere of two groundbreaking new series on A and E. Each week hit the streets of the Big Easy with a dedicated team of detectives as they search for answers and justice in the gripping new series Homicide Squad New Orleans. Then join an elite Mexican task force in their pursuit of American fugitives hiding south of the border in Fugitive Hunters Mexico. Homicide Squad New Orleans premieres Thursday at 9, followed by fugitive hunters Mexico at 10. Part of a crime and investigation event only on A and E. A touch.
- [24:56]
Ashley Flowers
Of formaldehyde, a pinch of acetaldehyde, a splash of acrolin makes the perfectly evil vape cloud. Vaping can expose you to a toxic mix of chemicals. Know the real cost of vapes brought to you by the fda. So the sergeant who takes this statement about all of this shady truck business, he doesn't feel comfortable going up the chain of command with what he's heard about one of the lead investigators. He's worried that it'll go to the wrong person, and then nothing's gonna happen.
- [25:29]
Unknown
Brush em as a rug.
- [25:30]
Ashley Flowers
Mm. So he tells this local PI about the story, and then the PI Goes to the FBI. Well, fast forward a little bit, and the investigator who sold the truck ends up going before an ethics board who determined that his actions were unethical.
- [25:48]
Unknown
Great.
- [25:49]
Ashley Flowers
He's fined $10,000, taken off the murder investigations, which feels like a step in the right direction. Unapproved so far, until the sheriff's department puts him in charge of the evidence room at the sheriff's office. In charge of the. Like, this guy who was unethical for what he did with evidence.
- [26:08]
Unknown
Shut the up.
- [26:10]
Ashley Flowers
I know.
- [26:10]
Unknown
So, okay, just to lay this all out.
- [26:13]
Ashley Flowers
No, you got it.
- [26:15]
Unknown
The guy who sold potential evidence for profit and potentially, like, to help a suspect out and, like, by helping him out. Like, by helping him, like, cover something up.
- [26:29]
Ashley Flowers
Well, I don't know why he did it.
- [26:31]
Unknown
Okay, potentially. Potentially allegedly, maybe.
- [26:34]
Ashley Flowers
He claims that he didn't know it was potential evidence at the time, but.
- [26:38]
Unknown
Now he's in charge of all the evidence. Of all the evidence.
- [26:42]
Ashley Flowers
It's not cool. Oh, and the sergeant who took those two statements and then reported this whole thing, like, and it got to the FBI, he gets fired.
- [26:50]
Unknown
The guy who did the right thing.
- [26:51]
Ashley Flowers
According to a docu series based on Ethan's book. He's arrested and accused of malfeasance and obstruction because he went to a civilian as opposed to following the standard chain of command that may or may not be corrupt.
- [27:05]
Unknown
Okay.
- [27:06]
Ashley Flowers
He is also accused of inappropriately touching one of the female inmates who gave him this information during their initial interview. To be clear, this charge is later dropped, but by that point, like, the damage was done to his career, he pleads guilty to the malfeasance charge, and the obstruction charge is eventually dropped.
- [27:27]
Unknown
Okay. Again, the guy who takes the statement is fired and charged. The guy who did the super sketchy thing is fined and given another job within the department. And also, like, with the evidence, which is what he was accused of.
- [27:40]
Ashley Flowers
Makes sense.
- [27:41]
Unknown
Where's the rule book in all of this? Like, I'm not sure what's right and wrong here. Like, I know what is, but what do they consider is right and wrong here?
- [27:52]
Ashley Flowers
I know. And the argument they have for not firing the guy who sold the truck is like, well, he didn't do anything wrong intentionally. Like, it was just, like, a big oopsie. But, you know, he was getting rid of evidence for a criminal. Like, why would you be getting rid of evidence for a criminal? And again, maybe he didn't know, like, what he was doing, but, like, I.
- [28:11]
Unknown
Guess that's my question exactly. Like, even if you didn't do this intentionally, why Frankie Richard is in custody for things. And you're also, like, getting rid of something that's his.
- [28:24]
Ashley Flowers
So there are a few theories.
- [28:27]
Unknown
Okay.
- [28:28]
Ashley Flowers
One is that Frankie was working as an informant, feeding police info about the drug trade there in town. If you haven't gotten this by now, Frankie's, like, super well connected, like, not a great guy. And Jennings is, like, as small town as it gets. Everyone knows everyone. So having someone like him on your side can be an asset, and he can't be useful. He can't be a useful asset if he's behind bars.
- [28:56]
Unknown
But is he a useful asset if he's just allowed to keep committing whatever crime he wants?
- [29:03]
Ashley Flowers
Well, that's what it feels like to a lot of people in town. He feels untouchable. He feels like he can do whatever he wants and boo. I wish this was new. I was just listening to this podcast called who Killed Jennifer Jett?
- [29:15]
Unknown
Oh, I just started listening to that.
- [29:16]
Ashley Flowers
Very good. Highly recommend. Light spoiler here, but I'll be vague where I left off in the series. The investigator who, like, hosted thinks that police in that case kept letting this one guy off for everything, even murders. He was confessing to because he was an informant. Now that sounds unbelievable, but I guess the way that certain laws work in certain states, the cops who the CIS like report to could be held accountable for the CI's crimes too, because they did stuff like on their watch, right? So it's like you let one thing slide, you know, they're still out there, they kill someone, like, oh, now all of a sudden you're on the hook a little. So you're like actively covering for the CIA to cover your own ass, right? Or equally sinister, you just don't care about the people your CIA is killing. And however, like, you're on the take, money, drugs, promotions, whatever, like that's the thing that's important to you. And here in Jennings, police are definitely rumored to be in on the take. Like I said, there is a massive drug problem in Jennings. Police are making traffic stops all the time, seizing tons of stuff. But where it all goes can get a little fuzzy when it goes to that evidence room, right?
- [30:33]
Unknown
Like, oh yeah, and we know who's in charge of the evidence room.
- [30:36]
Ashley Flowers
There are numerous stories of cops stealing money and drugs from the evidence room. And in the docu series, one of Kristen's friends alleges that a lot of the drugs in town actually come from the cops themselves. And Frankie is at the top of this food chain. So if Frankie's at the top and the cops who are supposed to be policing his criminal activity are rumored to be in on it, who do you go to?
- [31:01]
Unknown
Right.
- [31:02]
Ashley Flowers
There is no one. And the community feels hopeless, but they haven't hit rock bottom yet. On May 29, 2008, another woman is found by a police Officer, no less 23 year old Laconia Brown, or Muggy as most people know her, is found. She is discovered laying on the road fully clothed. She has seven cuts to the front of her neck, along with several cuts behind her right ear. It appears like bleach had been poured over her body to destroy any physical evidence. And Muggy's an interesting player in all of this because she kind of threads our web together even tighter starting from the beginning. So remember our first victim, Loretta? She's rumored to have been with a man named Stymie and two other sex workers when she was last seen alive. Well, Muggy was one of those two sex workers and Stymie is Muggy's boyfriend. There's even a rumor that Muggy and Stymie saw Loretta's body in the canal before that fisherman saw her. Now if we go to victim number two, Ernestine Muggy had been brought in for an interview during the investigation into her death because they ran in the same crowds. Muggy told police that she had heard that Ernestine robbed some people, kind of offering that up as a possible reason for her murder. But according to Ethan Brown's book, some sources, a little unclear, who claim that Muggy witnessed Byron and Lawrence kill Ernestine. And oh, by the way, Lawrence is her cousin.
- [32:38]
Unknown
Could Lawrence and or Byron have wanted to kill her to keep her quiet about Ernestine's homicide?
- [32:44]
Ashley Flowers
I don't think so. We're in 2008. Like Ernestine was killed in 2005. They've been kind of home free for a while at this point. Like, no one's really looking at them hard for her murder.
- [32:53]
Unknown
And they had been, but now they aren't. They're kind of off them.
- [32:56]
Ashley Flowers
And in all of the rumors about who killed Muggy that make their way through the community, Byron and Lawrence, like, I don't think they come up at again. I think it's more of like, okay, there has to be an eye at the center of this hurricane. Who's at the center? That's what they're looking for now. So Stymie's name comes up a lot. Again, he's her boyfriend after all. A couple of other names kind of get thrown out in connection to her case, but all the names that get thrown around, they all have a connection to the same guy, to Frankie Richard, of course, but also on the list of potential suspects with Frankie and Stymie and, you know, other associates is a surprise that probably shouldn't be a surprise by now, the police themselves, and it's someone from the inside who tips Muggy's family off that they should be looking at the police. You see, shortly after her death, Muggy's family is contacted by the Jefferson Davis Parish coroner who tells them that he suspects the police are involved in her death and that he, he says is being followed by sheriff's deputies. Now, he won't say anything else, not who he thinks killed her, not why.
- [34:09]
Unknown
Literally, just I think police killed your daughter and I think I'm in danger. Okay, bye.
- [34:14]
Ashley Flowers
Yep. And if he ever gives them any more details, that's never reported on. But what's interesting is that this isn't the first time that he has contacted a victim's family and told them that he suspects a cover up. Now, this wasn't for any of the cases that I've told you about today. This is totally unrelated other than the fact that I think it shows like the system in our case like that we're operating in. But I think it's important for context. So back in 2007, a sheriff's deputy shot a man in an altercation that escalated far more than it should have. And it was deemed justifiable at the time, with the officer claiming that the man had tried to shoot him. So he shot back in self defense. But this coroner had contacted the family of that man who was shot and told them that the man had no gunpowder residue on his hand, so he couldn't have shot the gun like that officer was saying. Now, the coroner later backtracked that accusation, but obviously there were still some questions. So during the production of the docu series in 2019, an investigator working with the production team wanted to look at the gun that was supposedly fired at police. But wouldn't you know it, it was inexplicably missing from the evidence locker.
- [35:28]
Unknown
Gosh darn evidence.
- [35:30]
Ashley Flowers
I know. So that corner eventually dies of cancer. So he can't answer all of the questions I'm sure that Muggy's family would still like to ask him. And there's nothing in the source material that Muggy's family did anything with what they were initially told. And maybe they couldn't. I mean, he didn't really give them a whole lot to go on. No specific details, no actual proof or evidence that they could use. And again, like, they're up against the system that's working against them.
- [35:56]
Unknown
I was gonna say, I feel like at this point we are kind of back to, like, who do you go to exactly?
- [36:01]
Ashley Flowers
Who do you go to? And the people who are supposed to be protecting you are the ones you need protecting from. So just like the other cases, eventually the investigation into Muggy's death stalls. Summer turns into fall, there's no arrests, no justice for her or any of the other women. And there's this palpable fear that hangs in the air. Everyone is wondering if there's going to be another victim. And on September 11, 2008, they get their answer when a group of hunters finds another body, this time in the woods. The remains are unclothed and according to Ethan's book, nearly skeletal. And while the death is ruled a homicide, investigators can't positively ID the victim, so they have to turn to DNA for that. And that ends up telling them that their victim is 24 year old Crystal Shay Benoit Zeno, who hadn't been seen in a few weeks and she was already skeletal. I mean, we're talking summer in the woods, Louisiana, a lot of animal activity is my assumption. Now, getting her ID took a minute, especially with them having to use DNA. And while they're still trying to figure out who she was, another Jennings resident went missing. 17 year old Brittany Gary. Now, she is actually the cousin of Kristen Lopez, victim number three.
- [37:18]
Unknown
Kristen Gary Lopez.
- [37:21]
Ashley Flowers
Yes. Now, within a couple of weeks, Brittany's body ends up getting found. She's nude, laying face down in tall grass about 10ft off a rural road. Like many of the victims, her body was already in an advanced state of decomposition, possibly out in the elements for days. So that makes it hard to determine precisely what happened. In Ethan's book, it suggested that the cause of death is asphyxia and that she didn't have any other visible injuries like we've seen with some of the others.
- [37:49]
Unknown
And I'm assuming Britney and Crystal fit this sort of pattern. Ran in the same circles, knew the.
- [37:54]
Ashley Flowers
Same people, Both associated with Frankie Richard. Exactly. But there's something that is very interesting about Britney's case specifically. So according to Ethan Brown's book, Britney was last said to have been seen getting into the vehicle of a man named Danny Berry. Now, Ethan later claims in his book that he spoke to someone in law enforcement who claims that Britney was with Danny for two days after she was last seen like drinking and doing drugs. She's with Danny. But that is Deputy Danny Berry. Oh, he works at the Jefferson Davis Parish Jail. Now this dude isn't exactly a squeaky clean, like, no skeletons in the closet type of guy.
- [38:39]
Britt
Prepare for the crime and investigation event of the new year with the premiere of two groundbreaking new series on A and E. Each week hit the streets of the Big Easy with a dedicated team of detectives as they search for answers and justice in the gripping new series Homicide Squad New Orleans. Then join an elite Mexican task force in their pursuit of American fugitives hiding south of the border in Fugitive Hunters Mexico Homicide Squad New Orleans premieres Thursday at 9 followed by fugitive hunters Mexico at 10. Part of a crime and investigation event only on A and E. This is.
- [39:15]
Ashley Flowers
The sound of your ride home with dad after he caught you vaping. Awkward, isn't it? Most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment. Know the real cost of vapes brought to you by the fda? Apparently, Deputy Danny Berry is known around town for picking up sex workers, including some of the other victims. And rumor has it from some of the sex workers in town who have visited his home that he has what is essentially a sex dungeon.
- [40:02]
Unknown
To each their own. As long as everyone's A consenting adult.
- [40:05]
Ashley Flowers
Listen, first of all, if he did pick up Britney, she wasn't an adult. And sure, I agree, like you want your 50 shades of gray room like you do you boo. But this deuce was lined with plastic sheeting. And unless you're hosting like the town jello fight in your basement, like I don't like it. Dexter.
- [40:23]
Unknown
Dexter vibes.
- [40:24]
Ashley Flowers
Yes, but the dungeon is just a rumor though. Like, to be clear, Ethan doesn't name his law enforcement source in the book, but it seems like the allegations levied against Danny Barry are at least taken semi seriously. Because according to the docu series, Danny's interviewed a few months after Britney's body is found. Now the interview lasted only like 15, 20 minutes and he didn't tell them anything incriminating during it. He said, like he can sleep fine at night because he didn't do anything. Didn't even know Britney. Now Danny has never named an official suspect by police in Britney's murder or any of the homicides for that matter, despite Frankie Richard later alleging that Danny was responsible for for all of them. Frankie also says that all of the bodies were found within a three mile radius of Danny's home.
- [41:17]
Unknown
Is that even true?
- [41:19]
Ashley Flowers
So I don't think so. Like, not if all the reporting is accurate. And to be clear, Frankie could be saying all of that because he wants people off his back. Right after Britney's body is found, Jennings residents are tired. Tired of finding their women dead, tired of law enforcement seeming to look the other way. And they make enough noise that a multi agency task force ends up getting formed. This task force is made up of other sheriff's offices, state police, the attorney general's office and the FBI.
- [41:48]
Unknown
So some major third parties.
- [41:50]
Ashley Flowers
Yes. And you would think that this new multi agency task force like propels this thing forward essentially with outside influences like the FBI being on board, but it doesn't. The sheriff's office is actually the one who oversees the task force. Question mark. Wait, you would think the FBI would like. Or any of the outside entities. Yeah, and as you can imagine, like this doesn't go well with literally anyone. So while not a whole lot is happening with the task force, Frankie Richard is again arrested in 2009, this time in connection to like this theft ring that's going on. His house gets raided and $3,500 in cash is taken and then subsequently goes missing from evidence. So without that money, the case against Frankie falls apart, the charges are dropped, and the one sheriff's deputy is fired for her suspected role in the theft, which yet again causes allegations of police corruption. Like, that's when everyone starts talking about it again.
- [42:56]
Unknown
I mean, I feel like there's proof of what people saying. Like, I feel like there's proof that it's true. And hi, maybe we do need someone on the outside in charge of all of this.
- [43:07]
Ashley Flowers
Yes, but no one takes charge in time. According to the daily advertiser, on August 19, seven victims becomes eight. A maintenance crew doing some mowing along I10 in neighboring Acadia Parish discovers yet another young woman's body just 10 miles away from Jennings. But the victim is a Jennings local, 26 year old Nicole Guillory. While there are some minor cuts on Nicole's face and above her eye, the coroner concludes that she most likely died from asphyxia roughly two days before she was found. And according to her family, Nicole was afraid in the months and possibly even years leading up to her death. Not just because other sex workers were turning up dead, but because she knew a lot of them and was possibly a witness to at least one of the murders. Because guess what? Just like how Muggy was one of the two sex workers with victim number one, Loretta. Like the last people she was seen with before she died? Well, lo and behold, Nicole was the other one. And she had apparently told her friends and family that she watched Stymie again, Muggy's boyfriend kill Loretta.
- [44:20]
Unknown
This is like same as the Muggy thing, though, if someone wanted to silence her, they waited so long to do it.
- [44:27]
Ashley Flowers
No, I agree. I don't think Stymie is ever seriously considered as a suspect in her death, but I don't think anyone really is. But there are some odd connections Nicole has with the rest of the Jeff Davis 8 that I haven't really talked about yet. So another common thread in this web that we have, other than Frankie Richard, is Nicole's cousin slash warden of the Jefferson Davis Parish Jail, this guy named Terry Guillory.
- [44:56]
Unknown
That would be the same jail where Dan Danny worked.
- [45:00]
Ashley Flowers
Yup.
- [45:01]
Unknown
Interesting.
- [45:02]
Ashley Flowers
Now Terry's name first pops up with Loretta, victim number one. Literally just hours before her body was found. Loretta's mom claims that Terry went to her house and asked her where Loretta was. She said, you know, I don't know. And Terry's response was that he thought she was missing, but. Except you got it. That's weird, because nobody knew that she had vanished until her body was found.
- [45:27]
Unknown
Right.
- [45:28]
Ashley Flowers
Now, Terri and Loretta definitely knew each other, like, intimately. Allegedly. One of Loretta's former cellmates at the jail said that she witnessed Terry and Loretta having sex during one of the times that Loretta was incarcerate, which, no.
- [45:42]
Unknown
Matter which way you slice it, is illegal because inmates can't consent to having sex with an officer.
- [45:47]
Ashley Flowers
Correct. So there is connection number one to victim number one. He also pops back up with Crystal Zeno, victim number six. So she made a phone call right before she vanished to Terry. I'm not sure what they talked about. And after that, she was allegedly seen getting into a white truck with a few guys who were known associates of Frankie Richard. So Terry wasn't the first on the list of potential suspects for that reason alone in that case. But, like, something he said after Crystal's body was found was eerily similar to what he told Loretta's mom. So after Crystal's remains were discovered, but before she was identified, he went to Crystal's mom and said that he knew the body they found was her daughter. And she obviously asked him, like, how do you know that? Yeah. And he says that he recognized a tattoo on this, like, quote, intimate part of her body.
- [46:43]
Unknown
So how'd he know that tattoo was there?
- [46:46]
Ashley Flowers
That's the weird part, Right? Like, I don't. And I don't even know what the tattoo was of or where exactly it was. But her mom later says the only way he would have known it was there is if he'd been intimate with her. And again, Crystal, much like Loretta, wasn't even reported missing yet. Terry seems to know a lot more than everyone else. And allegedly, during this conversation with Crystal's mother, Terry said that he didn't kill her.
- [47:11]
Unknown
Like, by the way, did anyone suggest that. No.
- [47:15]
Ashley Flowers
Dude just, like, offered up that information randomly, which. That left Crystal's mom feeling, like, all sorts of, like, not right about it.
- [47:22]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [47:23]
Ashley Flowers
Then there's this relationship with another victim, which is a little less concrete, but he's got this reputation around town for helping the local sex workers out when they get in trouble. Like, they get arrested, they get in a bind, they call Terry, and Terry will get them out for information in return. All eight of the victims were, at one point or another, giving police information on the happenings in Jennings. Like, in the criminal underworld. Known fact, like, nobody's questioning that. And Terry was one of the people who had built out this network of informants, which included some, if not all, of the Jeff Davis 8.
- [48:01]
Unknown
So it is possible that he would hear things first. Right. Like, knowing Loretta was missing or that Crystal had been killed.
- [48:08]
Ashley Flowers
I mean, it's definitely a possibility. Just like Danny, Terry himself isn't squeaky clean. So here you Go. Remember that other case that I talked about where the coroner tried to blow the whistle, but where, like, the guy got shot? Okay, so the deputy who fired the shot that killed the man was Terry Guillory.
- [48:25]
Unknown
What?
- [48:25]
Ashley Flowers
And then remember when Frankie got in trouble, but then, like, the money went missing, so the charges got dropped?
- [48:31]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [48:31]
Ashley Flowers
Okay, so the deputy that got fired for maybe being connected to that, the money going missing, whatever. That's Terry's wife. Oh. And as the warden of the jail, Terry's eventually accused by task force witnesses of running it basically like a brothel. Or at least it's being run like a brothel by other officers who he's in charge of. Like, officers can come in, sexually assault inmates and get away scot free. And while he's never officially disciplined for anything, a civil suit is filed against a guard under Terry's command. So in one of the few steps forward that the task force actually makes, Sheriff Ricky Edwards orders that all of the investigators on this case should submit DNA samples. This happens in 2009, so there's DNA. So here's the thing. I don't know. Nothing has been stated publicly about what they would compare this to or if there's ever a sample in any of the cases that they've collected that they have a profile against. Also, something they've never said is, like, what they do with these samples. Oh, so, like, whatever happens after, they're like, hey, everyone needs to give us their DNA. It's been kept a secret. Literally nothing is released about the results. I'd like to assume if there was a match, that there would be an arrest, but I don't know.
- [49:53]
Unknown
And I'd like to assume that if there were no matches, we'd also want to say that part out loud, too, right?
- [49:59]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. Lots of silence coming from that side. But after everyone gets swabbed for DNA, what's so interesting is that the murders just stopped. Oh, the task force stops investigating eventually. Sheriffs come and go. Rumors still fly. Accusations are still levied against people. I mean, one rumor has it that the murders were never properly investigated because a congressman had spent time at the Boudreaux Inn, where many of the women worked out of. And basically, like, investigating the deaths might make things messy for someone in a public office. And I think that's, like, the overarching theme of all of this. Like, the apathy. Were all of these women victims of the same killer? I don't know. In Ethan's book, he describes how rare it is for victims of a serial killer to all know each Other. Now, the caveat of that is, in a town like Jennings, everyone does know everyone. So if there was a serial killer and he's only operating in one area.
- [50:58]
Unknown
The chances are really high that his victims are going to know each other.
- [51:00]
Ashley Flowers
Probably know each other. Right. But it's also possible that these women were victims of separate killers. I mean, we have Stymie, who was allegedly with Loretta the night she died. Ethan Brown states in his book that he thinks Stymie was the one who killed her. He also is on the list of people who may have killed Muggy and Nicole. But any secrets that he might have kept, he took to his grave because he died in 2017. And then you have Dani Berry. His name pops up when Brittany's body is found. And he was allegedly with her for two days after anyone last saw her. Remember, we got Frankie accusing him of killing all of the women. Now Danny's not around anymore either. He died of cancer in 2010. And if you're keeping track, that is a year after Nicole, the final victim. There's a man everyone in town seems to be connected to as well, and the guy who pointed his finger at a lot of other people, and that's Frankie Richard, who at one point had most of the Jeff Davis eight women working for him. He was one of the last people who saw Loretta and Whitney. He was accused of killing Kristen. But to be clear, Frankie has always claimed his innocence, and he died in 2020, so he's not around to ask anymore. I also think it's worth mentioning Terry Guillory here as jail warden, cousin of victim number eight, Nicole. And he definitely spoke with Crystal the night that she vanished. And then there's those weird conversations with Loretta and Crystal's moms at, like, were just bizarre.
- [52:32]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [52:33]
Ashley Flowers
He's never been named a suspect. And at the very minimum, it's like maybe he just has weird connections to this case. Like, we actually. He's the one person who's still alive. We tried to reach him for comment. He's still working in law enforcement. He's. He's actually. He's not in Jennings anymore. He's in a town over. So we left a message for his colleagues, but, like, he never called us back. And look, maybe it's not any of them. I mean, there are rabbit holes upon rabbit holes that you can go down in this story if you want to deep dive. Like, I didn't even get into the guy. Like, that got some attention around Whitney's case. Like, her body was found by a man named Jamie who claimed that he saw her body on the road from where he was driving past, like, on a nearby highway. It was like half a mile away, literally. It's physically not possible based on where he said he was. So that's weird. And another man actually comes forward and says that Jamie's, like, straight up lying. According to this witness, he says that he was out driving the back roads with Jamie the night before, like, before she was quote, unquote found. And before Whitney's body even lit up under the headlights while they're driving, Jamie was already, like, swerving out of the way to avoid her. So what does that mean? Like, who is he connected to in the web of all of this? I even tried looking to see if there were any active serial killers, like, in the relative vicinity of Jennings around 2005 to 2009. But all the known ones were either caught before Loretta's death, our first victim, or they targeted men. So either there is someone out there who hasn't been caught, or there are several people who are responsible for all eight deaths. And at least as of right now, that's the prevailing school of thought. A new sheriff of Jefferson Davis Parish was recently elected in 2024. His name is Kyle Mears. And we tried reaching out to him, too, but as of the recording of this episode, he hasn't called or emailed us back. But back when he was running for sheriff, he talked about bringing justice to all eight murder victims, and he called them all murder victims. He promised to keep the cases open and have the evidence tested again. What evidence? I don't know, but he made a lot of promises that I hope he keeps and delivers on. The longer these cases go unsolved, the harder it's going to be to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But secrets like this don't stay secrets forever. Someone knows what happened to these women, because that's just the nature of a small town. Everyone knows everyone's business. And it just takes the right person or the right people to come forward and listen. That might be you. So if you have any information about the deaths of Loretta Chesson, Ernestine Patterson, Kristen Lopez, Whitney Dubois, Crystal Zeno, Laconia Muggy Brown, Brittney Gary, or Nicole Guillory, you can call the Jefferson Davis Parish Sheriff's office at 337-275-8188 or you can contact them online at jdpso.org crimet. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.
- [55:58]
Unknown
And you can follow us on Instagram @crimejunkiepodcast.
- [56:01]
Ashley Flowers
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around because we have some good to share with you. All right, Give me some good. My gal.
- [56:31]
Unknown
Okay, this one is great. It's kind of made me giggle. It's a scary situation that actually turned into something not so scary and kind of a learning experience too. So I liked it. I wanted to come on and tell you. First, thank you for telling the stories of the unheard. They need to be told. Second, thank you for retelling stories of survivors and giving us enough life rules to write a book on. However, one of these life rules actually saved my life. Kind of. I went to a store on a highway. It is a huge discount store and draws crowds of all kinds. It was a rainy day and I was by myself. I put my headphones in and turned on Crime Junkie to go thrifting in the rain. It's just such a vibe. However, when I went back to the car, I loaded my stuff, got in the car and drove off. I looked in the rearview mirror to merge lanes and that's when I saw it. A tag. I was so scared. It was on the back window. A black object that wasn't meant to to be there. My stomach dropped. The blood ran out of my face. And then I noticed a vehicle behind me. When I turned, they turned. This is when my radar went on. I started looking at the roads I was on. I was watching the time I called my husband who had my kids. I told him what happened and then told him when I turned onto a new road. This was before we knew about life. 360 of course. The person behind me turned. We traveled 26 miles shut up like this. Each turn closer to home. More dread of getting out of the car.
- [58:07]
Ashley Flowers
I don't go home.
- [58:08]
Unknown
Was terrified. But kept it together and marked each location and the time I turned. I even made my husband write it down. It was scary.
- [58:17]
Ashley Flowers
Call the police. Hang up on your husband.
- [58:20]
Unknown
Two more turns to home.
- [58:22]
Ashley Flowers
Don't go home.
- [58:23]
Unknown
I decided to go out to the farm where his parents lived. So these people didn't know where I lived.
- [58:28]
Ashley Flowers
But they're like in this rural area, I assume.
- [58:30]
Unknown
Yeah. Where I live, my dogs, my family lived. I had a newborn and a 2 year old at the time. I couldn't do it. My husband met me there. He was outside waiting for me. One more turn towards the farm. The car behind me turned on a side road. That's when I turned in, ran into the house. This was the fastest, fastest I have ever ran. My husband and father in law went out to look at the car. They come back in laughing. I was in tears. They proceeded to tell me that the back wiper cover had come undone at the time it was sticking up which made it look like there was a black tag. Then the car that was following me, a van carrying Amish folks home from a shopping trip because the driver stopped by and talk to my father in law because they knew each other. Now we make jokes about it but I'm thankful that I was able to run a practice run because you never know when the real time comes. Because of this, we became fam club members shortly after created if I go missing folders, got Life360 and then fixed my car.
- [59:38]
Ashley Flowers
Be prepared. Paranoid.
- [59:39]
Unknown
Thank you Ashley and Britt.
- [59:40]
Ashley Flowers
Oh my God, I love it. So yeah, keep an eye on who's following you. Keep an eye on your rearview mirror. Also, this is my new life rule. Don't call your husband, call the police.
- [59:49]
Unknown
I mean we talked about this a couple times. I thought Justin went missing and I called.
- [59:53]
Ashley Flowers
You called me. You called me.
- [59:55]
Unknown
We searched the house and it was a car that looked just like his parked in front of our car when he was not home. So I like this story.
- [60:08]
Ashley Flowers
Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
- [60:17]
Britt
Prepare for the crime and investigation event of the new year with the premiere of two groundbreaking new series on A and E. Each week hit the streets of the Big Easy with a dedicated team of detectives as they search for answers and justice in the gripping new series Homicide Squad New Orleans. Then join an elite Mexican task force in their pursuit of American fugitives hiding south of the border in Fugitive Hunters Mexico Homicide Squad New Orleans premieres Thursday at 9, followed by fugitive hunters Mexico at 10. Part of a crime and investigation event only on A and E. Your word is formaldehyde.
- [60:52]
Unknown
Can you use it in a sentence?
- [60:54]
Britt
As you're sitting in your basement, you.
- [60:55]
Ashley Flowers
Hit your vape, but then your mom walks in, freaks out and starts listing the toxic chemicals you could be inhaling into your body.
- [61:02]
Britt
Like formaldehyde, which she singles out because.
- [61:05]
Ashley Flowers
It'S the same chemical used to preserve.
- [61:07]
Britt
Your Uncle Rico's funky smelling taxidermied fox. Formaldehyde vaping can expose you to toxic chemicals like formaldehyde. No need to spell it out any more than that.
- [61:17]
Ashley Flowers
Brought to you by the Real Cost and fda.