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INFAMOUS: University of Idaho Murders
01:25:32
Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, four University of Idaho students in their 20s, were brutally murdered inside their off-campus home in the early morning hours on November 13, 2022. Two surviving roommates and a heartwrenching 911 call led police to discover the friends stabbed to death inside the three-story house at 1122 King Road. The safe place that once rang with parties, TikTok dances and laughter, was eerily silenced, surrounded by a nationwide media circus and sealed with crime scene tape.
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- [00:01]
Ashley Flowers
The wilderness is meant to be a place of peace, but for some it became the setting of tragedy. The podcast Park Predators explores true stories of people who encountered danger where they least expected it, deep in forests, along remote trails or while camping under the stars. Each episode examines a different case with the same careful research and storytelling you get here on CrimeJunkie. You can start listening to Park Predators now, wherever you get your podcasts. Torrid believes that every woman gets to show up in great clothes, which is why they are the on trend fashion brand for women sizes 10 through 30. From life changing jeans to bras that actually fit, Torrid is obsessed with giving you everything you need to look and feel your best and every single day. Shop torrid.com and use promo code crimejunkie for 40% off your first online order. Terms and conditions will apply. Void where prohibited. Brought to you by the Capital One VentureX card. If you love to travel, the Capital One Venture X card is perfect for you. Earn unlimited double miles on your purchases and turn them into extraordinary travel. Enjoy premium benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book through Capital One Travel and get access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details. Life is full of plot twists, but like any good mystery, having the right people to help makes a difference. Think of a State Farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you in your search for coverage. And with so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you. Go online@statefarm.com or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hi crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
- [02:04]
Britt
And I'm Britt.
- [02:05]
Ashley Flowers
And the story I have for you today is one I know you've heard of. It was a case that made every news station nationally at some point and post Karen Reid we were all gearing up for this trial to dominate public attention all over again. But less than two weeks ago, there was a shocking turn of events. Just a month and a half out from trial, the defendant accepted a plea deal, agreeing to plead guilty in exchange for the death penalty being taken off the table. And it's a move that has the public, and more importantly, the victim's families split. Some people are happy that he's accepting responsibility without dragging everyone through a spectacle at the expense of taxpayers. But others are frustrated because the trial was their chance at possibly getting an answer to the one question that has mystified a nation. Why now? There's a gag order still in place, but plenty of clues have been dropped along the way and we're going to make our best attempt at breaking down this complicated case for you to try and get at that answer. Why did Bryan Kohberger kill four students at the University of Idaho? SA it's around 4am on Nov. 13, 2022, when Dylan Mortensen wakes up to some noises in her off campus home at 1122 King Road. Now she'd been out drinking the night before, so she's still a bit buzzed and her understanding of what's going on is a little hazy, but it sounds like maybe a different roommate who stays in the room on the floor above her is like up playing with her dog or something. But as she gets her bearings a little bit, she thinks she hears that roommate Kaylee Goncalves say, there's someone here. So Dylan gets out of bed, cracks her door to peek out, but she doesn't see anything and she tries to shake it off, close her door, go back to bed, probably telling herself like the bumps in the night are nothing, but she still hears noises. And then she hears crying, except it's not coming from Kaylee's room upstairs. It sounds like it's coming from a room on her floor, her other roommates, Zanna Kernodles. And then she hears what sounds like a voice, a man's voice, saying it's okay, I'm going to help you now. She tries looking out her door another time, only to see the same empty, dark hallway, but she can't ignore whatever sixth sense is tugging her to her door to check just one more time, and I can almost imagine it feeling like this amorphous energy getting closer and closer as she opens her door once more, until all of a sudden that thing she was sensing has a form right in front of her is a man dressed in all black with a mask covering his mouth and nose when the only thing visible are his eyes beneath bushy eyebrows and they're looking directly at her. Now she knows this guy has seen her, but he doesn't say a word and he doesn't move toward her. He just walks toward the sliding glass door that leads out the home's back patio. And I have no idea what could have been going through Dylan's mind in that moment, what stories she was trying to tell herself, the way she probably tried to discredit her own eyes and ears. She was probably confused, probably afraid, drunk on top of it all, and human, telling herself the Things we all do. Bad things happen to other people. Not me. Nevertheless, in the instant that this guy moves past her, she locks herself inside her room and immediately starts trying to call her roommates, which there were what.
- [06:07]
Britt
Like five of them total living in the house then?
- [06:11]
Ashley Flowers
Technically, four girls who lived there. Dylan, Zanna, then Bethany Funk and Madison Mogan, or Maddy, as they called her. But it wasn't uncommon for other people to be there or, like, staying the night, like Zanna's boyfriend, Ethan Chapin. And Kaylee, who is always referred to as a roommate because she was shortly before this. But she had actually just moved out because she was graduating early. She was only there visiting her best friend Maddy that weekend, but they hadn't filled her room yet. So there still is a Kaylee's room.
- [06:42]
Britt
I guess I didn't realize that I know.
- [06:44]
Ashley Flowers
So I don't think Dylan knew exactly who was even in the house that morning. So she starts calling her roommates one by one. And I'm not sure why, but actually her roommate Bethany had called Dylan a few minutes earlier. Maybe she heard something in the house too, and wanted to check in with Dylan. But Dylan didn't answer that one. She's like, calling around one by one. The phone's ringing and ringing and ringing. None of the roommates are answering. So finally, Dylan does call Bethany back. Bethany picks up. She's at home, too. And I don't know what they talk about for the 41 seconds that call is logged. But when it ends, Dylan starts shooting off texts to Bethany starting at 4:22am.
- [07:22]
Britt
And was Bethany's room on her? Her same floor or a different one?
- [07:26]
Ashley Flowers
So this house has three floors. So the front door to the home is technically in the basement. That's where Bethany's room is. And then on the second level, you have Zanna and Dylan's rooms. And then on the third were Maddie and Kaylee.
- [07:39]
Britt
Okay, I think I have it.
- [07:40]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. So she is firing off text after text to Bethany, and she's telling her what she saw, what she heard, that no one else is answering. She's super confused, really freaked out. And she probably has at least some wave of relief, the fact that, like, she's getting ahold of Bethany, Bethany is at least responding. And Bethany says, come to my room. This is over text run. Now, Dylan doesn't even know if that guy is still there or if he's gone. But she bolts to the basement. And the pair lock themselves in Bethany's room. And they keep trying other roommates unsuccessfully, until they eventually both Fall asleep.
- [08:12]
Britt
And I know so many people had just a field day with this early on. Like they couldn't wrap their heads around why neither of these girls would just call the police.
- [08:21]
Ashley Flowers
I know. And listen, I'll admit, early on I had a hard time wrapping my brain around it too. But empathy, I think, is something you have to train into yourself, work at constantly. So before you go writing the comment or like posting the thing, you gotta like, sit back, make sure you take in the facts. Put yourself in someone else's shoes too, man. Because like, these are technically adults, right? Like in terms of being able to vote or get drafted for war. But Bethany and Dylan were both 21. And I thought I was invincible then. Like, it was literally not in my realm of possible thinking that I would ever in a million bazillion years be at the center of what would become one of the biggest true crime cases in the nation, probably for a generation. Strange man, in my house or not, you think of every other possible scenario under the sun before the worst one. And I mean, it was a Saturday night in college. The university had just had this big football game. Maybe someone could have had a guest over.
- [09:16]
Britt
Well, and on top of that, they're young women. As women, we're constantly being told like we're overreacting, don't make such a big deal about things.
- [09:24]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, and your other roommate is okay. Whoever this was, he walked right past. You didn't even flinch. So maybe everyone else is just sleeping after all. It's almost 4:30 in the morning now. Dylan and Bethany wake up the next morning. They start like getting on their phones. Dylan is on social media a bit, but there is still enough fear lingering that even in the daylight they don't want to just go roaming the house alone. I know Dylan texts her dad more than once that morning. Bethany calls her parents more than once and I'm not exactly sure why they called or if their parents picked up. I'm thinking maybe they called to tell them that they thought something was off about the night before. But eventually Dylan calls her friend Emily, telling her that they think something weird happened last night and she asks her to come over and help and bring her boyfriend. They want to figure out why the housemates aren't responding. So Emily says, yeah, fine, I'll come over. She brings her boyfriend, Hunter, and a roommate, Josie, too. But honestly, they're not taking it too seriously because apparently Dylan was one to scare easily. And she'd been freaked out before in the house, which when I talk about sitting back and waiting for the facts.
- [10:34]
Britt
Yeah, I never knew that piece.
- [10:36]
Ashley Flowers
Same. So she's been freaked out before and before everything was fine. This time was going to be different though. Dylan and Bethany are on the bottom floor waiting for them when their friends arrive. And they all decide that Hunter is going to lead the way. He's already in Zanna's room by the time Emily's reaching the second floor. According to the Amazon docu series, one night in Idaho, Emily says that she just sees Hunter like turn around, come toward her and he's like pushing her out of the house. And he's like, call 91 1, tell them there is an unconscious person. And I give him a ton of credit because even while trying to process what it was he just walked into, which was far more than just an unconscious person, he was still thinking about how to protect everyone else from what he just saw. So it is 11:55am When Dylan calls 911. Here are parts of that call.
- [11:32]
C
911, location of your emergency. Hi. Something is happening. Something happened in our house. We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 11:22. What is the rest of the address? Oh, Kingston Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. I'll talk to you guys.
- [12:02]
Ashley Flowers
We're.
- [12:04]
C
We live at the white. So we're next to them. And tell me exactly what's going on. One of our. One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some men in their house last night? Yes. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4:00am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, you gotta go check. Hello? Okay, I need someone to stop passing the phone around because I've talked to four different people. Sorry, they just gave me the phone. Is she breathing? Hello? Is she breathing? No. Okay.
- [13:03]
Ashley Flowers
The Moscow Police Department arrives on the scene pretty quickly and already there's a crowd gathering outside the house. There's Dylan, Bethany, their friends who they called, and some more students who know the crew. They're all standing by waiting to hear that everything's okay. But as we know, police don't find an unconscious woman. What? They see the scene that Hunter saw is very bloody. According to a new book that we got access to, the Idaho Four by James Patterson and Vicki Ward, which had a ton of information about this case, Zanna and Ethan are found together in her room on the second floor. It looks like Zanna was attacked right at the door of her room. Like, she is laying on the ground at her door. Maybe she'd been, like, backing up into the room when she was attacked, I don't know. But she had stab wounds from some kind of what they call an edged weapon. And she clearly tried to protect herself from the attacker's weapon because her fingers are nearly severed. The Idaho four book says that Ethan is laying on the bed behind her and he's been stabbed, too. But there have been rumors that I have seen that his legs were also, like. The word that keeps getting used is carved. And this isn't stated in the affidavit that I've seen, but there is a portion of that document where they're talking about finding Ethan. And it's been redacted. And it is speculated that is where that detail is discussed or where this comes from. But again, no one has gone on record stating that as fact.
- [14:33]
Britt
Right. And were both of them clothed?
- [14:36]
Ashley Flowers
I think so. Nothing in any of the records says anything about them being undressed or anything like that.
- [14:42]
Britt
Okay.
- [14:43]
Ashley Flowers
Now, on the third floor of the house, police check Kaylee's room, but only her dog is in there. He's unharmed. But it's in Maddy's room where they find the two best friends laying together, sharing a bed, which probably wasn't uncommon since they'd been inseparable since childhood. Both have been stabbed. And in an interview with ABC News, Kaylee's mother, Christy, says that Kaylee was found, like, sitting up and had defensive wounds. And on the family's Facebook page, they also say that she had been beaten in the face and head, so she likely fought for her life.
- [15:17]
Britt
So then did he attack Maddie first, like, while they were still sleeping?
- [15:21]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know that for sure. Like, we only know about Kaylee's wounds because her family has talked about them publicly. No one has ever spoken about Maddy's wounds in detail, so she might very well have them, too. Maybe not. I can't say one way or another. All I know is that according to a press release from the Moscow police, quote, some, but not all of them have defensive wounds. And they did say that they believed that they were all asleep when the killer entered the home.
- [15:47]
Britt
And the two of them in this room were both clothed, too.
- [15:52]
Ashley Flowers
There's nothing in any of the documents about them being undressed.
- [15:55]
Britt
Okay. Same as before?
- [15:56]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. And it doesn't seem like the killer spent any time with them, so right away this is feeling more like a blitz attack more than anything else. No one is bound, no one has been sexually assaulted, nothing appears to have been staged or taken. But something was left behind by the killer, seemingly unintentionally, a tan leather knife sheath. And finding that knife sheath marked the beginning of the end for the killer. With Wisp, you can get the sexual health care you need same day without stepping foot in a doctor's office. With Wisp privately message a healthcare provider online and get same day prescriptions for BV, yeast infections, UTIs, STIs, herpes, cold sores, birth control, emergency contraception and more. You can get your medication delivered discreetly to your home for free in all 50 states or sent to your local pharmacy to pick up within three hours or less. You can now also test for STIs from the comfort of your home with Wisp's diagnostic testing kits. Each kit comes with a test and a consultation trusted by over 1.5 million patients. Try Wisp for yourself and see how they're changing the game. For access to Women's Health, take 15% off your first order with the code crime15only@hellowisp.com that's hello wisp.com Prescription products require a consultation with a healthcare provider and medications are available if medically appropriate. Must be 18 or older. Restrictions apply. See website for details.
- [17:29]
Britt
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- [18:35]
Ashley Flowers
The knife itself, a 7 inch blade, was never found inside the house or outside either when they searched the perimeter of the home and the trash out on the street. But police and the pathologist would later become confident that some, if not all of the victim's wounds were caused by, if not that specific knife, one a lot like it.
- [18:55]
Britt
And are these types of knives common?
- [18:57]
Ashley Flowers
I mean, ish. Like they're used by the military, they're used by hunters, knife enthusiasts, like that sort of thing.
- [19:03]
Britt
They're common among people who use knives, yeah.
- [19:05]
Ashley Flowers
But definitely not something that like any of these kids in this house were known to have. So they do think that the killer brought this with him, but then actually took the knife itself back with him. Now, investigators sent a good amount of evidence from the house off to the lab, including fingernail clippings, hair. But the major things they note is that there was a shoe print outside of Dylan's door that likely came from a vans style shoe. And they found this. It was invisible to the naked eye, I think, cause they used this dye that reacts to body fluid or blood to get this print. So it wasn't like a ton of blood or fluid or whatever. But this print is right in alignment with where Dylan said that she saw the masked man. So they feel like this is his. They also find a blood spot on the handrail between the first and second floor. And then they find a black glove outside the home. Now, police note that there is no sign of forced entry into the home, but that doesn't mean that this masked man was let in. Because they learned that he walked in through the second floor glass sliding door, the very one that he was heading toward after he passed Dylan. So it sounds like maybe that had been left unlocked. And listen, Moscow is considered a rural college town, one where at least before November of 2022, it wasn't a big deal to not lock your doors, according to the One Night in Idaho docuseries.
- [20:25]
Britt
But even then you have to be thinking that the killer knew one. Maybe all of them knew that the door was sometimes left unlocked, or at the very minimum knew enough about the kind of vibe towards safety that he knew he could get in. I would think he would have cased the place first though.
- [20:45]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, and I was gonna say even like the very nature of this crime feels personal, like it feels targeted. And they don't think that this guy was just looking for any house to walk into that night. Like he was looking for that house or maybe more specifically someone in that house.
- [21:01]
Britt
Yeah, the fact that he left two of them alive in the house makes you think it was about one or more of the four who were attacked, right?
- [21:08]
Ashley Flowers
Exactly. Yeah, but and by the way, at this point, those two survivors, they still don't know what's fully going on. Right. Or even the extent of it. Like all they know is what they told 911. And this is kind of the wild part to me. So about an hour after police initially showed up, the University of Idaho blasts what they call a vandal alert out to the students cell phones. Think of it like a safety announcement. It says that Moscow PD is investigating a homicide on King Road near the campus. Everyone should stay away from the area and shelter in place. And then another vandal alert comes through. This one says that police are investigating the deaths of four people. And that is how Maddie, Zanna, Ethan and Kaylee's friends who are sitting outside the house still waiting for any news about what's happening inside. That is how they learn that their friends were killed.
- [21:57]
Britt
God, imagine going from thinking your friends passed out to realizing that four of your friends have been murdered. Murdered and finding out from a text message blast from your school.
- [22:09]
Ashley Flowers
I can't. I don't know how they react in that moment or what the scene outside of the house looks like that afternoon as that news not just rippled through the crowd, but like came crashing down all at once. Like it had to have been chaotic. Which might be why police start making some moves quickly. Like they need to regain control of the situation. Bethany and Dylan and some of the other students go to the police station to get four formal statements taken. And police officially released the names of the students who were killed. 21 year old Kaylee Gonzalez, 21 year old Maddie Mogan, 20 year old Zanna Kernodle and 20 year old Ethan Chapin. But try as they might, control was a hard thing to have. Day one reporters begin flooding to the area while many of the students head out because they're understandably scared. Like the university eventually tells students they can attend class remotely. And the reporting that is coming out at this point doesn't have a ton of new information. Like no one knew much in those early days. Like it had to have been terrifying. But that void of information just drove wild speculation. I mean, people online are full on blaming Dylan and Bethany for the murders, like at this point already. And police do try to like grab onto the reins again by holding a press Conference. They say that they believe this was an isolated, targeted attack on the students. But then they also acknowledge that they don't have a suspect, and they can't say that there's no threat to the community. And they just ask the community to remain vigilant, which, with that, I'd be.
- [23:47]
Britt
Leaving the school too.
- [23:48]
Ashley Flowers
So many people did. Which, like, yes, I'm out. I'm pulling my kids out for damn sure. Yeah, safety first. But this only made things harder for police because these are also the people that police need to be questioning. And now they're no longer in, like, one concentrated place. Right.
- [24:04]
Britt
They're going everywhere. And this is also probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest case that's ever hit this department.
- [24:11]
Ashley Flowers
Oh. And they. And they know it too. Like, they're not playing the ego game here. They're bringing in help pretty quickly from, like, a local county sheriff's office, from the FBI. And in doing so, they are starting to piece together what everyone in the King Road house was doing on the night of the murders. Right. Like, divide and conquer. But God bless Kaylee's sister. She was not about to just, like, leave it to police to figure out. She was apparently getting zero details from police, just that her sister was gone. The end. So she's like, eff it. She rolled up her sleeves and went to work herself. She told CBS News that she got into her sister's call log and started calling everyone in there. And she found out that her sister went to this local bar called the Corner Club. Then she got a ride to this food truck, and her sister talked to a driver who gave them that ride there, and he told her that the food truck, this place known as the grub truck, had a camera. And so she's actually the one who got that video footage. I feel like we all saw this video footage early on. I didn't realize she got that she. But she saw it first. She sees her sister and Maddie together on the camera, and she sees them, you know, get their food or whatever, then get into this car together, but alone, just the two of them. And police confirm that the driver took them home. He dropped them off at the house at around 1:56am God bless sisters, man. Listen, if this isn't reason enough for everyone to get their if I go missing folders in order, I don't know what is. Like, make it easy on your sister, your mother, your father, your friend. Like, they're gonna need to get your call logs and text in a time of emergency. So back to the Timeline according to the Idaho four book. Dylan tells police that she heard Kaylee and Maddie chatting in the living room and then she heard them walk up to the third floor before she fell asleep. She didn't hear Ethan and Zanna get home, though, at 1:45. But based on what Bethany told police, they know that's when they got back from hanging out at Ethan's frat house on campus. So we've got everyone known to be back at the house by 2am but they're not all sleeping just yet. There is still activity on Kaylee and Maddie's cell phones, though it does start to die down as the hours tick by. By 4am it seems like all the housemates are in their room. And Zanna receives a doordash order around this time, too. 4:00' clock in the morning. Her phone shows that she may have been scrolling on TikTok for like, about 12 more minutes after the doordash delivery. And according to the police affidavit in this case, not long after that, Dylan comes face to face with the killer.
- [26:42]
Britt
It makes me think that he started at the top floor, right? Killed Maddie and Kaylee, then came down, killed Zanna and Ithan after. I know you said Dylan thought it was Maddie who said, someone's here. And maybe it was, but I also wonder, like, what if it could have been even Zanna, like, saying that to.
- [27:01]
Ashley Flowers
Ethan or Ethan to Zanna. Listen, I could spend 20 minutes spiraling about this, but, like, I'm gonna keep it short and sweet to what we do know as fact. In this moment, for the longest time, no one knew what order it happened in. But just a couple of weeks ago in court, prosecutors say that the way you kind of laid it out is exactly what they think happened. That basically the killer came into the home, went straight upstairs first, killed Maddie and Kaylee, Then as he was coming downstairs, he encountered Zanna, maybe getting her food, maybe eating it somewhere else. I mean, I know there was a Jack in the Box bag with her name on it seen in photos in the kitchen, but it was also a really messy kitchen. I can't say for sure that that bag was from that night, but it's possible. I mean, there are still so many details we don't have. But he encounters her somewhere, though we know she is at least in her doorway by the time he kills her. And then Ithan.
- [27:52]
Britt
But then why leave Dylan untouched? I mean, we know she had this encounter with him too.
- [27:59]
Ashley Flowers
Why? Right? Like that is our big question. Was it the way that they respond, responded like did they respond differently when they encountered him and it got different reactions from him? Was it something else? Now, despite police over and over again saying that they do not think Dylan or Bethany were involved, I told you, people online were brutal. They didn't understand how Dylan could see someone in the house in this, like, mask and not say anything. And they really didn't understand how the pair could, like, wake up the next morning and then be on, like, social media and calling people who weren't the police. And I don't think they liked the way that Dylan's statements or descriptions of the suspect developed over time. Like, earliest statement she gives, she describes this guy as not insanely tall, which is, like, very vague.
- [28:48]
Britt
Yeah.
- [28:48]
Ashley Flowers
And then later she gives an actual range. It was like 5, 10 to 6ft. And then it's not till the third sit down that she describes what is now infamously synonymous with this case, the bushy eyebrows. But experts have said that Bethany and Dylan were likely experiencing a trauma response. And by the way, we're old, like 20 something year olds, do a lot of their communications with friends on social media. So it is very possible that's how they were reaching out to their friends in that morning, trying to get people over or to find out things like, as they were having this trauma response.
- [29:23]
Britt
Or even like one of the avenues. I know for me, like, I have conversations with you on social media and on text and in person. Yeah. Like, there's a million different ways to communicate. And if you're trying to get ahold of people, why not try every avenue?
- [29:36]
Ashley Flowers
Right. And as far as, like, things changing, like, listen, I think she was still processing it all over time.
- [29:41]
Britt
Like, sure.
- [29:42]
Ashley Flowers
When, like when she came in one time, she even says that she remembers that this guy was carrying a vacuum type object in his hand, which, like.
- [29:51]
Britt
What would that have been?
- [29:53]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know. We're not sure. Like, Dylan tells detectives she really didn't know how much of what she was seeing was reality, what was a dream.
- [30:03]
Britt
And how much her mind is trying.
- [30:05]
Ashley Flowers
To fill in the gaps.
- [30:06]
Britt
Fill in the blanks. We talk about that all the time.
- [30:08]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. According to the Idaho four book, she even tells cops that she initially thought that the guy was like a firefighter. When you talk about filling in gaps.
- [30:14]
Britt
Right. Which obviously you're like, well, in all black with a mask on.
- [30:18]
Ashley Flowers
It doesn't make sense. But I told you, like, what's every story you can tell yourself except for the worst one, Trauma response. Like, the brain is wild when it comes to trauma, but the Internet does not care and it does not stop. They keep coming up with wild theories about not even just Dylan or Bethany, like the whole friend group, especially those closest to the victims, including the ones who came over in the morning to check out the house. Emily and Hunter. And then people were also suspicious of Maddie's boyfriend Jake, and then Kaylee's ex boyfriend, Jack. Everyone's getting attacked on social media. People were claiming that they must have been involved. And I think it was people just trying to piece together what could have happened with like almost zero information or just like you get like this itty bitty piece of the puzzle with zero context.
- [31:10]
Britt
It's kind of another situation of just filling in the blanks.
- [31:13]
Ashley Flowers
Right. And. Cause, like, one of the things we knew early on, or early ish, was that Kaylee called her ex boyfriend Jack a few times on the night of the murders. And so some people online thought that was odd. And I think that's why he comes up so much. But it seems like Kaylee was just like probably just drunk dialing him with Maddie next to her. And when we see all the phone records, like when those come out in December, it just like, again, this is where like all the speculation comes from because it shows that Dylan was also like deleting pictures on her phone and editing videos from 5am to 6:30am and at this time, she's already in Bethany's room. Now she stops using her phone until like 8:05am when she opens Instagram for a bit. But she's also checking Ethan and Zanna's Snapchat locations. But to me, that makes sense if she's wondering if they're home, what the full picture is, what it means or doesn't mean. We probably would have gotten in a trial and may get when the gag order is lifted. But for now, spoiler alert. We're about to get to the point where police know who did it and it's not any of these kids. Police determine that none of them have anything to do with this crime. But even though, again, even though we have a person, even the police have said that, I don't even know if that has stopped Dylan and Bethany from getting hate mail and death threats.
- [32:34]
Britt
Imagine having your friends murdered in the house that you were in with them and then being accused of doing it yourself while you're trying to grieve and deal with survivors and like, just being that young and trying to get on with your, like get on with your life to a certain extent while processing all that trauma.
- [32:53]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, I don't Know what life after that looks like. And it is worth mentioning. I mean, we. Our team tried to reach out to Dylan and Bethany, but we didn't hear back. And by the way, like, I think the friends got the hardest part of this all. But there were tons of people who were just getting lit up online by others who had no business playing detective. And it made life very hard for people. Like, there was this guy who was seen in that video footage from the food truck talking to Maddie and Kaylee. This guy's wearing like a hood or whatever. It's like cold November weather. But everyone decides that hoodie guy is guilty and did this. Except he. He didn't. Police determine he was someone that they knew who they were able to clear of involvement.
- [33:33]
Britt
Wasn't there even like a professor at the university who got accused of being involved early on? Like, I just remember something about how upside down this accusation turned their life with like zero to back it up.
- [33:45]
Ashley Flowers
Professor Rebecca Schofield, who teaches at the University of Idaho. So this one was like, I remember this vividly. There was this tiktoker and self proclaimed psychic Ashley Gillard, who accused this professor of having a secret romantic relationship with one of the victims. I don't know where that came from, but Gillard was basically saying that the professor ordered the murders. And I mean, there was absolutely no evidence to back this up. And Scofield actually ended up filing a defamation lawsuit against that tiktoker. And it was a saga in court with Gillard trying to defend her claims by noting that she. She got other crime scene details. Right. But the court ruled early on that Gillard did in fact defame Scofield. Not surprising. Yeah, and they're actually. This is still ongoing. They're waiting on a trial to see how much she's gonna have to pay her. But again, I think that's like one of the most extreme ones. But there were endless other stories that people were coming up with. I mean, there's rumors that drugs were involved. There were also rumblings of Kaylee having a stalker. But the Moscow PD looks into all of it and nothing comes of any of those rumors. But still, police follow each one of these, even the far fetched ones. But when nothing pans out, they start scouring the area near King Road for surveillance footage.
- [35:03]
Britt
Have they already sent the knife sheath and stuff off for forensic testing by this point?
- [35:08]
Ashley Flowers
Oh, yeah. All of this is happening really fast. Like, they're not just gonna like hold off and wait for that to come back, though. I mean, they know they're working against the clock when it comes to an active investigation. And they wanna get everything they fast as they can and again, not above asking for help. So they actually lean on Moscow residents and local businesses to look at their own video footage and bring them anything that they think is sus. And they find footage that shows a white Hyundai Elantra near the King Roadhouse a little before 3:30am on the night of the murders. And then they keep seeing it until like 4:20. And there's this weird pattern of activity. Like the driver just keeps passing the house over and over again. I mean it's chilling when you know what happened there. And by the way, the house is on a dead end street. So anyone passing it this many times is doing it intentionally. What's even more chilling is at exactly 4:04am this car is seen stopping and turning around. And it looks like this person tries to park on the street behind the house in an area that can't be seen on surveillance. So we don't know what happens because a little bit of time goes by. And then at 4:20am this car is seen one final time speeding away from the house.
- [36:29]
Britt
And what time did the doordash food get dropped off to Zanna? Was it right in that same window?
- [36:34]
Ashley Flowers
4:00Am yeah. And at some point they actually did find that doordash driver. And she says that she parked right next to this white car, maybe even saw the killer, according to ABC News. But exactly what she said, if she said more than that hasn't been fully released. I think they were at least up till this point trying to keep her story locked up for a potential trial. But I wonder if more is going to come out because the timing is wild to me. And I mean to be clear, she's been totally cleared. She like just dropped off the food and left, but.
- [37:04]
Britt
Right, but was he already in the house? Was he still in his car?
- [37:10]
Ashley Flowers
Exactly. Like was it just lucky timing that the door Dash driver didn't see or hear more or spook him?
- [37:17]
Britt
Or did he know it was coming? Like did he have to wait for it?
- [37:22]
Ashley Flowers
Like there's all the questions. Yeah, yeah. Like how regularly was door dash ordered at 4am on a Saturday night out? Right. Like I know my doordash account sees a lot of action usually at certain times. Like maybe he, this guy, like he knew to wait or maybe he was.
- [37:37]
Britt
Just passing the house all those times until he saw the lights go out or something too.
- [37:42]
Ashley Flowers
He's waiting for something. Now police don't have good enough video footage to see this guy or even see the plates on the car. And they couldn't make contact with that door dash driver for a while to even get a description or anything from her. So they did the best they could with what they had in those, like, immediate first couple of days. So on November 25, this is 12 days after the murder, Moscow police ask all law enforcement to be on the lookout for this car, which they only know to be a 2011-2013 white Hyundai Elantra. And while they wait for responses, they start running down leads that could maybe connect someone to the murder weapon. Completely unaware, though, that within four days, Washington State University police in Pullman, Washington, come across a white Hyundai Elantra that kind of fits the description they got on that bolo. So they ran the plates, but for whatever reason, maybe because this car they're running the plates on is two years newer than what they were looking for. This one's a 2015. They don't pass that tip on to Moscow police. They just make a note of it in their own records that says they ran this. It was registered to someone who lives in a student apartment at the school. Someone named Brian Kohberger. And that student apartment that he lives in, it's only a 19 minute drive to 1122 King Road.
- [39:17]
Britt
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- [41:20]
Ashley Flowers
Painfully unaware of the development made over in Washington. Police are coming at the investigation from every other angle they can think of. That sheath that they found had a serial number on it. So they start serving search warrants to Amazon and ebay, trying to track down the buyer. And that's when they get a good news, bad news break in the case. Good news, maybe you won't need to rely on this car or the ebay search warrant or whatever to lead to the killer. Lab testing is done and there is an unknown male profile DNA on the knife sheath. But oh wait, bad news actually maybe you need to do that stuff because we put that into CODIS and there isn't a match.
- [42:03]
Britt
Okay, but good news, IGG exists.
- [42:06]
Ashley Flowers
Totally. And by the way, they also like cross reference with like the people in this case. Not theirs either. So they do. They jump to IGG Investigative genetic genealogy. Now for those of you who aren't like totally read up on this, the DNA profile that you pull for CODIS is different than what you need for igg. So even though this is an exciting, viable option that most investigations didn't even have just a couple of years before this, it's also going to take a minute because they have to start the testing process all over again. Starting from trying to pull a viable SNP profile, uploading that to public databases like GEDmatch, and then working a family tree backwards from Lord only knows what distant relative.
- [42:47]
Britt
Right?
- [42:48]
Ashley Flowers
So it's not for another month, on December 19, that Moscow police hear Bryan Kohberger's name for the very first time. And when they start looking into this guy, I can only imagine how elated they are when the lead investigator on this case, Detective Corporal Brett Kane, sees Kohberger's driver's license photo and determines he looks a lot like Dylan's description. Even has those bushy eyebrows she mentioned. And it just keeps getting better when they see what car he drives. A white 2015 Hyundai Elantra. And it must just feel like icing on the cake when they search surveillance footage around Kohberger's apartment in Pullman on the night of the murders. And lo and behold, it shows him leaving in said white car at 2:44am heading south on State Road 270 toward Moscow. This is it. Like, this is their guy. There is just one problem. Their guy booked it out of town six days before they realized who he was. They find out that on December 13, Kohberger and his dad took a cross country drive from Washington state to Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, where his parents live.
- [44:05]
Britt
So his dad flew out there to make the drive?
- [44:08]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah.
- [44:09]
Britt
And was this plan like. I'm curious what his dad was thinking when they made this trip, because it is a. It's a commitment of a trip.
- [44:16]
Ashley Flowers
It's weird, right? Like, yeah, court documents say that the reason he's making this trip is he's headed home for winter break. So I don't know, maybe he told his dad that he wanted his car for break. Dad wanted to make sure that he made the trip safely. They wanted bonding time. I don't know. But even a cop that pulled them over along the way thought it was weird they got pulled over twice, actually, in Indiana, of all places. Like, it's a little weird that I feel Hoosier pride, but they're just, like, pulled over in, like, routine stops. And in one of them, there's body cam footage. And you can hear the trooper ask Coburger and his dad, like, where are you going? And you can't really make out what they tell the trooper. I mean, we know where they're going, right? I assume they tell him Pennsylvania. And the trooper jokingly asks, like, are you guys scared of airplanes? Or, like.
- [44:57]
Britt
Right. Like, it is a long trip, but.
- [45:00]
Ashley Flowers
The stop doesn't result in anything. They're just let go with no issues. There are theories online, though, from Internet sleuths after the fact, wondering if maybe he was using this time to dump evidence. There is no evidence of this. And it might be as simple as the dude was just going about life as normal. And to him, it doesn't matter that he just slaughtered four kids and wrecked four families. Even more friends and loved ones. It was Christmas break and he planned to drive home. I also wonder if he was wanting to get his car out of the area. But before police just show up at his door in Pennsylvania, they want their ducks in a row. So a bunch of things happen in quick succession, starting with learning everything they can about this guy. What they learn is that Bryan Kohberger was in Washington State University's Ph.D. program. And for those crime junkies who are coming in from fresh to this, welcome to one of the most messed up parts about this case. He was getting his PhD in criminology and he'd even earned a master's degree in criminal justice from DeSales University in Pennsylvania earlier that year, where he studied under serial killer expert Dr. Katherine Ramslin, who wrote the biography of Dennis Rader, better known as the BTK Killer. Yeah, he even applied for an internship with the Pullman police department in 2022. But this is where things start to get eerie. So they find out that as part of a research project he did at DeSales, he set up this online survey and Bryan Kohberger was listed as the student investigator. And listen, I'm going to post this whole thing because it is fascinating and I read every single line. But I know that we're on the clock here and you guys have already given me like a ton of time, so I'm going to give you the highlights. Basically, this thing is set up as a crime research study. Like, here's some of what it says. Please note that the following survey asks you to detail your most recent criminal offense, whether you were caught or not. In the event that you were not charged, convicted or incarcerated for the offense, you may still participate in this research. Welcome to the research study. We are interested in understanding how emotions and psychological traits influence the decision making involved in committing a crime. After completing a series of background questions, you will be presented with open ended questions relevant to the most recent crime you were involved in and asked to detail your thoughts, emotions and actions from the beginning to the end of the crime commission process. So then it goes on and it gives instructions about filling it out, how long it should take, and then it goes into the question, some of which are, how did you travel to and enter the location that the crime occurred. After arriving, what steps did you take prior to locating the victim or target, I.e. person or object, please detail your thoughts and feelings. Why did you choose that victim or target? Over others. And before leaving, is there anything else you did? And by the way, this whole thing gets posted months and before the murders. And listen, his professor at the time, who only knew him through an online class, said that being the survey, it falls square into the type of research that they would do in the school's master program. So she didn't think anything was weird about it, but she did note that he didn't actually use any of the data from the questionnaire. So, like, did no one answer? Was it really data gathering for personal use? Will we ever know?
- [48:45]
Britt
I mean, I'm sure police know they had to have collected all his devices and talked to the school and.
- [48:51]
Ashley Flowers
Oh, I'm sure because, like, I know they went through a lot of his digital stuff starting, I know, with phone records and. Let me talk about those. So Coburger's phone records match the surveillance footage outside of his home in Pullman. This shows he leaves around the same time. This one tracks it at 2:47am the night of the murders. But then his phone suddenly goes off the grid. Like he turned it off or put it in airplane mode.
- [49:16]
Britt
Sounds like the criminology student didn't want anyone tracking his movements.
- [49:19]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, and so his phone stays dark all the way up until 4:48am when it comes back online and pings, putting him on State Highway 95 south of Moscow. Now his phone is traveling south and he takes this like, long way back to pullman. And by 5:30am his phone is home.
- [49:40]
Britt
And you said from his place to the Kings roadhouse is like 15, 20.
- [49:45]
Ashley Flowers
Minutes, 20 minutes tops. Like when you're taking highways with cameras. 20 minutes. But if you say went the back roads that are darker, that don't have cameras, wander around a little bit. Yep. Something else they see on his phone records gives me full body chills. Five hours after the murders, Kohberger's phone leaves his home again and travels back to Moscow. And not just back to the town in general. His phone pings the cell towers covering the King Roadhouse between 9:12am and 9:21am.
- [50:23]
Britt
I never knew that.
- [50:24]
Ashley Flowers
So I know I didn't like till I got deep in this.
- [50:27]
Britt
So he returned to the scene of the crime.
- [50:30]
Ashley Flowers
It's possible.
- [50:32]
Britt
And like I. I'm just like thinking back. All of their friends are out in front of that house at that time.
- [50:36]
Ashley Flowers
No, they're not. They don't come out until later. They're still. Bethany and Dylan are still in the room. I know. And listen, I have a zillion thoughts about this like at some point he had to have realized that he was missing the knife sheath, like with a serial number on it that he bought with his own name. So would he have gone back to try and see if he could get that? But maybe there was like, again, they're not outside yet. There's no activity around the house necessarily at that moment.
- [51:05]
Britt
But he has to imagine that, like.
- [51:06]
Ashley Flowers
It'S nine o' clock in the morning, like things are happening, people are out, like, and so maybe he didn't have the opportunity, or maybe he was just going back hoping to catch a glimpse of a crime scene, which.
- [51:20]
Britt
But like you said, it wasn't a crime scene to anyone else yet.
- [51:24]
Ashley Flowers
I know.
- [51:25]
Britt
And how long did his phone put him there?
- [51:27]
Ashley Flowers
It was just those like nine minutes. So I don't know again, was he trying to get in? I don't feel like someone who would commit a crime like this, like is above just sadistically watching from the sidelines, like wanting to see the chaos you create. Created. But you also can't just like hang around and wait for it to happen. So nine minutes. Whatever he's doing, he gives it nine minutes, then he drives back to Pullman, to his place and takes a selfie with like a thumbs up in his bathroom mirror. Now it's unclear if he was like in his apartment the entire time after that or what. But later that afternoon at 12:46pm his phone shows up around like a 50 minute drive away from, from his place near a coffee stand in Clarkston. Then he goes to a grocery store nearby. Though police know that this area is by two large bodies of water, Clearwater river and the Snake River. So again, like, are we throwing things away? We still can't find the murder weapon. Around 5:30pm he is again back on those unlit back roads in Washington that can lead to Moscow. And then again his phone ghosts for about three hours. And what he's doing in that time, I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever know. Was it the same thing he was trying to do earlier in the day? But my gut tells me that these moves were carefully planned because police can see in the phone data that Coburger's cell phone wasn't just near King Road. On the morning after the murders. His phone pinged on the cell towers covering that area approximately 23 times in the months leading up to November 13, starting all the way back in July. And it was always between the hours of 10pm and 4am so he kind.
- [53:18]
Britt
Of was casing the place.
- [53:20]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, this is what I'm saying. This home was his target. But still, why? Why this specific home and what set this into motion then? Clearly, this was a plot months in the making. Right. Like his phone starts pinging there in July. And when they see his online shopping records, they know that he bought that knife on Amazon eight months before the murders. And then, by the way, he searched for one just like it days after the murder. So he's probably trying to like, replace the one he got rid of.
- [53:51]
Britt
Yeah.
- [53:52]
Ashley Flowers
And again, I know we don't know if this, like, online school survey that he didn't use the data of has anything to do with anything, but it feels like everything starts like a few months before this. Right. Like, that's when that gets posted too. So police feel like they are on the edge of an arrest now. All roads lead to Bryan Kohberger. So that's when they start surveilling his parents home in Pennsylvania. He's still there on winter break. According to KSL.com they see Coburger clean his car from top to bottom. They apparently see him wearing surgical gloves at some point, like multiple times, which, like, odd little off.
- [54:27]
Britt
Yeah.
- [54:28]
Ashley Flowers
So when the family puts their trash on the curb, law enforcement swoops in to grab it and send it to the Idaho state lab for testing. And the very next day. So by the way, DNA testing can happen fast. Now, we know the very next day, DNA from a Q tip in that trash definitively gets linked to the dad of whoever's DNA was on the knife sheath. So on December 30, at around 12.30am, snipers surround the Coburger family home in Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania's cert team breaks down the door and takes Coburger into custody on suspicion of four counts of first degree murder and one count of burglary.
- [55:10]
Britt
Why the burglary charge? I thought nothing was taken.
- [55:13]
Ashley Flowers
Nothing was. That's just standard in Idaho. If you enter a home to commit a theft, theft or any kind of felony, you get a burglary charge even if nothing was taken or you didn't complete whatever the felony was.
- [55:23]
Britt
Got it.
- [55:24]
Ashley Flowers
So once they have him in custody, their work is far from over. They got to collect his DNA for a direct comparison. Like, because you can't convict him on dad's connecting match, which they do. And no surprise here, it's his. Now they search his car, which they collect as well, for evidence. But it's super clean.
- [55:42]
Britt
Yeah, they watched him scrub it from top to bottom. I wanted.
- [55:46]
Ashley Flowers
I literally wanted to pull My hair out when I heard that part forever ago. But listen, I think they were playing the long game here. I guess they didn't want to, like, blow their case by stopping him from cleaning his car. Like, they had plenty of other evidence against him if they played their cards right. So car no go. But they also search his parents home. They find a knife. It doesn't end up being the knife, so no real help there. They also collect black gloves, a black face mask, a black hat, Glock 40 caliber magazines, and, like, a lot of.
- [56:15]
Britt
Criminology books, was the same type of mask that Dylan described. And like, the gloves, were they the same, like the one they found outside of the house?
- [56:24]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know. What I know is that police do find out that he purchased a balaclava months before the murders. Again, months. It's, like, all happening at the same time. And that, like, that they have purchase records of. It's the same kind of black mask that, like, covers your whole face. And that one matched Dylan's initial description. So we know he had one or at least purchased one. I don't know if that's the one they found. And as far as the gloves go, and this is actually an interesting monkey wrench, I need listeners to tell me what they think this means, respectfully. Like, theories only. No accusations, please. So I don't know if it was the same type of glove. It's not listed in any reports. But what is listed is that the glove at King Road that got tested for DNA alongside the knife sheath, along with the spot of blood on the handrail. Yeah, the blood spot on the handrail and the DNA in the glove, those came back as not Bryan Kohberger.
- [57:19]
Britt
Okay, then whose was it?
- [57:22]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know. Like, apparently whatever that DNA they got from those wasn't eligible for codis, which could have been for a number of reasons. Like, we know there's a bunch of specific rules about the profile and how.
- [57:32]
Britt
It has to, like, meet certain qualifications and specifications.
- [57:36]
Ashley Flowers
I also know, like, not only does the profile have to be good enough, but, like, you have to be able to, like, say that this was related to the crime. And maybe they, like, don't know that for sure. Like, what the house feels like, probably.
- [57:46]
Britt
But maybe it doesn't tie, like, the love, like, outside.
- [57:50]
Ashley Flowers
So I don't know why it wasn't included in codis, but court records show. I mean, I know investigators already had Coburger's name and DNA by, like, the point that they learn about this other stuff. So Detective Payne obviously Has been asked about this, and, like, court record showed the answer he gave as. As to why not codis? And, like, to me, I don't really fully understand it. He said that his quote understanding was that entering a new DNA profile into CODIS would get rid of the one that was already in there from the sheath, and they decided to address the other DNA down the road only if they needed to.
- [58:26]
Britt
So. Okay.
- [58:27]
Ashley Flowers
Which, like, doesn't. I think you can enter too, but.
- [58:29]
Britt
Like, I don't know if it's. Seems like we should. Seems like we should be able to enter more than one crime.
- [58:33]
Ashley Flowers
Like, if there. If there were, like, not in this crime, but, like, I'm trying. I'm thinking about the old crimes. That there was, like, more than one.
- [58:38]
Britt
Culprit or more than one piece of evidence.
- [58:41]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know.
- [58:42]
Britt
Okay. All that aside, these other two items with DNA profiles on them, the glove, the spot on the handrail. Those were the same profile on both?
- [58:55]
Ashley Flowers
No. So, no. That would, I think, be even more suspicious. These are two separate unidentified male profiles. Oh. Still unidentified to this day. So sorry, we got a little bit sidetracked of, like, all of that. But we're back to the search warrant. So they also search his apartment. They search an office he had at Washington State. They're looking at all his devices. Cell phone, computer, hard drive. They take a vacuum container into evidence.
- [59:20]
Britt
Wait, so did Dylan really see him holding a vacuum?
- [59:24]
Ashley Flowers
I don't think so. Police at that point think that Dylan probably was just trying to, like, like we said earlier, make sense of what was. I don't think it was a legit vacuum that she saw, but I'm just sure they're taking it. Wanting to analyze what's inside of the vacuum, since this is an actual vacuum container and this guy's obviously, like, intensely cleaning things.
- [59:41]
Britt
Well, and to, like, check the box. She said vacuum. We have a vacuum.
- [59:44]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. Also, are you, like, sweeping out things? And there's hair or fibers or whatever. They take another black glove. They take some receipts, parts of an uncased pillow that has stains that police describe as reddish brown and possible animal hair, among other things. I mean, they are going through all of it, and they send all of it off to the lab. And with Kohberger behind bars, on December 30th, the Pennsylvania State Police and Moscow PD announce his arrest to the public. And later that day, his mug shot is all over the Internet.
- [60:17]
Britt
Yeah, so this is one of those cases that I had been loosely following but wasn't tracking, like, super closely. I got behind one day and it was like it got away from me. Yeah, I know, but I remember being pretty floored that this arrest happened so quickly.
- [60:33]
Ashley Flowers
Well, especially when, like, early on, like, it, it did seem so random.
- [60:36]
Britt
Yeah, it came out like no one had any information. And then all of a sudden, we had it.
- [60:41]
Ashley Flowers
I was, I. I've seen it go so bad so many times that I think I was a little shocked. But I think everyone was. They were shocked, but they were elated. Like, great. We had. We found him, but who is he? And I mean, Kaylee's dad, Steve Gonzalez, told Good Morning America that, I mean, when he saw it, he felt like this cloud was lifted off of him and his family. Like, I mean, it has to feel like such a weight. Like, okay, we're one step closer, but I mean, we know that an arrest is only the beginning and we know the way that the time leading up to and at trial can become a media circus.
- [61:16]
Britt
Yeah, been there, done that. Her name was Karen Reid.
- [61:19]
Ashley Flowers
Exactly. Listen, I don't know if most of the families knew what they'd be in for. Like, and I'm not talking about these four, like, any family that goes through this, I don't know if you know what you're in for unless you've already lived through it. But it doesn't matter. At least for the Gonzalez family. They want their day in court because they want to know why this happened. So Kohlberger has a hearing in Pennsylvania on January 3rd. He agrees to be extradited to Idaho, which happens the next day. And then he's quickly assigned a court appointed public defender, Kootenay County Chief Public Defender Ann Taylor. And there's. I feel like I'm full of side stories today, which is, like, usually not my jam.
- [61:57]
Britt
But, like, this is the case.
- [61:58]
Ashley Flowers
There's this whole other side story that I'll summarize quickly. Basically, it comes up that the public defender's office represented Zanna's mom at some point, or like a couple different points, Kara Northington. But Ann Taylor argued in court that there was no conflict of interest. And because, well, she's saying that she didn't actually represent Kara herself. Her name is just on all of the paperwork in the office because she's the chief attorney. And I'm not going to get into all of, like, Kara's legal stuff because she's not the one on trial here.
- [62:26]
C
But.
- [62:27]
Ashley Flowers
But this matters because Taylor had been assigned but withdrew from Kara's most recent case the same day Coburger appeared in court for the first time in Idaho, January 5th. So Kara told News Nation later that month that she felt heartbroken because she trusted Taylor. Like, I mean, like, she's. Now she's not going to defend you. She's going to go defend the guy who's accused of murdering your daughter. Right.
- [62:50]
Britt
Right.
- [62:51]
Ashley Flowers
Now, the thing I'll say is, like, since she is the chief public defender and this is a death penalty case or was going to be a death.
- [62:58]
Britt
Penalty case, she's, like, top of the list.
- [63:00]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah. She might have been one of the only ones who can take on something this big. So, anyways, soon after Kohberger had gotten arrested, they actually brought Dylan back in for questioning. And she tells police that she found Coburger's mugshot online after she heard about the arrest. But when they ask her if she recognizes him as the guy she saw in the house, she says she doesn't know.
- [63:20]
Britt
And she doesn't know who he is outside of this.
- [63:23]
Ashley Flowers
No.
- [63:23]
Britt
Like, any connection found to any of the victims or survivors?
- [63:28]
Ashley Flowers
Well, no, it doesn't seem like any of them knew him. And honestly, had it not been for the sheath, this is what I'm saying, like, when I saw the arrest and when you realized what, like, how it happened, had it not been for the sheath, I don't know if they would have connected him to anything inside that house. I mean, his DNA isn't matched to any of, like, the hair that they found. No fiber samples collected from the murder scene, and nothing in his car or house could be tied to the victims either. But he did. He made that mistake. They've got his DNA placing him there. They've got the cell phone pings now that seem to indicate he was canvassing the scene leading up to the murders. And that's what matters to police. So on May 16, he gets officially indicted. On May 22, we're now in 2023, he declines to even give a plea, so the judge has to enter one for him. Not guilty on all counts. And then a trial date gets set and then pushed and then pushed some more, but it looked like it was finally locked in. August 18, 2025, was going to be the start of opening statements. I mean, we even started reporting on this story in anticipation of a trial start date. We were even going to stream it on the crime junkie jury YouTube page to keep close tabs on how it was unfolding. And then just weeks away from the trial start, prosecutors dropped a bomb. And I'm not kidding you when I tell you the collective gasp in the office, like, yeah, we did not see it coming. I mean, listen, I like I was a little surprised early on that we didn't start here, start at a plea deal. But like now, this close to the.
- [65:02]
D
Trial too, based on the state's proffer, and importantly, based upon defendants explicit admission to committing these crimes, the court finds there is a factual basis. Therefore, with respect to count one, burglary felony, how do you plead? Mr. Kohlberger, guilty or not guilty?
- [65:22]
Ashley Flowers
Guilty.
- [65:23]
D
As to count two, murder in the first degree, as it relates to the murder of Madison Mogan, how do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?
- [65:32]
Ashley Flowers
Guilty.
- [65:32]
D
As to count three, as it relates to murder in the first degree, for the murder of Kaylee Gonsalves, how do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?
- [65:39]
Ashley Flowers
Guilty.
- [65:40]
D
As to count four, the first degree murder of Zanna Kern Kernodle, pardon me, a human being, how do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?
- [65:49]
Ashley Flowers
Guilty.
- [65:50]
D
As to count five, first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, a human being, how do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?
- [65:57]
Ashley Flowers
Guilty. Right.
- [65:59]
D
The court will find that the defendant understands the nature of the charges and each offense and the possible consequences to him of his guilty plea. Court finds that there is a factual basis for the plea and finds the defendant believes the plea to be in his best interest. I find the plea. The plea was given freely, voluntarily and was intelligently made. I accept the plea. I direct that it be entered. I'll continue the matter for sentencing in this case.
- [66:26]
Ashley Flowers
When Coburger changed his plea and admitted to killing Maddie, Zanna, Ethan and Kaylee, he was doing it in exchange for one thing.
- [66:37]
E
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- [67:37]
Ashley Flowers
You have five new messages. Hey Carl, it's Jen from finance. Could you submit your expenses this week? Hey Carl, happy Friday. It's Jen, Finance. Just need those receipts today. Me again, Carl. Really need those receipts like last week. Please just tell me where they are. Are you by your desk right now?
- [67:56]
E
Finance teams, you shouldn't be chasing down Carl or anyone else with ramp. Expenses are sent with a text and reminders happen automatically. Switch your business to ramp.com today and love finance again.
- [68:09]
Ashley Flowers
The deal put forward to Bryan Kohberger was that if he would plead guilty to all four counts of murder, prosecutors would take the death penalty off the table. And I was a little shocked to learn that the families of the victims didn't know about this plea deal until like days before it was set to happen. And some of them were understandably livid. When he was asked about the deal, Kaylee's dad, Steve told NBC today that Idaho has failed his whole family.
- [68:38]
Britt
I know they don't have to, but I just don't understand why they wouldn't go to the Families first to make sure they were okay with it.
- [68:46]
Ashley Flowers
I know, well, and I, I thought they would. I have this rule which, by the way, I do not think applies here. I'm not a prosecutor in charge of deciding whether or not someone has their day in court. But like, in my business, I say, like, don't ask for someone's opinion unless you plan on really taking it or really giving it like a heavy weight and consideration. Like, right, you already have your mind made up. Don't make a show of including people.
- [69:07]
Britt
In the process just for the courtesy of like saying you asked if you're going to do what you're going to do, just do it.
- [69:12]
Ashley Flowers
So if they already had their minds made up, maybe they weren't going to ask. But it just as well could be that they had enough contact with the families to know where each one of them stood. And they could have known that they were going to get different answers from them. Like, the families were not all aligned. So I don't think there was going to be one decision that pleased everyone. Like, Ithan's family had no plans to attend the trial in the first place because they didn't want to re traumatize themselves, themselves. And they released a statement after the news of Coburger's plea deal saying that they support it. For them, it seems like it's a moment of closure. And I imagine had they known a plea deal was an option that wasn't taken and then this case was going to be made a spectacle of in their minds, unnecessarily. They probably would have been upset with that outcome. Maybe. I don't know. I just know that this isn't the first time that the families have disagreed on how authorities handled one or more parts of the investigation. Like, for example, there was like, there are certain blips in this case. I just remember so vividly. One of them is when the King Road house at the university was destroyed. So the university actually owned the house and after the murders, the school had it demolished again. Kaylee's dad, Steve, was very vocal about his disagreement with the decision because he thought that police should have made sure that house was preserved until a trial. But Ethan's family supported the demolition in the Amazon docuseries. Ethan's brother Hunter, who, by the way, Ethan, he was one of a set of triplets who were all at that university, but his brother Hunter didn't live too far from the King Road house. He could see the house from his bedroom window and it was the first thing he saw when he woke up and he just didn't want to look at it anymore.
- [70:54]
Britt
Yeah, I don't think anyone would want that Daily reminder. And like, in general, as far as the trial goes, people handle grief differently. I get just wanting the person who did it to accept responsibility and to not drag it out because at the end of the day, nothing can bring your kid back and it just has to hurt all the time for sure.
- [71:14]
Ashley Flowers
And I mean, people will say like, oh, well, they weren't planning on going to the trial anyways, but like, think about it. You think that's going to stop them from hearing about every last detail? Like, ask someone in your life who's not a crime junkie if they know about this case. They know about this case. It is everywhere. There would be no escaping it. But for those family members who did want the trial, what they wanted was the answer to why. And now they don't get that because along with removing the death penalty, his plea deal didn't require him to give any details or of why he did this. And so the motive in these murders remains a big mystery throughout this entire case. However, according to the Idaho Four book, some family and friends of the victims do have a theory. They believe that this was targeted and they believe that the target was Maddie.
- [72:14]
Britt
Why? I know police have never come out and said this.
- [72:18]
Ashley Flowers
Here's the thing. So there isn't any real evidence that's been shared with the public that proves Coburger targeted Maddie, but according to the book, Coburger definitely knew who she was. Apparently he had liked some of her Instagram photos, even liked some of Kaylee's Instagram photos that had Maddie in them.
- [72:39]
Britt
But did he just find her on or how would he have known her in the first place, even? I don't know.
- [72:45]
Ashley Flowers
Some people who knew the victims have suggested that maybe he dined at the restaurant that she and Zanna worked at in Moscow, this place called Mad Greek. And maybe he, like, became fixated on.
- [72:56]
Britt
Her, like, to kill her.
- [72:59]
Ashley Flowers
Well, the answer, like, I feel like, to understand how we got, like, you gotta know more about who he is to try and, like, wrap your head around that, because I don't think it necessarily started that way. So people who knew him claim that he struggled with substance use disorder throughout his early years. And by the time he got to Washington State university for his PhD, it seems like he was somewhat of a loner who had a very clear disdain for women. He was a TA working for a criminology class leading up to the murders. And his class and the students that he taught describe his behavior toward women and comments that he made in class, they describe them all as, like, misogynistic and antagonistic. And he even implied to another student that women should be housemakers and have no business getting master's degrees. And apparently he'd been given multiple warnings about his behavior. But after months of this, the school did get fed up. And just shortly after the murders, actually, but before he was caught, he got fired from that TA position. Like, it got that bad.
- [74:06]
Britt
It kind of sounds like a textbook description of, like, incel culture.
- [74:10]
Ashley Flowers
It kind of is. And admittedly, that term has come up a ton in this case. And I had heard that term a ton in recent years. I think it gets thrown around a lot. But I actually read the definition of it for the first time while doing this, and from, you know, from Wikipedia, I didn't go, like, deep deep, but, like, the term is associated with an online subculture of mostly male and heterosexual people who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. And then they often blame or objectify and denigrate women and girls as a result. So Patterson and Ward's book, as well as the documentary we mentioned, and lots of experts in this case say that Kohberger, not. Not just that we're, like, talking about incel in general, but he was specifically modeling himself after a guy named Elliot Roger, who I wasn't super familiar with. Elliot was a 22 year old mass murderer who went on a stabbing and shooting spree in Isla Vista, California targeting primarily women outside of a sorority and the surrounding area. He killed six people, injured 14 others before taking his own life. And right before the attacks he had posted some YouTube videos and this 137 page manifesto titled My Twisted World. And in all of this he complained about how he was still a virgin and he hated women for rejecting him. He wrote out a detailed plan that he spent years coming up with, calling the attacks the day of retribution. According to the Idaho Four book, Kohberger even took a class taught by Dr. Ramslin at DeSales that focused on spree murderers like Elliot Rodger. And the Rogers YouTube video was part of the syllabus. Of course, this could all just be people trying to make sense of a crime that maybe doesn't make a lot of sense. But I haven't even gotten to the Papa Roger of it all.
- [76:06]
Britt
I totally forgot about the Papa Roger thing.
- [76:10]
Ashley Flowers
It's. This is like another weird moment. So in the days after the murders there was a Facebook group started up called University of Idaho Case Discussion Facebook Group page. And the goal was to spread information that could help the investigation. And like that stuff's pretty typical when you have these major cases, but one person active on the page and posting under the name Papa Roger caught a lot of people's eye.
- [76:38]
Britt
Papa Roger, like an ode to Elliot Roger potentially.
- [76:42]
Ashley Flowers
Now whoever this was started commenting some really weird stuff in the group, like information the public did not know yet. And I actually brought some of it for you to read.
- [76:54]
Britt
Of the evidence released, the murder weapon has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife. This leads me to believe they found the sheath.
- [77:04]
Ashley Flowers
So like not a big deal to us right now, but in that moment this person should not have known that because when Papa Roger posted that it wasn't public knowledge that a sheath had been left behind. And I don't think a sheath is like the logical thought most people would come to. Like most people would, I feel like talk about knives and be like oh like a stab wounds or whatever because like the autopsy, I don't know, but it was strange. And then he asked other odd things in the Facebook group that the book mentions, like how did the killer hold the knife prior to entering the scene in your opinion? Sounds a lot like a survey. And he also wrote that the killer isn't in the group's immediate circle. And the guy reportedly argued incessantly with other commenters. And at some point police started monitoring this group like it made it to their radar as well just because of this Papa Roger guy. And eventually Papa Roger gets banned from the group for name calling. Now I think it's also interesting that we know police took a book from Co Burger's house that they say had information on page 118 of that book. Like that was underlined. Now we're like piecing together things here because police have never said what that book was. But there was a lot of speculation online that it was Elliot Rodgers manifesto. Because page 118 of that talks about how he selected the date for his massacre that he carried out.
- [78:35]
Britt
Do we know if there's any significance to November 13th?
- [78:38]
Ashley Flowers
No. So there's nothing been reported on about that or if they tied A to B. It's just again, a weird thing that keeps coming up. Now I would imagine that if all of this stuff is backed up by police, police reports and data found on his devices or in his home or office or whatever, we might get more one day. But for now all we can do is speculate. I mean, there's been a gag order in this case since very early on and I'm not sure when that's going to be lifted.
- [79:07]
Britt
Are permanent gag orders a thing?
- [79:10]
Ashley Flowers
I mean, they are pretty rare in criminal trials. Unless it's like a matter of usually when they can do it as like national security or something like that.
- [79:18]
Britt
So if it was Maddie he was targeting, I still don't get the reason behind why some roommates were also targeted and others weren't.
- [79:27]
Ashley Flowers
Well, I mean, if his focus was on Maddy and Kaylee was in the bed with her, maybe, I don't know, he could have gotten surprised by that. Maybe not. I don't know. One thing, this is like not backed up by anyone Dylan talks about like, oh, I heard noises. I thought she was playing with her dog. I also kind of wonder if he like, how much did he scope the house? Did he go into Kaylee's room first, like and see the dog and then like, oh, I gotta go find her.
- [79:47]
Britt
Right?
- [79:47]
Ashley Flowers
Again, I'm just like making stuff up at this point. I have no idea. But if the Elliot Roger thing is the real deal, then maybe he meant to kill everyone in the house as like a bigger show of his anger. But then also I go back to, why leave Dylan now? I don't know if you remember, this was like so long ago, but back in the day I talked to Zip about this when it first happened.
- [80:09]
Britt
Zip.
- [80:09]
Ashley Flowers
I know for my new crime junkies. Patrick Zirpoli, he worked for the Pennsylvania State Police. And when he retired in 2015, he was the unit supervisor of the Pennsylvania State Police Criminal Investigation Assessment Unit. Mouthful, but he does a lot of crime assessment trainings now. We've had him on for a few of our shows. We've talked about different cases. And early on I ran into him at. I actually think it was like the DEC Live show when I was on tour for DEC investigates, and this had just happened. Like, people were just talking about this. That would have been February of 2023. And even back then without, like, we didn't know much at that point. He said that this was targeted. He said it was about one of the girls and that he thought whoever it was, like, Kohberger had been rejected by her. And when he talks, when he does his training, he Sundays there are four profile types of offenders. And when he was like, looking at this, he's like, I think Kohberger is the offender type, which is categorized as an anger retaliatory type. Like, it's just that anger that drives them and they can't stop until the anger is gone. But once that anger is gone, it's like they turn off. Like, they don't have to kill anymore. So I asked him, I'm like, so why does he leave two other people or at least one other person that he knows of in the house? The person who sees him and zip's like, I mean, he didn't have to.
- [81:27]
Britt
Like, he's done.
- [81:28]
Ashley Flowers
Anger's been released. His motivation for killing is gone, basically. Now the way in which he speculated it happened was a little different because he thought that maybe he was like, killing people in the house until he got to the person he was looking for. So if we're going to say that's Maddie, like, everyone who's in his way until he could get that anger out. But we know now that police don't suspect that's how it happened. They don't suspect that she was the last one who died. So I don't know. I just thought it was interesting because it kind of fits, like, what he's saying kind of fits with what seems to be the going theory, at least. Like we said with, like, among family and friends. Kohberger is set to be sentenced next week on July 23rd. That's also when the families are going to have a chance to read their victim impact statements. This will be their chance to be heard. So our team is actually going to keep following this story. We're going to have that hearing streamed on the crime junkie jury YouTube channel as well. So if you want to follow along with us, make sure you go there. And we are going to try and bring you more updates as they come, probably mostly on social. So make sure to follow Crime Junkie podcast on Instagram. But I mean, if we get something big, we'll put it here in the feed. We. When we started this, we reached out to almost every person involved or connected to this case, but nobody wanted to talk before because everyone thought they were gearing up for a trial, or at least that's what I think. But maybe after the sentencing, people will be more open because I do have a feeling that people within the departments who spent their days and weeks and months and years building this case and trying to bring justice, I think they want to be able to talk. And some may have done so off the record already because there was. I don't know if you caught it. There was a Dateline special in May that caused this huge frenzy because they released a bunch of details that they clearly got from someone who was close to the case. And remember there was a gag order. So the judge on the case was furious. Like, they somehow got their hands on Kohberger's Internet history. And that was disturbing. I mean, the guy outright searched sociopathic traits in college student. And that was in September before the murders. And then in the weeks before and after, he was searching terms like passed out, drugged sleeping, and forced. Dateline also reported that Kohberger had dozens of photos of girls and women, many who were in bikinis, and they weren't just like random people. Authorities confirmed that they were students from the University of Idaho and Washington State University, some of whom apparently knew the victims. In another Internet search in October, he wrote, can psychopaths behave prosocially? So these are all things that the prosecution would have had before trial. So while we won't ever know exactly what they planned to argue, I think it gives us a good idea of where they were going. And, you know, one of the things I think about too is all of the victims were in like sororities or fraternities. And when you go back to that.
- [84:36]
Britt
Elliot Rodger, he attacked a sorority in like the surrounding areas. So did we ever get an idea of what the defense strategy was going to be? Or do you think they were hoping that Brian would accept a plea? It just took a while to convince him.
- [84:52]
Ashley Flowers
I watched some of the pre trial hearings where we got like a glimpse at their plan. It was like they needed to take this plea. So it seems like they were gonna say that Bryan Kohberger was out stargazing the night of the murders.
- [85:08]
Britt
That literally explains nothing.
- [85:13]
Ashley Flowers
Why your phone is off, maybe like not even that, a stretch.
- [85:17]
Britt
Certainly doesn't explain the sheath of your knife, your DNA being there.
- [85:24]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, the prosecution had a strong case against him, and I assume they saw the writing on the wall. And isn't it wild how when death is on the table, murderers suddenly get so scared? Like, it's unbelievable to me, and I know that is what mattered to him because the defense had even tried several motions to strike the death penalty before his plea deal, with the latest reason being that Kohberger is a person with autism. Now, it's not clear when he was diagnosed, but they were trying to argue that his diagnosis exposes him to the risk that he would have been wrongfully convicted and then put to death. Meaning that his limited, like, facial expressions and him being stoic, his stare, which had already been dubbed sinister. They're saying that like all of those are attributes they say he has and that could have affected the jury's perception of his guilt and that is why they wanted the death penalty out. That got denied, too. They even tried to argue the IGG staff, they were like, the way you identified him, like the way the FBI seized the trash outside of his parents place was a violation of his fourth amendment rights because police didn't get a search warrant before doing like any of that. But the court denied that too, and said that he had no reasonable expectation of privacy.
- [86:42]
Britt
Yeah, I knew that. I've watched a crime show before.
- [86:46]
Ashley Flowers
I know. And then the defense also tried to present an alternate suspect defense, but that got denied too.
- [86:53]
Britt
Wait, who would they even bring forward?
- [86:56]
Ashley Flowers
They said that there were four other people who could have done this. I don't know who, because again, that got denied and then the motion got sealed. We just know that these other people apparently knew the victims or interacted with the victims before the murders. One other, like, Hail Mary thing they tried to do, which I don't even really understand, is they tried to ban the words bushy eyebrows from being used at trial. Denied. Again. They argued that police didn't say anything to a judge about the unidentified samples of DNA found at the scene when they requested Coburger's arrest warrant in December of 2020. And basically they say that detectives left it out when the judge was deciding if there was enough probable cause and they thought authorities were trying to mislead the judge, so they wanted to throw out the whole indictment altogether. And that didn't work. The authors of the Idaho four Book say Bryan Coburger nearly carried out the perfect crime had he not left the knife sheath with his DNA on it. Thankfully for the families, he did. And I think that is who we want to remember in all of this, the victims and their families, some who wanted their day in court and will never get it now. Kaylee and Maddie were both college seniors, best friends since sixth grade. And Kaylee was just about to head off to live in Austin, Texas and start a new job. She was only there that night visiting Maddie to celebrate some of their last college moments together. Not realizing how final those were. Kaylee's sister told NBC's Today show that she had everything going for her. Zanna was a junior studying marketing and her sister described her to Wapt as light hearted and someone who always lifted up a room. She often introduced herself as Xana, like Xanax without the X. And she was very much in love with freshmen Ethan Chapin. Ethan was just starting his college experience, but he and Zanna were already planning a life together. He was inseparable from his triplet siblings, Maisie and Hunter. And they said in the Amazon docu series that he was their natural leader. And after his murder, they had to return to the University of Idaho without him. His mom Stacy said that it was only a week before the murders that she had fled. Finally felt like her kids were in a great place. Like, it's got to be so hard, right, to like send your kids off for the very first time. And she's like, she was just in the place where she's like, I feel good. They're going to become such bright adults now. Maddie, she was a senior and a marketing major. She was an only child. And her parents pride and joy. And her dad, Ben Mogan, spoke at a vigil for the four victims in 2022 and said that everything Maddie did was such a big deal to him. Her mom Karen has even kept Maddie's room exactly as it was when she died. She said in the documentary that she has no plans to ever change it and her family supports the plea deal and maybe there will be more answers down the line. But the deal for them is a step towards hope and healing. Something that all the victims, families and friends deserve. And it's a shame we know their names this way. But they will be remembered by for years, if not generations to come and not just for the way in which they died. They are also being honored by two foundations. So there was one set up called Ethan's Smile was set up in honor of Ethan and made with Kindness was set up in honor of Kaylee, Maddie and Zanna. Both organizations provide educational scholarships among other initiatives and we made donations to both and we're going to put a link in the show notes to both of these if you would like to sign up support as well. But you know there was a University of Idaho student who I think has been lost to time. Not in this case. I'm talking decades before. Her name was Kristin David and in 1981 she was found dismembered wrapped in newspapers and plastic bags in the Snake River. Her case has always been associated with four other disappearances and deaths in the area that's known as the Lewis Clark Valley. Now locals and authorities think there is a serial killer who was at work back then and even though they had a suspect, they just couldn't prove it. So a lot of those victims have been forgotten, but not on our watch. The Idaho 4 case is now solved. So now I need to direct your attention to another case in the same area because here's the scary part. That guy, the one they think might have been a serial killer back in the 80s, he's still out there and most people around him are none the wiser because his name isn't widely known like Bryan Kohberger's. But all that changes next week. So be sure you do not miss next Monday's episode. And if you want to listen early and ad free, you can join the fan club. New episodes released there three days early and with zero ads. So we'll see you there. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website crimejunkiepat.
- [92:21]
Britt
D and you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.
- [92:26]
Ashley Flowers
See you next week for that brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an Audio Chuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?
- [93:13]
E
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- [93:45]
Ashley Flowers
Hi everyone, Ashley Flowers here. If you love diving into mysteries and exploring the unexplained, but sometimes wonder if the answers lie just beyond the edge of what we know, your next listen should be so supernatural. Every week I handpick the most bizarre mind bending mysteries for my friends. Rasha and Yvette to look into. From eerie disappearances to encounters that defy expectations, explanation. Rasha and Yvette dive deep into every possibility. Paranormal, scientific, and everything in between. So if you're ready to explore the unknown, then join us on so supernatural. Over 100 episodes are available now, and new stories are explored every Friday. Listen to so Supernatural now Wherever you listen to podcasts.