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Crime Junkie
MISSING: Marilyn “Niqui” McCown
01:16:10
Marilyn “Niqui” McCown was the first missing person’s case covered on Crime Junkie. Now, nearly 25 years after she vanished, fresh reporting uncovers never-before-heard details from police files that challenge everything we thought we knew. What if Niqui’s story never truly ended — and the answers are still closer than anyone realized?
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, crime Junkies, it's Britt. If you're like me and you're ready to dive into even more cases, there's another podcast I think you're gonna love. Park Predators. In Park Predators, host Delia d' Ambret dives into the haunting crimes that happen in some of the most beautiful and unexpected places across the globe. Delia has helped host a couple of episodes of Crime Junkie in the past. And if you've listened to her before, you already know her investigative approach brings the facts of each case and their chilling details to life, making Park Predators the perfect mix of captivating and informative storytelling. So once you're done with this episode of Crime Junkie, go check out Park Predators. New episodes drop every week. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:44]
B
Hi, crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
- [00:47]
A
And I'm Britt.
- [00:48]
B
And today I am bringing you a special episode. If you recognize the name Marilyn Nikki McCown, then you have either been with us since the very beginning, or you've made it all the way through our archives. Because Nikki's story was the very first one I ever told on Crime Junkie. Back in December of 2017, before we even knew what this show would become, before the millions of you listening now, and long before we had a team of investigative reporters digging into these cases. And her case really shaped the future of what this show would become, because I remember, Brit. I'm sure you do, too.
- [01:26]
A
I can tell you where I was.
- [01:27]
B
Standing the day after that episode dropped. Nikki's daughter Peyton reached out to me, said that she listened, said she was grateful for the attention, but, you know, there was more to the story. I drove all the way up to Richmond, Indiana. I met with her, and I held that conversation with me every day for the next eight years. This reminder that even when we had no following, the people who lived these stories would be listening to these stories. I never forgot her. I never forgot her mom. And I kept tabs on the case the whole time, but not much had changed eight years later. So I had this idea back in 2017. This show was a lot different. It's evolved so much over that time, and maybe it's hard to notice unless you binge. So I wanted to really show everyone how far we've come to thank you, our listeners, for showing up every week, for caring, and for giving us the resources to grow. And I want to show you how we put those resources to work. Because what started out as me and Britt here just retelling a story that's already been told. Like many true crime shows do. This is now a full fledged investigative reporting operation with a team of people, team of reporters to bring you never before heard details on cases that you thought you knew. Like this one. So little by little, over the last year, me and the team have been digging into this case, the with fresh eyes. And now I'm here to bring you the real story of Nikki McCown with never before released information that you aren't going to believe. And I think at the end of this, you're going to realize that this case that once had an ending might not be as tightly wrapped up as we thought. It's been almost 25 years since Nikki McCown went missing and over eight years since we first told her story. So let me start by refreshing everyone on what we knew back then. So on July 22, 2001, Nikki and her fiance Bobby Webster went to church with plans to wrap up their wedding invitations together. Later that day, after the service, Nikki went back to the apartment that she shared with Bobby. She changed into some casual clothes, like a pink top and biker shorts, loaded up Bobby's GMC with dirty clothes, and then drove to the Richmond Coin Laundry on Southeast E Street. Something that had become kind of like a weekly ritual. Now, just before 2pm A witness saw Nikki inside the building, the laundromat. Then 15 minutes later, security footage captured her at the nearby Village Pantry convenience store getting changed, I'm assuming for the laundry machines. Now, before she left, she looked totally normal. Things seemed fine, but they obviously didn't stay that way because just a little while later, we know that Nikki got back in her car when and drove this short distance to her parents house where she told her mom that she felt uncomfortable. Some guys at the Laundromat had been bothering her, like wouldn't leave her alone.
- [04:59]
A
Well, and her mom even offered to finish the laundry up at her place, right?
- [05:02]
B
Yeah, she said she could like take it out, dry it there, whatever. Cause she had a machine at her place. But Nikki didn't. So she goes back and according to the Dayton Daily news, at about 3pm Someone sees her back at the laundromat. But I don't think they're like, whoever's seeing her, the witness, they're like staying there or have eyes on her for a long time because we just have this like brief confirmation that she's there at three and then that's it. We don't know when she finished or if she left or when she left or if she left alone. We just Know that as the afternoon wore on, she never made it back to her apartment, didn't return to her parents house to pick up her then 9 year old daughter Peyton. And by early evening, her family had started to worry and they began calling around trying to find her. And with no luck, they end up filing a missing persons report with the Richmond police that next morning. And even though she was in the prime of her life with a daughter, she was about to get married. Like, I mean, the wedding was just around the corner. She had no history of disappearing like this. For some reason, the family said the police didn't initially think that something bad had happened. They kind of figured that she would just come home when she was ready.
- [06:08]
A
Well, and if I remember, they actually kind of used the wedding thing against her. They thought this was like a case of cold feet. She was like freaking out and kind of just peaced out because of that.
- [06:17]
B
Yeah, I mean, they had nothing else telling them differently. And so with the wedding just weeks away, this whole like runaway bride theory was a convenient narrative, right?
- [06:27]
A
But her family never bought that. And they even told the police about her getting harassed, right?
- [06:31]
B
Oh yeah, they told police. But there was no hint of a struggle at the laundromat, no hard evidence left behind. So they kind of waited it out a little to see if she turned back up. But the more time that passed, the more concerning things got. There was no activity on her bank accounts, no trace of the car that she'd been driving in those first days. It was up to Nikki's family to organize search parties. They got dozens of volunteers to comb the wooded areas and the back roads around Richmond, Indiana. And they passed out as many flyers as they could. And one of the people helping pass out flyers was of course Nikki's fiance, Bobby Webster. But outside of that, he wasn't really participating in any of the searches. And probably because he was too busy doing some really eyebrow raising things at a moment when optics mattered. According to police accounts, within days of Nikki disappearing, Bobby contacted the community college that Nikki was attending to ask about her unused tuition. Like, what would happen to it? Could he get a refund?
- [07:36]
A
Kind of like he's sure she's not going to be going to class anymore.
- [07:40]
B
And he must be pretty sure they're not getting married either, because he also went to a jeweler and returned Nikki's engagement ring. Even canceled their reception venue for a refund within a week. Now at the time, his excuse was that he just really needed the money. With Nikki being gone and her not.
- [07:57]
A
Working and his Car was missing with her.
- [08:00]
B
I guess it was, but that's not like a factor in the money thing. Nikki had her own car and he had a key to that. So he'd been using her. So he had a car that shouldn't have been like a money factor. Basically, he just needed to, like, pay the bills or whatever. Like, they weren't well off. They're kind of living paycheck to paycheck. So without her paycheck or, I mean, like, we're talking days. But he knows her paycheck isn't going to be coming, right?
- [08:20]
C
Does he?
- [08:22]
B
He thought money was just going to be tight, but he insisted he was devastated by her disappearance and had no idea where she could be. Now, like I said, this is all happening over the first few days of Nikki coming up missing. And when police start getting more involved, they look at what Bobby's been doing and they become suspicious of his actions, too. So they ask him to come in and take a polygraph. Now, when he does, police say that he failed an important question. One along the lines of, did you have anything to do with or know anything about Nikki's disappearance? His response was, no, but according to the polygraph, it said, that's a lie. Now, later on, Bobby came out and said, that is not what or how they asked him. He said that the way the question was phrased was something more like, do you feel responsible for her going missing? And he said, like, well, how would any man not feel partially responsible for not being there when something happens to your fiance, your woman? Now, I can't find where police ever came out and confirm or deny any of this. Is it like they said? Is it like Bobby said? Is it somewhere in the middle? Which kind of just left everyone with a lot of questions about Bobby, but no physical proof tying him to a crime.
- [09:35]
A
Well, and he had an alibi, right?
- [09:38]
B
Kind of. I mean, that's what I remember knowing back then. Like, after church, he said that he met up with a cousin, and his cousin drove them to the Richmond Square Mall to get fitted for wedding tuxes. They're together for like an hour and a half or so. And then Bobby said that he made a couple of pit stops at people's houses before going home between like 5:30 and 5:45, where he expected to meet Nikki. They were going to finish up those wedding invites, but she just never showed. So, yes, he has an alibi. You know, there's a little bit of wiggle room in there. And with that, with the quote unquote failed, Paulie after he gets talked to by police, he kind of just remains in this gray space that investigators like to call person of interest. Now, while searches continued for Nikki, detectives went back to the Laundromat a week later to interview regulars. No one saw anything that was suspicious, not even in hindsight. And more importantly, no one seemed to know anything about the men who may have been messing with Nikki. By this point, Indiana State Police stepped in to help a little by putting up a helicopter to sweep across Richmond, Indiana, and the surrounding area. They're hunting for the vehicle she was in, a 1990 black and gray GMC. Jimmy. The thinking was, find the car, find Nikki, or at least be one step closer to where she is. But week after week, the sky, the ground, it all offered nothing. And it turns out that's because the car wasn't in Indiana. You see Richmond, Indiana, you know, this is right on the eastern border of the state, bumping against Ohio. So it's not uncommon for people who live in Richmond to work in Dayton, Ohio. Cause that's the closest big city. Nikki is one of those people. She worked at a prison there, even lived in Dayton before.
- [11:23]
A
Yeah, and this is all kind of in the same bubble for Richmond locals, I think.
- [11:27]
B
Yes. But jurisdictional lines are pretty solid. And so since every indication pointed to Nikki going missing from the laundromat in Indiana, no one was really paying much attention to Ohio. I mean, they could go, like, talk to people in Ohio who knew her and stuff. And I think they did what they could, like getting a hold of her ex, her co workers, her friends. But the focus was definitely not on Dayton. So this big clue got missed for months, from July 22, all the way to November 3, 2001. That is when someone just happened to stumble upon this vital clue that had just been sitting there casually, as if it had been waiting to be found all along. The GMC was parked at the Meadows of Catalpa Apartments, roughly 45 minutes from Richmond. Now, the reason the vehicle gets spotted is that one of the doors was left open, which catches the eye of a Montgomery county sheriff's deputy. He eventually runs the plates and sees that the car was flagged for a missing persons case. So when Richmond PD gets notified and gets out there, they note that the door lock was damaged, the ignition had been tampered with, and the stereo was missing. So someone had gone through the car, but they didn't take everything left behind. In the backseat was a laundry basket with folded clothes. And this changed so much. Nikki's family first thought something May have happened to her at the Laundromat or, like, right as she was leaving or coming or going, whatever. But this made it seem like maybe she had, you know, finished up there, completely made it to wherever she was going on her own. But where that was, Lord only knows. I mean, at least police had a starting point. Before now, all of Richmond and Dayton and everywhere in between were in the mix. However, the complex where this vehicle was found had to mean something. I mean, first of all, the driver's seat was positioned in a way that fit Nikki's petite frame. So they're thinking, you know, she may have actually driven the car here herself. But more importantly, she knew not just this general area well, but this specific complex. She used to live there, and her ex, Stephen Johnston, still lived there when the car was found. There was no way that this was a coincidence. So Richmond police went straight to Steven, who admitted his relationship with Nikki back in the day had been rocky. But he swore he had no idea where she was or what happened to her, and that the first time he'd even seen the GMC there was on.
- [14:04]
A
The news, which I remember being kind of side eye about this, like, having a hard time understanding it. Like, he had to have known that everyone was looking for his missing ex. Like, not just his missing ex, his daughter's mother. And, like, the car is in the complex. Like, how does no one see this car? How does he not see this car?
- [14:24]
B
Well, I mean, it is possible that the car wasn't there the whole time or where it was, wasn't in an area that, like, he or everyone passed regularly. I mean, this was a big complex. And, yes, it's a little weird that he didn't see it because, like, I did get a glimpse of some of the footage from Richmond Police, like, their evidence footage that was put on an episode of Disappeared on Investigation Discovery. And the car is, like, not hidden by any means. But it would almost be weirder to me if he had something to do with it and then, like, left the car in his own complex.
- [14:54]
A
Oh, totally. And I actually don't think he's the most likely culprit. I mean, not to jump the gun on, like, all your storytelling here, but we know he fully cooperated, submitted DNA, passed the polygraph. He was cleared pretty quickly.
- [15:07]
B
Yeah, right.
- [15:07]
A
So the car being there almost feels like a setup, which maybe someone parked it in a place where he wouldn't see it for that reason. But it still blows my mind that it was there for months.
- [15:17]
B
If it was there for months. I mean, the only thing we knew regarding the timing in those early days was that police believed the car was likely broken into sometime after it was abandoned there. Totally unrelated to Nikki's disappearance. So we knew it was there for at least a little bit of time, but nothing more than that in those early days.
- [15:34]
A
But we don't know actually how long, especially cause they weren't looking in Ohio at all.
- [15:38]
B
So if it wasn't Steven who put it there, which we're saying we don't think it was, it may have been someone who knew that he lived there or at least knew that Nikki used to live there. Maybe they knew about her and Steven's rough relationship. That is someone who has to know you pretty well, right? Well, as detectives dug into her life in Dayton, one name kept coming up in their interviews. Someone who worked with Nikki and lived nearby. 34 year old Tommy Swind, who is a corrections officer at the facility where Nikki was employed, the Montgomery Education and Pre Release Center. Now Tommy had a reputation for being close to her, maybe too close. Some coworkers, friends, family described his behavior as protective, innocent, like a big brother figure. Someone she had known for like five plus years. But others called his behavior or feelings toward Nikki obsessive. Nikki's sister, Michelle McCown Luster, said that Tommy had actually even sent lingerie to Nikki's bridal shower just weeks before she disappeared. If you remember, she also said that one time years before she walked in on Tommy pinning Nikki against a chair and Nikki had her like foot on his chest screaming for help. Something that Tommy tried to like laugh off as just playing around. And this is all sus, but kind of like with Bobby, it didn't go anywhere. They couldn't prove that he'd moved the car or did something to Nikki so he didn't stay in the hot seat. And that's really kind of where Nikki's case seemed to stall.
- [17:13]
A
Did they end up getting any physical evidence from the GMC that they could use?
- [17:17]
B
Well, early on they never said too much publicly. But if they got anything, like when you think about it, if it came back to either of the two persons of interest, Tommy or Bobby, I don't think it would have helped much. Like it's Bobby's car in the first place. Like, yeah, of course there's going to be like some sign of him in the vehicle. And Tommy had been friends with her for five or so years. Like he could easily write that off too. But they weren't writing him off completely. They had over the years kind of been keeping Tabs on him. And lo and behold, in 2007, this dude pops back up on the radar. Not in Nikki's case or even for another crime. No. They got word that he was employed as a police officer in Trotwood, Ohio. So Richmond police decide that they probably need to phone a friend here. They call up Trotwood PD and they're like, hey, don't know if this came up in, like, the interview process. Process, but that guy you just hired, he is a person of interest in one of our cases. Like, maybe not somebody you want on your squad. They agree, and basically, they forced Tommy to resign. But this man did not want to go quietly. He filed a lawsuit against Richmond PD and several officials, multiple newspapers, along with two reporters alleging defamation. His whole thing was like. He says he was never informed that he was a suspect or a person of interest in Nikki's case and that pretty much everyone from the prison where they all worked had been questioned. So he just thought that was, like, par for the course. But here's the thing. In stirring this pot, he pushed himself into local headlines. And all this renewed attention finally triggered something investigators never saw coming. A new tip.
- [19:03]
A
A new tip, but not in Nikki's case.
- [19:06]
B
But there would be a connection. So in late 2007, an informant reached out to Dayton police and said, you should look at Tommy for something much older. The unsolved 1991 murder of Tina Marie Ivory. She was a 33 year old woman found beaten and strangled, wrapped in trash bags and a quilt dumped near a road outside Dayton. Now, at first, this seems like a long shot, but the crime lab had preserved DNA from the scene for nearly two decades. Semen and blood. What they didn't have was a suspect to compare it to.
- [19:38]
A
But now they do.
- [19:39]
B
Yeah. And they get him using Nikki's case. So he's out here raising hell, being like, I didn't know police were even looking at me. I have nothing to do with this case involving Nikki. So Richmond PD are like, okay, like, you know, to help it. Yeah. To help prove your case. Give us your DNA. And he does, not knowing that Dayton police are the ones intending to use it. So they take his DNA and the lab matches it to the semen on the clothing Tina Ivory was found in. And the blood evidence found on the quilt that she was wrapped in was either consistent with him or, like, couldn't exclude him, depending on, like, what source you're looking at. Now, Tina did sex work for a living, so the semen was good evidence, but not great. Like, it could be argued away. And the blood wasn't a slam dunk either. So they needed something to, like, really nail him. And that's when they reexamined tape used to bind Tina. And they uncovered a never before seen print that was his. So all of this played out over years. You know, this stuff doesn't happen fast. So it wasn't until early 2010 that a Montgomery county grand jury issued an indictment charging Tommy Swint with Tina Ivory's murder. Investigators believe they finally had their suspect. Not just for Tina's 1991 homicide, but possibly for Nikki's, too. But by then, Tommy was living far away from the Midwest. He was down in Phoenix City, Alabama. Now, he had been questioned about Tina over the years as they were, like, doing all that testing. So when law enforcement from Alabama came knocking on February 3rd to arrest him, he must have known why they were there. And before they could make it inside, a gunshot rang out. Tommy had taken his own life. He left no confession, no explanation, no answers about Tina or about Nikki. But for many people, his actions said more than enough. And that moment became the unofficial end of Nikki's story. The obsessed co worker with the violent past no one knew about had finally been exposed. End episode roll credits. But we have been doing this a long time now, together. You and me and the crime junkies. And I might have bought that ending in 2017 when I was green. But after covering more than 600 cases, including those in the fan club, and building out a team of investigative reporters, I know an ending like that is too vague to hang your hat on. After all, we still haven't found Nikki. So I got to wondering. With our resources now, could our team dig up any. Anything that changes this case? Are we looking in the right places? Are we sure that we landed on the right suspect? When we reach out to Nikki's family to see if they'd be interested in us revisiting her case, I was actually kind of shocked to learn that they themselves had already been asking those same questions. For them, Tommy's sudden death didn't settle anything. And in the aftermath, some of them have become far more suspicious of someone else. So they welcomed our help. And sometimes I think if you're in the right place at the right time, the universe just lines up perfectly. Because even though every records request and interview request was denied by Richmond pd, a trusted source gave us some of the case reports that shed a whole new light on every detail of this case, starting with at the very beginning.
- [23:12]
A
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- [24:33]
B
In those first few days after Nikki had gone missing, I told you that Nikki's family was suspicious of Bobby. He was never as helpful as they expected him to be. He wasn't really doing much to help them look for her. Instead, he was busy returning Nikki's ring, trying to get her tuition money, and canceling their wedding. Oh, and watching movies. Or maybe just one movie. But he watched it enough times to be Concerning Nikki's sister. Michelle told us that Bobby was practically fixated on this one particular movie, one that she felt was absurdly inappropriate considering the situation. I don't know if you've seen this one, but it's a movie from 2000 called the Gift.
- [25:14]
A
As in the Gift with Katie Holmes, the one where she has a jealous fiance who becomes a suspect after she goes missing.
- [25:21]
B
That's the one, okay. Which, like, can you imagine? You are out searching for your missing sister and you walk in on her unhelpful fiance watching the gif. Michelle said she remembers standing there just like in shock, watching him just like play this same movie, thinking, like, why this one? Why now? Why?
- [25:42]
A
I would say repeatedly over and over.
- [25:44]
B
And he's not Even hiding it. But, like, nothing he was doing felt normal or appropriate for the situation. I mean, she told us that his emotions never seemed to match the moment. One minute he would be sobbing, and then the next he seemed totally fine. Like he could switch it on and off. It didn't feel real to her. In 2024, news outlet Dayton 247 now obtained Bobby's 2001 interview with Richmond PD. And there is this moment where, in my opinion, I hear what Michelle is talking about. And I'm actually going to play a little snippet for everyone here.
- [26:17]
D
Any thoughts where she could be at all?
- [26:21]
B
Nothing at all.
- [26:22]
D
I mean, give me a. I don't want to sit and go, maybe another guy. I do hope it's another guy. I can deal with that pain. Pain that I can deal with is not knowing. I don't know if she's hungry. I don't know if she's. If she's what? Just sitting over, just can't eat. I don't know this. And I'm sitting around trying. Yeah, I'm just hoping it's another guy. I could deal with that pain. I just don't. I'm sick of everyone going to psychics. Oh, they've done that, too. It's okay until the phone rings at her sisters. I can't stay at my house. It's okay until the phone rings. Then it's like, what is it now? What? Dead end. Are we headed out now?
- [27:00]
B
There are a few moments like that where he sounds like he wants to cry, but then maybe doesn't, though. Like, I can't tell because it's audio only, but even tells police he's all cried out because he's just been crying for three days straight before they came to talk to him. Now, Michelle didn't see that in the first three days. And when she tried to press him about the day Nikki went missing, July 22, she said that his answers seemed very surface level. It was like the same basic outline repeated again and again. Church, wedding, errands back home. But he does get more detailed with police. In his interview, he says that after church, he and Nikki went home. She changed into her casual clothes. She took his car because it was a gas guzzler and unreliable. So since she was just going a few miles away to the laundromat, she took his with, like a quarter of a tank of gas in it, and he took her Toyota sedan to go run his errands. He also tells police that he gave her $10 to cover laundry. It usually costs about six to do the three loads that she was planning. But he also found two quarters, like right before she was leaving. Gave her that too. He said that he drove to someone else's house to meet his cousin. Cousin wasn't there. So he drives to another house. On the way, he passes the laundromat, sees the GMC there. He says this is about to 15ish. Now he ends up finding his cousin, hops into his cousin's car to go to the Richmond Square Mall where they do the whole tuxes thing. And then he says he's at the jewelry store in the mall by like 2:45 or 3:00'. Clock. And he even tells police, like, they should have him on surveillance footage at the mall. But whether police ever verified that and got the footage is tbd. There's nothing saying that they did in what we have. He says after the jewelry store they left and he was taken back to his car. And by like 3:30 or 3:45, he was passing back by the laundromat and this time the GMC was gone. So he figured, you know, Nikki's done. Now he stops by a few houses before getting home at around 5:30, maybe 5:45. But he notes that he wasn't really paying attention to the times. And then he just kind of hung out at their apartment waiting for Nikki and watching Any Given Sunday on tv. To me, this isn't a super strong alibi, especially if we believe that Nikki left the laundromat alive and well, she is last seen there by somebody at around like three o', clock, remember?
- [29:16]
A
Well, and he's literally putting himself right there where she was at 3:30, 3:45.
- [29:23]
B
And that is especially interesting, knowing what I found in the case report. There is a witness who apparently places Bobby at the laundromat with Nikki. This woman tells police that she walked into Richmond Coin Laundry on the day that Nikki vanished. Now, apparently she was just trying to use the payphone when she saw Nikki at the entrance talking to a black man. She didn't know who he was, didn't think much of it, not until investigators circled back to her years later and asked her to review this six photo lineup. They explained the process. Tell her, you know, take your time. But she doesn't need time. She immediately points to photo number six, Bobby Webster, and she indicates, that is the man I saw talking to Nikki. Now, what can you do with an ID that comes like four years later and after your person of interest has been in the news for this case? Right. Like, probably not A lot. Even though the woman says that she didn't know who he was, never saw him. Other than that one time talking to Nikki and then in the photo lineup. But without corroboration from other witnesses, her ID Just kind of sits there. An explosive claim if real left inside the case report. But now that we know about it, we wondered if there was maybe more strange behavior that Bobby exhibited after Nikki went missing. Now, up until this point, all we really had were Nikki's family's suspicions, which, like, valid. But we really wanted to find somebody not in her family who could give us some kind of outside perspective. And side note, I'm also desperately on the hunt for a TV guide that covers July 22, 2001, to see if any given Sunday was playing on TV. You don't know how hard I look for this.
- [31:07]
A
You are usually really good at finding old publications.
- [31:10]
B
I found one for all the cable channels, but not for, like, the basic channels. I am desperate, so if anyone out there knows, hit me up. But what we did find was a woman named Kim who knew Bobby since childhood and actually ended up having a fling with him about a year after Nikki went missing. And what Kim said that she witnessed has never sat right with her. Now, Kim went to the same church as Bobby and Nikki. She had seen them both the morning of July 22nd at service. And she remembers Bobby practically glowing about the wedding. So, like, no red flags before. But a few days later, after word about Nikki was out, he showed up at her door and something just felt wrong. She said that she remembers he was wearing Nikki's engagement ring and wedding band around his neck, even though Kim swears that she saw Nikki wearing them on the day that she disappeared, like she was wearing them at church.
- [32:05]
A
Are we talking about one of the rings that he returned to the jewelry store or something else?
- [32:09]
B
No. Yeah, he ends up returning her engagement ring on the 27th. So they're like five days between her disappearing and then him returning it, and Bobby's at her door only, like, days after. Whatever. And listen, it was weird to her. There could be a straightforward explanation here. I mean, according to Bobby himself, in his interview with police, he said that Nikki took her rings off before she would do laundry, and he said she did that day. And this seemed likely because in the case report that we have, it mentions that Nikki wasn't wearing anything on her left hand from what detectives could tell in the surveillance footage. But still, Kim couldn't make sense of it because the explanation that Bobby gave her at first didn't match the one that he gave her later. Like, at first, he said the rings were too loose, so she was worried about them, like, falling off while doing laundry. But then in 2002, he told her that she'd taken them off because she'd gained weight and they were too tight.
- [33:01]
A
Which isn't just like a different explanation, it's the opposite.
- [33:05]
B
Right. And Kim also said that when she offered to help search for Nicki, Bobby told her not to bother, that it would be a waste of time. And what really spooked her was when Bobby started saying that Nikki was already dead, talking about her being an angel. And Kim just could not understand why he would be talking like that, especially when, in her opinion, it was early on enough where there was still every reason to hope that she was going to be coming out.
- [33:31]
A
Yeah.
- [33:32]
B
So with all her uneasy feelings, like, building up eventually, when they were seeing each other, Kim did something that I think most people in her position might not have the nerve to do. She looked square at Bobby and asked him point blank if he killed Nikki. According to Kim, Bobby didn't answer. He didn't deny it. He didn't defend himself. He just broke down crying. Kim told us that moment stayed with her for years and deeply disturbed her. She didn't ask him again. And they ended things shortly after this. Yeah, obviously. And for years, she didn't have much contact with Bobby. But then one day, around early 2021, so not that long ago, she gets this phone call from Bobby. Out of the blue. He's telling her, you know, he's broke, he's out of work, he's unable to get hired because of his connection to Nikki's case. Like, it's always, like, followed him. And he begged her to let him come stay with her. Kim's like, I don't know. But she agreed to at least, like, talk to him. And what followed was a conversation that lasted over eight hours that left her seeing him and the case very differently. Kim says that during this long call with Bobby, she learned more information about him and Nikki and their relationship than she had ever been aware of in all the years she'd known him. He claimed that Nikki and Tommy Swint were lovers. What? And when she asked how he would know that, he told her it was because he'd been following them, watching them, seeing things that he never confronted Nikki about because he didn't want them to be true. And Kim couldn't believe what she was hearing. This felt like a man unraveling, like, revealing a side of himself that she had never Seen before someone jealous enough to stalk the woman he loved. So by the time Bobby finished talking, Kim said that she knew one thing for sure. He was not coming into her home. Whatever darkness he was carrying, she wanted no part of it. Kim said that Bobby kept reaching out, but then seemed to give up after she stopped responding altogether. And then, just a couple of months after that call, Bobby died of a heart attack.
- [35:49]
A
Do police know about this? I mean, I know a heart attack isn't like an expected event, but this feels almost like. It feels like a deathbed confession.
- [35:58]
B
I don't know what this was, but, like, Kim held the weight of it for a few years until she just couldn't anymore. She told us that it was after listening to Bobby's taped interview that was made public online, part of the one that you heard earlier. She said that she heard that and she felt compelled to come forward. So she says that she spoke with Richmond Detective Mike Wright about her concerns.
- [36:19]
A
But now Bobby's dead, so, like, what can they even do?
- [36:23]
B
Exactly. And listen, Kim is clear. None of this is proof. This is only her experience. But based on everything she saw and everything Bobby told her, she could no longer reconcile the longtime friend that she thought she knew with the man on the other side of that line during their last conversation. And girls, same. Like, I'll link out to Bobby's full interview with police. But I bet what rubbed her the wrong way is what I had a hard time with, too, in this interview. He's like, oh, you know, I hope there's another guy. I hope, like, that's the reason. At least she would be okay. I mean, you heard him. But he says he didn't know about anything. And he mentions Tommy Swinn, but, like, as one of her friends in line with a bunch of other people, never says a word about knowing they were having an affair or about following them. So if he knew that while he was sitting in the room with those detectives, then he was bold face, lying to them. Why? But here's the thing. As recently as 2024, Detective Wright told Dateline that Bobby is no longer considered a person of interest in this case. But when we tried asking police that same question ourselves, if Bobby was officially cleared, how he was eliminated. As of this recording, we have not heard back. Now, before we let a claim like Nikki and Tommy possibly being lovers reshape this narrative, I want to be absolutely clear about what is fact and what is rumor. We still don't know the true nature of Nikki's relationship with Tommy Swind, who, by the Way was married at the time Nikki vanished. And he was even still married to the same woman when he took his own life after being indicted for Tina's murder. When I look at the case report, like depending on who we talk to, depending on who police talk to, the story of like his relationship with Nikki, it varies. And the files are full of conflicting accounts. I mean there's one person at least who believed that Nikki and Tommy were having an affair. Others insisted they were just close friends. Some say it was all just one sided with Tommy wanting more and Nikki shutting him down. So I am going to get like more into Tommy later, but before him becoming like the foregone conclusion to this case. And after they had looked hard at Bobby, it turns out that there were a lot of people that they looked at in between.
- [38:38]
A
It was only ever Bobby and Tommy. Tommy and Bobby. I thought that was kind of all they had.
- [38:43]
B
That's all we got publicly. But that's never been the full story. And this one is full of winding roads, twisty turns, and more red herrings than one case can handle. But it's been almost 25 years and maybe to find Nikki we, we have to kind of wade through all of that. Starting with a totally out of left field allegation that came about two years after Nikki disappeared when someone tried to inject a brand new theory into the case. One so pointed that if it were true, would turn the entire investigation on its head. In November 2003, detectives received something completely unexpected. An anonymous letter claiming investigators had missed a crucial relationship in Nikki's life. No name was signed to this letter. Just a set of accusations sharp enough to ruin a career or derail an entire investigation. According to the case report, this letter alleged that Nikki had been romantically involved with someone from work and not Tommy Swinton. Not even just an officer like Tommy. This letter named the guy presiding over the entire prison, like the warden. The warden. And the letter claimed that the two had some sort of secret relationship, that they had argued before she disappeared, and that there were rumors he didn't want her getting married. And just to make things even stranger, this letter was signed only with the number 634-5789.
- [40:22]
A
What is that, like a inmate number? A badge number? Like employee agent?
- [40:26]
B
That's what I thought at first too, but it probably is none of the above. The best guess, according to the case report, is that it's referencing a Wilson Pickett soul song where that number is the title. It's a made up phone number, basically like that you can call when you want someone to, like, come over and give you some attention. So if that's what it is. I don't know if the author was doing this as a nod to being anonymous or, like, trying to give some clue that, like, we're not picking up on or if this is just, like, a super weird coincidence and the number actually is something else. I mean, there wasn't, like, a dash in it, like, the song title or, like, a phone number actually would be. So could it be something else? Maybe. But, like, just look at this as a whole. The whole thing, to me feels designed and not like someone trying to help, more like someone trying to steer the investigation.
- [41:16]
A
Almost like a diversion.
- [41:17]
B
Yeah. And the case report states that investigators followed up on this, but they didn't find anything to support it. But did they? Because we reached out to the warden, and he agreed to answer our questions via text, and he was quick to shut down the rumor. And according to him, he had never heard of this letter. Now, it's unclear to me whether, like, police had talked to him or not talked to him, but he was clear that the letter, at least like, that this had never come up. He was surprised by it, which I was kind of shocked that he wouldn't have gotten word of something like this. But he made it clear that he was not romantically involved with Nikki, that there were no arguments of any kind, and that, in his words, she was an exceptional employee who earned high marks on her evaluations.
- [42:03]
A
This is feeling a little bit like the car to me. Like I said before, like a misdirection. Something tells me that figuring out who wrote this letter would be far more telling than who it's implicating.
- [42:16]
B
Yeah, I agree. And I know detectives were able to determine, like, a couple of things about this letter, really, just that it was postmarked from Dayton, Ohio. So, like, again, we're. We're still focused on this Dayton area. That's where the car is found. And I know they tried to process under the flap area for post prints, but they didn't get anything. So, all in all, based on what we have, detectives conclude that, like, this Nikki warden rumor, whatever, isn't true. And the report even, like, notes that the allegations didn't seem credible and that they even say kind of what we're saying, that this appears to be an attempt to push the investigation in a different direction. But it's also worth considering, too, that maybe this was just a hoax, because whoever wrote the letter didn't even spell Nikki's last name correctly.
- [43:01]
A
If it was Someone connected, though, what was going on in the case. Like, right before this letter appeared, I.
- [43:07]
B
Had that same question, because this is coming two years later.
- [43:10]
A
Like, what it feels like kind of cold. Nothing's happening.
- [43:13]
B
Things had stalled by that point. And so I had the exact same thought, like, what is happening? That you're like, oh, I need to do something. Yeah, I don't have all the files. The only note that I see right before this one was from, like, a few weeks before when this body had been found in Owen County, Indiana. Now, it sounds like they were going to run some tests to make sure that it wasn't Nikki. Obviously it didn't end up being her.
- [43:38]
A
But maybe someone panicked.
- [43:40]
B
Right. But like, you would think that if it was someone connected to actually what happened to Nikki, they would know where they put her body and they would know that this one in Owen county wasn't her.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah, I guess.
- [43:50]
B
And like, Owen county, by the way, is like, southwest of Indianapolis. It's a hike from, like, this Richmond.
- [43:56]
A
Daytona area, which is on the east side.
- [43:58]
B
Yeah. Now, maybe they were just getting word that a body had been found. I don't know. Or it's possible this whole thing was a red herring that just, you know, took a lot of time and investigative energy from detectives. And this wasn't the only thing they were running down. What seemed much more promising to me were two separate anonymous tips saying that Nikki's remains were in illegal dump sites closer by. In the first one, the McCown family got a call claiming that Nikki's remains could be located at this site site near the intersection of State Road 320 and U.S. 40 in New Paris, Ohio. Now, the caller refused to give a name or any additional information. And in the second tip, someone anonymously called the Wayne County Sheriff's office, again referencing an illegal dump site over the Ohio state line, possibly even referring to the same one mentioned in the tip before. Now, this second call, investigators were able to trace to this Nebraska based phone number tied to a trucking company. And they, like, started to kind of run this down to see if any of these truckers had ties to the Richmond area or the Dayton area. And it seems like they got it kind of narrowed down, but they were never able to identify who actually made this call. I got kind of obsessed with this one. So our reporters followed this lead, and we got in touch with the company owner's son, and we're like, listen, like, there are these two employees. They. They had it narrowed down to these kind of like, two names. And based on the descriptions he gave us, one of these guys seemed more likely over the other. We still tracked down both guys, but either way, they each denied having anything to do with the call. And they said they didn't know Nikki or anything about the case. And we were even able to, like, figure out exactly what phone the call would have been made from inside the building. It was, like, in this area that was accessible to all employees if they were in town at the time, of course, but with this being so long ago, we couldn't get, like, 100% confirmation to nail down one person. So kind of the way detectives hit a dead end, so did we. And honestly, things really slowed down with this tip. Those come in in 2006, and as they investigate into 2007, that's when things with Tommy start heating back up. Right? This is when they find out he applies or gets a job at Trotwood. And so that's where all the focus ends up going. But before we circle back to him, I have to tell you about something tucked so far down in the narrative of this report. I almost missed it. But the second my eyes hit one name in particular, I froze. Like, I couldn't believe what I was seeing in the case report, because this name was one I knew well. So, you see, after they found the GMC in Daytona, police made a concerted effort to really try to talk to everyone in Dayton who knew Nikki. Right. Well, one of the people that they get in touch with tells them that some woman named Kay told her she ran into someone else. I know this is getting a little confluted, but that someone else told Kay that they were Nikki's godmother. And this godmother said that Nikki had just got cold feet. And, oh, by the way, K has this boyfriend named Jeff Moore. And. And Jeff actually just happened to be friends with this disc jockey who was murdered in Ohio the year before Nikki's disappearance. Her name was Kelly D. Wilson. That stopped me in my tracks, because if anyone's listened to my other podcast, the Deck, they might remember that I covered Kelly's case years ago, and that case is still unsolved. Now, the next note in the report says that they talked to this Jeff guy who's, like, mentioned, and he's like, yeah, I worked construction at the apartment where Kelly was killed, and we were friends. That's it. Like, that's, like, the end of the summary of their conversation. This Kelly, Jeff, K. None of it sticks. But I was over here freaking the F out because another weird detail I already knew because I Lived in that case. Is that Kelly's on air disc jockey. Name was Nikki. And the apartment where this Jeff guy worked, the apartment where Kelly was killed in 2000 was Meadows of freaking Catalpa. The same place where Nikki once lived, where her GMC that she was driving ends up being found.
- [48:19]
A
Something about these Meadows of Catalpa apartment.
- [48:21]
B
That keeps pulling us back. Everything comes back to these apartments. And guess who frequented those apartments? Tommy Swintz.
- [48:30]
A
And we're back.
- [48:31]
B
Apparently, he used to pick Nikki up from that complex when she and her ex, Steven, would be, like, fighting. This is before Bobby. So my big question. Did Tommy know Kelly? Like, we know he hung around that area, but we can't seem to confirm if Tommy was in the same circle of friends as Kelly. We tried asking around, but so far we can't find anyone who can say for sure either way.
- [48:55]
A
And are we sure Kelly knew her killer?
- [48:57]
B
No, not necessarily. I'm actually going to put Kelly's deck episode here in the crime junkie feed the day after this one drops. So anyone not familiar with that case, you really need to listen. It is a truly wild case, but at least in my opinion, it's totally possible she could have been killed by someone who just saw an opportunity. Someone who may have just been in her apartment complex and saw her come home late after drinking at a party. Now, we actually reached out to the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office asking if they have any DNA in Kelly's case, wondering if they could compare it against Tommy, but they said no. They don't have any unknown DNA samples from a possible suspect.
- [49:36]
A
But have they considered him? I mean, Dayton's big, but it's not that big, right?
- [49:41]
B
Yeah. So we asked them about a possible connection between Nikki's case and Kelly's, and we were told that they're, quote, not aware of any connection between these two. End quote.
- [49:51]
A
Okay, that's not what we asked. Have been they considered a connection?
- [49:56]
B
Honestly, I don't know. I don't know if they're, like, dodging the question because, like, I, too, was like, that's. Like, that didn't totally answer. Yeah. Or I don't know if they actually haven't considered a connection at all, but.
- [50:09]
A
If there is a connection, then in that hypothetical scenario, we're back where the first episode ended, and Tommy is the most likely culprit for Nikki's case. I mean, did the case report convince you of that?
- [50:23]
B
Convince me 100%. No, I mean, like, to me, like, until we find Nikki, nothing is 100% right. I will say that the case report filled in a lot of the blanks, making it clear why they were so confident that it was him. And it made it clear to me that we never got the whole story on Tommy. Because if Tommy Swinton had anything to do with whatever happened to Nikki McCown, it is clear that police theorized he worked with and had help from someone that you have probably never heard of until right now. It's impossible to talk about the new stuff I learned about Tommy Swind without discussing this other person because it's all so intertwined. And while this is all new information now, it's been there all along. Actually, after I released our first episode on Nikki and then met up with her daughter Peyton, she told me about this other person. Like not in detail, just kind of like mentioned that there was this other woman who worked at the prison who was like mixed up with Tommy. And if Tommy had answers, maybe this woman did too. And it was that comment that Peyton made that had me so shocked. Sure, we never knew the full story, but I didn't have the tools to dig back then. Well, welcome to 2026. That woman is Darlene Williams. Darlene is a co worker and friend of both Tommy and Nikki. They all worked at the prison together. And I really should say she's a friend of Nikki's, but she's a little more than just that with Tommy. It turns out the two had been having this long standing affair, one that was significant, still going on when Nikki went missing. And it made for a complicated dynamic because no matter which way you slice it, the one thing that's clear about Tommy and Nikki's relationship is that Tommy seemed to have a thing for Nikki, and Nikki, at minimum, was keeping Tommy close. I mean, we saw something in the report that maybe she was even using one of his credit cards, like according to one of her friends. And she may have at least once been intimate with him based on an account that someone in her family was gave police that is recounted in the case report. So there may have at least been some truth to what Bobby told Kim like a few years ago. But the question is, did Darlene know that? And if she did know about all this, how did she feel about it? In an early interview with police, she seems to think that she is the only other woman in Tommy's life. Like obviously she knows he's married, but like she's the mistress. Now people describe Darlene and Nikki as friends, but it seems like something was coming between them right before Nikki went missing. When investigators talk To a fellow employee, she says that Nikki, Darlene and Tommy hung out together, but later tells them that Nikki and Darlene had been fighting before her disappearance and that Nikki even left work upset the Friday before she went missing. Now, the case report doesn't explicitly say why, though it doesn't offer any details about this. And when they go talk to Darlene, Darlene denies to police that there was any kind of fight. But what she can't deny, what I never knew until recently, is that it's possible the actual last confirmed time Nikki was alive wasn't three o' clock when that witness saw her back at the Laundromat. It may actually be later than we thought when Nikki called Darlene. What? So let me give you the whole scoop on this call, because I think it is so important. I don't know how police initially become aware of this. Nikki does not have a cell phone. She only has a pager. But apparently she had left that pager in her Toyota that day. There is one note in the case report that this call between her and Darlene is not on the home phone. So where did she make that call from?
- [54:18]
A
I mean, do you think they're just getting this from Darlene?
- [54:20]
B
Possibly. I mean, she admits to police in her interviews that Nikki called her. And apparently she was saying that she called to ask about these, like, skin, nail, hair, vitamins that Nikki wanted to get before her wedding. And she says that Nikki was going to pick them up that day before the store closed, maybe from like a cvs. Now, I do think this call happened. This is like one of those things that is stated as fact over and over in the case report. So they must have confirmed this somehow, like maybe through Darlene's phone records. I mean, I know they subpoenaed her call records for the 21st and the 22nd, but as I got to thinking about it, like, maybe it's not as confirmed as I think, because over time and in different interviews with Darlene, the time of this call changes. I mean, like, in different statements, it's as early as 3:30pm to as late as 6:00pm and at least in the reports I have, there's no, like, firm time they decide on, which makes me take back what I said and I like. Which you would think they'd be working off of phone records. Unless they just didn't write about it in the case reports I have. Right. Either way, it doesn't seem like police ever determine where this call is made from, which I think is so important.
- [55:30]
A
Yeah, especially when you think of, like, the timeline of where Nikki was that day. So wasn't there a witness who was at the laundromat to use a payphone and like, she saw?
- [55:39]
B
Yeah.
- [55:40]
A
So there's like, there's a phone there. So maybe Nikki used that.
- [55:43]
B
Yes, but per Bobby's timeline, if we're believing his story, he's driving by the laundromat at like this exact time.
- [55:51]
A
3:30, 3:45.
- [55:52]
B
Yeah. And her car is not there. So to me, she's not making the call from the payphone. Which, like, leaves two options in my mind. One, Nikki made the call from a payphone at a gas station. This option half works. With the theory that police seem to have, it's clear from the detectives notes that they don't fully buy Darlene's story about why Nikki called. Or, like, at least there's something they don't buy because, like, in the case report, they call out the fact that there was a CVS, like right by the laundromat that was 24 hours. So she didn't need to get anywhere before it closed. And when we spoke to a close friend of Nikki's, she told us that the rumor was Nikki wasn't going to a store to get these. She was going to someone's house to pick these up. Possibly a coworker's house. Most of her co workers live near Dayton. The coworker she is calling about these vitamins lives in Dayton. And the about 44 mile drive to Dayton was one that Nikki made all the time for work. Like, so I don't think she would think twice about just like going there to pick something up. So my thinking is if she's gonna make a longer drive, remember, Bobby's car is a gas guzzler. Like, that's part of the reason she drives it to the laundromat. It's super close, right? It only had like a quarter of a tank of gas, according to what he told police in his interview. But I found from the case report that when the car was found, it had half a tank of gas. So if she drove the car out there, it had to have been filled up. Maybe she called then at a gas station.
- [57:28]
A
I mean, this makes a lot of sense, actually.
- [57:30]
B
Maybe hold that thought because it's not a perfect theory. Here's the problem with him. Bobby said the only money she had on her was like 1050, right? That he had given her for the laundry. It would cost about six bucks to do the three loads. So that gives her like $4.50 left did I research the price of gas in this area? July 2001 and then the size of a GMC Jimmy tank. Couldn't be your crime junkie if I didn't. So the tank held like 31 gallons. Gas was anywhere from like 132 to 145 a gallon, depending on if she filled up in Indiana or Ohio.
- [58:03]
A
I wish.
- [58:03]
B
I know, like so cheap. So if it's already a quarter full to get to a half a tank, and this is before she drove and used any more, she needs like $11 worth of gas. And again, this is before she makes the 40 mile drive in good condition. A 1990 GMC Jimmy gets like average 15 miles per gallon on the highway.
- [58:23]
A
It's a lot of math, by the way.
- [58:24]
B
I know everyone's probably like, don't glaze over.
- [58:26]
A
This is a word problem. And I am don't glaze over.
- [58:30]
B
So we know the GMC is in poor condition. I don't know what it actually got. Even if like, best case scenario, let's just cut to the chase. Back of the napkin math. She had to have put somewhere between like 12 to 16 bucks into the car. She had 450 according to Bobby. Right. So did she even have money for that? Maybe. Nikki's sisters Michelle and Tammy told us that she almost always had a wallet on her. But no one seems sure about whether she had it on her that day at the laundromat. All we know is that there was no wallet reportedly found in the gmc.
- [59:01]
A
So Nikki did or didn't have enough money to get to date on her own.
- [59:06]
B
Exactly.
- [59:06]
A
Like we don't know.
- [59:07]
B
I don't know. Like you just saw me do the math. Like I am desperately looking for answers over here where I don't know if there are any. Like it shouldn't be this hard to know if she had any of her cards on her. Like, so I don't know. It's possible she had money or a card that nobody knew about.
- [59:22]
A
Well, and she could have had Tommy's card too, right? Like that's in the case file.
- [59:25]
B
Well, in the case report. I like a narrative.
- [59:28]
A
Right.
- [59:28]
B
I don't know if they checked her financial reports. I don't know if they checked Tommy's. But if she didn't have money on her, then we're actually back where we started. And she went somewhere after the laundromat, maybe even in the Richmond area to call Darlene sometime between 3:30 and 6:00pm, depending on Darlene's different accounts. We know it's not home, because it's not on her home phone that I know for sure. So wherever she went, did someone intercept her? And they drove the car and had money for gas.
- [59:59]
A
Could Darlene or Tommy have been in Richmond around then?
- [60:03]
B
According to the case report, no, because Darlene says she got the call from Nikki while she was at work in Dayton. Right. And it's kind of insinuated in the reports that she was working her normal second shift that day, which would have kept her at the prison till later in the evening. But Tommy was not at work. He was in Daytona. Says he went to church, went to dinner with his wife, like, just as he does every Sunday, never venturing to Richmond. But when they ask his wife about this, she doesn't seem to remember much about July 22nd. And it's really the next day that things get really shifty. So the day after Nikki goes missing, this is now July 23, 2001. Both Tommy Swind and Darlene Williams were scheduled to work, but they call out. According to the case report, Darlene calls out of work at 12:45, which is just an hour and 15 minutes before her shift is supposed to start. And Tommy Swint's work records show that he didn't put in for the day off until the 24th. So the day after, he actually took it, which is like, I don't if it's a no call, no show, or if he just, like, calls him and nobody, nobody put it down. I don't know.
- [61:12]
A
So if they weren't at work, what were they doing then?
- [61:15]
B
Well, in a police interview, Tommy straight up tells police that he took the day off to go to Richmond to help search for Nikki, with Darlene even saying they met up with some of Nikki's family. Darlene has the same story when she speaks with detectives. But when they go back to the family to fact check this, at least according to them, Tommy and Darlene never show up on the 23rd. And we confirmed this with the family today. They don't remember either Tommy or Darlene being with their group on that day after she went missing.
- [61:47]
A
So I ask again, what are they doing then?
- [61:51]
B
The million dollar question. But as far as our records could uncover, one that no one seems to find an answer to, though you can see why police spent so much time digging into these two. So by early 2002, police were running any and all report reports that they could on this couple. They're looking for anything, and I mean anything, and paying attention to details matters. Because in doing this, police looked to see if There were any driving infractions and, like, both had some come up, but, like, none for the dates in question. Whatever. But something did stand out to one of the detectives. It was a speeding ticket that Tommy got on October 7, 2001, and he got it near the Ohio, Pennsylvania border. Seems totally unrelated, right? But it sounds like they didn't recognize the car he was in. So they run the plates, and it comes back to an auto leasing company at an address in Dayton. So they pull the address up on MapQuest Throwback, and you won't freaking believe it. Catalpa, the auto leasing company, is about a mile from where the GMC was found.
- [63:04]
A
Where the GMC is found at the metals of Catalpa.
- [63:08]
B
Yep. Now, this looks like a residential area, so it's probably weird to them that it's coming back to, like, a leasing company or whatever. But they gotta know who this belongs to, right? Yeah. Or, I mean, my big question would be, like, how long has he had this rental vehicle? If it is a rental vehicle? I think that's unclear too. Anyways, so Detective Roger Redmond and Detective Mark Connery decide to pay this address a visit. And listen, I've read a lot of police write ups. They're, like, dry and clinical. Even 90% of this report that I have on Nikki was dry and clinical. This section reads like the climax of a movie. I mean, Redman, I don't know why he's not writing narrative fiction. So they get to this house, they knock on the door, and this big dog charges at the window. It sounds like there's maybe even more than one dog. And. But finally, after knocking and knocking, the door creaks open just, like a few inches. And they can see that there's, like, a woman on the other side, but they can't see her. And she's asking, you know, why are you here? And they're like, well, ma', am, we're investigating a homicide. We'd like to speak with you. And she just shuts them down right away. Says she doesn't want to talk to them, asks them again, like, who are you? She's. I don't think she's, like, believing them for some reason. So they tell her again, like, listen, we're detectives. We just want to talk to you. She again refuses. So Redmond's like, look, I'm gonna leave my card. You can reach out when you're ready to talk. You can see, like, if you need to verify who I am, whatever. So they leave the car. They start going back to their car. And as they're about to get in, the woman calls them back. She's like, okay, I'll talk to you. So they go back into the house, and it's, like, eerie. All of a sudden, there are no dogs. And as they walk into the room, which is, like, very dark, the woman, like, walks away from them, and she has them sit in the living room while she goes into the kitchen, where they can't see her very well because it's so dark. And so from the shadows, she's asking them, what do you want? And the detective says, you know, like, I want to know if you know a man named Tommy Swind. And she says, yes. So they ask her, do you know this leasing company? And she's like, how do you know about this leasing company? And so Redmond explains how he pulled Tommy's speeding ticket. And this is when she got upset. Like, you're looking at driving records. And she says this multiple times. You're looking at driving records. And he's like, yeah, we're looking at everything. And they can see that she's nervous. She's, like, rubbing her head, like, in her hands, and she says, you know who I am? Redmond, he really didn't. I mean, he could not see her in the dark. So he just asks, who are you? I'm Darlene Williams. Now, Redmond had never been to her house before. He had her address from her employment records, but everything was, like, you know, on paper in those days. He didn't make the connection, especially when it comes back to a leasing company. Yeah, he also never made the connection that she lived that close to Meadows of Catalpa. So now they know who she is. Darlene's pretty upset. And so he says, like, this is the point where they kind of, like, end their interview. But it got me wondering. What if the GMC was at her house at some point? I mean, they never were able to determine how long it had been parked at the apartment complex. From what I can see, witness accounts were kind of all over the place. Some neighbors said that the GMC had only been there, like, a couple of weeks. Others said it had been sitting there closer to a couple of months. And there was one woman who said that she walked past it regularly, and she was adamant that it had been parked there for about three and a half months. So maybe like, the entire time. And there were even a few residents who remembered the SUV coming and going occasionally. So we know the car's there sometimes not exactly in that same spot, but no one could say what the person behind the wheel even looked like when it was coming and going. So what if for at least part of the time, it was there at her house, in her driveway or in her garage at some point? I don't have enough documentation from police documents to know how much they dug into her alibi of being at work or when exactly she would have gotten off the day that Nikki went missing. But the car Nikki's driving is found about a mile from her house. She calls out of work the very next day. She is the last known person who speaks with Nikki. That is a lot to ignore. But, Brit, this is where I started having, like, heart palpitations. Darlene wasn't just Nikki's last known call. In what we have, Redmond also notes this Tommy Swind had also called Darlene Williams prior to taking his life.
- [67:48]
A
Why her? Why, in his final moments, is the person he contacts Darlene, like, just his co worker?
- [67:56]
B
Well, I mean, we know they had an affair, right? Yeah, but. I know. I wish I could tell you, but that is literally, like, all we've got. Remember, Tina Ivory's murder wasn't Richmond's jurisdiction. So Redmond, when we're reading these case reports, he's just getting this information secondhand from Detective Patti Tackett out of Dayton. And according to the report, she relates something else to him. Tackett stated that Swint left a note behind, and in this note, he stated he was not responsible for any deaths.
- [68:27]
A
But obviously, that's not true. They have his DNA and prints for.
- [68:31]
B
Tina, but all they really have for Nikki are theories. Now, in one snippet of Redmond's report, he theorizes that Darlene is somehow connected to Nikki's disappearance. And he believes that she was disposed of into the trash dumpster that was next to where her vehicle was left. He thinks that the car was driven there by Darlene Williams and she was assisted by Tommy Swint. But after he writes this, Tackett ends up sharing more information with him that makes him consider an alternate theory. You see, she had gotten results back from the computer that Tommy had used while in Alabama. And she told Redman that Tommy was closely watching the local Richmond newspaper, and he was paying close attention to a high school news story about something that happened at the school near Darlene's house, which led her to believe that maybe Nikki's body is somewhere near Williams's address or Meadows of Catalpa, the apartment complex. Now, according to the case report, Darlene's property isn't searched until 2022, more than 20 years after Nikki disappeared, Darlene consents to the search, and investigators bring in cadaver dogs trained to detect decades old remains. Based on canine results, they dig beneath a flower bed in her backyard. Nothing's found. Later, ground penetrating radar does flag underground inconsistencies. The dogs are run. Again, investigators dig again, this time focusing on a spot where this, like, plastic flower pot had been sitting. Still nothing. No remains. No physical evidence found. But there was another canine indication of remains in the area behind Darlene's property. An area with dense underbrush and woods. It's like this expansive lot that Darlene does not own immediately adjacent to. Here we go again. Meadows of Catalpa. Yes, this area that has been tied to this case for decades. And according to the report, an area that an investigator specifically noted warranted further searching based on this K9 alert. Now, again, police haven't responded to our request for comment as of this recording, so I can't tell you if that search has ever been done. The last thing it seems Detective Redmond ever wrote in his portion of the narrative was this single haunting line. This case has been suspended until further information surfaces. It leaves this awful question mark hanging in the air for Nikki and for her loved ones. People who want to know what's been done since the file we got ends. So far, as of this recording, there has been no official police response from former or current investigators at Richmond pd. And the same goes for Darlene. We reached out to her for comment and advised her of the allegations presented in the police case report. We even sent her a certified letter, and her signature confirms that she got it. But as of this recording, we have not heard back from her.
- [71:37]
A
So after all this, those woods around Meadows of Catalpa could still hold the key to everything after all, and we don't even know if anybody even followed up on it.
- [71:47]
B
Yeah, and if Nikki's remains are somewhere in the wooded area near those apartments, the question still remains, who put them there? I get why police looked so hard at Tommy. And according to the report, Detective Patti Tackett told Redmond that Darlene even admitted to her that in the end, she no longer believes Tommy's comments about not being involved in Nikki's disappearance. And, like, what about all those things Bobby said to Kim? What if he really was following Nikki in her final days? Two of the main men in this story have passed away. But I don't think it's too late for answers or too late to find Nikki's remains. It's been almost 25 years, and it's now or never. Eight years ago, crime junkies got to hear from Peyton. She was a new mom back then, and so many things have changed in her life. But in the search for her mother, it's like she's frozen in time. And like so many loved ones I've spoken to over the years, it really is just answers she wants now, not vengeance.
- [72:52]
C
I think I would just like to say what we've been saying for the last 24 and a half years is we're not going to stop. We're going to continue. We will continue to put the fire under you until you decide that you want to come forward and say something and speak your piece. At this point, I'm not looking to see anybody really serve time. I just want answers. I want to be able to go somewhere and take my daughter so she can at least speak to her grandmother without looking at a flyer or a T shirt or, you know, a news article or anything like that. I would just like to have that piece and really start the grieving process of the loss of my mother. It's different grieving someone that you don't know you really lost, essentially. So I just want them to know that no matter what, come hell in high water, we're going to get answers.
- [73:41]
B
Maybe you know something. Is it about Bobby Webster's movements the day Nikki went missing? Or maybe you know more about Darlene and Tommy's movements. As far as I can tell, Tommy's wife is still Alive. And in 2010, someone identifying themselves as Lisa Swint wrote on Tommy's online obituary that he was her best friend, an adoring husband, and that he was a wonderful man. And that, quote, those who knew Tommy also know that truth as well. End quote. We tried every number listed for her that we could find, but as of this recording, we haven't heard back from her either. Someone out there knows where Nikki is. And if that's you, please contact the Richmond, Indiana Police Department at 765-983-7247. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.
- [74:45]
A
And you can follow us on Instagram crimejunkie podcast.
- [74:48]
B
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around for the good.
- [75:18]
A
Okay, Ashley, are you ready for the first good of the year?
- [75:21]
B
Oh, 2026.
- [75:22]
A
Yeah.
- [75:22]
B
What's happening?
- [75:23]
A
This is from an anonymous crime Junkie listener.
- [75:26]
B
I'm already intrigued.
- [75:27]
A
Hi, Ashley and Britt. I had to do this anonymously as I'm not clear of the situation yet. I am such a huge Fan of your show. I've been listening religiously for years. I've listened to every true crime podcast available and thought the women in those stories could never be me. And I'm not going to be part of a tragic story thanks to you lovely ladies tonight. You helped me leave my partner after he put his hands on me the first time. I might have taken him back or hurt him out if it wasn't for you. He pushed me and I just heard your voices in my head. I knew it was time to get out. I called my sister and headed to my parents safety.
- [76:00]
B
I literally have chills like from my head to like my knees. Oh my God.
- [76:03]
A
The stories you tell that center abuse victims and talk about about how hard it is to leave. I've heard them all and I never thought it was me. I thought the red flags didn't apply to my situation, that it wasn't verbal abuse, he just couldn't control his anger and arguments. He wasn't hitting me, just smashing objects, etc. Etc. Etc. The list goes on and it's all becoming clear bit by bit. Now I am the poster child for you can't leave until you're ready. I've watched all the videos on how to know if you're in a healthy relationship and heard all the all the crime junkie rules, but it was like they went in one ear, out the other. Well it turns out they didn't go anywhere. My brain filed knowledge away for later because it helped me today when I needed it. I am now home safe and snuggling with my parents Dogs. Adorable. You'll decide to trust me who haven't left my side since I got here. Dogs just know. Thank you both for all the work you do centering victims of abuse and women's strength in much worse situations than mine. They helped me have the strength to to call my family and friends for help even when I felt broken. This journey isn't over. It's only just begun. But I'm so glad you both helped me take the first step today. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Fingers crossed. I have the strength to keep pushing through after a four year relationship. Thank God I have an amazing support system and your podcast to distract me. All my love your very grateful listener, Anonymous.
- [77:19]
B
You can do this. Do not take him back.
- [77:22]
A
Yeah, I just love this one. And the fact that in this moment tonight, right like when she left, she thought of us and like thought of not just us but the lessons that we talk about, the information that we provide.
- [77:35]
B
It's wild how these, like, stay with people. And I think, I think also it's like, people, she said, you know, you're not ready until, like, you're, until you're ready, until you're ready. I think, like, people recognize it even subliminally the way she said she filed.
- [77:45]
A
Away, like, it kind of just kind of breezed by in the moment. But her, her brain had filed it away for, like, such a time as this.
- [77:50]
B
And my little piece of advice is if you're watching a lot of videos and reading a lot of things, asking if you're in a healthy relationship, that's probably the first sign that you're not. Take the steps you need. Take care. Look out for yourself. We love you guys. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. I think Chuck would approve. Hi, crime junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.
- [78:17]
A
And I'm Britt.
- [78:18]
B
Ok, so you know how we always say question everything?
- [78:21]
A
Literally everything?
- [78:22]
B
Well, 13th Juror is built for that energy. Brandi Churchwell tackles some seriously controversial trials and breaks them down piece by piece. Prosecution defends and the evidence the jury didn't get to hear.
- [78:35]
A
And those missing pieces could just be the answer we've all been looking for.
- [78:39]
B
So if you're the kind of crime junkie who is not afraid to rethink a verdict or challenge the narrative, then 13th juror is your next listen, like, immediately. You guys can find 13th juror now. Wherever you get your podcasts.