MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

Summary

Crime Junkie Podcast Summary: "MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix"

Release Date: December 26, 2024
Presented by: audiochuck Media Company

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Introduction

In the episode titled "MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix," hosts Ashley Flowers and Britt Prawat delve into the tragic and mysterious death of Aaron Taylor, a 36-year-old man from Phoenix, Arizona. This case, which unfolded on Christmas Day 2007, remains unresolved, leaving Aaron's family and community yearning for answers.

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The Night of the Tragedy

[02:15] Ashley Flowers
"The story I have for you today is about a truly horrific death that you probably haven't even heard of. And that's because our victim was experiencing homelessness."

Aaron Taylor was found on Christmas Day, 2007, in Paradise Valley Village, a neighborhood in Phoenix. At approximately 6:50 PM, Aaron was discovered engulfed in flames on a concrete bench near a Subway sandwich shop within a local strip mall. Two witnesses, Nimoy and a woman accompanying him, first encountered the horrifying scene.

[04:44] Britt Prawat
"Someone is on fire, and just not caring or checking out or anything?"

The initial response from bystanders was disbelief. A Circle K convenience store customer dismissed the sight as a practical joke involving a tiki torch. However, as the situation intensified, he realized the severity and called 911. Firefighters arrived by 7:01 PM, extinguishing the flames and attempting CPR, but unfortunately, Aaron succumbed to his injuries by 7:35 PM.

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Investigation Begins

[07:48] Ashley Flowers
"Police have to try and figure out what in the world happened."

Phoenix Detective Dominic Rostenberg spearheaded the investigation. The crime scene was chaotic, with water, foam, blood, and charred remains scattered around the bench area. Despite collecting evidence such as used matches and cigarette butts, much of it was compromised by the fire and firefighting efforts.

Aaron, known in the area as "Homeless Jesus" due to his long hair and beard, was a familiar face at the strip mall. Friends like Nimoy described him as a sweet individual battling alcoholism but never violent. However, Aaron had a history of severe harassment from a group of young men—nicknamed the "post high school guys" by Circle K employees—who would often assault and intoxicate him.

[10:04] Britt Prawat
"So do they know who these alleged are?"

The primary suspects were identified as two brothers, Nate (22) and Max (17), along with their friends Charlie (20) and Donnie (19). These individuals were notorious for causing trouble in the strip mall courtyard, having been repeatedly asked to leave for aggressive behavior towards Aaron.

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Emerging Leads and Witnesses

[13:03] Britt Prawat
"This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace..."

Advertisements are skipped.

[15:06] Britt Prawat
"Ryan tells officers that he and a friend were with Aaron right before this all happened."

A pivotal witness, Robert, came forward claiming he and a friend were with Aaron alongside Nate, Charlie, and two unnamed individuals. Robert reported hearing Charlie say, "we're gonna him up," suggesting a potential threat. However, his statement lacked clarity, leaving investigators uncertain about the intent behind the comment.

[17:08] Britt Prawat
"That's just a big game of telephone."

Rumors began circulating, with a woman's daughter alleging that Nate had boasted about setting Aaron on fire. These hearsay accounts complicated the investigation, making it challenging to discern factual evidence from mere speculation.

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Critical Testimonies and DNA Evidence

[29:10] Britt Prawat
"When Ryan sits down with them, he tells three variations of the same story."

Ryan introduced new names—Curtis and Ramon—accusing them of involvement. Ramon later provided a more detailed account, describing how Donnie inadvertently ignited Aaron's coat with a match while attempting to light a blunt. Despite witnessing Aaron on fire, the group chose to flee, leaving Aaron to succumb to the flames.

[34:29] Britt Prawat
"Any thought anyone might have had of, like, oh, he'll put himself out. I don't even know how you could actually think that."

This revelation shifted the investigation’s focus towards Donnie, who was apprehended in Washington in July 2008. DNA samples from Donnie were compared to residues on the matches found at the scene. Unfortunately, initial tests in April 2009 yielded no human DNA matches, leaving the case unresolved.

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Cold Case and Renewed Efforts

By 2015, Detective Rostenberg revisited the case, re-examining all collected evidence and conducting fresh interviews. Robert’s testimony had inconsistencies, and new aliases like "Colorbanger" emerged, adding layers of confusion. Attempts to obtain DNA from Nate's brother, Max, were unsuccessful, as legal barriers impeded further progress.

[44:57] Britt Prawat
"So the timing isn't lost on me either."

Additional anonymous tips in 2020 introduced new suspects, but without concrete evidence, these leads remained speculative. The elusive nature of the primary suspects—Nate, Charlie, Donnie, and Max—further hindered advancements in the case.

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Current Status and Ongoing Efforts

As of the episode’s release in 2024, Aaron Taylor's case remains a cold case. Investigators continue to seek eyewitness accounts and concrete evidence to bring closure to Aaron’s family. Detective Rostenberg emphasizes the importance of community cooperation in resolving such cases.

[49:31] Britt Prawat
"If you have any information about the death of Aaron Taylor in 2007 on Christmas Day, please contact the Phoenix Police Department..."

Aaron’s family remains devastated, grappling with the loss of their son and the absence of justice. Nikki, Aaron's sister, voiced her anguish over the unresolved nature of the case, highlighting the profound emotional toll on the family.

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Conclusion

"MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix" is a poignant exploration of a tragic event that underscores the challenges in solving crimes involving marginalized individuals. Despite years of investigation, the case of Aaron Taylor remains unsolved, serving as a stark reminder of the complexities surrounding true crime investigations.

For those with information regarding Aaron Taylor’s death, authorities urge individuals to come forward to aid in the pursuit of justice.

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Notable Quotes:

• Britt Prawat (02:57): "This is absolutely a case you'll be obsessed with and furious over."
• Ashley Flowers (07:48): "If it got damaged by water or flame extinguishers or even just the fire itself, I mean, is it even going to be useful?"
• Britt Prawat (10:49): "Ugh. I can totally picture this kind of guy..."
• Britt Prawat (31:17): "Well, I mean, that's the only way he can, so go ahead and scream."

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Further Information:
For more details and to access the source material for this episode, visit crimejunkiepodcast.com. Follow Crime Junkie on Instagram at @crimejunkiepodcast for updates and additional content.

If you have any information about the case, please contact the Phoenix Police Department at 602-495-58 or email [e-mail]. Anonymous tips can also be submitted through Silent Witness at 1-800-343-TIPS.

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This summary aims to provide a comprehensive overview of the "MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix" episode for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

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[Britt Prawat]

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[Unknown]

Hey crime junkies, it's Britt and we're almost through our upcoming Crime Junkie tour route, which means we are that much closer to getting to see you in person. 2025 is coming up in no time.

And we can't wait to deep dive.

Into a case with you all.

But until then, you know the drill. We want to reshare a story from our next stop and today we're headed back to Phoenix, Arizona where in January 2023 Ashley told you how an innocent man's life was senselessly ripped away from him. Police are certain there are individuals who.

Know who is responsible, but even Today.

Justice remains to be seen.

[Britt Prawat]

Hi, crime junkies.

[Unknown]

I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

And I'm Britt.

And the story I have for you today is about a truly horrific death that you probably haven't even heard of. And that's because our victim was experiencing homelessness. And for some reason, our society has decided that we shouldn't give these stories national attention.

[Britt Prawat]

We shouldn't become obsessed with the outcomes of those cases.

[Unknown]

But. But we crime junkies don't buy into that. This is absolutely a case you'll be obsessed with and furious over. This is the story of Aaron Taylor. It's Christmas Day, 2007, a Tuesday, and despite the holiday, there is this strip mall in Paradise Valley Village, which is a neighborhood of Phoenix, Arizona. And it has no shortage of customers, thanks to a Circle K convenience store on one end of the plaza. And that thing's open 24 7. One of those customers is this guy named Nimoy. He's with a woman headed to the Circle Cave from his nearby apartment. And this is like 6:50pm and suddenly the both of them hear screaming coming from an open air breezeway, which is basically like a walkway that separates some of the buildings. And it sounds like a man screaming. But they can't really see what's going on until they come around the side of the Subway sandwich shop to a courtyard that has these, like, concrete picnic tables and, like, benches. And something is on one of those benches right next to the subway. And whatever it is is on fire. And at first they don't know what they're looking at, but they quickly realize that it is a person engulfed in flames.

Oh, my God.

Nimoy and the woman rush over to the Circle K to get help. There's actually a customer who's leaving the store. And they like, tell them, listen, someone is on fire. We need your cell phone to call 911. Now listen. The customer had seen something burning when he drove into the parking lot, but he figured it was like a tiki torch because one of the restaurants had some of those outside. So this guy actually thinks that these people are screwing around with him. And so he tells them that he doesn't have a cell phone, even though he actually does.

Can you even imagine being told, hey, there's a guy on fire, and just not caring or checking out or anything?

Well, again, I don't know why he thinks these people are screwing with him, but he actually goes over to get a look for himself. It's not like he just gets in his car and goes away. He's like, I'm just gonna, like, see what's going on. And the closer he gets, he realizes, like, holy, it is a person. So he does call 91 1. And while he's on the phone with dispatchers, a clerk from the Circle K actually comes running over. But for some reason, even this clerk, when he first gets a look at the fire, he also thinks that someone is playing some kind of practical joke because it doesn't even look human. It looks like this big jacket and pants that were maybe stuffed with something.

Okay, I'm gonna be honest. I've never heard of something or, I don't know, someone being on fire and being like, oh, yeah, this is clearly just a hilarious prank being played on me. What's with these people?

I don't know. I think it's their brain trying to, like, rationalize that, like, again, it is Christmas Day. That's also the last thing you expect to find, right? Like a human burning right outside your place of work. That has never happened before. Certainly not on this, like, family holiday. Whatever. I don't know why that's the first thing that comes into their mind. But this guy at least is like, okay, whatever it is, it's a fire. It needs to be put out. So he tries to actually smother the flames with his jacket, but it doesn't work. And the fire is still burning when first responders get there at 7:01, within minutes of the initial 911 call. Thankfully, when firefighters approach, they realize that this isn't a joke. This is definitely a man who is straddling a concrete slab bench, hunched forward, forward. So they put out the fire and they move him into the open courtyard to start cpr. And that's when Nimoy, who had come back after getting help, realizes something that makes his heart sink. He actually knows the man that was on fire. He can tell by his build and by his beard that it's his friend, 36 year old Aaron Taylor. Aaron is clinging to life as an ambulance rushes him to the hospital. But he doesn't make it. He's pronounced dead in the burn unit at 7:35pm Police now have to try and figure out what in the world happened. As Phoenix Detective Dominic Rostenberg told our reporter Nina, this isn't something you see every day. I mean, the scene is kind of a mess. There's water and foam on the ground from firefighters efforts. There is blood and black charring on the bench that Aaron was sitting on. And there's a ton of evidence to collect, like burnt Remnants of clothing. There's little liquor bottles, snack wraps, used matches and cigarette butts.

Collecting everything they can is great, but if it got damaged by water or flame extinguishers or even just the fire itself, I mean, is it even going to be useful?

I don't know. Like, so much of it is wet or fire damage, but they're still at least collecting all of it just in case something can be useful now or in the future. And as they're gathering evidence, there are other officers that are interviewing witnesses that were at the Circle. And it turns out a lot of people in the area actually did know Aaron, either because they live nearby and they, like, frequent this strip mall area, or they work in that strip mall area. You see, Aaron was experiencing homelessness, and he spent lots of time hanging around there. His long hair and this beard that he had had earned him the nickname with locals that was homeless Jesus. Nimoy tells police that he's known Aaron for like three years. He was this sweet guy who struggled with alcoholism, often drinking until he passed out. But he never bothered anybody or caused any trouble. In fact, he had just seen Aaron yesterday on Christmas Eve, and he seemed happy. He had never mentioned wanting to hurt himself. And even though he's a smoker, Nimoy doesn't know of any times that he was careless with fire. When they talk to the Circle K clerk, he tells police that Aaron came in several times that very day to buy beer and like, other random stuff. What he knew of Aaron was that he was lonely. He liked to talk a lot. And actually he came in that afternoon sometime between 2:30 and 4pm Just to say hi. He'd been by himself. He didn't even seem drunk when he was there. But even though people who knew him said that he was generally pretty cheerful, it's also common knowledge in the neighborhood that he had been dealing with some severe harassment from this one group of guys. Basically, they would, like, get him really drunk, then they would assault him, make fun of him, and just do some pretty awful stuff. Like, for instance, police learned that about a year ago, this group had apparently duct taped Aaron to a bench in that very same courtyard. And there's even talk that one of them broke Aaron's ankle. Lots of people remember seeing him wearing a cast around that time. And it seems like everybody's heard stories of Aaron getting beat up or having things thrown at him or even having stuff stolen from him.

So do they know who these alleged are?

Well, yeah. So police keep hearing four names in connection to the harassment and Just so you know. So from here on out, I'm gonna be using pseudonyms for everyone. So they learn about two brothers, Nate and Max, and then a couple of their friends, Charlie and Donnie. And apparently, this group of four are, like, known troublemakers. They like to hang around this strip mall courtyard. And security guards tell police that they've actually had to boot them off the property multiple times. Once for pushing Aaron around and pouring water on him, even. And every time, they, like, stay away for a month or two, and then they just start coming back. The clerk actually refers to this group as the, quote, post high school guys.

Ugh. I can totally picture this kind of guy, like, hanging out in, like, 711 parking lots with teenagers, even though they're, like, definitely in their 20s.

And that's exactly who these guys are. So Nate's the oldest at 22. His brother Max is only 17, Charlie is 20, and Donnie is 19. When all of this is happening, one witness basically tells officers, these guys are like the Beavis and Butthead of the area. Like, they egg each other on to act like idiots. And this witness says that he thinks they're likely the ones who started the fire.

And have they been hanging around there recently?

Well, yes. So the Circle K employees tell police that they were in and out multiple times throughout that very afternoon. Now, before police can track these guys down, results from Aaron's autopsy come in. The next day, the medical examiner determines that he was alive when he caught fire, and he was severely burned on his head, his upper torso, his arms, and the top of his thighs. His cause of death is listed as conflagration, basically a large fire. And the manner of death is undetermined because even though the circumstances are clearly suspicious, police don't know what actually happened. But they are determined to get to the bottom of it. So that same day, officers back at the strip mall start canvassing businesses for surveillance cameras. Only two stores actually have them. The Circle K is one of them, and then that subway right by that courtyard. But the problem is Circle K's isn't going to do any good because it's not, like, trained on the courtyard where all of this went down. So they might have better luck with subways, but it's going to take some time to download the footage and comb through it. So while that's going on, detectives follow up on a new lead. There's a mall security guard that reaches out to them and says that someone named Robert is at their office, and he wants to speak with police about Aaron. Now, when police go to the security station that he's waiting at. They can tell that Robert's been crying. He seems really nervous and once they start talking to him, it becomes clear why he's so nervous.

[Britt Prawat]

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[Unknown]

Robert tells officers that he and a friend were with Aaron right before this all happened. He says Aaron was in the courtyard drinking with Nate and Charlie, plus two other white guys whose names that he says he doesn't know. And Robert says that he heard Charlie say, quote we're gonna him up end quote. Now it's important that Robert does tell police that the guys were planning to Give Aaron, like, four or five more beers. So I'm not sure if that comment was supposed to mean that they were planning to beat him up or just get him really drunk or what. Anyway, he says that he and his friend left before any kind of fire started, but he thinks that Nate and Charlie are involved somehow, along with Nate's brother Max. Though Robert says he didn't actually see Max that night anywhere. But he says these brothers are always together. And so it sounds like maybe he's thinking that Max came by, like, after he was already gone.

And Max isn't one of the two guys that he doesn't know.

No. So for sure, he says, like, he would know Nate and Charlie and Max and Donnie. Like, he knows all of those regular guys. So he said whoever those other two were, he didn't know them. Now, this is really interesting from Robert, and it's especially interesting because he's not the only one who can place them at the scene. Police get a call from a woman who says that her daughter told her that Nate had been bragging about setting Aaron on fire. Now, this is the start of a big he said, she said scenario, because as news of Aaron's death has spread, there are also rumors about what really happened and who was with him that night that start to spread as well. So when police contact the woman's daughter, she says that, well, you know, I didn't personally hear Nate bragging about it, but I heard this rumor that he had poured gasoline on Aaron and then lit him on fire. And she says that she heard the rumor from her boyfriend who heard it from someone else.

Cool, cool, cool. So this is just a big game of telephone.

Exactly. So a couple of days later, investigators contact Robert again, hoping he can maybe elaborate on some of the stuff that he said. He's really, like, their only witness who is there right before it happened. But he says that he doesn't want to come to the station. He thinks that the people responsible for Aaron's death are going to retaliate against him for snitching. So instead, he agrees to meet detectives at a McDonald's, where he nervously goes over his story with them one more time. And most of the story is the same. He and a friend are with Aaron, Nate, Charlie, and those two guys that he can't name. This is around 6 or 6:30. He says that Aaron was already drunk, and someone from the group had bought him some of those little, like, airline bottles of liquor for Christmas. So they're, like, egging him on to drink, like, more and More and more. And before he left, he says that he heard Charlie tell Nate, quote, aaron's gonna fall hard tonight.

Wait, that's a different comment than the one that he originally shared with police, right?

That's correct. So it's a different thing that Charlie supposedly says.

Yeah.

The thing is, I don't think investigators get too hung up on that, like, specific quote or that difference or line or whatever, because it's not clear if Charlie reportedly said both things or if Robert truly is confused and completely swapped them out. But either way, he says that he didn't think much of the comment at the time. Again, whether it was the first one, the second one, he didn't know what it meant. And maybe the reason they don't spend too much time on it is because there's something else that he adds to the story that's new. He says that hours after the fire, this would have been around 1am that he went to the strip mall again and he was approached by a group of young men who threatened to jump and rob him. He said that he's pretty sure some of them are friends of Nate's. And although nothing ended up happening, he believes that they just wanted to intimidate him before he could talk to police. Now, he clarifies that he's never heard any people from that group brag about hurting Aaron, even though they do think it's funny to get him drunk and mess with him. And he says he's never heard them threaten Aaron either, aside from that one comment Charlie made, which Robert only found threatening in hindsight. But despite this, despite that, he hasn't, like, seen or heard anything directly. He says he still thinks that Nate or his friends must have somehow been involved. Like, somehow they started that fire.

Yeah, it definitely sounds like he thinks that they're capable, but maybe that they didn't mean to do this. Is there a chance that they just took things too far and this was actually an accident?

Well, I mean, they're not sure yet, right? That's why it's undetermined. But even if it was an accident, Aaron is still dead and someone is responsible. So what they're hoping police anyway is that the answer is going to be in that security footage from subway. It's going to give them something to work with. However, when they get it back, it turns out that none of their cameras have footage of the courtyard, so there is no way to see what happened. More importantly, there's no way to even verify Robert's story. Now, it's around this time that police Are finally able to locate Aaron's family, and they have to deliver the difficult news of his death to his parents. But they're hopeful maybe learning more about Aaron can potentially help them find out what led to his death. And when his family finds out, they're stunned. I mean, they're horrified to hear the details of how it happened. Though they haven't seen or even spoken to Aaron in, honestly, years. They don't understand why someone would do this to him. You see, police learn that he'd had a really happy childhood. There were five siblings altogether, so there was always someone to play with. And Aaron was like the daredevil of the bunch, Always climbing these big trees that they had in their yard of their family home in Oregon. And it wasn't until high school that Aaron began getting into trouble. By that time, they had moved to Phoenix and Aaron started drinking and using drugs. And when he was 19, he had crashed his motorcycle while being chased by police. He actually almost died in that accident. And he ended up suffering some brain damage. And that is when he really started to pull away from his family. When his parents moved back to Oregon for a bit, he actually stayed behind in Phoenix, Preferring to sleep in homeless shelters. And when they eventually came back to Phoenix, he tried living with them for like a minute, but it just didn't last very long. Over the years, he was in and out of jail, Including a seven year stint for burglary. And after he was released, his family tried to find him and even bring him home. His dad even hired two private investigators to track him down at one point. But Aaron was restless, like he didn't like to stay in one place for very long. And this whole time, his struggles with drugs and alcohol use are continuing. But his family says they never stopped loving him and they never stopped hoping that he was going to turn his life around. So now to learn that not only was that never going to happen, but that he died in this God awful way is just beyond devastating. Now, because his family hadn't talked to him in so long, they couldn't offer anything valuable to police to progress their investigation. But around this time, they do get what they think is a promising lead elsewhere. See, the rumor mill hadn't stopped turning, and the police were determined to get to the root of it all. So they tracked down this guy Carl, who seems to be at the center of this rumor mill. Lots of people they talk to are basically like, well, I heard this or that or whatever, but I heard it from Carl. But the problem is, once they get to Carl he says, well, I'm just telling people what Robert told me.

Oh, my God. So around and around and around this story goes.

Now, it's a good thing they did track Carl down, though, because there are a few noticeable differences between the story that Robert has been telling police and what he's apparently been telling Carl. Like, for one, in this new version of events, Robert's been telling Carl that Charlie wasn't even there. Again, Charlie's the one that has the two statements that are changing. He says he's not there, but Max, Nate's brother, was there. It seems like they're basically swapped out now as they continue to talk to Carl, what they find out is that Carl, I guess, at some point actually confronted Nate about the fire. And Carl says that Nate denied being involved to him, so he's not bragging about being involved to everyone. And he even said that if he had done anything to Aaron, he'd be two states away by now. But Carl says he doesn't believe him. He also thinks that Nate is responsible for Aaron's death, but Carl says that he won't testify to any of that should this case ever go to trial.

That's so frustrating. I feel like everyone is just talking around this same group of guys, but no one can actually definitively say, yes, I was there. This is who started the fire. Have they actually talked to any of this group yet?

No. So that's the thing. Like, these guys are proving to be difficult to actually track down. Detective Rostenberg told us that at the time, they think Nate and Max might have left the area for a while. But it sounds like Max might have actually been at college at the time. And Charlie had apparently moved to California.

Oh, so they all just conveniently peaced out at the exact same time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the timing isn't lost on me either. But there isn't much they can do. Again, they don't have an eyewitness. And like I said, even though Carl's like, oh, I'll never testify, I don't know what he would even testify to because he wasn't there. He's hearing rumors like everyone else. And so that's the problem. Everything in this is, like, heard third hand, and lead after lead falls through. And everyone who says that they have information just ends up regurgitating the same rumors that they've heard a thousand times. So until they get some concrete evidence, that's all, everything is just rumors. But with these rumors, some people start to suggest a possible motive. Some of these guys who are Known to mess with Aaron, I guess, are wealthy. Maybe they just don't have any sympathy for homeless people because they've never dealt with any hardships. And that might seem like a stretch, but this lack of empathy isn't just towards Aaron. I kind of looked into this and according to John Dickerson's reporting for the Phoenix New Times, there had been a recent uptick in violence against homeless people. And that disturbing trend can be seen across the country. The National Coalition for the Homeless says that in 2006, 122 homeless people were attacked and 20 of them were murdered. Now that's probably an underreporting again, that's from years and years and years ago.

Yeah, I was gonna say that's also just the ones that were reported.

Exactly. Because what I know is that Aaron didn't report any of the incidents that were happening to him, to police, and.

Everyone saw it happening. I mean, how many accounts said like this was going on? These guys were messing with him, like anytime they were around.

Well, and what's especially sad is that it seemed like despite everything, despite the harassment, Aaron kind of thought of these guys like as friends. He thought that they liked him or something. But these so called friends now are nowhere to be found. And for months, the police are just at a standstill. And time doesn't bring more answers. In early June, police learned that no ignitable liquid residues were found on any of Aaron's clothing. But the lab does caution that negative results don't rule out the possibility that liquids, specifically ignitable liquids, were initially at the scene.

So like an accelerant?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're talking like gasoline or something like that. And they're saying that we couldn't find any. That doesn't mean they weren't there. They could have evaporated. They could have been completely consumed by the flames. So physical evidence is telling them nothing. But that month, that's when a guy named Ryan comes forward with a story that police haven't heard yet.

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[Britt Prawat]

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[Unknown]

So if I want to skip a.

[Britt Prawat]

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[Unknown]

When Ryan sits down with them, he tells three variations of the same story. And I'm not going to tell you every single detail because honestly, it gets super confusing. Like I can't tell you how many times I had to go over it over and over again and I was still finding myself getting confused. But the basics of what you need to know are this. He introduces two new people, Curtis and Ramon, and he says that these guys hang out with lots of the people in our Original group of 4 guys who, if you remember are Nate, Max, Charlie and Donnie. Although notably, Donnie hasn't been placed at the scene by anyone yet. It's all been Nate, Max and Charlie.

But everybody knows that Donnie always hangs around with these other three guys, so.

Exactly.

That's why he's kind of like being lumped in with them.

Right. And now Ryan is saying that Curtis and Ramon also hang out with these guys regularly.

Got it.

So basically where his story ends up landing is these two new guys, Curtis and Ramon, and then three of the original group, Nate, Charlie and Donnie.

So basically everyone but Nate's brother Max. Right?

Right. Okay, so you're following. I know there's a lot of Nate.

There's a lot going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he says those five people were all there with Aaron on the night that he died. And he said that while they were hanging out, Donnie and Nate were flicking lit matches at Aaron. And he says that it was Donnie's match that got caught on either Aaron's beard or the sleeve of his wool coat that he was wearing. And Ryan says that Aaron was really drunk, so he didn't really react to this happening. Now, he says, like, I mean, has to be really shortly after they flick this. But basically he's like, we all got up and we got in the car and we drove away. And we look back, and that's when we notice that Aaron is face down on the bench, burning. But they just, like, figured he'd put the fire out by himself, and they just kept driving.

So was Ryan there? No, of course he wasn't.

I mean, I know.

Okay, so if he wasn't there, then where did he get this information? If you tell me he heard it from a friend, I might scream into this mic.

Well, I mean, that's the only way he can, so go ahead and scream. But he does say that, like, someone there told him, so. He says that he heard it from Ramon, who, again, he's saying Ramon was there when it happened. And, like, in the same breath, he also tries, like, vouching for Ramon. He's like. He's a good guy. He was the one that was, like, crying as he recounted what had happened that night. He knows that it kills him inside to think that they could have helped him but didn't. But he says that the other guys he heard were not sad at all. Like, I guess they were finding it funny. They're, like, laughing about it.

Okay. Do police believe any of this story, though?

I mean, maybe. Again, it's interesting. It's at least different than everything they've heard before. They're at least, like, one degree removed, Right, from the person, not like six or whatever.

Right, right.

But the problem is, it is still someone who heard the story from someone else. It is not an eyewitness. Now, they want to corroborate this as best as they can at the time. Police are still having a hard time tracking down everyone, except they are able to actually track down Ramon, who is supposed to be the source of this information. And if what Ryan is saying is true, that he is the one who has, like, a sense of remorse about this whole thing, maybe they're going to have like, some luck getting him to talk. When they bring Ramon in, he is freaked out. And at first, he insists that he wasn't there during the fire. He says that they were all hanging out, but he and Curtis just kind of smoked some weed, and then they left. But police don't believe him. So investigators warn him that they have security footage, which we know they don't, but they're, like, hoping that that'll get him talking. And it works, because finally, Ramon breaks. He tells detectives that he actually saw the whole thing. He says that Donnie was trying to light a blunt with some matches, but they were all duds. So Donnie would, like, strike a match, then flick it. And one of the matches landed on Aaron's wrist or cuff or something. And Aaron was so drunk that he.

[Britt Prawat]

Couldn'T even lift up his head.

[Unknown]

He was, like, basically passed out on the bench and in the position that he was in, which was, like, half sitting, half slash, like, laying. The match landed by his shoulder and by his long hair. Now, he says Donnie finally got the blunt lit while this is going on. And they all jump in someone's car to drive away. But as they're pulling out of the parking lot, Ramon looked over and saw the sleeve of Aaron's coat was on fire. But he says they didn't turn back. And later on, Nate got a text from someone asking if he had heard about what happened. And that is when Donnie started to freak out, saying that he needed to get out of the state and that if anyone told on him, he'd have them killed. Since then, Donnie had called Curtis and others from private numbers to threaten them, he said, which is why Ramon says that he hasn't come forward. He was scared for his life and for even his family's safety. Ramon says that he doesn't think Donny meant to kill Aaron. But accident or not, if Ramon is telling the truth, Aaron's death is Donnie's fault.

Yeah. And if they were all there and knew that he was on fire but decided not to turn around and help, then they're all technically involved with Aaron's death and could actually be held accountable in some way.

Right. Especially if what they're saying is true, that Aaron was so drunk that he, like, couldn't even sit up. Like, he wasn't even conscious.

Completely incapacitated. Yeah.

Yeah. Any thought anyone might have had of, like, oh, he'll put himself out. I don't even know how you could actually think that. So this interview actually changes everything. Like, Ramon might not be 100% consistent, but police finally have somebody who was there. They have an eyewitness, not somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody else.

Yeah. This is huge, honestly.

Yeah. So a couple of days later, after detectives consult with a medical examiner, Aaron's manner of death is officially changed from undetermined to homicide. Meanwhile, the used matches that they found at the scene, which had not been sent to the lab for testing, are submitted for DNA analysis. And detectives also decide to bring in Curtis to see if he'll corroborate what Ramon said. But he says that he doesn't remember much from Christmas. He says the whole night was like a blur, but he certainly doesn't remember Aaron catching fire. And he says he can barely even recall names of the guys who were there because he doesn't know them all that well. However, police know that's not true. You see, they have his phone records, which show that he had called Nate four times within an hour that night. And when they confront him with this, he said that Nate knows a guy who gets them weed. So he's like, that's the only reason I was calling. That's why there's, like, four calls. Whatever.

Okay.

Now they want him to take a polygraph. He's, like, definitely not willing to do that, mostly because he says he just smoked a few hours ago, and he doesn't know, like, what that's gonna do to the results. And this is where police, like, jump in, and they're like, actually, you've already been taking a polygraph this whole time. You just didn't know it. Police tell him that they have been analyzing his voice and doing, like, a stress test analysis thing as he's talking. And so they're like, you know, even though you don't think you're taking a poly, like, we know you're lying now. This isn't actually true. Police weren't testing his voice. And, Britt, I actually had you look this up anyways. Like, if they were doing it, would it have been accurate? And you found some interesting things, right?

Yeah. So basically, voice stress tests definitely are not all that accurate. I actually found this one study by the National Institute of Justice, and it shows that even the most popular programs used to conduct those tests, like, at that time are really no better than, like, flipping a coin when it comes to getting an accurate definition of, like, truth or lies.

I feel like I heard one time that, like, they're even less reliable than a polygraph, but I'm not 100% on that either way. So they tell him this lie. Curtis doesn't know that they're lying. So he starts to backtrack and eventually he's like, okay, I did see someone flicking matches, but only at the ground. And he admits that when they were all in the car, someone got a text about how the whole area had turned into a crime scene, like there was tape all around it. But he says that he's not sure who was messing with Aaron or who was flicking matches, and he doesn't think anyone knew that Aaron had even caught fire. So as far as witnesses go, this guy's like, meh at best. But regardless, investigators know that it's time to go after one of their big fish, the alleged fire starter, Donnie. And it's their lucky day. They learn that Donnie was just arrested that past May in Washington.

[Britt Prawat]

Peloton has what you need to keep you on track to your goals. No matter what season of life you're in. Holiday era, pre drop off meditation era, crime solving era, whatever era of life you're in, Peloton has the class and the motivation you need to get after it. Whether you need 10, 20 or 45 minutes of you time to sweat or get grounded. Peloton provides flexibility with the daily, on demand and live classes that fit your schedule in life. And with Peloton's All Access membership, you can work out where you need it and when you need it. We're heading into the holidays, folks, which not only means all the extra treats, but all the extra travel. I'm on the road a ton coming up and it's nice to have my classes come with me no matter where I am. And it's flexible.

[Unknown]

So if I want to skip a.

[Britt Prawat]

Day of yoga to sleep in for Thanksgiving, I can push a little extra hard with a run a few days post turkey.

[Unknown]

Find your push Find your power with.

[Britt Prawat]

[e-mail].

[Unknown]

Detectives contact prosecutors there in Washington and find out that Donnie had recently checked into a drug rehab facility. His defense attorney wouldn't give the prosecutors any details, but that attorney promised that Donnie would be at his next court appearance on July 10th at 9am so these Phoenix detectives fly out to Washington on July 9th. They get a search warrant to take DNA samples from Donnie. And true to his lawyer's word, the next day Donnie appears in court and after the appearance wraps, police bring him in to chat with him and he pretty much agrees to talk openly as long as his lawyer is present. And so after taking that DNA sample, they sit down to hear Donnie's version of events. He says that back at home he and his friends often hung out in that little courtyard by the subway. That was a regular hangout spot. And he knew that people messed with Aaron, although he says he didn't participate because he didn't think it was funny. And he says even though people messed with Aaron, everyone still liked him. Like, they were cool with him. They weren't doing it because they didn't like him. Again, I don't know if this goes back to, like, them being bored rich kids or what, but he's like, the whole crew would give him money. They'd buy him cigarettes, stuff like that. And he's like, listen, Aaron was a good guy. I even considered him a friend. So when it comes to that day, he tells detectives that on Christmas, he met up with Nate and Charlie and this third guy that he only knows by the nickname Colorbanger. And police don't recognize this alias at all. And Donnie says all he knows about this Colorbanger guy is that he's this skinny white guy, early 20s. He uses meth, lives somewhere around the area, and wears colorful, tight clothing. Hence the nickname, I guess. I don't know.

Sure.

Basically, he's got this punk rock style, Short, spiky hair, and piercings. So, anyways, there's this new guy now. So on Christmas, they're all hanging out with Aaron, and someone bought Aaron a sandwich and some shooters, which are those small airline bottles that they found at the scene. Donnie says that he wasn't drinking at all because he had to drive. But Aaron got really drunk and passed out on the bench. He says other people kind of came and went while they were there. Friends, people from the neighborhood, Curtis, possibly Ramon. Then around maybe six or seven, Donnie says his aunt calls his cell to let him know that Christmas dinner was ready, so he needed to get back. So that's when he says he left alone in his own silver BMW. He thinks maybe he stopped somewhere to get cigarettes. And then he went right to his aunt's house, which is in Scottsdale, where he spent the night.

Wait, so he's saying that he wasn't even there when the fire was started?

Bingo. According to Donnie, he only found out about the fire the next morning from an unnamed fire friend. And he said he didn't even believe it at first because the whole story was so shocking. Again, so unexpected. Now, he says that whoever that unnamed friend is told him that it was Colorbanger who threw the match, or couple of matches at Aaron's arm, which resulted in the fire. But it was all an accident.

Okay, to be clear, this could just be another situation where information or supposed details about this crime has been passed down from one friend to another. Is there anyone else who can verify the story? Like that friend, for instance?

Well, no, because Donnie tells detectives that he's not sure where his friend got his information and he doesn't know how to get in touch with him.

He doesn't know how to get in touch with his friend?

Yeah, he says no.

Cool. Yeah, awesome. Perfect.

Yeah. It's definitely not the confession investigators were hoping for. And basically the interview ends when Donnie's defense attorney says, listen, he's due to appear in court on another case. Like, we gotta go. So detectives head back to Phoenix with Donnie's DNA, but when they talk to the folks at the lab, they're told that all they can really test DNA on are LA match sticks. And in that process, they're going to basically totally consume any DNA that's there. So this is a question that comes up a lot in cases like, we can try the testing, but if nothing's there, like you can never test again, Right?

We can try the testing, but it's the only testing we could ever do.

Yeah, and in a year or two, the testing might be better if you want to wait. It's like this conundrum that so many detectives find themselves in. But at this point, it's November 2008. So they're coming up on the one year anniversary of Aaron's death. And I mean, they don't have any more than rumors and speculation to go off of. So they're like, you know what, let's just see what we can find. Go ahead, test the matchsticks. But Months later, in April 2009, the lab reports come back that there is no human DNA that was detected on the matches. So after the DNA is a bust, years start to go by. Tips occasionally come in, but there are no major developments. Then in the fall of 2015, police decided to take a fresh look. They appoint Detective Rostenberg, who is assigned to Phoenix's cold case unit, and he reviews all of the evidence investigators collected eight years prior. Interview transcripts, audio files, lab reports, photos, everything. And In February of 2016, they decide to go all the way back to the very beginning and talk to Robert again.

Okay, let me make sure I remember his story. He's the one who originally placed Nate, Charlie and two other unnamed guys at the scene with Aaron. And he thinks that maybe Nate's brother Max might have joined them later in the evening, but he wasn't like 100% sure.

Right. And he's the one who was at the center of the Ruber Mill back when everything first went down.

Okay.

But now they're hoping that maybe he'll remember something new. And even if he doesn't remember anything new, maybe he'll finally stick to one story.

That'd be lovely.

Yeah. But that's actually the opposite of what happens, because his story has changed again. And this time not like, oh, a little, oh, Charlie said this, or whatever, like a drastic change. Robert now says that Nate's brother Max was there that night. Not only that. He says when he left the courtyard, he saw Max walking towards where Aaron and everyone else was hanging out. And he was carrying a red gas can.

Um, that's not just different. That's, like, a big, important difference.

Huge.

Am I wrong? Like a gas can?

Yeah. This is the first time anyone has brought up a gas can, and they find it hard to believe this crucial detail would just slip someone's mind, you know?

Right. I mean, someone was on fire and there was a gas can. Those feel really connected, like you'd remember it the first time. And even if the accelerants at the scene were evaporated or washed away, like you said earlier, I don't know how this wasn't in his original version of events. Like a red gas can. That's gonna stick out in your mind.

Yeah. And again, to remind you, Max wasn't in his original version of events. He was very specific in saying, I never saw him, but they're just always together, so I assume he's there. And now you.

Whole extra person and a gas can in his story.

Yeah, it's so strange. But strange or not, it's been years since police have gotten anything substantial. So they're like, maybe we just get Max's DNA just to be safe.

Okay, but they don't have anything to test it against, do they?

No, they don't. But I think the idea is to maybe get a sample just in case they can test it against something in the future. Or it's a chance to talk to Max or make Max think there's Dana. I don't know. What I know is that when Max comes into the station to give the sample, they try and talk to him about Aaron, but he basically asked for a lawyer right away. And, like, that's. That's the end of that. Now, over the years, there are a few other names or at least nicknames that kind of pop up. Like, for instance, In April of 2020, Phoenix Police get an anonymous call from someone who says that? Word on the street is that a Hispanic man known only by the nickname Psycho took part in killing Aaron. Now, this Psycho is supposedly in his mid-20s, with short dark hair, brown eyes, and tattoos. They say he's like, 5, 6, 5, 7, 135, 140 pounds. And he has a criminal record, although the anonymous caller didn't say what the record was for. And police are never able to identify this quote, unquote, psycho person. And apparently it's like, a really popular nickname, so, like, it doesn't even narrow it down.

Right.

And speaking of nicknames, they also never find out who colorbanger was. If there was a colorbanger like Detective Rostenberg says, he might not even be a real person at all, just a fictitious nickname and description that was fed to police.

Right. To kind of like, throw them off or whatever.

Right.

So what about Nate and Charlie? Were they ever able to track those two down?

Oh, yeah. So they were able to track down Nate, but just like his brother, he lawyered up right away and has basically overall refused to assist in the investigation. As for Charlie, police haven't been able to find him. They confirmed that he moved to California, but as of the release of this episode, he still hasn't been located. Police would love to talk to him if he's out there and wants to give him a call. So here's where the case stands today. Investigators have preserved DNA samples from a number of people, including Donnie and Max. They're still submitting evidence for lab testing and trying to locate some of the potential key players that they never got to speak with. What they really need to solve this case are eyewitness accounts, someone who can corroborate Ramon's story, because they say it's going to be too difficult to just move forward with Ramon because he's associated with the whole incident. So Detective Rostenberg is hoping that people who know what happened to Aaron will do the right thing and come forward. And of course, no one wants the case solved more than Aaron's family. His sister Nikki told us how frustrating it is to try and pick up the pieces and go on without her brother, while whoever is responsible for cutting his life short gets to live theirs every single day. So if you have any information about the death of Aaron Taylor in 2007 on Christmas Day, please contact the Phoenix Police Department at 602-49558, or you can email coldcase homicide.ppd phoenix.gov there's also an option to leave anonymous tips by contacting silent witness at 1-800-343-TIPS. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website crimejunkiepodcast.com.

And be sure to follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

[Britt Prawat]

Crime Junkie is an audio check production.

[Unknown]

So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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