Britt (4:54)

I get that, but like farm kid.

Ashley Flowers (4:57)

Here truly sounds like your episode.

Britt (4:59)

Sometimes stuff happens fast and you gotta move like just as quickly. I can totally see her popping out, leaving everything to take care of whatever emergency farm thing happened somewhere else.

Ashley Flowers (5:09)

All of this. And yes, you are not wrong. But I haven't given you the full context for why everyone is so worried. Charlotte is actually in the middle of a really nasty divorce with Jeff and Jenny's dad, Fred, which should be marking the end of years of abuse that Charlotte's endured at his hand. I mean, even shortly before the filing, he'd recently been charged with battery for assaulting her. So Fred's clearly not been willing to let go of Charlotte. And while not many people outside of the family know what's been going on behind closed doors, Charlotte doesn't hide these ugly truths from her kids. They're grown adults and she looks to them for support. In fact, she had just told her family like days ago that if she ever didn't come home for any reason, something was up and they should come look for her.

Britt (5:57)

Ashley, I feel like you should have led with all of that information.

Ashley Flowers (6:01)

I'm trying to tell a story here. So to add to their worry, a couple of neighbors tell Jeff and Jenny that Fred was actually spotted in the area around 4 to 4:30. So the kids set off to find Fred. At this point, one of our reporters, Emily, spoke to Jenny for this episode and she said that they looked around for him a little bit, specifically at a couple of bars in the area where he was known to spend a lot of time. But when they couldn't find him, Jenny reached out directly to the Clark county sheriff, James Thompson, known to the family and others in this small town as Red. Red. And by the next day, Red enlists the help of the state police who are able to track Fred down. They end up finding him on the farm in the very place that his wife might have disappeared from, that shed, per the records. Fred tells police that in the early afternoon on the 24th, he showed up at the shed with a woman named Vicki McAllister because she wanted a burn barrel. So Fred began to load one up just as Charlotte started to pull up on the tractor. So I guess he instructed Vicky to hide in the front seat of his truck because, oh, by the way, Vicky was his new girlfriend. Oh, and he wanted to avoid some kind of blow up. But it sounds like that didn't really matter because then he admits that when Charlotte got off the tractor, they started arguing about his and Vicky's relationship anyways. And Fred says that the fight ended with him telling Charlotte to go to hell. And then he hopped in his truck and drove away. And he says that Charlotte actually followed him in her car, racing up behind him to give him the finger. And the last time he saw her is when he crossed over i70 while Charlotte went right, heading towards Terre Haute, Indiana, which is like just over the like state line, about 20 minutes from Marshall. And the grabby property is super close to the border near the Wabash River.

Britt (7:48)

Convenient that she just left on her own.

Ashley Flowers (7:51)

Very. And Fred also tells police that Charlotte has done this before. And you know what, like, she might be gone, we might not be able to find her, but she's gonna come back. She's playing some kind of game.

Britt (8:01)

And did he say where he and Vicky went after this altercation?

Ashley Flowers (8:05)

He says that he went to a trailer, which I think belonged to Vicky. And he said he got there around 4pm and then he stayed there till the next morning.

Britt (8:13)

Okay, Fred, I know.

Ashley Flowers (8:14)

But, like, at least part of what Fred told police seems to be true because police follow up with the grabby neighbors who indicate that they did see Fred driving in his pickup truck down the road with Charlotte's car following right behind him, just like he said. One of those neighbors said that this happened between 4:15 and 4:30. But this is where Fred's narrative starts to fall apart. Because both neighbors that they end up talking to tell authorities that they don't believe it was Charlotte driving Charlotte's car. One of the witnesses describes the driver as a woman who had blonde curly hair. Charlotte is known to have straight, short, dark hair. And both witnesses know Charlotte super well. So these accounts, like, have some real teeth to them.

Britt (8:59)

So the big question now is, did Vicki McAllister have blonde curly hair?

Ashley Flowers (9:03)

This is my first question we asked Jenny. And all these years later, she says she couldn't exactly remember. She remembered it being like, frizzy. But according to police records, we got our hands on Cindy did tell police that Vicky had blonde curly hair. And also we did get our hands on some pictures of her from back in the day. And, like, definitely it looks light colored, definitely curly. So I don't think it's a mystery as to who could have been driving Charlotte's car. Now, if I were red or the state police, obviously I'm going straight back to Fred calling him a big fat liar and pressing him to tell me why witnesses spotted someone who looked an awful lot like his girlfriend driving his missing wife's car the day that she went missing. Yeah, but I don't know if they did any of that. Like, there's nothing I can see in the files that we have that shows they went and pressed Fred. And I'm not saying they didn't. But what we do know is that on July 26, this is now two days after Charlotte was last seen. This is when police interview Fred. Vicky. Except there's nothing about them pressing her on if she was the one driving that car or not. Like the thing I want to know the most, Vicki pretty much just tells them the same story that Fred did. She says that she was hiding in the truck. She could hear Fred and Charlotte arguing. Fred eventually jumped in the truck and then they drove away, arriving to her trailer between like 4 and 5. So police don't get a whole lot from Fred and Vicky because it feels.

Britt (10:27)

Like we're not asking any of the Important questions.

Ashley Flowers (10:30)

Fair. But maybe they wanted to find Charlotte's car before they go making accusations. And luckily, that is exactly what happens next. Like, the very same day that they interview Vicky, Charlotte's car is discovered parked and locked at a bar in Terre Haute. And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, there's nothing super alarming about the condition of the car. Like, when police finally get inside and search the vehicle, there's no signs of a struggle or blood or anything. The only thing of interest that we do know they find in the car is a gun. But in rural Indiana, it's, like, honestly not weird to find that in someone's car. This is my PSA about road rage. People like you do not know who is behind that wheel or what kind of day they have had or life or what they have under their seat.

Britt (11:17)

1,000%.

Ashley Flowers (11:18)

Yeah. And Jenny told us that in her mom's case, she thinks that this gun that they found was actually one that her dad purchased, but he never took it with him when he moved out of the house after the split. So her mom was keeping it with her and on her, like, for protection, basically.

Britt (11:35)

Is there any testing they can do on it to see if it was used recently or anything?

Ashley Flowers (11:41)

You know, I don't think there's any testing they can do on the gun itself. I mean, I know they could test Fred for, like, gsr, gunshot residue, like, to see if he'd fired a gun.

Britt (11:50)

We know, like, that exists.

Ashley Flowers (11:51)

Yeah. Nothing says that they did this, though. But I don't think there's, like, a test you can run on a gun to know if it was fired within the last couple of days. So I know the car eventually gets returned to Marshall for further examination, and then things like hairs and fibers and fingerprints are found in the car, but none of these things that are found seem to tie directly back to Fred or Vicky. So while the car didn't appear to provide a ton of new information, finding that gun that Charlotte kept closed for protection just reinforced how truly terrified she was of Fred. And if there was any doubt about that, Charlotte cleared that up in her own words.

Britt (12:29)

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Ashley Flowers (13:35)

Opened a two room business school above a nondescript storefront in downtown Manchester, New Hampshire. How did it become one of the largest universities in the country? Okay, this case isn't exactly a mystery. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 degrees you can earn from your couch. And with low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University makes earning your degree affordable too. Find your degree at snhu. Edu crimejunkie. That's S N H U Edu crimejunkie. Police found that Charlotte kept a safety deposit box at a local bank. And when investigators got access to that box, they found a three page signed letter dated July 10th. This is about two weeks before she disappeared. And in this letter, Charlotte accuses Fred and his business associate, this guy named Dale, of doing some shady stuff like stealing from other farms. And Charlotte's letter also describes a scheme where Dale and Fred would remove serial numbers from oil pump jacks, which seems to indicate that they were, like, maybe stolen or stealing them or whatever. So essentially, these two were getting into all kinds of things. But even more damning, Charlotte says in her letter, quote, fred and I are getting a divorce, and I'm not sure I will not be killed through all of this. End quote.

Britt (15:02)

You know, it's always so, like, chilling but devastating to me when a victim, like, sees it coming. You know, like, it's like a train barreling towards them that they can't stop. They can do nothing to stop.

Ashley Flowers (15:15)

You want to, like, reach back in time and be like, you. You're like, you're writing this letter for a reason. Like, you're not crazy. You.

Britt (15:21)

You need to do some, like, reach out for help.

Ashley Flowers (15:23)

Do something. And this is like, you know, the PSA we do to everyone. Like, if you're having those feelings, like, you. So many times. People are like, well, it's not going to happen to me. And I just. I'm right down. Just in case.

Britt (15:32)

Overreacting.

Ashley Flowers (15:33)

Just in case is like, you're at a line that, like, it's already gone far, too far. So, like, we're gonna have a ton of links to resources in the show notes, but, like, there are plenty of people out there, like Charlotte, who are, like, doing things like this, writing this letter. So the signs that Charlotte was in danger before she vanished were very real, not just in the form of assaults from Fred. Jeff tells police that actually, the day before Charlotte's disappearance, she got a strange call from a woman. And this woman told Charlotte that she had some documents that would get Fred in trouble and she wanted to meet up at a bar.

Britt (16:10)

No.

Ashley Flowers (16:11)

Obviously, no. Charlotte's not even falling for it either. And when the woman refused to give her name, Charlotte refused to go meet her. Yeah, but, like, this is another big mystery within a mystery. Who was this woman? What was this all about? It only adds to, like, all of the questions they're already asking. And what, if anything, this has to do with Charlotte's disappearance. Police don't know, because, like a lot of things in this case, it's all too vague. But Charlotte's kids don't need the same evidence. Maybe even the police do, or the jury would. They are convinced from the jump that their own father murdered their mother. But not everyone is on that train. There are at least a few people who are on Fred's side. Police interview a friend of Fred's named Estell, and he tells police almost exactly what Fred told them. He thinks that Charlotte is playing some kind of game, that she would come back, and he doesn't think that Fred would ever harm Charlotte. Police also talk to Fred's business associate, Dale, and according to a Forensic Files episode, he oddly enough tells police that he, you know, thinks Fred didn't do it because Fred was with him at his house on the night of the 24th.

Britt (17:22)

Okay, get your story straight, Dale.

Ashley Flowers (17:24)

Right. Because, like, Fred's saying he's at Vicki's. Right.

Britt (17:26)

Like, right. And also, like, I feel like we should take anything Dale says with, like, a grain of salt, like, he was probably doing illegal stuff with Fred.

Ashley Flowers (17:34)

Precisely. And worth noting that Jenny told us that Charlotte was afraid of Dale, too. Now Dale is unfortunately no longer alive, or, like, I would have just gone and asked him about all of this.

Britt (17:45)

Also, even if Dale is telling the truth, Fred being at his place that Night kind of means nothing, right? Like, we don't know when Charlotte actually went missing, do we?

Ashley Flowers (17:56)

Right. No, not really. So according to Jenny, her mom usually went out to the field, like, really early in the morning, often at daybreak, like, as farmers are known to do. Yes. Sometimes she would work till, like, late in the night. The only thing we have to even kind of give us a timeline are those neighbors who saw Fred and not Charlotte driving away. So, like, remember one of those neighbors puts this between 4:15 and 4:30pm Another neighbor actually puts Fred's truck at the shed between 3 and 4. But by 4:30, both the truck and Charlotte's car were gone. So if something happened to her at the shed. And, like, at this time frame, we're looking at 3 to 4:30, and then, like, who knows where Fred really was and when after that. Now, as August rolls in, authorities and locals form search parties to look for Charlotte, including searching the Wabash river near the grabby property. But it is a needle in a haystack because Marshall is located in rural Illinois, and the area is quite literally thousands of acres of corn and soybean fields. Our reporter, Emily, actually was able to interview Fred for this episode, and he said that they had over a thousand acres, with most of it being in Illinois. But, like, some of the land crossed the state line into Indiana.

Britt (19:11)

And this feels so similar to where I grew up. Like, I just remember, like, miles and miles of fields with, like, these little houses peppered here and there, some wooded areas. Sometimes they're, like, separating the field. Sometimes they're just, like, in the middle hanging out.

Ashley Flowers (19:25)

Right.

Britt (19:26)

It's not like there's a lot out there.

Ashley Flowers (19:27)

And when you think about, like, even, like, corn fields and stuff, too, like, the corn is high this time of year. It's so it's not like you can just, like, peer far and wide.

Britt (19:35)

Yeah. And again, like, there's not much going on. There's not a lot out there. But if you're looking for something, yeah, the land can just seem endless to a point.

Ashley Flowers (19:43)

And for everyone who did not grow up on a farm like you, Emily actually went out there with Jenny to, like, look at the property where she was last seen. So we're gonna have photos up there today. It's still even very rural today, so you guys can kind of get a sense of what we're talking about for our city folk. Now, by September, probably feeling a tug of desperation, the police actually call in a psychic to make sure they're just leaving no stone unturned. But Even then, they have no luck locating Charlotte, or should I say Charlotte's remains, Because Jenny and Jeff are sure, sure, sure, sure that their mother is gone, and they're so sure who is responsible. So it's like salt in the wound for them when their father does an interview with the Herald and review and now publicly says that he thinks his wife is alive.

Britt (20:32)

Okay, Fred.

Ashley Flowers (20:33)

And this just pushes Jeff and Jenny even more, and they pressure authorities to convene a grand jury. And In October of 1981, they get their wish, sort of.

Britt (20:45)

What's a sorta grand jury?

Ashley Flowers (20:48)

There's a regular grand jury, not a sort of grand jury. But the problem is when Fred and his girlfriend Vicky appear before the grand jury, they just plead the fifth. So, like, the people they believe know something that they're, like, pushing this grand jury for aren't saying a word.

Britt (21:03)

Well, and it's also not like this is just a suspect off the streets for Jenny and Jeff. Like, this is their dad.

Ashley Flowers (21:09)

Yeah, I know.

Britt (21:09)

Are they, like, totally estranged by this point? Are they still trying to talk to him, convince him to, like, tell them what happened?

Ashley Flowers (21:16)

Jenny told us that she was for sure by that time, like, she was done. But she can't speak for her brother Jeff. She said that she has reasons to believe that Jeff was still speaking to their dad back then. But in the end, after this grand jury, the prosecutor informed her that they didn't have enough evidence for an indictment coming out of that. And when Jenny asked the prosecutor what they would need, he pointed to two things. He said, if this is going to move forward, we either need a body or we need a witness. But neither of those things were materializing. Then months turn into years. And By August of 1984, with her mother's case now three years old, Jenny hires a private investigator named Charles Pearson. And technically, at least according to a single source, like, he's actually the second PI Hired. Like, another brought on a few years earlier, didn't really make any real progress, like finding answers in the case. So this is the second one. Charles, though, has this idea that he thinks could help Jenny get what she needs. He discovers that by this point, Vicki McAllister and Fred Grabby are no longer together.

Britt (22:24)

Okay, I feel like this is one of your favorite little reminders. Years change things. Relationships.

Ashley Flowers (22:30)

Yeah, nobody wants. Nobody wants a case to go cold. But there is, like, this, like, point before you lose everyone in the case where, like, there. It could actually be a huge benefit if you didn't make progress before.

Britt (22:40)

Yeah, time makes people maybe change Their mind about talking like this could be huge for this case.

Ashley Flowers (22:45)

Right? And so this is what Charles is thinking, too. Now, at first, he wants to be sly about this, so he doesn't just, like, go straight to Vicki. He starts hanging around some bars where Vicky is known to drink, play pool. The Chicago Tribune reports that they meet at one of the bars, they become kind of friendly, and after he weasels his way in, gains her trust, whatever, he eventually drops the charade, explains that he's a PI and then presses Vicky on what she might know about Charlotte's disappearance. And to his surprise, Girl just tells him the truth. Like admitting, yes, she drove Charlotte's car that day and, yes, she knows exactly what happened because she witnessed it. And she goes on to tell him the horrific details of what Fred did to Charlotte on that July day back in 1981. And her story is pretty similar to what she told police back then. She said she and Fred arrive at the shed to pick up that barrel. And at some point, Charlotte came in from the field on her tractor. Vicki hides, just like he said. But when Fred and Charlotte get into this argument, this is where Vicky's story changes from her original one and from what Fred originally said. She says that now Fred, who's like 6, 4, 280 pounds, becomes violent, and he attacked the much smaller Charlotte and ultimately strangled her to death.

Britt (24:13)

And Vicky watches all of this.

Ashley Flowers (24:15)

Brit, she is, like, not just hiding in the truck. She's, like, peeking out from behind the truck. And she says that after Charlotte was dead, Fred loaded her body into that barrel that they, like, came to get, put it on the back of his truck, and then told Vicky to drive Charlotte's car. He even gave her some gloves to avoid prints, even a bandana to try and cover that hair that might be recognized. And then they dumped Charlotte's car in Terre Haute. Then they went to Vicki's place, about 20 minutes away in Rosedale. And if murdering his wife wasn't bad enough, Vicki says that once they got to her place, Fred stripped Charlotte and then sodomized her corpse.

Britt (24:59)

Oh, my God.

Ashley Flowers (25:00)

The horror show kept going when he took a grease gun. Like, I don't know if you've ever used, like, a caulk gun. Like, think of that. He filled Charlotte's body with grease. And Vicki said he did this because it would make Charlotte's body easier to burn. Basically, as the Forensic Files episode points out, the grease would be flammable. Like, clearly, Fred had a plan in mind.

Britt (25:24)

Honestly, this whole thing seems kind of premeditated. Like you're going to a shed to pick up a barrel and you end up putting your wife's body in the barrel after you kill her.

Ashley Flowers (25:34)

I know this dude is sick, and I don't know how, like, did it happen, even this way? Like, did Vicky know everything? I think there's a lot you can't know without being Fred. But she does know what happened next. So he loaded Charlotte's body back into the barrel. Then around sundown, they took it to the banks of the Wabash river and under the COVID of darkness. And maybe just as her kids were realizing their mom didn't come home that day, Fred poured diesel fuel into the barrel and lit it. And over the next two days, he burned Charlotte's body. And after that was through, Fred dumped the rest of her remains into the river, telling Vicky it would make for good fish bait.

Britt (26:16)

Jesus Christ. Awful.

Ashley Flowers (26:18)

Now, she said that the reason she had her fake story the first time is she was always too terrified to say anything, which, like, I mean, I kind of get, like, if he's gonna do that to the mother of his children, like, who are you, Vicky, to this guy? But somehow, now, again, all these years later, Charles convinces Vicki to tell this story to authorities. This episode is brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. At Saks.com, it's easy to find your new spring vibe. Whether it's refreshing your whole wardrobe or shopping for a vacation, Saks.com can make it fun and inspiring. Saks.com is personalized with arrivals from brands picked just for you. So it's easy to find inspiration for your everyday. You can shop for anything on your agenda, like a larger than life Balenciaga bag for work or. Or a Zimmerman dress for an upcoming wedding. Find inspiration for your personal style every day. Shop Saks.com this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's talk numbers. Traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to $250 per session, which adds up fast. But with BetterHelp online therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. With BetterHelp, you can pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on cost and on time. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury. With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense. Your mental health is worth it. And now it's within reach. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient too. You can join a session with the click of a button helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus, switch therapists at any time. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com crimejunkie to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com crimejunkie Vicky takes the police to the scene where Charlotte's body was burned, even pointing to the tree that the barrel was up against. The problem is, it's been too long. They even try, like, testing the soil to see, like, what's there, but they don't find anything. Not even so much as evidence of diesel fuel left behind.

Britt (28:47)

But the prosecution asked for a body or a witness. Now they have a witness.

Ashley Flowers (28:53)

They do. They do. And because they have a witness, true to their word, in November 1984, both Fred and Vicki are arrested. Now, Vicky, they need her. She's the witness who's, like, all this hinges on. Yeah, they offer her a deal of immunity to testify against Fred. There's even some talk of her possibly receiving the reward for this, which was like, $25,000 at that point, if Fred got convicted. Big if. Because prosecutors know convicting Fred isn't gonna be easy. Like, right.

Britt (29:25)

Like, even with this witness, it's still a no case, a nobody know. Those are just notoriously tricky.

Ashley Flowers (29:31)

Yeah. And it's basically just Fred's word against Vicky's. So they need to figure out how to find a way to corroborate what Vicki is saying, like, show that her version is the truth. So in the spring of 1985, with the trial just around the corner. Corner. Prosecutors get creative. Since any physical evidence connecting Fred to Charlotte has, I mean, basically been destroyed when he burned her body, prosecutors turned to the one thing still literally standing. That tree that Vicki said the barrow was set against while Charlotte's body burned. Now, knowing they didn't find anything when they tested the soil, they wondered if maybe that tree might still hold some evidence. So they call in, wait for it, because I've never heard this term, some plant pathologists from the University of Illinois.

Britt (30:19)

You know, every day in this job, I learn something new.

Ashley Flowers (30:23)

I know plant pathologists. Plant pathologists. Now, what this guy discovers, Britt, is wild. He takes some samples of the tree and then looks at the growth rings. And then he can see Somehow that in 1981, most likely in the summer, that's literally how detailed they can get. Some kind of damage to the tree took place. And when his colleague examines things further, he can pinpoint some trace of petroleum, AKA diesel fuel. And like, it is that petroleum or that diesel fuel that caused the damage. They didn't stop there, though, because they can even tell that branches on the other side of the tree away from where Vicki said that the barrel was placed, those are totally fine. They didn't have the same damage.

Britt (31:07)

So unless someone else just happened to be randomly burning a barrel next to this same side of this tree in the summer of 81.

Ashley Flowers (31:14)

Like she's telling the truth.

Britt (31:15)

Yeah, our girl's story's spot on.

Ashley Flowers (31:17)

Yes, and the truth can be dangerous when you're up against Fred Grabby. Because according to the police files that we have, this is where Fred's old buddy Dale suddenly comes back on the scene. Police get a tip from a guy named Jim who says that Dale approached him and was feeling him out for a murder for hire job on Vicky.

Britt (31:40)

What did Dale get arrested for?

Ashley Flowers (31:42)

This doesn't sound like it. I don't see. I know. I don't see anything about him being arrested or like, what came of this. Like, maybe we have to take all of this with a grain of salt because it should be noted that Jim had a long criminal record himself. He'd just been arrested for counterfeit or counterfeiting something, whatever. So, I mean, he could have been making all of this up to get himself out of trouble or like, get himself a deal or whatever. I don't know. And again, Dale's no longer alive, so I can't ask him either way. Possible murder for higher plot or not, the trial does go on as planned. Prosecutors are able to prove their case to the jury by putting those tree experts on the stand, along with Vicki and Fred's own children, who do not hold back. The Journal Gazette and Times Courier reports that Jenny describes at times seeing bruising on her mother's arms and her face. And it appears that all of this is enough for the jury because in June 1985, Fred is convicted of Charlotte's murder. But that is not where our story ends, not even close, because just a few weeks after his conviction, a mother of three named Barbara Graham walks into the Clark county jail and whips out a gun because she's there to break her boyfriend Fred out of jail. Barbara fires off five shots, one of which hits a deputy in the leg. Another shot literally goes through a second deputy's pant leg, nearly wounding them, too. It is just total chaos before deputies are finally able to wrestle the gun from Barbara and end this bananas breakout attempt.

Britt (33:22)

Did Fred put Barbara up to this?

Ashley Flowers (33:24)

Well, Fred told us that Barbara basically informed him of her Plan while he was behind bars. Fred's like, no, babe, it's a bad idea. Don't do it. But. But of course, like, when you talk to anyone who's not Fred, like, the story's very different.

Britt (33:39)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (33:40)

When authorities interview Barbara, she told them that Fred was instructing her on things to do, like making sure she practices with the gun, making sure she packed clothes for him, and he was pressuring her to spend all of her time working on getting him out. And the whole thing gets even wilder when she tells authorities that the getaway plan was to hop on a private plane and fly to Florida, pick up new identification there, and then fly to South America. Which, like, how? And, yeah, like, to really drive any suspicion home. Authorities think that the gun used in all of this was actually the same gun that was found in Charlotte's car back when she was missing. When they found her car. Like, so apparently after the grand jury, like, let down back in 81, they gave that gun back to Fred.

Britt (34:30)

What?

Ashley Flowers (34:30)

I know. I mean, again, like, Jenny told us that he was the owner of it. So, like, I mean, technically, it would be his. If that's true.

Britt (34:40)

Okay. If I were cop suspecting a guy of murder, top of my to do list after he skirts an indictment isn't return gun to rightful owner. Like, especially when that man is the person who possibly just got out of a murder charge.

Ashley Flowers (34:53)

I know. And I don't know if they have to because there was no indictment. In my mind, I've seen people hold evidence forever.

Britt (34:58)

Yeah. Like, it's still evidence.

Ashley Flowers (35:00)

I know. I don't know.

Britt (35:01)

Does this little jailbreak attempt, plot twist result in, like, additional charges for Fred now?

Ashley Flowers (35:07)

Well, so because he was just convicted of his wife's murder, and prosecutors figure he's. I mean, I'm assuming this is what they're thinking. Like, he's going to be away for a long time. Like, though he still has yet to be sentenced, at that point, they don't actually pursue charges against him for all of this. Barbara, though, is another story. So per the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, she's charged with attempted murder and two counts of armed violence.

Britt (35:31)

I'm sorry, Ashley. I feel like I need to see, like, a picture of Fred or something. Like, what kind of power does he have over these women to get them to do this, like, truly wild stuff?

Ashley Flowers (35:42)

I literally had the same thought when I was researching this, because I was. I didn't look at a ton of pictures, like, off the bat, and I was like, okay, he's, like, getting women to Do a ton of, like, wild stuff for him. Who is this cult leader? It's not what you're gonna expect.

Britt (35:54)

I truly don't know what to expect.

Ashley Flowers (35:56)

Here's our guy.

Britt (35:58)

Okay. Okay.

Ashley Flowers (36:01)

Yeah. So, I mean, whatever, Whatever. Like, but again, not the.

Britt (36:05)

Like, not the beautiful, handsome, charismatic looking. Charismatic being maybe in his younger years. All right, moving on now.

Ashley Flowers (36:16)

Whatever hold he had over them, whoever he found that he was able to manipulate, like, it's not. It's not just like, his wife that he killed, that suffered. Like, I feel like there were so many devastating consequences to these women. Like Barbara, who, reminder, mother of three, ends up getting sentenced to 16 years in prison for this stunt. But with Fred sitting in jail, breakout attempt thwarted, and his sentencing on the horizon, authorities have to be ready to get this guy locked up for good and move on. But in early September, less than two months after this breakout attempt, authorities have their hands full with another crime that maybe could be connected to Fred. On September 4, 1985, authorities get a call that they probably can't believe. As reported by the Herald and Review. It's from a truck driver who, while passing the Grappie property, sees not one, but two homes on fire. One is the main house where Charlotte lived, and the other is a smaller house once occupied by her son Jeff and his wife, Cindy. Thankfully, when this all happens, no one is inside. But immediately, authorities suspect that this is arson. And it's not long before they get proof of it when they discover that some kind of flammable liquid was used to start these fires or, like, get them going.

Britt (37:40)

I mean, it's Fred, right? Not like, Fred Fred because he's in county lockup, but like. But like, it's Fred. Someone for Fred.

Ashley Flowers (37:47)

So in the Forensic Files episode, Dan Krumren, the acting sheriff at the time, suspects just that. But we actually dug a little deeper on this. My new favorite saying. Always go a layer deeper. And Jenny told us something else that has been suggested by law enforcement but never actually proven. She says that it was actually her brother Jeff who burned down the homes. And she said that he admitted this to her. It was maybe an attempt to get the insurance money, possibly with Fred maybe on his own. Like, that's not totally clear. According to her recollection, though, that was never actually paid out. And it sounds like, at least according to the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, these homes were caught up in some kind of legal mess at the time anyway. So whatever the plan was, I'm not sure that it worked for whoever had that plan, but it's important to point out that it doesn't appear police could ever connect Fred or anyone else, not Jeff, to these fires. All they could do was was speculate at the time. About a week after this fire, this is when Fred does get sentenced, and he gets sentenced to life in prison. So at this point, for law enforcement and the grabby family, justice is finally served. But that feeling is short lived. Roughly a year after his original sentencing, Fred's case gets overturned on appeal. This is in September of 1986, and a new trial gets ordered. According to the Journal Gazette, it's overturned because the courts find jurors were given improper instructions concerning Vicky's testimony specifically.

Britt (39:25)

I mean, all a good defense attorney needs is to find one small crack. And it sounds like they found one.

Ashley Flowers (39:31)

Well, that and get the right judge in the right county. Because, I mean, I've seen, like, other cases where there's like a gaping hole you could run a truck through, and those get denied, but here overturned. So while prosecutors wait to retry Fred for Charlotte's murder, they decide to go after him for his possible involvement with the escape attempt back in 1985 to keep him locked up. Now, initially, they knew Fred would go away for a long time, so remember, they didn't see the point in taking him to court on those minor charges. But now, with his ruling overturned, like, okay, let's get him on something. But their plan doesn't work. First, there's a mistrial for that. Then Fred is acquitted. Acquitted for that. So the stakes in Fred's retrial for Charlotte's murder hold even more weight. Now, in March 1988, the new trial is about to begin. And much like the first time, Fred's children, Jenny and Jeff, are supposed to testify against their dad. But there's a problem. Jeff's wife Cindy, hasn't heard from Jeff in days. He's like, fully MIA which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Like, he was scheduled to testify again.

Britt (40:39)

Wait, is he, like, missing missing or just like, hiding out, avoiding the trial?

Ashley Flowers (40:44)

I don't think anyone really knows. At least one source at the time reported that he might have been trying to dodge his creditor. So I think everyone is just really confused at first. Jeff's wife Cindy tells authorities that Jeff had taken a business trip to California. She last talked to him on February 28 when he called her from there. And then a couple of days later, after he's like a no show back home, that's when she reports him missing. This episode is brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue@saks.com, it's easy to find your new spring vibe. Whether it's refreshing your whole wardrobe or shopping for a vacation, Saks.com can make it fun and inspiring. Saks.com is personalized with arrivals from brands picked just for you, so it's easy to find inspiration for your everyday. You can shop for anything on your agenda, like a larger than life Balenciaga bag for work or a Zimmerman dress for an upcoming wedding. Find inspiration for your personal style every day. Shopsax.com.

C (41:45)

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Ashley Flowers (42:19)

No one can find Jeff in Indiana or California until June, when authorities announce that they have found Jeff in Seal Beach, California. But it's not a happy development because they find him dead. And not just dead. Jeff has been murdered. What? He was shot multiple times and found floating in the water by some boaters. Now, authorities technically found Jeff's body on March 22, but they couldn't identify him right away. They had to actually go get his dental records.

Britt (42:52)

So we're thinking that Fred killed Charlotte and his son.

Ashley Flowers (42:57)

So Fred, of course, denies any involvement in his son's murder. And actually in this one, he might not be lying because California authorities did seem to have a pretty detailed idea of what happened to Jeff. Like, I guess he had gotten caught up in some kind of money laundering and bank fraud thing. In a Los Angeles Times article, police described Jeff as double crossing the people that he was working with. So Jeff was shot and his body was then dumped in the ocean, weighed down by an anchor. And then eventually as his body decomposed, that's when it like floated to the surface.

Britt (43:29)

Did anyone get charged in Jeff's murder?

Ashley Flowers (43:31)

No. So even though they had a pretty good idea of what they think happened and even some of the people involved, it sounds like prosecutors never actually felt they had a strong enough case to be able to bring charges in that one. Now the Very smallest piece of solace and good news for Jenny in this, like, mountain of tragedy that is her life now is that even though her brother wasn't around to testify, Fred's trial did move forward as planned. And he was convicted again. This time, he's sentenced to 75 years. And this one sticks. Despite Fred's best efforts to once again have it overturned in 1989, it doesn't work. And he remains in prison until very recently, July 15, 2022, when he gets released. Almost 41 years exactly after he murdered Charlotte in July of 1981.

Britt (44:23)

And did Vicki end up with any of the reward money?

Ashley Flowers (44:26)

Uh, Jenny told us that she got part of it, so yes. Ish. Now, as far as her father, Jenny told us that she long ago forgave him. She said what was most difficult for her was not knowing what happened to her mother when she first disappeared. And she talked about how bad she feels for families who still don't have those answers. We've talked about it before, like, how it's one thing to, like, grieve something and know what you're grieving, but to, like, not know. Right. And as we were talking to her about this, this was like, originally all the episode was, we were like, this was gonna even potentially be a mini. But she said something as we were talking to her, something she thinks about her father. Something that, if true, might mean we don't know the full extent of Fred Grabby's crimes. And it opened up this, like, Pandora's box for us. Jenny believes that her father could be behind as many as six other killings.

Britt (45:21)

I'm sorry, six other people? Are you kidding me? What makes her think that she thinks this?

Ashley Flowers (45:28)

Because one of them, she says she witnessed her son self when she was about 7 years old. And then the other ones are based on what people told her over the years because she didn't stop digging once her father went to jail. I guess she pressed on for more answers. And from what she was told, it sounds like wherever Fred Grabby went, death seemed to follow. And this wasn't a totally new idea. Like, Vicky was also vocal about Fred allegedly having other victims. According to the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, Vicki testified in Fred's trial that he told her about other murders he committed. Two of the other victims were women, and their killings happened at an apartment in Indianapolis and were connected to some kind of union dispute that he was in charge of taking care of. And she alleged that Fred also killed a man who shot his dog when he was younger. But, like Fred told Emily when. When she confronted him about this, that, like, it was one of his buddies who did this, and it got pinned on him. So he's not, like, saying it didn't happen.

Britt (46:33)

Were any of these ever investigated?

Ashley Flowers (46:35)

So this is the thing where I'm saying it's a Pandora's box. We don't know. Like, details on these are super scarce. Believe me, we still have our team digging, like, still going. It's part of why I wanted to put this episode out now as opposed to waiting, because there's a lot of power in our audience and someone out there might have information for us. And I think we're running out of time. Because Fred is 85 years old. Jenny told us that she doesn't think he's in good health. Obviously, she doesn't go visit him again. Forgiving him and having a relationship with him are very different things.

Britt (47:08)

Different things.

Ashley Flowers (47:09)

But we went and visited him. When our reporter Emily interviewed Fred at the retirement facility he's currently living in, she asked him about these alleged other murders that people like Jenny and Vicky put point to. And she asked him about Charlotte's murder, too. And while Fred admits that he was a violent man at times, involved in numerous fights, back in the day, he denied murdering anyone, including Charlotte, despite being found guilty by two separate juries. He claims he was never even abusive to Charlotte. And you would think that the least Fred could do at this point in his life is face what he's done, if not for himself, then for his surviving daughter. But no. And we asked him about the house fires, too. He conveniently put that all on Jeff, his dead son, never implicating himself. But I think it is important to note that those house fires, not the only ones, somewhat connected to Fred. Charlotte's stepmom, Ethel Gore, was found dead in a barn fire. A barn fire that had one single witness, Fred Grabby. And according to a single source, Ethel's leg was broken and there was a lighter near her body. But Ethel's family told the Terre Haute star back then that a lighter is not something she would normally carry around with her. Now, when we asked Fred about this, he told Emily that Ethel smoked in the barn all the time. So who knows? But wait, there's more. So Charlotte's best friend, Judy Lindley, she was found dead of a gunshot wound to her chest just four months to the day after Charlotte went missing. And Emily got the inquest records for Judy's death, and get this, no autopsy was done, and the results of the inquest were, quote, probable suicide. But this is the thing that I have a problem with. Like, Judy was found in her bed on top of the covers. The gun that she allegedly took her own life with was under the covers.

Britt (49:17)

That. That can't happen. That's not possible.

Ashley Flowers (49:20)

I can't figure out how.

Britt (49:21)

It doesn't make sense.

Ashley Flowers (49:22)

I know now it bears repeating that Fred has never been arrested or charged in anyone else's murder. And he's never been named a public person of interest or even a suspect in another murder either. We reached out to the former Clark County Sheriff Dan Crumren, but he wasn't interested in talking. If he changes his mind, like, I'd love to listen to what he has to say. And like I said, we are still going to keep digging to see what else we find. I mean, again, there are like potentially alleged victims that, like, we can't even necessarily find cases that match too. So we're trying to figure that out as well. So this is a great reminder for everyone to make sure you hit the follow button, subscribe wherever you're listening to make sure that you get update episodes. And also follow us on social. We have a newsletter on our website as well. Like, all of these are ways to get updates on cases that, like, we just can't let go of. Even after we talk about them on Monday.

Britt (50:19)

Yeah. And obviously you said we're still digging, we're still working on this, but was Em ever able to track down Vicky? Like, she's who I have all the questions for, girl.

Ashley Flowers (50:29)

Same. So this is wild. So we tried. Emily actually went to Vicky's house and it was so strange. So this woman who looks a whole lot like Vicki answered the door, but she said she wasn't Vicki. So I don't know.

Britt (50:44)

I mean, I can't really blame her for not wanting to talk after all these years.

Ashley Flowers (50:48)

If that was her.

Britt (50:49)

If it was her, it's seems like she possibly would have a lot to lose. Like, she's never faced any jail time. She had immunity.

Ashley Flowers (50:56)

Yeah.

Britt (50:56)

But said it wasn't her.

Ashley Flowers (50:59)

Right. So if Vicky hears this, if you're listening somewhere, like, I would still love to talk, please reach out, but I kind of want to end on this. So Jenny told us that her mom, Charlotte, was a loving mother and grandmother. Most of all, she was a hard worker. And Charlotte grew up in a farming family that instilled the city same work ethic in her. And whether Jenny realizes it or not, that work ethic, her continued push for answers in her mother's case is maybe the best way she could have honored her mother's memory. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

Britt (51:50)

You can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.

Ashley Flowers (51:53)

And we'll be back next Monday with a brand new episode. SA Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

D (52:44)

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Ashley Flowers (53:15)

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Britt (53:26)

They've got the best gifts because I.

Ashley Flowers (53:28)

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