MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey

Summary

Crime Junkie Podcast Summary: "MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey"

Released on November 22, 2024

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Introduction and Context

In this gripping episode of Crime Junkie, host Ashley Flowers delves deep into one of the most infamous and enduringly mysterious true crime cases: the murder of six-year-old JonBenét Ramsey. Accompanied by her co-host Britt, Ashley unpacks the intricate details, conflicting theories, and unresolved questions that have plagued this case for decades.

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Discovery of JonBenét's Disappearance

The episode begins with a dramatic reenactment of the morning JonBenét Ramsey was reported missing. Ashley Flowers narrates:

[06:07] Ashley Flowers: "A note was left and your daughter is gone."

On December 26, 1996, Patsy Ramsey, JonBenét's mother, discovered her daughter missing from their upscale Boulder, Colorado, home. The initial 911 call captured the panic and urgency of the moment, setting the stage for a media frenzy that would follow.

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Initial Police Response

Upon receiving the report, Boulder Police were baffled. The Ramsey household, a sprawling 6,000-square-foot home with over 15 rooms, showed no signs of forced entry or struggle. Officer French, the first responder, quickly assessed the scene:

[07:13] Unknown Speaker: "The ransom note was found on the wooden floor just off the kitchen near the stairs."

Despite the apparent lack of evidence pointing to an intruder, officers found themselves overwhelmed as friends and family flooded the home seeking support, complicating the investigation.

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The Ransom Note

Central to the case is the three-page handwritten ransom note demanding $118,000, split between $100 bills and $20 bills, and threatening JonBenét's life if instructions were not followed precisely. Ashley highlights the peculiarities of the note:

[10:25] Ashley Flowers: "The ransom note is highly unusual, both in its specificity and its language."

Key anomalies include the odd amount requested, the cryptic reference to "SBTC Victory," and references that seemed tailored to John Ramsey's business acumen. Handwriting analysis was inconclusive, leaving room for speculation about the note's authenticity and origin.

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Family's Actions and Media Interaction

Despite the ransom note warning against contacting the police, Patsy Ramsey promptly called law enforcement. However, tensions quickly escalated between the Ramsey family and the Boulder Police Department, especially after an unexpected CNN interview:

[02:09] Ashley Flowers: "And I'm finally fricking doing it... The case that is our Crime Junkie origin story."

The Ramses' decision to go on CNN was influenced by legal counsel and fueled suspicions of police bias. This public declaration strained their relationship with law enforcement, leading to years of mistrust and legal battles.

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Suspicion and Theories

Detective Linda Arndt, assigned to the case, became suspicious of the Ramsey family's behavior, particularly John Ramsey's seemingly detached and strategic actions during the crisis:

[43:33] Ashley Flowers: "John's in action mode... trying to get the money, figure this out."

Contrary theories emerged, including the possibility of an intruder versus internal family involvement. Proponents of the intruder theory, like investigator Lou Smith, pointed to the broken basement window and alleged foreign DNA evidence as indicators of an external perpetrator.

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Autopsy Findings

The autopsy revealed that JonBenét died from a combination of asphyxiation and blunt force trauma to the head. Notably, severe head injuries suggested her death was not instantaneous:

[58:16] Ashley Flowers: "The autopsy report indicates a combination of strangulation and blunt force trauma."

Additional findings, such as vaginal trauma and chronic injuries dated weeks before her death, hinted at possible prior abuse, though no definitive evidence linked these to the cause of her murder.

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Subsequent Investigations and Developments

Over the years, the case saw numerous developments, including DNA testing advancements and external inquiries. Despite these efforts, no conclusive evidence ever emerged to identify the murderer. Detective Steve Thomas publicly criticized the Boulder DA's handling of the investigation, leading to internal conflicts within the department.

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DNA Evidence and Complications

Advancements in DNA technology brought new hope when a male DNA profile was found on JonBenét's underwear. However, this evidence remained inconclusive due to limitations in 1997's testing capabilities:

[69:46] Unknown Speaker: "This is DNA evidence, not a full match."

Years later, ongoing DNA testing with modern techniques still failed to produce a match, leaving the case unresolved. Complications arose when it was discovered that an analyst, Yvonne Missy Woods, had tampered with DNA testing processes between 2008 and 2023, prompting further uncertainty in the investigation's integrity.

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Media and Public Perception

Media involvement has been a double-edged sword in the JonBenét Ramsey case. Initial sensational coverage often led to biased narratives against the Ramsey family, especially focusing on their daughter's pageant participation and the family's wealth. The family's portrayal as potential suspects in tabloid media further complicated public perception and hindered the investigation.

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Conclusions and Current Status

As of the episode's release in November 2024, the JonBenét Ramsey case remains unsolved. The Ramsey family's trust in law enforcement eroded over years of legal disputes and media scrutiny. Despite ongoing DNA tests and public interest, no definitive answers have been found. John Ramsey continues to seek justice for his daughter, advocating for legislative changes and leveraging modern forensic techniques, while the true perpetrator remains unidentified.

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Notable Quotes

• Ashley Flowers [06:07]: "A note was left and your daughter is gone."
• Ashley Flowers [10:25]: "The ransom note is highly unusual, both in its specificity and its language."
• Ashley Flowers [43:33]: "John's in action mode... trying to get the money, figure this out."
• Unknown Speaker [69:46]: "This is DNA evidence, not a full match."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Crime Junkie sheds light on the complexities and lingering mysteries surrounding JonBenét Ramsey's tragic death. Through meticulous examination of evidence, investigative challenges, and media influence, Ashley Flowers provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of why this case continues to captivate and confound true crime enthusiasts worldwide.

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For a more in-depth exploration, listeners are encouraged to watch the exclusive interview with John Ramsey available on the Crime Junkie YouTube channel and follow the latest developments as the quest for JonBenét's killer persists.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

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[Britt]

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[Ashley Flowers]

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[Ashley Flowers]

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[Ashley Flowers]

Hi crime junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I'm Britt.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I'm finally fricking doing it.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're going on tour.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well yes. Yeah. So that's happening. Crime Junkie Tour is real. Make sure you're in the fan club if you want to buy tickets early. Fan Club will get Access on Monday, December 2nd. Go to our website. I'll link to all the things in the show notes. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. That's not what I actually meant. I am doing the case that I said I would never do. The case that is our Crime Junkie origin story.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, we've said it a million times. But I mean never say never. Right?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And like for I think it is for a long time I just didn't think that there was anything that I could add.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

Like it's been done, you know, seven ways to Sunday. I literally feel like there are more like or less versions of the Bible than there are of, like, books written by people who, like, maybe even tangentially touched this case.

[Unknown Speaker]

So, like, what would we have to add?

[Ashley Flowers]

Right? That's kind of how it always felt. But what I didn't realize is, like, I didn't know the whole story. And I, of course, am talking about the case of JonBenet Ramsay.

[Unknown Speaker]

And when you say, like, our origin story, like, we were tabloid height when it happened. This is what made us crime junkies.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. People always ask, like, how did you become a crime junkie? And I'm like, you know, my mom, my grandma, they got me into mysteries. I was reading everything, but really weird. About the same age as JonBenet, which her dad reminded me of. When I sat down with him and we were in the grocery store and it was like, the first time you look at somebody who looks like you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who'S your age, and all you see is, like, murdered across her forehead.

[Ashley Flowers]

And it's when those, like, mysteries, I was like, oh, this thing. These kind of things happen in real life. So for a generation who didn't grow up tabloid height, staring into the green eyes of a beauty queen in the making, and for those of us who did but maybe don't know all the facts or maybe just know this case, like, on a surface level. And you want to really know how we got here and what you can do now. I got you. I have dug deep. I thought I knew everything there was to know about JonBenet because I grew up with the case. But I found out that what I knew was just the tip of the freaking iceberg. You guys, I have all the same questions that you do. And I even got to ask those questions to one of the people at the center of this case. Someone who has been dubbed a child killer by the media, but says that it is all a lie. And he and his family have been victimized twice. Once by an unknown killer and once again by the media. And I actually filmed my conversation with him. You can find that and this episode on the Crime Junkie YouTube channel. And I promise you, you're not gonna wanna miss it. But first, let me tell you the story. Not from any side. I have no theory. I thought one thing when I was young, another thing when I was older. But what I realized when I actually dug deep is had a real understanding of the facts. And that is what I hope to give you. So if you are looking for a one stop Shop to give you the case a layer deeper than you will hear anywhere else. This episode's for you. This is the story of JonBenet Ramsey. What's going on there? Ma'am, we have a kidnapping. Hurry. Please explain to me what's going on. Okay, there. We have a. There's a note left in our dog. Your daughter's gone.

[Unknown Speaker]

A note was left and your daughter is gone.

[Ashley Flowers]

How old is your daughter? Six years old. She's gone. Six years old. How long ago was it?

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know. I could tell the notes and my daughter who took her. What does it say, Lieutenant? I don't know. There's a ransom note here.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's a ransom note.

[Unknown Speaker]

It says SBTC Victory.

[Ashley Flowers]

Please.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, what's your name?

[Ashley Flowers]

Are you Kathy Ramsey?

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm the lover.

[Ashley Flowers]

Oh my God. Please. Okay, I'm sending an officer over.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay?

[Ashley Flowers]

Please. Do you know how long she's been gone? No, I don't. Please, we just got absent. You aren't here. Oh my God. Please. Okay, I am. Honey, please take a deep breath. Please hurry.

[Britt]

Hurry, hurry.

[Ashley Flowers]

Patty. Patty. Patty. Patty. That feels like the 911 call heard round the world by this point. But when it first came into Boulder Police on December 26, 1996 at 5:52 in the morning, they had no clue how infamous this call was going to become. All they knew was that they had a report of a kidnapping in an upscale neighborhood of their safe little community. Now, Patsy says that she made two more calls to friends of theirs after the 911 call. The whites and the Fernies. She was asking them to come over for support before she went to like pace in front of their window. Now what in actuality was probably just a couple of minutes felt to her like hours. And when the marked car pulled up at 5:55, she says her heart sank because the ransom letter had said not to call police and that kidnappers were watching and if they saw police, that they would hurt JonBenet. But it was too late. Now, when Officer French made it inside, John immediately took him to where the three page handwritten ransom note was like splayed out on the wooden floor just off the kitchen near the stairs that Patsy had found it on. And Britt, I'm going to have you. Would you mind actually reading it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, sure. The ransom note says, Mr. Ramsey, listen carefully. We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country that it serves. At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed. And if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter. You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. 100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining 18,000 in 20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting, so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence an earlier pickup of your daughter. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you, so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police, FBI, etc. Will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain, John. You are not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good Southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now, John.

[Ashley Flowers]

Victory SBTC so, okay, so that's the letter that they're working with. And what we know is the Ramses had an alarm system, but they hadn't said it the night before or actually even in a long time. Not since it had gone off accidentally and scared the living pants off JonBenet and her older brother Burke, who by the way is nine at this point and still asleep upstairs in his room according to mom and dad. Now they say that they had checked on him once when they realized that JonBenet was missing, but once they saw that he was okay, they wanted to just let him sleep. I like I'm assuming they probably just didn't want him to worry till they had a better idea of what was going on and like, what they were gonna do, like once they knew that there was going to be help, then they would worry about it. So Officer French does this quick skim of the house. And I say quick, but this Puppy was over 6,000. I mean, I've heard one place like 7,000 square feet had like 15 rooms, four different floors if you include the basement. But French does this quick look through. He doesn't see anything that jumps out. His report says that there were no signs of forced entry or a struggle and obviously no signs of the missing six year old. So he moved to instructing another officer, Sergeant Reichenbach, to control the scene. And A, I don't know when Reichenbach showed up, but you'll see more people kind of start like flooding in. And B, controlling the scene is a loose term in this story and something Boulder police will get roasted for down the line. Because within 15 minutes of French's arrival, those friends that Patsy had called start showing up. Priscilla and Fleet White had been their first call, followed by John and Barbara Fernie and. And somehow the family priest gets contacted along the way. And like one by one these people are showing up and they're there by like 7:13. Now, while John Ramsey made calls to try and line up that $118,000 that the kidnapper had asked for, more and more people were showing up too. So they had victim advocates that came to the house. There were finally some detectives that got there by like 8, 10 that morning, namely Linda Arndt, who was charged with managing the situation. Now what John told me that he didn't know at the time were that these weren't seasoned homicide or missing persons detectives. What the detectives didn't know at the time was that this wasn't a missing persons case.

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[Ashley Flowers]

As the clock ticked, every moment in the house was tense. Burke Ramsey, JonBenet's nine year old brother, had been woken up and removed from the home. By this point, their friend Fleet White, who was one of the people Patsy had called to come over. He had taken Burke back to their house. And while Patsy cried in one room with her friends by her side, John was in another, taking instructions from Detective Arndt about what to do if the kidnapper called. And he's like going through the mail. He told me to see if there's any other communications from the kidnapper and he told me that he was in just like do do do mode, like action mode. He thought that if he kept his wits about him, that's the saying he always used. If I keep my wits about me, then if I'm smart, like I could still actually get my daughter back, I can figure this out right now. Plenty of people had been looking around the house without finding anything, but John wanted to keep moving. So at at some point that morning, exact time, a little fuzzy tbd. But at some point that morning he went down to the basement, which this.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is a point that Boulder police gets roasted on. Right. Like people are just all over the house contaminating the crap out of like what is actually a crime scene.

[Ashley Flowers]

Oh yeah, they. It's kind of wild. They had blocked off JonBenet's room like five hours after Detective French got to the house. But everything else was like a free for all, like, have at it. It seems like people were all over the place. Nothing was off limits except Jean Benet's room. Except her room. Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And there's nothing that stands out about her room, right?

[Ashley Flowers]

No, I mean, like, so her covers were pulled back like someone had got her out of bed. There's some stuff that becomes interesting a little bit later, which I can get into, but nothing that really stands out in there. It looks like a room that a kid had just kind of truly gotten like plucked out from in the middle of the night. So to get back to it though, so John goes to the basement. At some point that morning when he did his 1997 interview, his best guess was like, maybe it was sometime around or before 10am but he goes down. He doesn't report finding anything to Detective Arndt or any of the other officers. Now, no one made note of the time when 10 o'clock came and went and there was no communication from the kidnapped like they said in the note. There were calls throughout the morning. I mean, at least three according to Detective Arndt's report. And each time John would run to the phone, he would answer the call. But each time it was just some well meaning friend checking in. And like word was spreading at this point now, Linda Arndt kept paging for backup. She had kicked a good number of people out of the house by this point. Officers, the victim advocates, but all of the family friends were still there. And it was a hard scene to control. But page after page, she was getting no response. And when she tried to phone in, she was told that everyone was in a meeting. That's what she said in her Good Morning America interview. So it's just she's not getting the help that she needs. And as more time passed, Linda Arndt felt like she needed to keep John's mind occupied. By 12:30, she makes a note that he seems to be isolating himself and just kind of staring like. So she's like, I gotta give him something to do. So after a conversation with one of the family friends, Fleet White, she suggests to jon that excluding JonBenet's room, he should check the house top to bottom, see if there's anything even missing. John took the instruction to heart, but he decided instead to search bottom to top. At 1pm he went for the door to the basement with Fleet close behind him. And within five minutes, everything was chaos. There was screams. Fleet was bounding up the stairs and Detective Arndt made it to the doorway in time to see John coming up the final few steps. Like holding JonBenet by her waist, her body was already stiff with rigor. Her head was turned to one side and her arms were above her head with some kind of like white string or cord rope kind of thing hanging from one of her wrists. Detective Arndt told John, you, like, put JonBenet down by the front door. She said that her lips were already blue, like she knew she was dead. But she still checks for a pulse anyway. But she was cold to the touch when she touches her. So Linda Arndt moves JonBenet's body to another spot on the first floor. And Jon asks to cover her up with a blanket, which she let him.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do, which is more contamination.

[Ashley Flowers]

This is like the worst case scenario here because it's not even just the blanket. Like, John held her at some point, like, he's like laying on the floor. And when Patsy comes into the room she laid on top of while she's crying, like, literally she's like praying to Jesus, like, asking him. I think the line is, like, you raised Lazarus, like, please raise my baby. So to your point, like, you have all of this contamination happening. But Linda Arndt called 911 telling them, like, I need an ambulance, I need a coroner, like, whatever. Like, the delay is in getting people here. Like, you have to get people here now. She called again when they still hadn't come a few minutes later, and then again after she saw an ambulance drive past the house. So this is like the Murphy's Law of crime scenes. Everything that could go wrong was going wrong. But now it was time for everyone to get out, Ramsey's and friends included. So while a search warrant was being obtained for the house and JonBenet was sent off for autopsy, detectives tried to speak more with the family. One detective was sent to go talk to Burke, who basically just told him, like, everything in our house was normal. Like, our parents weren't abusive. There weren't any arguments on or leading up to Christmas Day. So, like, nothing meaningful from him. And that evening, Linda Arndt and another detective went to speak with John Ramsey. They were staying at A friend's house. And by the time Linda got there, there were even more people that had come to be with them. They had more friends. Even the family doctor, Dr. Buff was there. And sometimes he's called the family doctor, sometimes he's called Domini's pediatrician. It might be like a little bit of both. He'd given Patsy a Valium, So Linda didn't see her when she came by, but she did get to talk to John for about 40 minutes. And it's worth noting that she talked to John during her time at the home as well. Like, so she and others had gone the initial story of the day, like, or days leading up to John B. Day's death. And John points to this fact a lot when I talk to him. Because if you know this story, you'll know that a big part of the narrative is the fact that the family, they say they didn't cooperate, they didn't talk to police for a long time. But John points to this and he says, look, yes, we did. We talked to them in our home and in our friend's home. And that is true. And it is also true that they stopped cooperating after that 40 minute meeting. And here's why. So according to John Ramsey, he told me he had gotten a call within the first, like, day or two. We're talking the 26th, 27th from the person he told me who ran his HR at his company. And they told him, like, hey, I have this inside source telling me that the police are looking at you and Patsy for this. You need to lawyer up. Well, advice taken because of the friends who were sitting alongside John Ramsey that evening when Linda had come during that, like, 40 minute conversation was a guy named Mike Bynum. Mike was John Ramsey's corporate counsel at his company. So when police had left that night, like, after that 40 minute thing, they suggested a formal sit down with the Ramseys. Obviously, tensions were high. Patsy was currently incapacitated. And the majority of their interactions had been when they thought that JonBenet was a missing person. Like, there was plenty more questions that needed to be asked by police, which I agree with. Like, at least everything that made it into the reports about the conversations they had in those early days when they were speaking. It's pretty surface level. I mean, we get some, like, immediate people that they suspect. Does anything in the note stand out to them, like, who has keys to the house, et cetera. But if they were going to find out who killed JonBenet, they were going to have to go a few layers deeper. So Linda suggested like let's do this, sit down at the station on the 28th. But either in that moment or maybe later, it's not totally clear from Linda's report. It seems like Mike put the kibosh on that. And listen, like we got a rule for a reason, right? Like always get a lawyer. But this is the beginning of a decades long battle between the Ramses and I think police question mark. But like who is behind what in this case, as you'll come to see is pretty convoluted. So the Ramseys don't go talk to police on the 28th. They do have a closed memorial service that day for JonBenet in Colorado before.

[Unknown Speaker]

They leave town, which I knew happened. But it was that soon.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes. So John Ramsey says that they wanted to go back to Atlanta where they're supposed port system was. I mean they had only just moved to Boulder like a handful of years before this, like in 91 because his company had gotten bought out by Lockheed. So he says that he still thought of Atlanta as home. Like they always had planned to move back and like that's where they were planning to bury Jean Benet in the same cemetery as her older half sister who had died in a car accident a few years before. And interestingly about his company like that bought Access Graphics. Lucky John raves about them like, you'll see that in my sit down with him. But one of the things that they did after JonBenet's death was they had offered Jon a company plane to take him to Atlanta. So the company plane takes him to Atlanta, 29th, 30th goes by. 31st is JonBenet's funeral. And then the first all media hell breaks loose. In a move that John Ramsey himself will later call a mistake, he and Patsy decide to go on cnn. I feel like this is one of the most like famous parts of this case that you can like. I can see that. Yeah. Now they haven't had a formal sit down with police, but they have this sit down with the media and it rubs people all of the wrong ways.

[Unknown Speaker]

Ms. Ramsey, you found the note.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was a handwritten note, three pages.

[Unknown Speaker]

I didn't, I couldn't read the whole thing. I, I just gotten up. We were on our, it was the day after Christmas and we were going to go visiting and it was quite early in the morning and I had gotten dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee. And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas and I always come down that staircase and I'm usually the first one down. And the note was lying across the three pages across the run of one of the stair treads. And it was kind of dimly lit because it was very early in the morning. And I started to read it and it was addressed to john. It said Mr. Ramsey. And it said, we have your daughter. And I, you know, it just was. It just wasn't registering. And I, I may have gotten through another sentence like, we have your daughter. And I don't know if I got any further than that. And I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door and she was not in her bed. And I screamed for John.

And John, you've subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense?

Well, no, I mean, I read it very fast. I was out of my mind. And it said, don't call the police, you know, that type of thing. And I told Patsy, call the police immediately.

[Ashley Flowers]

And.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think I ran through the house a bit.

We went to check our son, checked our son's room.

Sometimes he sleeps in here. And we just were.

We were just frantic.

The police said a couple of days ago to assure other residents of Boulder.

[Ashley Flowers]

There is no killer on the loose here.

[Unknown Speaker]

You can be assure everything is under control. Do you believe it's someone outside your home?

There is a killer on the loose. I don't know who it is. I don't know if it's a he or a she, but if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep your babies close to you.

[Ashley Flowers]

There's someone out there.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, America has just been hurt so deeply with the, the tragic things that have happened. The young woman who drove her children into the water and we don't know what happened with the O.J. simpson. And I mean, America is suffering because they have lost faith in the American family. We are a Christian, God fearing family. We love our children. We would do anything for our children.

[Ashley Flowers]

So this interview that they did was actually a lot quicker than I had in my head. I don't know why. Like, growing up, I thought this was like this like long special where they gave statements.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sit down.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, statements about everything. But I feel like the part that you heard about the note was like, honestly the most detail that we got. I think in total it ends up being like a. I think I heard the CNN anchor say like 40 minute thing. But there were other like little things here and there. But mostly overall, it was the Ramsey's opportunity to let the public know that they were unhappy with the direction of the investigation. They didn't think that the Boulder Police Department had the right resources allocated to the case. And so they were gonna be putting together their own investigative team and offer a reward.

[Unknown Speaker]

So did you ask John why they agreed to do something like this?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, just to be clear, they didn't agree to like some incoming ask, like, John had a friend who knew the president of cnn. So they really made this interview happen. Oh, but John said something. This was one of the more interesting parts of our interview about why they decided to do this in the first place. And listen, I have heard this guy talk a lot. I've read his books. I've seen the interviews that he's done. I mean, his life story is drilled into him like word for word. He has had a lifetime of people probably asking him the same questions over and over. And he gives the same answers over and over because he's consistent. And in the past, what I've seen or read is that he talks about how his friends thought that they should go on, they should tell their version of events, that they should defend themselves. And what he told me still was that his friends were the ones really pushing the interview. But the reason behind why was different.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, so in our sit down, John Ramsey told me that his friends wanted him to go on CNN to protect Boulder.

[Unknown Speaker]

What does that even mean?

[Ashley Flowers]

Great question. I asked it and I didn't really get a totally clear answer. And this is truly where when you're done with the episode, I'm telling people you have to go watch the interview with him. It's on YouTube. He just kept saying that Boulder was this weird place, like this bubble where reality was like outside of it. Like, I know I'm not making sense, but like it didn't really make sense to me. And I don't know, in talking to them and like seeing stuff that they've done in the past, it doesn't seem like they liked the place all that much. I mean, it was a far cry from the conservative south where they'd come from. Either way, I'm not sure that they nailed the assignment. Remember, like Patsy Foley still did like a hide your kids, hide your wife, we've got a killer, like roaming the streets kind of thing. So it wasn't all pro Boulder.

[Unknown Speaker]

I've always wondered a little if she went like off book in that interview. Like you can kind of tell she's still pretty medicated. Like, yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And listen, like people have all of the thoughts on both parents, but lots of thoughts on Patsy at the time. And here's what I'll say. I don't think that that interview is a fair one to read into too much like behavior on camera wise, just because, I mean, you're talking a week out from when their daughter was murdered. I don't know that I could even sit up straight like at that point, like if it were me. And so it might be one of the first times that Patsy was upright. I mean she even said that like in those first few days she was so out of it that John and like her friends were literally having to feed her and to bathe her, help her go to the bathroom. So demeanor, like in my mind, like, throw this out the window. But I do think we need to talk about the substance of that interview. The words matter. Especially when we're gonna get into some of the statements, like the early statements from them about what happened on December 25 and December 26. Now, like I said, there wasn't a lot of substance in what we got, but there were the first signs of cracks, at least compared to what's in Officer French's report from the 26th and Detective Arndt's report, which technically she actually hadn't written up yet. When they go on cnn, she actually writes up hers a week from that on January 8th. So there's also, you know, how much is lost in her memory in that time between writing it.

[Unknown Speaker]

So were there a lot of inconsistencies in the little that we did get?

[Ashley Flowers]

No. So the only one that really pops out is when Patsy was talking about seeing the letter and then going to JonBenet's room to see if she was there. In some of the early reports, there is a note that mentions her actually going and checking JonBenet's room first and then going down the stairs and finding the note. But there are no follow up questions like after this, like, interview is over. And despite what they seemingly told cnn, like, told the reporter because at the time they're like, yeah, we are going to go back to Boulder, we're going work with police, like, we're going to do anything we can to cooperate and help find our daughter's killer. But that doesn't actually happen.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, but why not?

[Ashley Flowers]

I know. So it's what eats people alive. No one can understand why they wouldn't just sit down with police and go through the facts that day in the days leading up to it as well, like the intimate details of their lives. Like, there is so much that police just don't know at this point. And again, I will acknowledge I do see that that first day or two, you know, everyone's still trying to figure out everything there. But there's, they did talk, but there is this huge gap in what police know about their lives from that. And I get it, like, I want to shake them too and be like, just like, help them help you. Like even I don't know if you remember Polly Klaas, her story, but her dad eventually speaks out about this and he's like, I don't get it. Like, I did everything I could when my daughter was murdered. I begged them to give me a polygraph so that they could move beyond me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

But John will just tell you like till he is blue in the face that they were following the advice of the lawyers that they had. And why have these lawyers if you're not going to listen to them? And by the way, Their lawyer game has been upped by this point. They're no longer just relying on Mike Bynum to give them some advice. According to John, Mike connects him and Patsy to a law firm that could handle more like, criminal matters. So the law firm is called Hadden, Morgan and Foreman, who, like, by the way, if you Google them, like, and you go to news, like, what pops up is, like, interesting clientele. I was like, oh, okay. But that's neither here nor there. The point is that these new lawyers are like the big guns. They have big connections not just to the DA's office, but to Colorado politics as a whole. And so these laws, Cassie and John each have their own, by the way. Like, they're each being looked at as a suspect. So they have to have their own lawyers. Their lawyers are basically like, listen, we know how this works. The police are narrowly focused in on you. They are gonna wanna just, like, get you in a room and drill you until you break down, which is why.

[Unknown Speaker]

You have a lawyer in the room with you. But you need to go into the room. You need to be there.

[Ashley Flowers]

You need to be in the room. And listen, like, I. The lawyers always planned to be in the room, but they were particular about the conditions of getting in that room. They wouldn't come to terms with police on what that was like. When I talked to John, he was like, well, they wanted us to come at, like, late at night and, like, where their lawyers were like, they want you to be tired. They want you to be like, they know we're not sleeping.

[Unknown Speaker]

And he's like, he's setting you up for failure.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And he's like, we offered to have them come in our home. And they were like, no, only at police station. So they go back and forth trying to, like, come to terms with the conditions of this interview. And that doesn't happen. Like, they don't agree to something until April of 1997. That is when police get the first real opportunity to sit down and drill in. And then after that, it would be another year before their next sit down. That one didn't happen until June of 1998. And then there is just one more in the year 2000. Now. Now, in all of that time, it was a media frenzy. I mean, in an era of tabloids, JonBenet reigned supreme. Next in line only to a literal almost queen, Princess Diana. Like, I don't know if you remember, we talked about this being our origin story, but it was all over all the time. You could not go to the grocery store.

[Unknown Speaker]

It was everywhere.

[Ashley Flowers]

And not see her face. And it was all over the news, even in a time when, like, we weren't paying attention to news.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I think it, like, it garnered so much attention because it was this, like, perfect storm of Christmas time. A beautiful child, a rich family. And then, I mean, put the pageant stuff on top of all of that. Like, there were not only a plethora of images of JonBenet, like, being sold to tabloids and newspapers and magazines because these photographers had so much footage of her, but the pictures they had of her were of this little girl made to look like a young woman. And people had a field day with it. And even though there was plenty of talk of people asking the questions of whether or not the pageantry put JonBenet in the path of someone dangerous, which. Spoiler alert. Like, yeah, the conversations always kind of came back to the parents. Yeah, but they made her do those pageants, which the family says is an inaccurate statement. They're like, no, this is something she liked to do with her mom. Like, Patsy was a former Miss West Virginia, but all of the tabloids were all about the family. So, like, the family was right in saying that they were out to get them.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, but, like, which came first? Right. Like, it's a very chicken and egg situation. If they talked to the police and the police had cleared them, would there be the tabloid that put them in the center of things, or are they in the center of things?

[Ashley Flowers]

It definitely fed it. Like, again, I think that it started so early. Like, surprisingly early. But, yeah, I think it definitely fed the monster to be like, they're not talking to police. Like, oh, they left Colorado and now they're in Georgia. And things don't get better. Like, the more time that passed, the more contentious things got. Not just between the Ramses and the police, but also between the police and the DA's office. Like, things are being leaked, seemingly from every which way. I mean, it was so bad that at one point, her autopsy photos were leaked to the Globe, and those actually planned to print those autopsy photos. And it's like the police, they had become convinced that the Ramses were involved. And so it actually came out in a deposition at one point, like, years down the line that the police were giving information to reporters to try and put external pressure on the Ramses, hoping that they would crack. Like, they couldn't do the thing they wanted to do inside of the interrogation room, so they were gonna have the media do it.

[Unknown Speaker]

So at this point, it sounds like. Like, police are relying on other details almost like, not just. We don't like how the family is acting to support all these suspicions that they have.

[Ashley Flowers]

Correct. Because, like, during this time, like, things are getting leaked. Like I said, you have the police department. Things are coming out of the DA's office, too. The Ramsey's had their own team. So, like, who is leaking what? Like, it is a messy, messy game. But let me actually give you a little bit of the lay of the land of some of the stuff that we were learning in the time after JonBenet's death. I'm gonna go into her autopsy. I think that's a big part of it. But before I do that, I think we just need to talk about some of the physical evidence at the house, some of the observations that were made, because I think all of that, like, was informing police's opinion on the situation very early on.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

So one of the big ones, one of the ones that the Ramseys say kind of like defines the case, is that police just didn't like how they were acting. Linda Arndt. I'll talk about her probably a lot in this episode. She was the first detective there that day. And she does this, like, one really infamous interview with Good Morning America in 1999. And the interviewer asks her, like, how was John that morning? And she just keeps saying cordial. And she's like, okay, but cordial, what does that mean? It's the only word she would say. Cordial. Cordial. So she didn't like how he was acting. Now John tells me he's like. And told everyone. Like, I was trying to keep my wits about me. Like, I don't. Like, Patsy was deeply upset. Like, she was just in the room with her friend. She's laying down, she's crying. He's like, I had to, like, go into action mode.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, autopilot, almost exactly.

[Ashley Flowers]

Which I truly. I understand a little bit. I look at me and my husband, and we are very different that way. Where I think Eric would be the one, like, in the chair crying, laying on the floor. And I'm going to be like, okay, I've got to get the money. I'm going to get this. Like, I'm lining everything up to be like, what can I do to fix this situation?

[Unknown Speaker]

Because I can't just sit here.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. John's a CEO of a company. Like, I see him. I see him going in that way. But the other thing that Linda talks about is that they're, like, in separate rooms the whole time. So she just found that strange. And people have, like, weighed in over the years, like, put their own spin on it. I don't. Like, I don't know that you could say one way or another if that means anything. Like, I don't think people could say conclusively, but she just felt it was strange that, like, Patsy's in one room crying again. John is, like, over here in action.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mode, but in this giant house.

[Ashley Flowers]

In a giant house. But she. I think she expected them to be units. Yeah, a unit. And comforting each other. But that's not what she saw that day, which I think played into the beliefs that first day. The other thing that gets talked about a ton and that she really. And I think Officer French and a lot of people there that day honed in on was the fact that. So John had just been, like, freshly showered when he had just gone out of the shower when past he made that 911 call. And so he's fresh in the morning. She has, like, fresh makeup, but she's also wearing the same clothes that she'd worn the night before. So they say, depends on who you talk to. Right. Like, they thought it was really weird that at 5, something in the morning, she's got full hair and makeup, but wearing the same clothes. I don't know what to make of that. I'll tell you, like, completely honestly, I went to dinner with John Ramsey and then interviewed him the next day. And I wore the exact same outfit. Like, and not even intentionally. I didn't realize it until later, but, like, throwing on the same thing to me is not a big deal. Everyone says, oh, well, you know, Patsy was so into her image. And, like, there's no way she would have done that. They were about to get on a flight to go to Michigan, so maybe she was just like.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it was like the holidays. Like, I would wear the same outfit, same red sweater. Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

The makeup. She says, and she is from the South. She was born in West Virginia. They spent so much time in Atlanta. She's like, my mother drilled it in me. You do not leave the house, like, unless you're fully done up, Which I like. I've met people like that, too. But people will read in and be like, she just never had the chance to go to bed that night. And so it was odd to the people there that first morning. Now, I also told you that first responders, they didn't notice any sign of forced entry in their initial reports, but there was a broken window in the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Basement, which I don't get how that's just missed.

[Ashley Flowers]

Not everyone did miss it. I'm gonna have to come back to that. Like, when we get into people's, like, stories and statements. For now, what we need to know is, like, the window was broken, but it wasn't broken recently. So there wasn't glass all over. And John had apparently broken it over the summer. Like, he's like, no, that's why there's no glass. Like, I broke it when I got locked out of the house. And they thought they had asked their housekeeper's husband or something like that to fix it. But there must have been some kind of confusion or miscommunication. The window didn't get fixed. So I think they view it as, like, oh, this is a. You know, I mean, it's the perfect thing to, like, if someone were scoping out their house to say, like, here's a broken window. You can easily get access to the home, but it wasn't something that was done necessarily by an intruder. And the other thing that they point to is there's also this hard shell suitcase that was supposed to have been right under the window that they're thinking someone used to maybe get in or get out. And then there's the note. The Ramseys to this point, like, more than the broken window. They point to the note as proof that JonBenet was kidnapped. They're basically like, listen, if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, like, it's probably a freaking duck. Like, we have a ransom note, we probably have a kidnapping. But there were things about this note that even really early on, police were finding odd. The first thing is, like, they end up concluding that the note was written on Patsy's notepad with a pen from inside the house. Like, I guess John and Patsy each had, like, their own notebooks for phone messages or whatever, but they determined that it was from Patsy's one that the paper came from. And what's interesting is that the pad of paper and the pen were put back. Like they were put away. It wasn't just, like, left out, but they were, like, put back in different places. Now, when they made this connection about it being Patsy's notepad, they also found out that there was a first attempt at writing the note before the writer started over. So there is a page that starts out Mr. And Mrs. And then there's like a line like, it's gonna start Ramsay. But that's it. Like, they call this. Everyone calls it the practice note, but it just says Mr. And Mrs. R. And then we know the final note is just addressed to Mr. Ramsey. Right now it's already a little sus that this thing was written with items inside the house. Because I think what everyone starts thinking is like, this person didn't come prepared. Like, usually in kidnapping cases, you see them if they're gonna leave a note, that's like something they come with.

[Unknown Speaker]

If you're gonna hold someone for a ransom, you should probably have the ransom note written.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is the thought.

[Ashley Flowers]

And if not, when they look at like the sheer amount of words here, two and a half pages. I think I heard someone say it would take someone like 20 minutes to write this thing. They're like, when would they have done that? Now the Ramses think that this person, this intruder, snuck into their house while they were at a Christmas dinner earlier that night, was like, sitting there laying in wait for everyone to like, go to bed. And they said, like, oh, we think it was written then, which gives the person like hours, ample amount of time. But it also doesn't fit with a lot of what we'll come to know. If the goal was to just get her out of the house, we know that she's found with everything done to her inside the house. So if you pre wrote that note, something about that doesn't add up. But then if you wrote the note.

[Unknown Speaker]

Afterwards, that also doesn't make sense. Because why would you hope that there's a notebook and a pen readily available for you to. And 20 minutes?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, and also, like, she's dead, right? Like, so what was the point of the ransom note for an intruder if they were going to leave her deceased in the basement and beyond? Like, when the note was written, the contents of the note were super weird to me. So for starters, it's like really focused on John. I don't know if, like, as you're reading it, I know you've probably seen that note like a zillion times. But like, everything is about John and his.

[Unknown Speaker]

And even his role in the business.

[Ashley Flowers]

In the business. And it's like, John, make sure you get enough, like, sleep. John, make sure you do this. John, your daughter, like, which. And if it is about Jon and the business, then like the, you know, the Ramses have said there's like this sexual component to JonBenet's death that we're gonna get into. But like, if it's about that, then that part doesn't line up. And then like I said, there's a lot of. In the note it mentions, like, make sure you get some sleep. Make sure you. There's like this weird sense of like.

[Unknown Speaker]

If you want her earlier, just get the money earlier, and we'll figure this out.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's really. Yeah. It's really strange the way that it focuses on them. And, like, again, I don't know if care's the right word, but it's like, this isn't. It doesn't make sense. Like, nothing about the notes makes sense. And then there are all of these quotes that when people have, like, gone through and really, like, broken it down. All of these quotes from movies where kidnappings happened. And so is this, like. Is this a movie buff?

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure.

[Ashley Flowers]

I mean, surely someone's not, like, going through and watching a bunch of movies as they're writing this. If they wrote this in the house in 20 minutes, 20 minutes or a couple hours, whatever it is. And finally, no one knows what the SBTC is. Like, there are theories out the wazoo about what it could be. I've heard Saved by the Cross. I've heard rumors that where John Ramsey was stationed in the Navy in the Philippines, that there was, like, some.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's like some military faction acronym.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Which then they're like, oh, is that foreign faction? But, like, that's never been proven, so people can have. And honestly, like, again, the stuff people can come up with, like, is pretty wild. Lots of wild theories, but in almost 30 years, there is no conclusive proof about what that is connected to. And the other thing we don't know is this amount of money.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's so specific.

[Ashley Flowers]

$118,000.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not 100, not 150.

[Ashley Flowers]

And, like.

[Unknown Speaker]

And split, too, in, like, different bills.

[Ashley Flowers]

And John was like. I mean, they were kind of loaded.

[Unknown Speaker]

They could have asked for way more.

[Ashley Flowers]

You could ask for. And, like, I don't know, like, 118 is so weird. Why not half a million? A million dollars? $10 million, like, or even lower at.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, a round number of, like, $100,000. Like the 18.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's the 18. It's so weird.

[Unknown Speaker]

Throws me off so badly.

[Ashley Flowers]

And it's kind of almost like the SBTC thing, where people are like, oh, it's a Bible verse. Like, it's a proverb or something. 118. Like, you can anything with, like, the number, honestly, 18 in it or 118. People will, like, drill in on the thing that I think most people believe, or at least they think is, like, the most relevant information is that it comes out. And John and Patsy in the early days are like, there's no significance to that number for us. Like, we don't know what it is. Police end up finding out that John Ramsey's bonus that Year for his company was $118,000.

[Unknown Speaker]

That exact amount, yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And, like, some change, like, don't get.

[Unknown Speaker]

Me wrong, but, like, the lump sum.

[Ashley Flowers]

The big number, the weird $118,000. And he says, yeah, maybe that's it. The interesting thing is. So I think what gets mixed up a lot, like, for people is that they're like, oh, that was his Christmas bonus. He got that in December. Like, everyone must have known. It actually was issued to him, he says, in, like, January or February of 1996. So it had been the whole year. But he said that that bonus was, like, a line item on all of his pay stubs. So if somebody were, like, going through documents in their house, like, they would have seen that. And I asked him, I was like, was there evidence of somebody who's, like, gone through documents in your house? And he said. He says, no, but that doesn't mean that that didn't happen. And it's kind of like his best theory of if it's this number, this might be how someone would have found.

[Unknown Speaker]

That exact specific number.

[Ashley Flowers]

The police would say, well, no one knew to find it. Someone in your home, probably. Yeah, yeah. So they have all this weird stuff in the note, and then they start getting handwriting samples from people in the family, trying to find out who wrote this. They got a few, actually from Patsy, and everyone is ruled out except Patsy. Now, to be very clear, like, they don't say it was her handwriting. They just say that she can't be excluded or they can't rule her out, which is, like, a very important distinction.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, and the language itself felt like her, if I'm remembering, like, her interviews. Right. Like, it's kind of flowery over the top. Like, they linked words like hence and attache.

[Ashley Flowers]

Attache.

[Unknown Speaker]

When I said that, I was like, ooh, that's a word. Like, that's stuff that she would say, though, right?

[Ashley Flowers]

Not words like she invented. Like, lots of people know those words. But there is this, like, strange juxtaposition in the writing where some of the words are actually, like, spelled wrong. And then you have words like attache with, like, the little, like, mark accent over it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And they're so. They're like, oh, someone must have, like, spelled other words wrong intentionally. Which kind of fed into this idea of, oh, this ransom note isn't real. Like, it was some kind of staging of some sort. But, like, fun fact, like, I also spelled the word attache wrong when I was writing, like, this story out.

[Unknown Speaker]

So, like, I would be floored if you hadn't knowing you I was just.

[Ashley Flowers]

Gonna say, like, so. But I also, like, I know words, words that are outside of my normal vocabulary. And then, like, I can't. There are some basic words, like I can't spell. Right. Like, it's just I would also. And that's not me, like, fooling anyone.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's just I would also say that, like, you would be able to tell the difference if you and I wrote, like, the same things because we would use completely different words.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. So to get back to it, though, there are a lot of strange things about the note, but there are other random things around the house that if you really want to go down this rabbit hole, you can spend days. So, like, I mean, there's a baseball bat outside. There's a rope in another bedroom of the house. But the important thing is, like, none of it is forensically linked to the crime. At least not there hasn't been to the public. So for the sake of keeping people with me, like, we still got a lot, a lot of room here. Like a lot of episode to go. I want to move to the yaw talk. So when JonBenet is found, she had what is described as a garrote like device tied around her neck using white, like rope or cord or some kind of, like, substance, and then the broken off handle of a paintbrush. Now, garrote, Garrote, whatever. Like, that is the word that gets used all the time.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's the only reason I know what that is.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's like, synonymous with this case. But it actually isn't a garrote that got. I don't know if it matters, but it feels like with this case, the devil is in the details. So for accuracy's sake, what they're actually like, at least when I was like, looking it up, a garrote is like some kind of like string, cord, rope, chain, whatever, and then like two, like, handles on the end. What was actually used in JonBenet's case was a white cord that was tied around her neck. It was fastened in the back, and it was fastened to that broken end of the paintbrush. And I think the thinking was that, or if people are still trying to call it a garrote, is that maybe you could, like twist the paintbrush and then that would tighten it. But investigators said that it was tied more like a noose than it was any kind of garrote. And particularly they've made note that the knots weren't especially common. Now, the brush itself is from inside the house. Like a lot of the other stuff we're finding. And we find out that it came from Patsy's art supply. So she had been taking painting classes at the time at the local university. So she had this little like carrier bucket thing full of stuff like that. Now, what wasn't obvious in the Ramsey house that morning that she was found, but what would become clear when her autopsy was done, is that along with having this cord around her neck, she also had suffered severe blunt force trauma to her head. Like there quite literally, when you see the pictures, there's like a chunk of her skull that is like caved in and then this like 8 inch crack across her skull as well.

[Unknown Speaker]

So I was never really clear like, which one of these things was her cause of death though.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, so the autopsy report says it was just a combination.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do they know which one was first?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know. So I think first you need to know that the rope around her neck, like, if you see the pictures that got released, it's like embedded in there. Like, I mean, looks like somebody truly tied it so tight, but it actually wasn't tied really tight. So, like just like the bindings I had mentioned that were loose on her wrist, the cord I think initially around her neck probably was as well. Because in the autopsy report there is a note that even though she's got the external wounds, there is no internal damage to her neck, which you would see if there was like severe strangulation, if that makes sense. So it's possible that maybe her body like got swollen after death or like as she was dying. Like, and it made it look so.

[Unknown Speaker]

Much tight, but she was definitely alive when it happened.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes, so, yes, so she definitely did get choked in some way because we have external signs of her being choked. Like, so we've got abrasions, we've got petechial hemorrhage on her neck and her.

[Unknown Speaker]

Eyes and her face, which all that makes sense, but I still don't. I'm not seeing what came first.

[Ashley Flowers]

Same, like, really the only two options are either she was being lightly choked, but again, the choking was not the thing that was gonna kill her because we don't see those internal injuries. She was being light and she either still has the cord around her neck or it's taken off and then she's hit and then it's put back on, or it's like I said, it's just left on, or she's hit in the head and then it is put on. And if she's swelling that caused the choking, those really are only two options. Either way, the Hit in the head was so severe that even the light choking, whether it was someone doing it or just the cord being on it, contributed to her death in conjunction with the head wound. So there seems to be a consensus from a number of people that the asphyxiation happened, like, 45 minutes after the hit. And it really is like, authorities who believe this on the Ramsey camp, they have this investigator, Lou Smith, who really reaches a different conclusion. He thinks she was hit in the head after she was choked and that the choking was done as part of a. A sexual act. Now, I mentioned this briefly, but when jon was bringing JonBenet upstairs, like, when he first found her in the basement, there was some of that, like, white cord. Same stuff that's around her neck is, like, around her wrist or, like, her hand. Just one of them. And he says that they like. Or they were, like, bound together, but, like, I think it's only left on one, and it's pretty loose. Like, the knots themselves were loose. Like, a lot of people who've looked at this, like, it wouldn't have actually.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, kept her hands together.

[Ashley Flowers]

Right. So, again, the people who look at this like a staging, they'll say, this is more proof that it wasn't to actually restrain her. This was something done after the fact. But could the knots have gotten loose another way we look at a scene that we know is so severely contaminated? She wasn't left in the place that she was found. I don't know. Now, she also had a piece of tape over her mouth. And when John found her, he had actually ripped that off. And he leaves it in the basement. He brings her upstairs, and it's left in the basement along with the white blanket that was covering her. And then one of the things that I never knew in this case was that along with the white blanket, there was a Barbie nightgown. And I don't know what it means. By all accounts, it's not what she was wearing that evening. It doesn't seem like it was soiled. Nobody knows if it's, like, clean, dirty. Was it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did they go up to her room to get, like, where was it?

[Ashley Flowers]

Was it just, like, shuffled in, maybe with the blanket that they brought down? Like, nobody knows. It's just kind of this weird piece that I can't quite make sense of, but there's a Barbie nightgown down there, too. So the nightgown, I already said wasn't what she was wearing. What she was wearing was a white shirt with a silver star, and she had worn that shirt to a Christmas dinner that they went to the night before. That's where they were before they all came home and went to bed. She was also wearing white long john pants. And under those she was wearing a pair of underwear. And this is like such a weird part of the case. The underwear that she was wearing was a size 12, which for like my non kid people usually like. The general rule is like you can usually go size by age. Like obviously every kid's different, but pretty close.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like May's 6, she wears an 8.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And JonBenet was like a pretty average like height weight for her age. So like, like a 6 year old to be in 12 underwear. They were, they even said like when they, when they were like taking off her clothes and doing her autopsy, like they were huge on her.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And the other interesting thing is that her long johns and her underwear were both stained with urine, mostly on the front of the garments, which indicates to me that she was probably laying face down when her bladder was empty. Because I think it's especially important when you think about the fact that that cord was tied around her neck, was tied in the back.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did they find urine anywhere else in the house? Like if she was laying down, and I've seen the pictures of the underwear and the pants, I mean they're saturated. If she's laying down empties her bladder that much to just like drench her clothes, it should be somewhere. There should be a little puddle somewhere.

[Ashley Flowers]

Theoretically, yes. But I can't say for sure based on the stuff that we have. I told you, I mean a lot of the stuff that we have is because stuff got leaked, not because it doesn't. Like there isn't other stuff that exists. I can tell you that the sheets that were on her bed were not stained. There is some conjecture that maybe there was a possible urine stain on the carpet outside of the wine cellar room that she's actually found in. But I can't source that to actual police documents. I don't know if that's true. And of course Boulder Police Department, the prosecutor's office, like they wouldn't talk to us for this episode. So all in all, I don't actually know, but it feels like we should be able to determine where in the house that happened. And the where that happened feels really important. Like if we can't find where, that means that someone cleaned it up. Right. Which adds like this whole other element to this already really confusing case. Now the other things that get discovered that are of interest are the following in her autopsy. So there was vaginal trauma, but not from penetration like there. It was more like an irritant or like the skin cells. And what they found is I believe there were traces of the actual, the broken paintbrush. What they determined is that that paintbrush had been inserted. Interestingly though, there's like that that they know happened like at the time of her death. But the autopsy also notes some wounds or some trauma that is more chronic. And chronic doesn't mean it's happening for a very, very, very long time over and over. Chronic means before like that. And so there's at least some evidence that seven to 10 days before her death something else happened, but you can't say what. And anyone who tries to say what, like we do not know. But there is some vaginal trauma to this young girl that happened seven to ten days before her death.

[Unknown Speaker]

So they're not sure if she was abused.

[Ashley Flowers]

No one can say that like definitively. Definitively. There have been a number of experts who came in like the, when Boulder police had this case, they brought in a number. I think it was like five or six experts, experts that said that based on what they saw from the autopsy report, like they would categorize that as abuse. What we also find out in all of this time, it's not necessarily the autopsy, but we find out that JonBenet had been having issues with soiling herself. So she was, I mean Patsy still had like pull ups in the house. She was still wetting the bed, even soiling the bed. And Patsy would say like, listen, like that's this happens. Kids have accidents. She said that her stepdaughter, one of John's from his previous marriage did the same thing till she was like 8. Apparently Burke had the same things. So Patsy was like, it's just kids. But people who do want to say that she was abused will point to this as like more evidence of that. But no, like there is no definitive proof that she was being sexually abused in the time leading up to it. Like there's. But clearly something happened like in the seven to ten days and this. But we don't know what that is. Like it is so much of this case we will never know what was happening in that house on that night or the days before or jonbene was doing so many things outside of the home too. I also want to make it clear that if there was abuse, which I think there's evidence of and it's something that I talked to John about actually in our interview, I was like, like the proof is like it feels like the proof is there, but that doesn't mean it has to be a family. That's like, Right. She came into contact with so many people. So I know I just, like, went on and on and on. But the short answer is no. There's no, like, proof she was abused, but a lot of experts who believe she had been, to go back to the evidence. So there are some fibers that are found as well. They're found on the sticky side of the tape that was on her mouth. Some that are found, like, in the ligature, like knots that we've got. You know, I don't know if it was her hands or her neck, but there's some found in the ligature and some that were on the white blanket as well. And they are consistent, the police say, with a jacket that Patsy was wearing the night of the 25th. Additionally, there is one mention of some black fibers that were found in her underwear that they say were consistent with a wool sweater of John's. But this is a super important caveat. A. This is only thrown out in Patsy's 2000 interview. And we know, like, the person interviewing her says this, we know that you can straight up lie in those.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

So I don't know if this actually is true because I, like, it's not anywhere else as fact. I don't know if, like, the fibers were actually in the underwear. I don't know if they were. If they actually got tied to John. I have no idea. And the family lawyer actually makes note later on a different one. He says that, like, just saying those things skews the picture because he's like a. When you talk about the coat fibers, the shirt fibers, he's like, how many other things did you try and test to match it? First of all? And you're not even talking about all of the other fibers that were found that aren't tied to anything.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. There weren't only these, like, like two or three fibers. It could be a lot in there. And also people do laundry.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And he's like, so to just say those couple of things really skews the record, as he says. So you've got a lot of the physical evidence, but, like, the thing I think everyone wants to talk about when we talk about this case, there is foreign DNA. Exactly. So we've got foreign DNA under her nails, her right and her left, in her underwear and on the cord around her neck. We know JonBenet was the main contributor in all of it in 1997. There was an indication of an unknown contributor, but the Testing was super basic.

[Unknown Speaker]

Back then in 97.

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was so basic that what I can tell from, like, what I've seen is that we're dealing with, like, an allele that is off out of, like, multiple markers. So they were, like, far from a real profile that we could do anything with back then. But one of the things that really frustrated the family and made them feel like this was targeted against them is that no one was sharing that. They were ruled out from that in those early days, which seems pretty significant. Like, everyone's looking for an excuse of, like, it almost feels like they were trying to, like, write it off. Like, how can it still be them and not be this? And instead of just being like, oh, like, was there someone else in the house? Like, all put your theory aside. Like, the question is, was there someone else in the house? And I think that's the question everyone should be asking. And then the final thing that we have, as far as evidence, at least that I'm gonna get into, is the pineapple.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was waiting for you to get to the pineapple.

[Ashley Flowers]

So the pineapple. There are remnants of pineapple found in her stomach. If you know, you know, if you don't, that's why you have makeup. But to understand why the pineapple becomes important, like, or why it's a big deal, we have to go backward a little bit. So now that you have the physical evidence, like, the stuff that we're working with, most of which was getting, again, I just want to remind you, getting leaked, like, little bit by little bit to the public over weeks and months, all during the time when the Ramseys are lawyered up. I want to go into the actual statements that we get. So the stuff that police say that they were told on December 26, the statements given to authorities by John and Patsy in the months after that fateful day and even in the years that follow. So there are two reports that have been leaked from first responders that I found. One is from Officer French. He's the first guy that shows up at the house that morning. And the other is from Detective Linda Arndt. Let's start with French, since he was the first one who was there that day. And so actually, I have. If you wouldn't mind, just, like, reading, I think it's.

[Unknown Speaker]

The report says, I spoke with Mr. And Ms. Ramsey while Burke continued to sleep. Ms. Ramsey told me that she had gone into JonBenet's room at about 5:45 hours to wake her in preparation for a short family trip the family was to take later. That day she found JonBenet's room empty and then discovered the note as she walked down the stairs. She immediately called police.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, so then just go to the. So there's like.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's not a section.

[Ashley Flowers]

I'm making it tight for everyone.

[Unknown Speaker]

They told me they had spent Christmas night with the redacted and that they arrived home at 2200 hours. Ms. Ramsey said that JonBenet's and Burke's bedrooms are separate and are located on the second floor of the three story house with the master bedroom on the top floor. JonBenet's bedroom has an access door to the second floor porch which was locked and undamaged.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, so if you wouldn't mind. Now I've got Linda ar.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, Linda says Officer French told me that when he arrived he met with Patsy Ramsey, JonBenet's mother. Patsy was very upset and distraught and it was difficult for Officer French to obtain information from her. Officer French also spoke with Jon Ramsay, JonBenet's father. Officer French learned that the Ramsey family had been at a friend's house on the late afternoon and evening of December 25th. JonBenet and her brother Burke went to bed shortly after the family returned home. Jon Ramsay had read to JonBenet after she'd gone to bed and before she went to sleep. JonBenet had last been seen wearing a red turtleneck and white long underwear. Patsy woke up this morning and discovered the suspected ransom note at the bottom of the spiral staircase. Patsy originally thought that the note may have been left by the housekeeper. Officer French has been told that the Ramsey family had been planning to leave early this morning for Michigan. The Ramsey family has a home in Upper Michigan. After Patsy discovered the note, she went to JonBenet's bedroom. Patsy discovered JonBenet was missing.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, so then go to the next part where she talks about actually being able to speak to Patsy.

[Unknown Speaker]

I did ask Patsy a few questions and was able to receive some information. The following is information I received from Patsy. Patsy has gotten up on the morning of December 26, 6, 1996 and had gone downstairs. From her bedroom to the kitchen. Patsy used the back I. E. West stairway. The back stairway consists of a spiral staircase leading from just outside JonBenet's bedroom to the northwest corner of the first floor of the house. At the bottom of the spiral staircase, Patsy discovered a three page handwritten note. The note had been written on legal pad sized paper. Patsy said she originally thought the note might have been left by her house. After Patsy looked at the note and read it she ran to JonBenet's bedroom. JonBenet was missing.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, so that keeps going after that. Just basically, like, repeating a lot of the stuff that we already know. Like, they had an alarm, but they didn't set the alarm. Like, kind of talks about their housekeeper a little bit, who. She had a key. Early on, when JonBenet was still just, like, a missing person, police were asking about anyone who, like, had access to the house. And then if you want to keep going. So Linda talks to John.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. John Ramsey told me that he and his family had been at a dinner party held at the redacted home on the afternoon and evening of December 25, 1996. Jon, Patsy Burke, and JonBenet had returned home at approximately 2200hours. Jon told me that Patsy and Burke immediately went to bed. Jon had read a book to JonBenet, tucked her into bed. Then Jon went to bed. John said he went to bed at approximately 2230 hours.

[Ashley Flowers]

For anyone whose mind doesn't work like mine, 10 and 1030. Yeah, I don't work in military diving. Like, every time, I'd be like, backwards from 24. Anyway. So it keeps going. I mean, again, for anyone who's, like, as deeply obsessed as I am, like, I'll have all of this info in the show notes, so you can go, like, read the full thing for yourself. But for now, you have what you need to know. So that's what police have from the day of. About, like. Like, them getting home, going to bed, finding the note. There's a bunch more that they talk about. Like, I don't want to give you the impression that the Ramseys only said, like, three words to them. Like, they answered all the questions that they had day of. But police were expressly told to treat them like victims in the early days, not like suspects. Now, you know, after this, Mike Bynum steps in, tells John, like, listen, I want to help you out. I want to put someone, like, in place because, like, you really need representation in a criminal matter like this. And, you know, he's like, jesus, Mike Bynum, Jesus, take the wheel. Like, go ahead. Now we know that they don't sit down for a formal interview. They leave for Atlanta, and then they did that disaster of an interview on cnn, which, if John's insider source was wrong about police, like, initially looking at them like, they definitely were now. Right? Because some of the stuff in that interview conflicted with the little information that police already knew.

[Unknown Speaker]

And again, why even talk to CNN in the first place?

[Ashley Flowers]

To protect Boulder, right? Hashtag ProtectBoulder and which is like, when I sat down with John, as soon as he told me that, I was like, but that's weird, right? And he's like, yeah, no, it's definitely weird. But to protect Boulder, I don't know. So anyways, so you heard some of the clips. Like, they don't go into a ton of detail, but they do say a couple of things that stick out. And I thought that maybe we could just, like, read it a little bit. Mrs. Ramsey, you found the note. Was it a handwritten note? Three pages.

[Unknown Speaker]

I didn't. I couldn't read the whole thing. I had just gotten up. We were on our. It was the day after Christmas and we were going to go visiting. And it was quite early in the morning and I got dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee. And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas, and I always come down that staircase and I'm usually the first one down. And the note was lying across the three pages, across the run of one of the stair treads. And it was kind of dimly lit. It was just very early in the morning. And I started to read it and it was addressed to john. It said, Mr. Ramsey, and it said, we have your daughter. And I, you know, it just wasn't registering. And I may have gotten through another sentence. I can't. We have your daughter. And I don't know if I got any further than that. And I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door and she was not in her bed. And I screamed for John.

[Ashley Flowers]

John, you subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense? And then John says, well, no, I mean, I read it very fast. I was out of my mind. And it said, don't call the police. You know, that type of thing. And I told Patsy, call the police immediately. And I think I ran through the house a bit.

[Unknown Speaker]

We went to check our site, checked our son's room.

[Ashley Flowers]

Sometimes she sleeps in there. And we just were.

[Unknown Speaker]

We were just frantic.

[Ashley Flowers]

And then there's another section that I have here that I just want to read. I'll read again for John and you read for Patsy. To those of you who may want to ask, let me address it very directly. I did not kill my daughter. JonBenet. There have also been innuendos that she has been or was sexually molested. I can tell you that those were the most hurtful innuendos to us as a fan. They are totally false. JonBenet and I had a very close relationship I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm appalled that anyone would think that John or I would be involved in such a hideous, heinous crime. But let me assure that I did not kill JonBenet. I did not have anything to do with this. I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul. We feel like there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this, and that is the killer and someone that that person may have confided in.

[Ashley Flowers]

The big thing that people took away from this were a couple of things. One, Patsy says that she only read the first line of the letter, which is hard to understand because in the 911 call, she tells the operator how it is signed at the very end of the letter SBTC Victory. And in one of the first reports, she says that she was nervous. Like, remember when she was, like, standing at the window? She was nervous about, like, the car pulling up and being marked because the letter had said not to call the police. But it doesn't quite make sense how she would have known that if she only read the first, like, line or two.

[Unknown Speaker]

She also talks about screaming for John, and that's new. Didn't she say she called the police immediately? Or even in one version, didn't she say she saw JonBenet was not in her bed before she even. And saw the letter?

[Ashley Flowers]

Right. So that's what's in the report. But I will say that when Detective Arndt was kind of, if you remember, like, that you read it in one of them, she's kind of rehashing what French told her. It looks like in that version, she saw the note first. So some of the first reports might, like, something might be getting lost in translation. And we talked about, like, you know, there's time in between. There's the Ramses basically say, like, you know, there's so much in the initial reports that are just, like, straight up wrong. Like, everyone's misremembering or saw things differently or heard things differently or, like, misinterpreted stuff. So the other thing that is interesting about what we learned from that little bit from CNN is that there is no excuse for the pineapple that we know about everything they say is they, like, get home, go to bed. There is no, like, snack later. And granted, this is just like a tidbit that we're getting.

[Unknown Speaker]

But Patsy goes to bed, Burt goes to bed. Jon takes JonBenet out, reads to her, puts her to bed. All within, like, half an hour.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And we got, like, in some of that from the early reports, but it's. We don't understand when that would have happened because they don't say, like, oh, we got home and then this happened. And so, like, it's just kind of left as a little bit of a mystery. And so all of that to say that after they do the CNN thing, police have their antenna up and they really want to sit down with them. Once they come back, there's something weird that happens before they go back to Boulder because they will go back to Boulder. Like, even though they never set foot in that house again, they have to go back. So let me back up for a second. Remember how I told you that John's company gave them a plane to use to go back to Atlanta?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Like the company plane.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay. Yeah. So I don't know who exactly was on it. I don't have the manifest. But in a 1998 interview with authorities, Patsy says that there is some kind of of quote, unquote, like scuttlebutt, confusion or something around Fleet White. So apparently he was planning to get on the plane back, but he didn't. And what she said, I think I have, like, her exact. I think it's important to read what she said. So Patsy says, quote, I picked up on something, that Fleet was not acting right and they were going to keep him from going on the private plane back to Atlanta. Well, so I don't know what happened. Something happened.

[Unknown Speaker]

He's not on the plane with the.

[Ashley Flowers]

Family to Atlanta, but I know he makes his way out to Atlanta somehow. And then it sounds like he loses his ever loving mind. Something happens, but I. Like, I don't know what. Okay, so Fleet and his wife are staying with John's brother Jeff, it seems like. And according to Patsy, Fleet kind of flips out on Jeff. Like, he at one point, like, grabs his collar, gets upset about something. And then Jeff calls over to where John and Patsy are staying, and they're like. He's like, fleet's coming. Do you have a gun? And Patsy says that her and Burke and her mom, like, go to the basement. They're, like, trying to stay quiet. And John and Patsy's dad go handle this thing upstairs.

[Unknown Speaker]

Handle what, though? I don't. I'm not following what's happening.

[Ashley Flowers]

Me freaking either. So, like, everyone apparently comes out of this fine. I mean, like, physically, I know whatever altercation they had, like, is over with, but I don't know what happened. Whatever it was about begins to fracture the friendship between the whites and the Ramses.

[Unknown Speaker]

And has no one asked Jon about this?

[Ashley Flowers]

Of course they have. I asked John about this and it's you. I asked him and I'm telling you, this is what I'm saying to people. Go watch. Like in other places, I've heard John say that Fleet was upset that they did the CNN thing. But in an interview John eventually does in 1998 with Lou Smit, he says that Fleet was the one who pushed him to do the CNN thing. Like, the one who insisted on it.

[Unknown Speaker]

He's the one who told him to go and like, protect Boulder.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, no, he didn't say that in 1998. Like, that was something he said to me. But what he says is that Fleet told them to do it because of what the media was saying about them, that they needed to defend themselves. The Protect Boulder thing was, again, new to me. I don't know what it means, but defend themselves, protect Boulder. Either way, John kind of chalks up whatever this meltdown is to trauma. Like, Fleet obviously knew the family super well. They were at his house for Christmas dinner, for goodness sakes. He and his wife were called over by Patsy that morning when they knew Jon Bonnie was missing. It was traumatic for everyone. And John says that Fleet just isn't cool under pressure. And Fleet was one of the people who were like, down there when he found her.

[Unknown Speaker]

But that still doesn't answer my question. Like, what was he saying when he was flipping out?

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, okay, so police do ask her, right? Like, because she was there. But when she's asked by police about this, her only explanation, because she says she doesn't know, but she just says, I wasn't having that conversation. What I know. And like, this, this is a little hard for me to understand because I'm like, but you're part of this family. Something is happening. And it's hard for me to understand you're running to the basement, staying quiet, and that you asked no follow up questions after you came out of the basement.

[Unknown Speaker]

Just like, it's fine, move on.

[Ashley Flowers]

And on one hand I'm like, I don't buy it for a second because that's not how I would respond. On the other, I have seen more and more of, I don't know, the family dynamic, truly know the family dynamic. I think there's like a world that you and I grew up in where we saw a lot of like, I'm like, what are all the right words?

[Unknown Speaker]

Submissive isn't necessarily the right, like, exact word. But like, the dad husbands, they're handling it. Yeah, they're handling it and we don't need to worry about it. And so we don't ask any questions.

[Ashley Flowers]

So seemingly that could be. That could be what happened here. Because she's like, that is not a conversation I had.

[Unknown Speaker]

And what does John say about this, though? Like, the guy who was actually in the conversation, who had the conversation, the conversation with you.

[Ashley Flowers]

So loose Smith doesn't really ask him about the altercation or at least not what became part of, like the transcript. I tried to ask him, but John says he doesn't remember. He doesn't remember the exchange, what words were said. He also doesn't remember what Fleet flipped out about at the next altercation they have when they get back to Boulder.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm sorry, what is happening? And how did I not know any of this?

[Ashley Flowers]

I know. So, like, the media that we got served really has had its own take, right? Everyone just kind of talks about the things that fit their theory. The police were doing it, the DA was doing it, the Ramses do it. And I get it. Like, I mean, truly, how far in are we right now? Like, you literally can't talk about everything in this case unless you had a 400 part miniseries. Even this episode, I don't feel like it's really gonna cover it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Paging Delia. The crime junkies need you.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. The next season of Counterclock is drumming. Seriously though, I told you, I'm trying to go a layer deeper. I'm trying to show everyone that, like, to get to the bottom of who it is. So much more complicated than you think it is. There's like so much more than I think people think that they know. And truly, like, this is not the end of the story. But here is the main takeaway from today. I don't think anyone should have a strong opinion anyway until you consume all of it. And that is really hard to do. So like, again, as we're going through this, keep an open mind. Even our episode won't be the end all be all. But I'll get back to the facts. So they come back to Boulder. This is after the funeral. I don't know who travels with who. Priscilla and Fleet might even leave early. There's like this talk about how they didn't like how they were treated by everyone in Atlanta. Like they were expecting them to act like things were fine or everything was just too formal, like they were grieving. I don't know. But eventually everyone goes back to Boulder. Oh, sorry. Just wait. One more thing. So it's a weird Fleet thing. So before we Go back to Boulder. So when Patsy was telling authorities about this fleet altercation, she said something that set off like, truly like fire alarms in my head.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Ashley Flowers]

Nobody does selling better than Shopify. Home of the number one checkout on the planet. The shop pay feature even boosts conversions up to 50%. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout. Top brands like all birds use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com podcast free. All lowercase go to shopify.com podcast free to upgrade your selling today. Okay, so this is after Flea is kept from getting on the plane, but before he flips out. And Patsy's like hiding in the basement. So Patsy says that when they're in Atlanta, she sort of remembers Priscilla White, who's Fleet's wife, standing in her mom's living room saying something like, well, I know what's going on. If you would give me a few minutes of your time, I could let you in on some things. And Patsy turns to her and she says, priscilla, how can you know so much? I'm the mother of this child and I know nothing. So the person asking her or interviewing her when she's like talking about this, asked her what she was talking about. And Patsy's like, I don't have a clue. Like, you know, I really wish I would have taken her up on the offer to like, see what she knew, but.

[Unknown Speaker]

But what? Like, we still have time here. What did Priscilla know?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know, man.

[Unknown Speaker]

We don't know.

[Ashley Flowers]

Our team tried to reach out to the Whites, like, nothing back. Maybe they would say that. Like, they never even said that. Maybe they would say that whatever they said was taken out of context. Maybe they would say what John says and nobody remembers.

[Unknown Speaker]

Surely police talk to them at some point though, right?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, oh yeah. And from everything that's been reported, the Whites are super cooperative. They wanted to help in any way.

[Unknown Speaker]

That they could, you could help by telling us what you were saying to them when you were freaking out. That seems like a really good place to start.

[Ashley Flowers]

I know. And I like it had to have gotten asked. And maybe there is a very vanilla answer, but Boulder PD has been super tight lipped on the whites or honestly, pretty much any other people that they interviewed who weren't the Ramses. All the stuff that gets leaked are about the Ramses. Everything has a slant. Like, I mean seriously, no matter what side you take, things are slanted. And I feel like I'm dealing. Like I have a thousand puzzle pieces that I'm trying to put together and I feel like I'm still missing like 30,000. Like no matter how much this case, like we do not have all the information. But I do think that part of the reason that Patsy never went back and like got the answers from Priscilla that we would want or like I might go and get is because of this rift that forms between the families. Because according to Patsy, two more things happen and after that I don't think they ever speak again. So Priscilla says that thing, Fleet has his meltdown and. And they're all back in Boulder. And it's strange because Patsy says this next thing, she's like, oh, I wasn't really privy to it. It's kind of like the same thing. I wasn't really privy to this. But she is there when it happens. It's not like she's even removed. Like she was in the basement before. So her and John are meeting with their priest, Father W. And they're at the church and the three of them, she says, are like praying. And Fleet White bursts into the office, eyes wide. He gets on his knees, apparently has this business card and he's like literally like hanging over John. And he says, you know what this is, John? You know what this means, John, you know what I'm going to have to do with this, John? I am going to have to handle this my way. John. In fact, he says he keeps going on and on. And she's asking Fleet what it is that's in his hand and he hands her this business card and it for someone like a journalist or something. And there's a note on the back, she said she can't recall word for word, but she says it's something to the effect of quote. This is her quote in the interview. Mr. White, there's been some question as to whether it was you or John Ramsey who removed the tape from JonBenet's mouth, you know, and about the sequence of the basement discovery. Because we had been talking about this.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wait, they'd been talking about the basement discovery?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

And, like, who had and.

[Ashley Flowers]

Or when exactly. I don't know. They don't ask her. Like, she just kind of keeps going, and they don't circle back to this. And she says that Fleet basically says they're after him and his family now and that he's gonna have to handle this his way, like I said. So she says he's, like, manic at this point. And then the story just kind of fizzles, like, it's not clear how it deescalates. I know Father Raul, like, jumps in at some point, but I don't know how it ends. I don't know what will was said. I don't know what journalist. It was, like, who gave the card, who's asking these questions, or, like, if that even was the question.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, calling all Boulder journalists who gave a card to Fleet White, the crime junkies kind of want to know some things.

[Ashley Flowers]

I have a laundry list of people that I want to talk to. Like, any of them are welcome to hit me up anytime after this episode. So that was the one thing I told you. There are two things. So Patsy says that Fleet tries to get FaceTime with them one more time. So by this point, when the Ramses go back to Boulder, they kind of, like, hop around, but they end up, like, settling in and moving in with some of their friends, the Stines, who weirdly, like John, called acquaintances before all of this. But I don't know, man. Like, trauma bonding is real. So, like, they become obviously much closer. But Patsy says that Fleet goes to Glenn Stein's office at Colorado University and demands to see the ranch Ramses again. I don't know what's said. I don't know how it fizzles, de escalates, whatever, but, like, that's that. And I want to be clear. No one in the White family was ever considered suspects by any department. By all accounts, they've cooperated fully with the investigation, and they have even been staunch critics of how the case was handled. And have they've actually fought legal battles trying to get documents like. Like, release that they feel would further the case or would bring more light to the case. But for now, in our story and with the Ramses, the Whites are out. The Steins are in. They're the new besties. And it's interesting because it turns out what we learned when John and Patsy finally do sit down with police in April 1997, and then again in June of 98 and then more in 2000. Is that the Steins? They may have been some of the last people to actually see JonBenet before she died. Okay, so we're like eight hours into this episode. Do you want to finally get into more details about like the days leading up to the 26th? I'm going to. Yes, I know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Please.

[Ashley Flowers]

You need backstory.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I know. I'm loving all of this. It's so much.

[Ashley Flowers]

So I'm going to start with the 23rd. On December 23, the Ramseys hosted a Christmas party with like all of their friends. Even like family members of these friends who were like in town visiting. So get the Whites, we have the fernies, the Steins, the barn hills. Like all these kids, it's this big to do. They hire a Santa to make an appearance. The kids like are decorating gingerbread houses. Everything was merry and bright, at least we assume. But there is one weird thing that happens that night. On the 23rd. From the same house where 911 will be called in less than 72 hours.

[Unknown Speaker]

Someone dials 911 on the 23rd.

[Ashley Flowers]

On the 23rd, according to an LA Times article, the call was placed from the Ramses at 6:48pm but it was like a hang up call. Dispatchers tried to call back a few minutes later, nobody answered. So then police sent an officer to the house. What happened? Great question. I don't know. The officer who was dispatched never filed a report. Now I have heard that it was Fleet White who made that call. And there's like a number of like explanations around, like going around like, oh, he was trying to like dial. His mom is said to have been in the hospital at the time. He was trying to like call and get some medication for her and misdialed or something like that. I asked John specifically about it and he, he's again like does not remember. He says, so file that whole thing under like wtf? It's just like, it's weird. And it's one of those, we talk about this all the time. Like is it a coincidence that someone in that House calls 911 and then this happens? Or like are there no coincidences?

[Unknown Speaker]

Right?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know. So the 24th, nothing super notable happens. They go to church, they go out to dinner, they eat at this place called Pasta J's. John knows the owner. And then they go around and look at Christmas lights. Patsy thinks that maybe they might have gone to the Whites at some point. Like they were by there, they Might have like stopped by for a little bit, but no big deal. They all go home, go to bed and then everyone wakes up the 25th on Christmas Day. Like any kids on Christmas day they wake up first. They like go and get the parents. We want to open presents. JonBenet got a bike and this like life sized twin doll thing. And Burt got a Nintendo 64. Hello, 1996. Right. And they eat this big breakfast as a family that they make and then in the middle of the day everyone kind of does their own thing. So they were planning to leave early the next morning. This would have been like the 26th, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

So they're planning to leave the 26th to go to Charlevoix, Michigan to spend Christmas with John's older kids from another marriage. So they were planning on flying private. So John was like gonna go, he's gonna check on the plane, make sure everything's ready.

[Unknown Speaker]

Where's Charlevoix?

[Ashley Flowers]

So Michigan. So for my crime junkie people, do you remember the episode we did on North Fox Island?

[Unknown Speaker]

Of course. There was like, I remember the whole.

[Ashley Flowers]

Like trafficking ring, like Father Sheldon, whatever. So North Fox island is like Charlevoix like the main little town that's like the closest.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, like the like a bay.

[Ashley Flowers]

So now it's crime drinking context. That's where Charlevoix is. So it's not like on an island, it's on the mainland. But like it still is pretty hard to get to. So like hence the private plane. Right. So he's going to check the plane. Patsy's like finishing packing. She's wrapping some gifts for all the kids to open in Michigan. Some neighborhood kids come over at some point to play with JonBenet and Burke. And everything's going well. Like in the evening they get ready to go to the whites house for a Christmas dinner. Patsy wants her and JonBenet to match like black pants, red shirt. JonBenet is not into it. She wants to wear this like her shirt with a silver star. Six year old wins. Like if you have a six year old.

[Unknown Speaker]

That is so true.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And so they go to the Whites. They have like that's really like the only. Like we know they eat crab for dinner. So like it's interesting because not much has been leaked about this party. Like I haven't, there's no pictures. I don't know what happens. And like it's not a huge party from my understanding. It's like their family Christmas dinner that they had invited the Ramseys to like the year before and Then this year, so it just became kind of this little tradition, but it seems small and intimate.

[Unknown Speaker]

Ish.

[Ashley Flowers]

So the family goes to this dinner, then they leave, but they make some stops first. Patsy had gotten some gift baskets for other friends. So they go to the home of the Walkers. First they drop off the gift basket. Patsy just like runs in while the rest of the family stays in the car. Then they go to the Steins, what I was talking about. They drop off a gift there. Patsy goes in for like 10 to 15 minutes. She can't really remember if Burke went in with her, but like he might have because he has a friend or the Steins have a kid that's like his age. So like it would make sense if he did. John doesn't remember for sure who went in or not. Like Nobody remembers if JonBenetted. They don't think so, but whatever. Nothing notable. They had one more shot. They were supposed to make another gift basket, but it was getting late, they had to get up early in the morning, so they decided to just go home. Now it's just a couple minute drive to their house from the Steins. And when they get there, they say that JonBenet was already like zonked out. So as they're giving these like longer statements to police, this is again where we get like, no, she was never awake. And Jon read a story to her like she was asleep is what they say. John had to carry her up to her room, he put her in the bed, he took off her coat, took off her shoes. And then Patsy took over from there and she said she changed her out of her pants, like just put those long johns on. And the whole time she's like, JonBeni was so tired that she didn't even wake at all. Which, like, I've heard people like rumble about.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but I mean, this literally happened to me yesterday. May fell asleep in the car. Justin fully unbuckled her out of her seat, carried her in, laid her on her bed, and she slept for another hour.

[Ashley Flowers]

I fully like, yeah, changed Josie the other day and she was like zonked. So, like, especially if you come from like a party with friends and stuff, like kids can get tied.

[Unknown Speaker]

It snaps them. Yeah, but when does the big like size 12 underwear get put on her in all of this?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know. It is so weird. The underwear is like a big thing. I can't explain because it seems like the underwear was originally bought for another family member. Like a young girl in the family who would have been like a size 12 I've heard that maybe it was wrapped up as a gift to take with them as a present in the basement somewhere. But then, oh, maybe JonBenet decided she wanted them. There's never like a good clear answer on why she's wearing them, where they came from, where they came from, when.

[Unknown Speaker]

They got on her, any of that.

[Ashley Flowers]

So again, question mark, Question mark. So Patsy put JonBenet down. Jon is downstairs with Burt. Cause I guess he still wanted to play a little bit. He had this toy or something that he wanted to like put together. Dad was helping him with for a little while. Patsy finishes up some last minute things, then she goes to bed. She says she probably does her normal routine like brush her teeth, wash her face, whatever. And then when John went to bed, he said she's already there, that she, you know, I don't know that she's necessarily asleep. But he's like, we don't like have an interaction. She's down and I read for a little bit and then I fall asleep. And then we didn't wake up until the morning. So the big differences here now are that, that JonBenet is asleep when they get home. Whereas before we see in early reports that she was awake that Jon read to her. That's not the case anymore. And the Ramses say, and I've said this before, like everyone the day of misunderstood them. They wrote their reports wrong. That Jon didn't read DijonBenet that he read when he went to bed. And again people will be like, so everyone who wrote a report got it wrong. And they say, I don't know if information was flowing from one person to another.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. I was gonna say, but there's like a lot of like transcription and using reports as references that might have been happening.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes. They say they've always been consistent and that's not the case. They don't know where they got that from. Now the next morning, John is the first one up. But like before the alarm, he took a shower. Patsy wakes up. Then while he's like in the shower, she throws on the same clothes. We talked about this from the night before. She puts on her makeup, does her hair and then she goes downstairs where she finds the note. And then when she finds the note, she calls for John. Burke is asleep the whole time. And at some point John checked on him to make sure that he was there and okay. But they again leave him to sleep till they knew what to do. So you already know. They call police even though the note says in the statement, like do not call Police. John tells her to call. The scene isn't preserved in any way. And a little after one o'clock in the afternoon, Jon finds JonBenet in the wine cellar, where presumably she had been all along.

[Unknown Speaker]

What always baffles me is how had no one looked in this room, this wine cellar, like, the whole day. There were so many people in that house and they were everywhere except for JonBenet's room.

[Ashley Flowers]

But this is one of, like, the great mysteries and it's potentially another example of Murphy's Law. Or like, maybe not. Maybe this is something that just doesn't make sense. I don't know. So Officer French admits that when he went and looked around the house, like, he saw that door, but he saw that it was a latch. And he. I don't know if it's because the latch was high or, like, what about it? That he was like, oh, this wouldn't.

[Unknown Speaker]

Make sense for a little girl to go through or something.

[Ashley Flowers]

He just doesn't even open it and look. Which is just like bananas to me.

[Britt]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Now, I've heard Fleet White even went down to the basement at some point that day and looked around. He even. He opened the door. So more than friendship, he actually opened the door to the room that they end up finding JonBenet in, but doesn't see anything. The one thing I'll say is John says, or like his old interviews, it's, like, not clear. He can't remember if he, like, turned on the light or if the light was. Or if it was off, which I can understand. Right. Like, in that moment, like, that's not a detail I would remember. So is it possible that Fleet didn't turn it on? John could also just, like, naturally, like, instinctively know where the switch is because it's his house.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. And I think the other thing that sticks with me is I've heard it before that he had made, like, a beeline for this wine cellar. Like, is that true?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes and no. So he does, when she says, hey, go look top to bottom, he does go right for the basement. I think he makes. He goes to the broken window first, I think, or at least, like, draws Fleet's attention to the broken window, and then he goes to the wine cellar. But it is pretty immediate. And here's the other thing that I can't explain. So remember how a year ago, when we started this story, I told you that John. That John went to the basement, like, at some point that morning when he was looking around. So he says that he goes down. This is like, before or right about like 10am so he says he goes down and he noticed the broken window. And he said the window was like unlatched and open. And at first he says, like slightly. Later reports it's like wide open. But either way it's really strange because like, he says later what he did is he just like latched it back up. And then, I mean, I told you, he comes up to the basement and he doesn't say anything. He doesn't say the window's broken. He doesn't say the window was open, which, like, your daughter is missing at that point.

[Unknown Speaker]

If you're looking for like a point of entry or exit, it's notable.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's notable. And I think that people wonder why he wouldn't bring that up in that moment. But again, you do so many things that don't make sense in the middle of trauma. Now, this window does end up becoming a huge part of the narrative later when the Ramses have to go hire a team to look into the idea of an intruder. Because again, they say that the police are only focused on them. So there are a lot of strange things happening in this case that the media latches onto. This is how we got so many of those wild tabloid stories, which, by the way, like, I don't know if you noticed, I ordered a bunch of these, like on ebay, just because, like, I wanted to like, go back and get a sense of like, what, what. What was.

[Unknown Speaker]

What was the tone?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, what was everyone seeing? And it is kind of wild. Like, we. I definitely wasn't allowed to like, buy these.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh no. We could see the covers at the grocery store and that was it.

[Ashley Flowers]

I could. I think I showed you. Like, I was looking at like the fashion in here. Cause we were never allowed to look inside the tablets. I, like, I don't know what I. It's like when we. The Bye Bye Birdie, when my mom.

[Unknown Speaker]

Always taped over a part that she thought was too scandalous for us to watch. And we thought it was gonna be.

[Ashley Flowers]

So bad, it was so much worse in our heads.

[Unknown Speaker]

And we watched it and it was just a dance scene that she had cut. Yeah, that was it. That was it.

[Ashley Flowers]

So it's like a side story. But it's so interesting because, like, the stor. There's like no meat there. They have like this wild headline and then like two interesting lines and then like a bunch of nothing to back it up.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like 17 different lines saying the exact same thing, written slightly different just to back up the headline.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's truly headline only. And all of the headlines were, mom this, dad that. And the tabloids were freaking ruthless. Like, they were following them, they were harassing them. They said. Or Don told me that they had to, like, hide Burke on the floorboard of the car just to, like, get him to school. Like, is nothing off limits? I mean, I already told you about her autopsy photos getting released earlier. We talked about her, like, bedwetting and stuff that got released because they ended up releasing her medical records. Like, someone leaked this girl's medical record to reporters in some way. And I, like, I don't want to go into, like, every single visit or not visit. Point is, like, people were coming out of the woodwork and anyone with pictures or stories were, like, trying to just make a buck. Some of them were fabricated. Some of them were true. And one of them that has become, like, a central part of the story is the fact that JonBenet was having toileting issues. And this information in particular, I feel like, kind of becomes the crux of Detective Steve Thomas theory. He was very clear that he thought Patsy was the one who killed JonBenet. His idea was that JonBenet wet herself that night. And everything else was done to, like, stage a cover up. He even wrote a book on the case. And, like, his theory of it, the Ramses ended up suing him and his publisher over it. They settle. Detective Arndt had a different theory. Like, she very much was suspicious of John. Like, she thought he had something to do with her death. And like, I. I think I brought up her Good Morning America interview already. From 1999.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cordial statement.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, right, right, right. So I don't need to rehash the whole thing. I'm gonna link it out. It's gonna be in all the source material. It is interesting to watch because she looks like a woman who's sh. Or people, like, throw out nasty things too. And she doesn't give a motive. Maybe she doesn't know what the motive totally was. But she seems to straight up be perceived as, like, scared of John Ramsey. Like, she talks about this moment when he brings JonBenet's body up and they're both, like, over her. And she's like, I look at him and like, in that moment, I just know. And then she tells him to go call 911. And she says, she grabs her shoulder holster, like, her gun, and she counts her bullet because she didn't know if everyone would make it out, if they're alive or like. Or would be alive when they come. Like, first responders. Now, I said she like, looks scared to me, but she gets written off as a crazy lady. Like, a lot of people call her crazy. Like, I think that's an easy out when you're talking about a woman. Like, we. That's just something that I think is just an easy thing to say. Like, and really, John in our interview, like, he stressed that to me, like, just how crazy she was, how, like, incompetent. But I asked him in the interview because I do know that later on, Patsy and Linda end up having some kind of like at least cordial exchanges where Linda like goes and meets with Patsy for like an hour, like just the two of them. And I asked him because he was, he was still like, she's so crazy. She's so crazy. And I was like, but clearly there's some kind of relationship. And at first he was like, well, you know, she was the detective. I'm like, no, no, no. But like, it was after she got taken off the case. What did they talk about? And John says he doesn't know he was a part of the conversation. So that answer probably died with Patsy. I think John still, to me, he still called her crazy. And I think she gets a lot of the flack for bungling the scene that first day. But she actually ended up suing her department, saying that she was. They had kind of like an unofficial gag order from what I understand. And she says she was kept from defending herself. Like it wasn't all on her, she says, and it ruined her career. And she does. She kind of like unceremoniously just like gets taken off the case. She got harassed by question mark. I don't really know. I don't know if anyone knows for sure. She doesn't do interviews anymore. There was a rumor she was writing a book, but I haven't seen like a peep about that. So she probably saw what happened to Steve Thomas with his book and her case against the department ended up getting dismissed. So there was like no winning for her to talk about. Like, I couldn't even reach her for like an off the record conversation. So she's far removed from this now. Moral of the story, the loud theories among law enforcement were family centric. And it seems like even they couldn't agree on who or why because things were a mess. Many people were calling for a grand jury to be convened so that they could decide what is just tabloid fodder and what is real evidence. Like, was there someone in the house responsible for something that night, or should we be out there looking for an intruder? Like the Ramses have been saying all along, and it takes almost two years, but the dam finally breaks in September of 1998. That is when a grand jury finally gets called. But before that, two very big letters get published publicly. One from Fleet White in anticipation of the grand jury, and then another from Detective Steve Thomas, who is like dunzo with this. He resigns from the department in like a pretty dramatic way. And listen, the next part's gonna be like just a little bit long, but girl, it's like, it is spicy. And remember, you guys like you signed up for this. So I am going to edit each of just a little bit down for like, clarity. But I'm going to have links to the full thing in our show notes so you can go read them in full. Grab your popcorn. Let's get comfy. The first from Detective Steve Thomas.

[Unknown Speaker]

Chief Bechner On June 22, I submitted a letter to Chief Kobe requesting a leave of absence from the Boulder Police Department in response to persistent speculation as to why I chose to leave the Ramsey investigation. This letter explains more fully those reasons. The primary reason I chose to leave is my belief that the District Attorney's office continues to mishandle the Ramsey case. I had been troubled for many months with many aspects of the investigation, albeit an uphill battle of a case. To begin with. It became a nearly impossible investigation because of the political alliances, philosophical differences, and professional egos that block progress in more ways and on more occasions than I can detail in this memorandum. On June 1st and 2nd, 1998, we crunched 30,000 pages of investigation to its essence and put our cards on the table, delivering the case in a formal presentation to the District Attorney's office. We stood confident in our work. Very shortly thereafter, though, the detectives who know this case better than anyone were advised by the District Attorney's office that we would not be participating as grand jury advisory witnesses. How were we expected to solve this case when the District Attorney's office was crippling us with their positions? I believe they were literally facilitating the escape of justice during this investigation. Consider the during the investigation, detectives would discover, collect, and bring evidence to the District Attorney's office, only to have it summarily dismissed or rationalized as insignificant. The most elementary of investigative efforts, such as obtaining telephone and credit card records, were met without support. Search warrants denied, the significant opinions of national experts were casually dismissed or ignored by the District Attorney's office. Even the experienced FBI were waived aside in a departure from protocol. Police reports, physical evidence, and investigative information we shared with Ramsey defense attorneys all of this in the District Attorney's office spirit of cooperation, I served a search warrant only to find later defense attorneys were simply given copies of the evidence it yielded. An FBI agent whom I didn't even know quietly tipped me off about what the DA's office was doing behind our backs, conducting investigation the police department was wholly unaware of. I was advised not to speak to certain witnesses and all but dissuaded from pursuing particular investigative efforts. Innocent people were not cleared, publicly or otherwise, even when it was unmistakably the right thing to do. As reputations and lives were destroyed, some in the District Attorney's office to this day pursue weak, defenseless and innocent people in shameless tactics that one couldn't believe. More bizarre if it were made up. I was told by one in the District Attorney's office about being unable to break a particular police officer from his resolute accounts of events he had witnessed. In my opinion, this was not trial preparation. This was an attempt to derail months of hard work. There is evidence that was critical to the investigation that to this day has never been collected because neither search warrants nor other means were supported to do so. Not to mention evidence which still sits today untested in the laboratory as differences continue about how to proceed. While investigative efforts were rebuffed, my search warrant affidavits and attempts to gather evidence in the murder investigation of a six year old child were met with refusals. And instead the suggestion that we ask the permission of the Ramseys before proceeding and just before conducting the Ramsey interviews, I thought it inconceivable I was being lectured on building trust. These are but a few of the many examples of why I chose to leave. Having to convince, to plead at times to a District Attorney's office to assist us in the murder of a little girl by way of the most basic of investigative requests was simply absurd. I believe the District Attorney's office is thoroughly compromised. When we were told by one in the District Attorney's office months before we had even completed our investigation that this case is not prosecutable, we shook our heads in disbelief. Will there be a real attempt at justice? I may be among the last to find out. It is my belief the District Attorney's office has effectively crippled this case. The time for intervention is now. What I witnessed for two years of my life was so fundamentally flawed it reduced me to tears. Everything the badge ever meant to me was so foundationally shaken. One should never have to sell one's soul as a prerequisite to wear it. On June 26th. After leaving the investigation for the last time and leaving the city of Boulder, I wept as I drove home, removing my detective shield and placing it on the seat beside me. Later, putting it on a desk drawer at home, knowing I could never put it back on. At 36 years old, I thought my life's passion as a police officer was carved in stone. I realized that although I may have to trade my badge for a carpenter's hammer, I will do so with a clear conscience. It is with a heavy heart that I offer my resignation from the Boulder Police Department in protest of this continuing travesty. Detective Steve Thomas, number 638, Detective Division, Boulder Police Department.

Okay, that was so much.

[Ashley Flowers]

I knew I edited down.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, you trimmed this up for clarity. We only got the big parts, the important parts. But, I mean, I guess what I'm taking away from it is he's thinking that the police and the da.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, he's saying. So he. Like, he was on Boulder. He was on Boulder pd, and he's basically highlighting the rift that I think was kind of becoming evident. Like, it very much felt like they were a little bit on different teams, and they tried, like, publicly to, like, be a united front, but it was, like, it was pretty clear that's not what was happening. And, you know, one of the things I actually, he kind of, like, touched on the search warrants and stuff. When I was interviewing John, I was like, you know, one of the things I heard was that, like, they didn't get your, like, cell phone records and stuff like that. And he's like, no, no, no. Like, the second they asked for something, we gave it to them. And it's like, this is one of those things where, like, it's all true. So it seems like the DA's office was delaying the PD in requesting those things. Like, they weren't signing the search warrants. They were asking them not to go ask the family.

[Unknown Speaker]

So there were times when maybe things weren't collected in a timely manner, but it wasn't because the Ramseys were withholding things. It's because things weren't, like, flowing properly on the law enforcement side.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And at the same time, not because law enforcement didn't want it. It's because they were, like, being held. Bureaucracy, like, yeah, like, yes, and maybe more.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, and. But why?

[Ashley Flowers]

But why? But why? So the Ramseys have been clear that they feel like no other suspect were investigated properly. And if you read legal depositions or watch any of the clips that have come out from them, like, again, that letter from Steve Thomas is scathing. His book is as well. But I like went through and I was like reading the deposition and watching some of the clips and there are times that in my opinion Steve Thomas gets caught where like I do think there were areas pointed out where like they could have done more investigating or ways that he he frames things in his book that I don't like when you're literally on the line legally, maybe it's not as strong as you again framed it. And then I also think we're very clear in that there is not a symbiotic relationship between the DA's office and the police. And the second letter I mentioned, the Fleet White letter, I think it really raises the question of why that was, which is what we're saying, but why? So here you go again, edited down a little bit, but I'll link you.

[Unknown Speaker]

The full one to the people of Colorado in anticipation of receiving a subpoena to appear before that grand jury. We wish at this time to address matters concerning the investigation which we feel are of great importance to the people of Colorado and the Boulder community. After JonBenet Ramsey was killed in Boulder nearly 20 months ago, her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, immediately hired prominent Democrat criminal defense attorneys with the law firm of Haddon, Morgan and Foreman. This firm and its partners have close professional, political and personal ties to prosecutors, the Denver and Boulder legal and judicial communities, state legislators and high ranking members of Colorado government, including Governor Roy Romer. We knew JonBenet and her parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as witnesses during the past year. We have also come to know and respect Mr. Thomas and were saddened and discouraged by his departure from the investigation. We share Mr. Thomas view regarding the District Attorney and his contention that overwhelming pressure brought to bear on the District Attorney and police leadership from various quarters has thwarted the investigation and delayed justice in the case. While it is unlikely that the District Attorney has been corrupted by Ramsey defense attorneys, it is certain that the District Attorney and his prosecutors have been greatly influenced by their metro area district attorney advisors and by defense attorneys, chummy persuasiveness and threats of reprisals for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients. Indeed, the District Attorney and Ramsey attorneys have simultaneously rebuked the police for focusing their investigation on the Ramseys when in fact police were simply following evidence. Notwithstanding what the public has been led to believe, Boulder police leadership and detectives have been under the effective control of the District Attorney and his advisors since the early days of the investigation in December 1997 we met with Governor Romer to request that the state intervene and appoint an independent special prosecutor to take over the investigation and prosecution of the case. Citing the growing conflict between police and prosecutors and the delay of any progress in the investigation, we expressed our view that Boulder authorities were incapable of seeking justice. Most developments in the case brought to the public's attention throughout 1997 should be regarded as well publicized but clumsy attempts by the District attorney and police leadership to look busy, follow long task lists and clean up investigative files while the District attorney killed time and spread out responsibility for the case. On the other hand, advances in the case since early this year have been carefully planned to condition the public for a grand jury investigation. The District Attorney's past indecision and the need for police to ask him for a grand jury investigation were deliberate attempts to mislead the public. If based on nothing other than the District Attorney's repeated public statements and leaks characterizing the case as not prosecutable, there can be little doubt that absent a confession, the people running the investigation had long ago decided against filing charges in the case. Instead, they manipulated public opinion to favor the use of the grand jury. There is compelling evidence, however, that their motivation for presenting the case to a grand jury has little or nothing to do with obtaining new evidence, grilling reluctant witnesses or returning an indictment, and everything to do with sealing away facts, circumstances and evidence gathered in the investigation. In a grand jury transcript. It is our firm belief that the District Attorney and others intend to use the grand jury and its secrecy in an attempt to protect their careers and also serve the conflicting interests of powerful, influential and threatening people who have something to hide or protect or who simply don't want to be publicly linked to a dreadful murder investigation. In direct response to Mr. Thomas recent letter, Governor Romer met on August 12, 1998, with district attorneys Grant, Ritter, Peters and Thomas. Later that day, Governor Romer announced at a press conference that Hunter had told him that the case was on track for a grand jury. Roemer said that it would be improper to appoint a special prosecutor now, but that to improve public confidence in the case, he would make available to Hunter additional prosecutorial expertise. On August 13, 1998, the Rocky Mountain News offered an editorial entitled Calling in the Cavalry, in which the editor generally supported Governor Romer's action but insightfully asked the obvious why has it taken so long for Hunter's office to present the case to a grand jury? There is a relatively simple but compelling answer to the question raised by the Rocky Mountain News editorial. Since very early in the case, there has been at least a tacit understanding among the district attorney police leadership, those persons advising these agencies, and Ramsey defense attorneys that the case would be presented to a grand jury, but not until the statutory Boulder grand jury was convened in April 1998. This delay was deemed necessary by some or all of these parties in order to take advantage of a new statute concerning grand jury reporting procedures. By law, however, this change in procedure would only apply to reports issued by grand juries convened after October 1, 1997. In order to take advantage of the new statute, a Boulder grand jury would have to wait until April 1998, the next convening of the statutory Boulder grand jury, subsequent to October 1, 1997. In order to accomplish this, it was necessary for these people to stall and cynically rely on the public's relative ignorance of the statute and the purpose and general nature of grand juries. Speaking in favor of the bill before the committee were District Attorneys Ritter, Thomas and Grant. All of these district attorneys, along with Jim Peters, would be named publicly as advisors to Alex Hunter on the Ramsey case. The original intent of the Colorado District Attorney Counsel draft and that of Representative Coffman was to make it easier for grand juries to issue reports in cases where there is not an indictment returned, but where in the public interest the grand jury wishes to address allegations of misconduct by public employees falling short of criminal conduct. The final bill made it possible for a grand jury to address allegations of first and second degree murder and the two classes of child abuse resulting in death. The new statute would enable a Boulder grand jury investigating the death of John Bennett Ramsey to publicly exonerate someone who'd been alleged to have committed one of these crimes, but only in the event an indictment was not returned. The bill was signed into law by Governor Romer on April 8, 1997. It is certain that Boulder County District Attorney Alex Hunter, the metro area district attorneys advising Mr. Hunter, the current leadership of the Boulder Police Department, the three attorneys advising the Boulder Police Department, and Ramsey defense attorneys have known that to take advantage of the new statute, it would be necessary to delay a grand jury investigation of the Ramsey case until April 1998. The people of Colorado are entitled to be frustrated and angry with those public officials and other persons who have brought this case to its current status. We must be mindful, however, of the first cause of the investigation's failure, the refusal of John and Patsy Ramsey to cooperate fully and genuinely with those officially charged with the responsibility of investigating the death of their daughter, JonBenet Fleet Russell White Jr. And Priscilla Brown White August 17, 1998 Boulder, Colorado okay, what I.

Know my head is, is absolutely spinning. I can barely get my thoughts straight on this.

[Ashley Flowers]

I know we obviously weren't reading Colorado newspapers in 1998 and like, this seems a little too hard hitting for like the grocery store tabloids when we were.

[Unknown Speaker]

In like third grade.

[Ashley Flowers]

So I think a lot of people missed this.

[Unknown Speaker]

So basically, in a nutshell, Fleet is saying that there's just mad corruption.

[Ashley Flowers]

Not so much corruption, but like conflict of interest.

[Unknown Speaker]

So a bill was made with the intention of clarifying the law so that there was more like transparency in the process for the public, which would basically let them issue certain reports from grand jury proceedings but still keep other parts of things confidential.

[Ashley Flowers]

Check.

[Unknown Speaker]

But by the time it rinsed the system, timing it like right after JonBenet's death and with the help of people providing advisement, consultation or representation in her case, it was a little different.

[Ashley Flowers]

Different?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, because I know where this is going. I'll cut right to the chase. One of the main things that it would allow them to do is say that like, oh, the jury didn't indict, which means there's no case, my hands are tied, blah, blah, blah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, bingo. And you do know where this is going. So the grand jury is called. Lots of witnesses. We know some through reporting like who was going to court and whatnot. Like, I know Detective Linda Arms. I know Burke, I know the Ramsey's pilot, the Whites. Lots, lots, lots more big hitters. Yeah, not Steve Thomas, as we know from his letter. Not the Ramseys like John and Patsy, though John has always maintained that they were more than willing to go to participate in any way necessary. But ultimately they were not called. And then In October of 1999, their hearings come to an end and the district Attorney may makes this long awaited announcement.

[Unknown Speaker]

The Boulder grand jury has completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed.

[Ashley Flowers]

The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well, bringing to bear all of their legal powers, life experiences and shrewdness. Yet I must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Warrant the filing of charges against anyone.

[Ashley Flowers]

Who has been investigated.

[Unknown Speaker]

At this time. Under Colorado law, the proceedings of the.

[Ashley Flowers]

Grand jury are secret. Under no circumstances will I or any of my advisors, prosecutors, the law enforcement.

[Unknown Speaker]

Officers working on the case, or grand jurors discuss the grand jury proceedings today.

[Ashley Flowers]

Or ever unless ordered by the court.

[Unknown Speaker]

So basically everyone decided the Ramseys had nothing to do with it because the grand jury didn't indict.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes. That was basically the implied message to the public, like, hey, no tabloid bs, like these are the facts and these people decided that there would be no charges is the implied message.

[Unknown Speaker]

And did Linda Arndt ever speak out after that?

[Ashley Flowers]

No. So she did her Good Morning America thing that I talked about. She did that right before this happened.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

So she did that interview in September. And the Ramsey's lawyers, they made a statement about her appearance that I found in the Denver Post because they like, comment on the timing. So they said, quote, we question the timing of this interview. The statement from the Ramsey attorney said the grand jury will conclude its work in the next month. There is no good reason why Ms. Arndt could not have sought publicity after the grand jury process was concluded, end quote. Now after this is when momentum really picks up, I think, for the Ramsey family who finally feels this small amount of vindication. And they hope that maybe now investigators will focus on looking for the intruder that they say came into their home, that they've been saying all along came into their home, a home which they sell and move away from to go back to Georgia. And John told me that his company had this relocation program where they would buy your house, like, and I've seen stuff like this with like big organizations, especially for like high up exams. Like they would buy it from you so that you can move when they need you to move and not be like held up by this house or whatever. So they buy it and then would sell it or whatever. But it's interesting because like the documentation around this is kind of weird. So from the records that I pulled from the assessor's office, I see where the house was bought presumably by the Ramseys in 1991 for $500,000. Then in December of 1997. So this is about a year after JonBenet. It looks like there is a transfer of the deed, but it is a zero dollar transaction.

[Unknown Speaker]

So like no one bought it. It was like me giving a house to you or something like that.

[Ashley Flowers]

There's a money association from the assessor's office records and I can't see who it went to. Like they don't have that publicly available.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's just a transfer on record.

[Ashley Flowers]

Right. Then we see another transfer happen in February of 1998 for $650,000. According to statements made to reporters. Mike Bynum says that a group of investors purchased the Ramsey house from like this Lockheed Middleman thing, but they didn't purchase it under any like one person's name or person's names, which again, is like a totally normal thing. The LLC formed is named after the address. So it's 75515 Street, LLC. Mike Bynum told the Daily Camera that this group of investors was composed of individuals assisting the Ramsey family.

[Unknown Speaker]

What does that even mean?

[Ashley Flowers]

I can't tell you because I looked up the property records and then the business records. So I went and looked for 75515 Street, LLC. The company doesn't list individuals names under its members, so instead it lists Group two, Partnership, Group four, Partnership. And then there's a registered agent, because you have to have someone's name. You can't just like, you have to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Be a human there.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. You can't just like, go company or company or llc, whatever. And the registered agent is a woman named Ann Bork. And there's a listed address of 19 15th street in Boulder. So I did a newspaper.com archive lookup with that address. And like, listen, newspapers.com, it's great. It's not the end all be all. In fact, I found that it's, like, actually very hard to find a lot of bolder things in there. I don't think they're included. But I did find one article in total. When I Google that address. There is one article that comes up, and it's from the Daily Sentinel, from Fed, February 6, 1997. It's this article about, like, the cost of the Ramsey investigation. Like, what it's costing, like, the police, the city. Yeah. And then towards the end, it says, Wednesday, the Ramsey family announced the address to mail contributions for a children's advocacy group founded in their daughter's memory. Donations may be sent to the JonBenet Ramsey Children's foundation in care of the Colorado Business bank of Bold, Boulder, 1900 15th Street, Boulder, 80302. And so then I got into this, like, weird rabbit hole with this bank because then when I started looking up the bank, I found this next article from the daily sentinel from January 13, 1997, and it says, women's bank has changed its name to Colorado Business Bank. A sign of the progress women have made since the business was founded 20 years ago ago. But in a piece then later that I saw in, like, denverlibrary.org, it says that the Women's bank sold in 1994 and that the name change happened in 1995, not 1997, when this article that I found was. And according to the nice librarian at the Carnegie Library of Local history in Boulder, Colorado that address, the 1915th street was listed for Colorado Business bank in their phone book in 1997 and 1998. But then it wasn't there anymore in 1999. And then I saw that, like, when I look at the Colorado Business bank, it got bought by Bok Financial in 2018. So it's not like it got bought and changed, you know, in 99 when it disappears. And it all probably means nothing. Like, I don't know who Ann Bourke is. It's probably not weird that she, with the house, is tied to this address where, like, they're doing foundation donations. Because we know that the group who bought the house was, like, composed of, like, people who were supporting the Rams.

[Unknown Speaker]

It almost feels like. Almost like an executor of a will type situation. Like a figurehead for an organization and a foundation or whatnot.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. So I don't know, again, she might have some connection. I tried reaching out to people who might have, like, known her. I haven't had any luck getting anyone to talk to me. But let's go back to the house for a second. Second. So the statements made about the house at the time, about this, like, mystery purchase, was that this group was going to hold onto the house for, like, TBD amount of time. And then all of the profits from the house are going to go to the JonBenet Ramsey Children's foundation, which by this point, Jon and Patsy had set up in memory of JonBenet with the help of Mike Bynum. He's always there. According to the Denver Post, the foundation was formed with the goal to, like I think they said, gather funds to be used in the education and care of children, all in the memory of JonBenet.

[Unknown Speaker]

So do you know when the house sold?

[Ashley Flowers]

I do. So the house didn't sell until 2004.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, so this is a total aside, but I just read a book. It's called Tell Me Everything the Story of a Private Investigation. And it's about this private investigator's assistant who is investigating University of Colorado. And one of the people that she's investigating is, like, someone who is living in the Ramsey house at the time of the investigation, which is like, wait, what year? Late 90s, early 2000s.

[Ashley Flowers]

So it's like in this interim period.

[Unknown Speaker]

In this interim period, I think, ooh, odd. And like, he's not a person who should be able to necessarily afford a 6,000 square foot mansion. The timing was just weird. I wanted to mention it.

[Ashley Flowers]

And we know that there's no, like, transaction in that period. Right. So like, someone must have been, like, renting it or letting him stay there. I wish I could tell you who, but I don't know who. I don't know who.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who was holding the property at that place.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Weird.

[Unknown Speaker]

Just a thought. Just an aside. Just a weird thing.

[Ashley Flowers]

You just, like, happened to read that book. I love it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Literally, like, a month ago.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, so to go back. So I looked at the foundation a little bit. So they say that they're gonna hold the house for TBD amount of time, maybe rent it out. We don't know. And then they're going to donate the money from, like, the proceeds of whatever profit from the house to the foundation. I didn't find what I was expecting to find. So the 990 forms for the organization, they filed in 1998, 1999 and 2000. And they don't show any huge transactions after 2000. I think they actually stopped filing. And then the foundation gets shut down in 2003. Shutting it down in 2003 meant that contributions from the sale of the house in 2004 couldn't go there. Oh, so I don't know where they went. You would have to ask Group two Partners and Group four Partners if anyone knows who that is. Unfortunately, we can't ask Ann Bourke because she died in 2009. So, again, I see why. Maybe the house stuff didn't go there. I was also expecting, though, to see money from the sale of John and Patsy's book. So they wrote a book called the Death of Innocence. And many of the statements that I have seen from them from their team, from all these different people, is that the proceeds from the book were gonna go towards two things. So the Ramsey legal fees and the foundation. Now, per John, it seems like their legal fees, like, bled them dry. At one point, his lawyers represented him. He said pro bono because they couldn't afford to pay them anymore. Well, what I find interesting is that the goal must have changed to be that two prong approach at some time. Because when I sat down with John, he actually gave us these box of, like, tapes. And most of them are, like, pageant stuff for home movies, like family weddings, whatever. But actually, one of those tapes appears to be of John and Patsy practicing their book promotion interviews with a media trainer, which is very normal. Like, I did media training before I went on the Today show talking about my book. But this is where, like, again, in this, at least, it seems like it started, that the money was gonna only go to one place. Here, take a listen. Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

One.

That's it. You are. You have written a very thorough and interesting book. What do you intend to do with the prophets? That's not too personal.

Should I always wait for Patsy to answer or should I just.

No, just if I'm looking at you.

Okay. Well, we've established a foundation in JonBenet's name to honor her and to leave a legacy for her. And the prophets from the book will go to the foundation. The foundation is going to focus on protecting children against predators.

[Ashley Flowers]

Is that.

[Unknown Speaker]

I guess that's it, then?

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

It just sort of leaves me hanging here. I mean, that's a very generous and good thing for you to do.

[Ashley Flowers]

Is it?

[Unknown Speaker]

How will you know how to protect children against predators? I mean, how would you use the money to do that?

Well, we've seen a number of flaws in our system as it relates to the murder of a child. We are the strongest, most powerful nation on earth, and yet we don't respond with our might when one of our children is murdered. That's wrong. We want to advocate change.

Would it be possible for you to cite some of the cases that you're talking about other than your own? One of the best examples that we have learned about through all of this is that when your child's photograph is taken at school or at church or in any kind of activity, dance recitals, piano recitals, that that photograph becomes the property of the photographer. And he or she may publish that photograph at any time, any place that they so choose, without your permission. So, for instance, they own the copyrights. What danger can happen if you have a picture of your child, your child's photograph is someplace, and a pedophile or someone who has reason to want to zero in on that child and do harm to that child, that is a bad thing. So are you associating that with your own tragedy? Are you saying that there were so many photographs of JonBenet because of the work that she did in the pageants, that that could have incited something? I'm saying that that is an example of one way that we need to. We do not need to. To put our children out there in newspaper articles. And the photographs should be for family memories, not for public release.

Well, and most important, when a child is murdered in this country, we need to respond with the best. We have to find the killer. That does two things. It sends a message that we're not going to tolerate it. And if you think about harming our children, you better think twice. And secondly, it ensures that we capture these monsters before they kill again.

I don't doubt that you have beneficent and wonderful feelings about doing this kind of thing, but how would you go about. About protecting a child against a perpetrator?

I would. I would advocate that the murder of a child be the most serious offense in our society. It should be a federal crime to murder a child in this country.

And once found, once the murderer is found, he should be given. He should be executed or given a life sentence.

He should be. He should be put away forever. That's the most horrible thing a human being can do, is to pray on a child.

[Ashley Flowers]

Okay, what I'm getting at is, I.

[Unknown Speaker]

Think, the wonderful and very generous thing to do to donate the profits of your book to such a cause. I don't know how you're going to implement it and how you're going to make it happen through educational awareness, through legislation. They're all. Have you done any of that yet?

[Ashley Flowers]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

All right.

[Ashley Flowers]

Hasn't the foundation already been set up? I mean, I heard you say.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, we can offer rewards, substantial rewards for information. We can establish a tip center, an information center center. We can establish databases that track known child sex offenders. We can put experts in place, make experts available to local law enforcement. We can advocate in the United States Congress that the murder of a child should be mandated as a federal crime. Federal resources should be put on attacking that.

But so far, you haven't done anything like that.

No, nor has anyone else. But we're going to try. We're going to do the best we can. Because it's a horrible flaw in our system. We respond aggressively when a bank is robbed.

[Ashley Flowers]

So John and I, when I talked to him, we didn't get into where the house money went during our conversation, because if he sold it, I'm not sure he's the person who has the answers that I'm looking for. We did get a little bit into JonBenet's legacy and what's happening in place at the foundation. I'm gonna touch on that a little bit later. I don't think the Ramseys were ever planning to fund the whole foundation themselves. Perhaps there weren't many contributions at most. Like I said, I only saw small transactions. And at most there was like $12,000 that I saw, like, in the thing. So. So while starting the foundation was like a noble effort, it perhaps wasn't the undertaking that they were ready for. As someone who's started, like a true 501C3, like, it is a heck of a lot of work and like to keep it running to keep it sustainable on its own. It is like a massive undertaking. So whatever they were planning, I mean in that interview, it's like have you done this? No. Like are you planning to do it? Yes, like it that doesn't actually come to fruition. So in 2003 the foundation goes defunct. Oh there's something. 2003 was a weird year. So the foundation goes defunct in 2003 and then something else happens and it's one of those other things that I had never known about before.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Ashley Flowers]

Com Code Fit Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. The Shop Pay feature even boosts conversions up to 50%. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout top brands like all birds use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com podcast free. All lowercase go to shopify.com podcast free to upgrade your selling today. Okay, so here is a media release that was sent out on Wednesday, June 4, 2003 that has been archived on.

[Unknown Speaker]

BoulderColorado.gov the Boulder Police Department recently became aware that someone was unlawfully sending emails using the name of Chief Bechner. On April 25, 2003, Rocky Mountain News columnist Charlie Brennan received an email titled as Being from Chief Bechner complimenting Mr. Brennan for a recent column he had written on the JonBenet Ramsey case. According to embedded information within the message, the email was sent from an MSN hotmail account beckner bpdotmail.com the email was then signed off with Regards, Mark. Please see below. Message text from Chief bechner sent Friday, April 25, 2003 1:16pm to Brennanckymountainnews.com Great articles, Charlie. Just want you to know I thought those two articles you wrote today were excellent. You got everything right as you always do. Thanks for all your support. Eventually we'll be proven right. Regards, Mark Being skeptical of the message's authenticity, Mr. Brennan telephoned Chief Bechner to ask him about the message. Chief Beckner confirmed that he did not send the message. The Chief was alarmed that someone was apparently using his title and name without authorization to communicate about the JonBenet Ramsey case with members of the media. Search warrants were obtained and executed for MSN Hotmail in California. According to MSN hotmail, the Bechner bpdotmail.com account was established in 2000. The account creator provided information stating that the owner was Chief Bechner from Boulder, Colorado, and furthermore provided an accurate birth year for the chief. Further investigation led police to the Internet Protocol IP numbers from where the suspect had been accessing the Bechner bpdotmail.com account since early March 2003. All access to the Bechner bpdotMail.com account were from a single Netcom now owned by Earthlink Dial Up Account. A search warrant was obtained and executed for EarthLink in Georgia. According to EarthLink's records, the account holder that has been Accessing the Bechner bpdotmail.com email account is Susan B. Stein, 5760 Long Grove Drive, Atlanta, GA. Susan Stein is known as a close friend of John and Patsy Ramsey and has been interviewed as a witness in reference to the Ramsey investigation. The search warrants also yielded other messages that had been received by the Bechner bpdotmail.com account. A number of these messages indicate that the Bechner bpdotmail.com user had been attempting to convince others that he or she was Chief Mark Beckner. Others appeared to be nonsensical. Please note that the investigators were able to confirm that the messages to and from Rocky Mountain News reporter Charlie Brennan and Rita Johnson were received or sent by those individuals. The other messages were not confirmed as received or sent by those parties. At the request of the Boulder Police Department, members of the Georgia Bureau of investigation went to Ms. Stein's residence in an attempt to interview her on June 3, 2003. However, she refused to talk with the GBI agent. Chief Mark Bechner is alarmed by the discovery that his name and position as Boulder police Chief has been used in an effort to communicate with others. Given the history of the Ramsey case and the concerns we have had with information being distributed to the public, oftentimes inaccurate information, this discovery is disturbing, stated Chief Bechner. I want the media and public to know that if they have received communications from this email address purporting to be me that it is bogus. My official email address is public and is Bechner mldercolorado.gov Under Colorado law, criminal impersonation is a Class 6 felony and impersonating a police officer is a Class 1 misdemeanor. The Boulder Police Department and the Boulder County District Attorney's Office have agreed to issue a letter to Susan Stein advising her of the unlawful conduct and that the use of Chief Bechner's name in such a manner must cease immediately. The Bechner bpdotmail.com account has been frozen by MSN Hotmail. The Boulder Police Department would like anyone receiving email messages from any reported member of the Boulder Police Department to know that official email addresses use the member's last Name, Name and First Initial followed by OlderColorado.gov if you are not sure that a message is legitimate, please call the department member to confirm that they did in fact send the message. We are concerned that there could be other messages out there, reportedly from either me or other department members that are fake in an attempt to either receive information or communicate false information, stated Bechner. On June 3, 2003, Jief Bechner did receive an email from Susan Stein in which she apologized for using the Hotmail account, describing it as a sophomoric prank and apologizing for any distress she may have caused. Anyone with additional information is encouraged to call Boulder police detective Jim McPherson at 303-441-3330.

I'm sorry, what was that?

[Ashley Flowers]

Isn't that weird?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but I think I'm confused. I thought the Steins lived in Boulder.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yes and no. The Steins did live in Boulder in 1996. They were the ones who the Ramses stopped to give that present to.

[Unknown Speaker]

They were like the last stop on Christmas. They lived there for a little bit.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yep. They lived at their house for a little bit after. And some way, somehow, some reason, the Steins end up moving to Atlanta either at the same time as the Ramses or after the Ramses moved back to Atlanta. Like, the timing is unclear, but they do pick up their family and their lives and move to Atlanta.

[Unknown Speaker]

I love you so much. We've never moved together.

[Ashley Flowers]

We've done a lot of moving. We have never followed one another. No, I love you too. And it's interesting because as of Monday, March 17, 1997, there is this Time article that's published that day where the article is not like what matters, like it's talking about, like the cost of tuition or whatever. But Glenn Stein is quoted in that article. But they give his title and he's the vice president for finance at the University of Colorado, which is like a pretty sweet gig to walk away from. But still, I mean, I know people move before that the article says that he was a senior budget official at Penn from I think it was like 82 to 90.

[Unknown Speaker]

The Sandusky eras.

[Ashley Flowers]

The Sandusky era. Yeah. So lots of reason to leave, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

So maybe he left Colorado to go to another university. I don't have record of where he went after Colorado, so I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, and again, not to reference this book, but the timing is interesting because the scandal that the book was investigating was a sex scandal at the University of Colorado.

[Ashley Flowers]

He's not mentioned though, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, but it's happening at the university and there's a cover up and there's money involved, so maybe so the same.

[Ashley Flowers]

Way he could have been.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, it's just interesting timing, that's all. Yeah, I was gonna say.

[Ashley Flowers]

So the same reason, like, I mean, I can understand wanting to, like, leave Penn for something. Like, all the reason to want to leave or like, find a new something, organization, something. Yeah, whatever. So maybe that. Maybe that's why, like, I could never, like, I don't. I didn't understand the timing of it, but, like, maybe something was going on at the university that he. He was ready to leave.

[Unknown Speaker]

And moving to a place where you already know people, it's good to.

[Ashley Flowers]

It is like, when you. When you think about, like, okay, if my time here is up, like, I'm gonna pick up and leave. We could go anywhere. It's good to go to a community.

[Unknown Speaker]

Where you have community.

[Ashley Flowers]

You have community, right? Like, you have some kind of, like, friend, like, grounding you, whatever. It's so much easier to, like, integrate into a new life. And maybe they thought about, like, going to their friends who, like, who was who, you know, they've become really good friends. Clearly they were living together. Like, they're going through such a hard time. And maybe part of it was not only for them to have a community, but for them to, like, support these newfound friends. And the Ramses still needed the support because even though they weren't physically in Boulder, like, it didn't. None of it stopped. Like, the personal attacks didn't stop, the being hounded by the tabloids didn't stop. Like, they followed them across the country no matter where they went. I even found, actually one of the tabloid articles. It's by these two guys, David Wright and David Duffy. It's from March 11, 1997, where someone had taken the same plane as the Ramses from one end of the country to the other just to, like, report on their every move. Like, who sat where, who looked at who, who didn't look at who. How were they interacting? Like, who got off the plane where? Like, they were all over them. So I understand for the Ramses, again, Steins, maybe they wanted to go support them. The Ramses just needed to get out of there, but they did. The thing I will say, too, is everyone's like, oh, they like, how do you leave when this investigation is going on for your daughter? Don't you want to be a part of that? They did have boots on the ground on their behalf in Boulder. So Lou Smith is on their team by this point. So he was an investigator who was originally brought in by the DA's office to look at this case. He ended up leaving because, like, the official capacity, because he got so frustrated. He felt like everyone was so narrowly focused on the family that they were, like, missing the bigger picture.

[Unknown Speaker]

He felt like there wasn't enough being done right.

[Ashley Flowers]

And this dude straight up devoted his, like, life to JonBenet Ramsey's case. Honestly, his family legacy to this case, because even after he died, his family has, like, gone on to continue his work. Like, they've picked up the torch. They were actually a part of this really, actually interesting podcast I listened to called the killing of JonBenet Ramsey, which I will link to. Admittedly, I. When it first came out, I saw it, and I avoided it. And I think it's, like, so much of this case where I'm, like, I already know. Like, I cannot believe. Like, why are we rehashing this? And it was like, you know, the pageant pictures of her. But once I was, like, diving into it, there was actually a ton I didn't know in that podcast about potential suspects and about the work that Lou Smith has done to. Or he did, his family did to, like, go down those paths to vet things, to, like, put an order of, like, who should we look at? Like, you know, we've got a limited number of resources.

[Unknown Speaker]

Prioritize that.

[Ashley Flowers]

Prioritization. Yes. But anyway, so Lou Smith is, like, all over this case, and I think he really gets people for the first time to think about, like, if it's not the Ramsey, not just like, oh, it's not the Ramses, but really think about, like, okay, if not them, then who and how and why. Now Lou feels confident that the intruder came through that basement window. It was already broken, so they could just like, reach in, unlatch it, open it up. Like, he even demonstrates how easy it would be for someone to, like, slip down into the windows up.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, but what about the spider webs?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I don't the spiderwebs. Do you want to just give them a quick breakdown of the spider webs?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, there was like this grate thing covering the area to get into the window. And there were like officers who said they saw spider webs on this grate. They said it had been there for a while. Someone would have messed it up if the grate had been moved to get into the window. Yeah, I never really see anything like, to fully refute that. I think maybe I heard once they said that maybe the webs weren't like as fresh as they thought they were.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, like, they were saying that, like, if someone had like moved the grate and then put it back, they would expect the spiderwebs to be more fresh looking. Yeah. But they. The interpretation you get from people who are giving us the interpretation of this is that they had been there for a long time.

[Unknown Speaker]

They were more like cobwebby.

[Ashley Flowers]

But I don't know what that means.

[Unknown Speaker]

There aren't any pictures. We don't know what it looks like.

[Ashley Flowers]

They didn't find her body for hours. So also, like, maybe the intruder was like the most lucky person on earth. Like, I don't have enough information to, like, see for myself to like, make my own opinion of this. So you just have these two sides. Right. Like the one saying, like, it is impossible for those spider webs to be there and for your theory to be right. Loose Smith being like, it means nothing. Like, the spiders mean nothing. This is probably how they got in. And then there's also like this third option where like, maybe neither, like John in early days, like, there. And this is where like the conflicting early reports will be like, oh, they say he told them that he locked up that night. But in all of John's statements afterwards, he's like, we left the doors. I don't know if I checked them. Like, we leave the doors, like partially unlocked. Like, there could have been other entry points for this person to come into our home. And they also said lots of people had keys or like keys were missing or floating around or this person had it or like, we never got this key back. So all that to say in my mind though, that was like very much Lou Smith's theory is it had to do with this window. Them dropping down. Them using the suitcase to like get.

[Unknown Speaker]

In and out the window is not the only option.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's not the only option if you are thinking about an intruder theory. So like, I don't want to like die on that hill or get so caught up in that. That again, you can't look at the bigger picture. And there are some other stuff that Lou points out that we haven't really got into yet, and that is the cord used on JonBenet on her neck and her hands. That is never sourced to anything in the house. We don't know where that cord came from. Same thing with the tape that was over her mouth. Like, that never gets sourced to anything in the house. So in Lou Smith's mind, that means that someone had to have brought those things in or taken them out if they were already in the house.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. Versus, like, the legal pad that was left there, the pen, the paintbrush, things that were sourced in the house but also left in the house.

[Ashley Flowers]

Right. So I don't know that you can say that they, like, didn't come from. We just don't know. There's nothing there. So they took something with them, is what Lou's saying, like, or we would find them here, even if we step away from the evidence in the home. Because truly, like, you could go back and forth, back and forth, back and debate this till you're blue in the face. I told you, it's there. I don't want to argue about the meaning of it. That's not my job. I want to get to the facts. So in 2003, more DNA testing is done. And from her underwear, guess what they get. An unknown male profile. DNA like before. But this time, it is enough for a full profile. Good enough to put into codis, which I don't know where. I was, like, sleeping at the wheel before. I was, like, deep in this, like, hi. I didn't even realize there was a CODIS profile on the JonBenet Ramsay case.

[Unknown Speaker]

Neither did I.

[Ashley Flowers]

There, of course, have been no matches, or we would have heard about that by now. Yeah, it's just sitting in the database. Hopefully still is. That was actually one of my questions I wanted to ask Boulder pd because I have seen in other cases that we've worked where the requirements have changed over the years, and I've seen where, like, the DNA was in, but then.

[Unknown Speaker]

There was a change, like an update, and, like, not.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was no longer eligible.

[Unknown Speaker]

Matches the criteria.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. So that's what I. As far as everything I've read is that it's in codis. I wanted to ask them specifically that nothing had changed. But in all that time, no hits. So in later years, additional testing is done by some other crime labs and even other, like, outside of the state agency, like Bodie. Bodie's a big lab still to this date. Who's doing a ton of genealogy stuff, a ton of advanced testing. Season of justice works a lot with them. So Bodie comes in, they do some more testing, and they get an unidentified male profile from her underwear. And lots of people say, here's like, the caveat. Lots of people say this is from saliva. And they might have done an amylase test, which can. Amylase can be found in saliva. It can also be found in other things, but it's usually, like, the levels are so much higher in saliva. So I don't know if that's where they, like, that comes from of, like. We know it's saliva because it wasn't, you know, any other fluid that they've been able to, like, definitively link it to. And I can't get, like, too far or I, like. I'm afraid I'm gonna say something wrong because that's. It's really technical. So what I can go back to is what is very clear in my mind and what I do understand is that when they do this testing, they find more DNA. So we know we've got the DNA in the underwear, but they also test, like, places on her long john, specifically, I think places where they think if someone was gonna, like, pull down her pants, pull up her pants, and they're able to get touch DNA on the outsides, on the left and the right. And on one side, the unidentified male, one profile that we have in the underwear can't be excluded, so we can't exclude excluded. On the other side, it's too small that it can't be included or excluded.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, so we don't know anything.

[Ashley Flowers]

Well, we know that it might match. We know that the DNA in the underwear might match or it's at least consistent with the touch DNA on the outsides. Now, I think it's important to note there is this, like, note that the DNA might come from more than two contributors, which actually makes reading the results, like, from my understanding, even more complicated. But I keep coming back to, like, the word, like, consistent, because I almost have to, like, retrain my brain, because what I had always heard in the public and from, like, statements and stuff is that we have a match. We have the same DNA here, here, and here. And it is not a match in that you can say 100%. These are, like, the exact same profiles. It is cannot be excluded, cannot be include or excluded.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's, like, consistent with.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's enough to be, like, in my mind, probative. Like, it's still very interesting that we have unknown male profiles in all these places. But let's be clear, make sure we're using the right language now. It is powerful enough of a find that the Boulder DA at the time, this woman's name is Mary Lacey. She actually sent the Ramseys a letter of apology. She actually sent it to Jon Ramsey because by that time, Jon told me that Patsy had lost her battle with ovarian cancer. So once again, this letter is slightly edited for clarity, but this is what she told John Ramsey via letter.

[Britt]

July 9, 2008. Mr. John Ramsey, as you are aware, since December 2002, the Boulder District Attorney's Office has been the agency responsible for the investigation of the homicide of your daughter, JonBenet. I understand that the fact that we have not been able to identify the person who killed her is a great disappointment. That is a continuing hardship for you and your family. However, significant new evidence has recently been discovered through the application of relatively new methods of DNA analysis. This new scientific evidence convinces us that it is appropriate, given the circumstances of this case, to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife Patsy, and your son Burke, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime. I wish we could have done so before Mrs. Ramsey died. We became aware last summer that some private laboratories were conducting a new methodology described as touch DNA. One method of sampling for touch DNA is the scraping method. This is a process in which forensic scientists scrape places where there are no stains or other signs of the possible presence of DNA to recover for analysis any genetic material that might nonetheless be present. We contracted with the Bode Technology Group, a highly reputable laboratory recommended to us by several law enforcement agencies, to use the scraping method for touch DNA on the long johns that JonBenet wore and that were probably handled by the perpetrator. During the course of this crime, the Bode Technology Laboratory was able to develop a profile from DNA recovered from the two sides of the long johns. The previously identified profile from the crotch of the underwear worn by John Benet at the time of the murder matched the DNA recovered from the long johns at bodies. Unexplained DNA on the victim of a crime is powerful evidence. The match of male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. Despite substantial efforts over the years to identify the source of this DNA, there is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenet was wearing at the time of her murder. Solving this crime remains our goal, and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching DNA. However, given the history of the publicity surrounding this case, I believe it is important and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime. Based on the DNA results and our serious consideration of all the other evidence, we are comfortable that the profile now in CODIS is the profile of the perpetrator of this murder. To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law. I have the greatest respect for the way you and your family have handled this adversity. I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion. But DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find, and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes. I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all the evidence, including the reliable forensic DNA evidence that has been developed as a result of advances in that scientific field. During this investigation, we intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered. Otherwise, we will continue to refrain from publicly discussing the evidence in this case. We hope that we will one day obtain a DNA match from the CODIS data bank that will lead to further evidence and to the solution of this crime. With recent legislative changes throughout the country, the number of profiles available for comparison in the CODIS data bank is growing steadily. Law enforcement agencies are receiving increasing numbers of cold hits on DNA profiles that have been in the system for many years. We hope that one day soon we will get a match to this perpetrator. We will, of course, contact you immediately. Perhaps only then we will begin to understand the psychopathy or motivation for this brutal and senseless crime. Respectfully, Mary T. Lacey, district attorney, 20th Judicial District, Boulder, Colorado.

[Unknown Speaker]

So there's been a profile in code notice for, like, 20 years with no hits.

[Ashley Flowers]

No hits. Not a single one. And, you know, there's an ABC News article saying that they checked that profile against everyone in the family, along with 200 other potential suspects as well, and all of them have been excluded from this profile. In that same article, actually, Mary Lacey kind of gives her theory, which I believe is, like, close, if not Exact to what the Ramseys subscribe to, which is that while they're out at the Christmas party or not the Christmas dinner at the Whites, someone snuck into their home, wrote that note, laid in wait. They had plenty of time. And when the Ramseys got home, they waited for everyone to go to bed so they could go upstairs where Jon Benny was sleeping and grab her. Now, Lou Smith also strongly believed that a stun was used to subdue her. I'm sure that, like, this theory, like, part of this theory has become pretty popular.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Aren't there, like, two, like, little marks that are right next to each other on her back that Lou said, like, look like they could be stun gun marks or something?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Now, so there's the two marks. There's no burn marks, which is said to be really common with stun guns, which is maybe why the original pathologist just noted them as abrasions. It was, you know, there's like, a lot of back and forth with this. Like, was it a stun gun? Was it not loose? Smith's, like, confident. So there's actually this point where it's recommended to the Ramseys, like, oh, we should exhume JonBenet and have someone else look at her to confirm that. Like, now that we've got this idea, like, could someone else, like, look at this? I don't even say with a more critical view, but, like, with that in mind. But the Ramses don't want to do that. Now, keep in mind this is happening, like, a lot closer to. So, like, they're like, it's not like we're talking years and years.

[Unknown Speaker]

So it would have been, like, useful timing wise. Something might have been there.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. There's still a lot of value in it. Lou Smith seemed to be really on board with this. Like, yes, let's do an exhumation. Let's get a second autopsy. But I think it was Barbara Walters. When John and Patsy went on, they were just saying, like, we don't want to have her exhumed. Like, we just buried her. Like that is.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's a lot of trauma.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. It's too painful. Like, we want our daughter to rest in peace. And in. In their mind, they're like, you have the original pathology report. You have pictures of this. Like, everything we need is here for Lou to even come to this conclusion. Like, we don't need to exhume her.

[Unknown Speaker]

So with the intruder theory, I get the what and the how of the idea. I think it, like, lines up. It makes sense. There's elements to It. That makes sense. But I guess that leaves us with, like, the two major questions left, which is who and why?

[Ashley Flowers]

Which one do you want? First?

[Unknown Speaker]

Let's go with why.

[Ashley Flowers]

So there's no one. So there are two routes with the intruder theory that I have heard the Ramsey camp discuss. One is, like, this idea that this was a pedophile, some kind of sexual deviant all around scary mother roaming the suburban streets of Boulder. Don't get me wrong, like, scary mother is like, every brand of the person who did this. But around this theory, what they point to is the paintbrush being put in her, the choking around her neck. And I would hear Lou say that he believes she was hit in the head after she was choked. I think I said that, like, so all of that. That's one potential avenue theory. Why? The other is that it was someone who hated John Ramsey. Like, the note was clearly about John. Everything was addressed to him. Like, when I sat down with him, he even talked more about this theory, I feel like, than the other total. Like, a lot. Like, he just kept saying, like, they seem to hate him.

[Unknown Speaker]

But then the sexual stuff doesn't really make any sense.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's like, we're best friends. Because literally, like, I asked him that, and he. And he agrees. He's like. I'm just like, okay. But John, if they're like. If they. If this is about you and your business and they don't like you, why did they have to. You're saying all of the other stuff, like, was sexual. It's not a staging. It was sexually motivated. So, like, why. That doesn't make sense. And he's like, no, I can't make sense.

[Unknown Speaker]

Both things can't be true at the same time.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, but I think. I think what they've said before, what I think he would say and what I know they've said before is like, you can't make sense of someone like this. So we've said that before. We've said that before. Yeah. So, like, no, this, like, doesn't make sense to us. But does that mean it couldn't have happened like that?

[Unknown Speaker]

So you gave us two possible whys, but without really landing on one, how do you even get to who?

[Ashley Flowers]

I think it makes your list really long. Like, really long. I know. As part of their defense team, the Ramseys actually hired John Douglas, like, the father of the bau, John Douglas, to consult on the case. And he firmly believes in their innocence. Like, I actually asked him for an interview. He couldn't because of some family things, but he like told us in an email that he was never asked to provide a written profile to either the Ramsey defense or the Boulder pd But he provided his analysis verbally to both. He thinks the Boulder PD even recorded it. But he said he could tell that even when they were, like, hearing him, they still seemed squarely focused on the family. But he firmly believes in the Ramses, he said. And I actually, he gave us a quote to make his position extremely clear. He said, there are no words that can describe what a family goes through when their child is a victim of a violent crime. However, what is profoundly even worse on top of that is to have your child murdered and then be wrongfully accused or even convicted of killing your child. The Ramseys are not murderers, but victims. They are victims of investigative incompetence as well as intentional and prejudicial news coverage. I've worked many cases where parents have killed a child, but this is not one of those cases, end quote. So to go back to the who, if you know this case, you've heard that Santa did it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Santa.

[Ashley Flowers]

Santa, Yep. This, the Santa we're talking about is the Santa from the Ramsey's Christmas party on the 23rd. There were a lot of really odd things about. About him, his family, like, just, like, circumstantial things. You're like, oh, my God, like, those things, it all is just, like, lined up in a very strange way. There was even supposedly JonBenet who was even telling people that, like, Santa was gonna make a special visit to her after Christmas, which was, like, a thing that everyone pointed to a lot. There were pedophiles that were found within the pageant circuit. Like, there is one that surfaces to the top of the list, but not until year later. But when this, like, one comes about, it kind of, like, proved what people were screaming all along, like, very scary. People were close to JonBenet and other children throughout pageantry. Because it's actually like, the guy who was, like, her photographer for her pageant stuff ends up being, like, a prolific pedophile. Like, he has wild imagery out the wazoo. So there's that whole segment of things. There was this guy named Gary Oliva who, like early days, was said to have confess to killing JonBenet. And listen, people want to say that Patsy's handwriting is, like, a close. And again, she's the only one that couldn't be excluded. But, like, I saw this dude's hand, like, Gary's handwriting, and it's, like, scary close to the ransom note. There's another guy named John Mar. He Confessed to killing Jean Bonit, too.

[Unknown Speaker]

I remember those headlines.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Like, that's, that's what I remember because I remember thinking when I was younger that it got solved.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Like, oh, my God, this could be it.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And it was, it was huge. I remember being so huge because he was like living out of the country at the time. And here's the thing. I like bits and pieces from the headlines from, like, what I was seeing because we were a little bit older at that time. But I never knew the full story about John Marc Karp until I saw the Netflix doc that's coming out November 25th. And we actually got early screeners. Like, how they got to him was wild. And like, I, I know I've said this a thousand times. People are going to get tired of me saying it. Like, when you're deep in a case, like, I could point to, you think there's going to be like one person who looks so good for it. But then I'm like, I could tell you stories of like five people, 10 people who, if I only told you.

[Unknown Speaker]

About them, you'd be 100% behind that.

[Ashley Flowers]

That's how it is. Like, that's how it is with like, Santa, with her, like, pageant photographer with John Mar. Like, they go in deep and it's, it is, is so interesting. It's stuff I never knew. I don't actually want to, like, spoil all of that because, like, the Netflix dog is going to be out really close to when we're releasing this. So I encourage everyone to just like, go watch that for yourselves. And I mean, I don't want to. We were already here. We've already been here for so long. I don't want to spend too much time because at the end of the day, we also know that no one's DNA has matched the profile they have. Not even the pedestrian John Mark Carr.

[Unknown Speaker]

Santa.

[Ashley Flowers]

Santa, like, not even the 200 people I told you. They compared DNA to whoever this was, their ghost. And without a name and a face to associate with the crime, it has left a lot of room for old rumors to maybe, like, surface again. Or at least like, there's rumble underneath. And those rumblings got very loud in 2013 when the Daily Camera started reporting that years after the grand jury convened. Remember the grand jury back in 1999? Okay, yes. So we're in 2013. They start saying, like, maybe things weren't as they seemed.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Ashley Flowers]

Nobody does selling better than Shopify. Home of the number one checkout on the planet. The Shop Pay feature even boosts conversions up to 50%. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout top brands like all birds use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial [e-mail] podcast free. All lowercase go to shopify.com podcast free to upgrade your selling today all right, so jurors confirmed to the Daily Camera that there was actually an indictment that came out of those proceedings back in 1999. So here's how this came about. A reporter named Charlie Brennan and the Reporters Committee for Freedom of Press filed a lawsuit to have the documents from the proceeding unsealed. They had been sealed like most grand jury things like since 1999, okay, so when that happens, there are 18 pages that get sent to a judge to review to see which ones could be released and what needed to stay sealed to protect like what a grand jury is. And in total, four of those 18 pages were released to the public.

[Unknown Speaker]

Count seven on or about December 25 and December 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime crime knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death. As to count seven, accessory to a crime, a true bill signature redacted no true bill count 4A on or between December 25 and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsay Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsay, a child under the age of 16. As to count four, a child abuse resulting in death, a true bill signature redacted no true bill count 4A. On or between December 25 and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, Patricia Paul Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of Jean Bonet Ramsay, a child under the age of 16. As to count 4A, child abuse resulting in death, a true bill. Signature redacted. Count seven. On or about December 25 and December 26, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, Patricia P.A. ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death. Asked Account 7 Accessory to a crime. A true bill. Signature redacted. No true bill.

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know what the other counts were or why they weren't under sealed.

[Unknown Speaker]

But whoa, like, I mean, how did the DA get away with saying that they didn't get an indictment?

[Ashley Flowers]

Because he didn't say that. What he said it's important because like.

[Unknown Speaker]

It, the wording is specific on this side.

[Ashley Flowers]

It is here. So he said, quote, the Boulder grand jury has completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed. Filed. The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well, bringing to bear all of their legal powers, life experiences and shrewdness. Yet I must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's careful wording like he was going to say he spoke, stopped himself, and this became a legal dust up because some said by law he was required to sign the indictment. And then if he wanted to move to dismiss the charges, he could have, but just not signing them wasn't a thing he should have been able to do. Now, other analysts say that the law was more ambiguous. I don't know. I don't know if your head's hurting, but mine is like. And listen, the burden of proof to indict versus convict is like completely different, mad different. So indicting just means like, hey, there's like the abundance of evidence says that something probably happened, but when you go to trial, you have to be, you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Have to prove that it actually did.

[Ashley Flowers]

Buttoned up beyond a reasonable doubt. So I get an indictment that doesn't necessarily lead to a trial, but like other things in this case, it is the way that it was handled that just feels so shady. So after this comes out, the Internet enters their Burke era. And here is where I like, I do roll my eyes a little bit, you guys, like, just because, like it cannot be everyone. I feel like it can't be. It can't be mom did it like because of a wedding accident and dad did it because like she's getting molested and Burke did it because she ate the pint. Like it cannot be all of the things, things it can't be Santa and a foreign faction and John Mark Carr. Like, it feels a little like the world kind of just like latches onto a theory for a while and if that doesn't go anywhere or they get bored, they like pick a new thing. But it's not things like all of these are real people who I say again, cannot all be guilty or all murdering her. So I don't think we have the right to say that we know what happened when we just straight up do not know what happened. But at this point in our story, like the world is coming for Burke and maybe I think a small part of it like that at least like spawns this. This isn't like a brand new idea, but like the way the certain indictments that they did release those counts, they were ones about assisting, about placing her in harm's way, like not actually indicting you for murder yourself. And so I think it gets people being like, okay, well if it wasn't them, like who would they be assisting? Who would they be protecting? And the only other person that we know of in that home was her nine year old brother. And this reaches like peak crazy in 2016 when two things happen. One, Burke goes on Dr. Phil and two, CBS releases this like ridiculous special reinvestigating the case. Do you remember that?

[Unknown Speaker]

I remember both of these things, yes.

[Ashley Flowers]

So like, I hate to ruin TV for everyone. They legit did zero reinvestigating. It was basically just like one of the books that had been written forever ago just like rehashed. They were all just like sitting around a table getting paid. But they say that in this like reinvestigation they have this like revolutionary theory that Burke was up that night eating pineapple. JonBenet tried to maybe like eat some. He got mad, whacked her in the head with the flashlight. And then like everything was staged to cover up for him.

[Unknown Speaker]

The pineapple we're finally at.

[Ashley Flowers]

We're at pineapple. We're at the pineapple. Okay, so we know there's pineapple in her stomach. That cannot be explained by any version of any events that we've gotten.

[Unknown Speaker]

Every single story does not include pineapple.

[Ashley Flowers]

Agree. I could spiral four days here because without a doubt, there is more to what happened that night that we just do not like. This is the one thing I can point to to be, like, we don't have the full story right now. It could be that she just got up and got it herself or that someone else gave it to her. It could be that someone in the house. That could be someone in the house. It could be someone not in the house. But she did not go right to bed and then die. Like she ate pineapple.

[Unknown Speaker]

Pineapple.

[Ashley Flowers]

We can all agree on that. So there is a bowl of what looks like pineapple and condensed milk next to a glass of tea on the table that was photographed by police, like, at the house that day. Like when they were processing the scene. When they fingerprint these things, it's Patsy and Burke's prints on the bowl and Burke's prints on the team. Neither claims to have gotten, like, gotten that out or eaten it that night. Patsy suggests that maybe when they had everyone over, like, someone got that out, like, the morning of. Because she doesn't know where it came from. I, like, I don't know why. Like, this is, like, stuff in their home. Like, I don't get too hung up on Patsy's prints being on a bowl maybe. Unless their housekeeper put everything away. But I think about unloading the dishwasher.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Or getting something out for Burke.

[Ashley Flowers]

So we see this in an image. We think that, okay, it could be the pineapple sheet. It also might not be the pineapple she. You know what I mean?

[Unknown Speaker]

It also could just be someone else's pineapple.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And then we still don't know where the pineapple in her stomach came from. But there's also a Maglite found on the counter in the house, which, it's been theorized that it could be the murder weapon, but there's like zero forensic evidence on that Maglite to actually support that it's the murder weapon. No one knows why the light was taken out. No one knows where it came from. They don't even know if it was the Ramses at all. But in the CBS thing, they are sure that Burke hit JonBenet with this flashlight or some flashlight. And it must be true because they show another nine year old.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you remember this kid hitting a watermelon with it? It's is.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, it's, like, awful. It's 10 out of 10 detective in here, guys. So that's going to come out in 2016. Before that comes out, John Ramsey gets a call. He has a new lawyer. By this point, he has cozied up with a guy they become. Or at least he's, like, with him legally for a long time. His name is Lin Wood. He's also another fun Google, if you have a minute. Lynn has been representing John as John and Patsy. And, like, the family has been, like, suing the tabloids who publish really defamatory things about the family. Well, Lyn wood knows Phil McGraw, aka Dr. Phil. And so Dr. Phil, supposedly, according to John, like, gives them a call and is like, hey, heads up, cbs, the network that I'm on, is about to do this show where they take aim at Burke. Like, you should. You, Burke should come on my show and, like, say your piece. And Burke does. And the world just eats that kid alive.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. I remember watching this and it almost being painful to watch and then watching what happens after it was, like, even worse. And I feel bad empathy for him because, like, he's already going through a lot in his life. And then to be on camera, it changes so much of, like, who you are, how you react, like, what you say.

[Ashley Flowers]

And he didn't like. And keep in mind, he didn't grow up on camera.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, he was like, sequestered is, like, the best word I can think of. Like, we didn't see Burke in tabloids. We didn't see Burke on the news.

[Ashley Flowers]

Jon said that something they were really intentional about. They wanted him to try and, like as much of a normal life as they could so they would really protect him. They moved to Atlanta for a while. They end up moving from Atlanta back to Charlevoix. So he, like, grows up in this, like, small Michigan town, and so he's not used to a camera. Like, it does. It comes off awkward. It comes off weird. It's a little uncomfortable. But, like, pick any number of reasons why that is. And there's been, like, theorizing out the wazoo. But, like, someone's not guilty of something because they smile too much. Like, I'm sorry.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I'm sure the way that we saw, like, John and Patsy prep for their interviews, I'm sure there was some prep here. And, like, listen, Dr. Phil was, like, throwing softballs. Like, that's the one thing I will say. And Burke got his point. Across, like, he says he doesn't know what happened to his sister. He certainly wasn't involved. He said his parents were good parents and that this is all a media circus that has, like, kind of ruined his fan. So there's, like, so many things that I'm just. Like, this interview means nothing. He's doing the best he can. But then he says this one thing that, like, I. I'm like, did I miss? Like, what? Did I hear that right? So he's talking to Dr. Phil, and I, like, I actually just want to play the clip.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed and wanted to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Get this thing out.

Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn't be seen?

I don't remember.

I just remember being downstairs. I remember this toy.

Did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball bat or a flashlight?

This is. This is not a version of any.

[Ashley Flowers]

Story we've heard ever, ever heard. And I asked Jon specifically about this, because in my mind, I'm like, oh, my God. This is like, if Burke is downstairs when all this hap. Like, did he hear something? Did he see something? And I asked John about this, and again, I go back to, like, I know John and Patsy did media training. Like, did they just, like, throw Burke to the wolves? Like, without it? Like. And Dr. Phil says that John's the one that told him this. So I asked John about it, and at first, John. John was like, oh, no. Like, that's. So much has gotten misreported. That's not real. And I said, no, John, like, Dr. Phil says, you told him this? And then Burke responds and agrees and says, yes, I was downstairs.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And John just said, let. Like, I didn't know that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Ashley Flowers]

So I asked him, you know, in our interview, I was like, I know people have talked to Brooke. Like, they had a lot of child psychologists at the time trying to, like, you have to. You have to handle that. Really sensitive. He's nine. Yeah, I know those people were talking to him. But did at any point you and Patsy have conversations with him? And, like, John, like, immediately shut it down. He's like, no, there's no way he did this. And I'm like, actually, that's not what I'm saying. Like, when we were. When we were young, like, we grew up with siblings. I'm like, now there's a world where he's downstairs. Even if he wasn't say that all that was like Dr. Phil weird slip up. There's in my mind things that like.

[Unknown Speaker]

Kids see a relationship and a bond that like siblings have and you don't necessarily like, put the weight in them as a kid.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And like, there are things like I knew about my siblings or like I saw them in a different way than my parents saw them. I saw the way that we interacted with other people differently than my like, also kids are like, attuned to things like we like that you notice so much. Yeah. Especially when like so many people are ignoring you as a kid. Like, you just pick up on a lot that I asked him. I was like, there could be something he knows that he doesn't even know he knows if you've never talked to him in all these years. And John said that like, he's confident that Burke would have told him if there were something. So I mean, I think that you're like, how do you balance that of like trying to do right by your one kid trying to get justice for the other one. And I think what he is trusting that Burke would tell him something if there was something to tell or if he, if, you know, years and years and years down the line, if something comes to him like he's going to come forward, it's his sister. He, he loved her the same way the rest of his family would have. So after that CBS special, so Dr. Phil, then there's a CBS special. Lin Wood represents Burke in a $750 million lawsuit against CBS. In the suit, they lay out what they call the statement of fact. And I will say they do try to correct the record here. So I mean, there's like, when they statement of fact, they like list these different things. And number 29, it says that Burke exercised his right of reasonable response by granting one interview to Dr. Phil McGraw in which he denied any involvement in JonBenet's murder. So I actually think like, there like there was a legal strategy even coming into this because he would have either, I believe, if I'm understanding it right, had to have give statement to CBS in some way like in response to like the claims they were making or have like publicly stated it. And he had never done interviews before.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

So he had to give an interview to someone. And so I think that was part of the reason he came forward when Dr. Phil gave him that call. Like, he needed some statement out there saying, like, he had nothing to do with his system sister's death. Now the other thing is it's number 130 and 131. It says that Burke was not awakened during the night, and Burke did not leave his bedroom during the night. So unless those facts were challenged, which I don't believe they were, because they ended up settling, that kind of becomes the de facto record. So even though we have Burke on Dr. Phil saying he went downstairs, we have this, like, legal document where they're saying that the fact is he didn't wake up and he didn't go downstairs. And on paper, that's, I think, the law. Right. But I wish we could talk to him, ask him.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, because I'm with you. Like, I'm not saying he did anything, but there is just so much that my siblings would do that I would do, that they knew about, that our parents just didn't see. Like, it's. As kids, you kind of live in your own world, like, below the line of sight of your parents. And the certain way.

[Ashley Flowers]

I think if there's something to say that he can say, he'll say it. I know he's met with investigators, like, so it's not like he hasn't even, like, talked to police. He did. He's met with child psychologists. So, yeah. To go all the way back to your question of, like, how do you get to the who? I don't know. So, you know, we shared, when we met with John, like, we shared our information and obviously told him, like, if Burke is open to talking. I know he doesn't do interviews. And John said, you know, he's an adult. If he wants to do it, like, he will. But we haven't heard from him, so I don't know. To get back to your question of, like, how do you get to the who? I think you just start. You've got to just start chipping away at this case. I think that's what certainly Lou Smit was doing with his work. It's what his family continues to do. Again, I'm going to link to the podcast that I mentioned. I think it's interesting. They kind of go person by person that they were actually, like, going out there and collecting DNA samples from these people, ruling them out one by one, suspects that, like, I had never heard of, and not even just the usuals that I mentioned, like, Santa and Jean Marc Carr, like, Lou left this list behind that people, like, made up of people he thought were worth looking into and in the order he thought that they should be looked into. And so that's what they're working off of. But you I mean, like, you have to wonder if the name of JonBenet's killer is even on.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's even on that list.

[Ashley Flowers]

I know. Or if, like, has. The other question I have is, like, has the DNA led us astray? Because is. There was this thing that recently happened in Colorado that has me, like, all kinds of nervous for this case. So in 2023, it came to light that an analyst at the CBI lab, this woman named Yvonne Missy woods, she was manipulating the DNA testing process like this. This investigation is still ongoing as of this recording in November 2024. So far, they have found that she omitted material facts in official criminal justice records and tampered with DNA testing by altering or omitting some test results from the case file. So far, they haven't found any evidence that she falsified any DNA matches. Like, thank God. So far. But that is all from cases that she worked between 2008 and 2023. Now they have to go back and look at paper records from 1994 to 2008.

[Unknown Speaker]

So she was there the whole time of Jean Vae's case?

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. And listen, not all of the DNA testing was done by, like, state agencies. Like, the Long Dong stuff came from Bodie, but there was definitely some pretty critical work that came out of the crime lab in the state, which has me shook because, like, if this is a DNA case, like Lou Smith and the Ramseys say, what do we do if the DNA was wrong?

[Unknown Speaker]

This is not the answer that anyone wants to hear. But you have to start all over. You have to.

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't know if you can. Now. Okay, here's two things. So I'll say I asked John about this, and he says that he's been told by, like, the people who. Who give him information, but he's been told that confidently, Missy woods didn't work on the Ramsey case. Like, so he feels confident that the results have not been skewed by whatever she was doing. I mean, like, in my mind, the investigation is still ongoing. So, like, I don't know. But he. He told me he is confident. He has been told it's not applicable here. Like, we don't have to worry about it. But if we have to start all over, like, the good news is, like, there's even better forms of test. Right. Like, you think about all the genealogy stuff that's being done.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Now, there's no mention of utilizing this technology to assist with the case yet. And John Ramsey said in my interview with him that he's afraid because he's trying to find out where the evidence is. Like what can we do now? Right? Like starting over or not starting over. Like there's just new testing that needs to be done.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

And he doesn't. Can't get a straight answer. He says about if the evidence is secure, where it is. So he doesn't know. Like his biggest fear is maybe someone lost it or maybe they're protecting someone.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hashtag protectboulder.

[Ashley Flowers]

I don't think anyone's looking out for Boulder anymore, but everyone says that they're committed to looking out for JonBenet. I'll say that there was a cold case review. This team was brought in in like recently, like 2023. They're said to have made recommendations about how to move the case forward. What those were, if they're being acted on. Unclear to me. We did. Like I said, we reached out to the DA's office and the Boulder PD. Surprise. I've had nothing juicy from them, so obviously they declined my offer. But they did give us statements. So the DA's office PIO said, quote, the murder of JonBenet Ramsey was a tragedy. Our office has successfully prosecuted cold case homicides and many other murder cases. Our office appreciates the continued collaboration with CDPs, CBI, the FBI and the Boulder Police Department. As with any cold case homicide, the overarching goal is to look at the facts and evidence with fresh eyes and an open mind. Armed with the latest developments in forensic science, the presentation to the cold case review team generated helpful recommendations. Our office is continuing to work with federal, state and local agencies to make progress on this tragic case. End quote. Boulder PD gave us this statement. The killing of Jean Benet was an unspeakable crime and this tragedy has never left our hearts, boulder Police Chief Steve Redfern said. We are committed to following up on every lead and we are continuing to work with DNA experts and our law enforcement partners around the country. Until this tragic case is sold, this investigation will always be a priority for the Boulder Police Department. Because this is an open and ongoing investigation, the Boulder Police Department is unable to give any interviews or comment on specific aspects of this crime. We continue to investigate and encourage anyone with information to contact detectives at boulders most wantedoldercolorado.gov or by calling the Boulder Police tip line at three zero. As for John Ramsey, he says that he is fighting for his daughter in the last few years. He recently started doing more interviews and his eldest son, John Andrew, has even gotten really involved as well. And they're both featured in the new documentary on Netflix, they are pushing for authorities to do more testing. They've met with Othram Labs themselves. They feel that genealogy could be the thing that this case has been waiting for, if the evidence is still there. And John hasn't gotten an answer about that yet. And that is where he asks for crime Junkie's help. Like, I think it is something that no matter where you come out on this case, like, this is something we can all get behind because there is unknown DNA there, and we have to find out who that belongs to because there is no world where anyone could be prosecuted in this case without that DNA being explained. Now, John also says that he encourages people to write to their congressmen about something called the Victims Families Rights Act. It was signed into law federally by Joe Biden in 2021, but John says that it needs to be passed in each state. And what this would do is it would allow families of loved ones to request a federal review of their loved one's case after it's been cold for three years. And this is something that he says that he wishes he would have had. So, I mean, I asked him if he's going to be pushing for this in Colorado. He's moved out of state now, but again, the case is still there. But he says that he doesn't have connections in Colorado anymore. Now, John says that he has heard that they're just waiting for him to die so that this case will go away. But if I believe one thing about this case, it's that it's not going away anytime soon. We are not going away. So if you have made it to the end, thank you. Thank you for being a crime junkie. Being a crime junkie means that you're into more than just the headlines. And there is still so much more to this case. I would encourage you to go check out the Netflix documentary. It's dropping on November 25, 2020. It is called Cold Case who Killed JonBenet? And you can go right now to our YouTube if you're listening. You could watch this episode or you can go check out the interview that I have with John Ramsey. It's available right now. Did I. I didn't tell you? So when I was. When I was there for the interview. Yeah, I. I'm walking back from dinner to my hotel and I, like, I see this restaurant and I'm like, wait, Pasta J's. Pasta. Why do I know pasta J's?

[Unknown Speaker]

What?

[Ashley Flowers]

Shut up. I'm like, why do I know pasta J's? And I'm like, oh, my God, Ashley, you've been living in the Jabanay Ramsey case.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, that's where they had dinner on Christmas Eve.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah, they're friends with Pasta J. And I was like, that's so strange. And so I'm like, googling. I'm like, I didn't know it was a franchise. It's not a franchise. It's literally in Boulder and then where Jody lives. And so the next day, he said something about, I can't remember what it was, but he's like, oh, yeah, my friend owns Pasta J's. And I was like, yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. I saw it last night. And he's like, oh, yeah. And by the way, Mike Bynum owns the hotel that you were staying. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? There's a case I never thought I'd cover, a case that's become one of the most infamous unsolved mysteries in history, and that's the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. I'm Ashley Flowers, host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. And although this case is the most requested by my listeners, I resist it because what more was there to say? But all that has changed. I recently sat down with JonBenet's father, Jon Ramsey, for an exclusive interview like he has never done before. And now I'm diving deep into this haunting case and sharing my exclusive with you, too. Listen to Our episode on JonBenet Ramsay on crime Junkie, wherever you get your podcasts. And catch my exclusive interview with John Ramsey on the Crime Junkie YouTube channel. Now.