Britt Prawat (7:11)

Were any of them able to describe the driver?

Ashley Flowers (7:14)

Yes, they were, and not any better under hypnosis. But like, in their initial statements, they all give this similar ish description. One witness who was driving past says this guy had like this full kind of shaggy beard. Another describes this guy as, quote, unquote, grubby, whatever that means to that person. And James comes in with the most detailed description, describing this man as approximately 30 years old. He's a white guy, 5, 10 to 6ft tall. He said he had a husky build, maybe if you had to guess, 175 to 180, with a trimmed beard, brown hair, and wearing a brown and white checkered shirt and army type khaki pants. Although as detailed as that was, I feel like it's worth noting that James story changes some over time. Like, for instance, he gives two statements shortly after Kristen went missing. And the first, he mentions seeing the feet under the van like someone else was on the other side. But then in the second one, he doesn't mention any other person. And then the story he tells years later when he participated in an episode of the series Cold valley, It changes, like, more drastically, I think, at that point in 2018, he says that he was driving past, and he spotted this brown van. But now Kristin wasn't standing up. She was laying down in the grass next to her bike as though she had been hit. And then he says he sees the driver, the one man getting out of the van, Walking back towards where Kristen was laying, and this dude was smiling.

Britt Prawat (8:44)

And there's no mention of any of these details before?

Ashley Flowers (8:49)

No. And our team even tried reaching out to James, but we couldn't get through. So I kind of wonder if what he saw in 81 morphed into something more sinister in his mind, especially after July 4th, when people finally realized what happened to Kristen after she went missing. A little over a week after witnesses spotted Kristin on the side of the road with that bearded man and brown van, this guy who is spending his fourth of July fishing on the snake river, Spots a black garbage bag in the water near the riverbank. And it's unusual enough that curiosity gets the best of him, and he looks inside, and that's when he sees parts of Kristen David. And then downstream, there is another one of these same black trash bags. So he calls police, who, over the course of that evening and the next morning, collect photography. Five bags in total, containing parts of Kristen's new dismembered body, Though, according to an article in the south idaho press, it would take five days for them to confirm her identity officially. Now, there was very little evidence to work with when they removed each part, one by one, from the bags. I mean, they couldn't tell exactly when she had been killed or how long she'd been in the water. But detective Jackie Nichols with the osoten county sheriff's office Told us that investigators believe she had likely died either after the day she went missing or very shortly after. Kristin's body showed signs of skin slippage, which is like a natural part of decomposition, but it is slowed down When a body is in the water. So according to my research, it can take as little as 24 hours for this to happen After a body is placed in water, Although there are, like, a ton of different factors that can impact this. So the working theory is that she was killed and then dumped relatively quickly. And then what probably happened is the bags sank to the bottom of the river before surfacing and then being discovered on the 4th and all of that to say investigators then were left with little hope of collecting any biological evidence. And none of her personal effects, like jewelry or anything else, was found on her body either. And it's interesting. I do see a note in the files that we have seen that says she had a wristwatch that she was known to wear and that that watch was located, but I'm not sure where it was found. Like, was it with her remains, or did they go back to her apartment or something and find it there? I don't know. But there was one clue left behind by whoever wrapped Kristen and put her in those bags. Each body part was wrapped in newspapers, and they realized that the newspapers were from four different issues of the Lewiston Mourning Tribune. They were dated April 7, April 17, April 19, and April 24, which, to me, is interesting, because it's not like someone just found one random paper. Like, it really is more of a series of papers, as though the killer used the ones that had been delivered.

Britt Prawat (11:51)

To their home, whatever was around.

Ashley Flowers (11:53)

Right. And sure, there are thousands of other scenarios where these could have been picked up or found or whatever, but, I mean, think about it. This person had to have somewhere to go to dismember Kristen in the first place. They're gonna go somewhere that they know, somewhere that's private, that they are familiar with and feel comfortable in.

Britt Prawat (12:10)

Well, and so familiar that they may get the daily paper there.

Ashley Flowers (12:13)

That's my thinking. Because nothing about this feels sloppy or rushed. This person took their time to do exactly what it is they wanted to do to her. I mean, her dismemberment is described as almost surgical. Like whoever did this either has medical.

Britt Prawat (12:31)

Knowledge or has done this before.

Ashley Flowers (12:33)

Exactly. And there were also signs of mutilation on her body and some sort of muscle or tissue in her mouth.

Britt Prawat (12:43)

Do we know anything about her cause.

Ashley Flowers (12:44)

Of death so transparently? Yes. So we obtained some of Kristin's files through a FOIA request, and there is documentation of her cause of death and other injuries she sustained. But Detective Nichols has asked that we don't publicize that information. While she isn't the lead investigator on Kristen's case, she has done a lot of work on it, and she thinks that it would be best not to get into that in detail. And then we couldn't get in contact with the actual lead investigator at the FBI, and their office wasn't willing to answer any of our questions. So just out of respect for Detective Nichols requests, we're not going to get into that. But to answer your question, yes, we know and investigators do know. And here's something I can tell you that I don't think has been reported before and something that I think could be a hallmark of her killer's mo.

Britt Prawat (13:34)

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Ashley Flowers (14:39)

I have a house with a lot of windows. Kind of feels like a fishbowl sometimes. So at night, leave it to me, the crime junkie, to run around my house methodically closing all the blinds. Because you just never know who might be trying to take a peek in when you can't see out. And if you don't have quick and easy blinds to help enclose your fortress of solitude, blinds.com to the rescue. No creepy salespeople coming into your house. No outrageous prices. Just a super simple process you can do entirely online. You get a free virtual consultation with one of their design experts on your schedule. They'll even send free samples right to your door. Whether you're into DIY or want them to handle the installation. Blinds.com makes it easy. So if your windows are looking a little too exposed, go to blinds.com and get them covered. Right now, blinds.com is giving our listeners an exclusive $50 off when you spend $500 or more. Just use code crimejunkie at checkout. Limited time Offer rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for details. I told you they discovered five different bags in the Snake River. They found her head, her torso, both arms, some of them were double bagged. And then her left leg and hips and buttocks were found all connected, but not in a bag. Now, the upper part of her right thigh was also recovered, but I can't tell from the reports if that was in a bag or not. But what I'm getting at is when all is said and done, when the whole shore had been searched and investigators were ready to pack everything up, the rest of her right leg, so we're talking everything from the knee down was never found, never recovered. What, could searchers have just missed it? Possibly. I mean, there's one report I saw in the case file that briefly mentions seeing a similar looking black trash bag floating, like, way out in the middle of the river. And since the waters were choppy, no one could get to it before it disappeared. So maybe that's where her missing leg ended up. But also, I don't see any reports of that turning up later or being found by anyone else. And so I can't help but wonder, could the killer have kept it? And you'll see why I asked that question when a little bit later. So it's not just me being like wild crime monkey theories. It really is the question of could this be part of his M.O. and that remains to be seen. So despite a thorough search of the shoreline, nothing else is recovered. And there's still the question of where her body went into the river. And detectives here are in luck because they're soon contacted by a woman who says that she and a couple of others found two separate stains on of what looked like blood on the railing of a bridge a few miles upstream from where Kristen's body was found. So investigators go check it out, and the spots are still there. And it may be because of this that investigators start theorizing that Kristen's body was dumped off this bridge into the water below. And then two witnesses even come forward later stating that they saw what looked like a dark van parked on that bridge, possibly on the same day that Kristen went missing. Now, these witnesses didn't actually see anything suspicious. They just said that the driver of the van sort of matched the description that they've been working with. And the guy didn't look happy that someone had seen them. But it's not like this witness actually saw this person throwing bags over the railing. And I could talk to you about who saw the spots and when they saw them and go around in circles, but I'm not going to build you up only to bring you down, because samples of that may be blood are collected later Tested, and it's determined to not even be blood at all. It doesn't mean that someone didn't still use that bridge to put the bags in the water. Doesn't mean it didn't happen on a tight timeline. Right, but this doesn't offer any kind of proof. Like, they're right where they were before.

Britt Prawat (18:31)

Did they ever find her bike or pieces of her bike or anything?

Ashley Flowers (18:35)

No, not her bike, not her clothes, not even some of the personal items that detectives learned. She would have most likely have had on her, like her checkbook and her coin purse.

Britt Prawat (18:45)

When you say coin purse and I'm thinking of a serial killer, it feels like one of those things that he would keep as, like, a trophy or souvenir. There's, like, a difference, right?

Ashley Flowers (18:52)

It depends on what he would have done with it. If I remember correctly, like, trophies, I believe, are the kinds of things that killers would give to someone else. They can see them wearing it or holding it. Like, that's what they get off on. Souvenirs they kind of just keep tucked away.

Britt Prawat (19:05)

Okay, but still, I could see him keeping something little, like a coin purse or a checkbook, but something big, like her bike, I feel like that would be hard to, like, hide away. It would be, like, noticeable.

Ashley Flowers (19:17)

I know in my mind, like, throwing it in the river would have been easy, but, I mean, unless they totally just missed it, like, they searched that river, it's not there. Which makes me come back to the idea that it could be this guy's home or something like that. Wherever he did the dismemberment, like, did he have a place that he could also store the bike to keep that out of sight?

Britt Prawat (19:37)

Do you think there's a chance that he could have done everything in, like, the back of his van? Like, this van keeps, like, popping up in these, like, sightings and stuff.

Ashley Flowers (19:46)

So it's a possibility. And actually, Detective Nichols said something interesting that might play into this. So she said that whoever dismembered Kristen had some struggles with her legs. Like, one of her upper thighs, either the right or the left. I'm not sure which one. Had some cuts that indicate that her killer had trouble dismembering her, like I said. So to kind of spell it out for you, Kristen essentially was taken apart at the joints, almost like a hunter would break down an animal. So maybe he's in an area where, when you have a limb as big as a leg, like, you have issues. Right. That's totally possible.

Britt Prawat (20:21)

Like, if you're in a van.

Ashley Flowers (20:23)

Right. Or one of the Reasons he might have had trouble is if you think about a hunter who's used to animals on humans, the hip joint is higher than you might think, which would indicate.

Britt Prawat (20:36)

A hunter versus someone with, like, medical knowledge, knowledge of the human anatomy. Like, that's not a mistake that they would make. They would know that it sits higher.

Ashley Flowers (20:44)

Right. So again, is he, like, cramped for space or did he not know where to go in at initially? And again, this is just a theory, and I feel like hunters in rural Idaho are a dime a dozen.

Britt Prawat (20:54)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (20:55)

So who knows if it even means anything. But regardless of the killer's background, the search for that van is all the more important. So based on what they know from witness sightings, detectives come up with a list of plates and vehicles that they want to check. I mean, they literally went to the DMV in Oregon, pulled registrations for every Oregon plate, ending with a variety of combinations of the reported numbers. 7, 3, 737-whatever. And then from there they whittled it down to just brown vans, and then they individually followed up on every single one. It was time consuming and difficult and would have been worth it had anything come of it. But unfortunately, check after check, they don't get anything. They don't get any suspects that seem to stick. And even though they do a bunch of searches of nearby houses and sheds and barns, basically anywhere that could hide a very bloody crime scene, that turns up nothing either. They aren't out of things to do yet, though. A composite sketch is created within the first few days of the investigation based on those witness reports. And they're fine, but not any more helpful than the vague descriptions we already have of a white guy with brown hair. But, like, forget what this guy looks like. Who is this guy as a person?

Britt Prawat (22:18)

Like a profile. I love a good profile.

Ashley Flowers (22:20)

This one delivers. I'm assuming it's made by the FBI, though the document doesn't actually say. But we know that they've taken over the case now. And back in the early 80s, local law enforcement agencies were not profiling like that was the feds. So they put together this 20 point psychological profile of this guy. White male, probable age 21 to 28 years. Living alone or with a girlfriend or mother. Mother would dominate family if family is together. Considered intelligent, but is an underachiever, that is. Others think he could do much better than what he does. High school education or better. Number six, probably owns a late model vehicle of which he is proud of. Cruises the area in his vehicle, which side note, we saw that before. Yeah, it was in The Eve Wilkowitz case that we did. Like, I feel like it was a year or so ago at this point for a fan club. And I always wonder where that comes from. Like, what about a crime tells you that someone's into late model cars or has one?

Britt Prawat (23:26)

Well, yeah, and if I'm remembering correctly, in Eve we thought that like, maybe that had been connected to like a witness sighting or something. Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (23:34)

But that was a guess. And like here I don't see any witness statements about a car like that. I mean, granted I might not have everything, but I don't know, I'm kind of just wondering if they think certain types of people are drawn to those. And does that say anything about the larger population who owns these, like bau? Call me. I have follow up questions, but let's keep going. So number seven probably has an arrest record or discipline record going back to teen years. The record would be for crimes against persons, that is Assaults, fights, violent type acts. Has a hard time keeping a job as he considers himself better and more knowledgeable than others. Therefore will not follow directions and orders of others. Considers himself superior in intelligence to law enforcement officers. Therefore he will follow the investigation and might leave clues as the investigation progresses. To aid, police might return to the crime scene at later dates to fantasize and relive the situation. Crime scene occurred in one area and an attempt to hide body and evidence made by taking it to another area. All in the general area of where subject lives. We're on to number 10 now. Souvenirs will be kept for fantasizing, which might include body parts, clothing and other personal items victims had at the time. So when you were talking about coin purse. Yes. Possibly.

Britt Prawat (24:54)

When you were talking about the lower part of her leg.

Ashley Flowers (24:56)

Also possibly. This is what I was saying I was obsessed with. Photographs might have been taken of the body to help relive event at later date. Victim will not be known to subject, but was available when situation presented itself. Death probably came quickly to victim. No torture. There might not have been any sexual intercourse before or after death.

Britt Prawat (25:19)

Oh, question. Was the mutilation to Kristen done pre or post mortem?

Ashley Flowers (25:24)

Likely post. According to detective number 14, the incident is psychosexually satisfying to the subject. Although an impersonal event, the victim means nothing to him and he has no remorse over what he did. Subject will have lived in the area for a period of time and will be known to various people in his community. Bite marks or stab wounds commonly made after death. 17 weapon used to cause death will normally be his own as opposed To a weapon of opportunity. Will keep the weapon for a period of time as this fantasy wears off, will kill again and more frequently as time passes, will have fantasized about what he would do to a girl if the situation presented itself. That is premeditated. And when the situation does occur, he conducts himself as he has fantasized. And finally, number 20 might have left the area after the killing, moving to another town and establishing himself job, et cetera, before he will kill again. So who fits this psychological profile? Yeah, there is no one. Perfect fit. But there are a ton of men who have come across investigators radar over the years and there are a few that I want to talk about because I swear I've said this a thousand times. It should be a life rule, but I haven't made it short and sweet. But this is a reoccurring theme where I'll come into a cold case, One where there are no real suspects. It's ice cold and on the surface it looks like there would be no suspects because like no one's talked about any. But then you get to see the files and you dig in and it is the opposite. I am like, how can there be this many people around all the time that look so guilty? Like, they can't all be guilty. So like, what the heck? It has made me start side eyeing every person around me. Like if I died, like what's happening secrets do you have that would come pouring out.

Britt Prawat (27:21)

And like, I mean, I think that's also just life rule number one, right? You never really know anyone, ever.

Ashley Flowers (27:27)

Well, then It's Life Rule 1.1. Like you never really know anyone ever until their life intersects with a criminal investigation. And then there is no hiding unless.

Britt Prawat (27:36)

You have a bad detective.

Ashley Flowers (27:38)

Life rule one, one point. No, no, I'm just kidding. All that to say, even though the Kristen David case has only publicly been linked to the Lewis Clark Valley murders and disappearances, there were plenty of other highly suspicious people that came on law enforcement's radar.

Britt Prawat (27:57)

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Ashley Flowers (30:03)

Okay, the first couple of guys that I want to talk about are ones that made a splash for investigators early on, but then fizzled out pretty quickly. So first was George Williamson, AKA Buzz. Now Buzz came on police's radar because he actually made a report about another guy that he thought could have killed Kristen. Now that other guy gets cleared. But Buzz remained on police's radar. He lived on the same street as where Kristen was going to stay for part of the summer. Plus, he matched both the composite sketches and some points in the psychological profile and was known to be bitter and hateful towards women due to a divorce, divorce and custody battle, according to Detective Nichols. Buzz also claimed to have done some truly horrific stuff like disemboweling people in Vietnam when he was deployed there. He Even had a van, although it was purple and yellow. And mistaking it for being brown when so many people claim to have seen a brown van seems unlikely.

Britt Prawat (31:02)

Yeah, purple and yellow, Quite different.

Ashley Flowers (31:03)

Right? But all of that, like, even though it's suspicious, Detective Nichols told us that the FBI has ruled him out. Ultimately, they determined that a lot of the claims he made about disemboweling people were actually false. Buzz had been in the military, but he had never been deployed to Vietnam. And all those claims of, like, what he did were just, like, one of numerous lies that he told. Detective Nichols said that while, yes, his claims are disturbing, he's also very mentally ill and makes claims all the time that can't be substantiated. Plus, that van he owned, he even sold that by the time Kristen went missing. So, next up, there was Donald White. In an interview with police a few years after Kristen's body was discovered, Donald talks about his friend, this guy named Larry Knopf, who he claims he used to grow marijuana with. Now, these two guys had a huge falling out, after which Don's children allegedly started remembering bouts of saint sexual abuse from Larry and a teenager named Travis. They also claimed to have seen a woman being trapped in the basement of this other family that Larry allegedly knew and spent time with. But before we even go spiraling down this rabbit hole, neither Donald nor Larry were ever really considered legit suspects to begin with. Donald talked a big game, but when it came time to actually verify details from his story, he couldn't. Based on what I have, there isn't a ton of detail around who owned what type of vehicle and who did or didn't get the Lewiston paper. And I think these claims are incredibly concerning. But if those claims could not be verified, like, you know, no, they're there.

Britt Prawat (32:46)

Did they just say Don couldn't verify the claims, or did he actually check with Larry's kids and family to try to see if all this was real?

Ashley Flowers (32:54)

Well, Detective Nichols told us that Don's ramblings were immensely drug fueled. She said. And so after just like, a brief look, they were like, yeah, no, like, this ain't our guy. And they just kind of moved on. So that's Don and Larry. I've spent most of my time digging into someone else, someone who was a blip on the radar. But maybe you'll see why. Like, I just am so invested in a second. Let me set the scene. So I told you early on that investigators searched for a place that might be the crime scene or where the dismemberment happened, right? Cabins, abandoned buildings. They were also searching hotels and motels in the area. Well, shortly after Kristen was found, investigators hear from a housekeeper who works at the Sacagawea Lodge in Lewiston. She tells them that on or around June 30th of 1981, she went in to clean one of the rooms. And inside she found a bloody bath towel and then a bloody hand towel. And I'm not talking about like, ooh, I nicked myself shaving, like, little dabby dabs. She claims that the larger towel was completely soaked, save for like one corner. Now, she couldn't remember exactly which room she found the towel in. And when investigators asked for the towel itself, she's like, oh, I passed it on so it could be washed and then like, presumably re used.

Britt Prawat (34:21)

Yeah, yeah, I was just like, if it's being like that.

Ashley Flowers (34:25)

No, no, this is like a whole side story. But I spent so much time on this. I want, I want all of our listeners, if you work in like the hotel service industry, maintenance, housekeeping, I want to know your most horrific story because I cannot fathom this.

Britt Prawat (34:39)

Feels like it's gotta be up there. But she's so nonchalant about it that.

Ashley Flowers (34:43)

She'S just like, another blood soaked towel. Can't wait for the laundry. I'm gonna start bringing my own towels and sheets and everything to hotel rooms. I'm like terrified now. Yeah, that towel went back into circulation.

Britt Prawat (34:54)

Yeah, okay. Back on track. Sorry.

Ashley Flowers (34:57)

So, okay, so she finds this bloody towel again. She didn't keep it. She sent it off.

Britt Prawat (35:01)

And no one is jotting down the room number. She can't even remember what day it is.

Ashley Flowers (35:06)

No, but that's what I'm saying. Like, I think they see some wild stuff. Like, again, fully blood soaked towel. Like, meh, another day, another dollar, like. And then, you know, police come knocking or she hears about this dismembered body.

Britt Prawat (35:17)

And I was like, huh, I wonder maybe.

Ashley Flowers (35:21)

And I don't even know if it was them, like knocking or, or like her seeing on the news or something that like, started this whole thing. It might have been the fact that more bloodied stuff was found at the same motel.

Britt Prawat (35:33)

Okay, what is going on there, girl?

Ashley Flowers (35:35)

I, like, couldn't tell you. And by the way, this isn't some, like, remote little highway. I affectionately call them murder Motel.

Britt Prawat (35:43)

Which is exactly what I was expecting.

Ashley Flowers (35:44)

This is like a. This is in downtown Lewiston, which is like right by the river. I'm not saying this is like New York City, but it's, it's Like a big hotel.

Britt Prawat (35:52)

People see it all the time. Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (35:54)

Anyways, so also at this hotel, this woman finds blood on a padded suitcase stand when she was cleaning over a week later on July 10th. Luckily, she remembers that it was in room 273. And I don't know if this, like, jogged memories or what. I still don't even know if these are in the same room or different rooms.

Britt Prawat (36:15)

Or would anyone have seen the suitcase stand between June 30 and July 10? Like, could it be from the same incident?

Ashley Flowers (36:23)

I don't know, because I don't know if anyone stayed in that room, like, in between those, or even if they did, did they actually, like, pull that out or did, like, leave it out for housekeeping to see. But police must be at least considering that this is all the same thing and it might be related to Kristen, because one, they search the room, and it yields hair samples that look like they could be from Kristen. And the FBI do tests on those samples. According to Detective Nichols, one hair sample was consistent with Kristen's hair type, and the others were not. But, I mean, we know consistent could mean a lot of things. Things. In the case file, the hair is described as having the, quote, same microscopic individual characteristics. End quote. Like, that's not enough. That's not a DNA comparison. Right. But that's where the hair testing stood as of 1981. Number two, the other thing is, they start looking into the room, and they specifically look at who stayed in that room right before the bloody towel was found on or around June 30th. And they found that on June 29th, the room had been rented to a Pete Madsen. And the registration clerk remembered him somehow. She described him as having collar length, blondish hair, maybe like 59 to 5 11, most tallish and weighing between 160 and 180 pounds. And she also believes she remembers the car he drove as a yellow Oldsmobile. And lucky for police, she even still had his, like, check in paperwork, which included an address that he gave in Emmett, Idaho, almost five hours south of Lewiston, and information on the car that he said he had with him, like, a license plate number. And he even wrote down it was an Oldsmobile, just like the one the clerk thought she saw. Except when they try and look this guy up, that's not real. Police match the license plate number on the registration not to a Pete Madsen, but to a guy named Glenn who lived in Boise. And by the way, Glenn doesn't even drive an Oldsmobile. He drives a Ford. But according to what he told police, like he wasn't even in the state when Kristen's murder took place. He said that he was in California going to a family's wedding and he had left his car behind. So either someone stole it, which I don't really think so because we know it's not a Ford that was there or at least wasn't seen, or someone stole just the plate on it, or this person just made it up.

Britt Prawat (38:51)

Or maybe it's someone who Glenn knows who just so happened to know his license plate number.

Ashley Flowers (38:57)

Yeah, I mean, the possibilities are endless. But with the license plate being a bust, they just decide to focus on the name. And there are a few Pete Madsens that the FBI looks into. There's Peter J, Peter M, Peter L. Now, it's not clear if like any of these are the Pete Madsen, but based on like identifications from driver's license and height and who has connections to where, it seems like the FBI tentatively rules out, and that's their quote, tentatively rules out all of the Pete Matsons. And Jackie couldn't give us any more information on Pete himself. But of all of them, I think they spent the most time, and most is like generous cause it was barely any, but spent the most time on Pete M. Now, when they looked at the address that was on this registration, right. We know the plate number is bogus. The address seems to be bogus too, because this address that was listed for Emmett, Idaho, it doesn't belong to a Pete Madsen. It's registered to someone else. However, this someone else does actually know Pete Madsen, who by the way, drove a late model car, a 1970 Oldsmobile. And I'm just going to read from the FBI report because it's super interesting to me. So this person, quote, advised that Pete Madsen resided with him for approximately three weeks during June 1981. On June 26, 1981, Madsen was either en route to Lewiston, Idaho or was staying with them at their home. I'm redacting the name. Believed that Madsen left his residence to go to Moscow, Idaho around 06:26:81, or 06:27:81, but could not recall the exact date he stated that Madsen presently resides at. He gives his address Moscow, Idaho. Madsen is a student at the University of Idaho, working on his master's degree. And then it goes on from there. So long story short, it seems like this Pete Madsen is a real person, but like, if he is connected at all to me is Still a mystery, though. Again, the FBI says they have tentatively ruled out Pete Madsen, so maybe that's true. But Pete Matson, whoever you are, I would love to know your story.

Britt Prawat (41:16)

Yeah, I don't think there's a world where a bloody suitcase stand thing and bloody towels turns out to be, like, an uninteresting nothing burger of thing in this case.

Ashley Flowers (41:28)

The one thing I'll say is. So Detective Nichols told us that she doesn't necessarily think what was found on the suitcase stand was blood because there is absolutely nothing on the results of the samples that were taken. And she even has some doubts about the housekeeper's story to begin with, because I guess each time she talked to the police, her story just got a little more, like, conveniently in depth. Like, first she doesn't report the bloody towel. Then all of a sudden, there's a bloody towel and then a bloody suitcase stand. And then even later, she said that she saw a man holding a bike on Highway 95. Like, it just seems like there was more to the story every single time. And it's so specific to Kristen that Detective Nichols wonders if maybe she embellished her story still. I can't shake it. Like, it's just, like, I get these, like, little spidey sense things sometimes. But I'm obsessed with this whole Pete thing, and not because this Pete Madsen guy had anything to do with it. Like, everything on that registration seemed to kind of be bogus. Why? Like, was it really someone named Pete Madsen, or did they just pick, like. I mean, they would have had to know that that guy had a friend named Pete Madsen.

Britt Prawat (42:31)

Right? Like, there's, like, so many things that, like, have to fit perfectly together. I know for it to be explained. It seems so fantastical.

Ashley Flowers (42:38)

But I'll tell you, this has nothing to do with anything, but this is, like, one of those crime junkie tangents. So when I got obsessed with this Pete Madsen, I'm like, who is Pete Madsen? Where is he at now?

Britt Prawat (42:47)

Google.

Ashley Flowers (42:48)

Have you. Do you have your phone with you?

Britt Prawat (42:50)

Yes. You need told me to keep it with me today.

Ashley Flowers (42:53)

You need to just Google Pete Madsen.

Britt Prawat (42:56)

Okay? Pete Madsen. Nothing else.

Ashley Flowers (42:59)

Just Google Pete Madsen.

Britt Prawat (43:00)

Okay. Ashley, I watched this documentary.

Ashley Flowers (43:04)

What are the odds?

Britt Prawat (43:06)

So I can't even, like, summarize it, but Peter Madsen has had, like, a submarine, and correct me if I'm wrong, like, this journalist comes on and is, like, interviewing him about the submarine and goes on the submarine for, like, a ride and then doesn't come back.

Ashley Flowers (43:23)

Because Peter Madsen dismembered her.

Britt Prawat (43:25)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (43:26)

So it's not the same Peter Madsen. Like, literally, like, the timelines don't add up. There is no world in which this guy is that guy.

Britt Prawat (43:33)

Right. And, like, the case that I'm talking about with the submarine happened in, like, the, like, 2017, 2018, like, very new, pretty recently.

Ashley Flowers (43:41)

Again, has nothing to do with anything. But what I. When I Google. And the first thing to pop up is this.

Britt Prawat (43:45)

I was like, peter Madsen, murderer, dismember.

Ashley Flowers (43:48)

I was like, what are the. Freaking out? It was so.

Britt Prawat (43:51)

No, that's wild.

Ashley Flowers (43:52)

Odd. But obviously that didn't happen earlier. And Pete Madsen of 1981 was more of a blip on police's radar. They were far more interested in people like Otis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas as they popped onto the radar.

Britt Prawat (44:07)

Oh, what cases haven't they shown up in?

Ashley Flowers (44:10)

Honestly, I need to do an actual episode on them someday because I truly don't know what they have or have not been firmly linked to, with the exception of, like, Adam Walsh. But these dudes were, like, serial confessors.

Britt Prawat (44:22)

I was gonna say do an episode. It would just be a list of.

Ashley Flowers (44:24)

Episodes we've already done.

Britt Prawat (44:26)

Yeah. Crimes that they confess to that we've already covered, and they have nothing to do with, that would be the episode.

Ashley Flowers (44:30)

Especially when you have a case where dismemberment was involved, they tend to show. Always show up, especially around time. But if you know anything about them, I don't think they fit the profile at all. And there's no point in spiraling here because Detective Nichols told us that they, too, have been ruled out. Now, police did spend some time looking into a suspicious butcher, which I was like, huh? Again, I know we said we're looking for someone with medical knowledge, but, like, we talked about a hunter.

Britt Prawat (44:57)

Yeah. And a. A butcher would, like, fit into that sort of, like, knowledge base.

Ashley Flowers (45:02)

Especially when you think about the fact that each body part was wrapped in newspaper. Like, that feels very butcher esque to me.

Britt Prawat (45:09)

Yeah. Like wrapping meat in butcher paper. Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (45:12)

So this guy, his name's Mike Spring, he comes on the scene because In September of 1981, he wrecked his pickup truck, but then left the scene of the accident. And when a state trooper found the wreckage, he found several large knives inside.

Britt Prawat (45:28)

Which, like, might not be suspicious for a butcher or, like, meat cutter.

Ashley Flowers (45:33)

Maybe not. But when they tracked Mike down, they learned that he went by a completely different name. Oh. Jim Blanc. Which turned out to be his real name. So Mike Spring was just an Alias. And I'm not sure what exactly made investigators zero in on him at the time, but when he was asked what he was doing the day that Kristen vanished, he claimed claimed to be out of town. And although there is nothing in the report explicitly stating that his alibi was confirmed, Detective Nichols told us that they must have confirmed it or found some other reason to eliminate him because she said that he was definitely eliminated. And I looked him up because, like, my biggest thing in these is, like, just because something was done a bazillion years ago, if something's still unsolved, maybe, like, go back and check.

Britt Prawat (46:19)

I was gonna say, like, I feel like this is such a situation where it could be like, but did we cross that T? Like, how many times have we said, like, well, they must have been ruled out because we aren't talking about them today. And, like, that hasn't been the case.

Ashley Flowers (46:30)

I've met so many investigators who are working a cold case, and the file leaves something open ended. And I'm like, so how do you know this guy's ruled out? And they're like, oh, well, we just moved on. He like, oh, somebody before me did it. I'm like, yeah, but how? And if you can't say how, like.

Britt Prawat (46:42)

Show your work, right?

Ashley Flowers (46:43)

All that to say. I'm not saying that the FBI has that wrong. I probably don't have a lot, but with most of these people, I'm like, looking up just to see, hey, has anything happened between 1981 and now that would, like, stand out? The only record I could find on this guy was, like, a DUI. So you can see a lot was happening in 1981. Lots of men are coming on their radar for nefarious reasons. But then comes 1982. That's when someone comes on their radar for writing a song.

Britt Prawat (47:15)

Okay, a song feels like a crime junkie first.

Ashley Flowers (47:17)

I know, and I love that I still have firsts with you. Like, I just hate that it's this, but because this song will make your skin crawl. Have you heard the story of the 17 kids that unexpectedly disappeared at exactly 2:17am they say they all got out of bed at the exact same time, ran outside, and never came back. On August 8th, uncover the truth from Zach Krager, the director of Barbarian and the studio that brought you it. And the Conjuring comes a new horror thriller so twisted you'll have to experience it to believe it. Weapons only in theaters and in IMAX Aug 8. Rated R under 17 not admitted without a parent.

Britt Prawat (48:02)

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Ashley Flowers (49:03)

So, in 1982, there is this student at Washington State University who wrote a song called I Don't Want to Go to Jail. And this song had been printed in a program promoting a rugby game. And I have the lyrics, but, like, I hope I'm doing a good job at pretending I'm okay. I'm, like, starting to get really sick and lose my voice. And so if you don't mind, I'm actually. I planned on reading it, but I'm gonna have you read it instead.

Britt Prawat (49:29)

Oh, this is like a proper song. Okay.

Ashley Flowers (49:31)

That they printed.

Britt Prawat (49:32)

Yeah. Okay, stop.

Ashley Flowers (49:33)

I can't.

Britt Prawat (49:34)

Ashley, we've talked about this before. You have me read some of the most horrific things on these episodes. This might take the cake. The cake. I don't want to go to jail. I don't want to go to jail. I met a girl and I really had to know her Only a few ways I could really show her I built a fire and threw her up on top and as I walked away she began to snap, crackle and pop Put her in the bathtub threw in the radio and as I turned away she began to glow had her over for dinner Put glass in her food as she began to choke the blood really spewed Jabbed a knife in her uterine wall now she can't have any children at all Reached down her throat and I pulled out some veins Cracked her skull like an egg and. And poured out her brains. You guys, I'm only, like halfway through.

Ashley Flowers (50:31)

It keeps going.

Britt Prawat (50:32)

I took a fork and stuck it in her eye now she can't laugh. And by God, she can't even cry. I took an axe and nipped off all her toes. I took all 10 of them and stuffed them up her nose. I took barbed wire and wrapped it around her throat. Threw her in the river just to see if she would float.

Ashley Flowers (50:53)

Mm.

Britt Prawat (50:54)

I tied her down and plucked out both of her eyes, Smeared her with honey and left her for the flies. Threw her in the oven, turned it on to broil. And when I opened the door, she was stuck to the coils. Broke both her legs, and I poured out all the marrow. Cut off big hunks of her flesh and fed them to the sparrows. Now I'm in jail, and I love her, oh, so much. I kept her hand so we could keep in touch. And then there's a little note at the bottom that says, repeat as many times as intelligence permits.

Ashley Flowers (51:34)

So the thing is this I. So this guy. Apparently, it wasn't just him that wrote it. He said it was him and a group of his buddies.

Britt Prawat (51:45)

Okay, why. Why write it? And then also, this was published advertising, like, a sports game at the school. What happened here?

Ashley Flowers (51:56)

Yeah, how are you, like, you know, we're just gonna, like, skip over the national anthem. Let's print this instead. Like, the 80s were a lawless time. And I'm not gonna say this guy's name. We looked into him. No criminal record. Detective Nichols says that this was just this dude being a dumb kid.

Britt Prawat (52:13)

A really dumb kid.

Ashley Flowers (52:15)

I agree. I mean, like, how you have to, Like, I don't know. But anyways, this guy is one of the few people who actually, like, picked up the phone and talked to us for this episode. He's like, listen, this was a really stupid thing to do. We did it as a joke when I was, like, drunk with my buddies. And I guess he says that, like, writing rugby songs is some kind of tradition. And normally they're more sexual. Sexual in nature. So I don't know if, like, that was, like, a justification for what is happening on this page, but he, in the end, like, to us, he claimed that he didn't even know who Kristen David was. And by the way, that even though this came on police's radar, I know it did. They never actually spoke to him, so they must not have taken this very seriously. Now, even though they never questioned him, there was a women's rights group who wrote an article in the paper basically calling him out for all of this.

Britt Prawat (53:06)

Okay, but I'm kind of stuck on the fact that police never even so much as talk to this guy, like, that seems kind of bonkers.

Ashley Flowers (53:14)

I know. He. He even claims so. I mean, he told us he regrets writing the song, but he says that he didn't even know that his name had been brought up because, I mean, that's how much. It's not like they asked around about him or anything. Like, it never even made it back to him that this song made it to police about this crime. But, like, I can't help but see a lot of parallels in this song to the FBI profile, to what we know about the crime scene.

Britt Prawat (53:37)

I feel like you. I hope you heard it while I was reading the lyrics. Like, there are, like, very direct parallels, right?

Ashley Flowers (53:43)

And, like, sure, okay. The FBI says that he didn't do anything. You know, he doesn't have a criminal record. When we look it up now, all fine and good, but, like, you know, my question is, like, who are these people he wrote it with?

Britt Prawat (53:54)

Like, right.

Ashley Flowers (53:55)

I bet they would fit square into this profile, too. I have a lot of questions still about this, but I seem to be the only one. Now, there are more people like this kid who pop up for weird reasons, but who are either deemed not even worth looking into or who quickly get ruled out. I mean, the case file is full of them. But there is one guy who Detective Nichols is still suspicious of all these years later. A man named Harry Hantman. Harry was originally arrested for the sexual assault and murder of a young girl in 1968, but he escaped the facility that he was being held at and remained on the run for years. And he lived in a remote cabin in Hells Canyon, Oregon, which is, like, two hours from Lewiston, Idaho. Now, when he was on the loose, they ended up finding out that he committed several violent crimes in the area, including abducting a woman. And then he finally gets rearrested in 1993. Like, he was on the run for a long time. So Detective Nichols has always wondered if he could have abducted Kristen, taken her to his remote cabin hours away from Lewiston, killed her, and dismembered her there. Detective Nichols even says that Harry was somewhat of a career student. Like, he would go to various colleges and take classes when he could, presumably even while he was in hiding. So it's possible that he could have gone to the University of Idaho where he saw Kristen. We also know that he was a big game hunter and previously had driven vans, although it's still unknown if he actually drove a brown van at the time of Kristen's disappearance. And unfortunately, he's not around to even ask anymore. As Much as Detective Nichols was suspicious of him, he died by suicide in 1994.

Britt Prawat (55:41)

So I have to ask, because it's kind of the guy who brought us here. Does Lance Voss ever show up in any of Kristen's case files?

Ashley Flowers (55:50)

So that's what's so interesting to me. No, Lance, if you didn't listen to last week, he is this guy that everyone talks about in connection with a lot of the crimes that were happening in this area. Disappearances, murders, which is like Kristen gets.

Britt Prawat (56:03)

Lumped into in a lot of them.

Ashley Flowers (56:05)

He is not mentioned once in what I've seen, which really, at least for me, confirms that she's probably not related to the other murders and disappearances in the Valley. But for some reason, like you said, she keeps getting lumped in. And I think that can cause real harm. You know, like maybe someone hasn't come forward with information because the public has tunnel vision. Or the public thinks like, oh, police must be thinking this is right. They don't think necessarily that he did anything to Kristen. But that is not to say that her case isn't connected to others. Maybe we're just looking at the wrong suspect. Dismemberment is a very specific method. What was done to her body in death was specific. And this does not feel like something that just happened as a one off out of the blue. There are other dismemberment cases in the Pacific Northwest area around this time frame. But what if one part of the profile that's wrong is the part about this guy being local? And I know there was a part in the profile that suggests, like, maybe he like, like knew the area for a little bit. Like, what I think is, like, what if he was local for a minute, say, like stationed nearby, but he moved around? Because recently I've been looking into a former military man. His specific job in the military was as a medical lab specialist. And it seems like wherever this guy traveled, dismembered women showed up. Colorado, South Carolina, Idaho, Wisconsin, Illinois, Georgia. Dismembered with precision. Plastic bags often left around water. Not always specific ways in which the women were killed before they were dismembered. I'm not going to go into detail on the other cases because I can't say 100% that they are all connected or connected to this man yet. But I find it very interesting that this happy looking family man on Facebook in 2025 was actually charged with murder on a military base in his early years. While stationed overseas, he got off on a technicality and continued to serve and be transferred all over the country. And by the way, if you look this guy up the way I've been looking up other people to, like, look at his criminal record, there is not one that pops up, which. That's the part I can't wrap my head around. I don't know why none of this is showing up, even though I know other agencies have talked to him. And also, I found it really interesting that years down the line, his son was later convicted of a brutal murder, and he had some choice things to say about his dad and his upbringing. And listen, I know I am being vague, but it is because I can't say much yet. I usually don't bring all of our crime junkies in until way later in the investigation, but I actually want to try something new. You guys have proven to be an invaluable resource. And all of your eyes and ears and brains combined is better than months of my own heads down researching alone, which I am still not stopping. But here's what I need. I'm looking for more cases that could fit into a similar movie. Cases that happened in the 70s, 80s, 90s, maybe in the early 2000s. We're looking for murdered women who were dismembered, bound in trash bags, and whose bodies might have showed signs of mutilation. Specifically, cases where body parts were cut off in addition to the dismemberment. Or cases where, even after the remains of the victims were recovered, parts of the limb or part of the victim was still missing. The case you're thinking of might just fit some or even all of what I mentioned. But if you know of one in your area that is close to what I said, please email tipsodiochuck.com There is a very real possibility that Kristen's case isn't connected to the military man I'm looking into. But whoever killed her, I have to believe that he did it before or after. And whether Kristin is connected or not, people are looking into her case. Detective Nichols told us that testing led by the FBI continues to this day, especially on those newspapers. And they wouldn't hate a helpful tip to nudge their investigation along. So if you know something specifically about Kristen's murder or someone you think might be worth looking into, reach out to the FBI office in Salt Lake City. Remember the profile. He would have been young. Sounds like maybe a bit of a narcissist. And there are likely other murders that have popped up wherever he goes. Maybe he owned a late model vehicle. Maybe he has or had a brown van. Maybe he let something slip and you're remembering it now as I'm talking. If that's you, reach out to the FBI and let us know too. This is a story we're actively following and reporting, so we would love to hear from you again. That is tipsoudiochuck.com and we'll have the FBI's contact info in the episode notes. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

Britt Prawat (61:24)

And you can follow us on Instagram rimejunkiepodcast.

Ashley Flowers (61:27)

And we're going to be back next week with a brand new episode, but we have some good for you, so stick around for the good segment. All right, Brit, we've had quite the month, lots of content. I am ready for a little bit of good news.

Britt Prawat (62:02)

You've got it.

Ashley Flowers (62:03)

Oh, this one looks long.

Britt Prawat (62:05)

It's. It's a good one, I think.

Ashley Flowers (62:06)

Okay, I'm excited.

Britt Prawat (62:07)

Hi, Brit and Ashley. My name is Lysandra and I just started binging Crime Junkie four weeks ago. I'm almost done.

Ashley Flowers (62:14)

Oh, welcome.

Britt Prawat (62:15)

And I need to join the fan club for more episodes. Yes, you, you do. And yesterday you could have saved my life. I'm 18 years old and an avid user of social media. Like many other teenagers, I met a guy, I'll refer to him as Jerry, on a dating app a few weeks ago and we hit it off. Jerry was a year older than me, lives in the same city, and even shared a common major for college communications. He asked to meet me at a bar and said he'd be a few minutes late because of a snowstorm. I'm from Canada, so our legal drinking age is younger. I sat there for about a half hour until he texted that his car had spun out but he would be there asap. I'd been sitting at the bar waiting for him since the bar restaurant wouldn't let us get a table without everyone there. A girl came up to me and we started talking. She commented on my rings and asked about my taste in music. A classic girl trying to figure out if you're a lesbian move, which I'm bi. So we talked for another hour before she invited me to go back to her place and hang out. Jerry had texted me about 10 minutes before and said he wouldn't be able to make it because of the snow and damage to his car.

Ashley Flowers (63:16)

Oh my God, is this like a fireball situation all over again? Canada edition.

Britt Prawat (63:20)

Since it was a girl, I was totally comfortable and had my guard down. Right as we were about to leave together. Some guy a few seats down, ordered a fireball shot, shut the and my heart stopped. Your episode episode on the fireball abductions immediately came flooding back to me and I immediately made an excuse to go to the bathroom. I waited for about 15 minutes, and when I walked out, she was gone. It could have been a perfectly innocent flirting girl, but because of you, I didn't take that chance. I wanted to share in case other LGBTQ girlies wonder if these traffickers caught onto women's suspicions, but realized that another girl would have our guard down. So thank you, Ashley and Britt, for giving me the information I need to keep myself safe. You guys are amazing.

Ashley Flowers (64:07)

Ooh. Full body chill.

Britt Prawat (64:08)

Like, this is already a story that I feel like we see a lot in, like, the messages that come through. Like, oh, I remember this episode. And like, I feel like it kept me safe.

Ashley Flowers (64:15)

But for it to be a specific.

Britt Prawat (64:18)

One fireball shot was just like, I stopped in my tracks.

Ashley Flowers (64:21)

That's wild. And again, like, some people be like, oh my God, nothing happened. That's the point. I don't think. Okay, whatever it was, I hope I. I hope nothing ever happens.

Britt Prawat (64:30)

I hope we run out of episodes 1000%.

Ashley Flowers (64:32)

I love it. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? At Designer Shoe Warehouse, we believe that shoes are an important part of, well.

Britt Prawat (64:49)

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Ashley Flowers (64:54)

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Britt Prawat (64:59)

For all the big and small moments that make up your whole world. DSW is there and we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love at brag worthy prices at your DSW store or dsw.com hi, crime junkies, it's Britt. If you're like me and you're ready to dive into even more cases, there's another podcast I think you're gonna love. Park Predators. In Park Predators, host Delia d' Ambra dives into the haunting crimes that happen in some of the most beautiful and unexpected places across the globe. Delia has helped host a couple of episodes of Crime Junkie in the past, and if you've listened to her before, you already know her investigative approach brings the facts of each case and their chilling details to life, making Park Predators the perfect mix of captivating and informative storytelling. So once you're done with this episode of Crime Junkie, go check out Park Predators. New episodes drop every week. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.