Britt (3:58)

What bedroom is he talking about?

Ashley Flowers (3:59)

He's not entirely sure, but this is like a teeny tiny house. So he goes to where the two bedrooms are. I've got a map of this, like on the website, but it's like a bathroom in the middle and a room on each side. Okay. And some of the stuff I'm gonna mention is like in Buddy's room, some of it is in Charles and Malvina's room. But I think there's like toys and stuff in Buddy's room. I know there's a pillow or pillows and a blanket on the floor. Again, I think in his room, maybe in the other one. But it's basically not how Buddy would typically leave his room. But like I said, he's looking at the room, he's probably not even in it. And if you're standing in between the two rooms, you're looking at the bathroom. And there's something about the shower curtain that catches Charles eye. It's closed and they never leave it closed. So he grabs one end and he begins to pull back the curtain. And right away he sees her. His wife Malvina is laying on her side, submerged in water. It looks like she'd almost been twisted to fit in the tub. Like her knees are bent, her head is by the faucet. And though her top is on and she's wearing both of her shoes, her pants are missing and her underwear is rolled down to her knees. So Charles immediately calls the police. And when investigators arrive, they find 41 year old Malvina Krutz. She is still warm. So is the bathwater. It's like lukewarm. And she doesn't appear to be in rigor mortis. So they're thinking she couldn't have been dead for that long. Now they can see what look like small cuts on her forehead and her scalp. And they think that there was probably a struggle in the bathroom because the towel holder on the wall is like broken off.

Britt (5:37)

So hold up. How long has Buddy been home for? I mean, did he like just come in before his dad got there?

Ashley Flowers (5:44)

No. So Buddy came home during lunch.

Britt (5:46)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (5:47)

Again, he ate a sandwich, talked to his mom, presumably like around noonish.

Britt (5:50)

Noonish?

Ashley Flowers (5:50)

Yeah. Then he left to go back to school sometime shortly after that. And then he comes back home after school. I think he got there around 3:30. And when he got back that second time, I think he just thought his mom wasn't home, the car's not there. Yeah. So he just sat down on the couch and started watching tv. And that's where he spent the next like hour and a half till his dad got home at like 5ish. And he is like a 10 year old boy. So you know, he probably tried to find his mom, called out for her, didn't see her. Maybe he popped into his room, noticed that there's like weird stuff in his room, but he's like also not gonna clean it up cause he wants to watch tv. I don't know. You have a boy. Like I don't know if it's.

Britt (6:27)

I mean it's not even a boy, it's just like 10 year old kid. Right. Like kind of still oblivious to the world. They're kids.

Ashley Flowers (6:33)

Yeah. So anyways, when the police are there, according to the Indianapolis Star, detectives take a look at Buddy's room or maybe the parents room, depending on which source you read where their weird stuff is. And they say that it's more than just in disarray because in addition to the toys like being out of place, I had mentioned that there's also two pillows in the room. So one is on the floor between the bed and the wall. The other is on the floor near the foot of the bed. And both of these pillows have blood spots and mucus stains on them. According to the Indianapolis News, there's a chenille bedspread laid out on the floor which looks like it was used as a palette to like lay down on, I'm assuming. And then there's also a pair of wet pants that they're pretty sure belong to Malvina. They're torn and, like, tossed on the floor. And I can't confirm, but I don't know if Charles saw her wet pants when he was looking around the house. Like, Charles, her husband, or even Buddy. Cause to me, that's more than just, like, disarray. That's, like, weird.

Britt (7:32)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (7:32)

But that's not all they find. So detectives also find a yellow lead pencil that is branded White County Remc, Monticello, Indiana. And there are a few hairs on this pencil that are attached, like, near the point of it. And it's not clear exactly where they find this other hair, but apparently there is another hair found on a bed in the Crutz home. There's so much muddiness between, like, what's in Buddy's room, what's in the parents room. If anything, it's super, super messy. But I kind of go back to, like, I know it's even a 10 year old, but, like, blood on the pillows, wet pants.

Britt (8:09)

But if you're, like, not expecting your mom to be home. She said she was gonna be gone this afternoon, right? She's, like, doing your paper route. Maybe she's doing it because she's also running errands. Like, is it also weird that, like.

Ashley Flowers (8:19)

Your kid comes home and you, like, don't go to the bathroom? Like, I don't know. Or maybe. No.

Britt (8:23)

Like, he's 10, she made a sandwich, everything's taken care of. Like, she gets lunchtime.

Ashley Flowers (8:27)

I'm talking about when he's home from school.

Britt (8:29)

I don't know. Like, I just think that, like, him not noticing these things isn't wild. He's like, okay. Looks literally in the room around him. His mom's not there.

Ashley Flowers (8:37)

His room's a mess. His mom's gonna take care of it. That's also 1958. Okay.

Britt (8:40)

Or his room's a mess, but his mom's not home to see it, so he doesn't have to do it until she asks him.

Ashley Flowers (8:46)

That's fair. That is attention.

Britt (8:48)

And, like, I'll just do whatever I want until she forces me to clean it up. Whatever.

Ashley Flowers (8:52)

Okay.

Britt (8:53)

It doesn't seem that bonkers, but, like, do we know are these hairs on the pencil? Melvinas? Like, that feels like we can decide that, right?

Ashley Flowers (9:00)

I mean, they're not sure at this point. I think, though, that this pencil becomes important because she had those tiny scratches on her scalp and her forehead. So they're thinking that maybe the pencil is what caused that. And then, like, the hair, because there's.

Britt (9:11)

Hair stuck to it, versus it being, like, a Struggle with the towel rack or whatever.

Ashley Flowers (9:15)

Right. So what they end up theorizing is they're like, okay, if she's attacked by someone, maybe this person had this pencil in their front pocket and then it fell out. So they're thinking it's her hair. But, like, again, what are you going to tell? In 1958 now, when they remove Malvina's body from the tub, they realize that there are a couple of shag rugs underneath her that apparently belonged in Buddy's room.

Britt (9:39)

Like, someone maybe used the rugs to, like, drag her into the bathroom, get her into the tub.

Ashley Flowers (9:43)

So that's kind of what they're thinking at first. But here's what's wild. So her autopsy ends up showing that Malvina was alive when she was put in the tub.

Britt (9:52)

What?

Ashley Flowers (9:52)

Yeah, they don't list her cause of death, but the coroner does say that she had water in her lungs. And it's his belief that she was hit in the face and then put in the tub while she was unconscious, but still alive.

Britt (10:04)

So she drowned.

Ashley Flowers (10:05)

Theoretically. Like, I cannot find a place that.

Britt (10:07)

Specifically says spells it out.

Ashley Flowers (10:09)

Right, But a lot of reporting does say that she apparently drowned. I just, like, can't attribute it to. Anyways, now, I do know that the autopsy says she had blunt force trauma above her left eye. So to the coroner, it doesn't look like she just slipped and fell. Like, again, you got the pencil, you got the pants in the other room. Like, they're calling it a murder.

Britt (10:30)

Yeah, I would say the rugs underneath her, like, why are they there if this was an accident?

Ashley Flowers (10:35)

I have so many questions about the rugs, and, you know, I go back to the pants. Like, one of the big questions was the motivation here. Like, was she sexually assaulted? You have her underwear that's down by her knees. So an assault is kind of the only motive that makes sense, considering the scene. And considering that, what I haven't told you is everything else is accounted for with the exception of her car. Right. So, like, her purse, is there any valuables she had, like, allegedly, $260 in cash in her drawer. That's still there, too. But here's the problem with the theory about her being assaulted. We can, like, really dive into this later. But it's a little hard for me to wrap my head around the order of things, because, right, he comes home, she's locked in the bathroom. We know she drowns, but her pants are wet in Buddy's room.

Britt (11:20)

How did they get wet if they aren't in the bathroom with her or.

Ashley Flowers (11:23)

If she was assaulted in Buddy's room, then she's assaulted after she goes in the tub. But she drowns.

Britt (11:29)

But then why are the pants, like, not with her?

Ashley Flowers (11:31)

Right. So again, sexual assault is the motive that they're looking at. But I think there's things that maybe point away from that because their physical exam actually ends up not conclusively showing sexual assault. And they do some kind of chemical test, I believe. But that's going to take a while to come back. For now, they just are still gathering things at the scene. So they've looked at the rooms, they've gathered what they can there, they've looked at the bathroom. So next they move to the kitchen dining area, which is right next to the primary bedroom. And behind the kitchen door that goes to the basement and to the backyard, they discover a towel that has some blood on it. Now, I don't know how much. I don't know if it's something that's like a lot of blood cleaned up blood, a bloody nose, a cut that someone like tried to clean up. And again, if you're getting a little mixed up on like where things are, we found this hand drawn layout published in the Indianapolis Star that will help you kind of. I told you the house is small. You can even describe it for people, probably in a better way than I did.

Britt (12:28)

Well, and like, I guess, great, we found this towel with blood on it. But it goes back to exactly what we were just talking about, right? Like, when is this happening? How is this happening? What all is happening, right?

Ashley Flowers (12:38)

Like I. If Buddy comes home at noon, I imagine she's in the bathroom because the guy's like, with her. That's the only thing I can think, why she wouldn't come out of the bathroom.

Britt (12:46)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (12:46)

Is because somebody's there with her and she's trying to like, protect her son. Like, do you know, let me go.

Britt (12:50)

In here, I can get him away after lunch, right?

Ashley Flowers (12:53)

But then she comes back out. I don't know if he like, sees his. Right. I guess maybe the pants were already there and wet. I don't understand how the pants get wet and then get to Buddy's room.

Britt (13:02)

Yeah, get out of the bathroom.

Ashley Flowers (13:03)

That's the part that's driving me nuts. But anyways, they collect his towel, they go through the house, they're checking for fingerprints, especially in the bathroom and the bedroom on the door. And they are actually able to grab a few promising ones that they hope they can compare to anyone who's been in and out of that house, which is their next step. They got to find out who was coming in and out of that house and the best person to talk to is the last person who saw her alive. Buddy, can you name every single subscription you have? Probably not. Did you know that over 74% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about? With Rocket Money, you don't have to remember every subscription or worry about forgetting any, because you can see them all laid out in the same place. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place, and know exactly where your money is going. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save. Then you can ask them to negotiate for you. They'll deal with customer service. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features, Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com CrimeJunkie that's RocketMoney.com CrimeJunkiE RocketMoney.com CrimeJunkIe.

Britt (14:42)

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Ashley Flowers (15:14)

When they bring Buddy in for questioning, he tells detectives the same story he told his dad and officers at the scene that when he first got home for lunch that day at noon, he didn't actually see his mom. All of their communication was through the bathroom door, and she stayed in there the whole time he was home. Buddy says that his mom was still in there when he finished his lunch, which would have been around 12:30, though he's not exactly sure on the time. But he went back to school and then he says that he got back home at around 3:30pm he saw that the room looked strange and messy. His mom isn't home, so again he just like plops down and watches TV till his dad gets home and Buddy's version of events is actually backed up by a delivery man who showed up at the house a little after noon, like he did every week on Wednesdays to deliver milk. But he says this time, instead of Malvina answering the door, Buddy answered it. And when detectives go and talk to this delivery man, he says he knocks on the door, like, 12:10. Buddy answers. And since it wasn't Malvina, he's like, okay, what type of milk does your mom want? And Buddy's like, okay, let me go check. But Buddy doesn't walk out of sight again. If you go look at the map of this house, it's like just a little rectangle. And he, like, walks back, and it looks like Buddy is talking to his mom through the door. And then he comes back, gives the guy his mom's order, delivery guy leaves. And there's like, you know, nothing important except for the fact that when this delivery guy was leaving or when Buddy's talking to his mom, he makes note that Malvina's car is in the garage, which we know was missing by the time Charles comes home.

Britt (16:48)

Right. So could the delivery driver hear Melvina, like, through the door? Was it that close?

Ashley Flowers (16:53)

I don't think he actually heard her. I think he just hears Buddy, like, hey, mom, what do you want?

Britt (16:58)

Buddy's side of the conversation?

Ashley Flowers (17:00)

Right.

Britt (17:00)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (17:01)

But I don't think we have to question was she, you know, even alive then? Because there is someone else who did hear Malvina's voice after 12:30, when Buddy would have gone back to school. So detectives find two of Malvina's friends, Mildred and Florence, who say that they came by the house after the milkman, and they have this super weird encounter with someone. Like, it's super strange. So here's the scoop, apparently, and just for context. So the Krutz house had caught fire a month before in, like, mid December. So there had been a lot of repairs going on. And Malvina had been bugging her friends to come by and see the update. Well, today is the day that they wanna do that, except they call ahead, like polite women of society would do in 1958. And it's like 12:45 when one of them rings her. But instead of Malvina answering, it's this man on the other end of the line who she doesn't recognize. And immediately when I first read that, I was like, oh, no. Like, I would be. All the red flags would be up. But she just thought it was a repairman. Cause I guess that it had happened before. Cause there were so many people Coming in and out for the.

Britt (18:07)

With all the updates.

Ashley Flowers (18:08)

Right.

Britt (18:08)

Which is gonna make narrowing down those fingerprints even more difficult.

Ashley Flowers (18:12)

Oh, yeah. So Mildred says when this guy picked up, she asked to speak to Malvina, but he just kind of, like, stuttered a little bit. And she says she could hear Malvina's voice in the background asking the man to tell Mildred something. But there is conflicting reporting on what that something was. So one news source reports that she heard something like, tell her not to pick me up today. And then I saw in another place that Malvina says, Tell Mrs. Warning that I have to take Buddy to school and I will pick her up at 1:30.

Britt (18:43)

Which are very different statements.

Ashley Flowers (18:46)

Yeah.

Britt (18:46)

And either way, she didn't want Mildred anywhere around. But, like, also not helpful.

Ashley Flowers (18:51)

Yeah, but I feel like we're missing the even bigger piece because, like, there wasn't talk of picking her up. Everything I read was about her coming just to see the renovations.

Britt (18:59)

There were plans to, like, all of them go somewhere else.

Ashley Flowers (19:01)

Yeah, that part's weird to me. And if I'm not missing anything, if we're not missing context, part of me wonders if she was trying to say something.

Britt (19:08)

Code.

Ashley Flowers (19:08)

Yeah. That was just like, what is she talking about? That's not what was supposed to happen. But, like, should I come there? I don't know. Anyway, I don't think either Florence or Mildred were suspicious or anything, but they are pushy because they're like, okay, well, she invited us. I know you're home, so we're just still going to come over. I don't know if they said that out loud or just, like, thought that, but I know that they get in the car and they make their way over to Malvina's house, and they get there an hour later. So we're talking, like, 140, 145. Ish. And here's what's wild. As they come up on the house, they see Malvina's car, like, backing out of the driveway. I mean, they literally have to stop to let the car back out. But when they take a closer look, it isn't Malvina driving. It is a man. And after watching the car leave, the two women, like, they pull in, they go to the back door, which was left slightly open, and they just, like, wait inside for Malvina.

Britt (20:03)

Okay. They just watched her car, like, they let her car out of the driveway with someone else driving it. They go around to the back where the door is open already open, and, like, waltz inside, plop down, and are like, okay, where is she?

Ashley Flowers (20:18)

I'm Going to need you to be a better crime junkie friend to me if this ever happens.

Britt (20:22)

Like, they weren't looking for her.

Ashley Flowers (20:24)

No. So I don't know if they thought that maybe she was in the car. Like, they don't say anything about seeing.

Britt (20:28)

Her, but then they know she's not at the house.

Ashley Flowers (20:31)

I don't know. Like, I know that, but I'm saying, like, I don't know if they thought she was gonna, like, pop right back. Like, if she was in the car, you would think she would have seen her. Or maybe someone was borrowing her car. Again, to me, it makes no sense. I'm trying to make sense of something that does not make sense. Yeah, but here they are sitting in the house, and they wait for, like, 20 minutes.

Britt (20:51)

Oh, my God.

Ashley Flowers (20:52)

Yeah. Sitting in, like, the kitchen for 20 minutes. And after 20 minutes, they finally get tired of waiting. They write her this note. They put a coat on a chair, this coat that they wanted to give to Buddy, and then they left.

Britt (21:05)

So, okay, is a theory that she was in the car, like, leaving when they pulled up, or that she's already dead in the bathtub?

Ashley Flowers (21:13)

I don't think anyone knows even to this day, but I think the assumption, based on the timeline, is that they're thinking she was likely dead in the bathtub, feet away from them, but she's not cold.

Britt (21:26)

At five, like, hours later, I don't.

Ashley Flowers (21:29)

Know how hot the water was. I mean, like, if you. If you think about the bathtub water, if they put hot water in there, it would keep her warm, and the water is lukewarm by the time they find.

Britt (21:38)

This is like a reverse ice cube.

Ashley Flowers (21:40)

So it'd be, like, three hours. Right. Like, it is a decent amount of time. But we're not talking noon when Buddy's home. I mean, we're talking 1:45 when they get there. I don't know.

Britt (21:48)

Do they wait for 20 minutes?

Ashley Flowers (21:50)

I don't know. I don't know. But we do have this, like, weird time now, right, where you've got Buddy leaving. We've got this call that comes in from her friends where we know she's alive and talking in the background. And then we've got, like, an hour before they actually come, and they're just seeing the man leave. So what happens in that hour specifically? Detectives want to know that. And they actually get a good lead the next day, which is January 30, after someone calls in that her car has been found, her Buick has been abandoned just a little over a mile from her house. According to an Indianapolis Star article, her keys are nowhere to be found. But inside the car, they do find a rag that is smeared with yellow paint. They think it was used to wipe the windshield. I don't know why they come to that conclusion. Or if there's, like, marks or yellow paint or whatever. I don't even know if that's relevant. But it's just something that I read. And now, you know.

Britt (22:43)

Got it.

Ashley Flowers (22:44)

Now, there are some early reports that claim her car had been parked in this area the day before her murder. But that's quickly disproven based on their conversations with the milk delivery person and Malvina's friends.

Britt (22:55)

I know you said the rag is like, question mark, question mark, windshield wiper thing, but the yellow paint. Is there yellow paint in the house?

Ashley Flowers (23:02)

Great question. Initially, I couldn't find anything about yellow paint, But I was going through the source material, trying to track down the importance of the rag. I found a single article that mentioned that the Crutzes kitchen walls were painted gray, but that the trim was yellow. So maybe so, like, I don't know if it's the same yellow.

Britt (23:19)

I would say maybe, like, one tiny part of their house is yellow.

Ashley Flowers (23:23)

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

Britt (23:25)

Also, maybe she could have put it there. It's her rag. Like, it could be nothing, right?

Ashley Flowers (23:29)

Possibly, yeah. I mean, it could be hers.

Britt (23:31)

It could just be, like, something she keeps in her car.

Ashley Flowers (23:33)

Or it could belong to somebody who put her car there. I don't know.

Britt (23:36)

And did they test any of the stuff around the house? Like the blood on the pillows, the mucus stains, the hairs on the pencil?

Ashley Flowers (23:43)

I couldn't find anything about the blood or mucus ever being tested. The hair was using, like, a spectrograph test. And the only thing I found was that the hairs are human. They likely came from a woman, but they can't tell if they belong to Malvina. And then to me, more important than the hairs is, like, the pencil itself. Yeah, but they're never able to determine where. Not where it didn't come from, but, like, who it came from. I mean, I assume it's the killers because Charles says it's not his. Mildred claims that the pencil she used to write that note to Malvina was her own. She puts it back in her purse. I don't know if they asked Buddy or not, but his uncle, who would have been like Charles brother, says that Buddy could have picked one up after a trip to Winnemac, which is, like, two hours north of Indy, so maybe he did. I Mean, like every person that they talk to, when they actually narrow in on this pencil, it kind of becomes a needle in a haystack because detectives actually talked to the manager of the Monticello Remc. That's what's written on the pencil. And in reporting by United Press, the manager says that there were like over a thousand of these pencils handed out like last year alone. So this isn't going to be their ace in the hole by any means.

Britt (24:52)

And what is Monticello Remc?

Ashley Flowers (24:54)

It's just an electric company up in Monticello, Indiana. This is like an hour and a half north of Indy. So again, I don't, you know, we're from here, but I don't, I don't know where Buddy was, but it's like up in that direction. So the pencil is a dead end, the hair is a dead end, and those chemical tests done on Malvina end up being a dead end too. Those come back and there is apparently no indication that Malvina was sexually assaulted. Though what I'll say is that doesn't mean her attacker didn't try. And the thing I don't know, I don't know specifically what tests were done and how would hot water affect that? Yeah, I don't know. But with no leads coming from the physical evidence, detectives are trying to hone in on the why here.

Britt (25:38)

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Ashley Flowers (27:19)

They look at several avenues. They look into anyone who, in and of themselves are suspicious, like sex offenders in the area because despite no forensic evidence of it, detectives can't shake the feeling that her murder was motivated by sex in some way. But even when they go down this route, there are no suspects that turn up. So they also talk to neighbors. According to the Indianapolis Star, there are a few nearby that have a good view of Malvina's house. But the four closest neighbors that they interview tell the town that they didn't hear or see a thing that day, except for one neighbor. They said that they remember seeing two women, Mildred and Florence. They saw them stop in, but then that's it. So, like, they didn't actually see anything helpful. And then there were two dogs that lived nearby that apparently would bark at people in Malvina's yard. But on Wednesday, those dogs were silent.

Britt (28:13)

But we know that the house was getting a lot of work done. There were people in and out all the time. They could be, like, getting used to that, maybe.

Ashley Flowers (28:20)

But, like, this has only been going on when you think about it, since the middle of December was the fire. So, like, a month they've been having renovations. I will tell you this. We have this same woman who walks her two dogs up and down our street every day. I've lived in this house for four years. Charlie loses his GD mind every time they walk by. So maybe these dogs are different. I don't know.

Britt (28:44)

Like, well, yeah, I'm thinking of Birdie. And, like, we have, like, two of Eli's friends who come over, like, at least once a week and have every time, like, since we've had Birdie and like, she's still like, wait, who are you?

Ashley Flowers (28:54)

Who are you? Yeah, why are you in my home? So to me, that's a little bit telling. I don't know if Maybe the dogs just weren't out. I don't. What I don't know is, like, again, it's all context. Were these dogs outside dogs, so they're always out? Were people just not around to hear them bark?

Britt (29:09)

Was there something else going on that they were paying attention? Like, was there a bunny? Literally?

Ashley Flowers (29:12)

I don't know. It's driving me nuts. But if there was someone that they were getting accustomed to, you would think it would maybe be one of the workers, like you were saying. But they're questioning every one of those. Every guy who's been in and out of the house in especially, like, the week of Malvina's murder. I don't know if they're fingerprinted or not, but detectives are questioning them, even holding them, sometimes giving them lie detector tests if they agree, because those are pretty much gold back in the day. And they say that they clear a lot of people just based on their polygraph results. But for every past poly, and little to no evidence to go off of, each man is eventually released.

Britt (29:51)

They have fingerprints, right? Like, they don't need to go off witness statements and polygraphs.

Ashley Flowers (29:56)

That's what I was saying, though. I don't know if they're testing the prints first and then the poly or if they're doing the poly. And if you pass that, they don't even think about testing. I don't know, like, what order this is going in. I know that they're testing some people. You also can't just, like, put it into a system, Right? Like, matches aren't just popping up. And if they're gonna do manual comparisons, even if you do the poly and you collect them, this is what I think. If I had to, like, make a complete guess, which is all this is, is that they get someone to sit down, they do a poly, they take their prints, and then they would have to go and compare them. But if someone passed their poly, it's like, well, just put that to the back of the line.

Britt (30:28)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (30:28)

And those manual comparisons are gonna take a lot of time, I would imagine. But they do eventually put a face to a thumbprint, though. Reporting by International News Service says that it's the print on the bedroom door that they match to someone, but that person ends up just getting cleared.

Britt (30:46)

What?

Ashley Flowers (30:47)

Detectives at the time don't specify who it was, but they do confirm that some of the prints don't belong to Malvina police or her family. But that's like, all they say. Like, no hits. We have this one that we've matched to someone, but don't worry about that. Yeah, don't worry about that guy. Again, I'm. What I imagine is that he.

Britt (31:04)

He also like passed to poly, has an alibi, something.

Ashley Flowers (31:08)

You'll see. We'll get there.

Britt (31:10)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (31:11)

Now there is an alleged hitchhiker that ends up on police's radar. He's around 30 years old. He had convictions back in Alabama.

Britt (31:20)

Do we know for what?

Ashley Flowers (31:22)

I'm not sure. But here's the thing. So this is the 1950s in Indy. This was a black man. So there was a lot of profiling happening. And Malvina's friends who saw her car initially said when they were pulling out that it was a black man driving. But later they admitted that they couldn't actually tell what the person's race was. But it feels like maybe they're just like zeroing in on that detail.

Britt (31:46)

And everyone's first instinct right now is to just point fingers at the nearest black person.

Ashley Flowers (31:51)

Pretty much.

Britt (31:51)

Got it.

Ashley Flowers (31:52)

And I mean, to add some extra context to like the time period. This is all literally happening three years after Emmett Till. So while a lot of finger pointing is happening, I think there is a little bit of like a trepidation. Yeah. To like, nobody wants to put themselves near like a false accusation. So they're also, again, using the Polly's sending people on their way.

Britt (32:13)

Okay. So obviously we've talked a lot about, like, looking outside, people who could come in. But has anyone looked at Charles before? Or maybe even Buddy for that matter? Like at all? Like, just to make sure everybody's versions are lining up.

Ashley Flowers (32:26)

So yes to Charles.

Britt (32:27)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (32:28)

No to Buddy. I think they're probably like, not even humoring that idea.

Britt (32:31)

He's a little kid.

Ashley Flowers (32:32)

Yeah. In their mind, like a 10 year old kid isn't going to do that to their mom. We might think differently about things today, but in 58, Buddy's off the hook. Dad not so much. Dad actually starts looking a little fishy to investigators. I don't know if this happens right away because I know all that other stuff was happening, but I think it's when they like drill in on where he was, when he was. Because they start getting suspicious of Charles when they realize that there is a few hours in the middle of the day, like the day his wife is murdered, that are unaccounted for at work. So it's around midday, same timeframe that we know she's attacked and murdered. And they bring Charles in to ask him where he was. Like, what were you doing if you're not at work and he's like, oh, I was out taking care of some things.

Britt (33:18)

Oh, cool, cool, cool. Perfect. Okay, you're good. Awesome. Taking care of things.

Ashley Flowers (33:24)

Taking care of things. So in an article from the Indianapolis Star, Charles claims that he left work at around noon to go grab some lunch at Mike's Bar. Then he got his shoeshine, but he couldn't remember exactly where he got the shoeshine. And then he went to visit a friend a little bit before 2pm what friend? I was gonna tell you. So 28 year old Charles Fleck. So Charles lives over on the east side in this rooming house which is basically like a shared home where people rent their own rooms but they like share a. It's a roommate. Roommates.

Britt (33:54)

Yeah, Kitchen.

Ashley Flowers (33:55)

I love how I just tried to explain roommates to you.

Britt (33:57)

Who invented roommates?

Ashley Flowers (33:58)

I love it. Anyways, I found a source that claims that Charles Fleck's landlady can corroborate this. She says that he left his friend's house just before three. He apparently got back to work at 3:30pm and then he's at work till like sometime after four when he leaves to go home.

Britt (34:15)

Wait, Charles just takes a three hour lunch break?

Ashley Flowers (34:19)

Don't you love the 50s?

Britt (34:21)

Comes back for an hour, not even like a half hour, barely. And then is like, I think I've done enough here.

Ashley Flowers (34:27)

I've done enough.

Britt (34:28)

I'm going to head home exhausted.

Ashley Flowers (34:30)

Yeah. So he's like, he's a manager for, I think it was called the Southern Transportation Company. So I don't know if he's like making his own schedule. I don't know if when you're a manager like it doesn't matter what rules don't apply. Yeah. Like as long as the people you're managing are working, you can just like hang out for three and a half hours. But it doesn't seem like a very productive workday to me. Now the thing that detectives ask next is like, okay, well what are you doing with your buddy Charles Fleck in.

Britt (34:55)

The middle of the day?

Ashley Flowers (34:56)

In the middle of the day? Just hanging out at his shared room house roommate thing. But he doesn't elaborate. He just says that they're hanging out for an hour, but he gets home at around 5, went in the back door, took off his watch and jewelry before then looking for his wife. But the officer who took Charles statement the evening that Malvina was discovered, because we're getting this statement later, says that that's not entirely truthful. That officer says that Charles told him that he walked into the house through the front door, not the back door. And to that officer, he said it looked like Charles had changed into fresh clothes. Like, he didn't look like his clothes were, like, lived in all day.

Britt (35:38)

Like, oh, okay.

Ashley Flowers (35:39)

Like, I don't know if it was, like, the starchy 1958 or sweatstain. I mean, it's not sweating. It's like the January. But they didn't look lived in.

Britt (35:45)

Right, Got it.

Ashley Flowers (35:46)

And then here is where if you're not already, like, raising your eyebrows, you will. They learn that Malvina had actually filed for divorce from Charles on January 13th.

Britt (36:00)

What?

Ashley Flowers (36:01)

And her reasoning for filing for divorce was that Charles was, quote, guilty of marital misconduct and gross and wanton negligence of conjugal duties for more than 10 years, end quote. But aka the whole time, like, Buddy's been alive.

Britt (36:16)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (36:17)

And the one thing I'll say the first time I heard conjugal duties, I'm.

Britt (36:20)

Like, okay, yeah, we're crime junkies.

Ashley Flowers (36:22)

Crime junkie, prison lingo. But apparently that actually has, like, a broader meeting. I got, like, deep in a Reddit thread where people are like, it does not just mean conjugal in the way that we know conjugal. You're not getting the support you need, et cetera.

Britt (36:35)

Like, there's, like, a lack of connection and intimacy.

Ashley Flowers (36:38)

Yes.

Britt (36:39)

Across the relationship in many facets, maybe.

Ashley Flowers (36:41)

Yes.

Britt (36:42)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (36:43)

So, like, I feel like there's an elephant in the room named Charles Fleck, I would say. I mean, but there's nothing. But there's, like, this is just worth mentioning because if you go online and look it up, it's not that I'm ignoring it. There's just nothing to prove that there's.

Britt (36:57)

Like, really, truly support the idea that.

Ashley Flowers (36:59)

Anything he might have just been going on, hanging out with his Buddy in the middle of the workday, shine and shoes, I don't know. But him and his wife, things were not good. That's what you should know.

Britt (37:08)

Yeah. Big takeaway.

Ashley Flowers (37:09)

And it doesn't stop there. So in a filing published in an article by the Indianapolis News, it also says that she was worried about Buddy's safety if Charles continued living in their house. So she had a restraining order hearing that was scheduled for January 17th. Apparently, neither Charles or her showed up for that hearing. I guess they say it was because they were in the midst of reconciling, but it wasn't the first time that this has happened. Sometime in the early 50s, Malvina had filed for divorce. Like, this is the second time. But they also reconciled, and she never followed through with it so early 50s, this happens. It seems like, you know, Buddy's born early 50s, this happens. Fast forward, this is happening again. But this time, when they missed it, it actually got rescheduled. This hearing that they were supposed to go to, even if they were reconciling.

Britt (37:58)

Versus just being dropped.

Ashley Flowers (37:59)

Right.

Britt (37:59)

They would have to, like, go in and be like, okay, never mind. Just kidding. Let's not reschedule it again.

Ashley Flowers (38:04)

Yes.

Britt (38:05)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (38:05)

But in this one source that I found, Malvina and Charles received an order to appear in court. Wait for it. On January 30th. This is the day after she's murdered. Yeah, she's murdered on the 29th. For me, it's a little too suspicious to just glaze past.

Britt (38:23)

The timing feels so specific, and it shows.

Ashley Flowers (38:26)

And not even just of this. Like, things are happening around this time. Like, when you think about it, their house caught fire in December. I don't know how bad that was. Obviously, they were still living in the home, but they needed renovations. Then we have this restraining order, talks of divorce. This final court date that she doesn't make because she's killed in her home.

Britt (38:42)

There's, like, a lot of turmoil.

Ashley Flowers (38:44)

There's a there there.

Britt (38:45)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (38:46)

At the very least, Charles cannot be completely ruled out. So what they do is they turn to their trusty polygraphs. They have Charles Crutz and Charles Fleck take a polygraph, which they both passed. But in the midst of Charles Crutz's test, he tells detectives something interesting.

Chuck (39:08)

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Britt (39:40)

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Ashley Flowers (40:13)

Charles says that since Malvina's death, he has gotten a handful of strange calls at night. Apparently, this woman with a slight Southern accent has called Charles three different nights. But every call had come at around 9pm and every time she said, Is this Mr. Krutz? And he says, yes, the woman would just hang up. And while it seems like way too little to actually, like, go off of or do anything with, detectives feel like these calls are their answer to things. Because Charles passed his polygraph, he must be all good, right? He says, someone's calling. Maybe someone's involved. Now, there is an interesting tidbit about this, but also, it's not a secret tidbit. I'm pretty sure Charles would have known this already. But Mildred, when she had originally called about coming over, she said that the man she spoke with also had a southern accent. So this leads detectives to be like, oh, well, this must be connected.

Britt (41:16)

Two people with a similar accent. Okay.

Ashley Flowers (41:19)

Yeah. And, like, listen, it's 58. I have a hard time getting hold of phone records for, like, cases that happened in the 80s and 90s. I don't know if they checked that or would have, but I would like to see some backup before I'm just like, well, Charles must have gotten these calls, right? And I know they try because the Daily Reporter says that they start a quote, unquote, systematic probe of the phone calls. And then not that much time later, the Indianapolis police literally come out and say that they think Charles mystery woman is in danger because she might know the identity of the man who answered the phone. But that's only mentioned one time. So I don't know if they, like, proved the calls happened. I don't know why they would think she would know, other than that she has a southern accent. Like, we're either missing a lot or they're, like, really reaching.

Britt (42:05)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (42:06)

Anyway, zero comes after this, and they don't seem to go back to Charles. By early February, detectives have two dueling theories, and one is much more likely than the other. So there's the murder angle, and then there's a tragic accident angle.

Britt (42:23)

Hold up. How did we get to accident?

Ashley Flowers (42:26)

I don't know, but police are saying there is a possibility that Malvina actually fell.

Britt (42:32)

No, the coroner already ruled that out.

Ashley Flowers (42:34)

He did, but in another article by the Daily Reporter, one of Malvina's friends apparently went to detectives and told them that she had dislocated a disc in her back or neck or something that could put her out of commission at times. And she says at one time, like in front of this woman, Malvina had it flare up and she actually fell straight back onto the floor. So I don't know. I think it's something that they're throwing out because, like, I don't know, they.

Britt (43:00)

Don'T have anything on the murder angle. So.

Ashley Flowers (43:02)

Yeah. And then if you go to the murder angle, I think their other theory there is that Malvina was attacked in her son's bedroom, became unconscious at some point, then was dragged to the bathroom, either using those rugs that were found underneath her, or they were just accidentally grabbed when someone like scooped her up and picked her up and put her in the tub.

Britt (43:21)

Which to me seems way more likely because if her back was acting up and she fell into the back, like, how do the rugs get there? It doesn't get explained in an accident.

Ashley Flowers (43:32)

Yeah, like the rugs from his room specifically.

Britt (43:36)

Right. Not like the bathroom bathroom rug.

Ashley Flowers (43:38)

There's a movie, there's like a rom com. I can't think of it where someone like hurts their back and they're like naked and they have to cover themselves with the rug. Do you know the one I'm talking about? Oh, someone listening will know what I'm talking about. But it's like what I was picturing. But that doesn't make sense if we're.

Britt (43:51)

Talking about rugs from a bedroom.

Ashley Flowers (43:53)

Unless something happened in Buddy's room and then she's embarrassed and she like maneuvers herself to the bathroom so she can hide while her son comes home. I would think she would ask her son for help. Like it doesn't make nothing about explain that.

Britt (44:04)

That's why she's in the bathroom and not coming out.

Ashley Flowers (44:06)

But if someone like pulled her with the rug, she goes into the bathroom unconscious. Like, why is she talking to Buddy through the door?

Britt (44:13)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (44:13)

I don't understand this one. But the rugs is just a theory. It's all a theory. And I think they really start at least getting away from the accident theory by the end of February. Because that's when three witnesses come forward who say that they saw a man with Malvina eight days before her murder. They say they know this guy. He was a 37 year old named Robert Smith, who is a paper hanger, basically someone who did wallpaper back in the day.

Britt (44:40)

Got it.

Ashley Flowers (44:41)

And he was someone who had been working on the renovations, like in their home.

Britt (44:45)

But didn't they clear everybody who was working at the house?

Ashley Flowers (44:48)

Yes. Again, they say that, but like, but.

Britt (44:51)

We don't know how or when or who those people are. They just kind of blanket say it.

Ashley Flowers (44:55)

And it does change. The unclear thing is I don't know exactly when that flips because they say it multiple times that they cleared people. But at some point that does change because Robert turns out to be one of two guys that investigators have on their radar again. The second being someone named Leroy penic. He's a 40 year old painter also who worked at the house. Now, to go to Robert, he was initially questioned on January 29, the day that they found her, but he was one of the ones that they released pretty quickly. Now he's back on the radar. He's being held without bond because now we have this witness saying that they saw Robert and Malvina in her car with Robert driving. And then they find two other people that say they saw them at a business together, likely picking out wallpaper.

Britt (45:41)

But eight days before, I mean, that means nothing.

Ashley Flowers (45:44)

I agree. Like, again, I don't know if this is a product of the times. I don't know if this is a product of just being so desperate. I mean, literally, the only thing is, like, someone's like, I saw them together eight days before, a week ago. Yeah, you should look at him for her murder. Now in more reporting for the Indianapolis Star, Robert denies being in Malvina's car ever. And he says he wasn't even working at her house on the day of her murder because he was working at a different location. But detectives say that they have, quote, absolute evidence that proves otherwise.

Britt (46:14)

What's this absolute evidence?

Ashley Flowers (46:15)

They would be too easy if they told us.

Britt (46:17)

That's why it's called absolute evidence.

Ashley Flowers (46:18)

Absolute evidence. But they never disclose it. We're just left to have to trust them.

Britt (46:23)

Got it.

Ashley Flowers (46:23)

Now, they also say his alibi is full of holes they don't share. What kind of holes? Don't even ask. I know. And they do have him take a polygraph if he hadn't already before. That part's unclear to me. But he passes with the exception of one question. It's a question about him being in Malvina's car with her a few days before her murder. He says he wasn't, and I guess his answer is inconclusive, but he passes the overall test. And like, listen, if that's what he's passing, maybe he. Maybe they did go pick out wallpaper eight days before. Like, I'd be terrified in that position to like, say I was in a white woman's car. Who's now murdered. Get out of here.

Britt (46:57)

Like, and like, also. Inconclusive is not wrong. Inconclusive is just. I'm nervous as. And he worked at the house, like, right?

Ashley Flowers (47:06)

And at least they dropped the charges based on this. So he ultimately passes the preliminary. Charges are dropped. He's released from custody, which is the upside of polygraphs in 58, at least. Like, it goes Bible both ways. So up next is Leroy Pennock. So he is initially picked up on January 31st and questioned and then released. But I think detectives had a better reason for picking him up. At the time, they had gotten a call from a tavern owner who said that this man walked into his business on the day of Malvina's murder and said he just, quote, slapped a girl around and left fingerprints all over the place. Leroy allegedly asked the owner if he would vouch for him if the topic ever came up with police. And he asked him to say that he had been painting the tavern that day.

Britt (47:51)

Are they, like, friends or something?

Ashley Flowers (47:53)

No. Because immediately the owner's like, absolutely no. Like, no, no, no, no. And he calls the police to tell them the whole story. So detectives brought him in, like, that very day. This is, again, early on. He's looked at whatever. But something must have changed, because detectives leave Leroy a note at his house telling him that they want to talk to him again. Maybe they're just circling back. I don't know. But he comes in totally voluntarily, gives two polygraphs, and then, poof, on February 22, they bring a preliminary murder charge against him because those two polygraphs showed deception. Now, he claimed that he had been drinking the night before, like, the night before taking those tests. So that was what attributed to the failed polygraphs. But they don't care. Polygraphs are Bible. So after charging him, they get him on the books for a third polygraph, which, surprise, surprise, he fails as well. And in each of the polygraphs, he has what detectives call a strong emotional reaction to any question about Malvina and her house and the crime scene. Now, Leroy might have had a reaction to the questions, but he wasn't too upset about failing the polygraphs because he tells detectives that he has been arrested 18 times, and he knows lie detector tests don't hold up in court.

Britt (49:07)

Okay, Ahead of his time and cocky about it.

Ashley Flowers (49:09)

So while he's waiting for his preliminary hearing, he undergoes a mental evaluation because he had gotten a head injury when he was serving in World War II. He suffered from dizzy spell, but the results come back. He's deemed fit for trial. And while he's been in custody, Detectives also take him to his home so they can search for any additional evidence that could tie him to the scene. I mean, specifically, they're looking for any yellow paint similar to what had been found on that rag in her car. You got it. Now, they don't find a can of yellow paint that could match, but they do find some clothing that has yellow paint on it, and they send that off for analysis. Pretty quickly, Results come back, and it's inconclusive. But there was also another result that came back that detectives have been waiting 21 days for. That random hair, the one that they found on one of the beds in the Crutz home. And the results claim that they can apparently tell that the hair came from a black person.

Britt (50:07)

That seems convincing. Convenient.

Ashley Flowers (50:11)

I know, and I'm like, shocked. It took 21 days. Like, and it happens right as they have this person in custody. Convenient, I think, is the right word. But it doesn't really matter because they can't conclusively connect that hair to Leroy. They can't connect anything to Leroy. And according to the Indianapolis recorder, in the state of Indiana, a person can't be kept for longer than seven days on a pre charge. So they have to end up letting him go since there isn't enough evidence to do a definitive charge. I didn't know there was a difference between a pre charge and like, but apparently there is.

Britt (50:43)

Yeah. Okay, cool.

Ashley Flowers (50:44)

Again, I don't know if that's still around or not, but I learned something new today. So on February 28, Leroy is free to go. And so, with their second promising suspect released, detectives are back at square one. Now, a few months go by, and honestly, I don't know what they're doing behind the scenes. But a break in the case comes on June 12th. That's when Indianapolis police pick up a 26 year old man named James David Rogers, and they pick him up on warrants for grand larceny and issuing fraudulent checks. And while he's in custody, he tells officers something unexpected. James says that he is the one who killed Malvina. He says they met in a Cafe on January 29, 1958, and he ended up going home with her. He claims that he was at the house when her son came home for lunch. And basically she had left the bedroom in her robe, made his lunch, and then come back when the boy went back to school. And then he says he stayed at the house until like three in the afternoon when apparently he had gotten mad at her. He said he punched her in the side of the head. She passed out. He said he got scared, tried bringing her into the bedroom, but he wasn't able to. So he dragged her to the bathroom, put her in the tub, turned on the cold water to wake her, and then when she didn't wake up, he left in her car. So, like, inconsistencies.

Britt (52:06)

Yeah, yeah. I was like, every sentence, I'd be like, okay, he's the guy. And then you'd say something like coming out in the robe to make the.

Ashley Flowers (52:13)

Sandwich from the bedroom. Yeah. Nothing about the bathroom and talking through the wall.

Britt (52:16)

The cold water.

Ashley Flowers (52:18)

You know, the water is leaking.

Britt (52:18)

He was leaving at 3 and not 1:40. When the women saw the car leaving. Like, those are not small things. Those are huge discrepancies.

Ashley Flowers (52:26)

I know. So at first, police were like, oh, my gosh, this is the real deal. This is our guy.

Britt (52:30)

It's like, one step forward, two steps back. Every time he says something.

Ashley Flowers (52:32)

Yeah, because the more he talks, the more suspicious they become that he's just, like, feeding them a false story. Because then he says after he left at 3, he got in the car and drove off, and then he left the car. But, like, the place that he's saying he left the car, all of that had been shared publicly.

Britt (52:46)

He wasn't providing any, like, only the killer. New.

Ashley Flowers (52:49)

Yeah.

Britt (52:50)

Information.

Ashley Flowers (52:51)

According to the Indianapolis Star. He goes on to say that before he left, he wiped the steering wheel off with a paint rag and any other places that he could have, like, left his. And then he locked the car, tossed the rag, tossed the keys in a gutter down the road. And, like, they want him to keep talking because they're, like, sussing out this story. And the big piece or, like, the pieces that they're, like, having a problem with is, like, there's no motive. There's no reasoning. There's nothing. And so, as I'm sure you can guess, just a couple of days later, he ends up recanting his entire confession. And he's like, I didn't do it, but I do know who did. That's why I, like, came for it. I'll tell you tomorrow.

Britt (53:24)

Of course, we can't believe a word this guy says.

Ashley Flowers (53:27)

Well, and that's what it ends up being. So, like, he starts naming other people. Once one is ruled out, he's like, oh, no, no, no. It's another guy. And by, like, the fourth accusation, it just keeps going. Yeah. Detectives are pretty much done listening to what this guy has to say, and they really just kind of chalk it all up to personal struggles that he's facing. And once again, detectives have nothing. The Indianapolis Star puts out a $5,000 reward in April for anyone with information that could lead to an arrest. And by doing this, they start getting more tips in. On July 15, a mysterious letter is sent to the newspaper that is seemingly spurred from the reward. And the letter seems to have some merit because detectives publicly plea for the letter writer to give more information specifically about a man wearing gray coveralls.

Britt (54:15)

Wait, I guess I missed it. What else is in this letter?

Ashley Flowers (54:18)

So I don't have details. Like, it just says that they got this letter, they make this plea for the guy. But then they do actually have another letter that pops up in December of 1960. And the timing of it's so weird because I guess that when this one pops up, they've been like, sitting on this second letter for the entire two and a half years. Like, it got sent around the same time as that one letter we don't know about. But when detectives find it now, either someone new is looking at the case, or however it gets to them the second time, they realized that this second letter was likely never looked into. And they do actually publish this one. So I'm going to have you actually read this one.

Britt (54:54)

Okay. The letter says, re Malvina Krutz. The same afternoon on the day of this murder, I was in my car at 49th and Meridian heading west, waiting for a light to change when a slim, very dark complexioned man with mustache was locking car north of Meridian on west side of street. He ran like a speed racer south on Meridian just as light was changing. While crossing street, he made movement toward his cab, but seems to toss something toward the west. Some days later, making the same trip, I drove slowly west on 49th as two small boys picked something out of the street on south side of 49th west of Meridian. I heard one say someone has lost their car keys. I remember another car was parked on Westside Meridian about third house down.

Ashley Flowers (55:43)

So the keys in this whole thing are still missing, by the way.

Britt (55:46)

Okay.

Ashley Flowers (55:47)

Like, they've never been found. Which would make sense if some kids found them, like, not long after they were tossed out, like, and just, like, pick them up.

Britt (55:54)

Because kids pick up, like, random.

Ashley Flowers (55:56)

Yeah. And, like, kept them and put them in their playhouse and, like, threw them away eventually.

Britt (55:59)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (56:00)

And I don't get super caught up on the mustache because according to the Indianapolis Star, officers described Leroy as, quote, the playboy type with a thin mustache. So I don't know, helpful information, but, like, not much detectives can do with it at the moment. And I don't know if there's like, if the first letter had something to do with seeing the same person in, like, Leroy had great coveralls, or someone saw someone in gray. Like, the connection between letter one and letter two is like, I don't get it.

Britt (56:24)

Are they the same letter writer? Like, there's so many questions of the same letter writer. Are they just two letters that, like, back each other up, but they feel.

Ashley Flowers (56:32)

Weirdly connected in some way, just the way they talk about them. But anyways, they put this out there. Nothing comes of it. And a couple more years go by. But in 1962, Malvina's case heats back up because Mr. Leroy Panic is arrested for murdering his partner, Carol Jean Martin, in their shared apartment. And Carol's autopsy says, I actually hadn't seen this before. It says she died from strangulation on blood from many cuts and bruises on the head, and she had a cerebral edema.

Britt (57:04)

So were these, like, little cuts like Melvina?

Ashley Flowers (57:06)

That's what I honed in on too. I don't know. They never get to, like, if they're like, tiny little cuts or like gashes.

Britt (57:13)

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers (57:14)

Now, during their interrogation about this, about his partner's murder, Leroy first says that his partner was drunk, falling over all over the place. That's why her entire body was covered in bruises.

Britt (57:24)

I'm sorry.

Ashley Flowers (57:25)

No, I know. And then he eventually admits to hitting her with an open palm after she started cussing at him. And he also said he did drop her down a flight of stairs.

Britt (57:34)

Oopsies.

Ashley Flowers (57:35)

But he just decided not to get her help. And then he brought her up the stairs, but then apparently she fell again. And then, like, he went to bed or she went to bed. It's like, unclear. And then he just goes on like everything is normal until one of his friends comes over. And his friend is immediately alarmed. And I don't know who calls the police. There's conflicting information, but either him or his friend call the police. Either way, it doesn't look good for him. And that is when he's arrested. So at the end Of April of 62, Leroy is indicted for first degree murder. His trial starts in January of 63. He takes the stand in his own defense, where his story changes. Like, in court as it's happening. He says, like, he just found Carol dying, and, like, whoever attacked her must have left the scene before he got there.

Britt (58:19)

So he's not even, like, trying to stick to the original story he told attackers?

Ashley Flowers (58:23)

No. And it's not even, like, it's not even Believable.

Britt (58:25)

Right.

Ashley Flowers (58:25)

So the jury ends up finding him guilty of second degree murder in Carol's case, which gives him an automatic life sentence. And he is sentenced, like by early February. And that is actually the last thing I could find about Leroy in the news. During his trial and sentencing. It was clear that he was a prominent suspect in Malvina's case. Like, it was mentioned over and over, but there has just never been enough evidence to actually charge him with it. So without a confession from him, detectives can't determine if he was responsible or not. But I don't think their suspicions of him ever really go away. This is only mentioned in one place, but in an article by the Indianapolis News, shortly after his sentencing, we find out that it was Leroy's fingerprints that were found all over her house. Which, yeah, like, eyes wide open, but like, he also was a painter actively working inside their house. So, like, that's not even something that they could use to charge him.

Britt (59:20)

Right. Because he had a reason to be there, essentially.

Ashley Flowers (59:24)

So while Leroy is in prison, Malvina's case goes cold. And 66 years later, that is how it remains today, unsolved. Now, there was a short blip where it kind of got brought up again in 1977 when there was like this interesting connection that was made around the circumstances of Malvina's death and the death of a 23 year old first grade schoolteacher named Linda McDaniel. She. I don't know if you remember this. We covered this like, way back in the day because I'm obsessed with Linda's case and there's almost no information about it. So like, we did this like, mini episode in the fan club, but Linda was found in her own home. She was kneeled over with half her upper body submerged in water in the tub. No signs of a struggle except some bruising on her arms. Nothing was taken from her apartment. She was only in her underwear, but no signs of sexual assault. So there are like some eerie similarities, especially with how far apart they happen, but those similarities are where the connections end. So, like when Linda dies, like, everyone's like, oh, remember Malvina?

Britt (60:25)

It was a lot like this, but it has nothing to do with it.

Ashley Flowers (60:28)

Right. Though Linda's case is still unsolved too. Now many of the people in this case are no longer alive, including Malvina's husband, who passed away at 70 in 1980. Her son Buddy died actually just in 2017 when he was 69. And really for this family, it felt like tragedy was just kind of stuck to them for a while. So in September, I talked about all the things that happened, Right. You have the fire, you have, like, Malvina's death. And then in September of 58. So this is eight months after she was murdered. Charles, Buddy and Charles mom, Fanny, they were in a pretty serious car accident. Like, Fanny was actually killed in the crash. Charles was in critical condition for a while. It seems like Buddy made it out with just a broken arm and leg. But it was like, it was weird where, like, somebody, like, they were driving on the highway, someone, like, saw them swerve. But nobody knows what happened. I don't know. Like, I can't shake the feeling like.

Britt (61:18)

There was, there was like a darkness around them.

Ashley Flowers (61:20)

Yeah. And it's like the family just couldn't catch a break. This is obviously an old case, but if you have any information that could lead detectives down new paths or help corroborate previous theories, you can reach out to Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana on their app or by calling 317-262-TIPS. If you want to talk directly to the Indiana State Police, you can call their cold case hotline at 1-800-453-4756. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

Britt (61:55)

And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.

Ashley Flowers (61:58)

I like how you closed your eyes for that. We'll be back next week for another episode. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Chuck (63:11)

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Britt (63:43)

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