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WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 1
00:50:09
In 2021, we set out to cover the case of Rhys Pocan, a 35-year-old Indigenous woman who was murdered in Wisconsin in the ‘80s. But while we were in the field, we uncovered a disturbing pattern of murders with similarities to Rhys’ that were just too blatant to ignore. So, we spent the next three years working with local and federal law enforcement to try and get to the bottom of it.
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- [00:00]
Ashley Flowers
Hi Crime Junkies. I am here because there is an update in a case that you may have been following with me and you need to hear this. If you listened to season seven of Counterclock, you will know the case of Nathaniel Jones and the five teenage boys convicted of his murder. When the season ended, there were major questions about whether or not investigators got it right and host Delia D'Ambra made it clear this case was far from over. Well, now this case is back in court and decisions that could change everything are unfolding right now. In an all new bonus episode of Counterclock, Delia takes us inside the recent evidentiary hearing, reveals the results, and shares new interviews with people who are speaking out for the first time after hearing the season. So if you need to catch up on the season or you need a refresher, head back and listen to season seven of Counterclock so that you're ready for this pivotal update. And then go listen to the bonus episode of Counterclock, which you can get wherever you get your podcasts. There's a reason the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the number one best bed for couples only Sleep Number Smart beds let you and your partner each choose your ideal comfort and support. My personal Sleep number setting is 70 and my husband's is 35. Two very different beds all in one so we can meet in the middle and cuddle. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side and now save 50% on the new SleepNumber Limited Edition Smart Bed Limited Time exclusively at a SleepNumber store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. There's a lot to say when buying a new home or car, but only one thing to say that can help you protect them. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. And just like that, a State Farm agent will be there to help you choose the coverage you need. No matter where you are in life. When you need coverage options, your State Farm agent is there to help. On the phone or in person. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [02:02]
Britt
Crime Junkie is presented by Acorn tv. Hooked on crime dramas on edge of your seat whodunits? Acorn has you covered with thousands of hours of ready to stream psychological thrillers, Nordic noir investigative crime series and true crime documentaries from around the globe. You might just discover your next obsession like the Acorn TV original, A Remarkable Place to Die, a gripping murder mystery set in stunning New Zealand. Mysteries abound on Acorn tv. You're a partner in crime. Acorn TV Brilliant. Available on all the usual streaming devices. Visit Acorn TV and use promo code CRIMEJUNKIE30 for a 30 day free trial.
- [02:39]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
- [02:42]
Britt
And I'm Britt.
- [02:43]
Ashley Flowers
And the story I have for you today has been years in the making. It all started when we set out to cover one unsolved case in Wisconsin. But what we uncovered was a possible serial killer at work in the state and 10 eerily similar cases that had never been connected, separated by jurisdiction and bureaucracy. But sometimes it takes a little podcast and three years of work to get people working together and thinking outside of the box. So our story today starts with the case that piqued our interest years ago, and that's the murder of reese Pocan. On September 2, 1989, the Non Emergency dispatch line at the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office in Wisconsin started to ring. The caller won't give his name, but he says earlier that morning, like, sometime before sunrise, he and his wife were walking in Nichols Creek, which is this, like, public hunting ground, and they stumbled upon a dead body. So the dispatcher asked, like, are you sure it's a human body? And the man says, quote, oh, yeah, it's been decapitated. And it's been there for a while, apparently. Now, he explains that he saw the body about 100ft off a public access road. And when the dispatcher offers to get a detective on the line, the man's like, no, no, no, no. Like, I just found it. I wanted to report it. Like, like, I don't want anything to do with this, basically. Right? So he hangs up without identifying himself and leaves before authorities actually get to the scene, where they do find the body. That, and it is in a particularly gruesome state. This victim is severely decomposed, like almost mummified. And the victim's head and hands are missing. And it appears as if the corpse had been scavenged by animals and insects. Like, the insides are literally hollowed out and the skin is almost like leather. Other than the body, though, there is nothing else at the scene. And despite searching far and wide, they don't find any other body parts. They don't find any clothes, no personal belongings, which makes identification essentially impossible. But based on the pelvic bone of this victim, the M.E. determines that this was a female. And a small scar on her abdomen, plus surgical clips near where the gallbladder would have been, tells them that this Jane Doe likely had a gallbladder surgery. But there aren't any obvious markings or wounds. On the body. So the cause of death is undetermined. And strangely, the manner of death is ruled undetermined, too.
- [05:47]
Britt
Ma'am, she was decapitated. How is that that undetermined in any way?
- [05:52]
Ashley Flowers
Listen, everyone agrees with you, like, now, but back in the day, I guess the me so this guy named Dr. Jeffrey Jensen says that the head and hands being gone, again, he's saying this way back when in 89, he says that could be due to, like, animal predation.
- [06:08]
Britt
And they didn't take her feet. Animals just came and took the things that could identify her.
- [06:14]
Ashley Flowers
I know it sounds bananas when you say it out loud, but everyone back then was like, well, that's what the ME Says. Like, he's the professional. Except, yes, he was a professional, but he was new at his profession at the time. And we actually talked to this doctor for this episode. We asked him to review his own old findings. And he said that if he could do it all over again with, like, what he knows now, his experience, he would definitely list her death as a homicide rather than leaving that line blank. He said that in 89, again, he's brand new to the job. And in talking to us, he admitted that there's, like, just no possible way that her head and hands were actually removed by animals. So, anyways, almost two months later, the Waukesha County Sheriff's Office, which is just over an hour south of Sheboygan, they get a surprise when a hunter walks into their office with a severed hand in a bag. Now, this man, Russell Martin, says that he was out with his son and their dog, like, pheasant hunting on October 21st in this big open field, which, by the way, is also a public hunting ground, when all of a sudden, his dog starts acting super strange, like, off in the distance. Like, he's not right next to him. He's just rolling around on the ground. It's like, I have Chuck. I know he's rolling in something dead.
- [07:28]
Britt
Always.
- [07:28]
Ashley Flowers
Like, it's terrible. So he's not coming. When he calls him, he goes over there to see what his dog's doing, and he gets the shock of his life when it's not animal poop or an animal he's rolling in. He likes looks at what his dog is so worked up over, and it is a human hand. It looked like a left hand, mostly skeletal, with four fingers and no thumb. But thumb or no thumb, there is no doubt what Russell is looking at. So he actually. He doesn't call police like they did with the body. He, like, picks up the Hand and takes it to the sheriff's office in like, this little plastic baggie that he had in a first aid kit. And then the sheriff comes out to, like, where he found it. They end up doing this big search of the area, which turns up the other hand, but nothing else.
- [08:12]
Britt
So basically in Sheboygan, there's a body with no head or hands, and in Waukesha, there's hands with no body.
- [08:19]
Ashley Flowers
Exactly. So Waukesha actually tried getting fingerprints off the hand to try and identify them. But I told you, it's like mostly skeletal. Like, it's not even really possible. But then I'm not really totally sure, like, which department it was. Someone has this like, light bulb moment and it's like, oh, wait a minute. Exactly what you said. Like, I wonder if these hands belong to that body that has no hands right now. They couldn't definitively connect anything yet, but like, you know, come on. Probably, though, even if they could say that these hands belong to the body, like, you still can't say who this person is. Right?
- [08:53]
Britt
Can we at least call it a homicide? Because animals didn't take the hands and drive them 80 miles away.
- [09:00]
Ashley Flowers
Of course we could if they were determined to be connected. Right, but they can't for sure say that, like, this is where DNA would be super useful right about now. But in 1989, in rural Wisconsin, like, forget about it. It's not until, like six months later, in April of 1990, that efforts are finally made to see if detectives can finally match the Waukesha county hands to the Sheboygan county body and more importantly, try and identify who they belong to. So lab tests are done out of state, but those ultimately come back inconclusive.
- [09:34]
Britt
Okay, this might be a dumb question, but I assume they've gone through all of their, like, cataloged missing people, right?
- [09:40]
Ashley Flowers
Not dumb question, no. But yes, they have. So there's nothing in either of these counties that fits the little information they have. But after these inconclusive lab results, investigators decide to broaden their search. And I mean, considering how far apart these remains are, like, clearly someone is willing to travel to cover their tracks here. So they start looking as far away as Milwaukee, which is a pretty big city with a lot more missing person reports. And one of them really stands out. There is a 35 year old woman who was reported missing in August of 1989 named Reese Pocan. Not only does the timing fit, since she went missing about a month before the body was found, but there is a note in her missing persons report about a gallbladder surgery scar that really raises some eyebrows. And it's that scar that helps detectives confirm less than a month later, what they'd been waiting almost a year to find out. Their Jane Doe is without a doubt, Reese Pocan. But now they have even more questions because the circumstances around Reese's disappearance are truly bizarre. The story of her disappearance begins on August 10, 1989. So Reese had dropped her eight year old daughter Charlie off with her sister Flavia, who was Charlie's aunt. And I actually got to meet Charlie. And even all these years later, she says that she can still remember her last moments with her mom vividly. And there are certain parts of this episode, I'll tell you right up front, that I want you to hear something directly from the person who lived it. And this is one of those. So here's Charlie.
- [11:16]
Charlie
I do remember that day. And it's always kind of just replays in my head. She told me I had to go to my aunt's house that day. She was going to watch me. And so we rode our bikes down. She didn't live far from us. And then we got there and I was like, well, I don't want to stay here. I want to go with you. Because I would go with her sometimes. So I was like, I don't want to go, I don't want to stay here. I want to go with you. And she's like, no, you can't this time. You have to stay here. And then I remember watching her ride her bike away and I was mad and then I turned around and that was the last time I saw her. Every plays all the time and you know, now I look back and it's just kind of weird because. And watching her, you know, right away, not knowing that's the last time I would see her. But it's really hard when you look back and you know that was the last time I was going to see her. Did your mom tell you why you.
- [12:01]
Britt
Couldn'T go with her that day?
- [12:02]
Charlie
She just said you couldn't. I just couldn't go with her that day. And she didn't say.
- [12:07]
Ashley Flowers
Reese's brother Billy also remembers seeing Reese that afternoon on her bike. And this is likely right after she dropped Charlie off. But he's not totally sure of the timing. He said they spoke for a second and Reese seemed like she was in good spirits. She told him that she was on her way to her boyfriend's house. We're going to call her boyfriend Chris. So Chris told Billy that Reese had stopped by his place and he puts that at like 2:45, 3:00pm which would have been right before he left for work. And then Chris says that Reese headed out on her bike in the direction of nearby National Avenue to go bar hopping. And this is where things start to get weird because there was this trail of sightings and encounters and even physical signs of Rees Pocan in the following hours. But sometime before midnight, she seemingly vanished into thin air.
- [13:01]
Britt
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- [13:57]
Ashley Flowers
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- [14:20]
Detective Nathan Hatch
Auto pay with debit or bank account.
- [14:22]
Ashley Flowers
Regulatory fees included for qualifying accounts. $35 connection charge applies. Fees vary due to factors affecting cellular networks. All of Rees Pocan's last movements center around this one strip of establishments on National Avenue. The first sighting of her there is actually around 9ish at a bar called the Golden Spike Tavern. And apparently while she's there, Reese seems pretty drunk or like just out of it now. Where she was from the time she left Chris's place to the time she got to this bar and how she got so drunk or whatever it is she was, that's unclear. There are no confirmed sightings of her during that period. But the bartender at this bar says that around 10 or 11pm, Reese ends up leaving with this older man named Harry to go, like, sleep it off at his house.
- [15:11]
Britt
Oh, I don't like that.
- [15:13]
Ashley Flowers
So that was my first reaction too. But apparently, like, it's not as sinister as it sounds. The bartender says that Harry lives, like, right around the corner from the bar. And he's known, I guess, to let barflies kind of crash at his place if they're too drunk to drive home, or in Rhys's case, bike home. So she says that Rhys just like, grabs her backpack and heads out with Harry on foot.
- [15:31]
Britt
Did she leave her bike behind?
- [15:33]
Ashley Flowers
It would seem so. And actually, a few days later, when her brother Billy is trying to retrace her last steps, like, on his own, he does find her yellow bike propped up outside of a place called Jean's Unicorn Bar, which is right across the street from Golden Spike Tavern. It's possible she was there, like, in between that time. We saw many sightings of her. But anyway, according to Harry, when he and Rhys go to his backyard gate, Rhys kind of like stumbles and drops her backpack in his yard. So Harry, like, bends over, he picks it up to, like, hand it back to her. But before he even can, Reese darted back toward National Avenue. So Harry started walking back toward the bar to return her bag to her. And she's like, out of eyesight by this point. And when Harry gets back to the bar, he sees actually Reese's flip flops, like, neatly placed together on the sidewalk outside. So he scoops her shoes up, planning to return those as well. But when he gets inside of the Golden Spike Tavern, she's nowhere to be found. So he just leaves the items with the bartender.
- [16:29]
Britt
Do we know if Reese ever made it inside the bar?
- [16:32]
Ashley Flowers
That's unclear. But around 11:35pm, Reese encounters a woman named Shirley who works at the American Indian Council on Alcoholism, which is just down the road from the bars on National Avenue. And I guess Reese was known to attend this council sometimes, so she wasn't a stranger to Shirley. But Shirley says basically she's working a late night session and was approaching the front doors to leave when she sees Reece coming inside. And she said that Reese was incoherent when she tried to speak with her. She seemed to be under the influence of something, but she didn't know what. Shirley thought maybe it was drugs, only because she said she didn't smell alcohol on her. And she said that Reese's Words were like slurred when she's trying to talk to her. She just wasn't really making sense. But she seemed super agitated. And Shirley says that she tried to talk to Rhys, but Reese sort of just like pushed her away. And from there, Reese. Reese walked off without explanation, without shoes in the eastbound direction of National Avenue. Now, what's interesting is Charlie told us that her mom did drink a lot, but the only drug she ever experimented with was pot. And not even that often.
- [17:38]
Britt
But maybe that's something that you keep from your kid.
- [17:41]
Ashley Flowers
Totally possible. But I will say the investigator on this case today, his name's Detective Nathan Hatch, he says that that seems to kind of be backed up by other family members, like not just her 8 year old kid. Apparently Reese did like to drink beer, but she wasn't into especially hard drugs.
- [17:56]
Britt
Which makes me wonder if someone like drugged her at the bar.
- [17:59]
Ashley Flowers
It makes me wonder too. I mean, it would be great to have other accounts of her behavior or what she said when she sobered up. But this encounter with Shirley at 11:35pm is the last known time that Reese Pocan is ever seen alive. She never shows back up at her sister's house at the agreed upon time to get Charlie. So Flavia ends up taking Charlie back to Reese's apartment herself and not finding Reese there, she ends up leaving Charlie with the downstairs neighbor, Carla. And Rhys basically lives in this duplex. So she lives on top, Carla lives on bottom. And Carla watches Charlie like pretty regularly since Reese works full time. So it wasn't all that odd when Charlie got dropped off. But what was odd was when Reese didn't show up the rest of the night or the next day, on the 11th or the 12th. I mean, normally her routine was to pop by every four hours or so to make sure everything was good when Charlie was with Carla. But two days went by without so much as a word.
- [18:58]
Britt
And Carla didn't think to tell anyone?
- [19:00]
Ashley Flowers
I guess not. And we actually did get to speak to Carla and she wasn't able to remember exactly what she was thinking at the time. But apparently she, I think, just assumed Rhys would turn up eventually. Now, it wasn't until the 12th that she finally started to get concerned. Because that's when Chris, her boyfriend, Reese's boyfriend, came by looking for Reese. Apparently he and Reese were in this like bowling league together, and she had been totally MIA to their bowling alley date. So he figured that something might be wrong. But it really wasn't until that moment that he and Carla both realized how wrong things Were. So they raised a flag for her brother Billy, and he came over to stay with Charlie until Reese came back. But when she still wasn't there on the 13th, the next day, like, all bets are off. That Sunday, August 13th, Billy reported Reese missing to the Milwaukee PD and an investigation began. And really, it's like, investigation light, I should say, because police call the local hospitals, they call the jails, but of course, they don't find Reese in any of those. And five days later, at the suggestion of Reese's mother, Zane, they pulled Reese's bank records, which showed some transactions on August 7th and 8th and 9th, but nothing on the 10th or after, which is kind of just confirming what they already knew.
- [20:17]
Britt
Also, leave it to the mom to suggest, like, very routine, basic investigative.
- [20:22]
Ashley Flowers
I know. Yeah. So in all that time that Reese has been missing in almost the year before she was connected to that body showing up in Sheboygan. The Pocan family, to your point, is, like, pretty much their own investigators. Like, they were having to unravel her disappearance themselves. Like, her brother Billy was actually the one who went and canvassed the National Avenue bars in the early days when police wouldn't. He was the one, like I said, to find her bike, and he is the one who found out that her backpack and shoes were left at the bar with the bartender at the Golden Spike Tavern.
- [20:54]
Britt
Did Milwaukee PD do anything to search for her?
- [20:57]
Ashley Flowers
I mean, at a certain point, they, like, follow Billy's lead and start canvassing the bars themselves. But I think that their lack of action probably can be attributed to two things. Number one, 1989, Milwaukee was prime Dahmer time. Like, he gets arrested in 91. And listen, he's, like, not connected to Reese's story, even though we're talking dismemberments, but it's just proximity and, like, really close proximity. So interesting as we're, like, in Milwaukee, we were, like, going to all the places that, like things that happened, like the scene, the bar she was at. And as we're driving, the detectives, like, oh, by the way, that was Dahmer's house. Like, it's literally six blocks east of where Reese's boyfriend Chris lived. But again, just a coincidence that we stumbled across. And I don't think police at any point were ever trying to even connect Rhys to the Dahmer stuff back then. Even before he was, like, found.
- [21:46]
Britt
Right. Dahmer targeted men, like, exclusively.
- [21:48]
Ashley Flowers
Exactly. But still, again, this is, like, Milwaukee PD was zeroed in on that investigation and maybe didn't have the bandwidth to dive into Reese's case, as they should have. But the second reason that Reese wasn't getting the full force of the MPD behind her was likely because of who she was. Reese was an indigenous woman and a single mother. And she didn't just leave behind Charlie. She had three other daughters, too. Barbara, Regina, and Michelle. They were a little older than Charlie. They lived with different relatives out of town. I mean, Michelle was 11 when Reese went missing. Like, she was living with her grandma. She hadn't seen her mom since she was very little. So all of the sisters had vastly different relationships with Reese. But her going missing still deeply affected all of them. The summer that Reese vanished, Barbara was actually considering moving to Milwaukee to live with her mom and Charlie. So they had to have been, like, pretty close or kind of close, even though the relationship was long distance. But all that to say, I do wonder if Reese's scattered family played into this assumption that the police maybe had or were making about her life or her lifestyle. And then just add, on top of that assumption, just a general apathy toward indigenous people. As an adult, Reese was a member of the Bad River Lapointe band of the Lake Superior tribe of Chippewa Indians. And there is no arguing that indigenous people, especially those who go missing or are murdered, are treated vastly different than their white counterparts. And I can say it, but here is where I want you to hear it from someone who has lived it. So this is Reese's daughter, Michelle.
- [23:28]
Michelle
This happens to our people all the time. They have reports of these Caucasian women that go missing. Nobody reports about us. It's like we don't exist. They need to realize we're still here. But a lot of our women, we go through a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff. We don't talk about our families. We bury stuff. Our tribes, they bury stuff. They don't want stuff to get out there, but it happens. And there's so many of our women. Sorry, they're gone. Nobody knows where they're at. There's so many of our women that are found. And it's a shame that we have to go through this. We've been dealing with this for, God, hundreds of years. And it's. This is like something that really just touches my soul because it's sad that it's. It's hit my. My family. And we have to go through this. And, you know, and it's not just our race. There's also other races that are going through this as well. Our brown sisters are going through the same thing. We're all still here. And we need the attention just as much as everybody else.
- [24:43]
Ashley Flowers
But reese's disappearance didn't get much attention, and not just from the police. The press at the time wasn't really talking about this missing mother either. And for Charlie, it sort of seemed like nobody cared about her mom, who just up and vanished.
- [24:59]
Charlie
It was very confusing because I remember when I went to my aunt's house, and she was missing for a while. I remember being very angry and saying, I don't understand why they can't find her. Like, she's probably just down at the bar by our house. Did anybody go there? You know, have they looked there? Have they? You know, why can't they find her? I remember being very upset that I just couldn't understand why nobody could find her.
- [25:20]
Ashley Flowers
At this point, Charlie was living with her aunt, uncle, and their five sons, and that situation was starting to feel more permanent.
- [25:28]
Charlie
It was a completely different world there. I was used to it, just being my mom and I, and that's it. And then all of a sudden, I have five boys. It was very different from what I had known. And we lived in the country. I was used to the city. It was a pretty big shift. And then obviously not having my mom. But it was nice, you know, it was different having all those people with you. But I know they cared about me and stuff, so it was good.
- [25:54]
Ashley Flowers
Charlie had been living with her aunt for almost two months when the call from the sheboygan county sheriff's office came in. They had found Reese's body, and Charlie still remembers what that conversation was like with her aunt and uncle. When they told her, they had sat.
- [26:11]
Charlie
Us all down, and they had told us that, you know, my mom's remains were found and, you know, that she had been murdered. And I remember just sitting there and not knowing what to do. It was almost like I was frozen. And then I remember my aunt was like, it's okay to cry. I started crying. I know. I couldn't process everything. I remember telling my aunt that I remember I had to help her home from the bar one time, and maybe she was sick, and she's like, no, you know, somebody killed her. And I was like, oh, okay. Yes, that's right. So I remember just being, like, very confused and not totally understanding, but it was like, I didn't know what to think. I knew they had found her torso, and then I knew her hands and her skull were missing, But I didn't totally know, like, where they found what. They would share things with me, but I don't remember Like a lot of the details, my ancestors, they told me, they always try to be honest with me. So I don't know if maybe I blocked some of it out, but I don't remember them really telling me her hands were found here, her skull was found here, and torso was found here. Any of those actual details of, you know, or autopsy or anything like that.
- [27:27]
Ashley Flowers
Reese's skull would end up being found more than a year and a half after Reese went missing in the Vernon marsh area. And this is about a quarter of a mile from where her hands were found. But finding her skull doesn't progress the investigation much. It's not like it's in a new location that gives them clues. Plus, the skull didn't show any markings or signs of trauma that would indicate even how Reese died.
- [27:49]
Britt
Is it weird that they didn't find the skull before?
- [27:52]
Ashley Flowers
Possibly. But, I mean, Detective Hatch took me to that marsh, and we were talking about the possibility of animal activity there. Like, I mean, it is this big wildlife area, so animals could have easily moved the hands or skull, for that matter. Now, Charlie couldn't understand how anyone could have wanted to do this to her mom. No one in their family could. Not even Detective Hatch could, because everyone he spoke with during the investigation had just glowing things to say about Reese. Her co workers at the Bradley center, where she worked as an admin assistant loved her. Her friends loved her. There wasn't an obvious suspect. That is, until police learned about Reese's boyfriend, Chris. And there was something that, right off the bat, set up some pretty big red flags. After a night of drinking. Recovery is tough with ZBiotics. Pre alcohol, you don't have to choose between a great night and a great next day. Their probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. This is a proactive solution that wards off feeling miserable the next day. Instead of a reactive approach like drinking electrolytes or eating greasy food. Listen, I'm 36 now, and even if I have a sitter the night before, I have to mom in the morning, and they're not big. This is this teeny, tiny vial that I throw back and voila. Go to zebiotics.com crimejunkie to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Crime Junkie at checkout. Thank you Zbiotics for sponsoring this episode and my good times. With a new year comes a new opportunity to reimagine ourselves and more importantly, our wardrobes. Refresh your look with quality pieces and stay on budget with Quince. From their cozy Mongolian cashmere sweaters to their activewear that is designed to move with you during your workout, all Quince pieces are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to do that by partnering directly with top factories, cutting out the cost of the middleman and passing the savings on to you. You guys know I've already padded my wardrobe with so many Quint's items. Bodysuits, skirts, coats. Now it's even become my go to for gifting. I'm making it my personal mission to amp up my little brother's style. So I got him this like huge haul from Quint's. So upgrade your closet this year without the upgraded price tag. Go to quints.com crimejunkie for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crimejunkie to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com crimejunkies it was a few of Reese's siblings who first became suspicious of Chris. Like again, very quickly and for two reasons. Mostly one, he had been dating another woman at the same time as Reese and apparently he started dating this other woman in and then continued to see her through September while Reese was missing. And two, apparently his story kept changing. Like originally he told police that the last time he saw Rhys, she was biking away from his apartment heading south after visiting him on the day in question. But later he told police that the last time he saw her was in his apartment and that he never saw her biking after that. Which is like small inconsistencies but they stuck out nonetheless. And he also didn't have an alibi for the night that Reese disappeared. Chris originally told Billy and detectives, again, Billy is Reese's brother. He said that he was at work while Reese was at the bars. Now, I don't know if they checked with his work, but even if they did, his shift was scheduled to end at 11pm we know that Reese was last seen at 11:35, so he would have been off work at the time that something happened to her.
- [31:59]
Britt
Yeah, it's not really an alibi, right?
- [32:02]
Ashley Flowers
Also, it comes to light that Chris apparently sold one of his SUV's a few weeks After Reese's disappearance. And they tried back in the day to track down this car, which was a 1972 red and white Toyota land cruiser, but they're never able to locate it, which leaves them with a lot of questions about not only Chris, but specifically his car. I mean, without a doubt, Reese would have had to have been transported in a vehicle all the way to where she was found in Sheboygan. So, like, there's no way around that. They need a vehicle.
- [32:31]
Britt
And, I mean, what are the odds that Reese's cheating boyfriend's car Conveniently gets sold?
- [32:36]
Ashley Flowers
It stands out right after she goes missing out. Right? So Chris also told detectives that he, by the way, had hunted out in the vernon marsh before, which is where her hands and her head end up being found.
- [32:47]
Britt
And we know perps tend to dispose of things or commit crimes in areas where they're comfortable that they're familiar with.
- [32:54]
Ashley Flowers
But the thing is, they couldn't really tie Chris to Sheboygan or the nichols creek area where Rhys's body was.
- [33:02]
Britt
And on top of that, is there, like, a motive? Did he have a history of, like, violence or violence with her?
- [33:08]
Ashley Flowers
So, I mean, he admitted to slapping Reese one time, and Carla, the downstairs neighbor, said she heard them arguing sometimes, but she said it was like, normal relationship arguing. And I don't know what that means to Carla, But I don't think it was anything super violent in her mind. I think that everyone who's maybe side eyeing Chris maybe believes that if he had something to do with it, it might have been just to get her out of the way so he could date that other woman. But even if Chris wasn't violent, if she didn't suffer abuse at his hand, the thing I'll say about Reese is that she had known what life with an abusive partner was like. Enter suspect number two, Larry. Larry was Reese's most recent ex before Chris. The two had started dating after Reese gave birth to Charlie. And Charlie actually grew up thinking that Larry was her dad, but he wasn't her actual biological father. Still, he lived with Reese and Charlie in the early 80s, and he definitely had a temper. Like, he was not only violent, but also known to stalk Reese. And here is detective Nathan hatch.
- [34:14]
Detective Nathan Hatch
As we took a look at Larry, he stood out to us because he was abusive towards Reese. Not only did we find medical records of abuse Where Reese had went to the hospital in black river falls for abuse, she had, like, a broken rib or a contusion on her face or a broken fingernail, that kind of thing. On three Separate occasions, she reported her boyfriend at that time had abused her. But we also found out that he had dated a girl in Illinois who he was abusive towards as well.
- [34:44]
Charlie
I was scared for my mom. He was always very loving towards me, and I never had an issue with being afraid of him, But I was definitely afraid of when they would start fighting. And it was really hard because I knew how to call the cops right away. I knew that at a very young age of how to do that. And tonight's having a kid showed up.
- [35:03]
Ashley Flowers
But when detectives speak to Larry, they find out that he was living in Illinois in the summer of 89. And so at that point, they're like, oh, he's out of town. They pretty much just write him off.
- [35:14]
Britt
Okay, where in Illinois, though? Because this midwesterner knows that it's just a hop, skip, and a jump from Chicago to Milwaukee.
- [35:22]
Ashley Flowers
And it was Chicagoland. Like, you're right. But at the time, I guess the alibi seemed good enough. Larry's girlfriend says she was with him. So, like, that's kind of the end on Larry. But our reporting team recently got a hold of Larry, and he told us that when Reese disappeared, they had already been separated for, like, two years. And after he moved to Illinois, he says they didn't visit each other or really stay in touch. He didn't admit to any abuse, but he did say that drinking was a big problem in their relationship. And Larry told us that when he lived in Illinois that summer, he didn't have a car, which was like, implying that he couldn't have easily gotten back to Milwaukee. Now, he didn't explicitly say that he didn't visit Milwaukee during his stint in Illinois, but he did explicitly tell us that he did not kill.
- [36:08]
Britt
And I assume Chris was denying any involvement in Reese's murder, too.
- [36:13]
Ashley Flowers
Yes, and we tried repeatedly to get in touch with him as well, but no luck there. What I know is he told police back in the day that he didn't have anything to do with it, like, barking up the wrong tree.
- [36:22]
Britt
Did anyone ever search Chris's apartment or even Reese's apartment, for that matter?
- [36:27]
Ashley Flowers
No. And no. I know they did search whatever vehicle that Chris still had, but they didn't find anything in that. And I know that Reese's daughter Barbara actually moved into her mom's apartment after she went missing, and she told police that there was nothing out of place there, which, again, just, like, seemed like enough for them. Like, okay, thumbs up. So by this point, to try and generate some leads in the homicide investigation, detectives put out the news of Reese's identification to the local media. And over the next six months, a handful of tips come in. Dozens of callers are naming people in the area that they're suspicious of or saying that they might have seen Rhys that night.
- [37:05]
Britt
Is there anything legit?
- [37:07]
Ashley Flowers
Well, it seems like maybe some of the tips could have been. But again, I go back to like, what are the reasons this case didn't get worked? Were they overwhelmed? Did they not care, whatever. Plus add the fact that like, Detective Hatch told us that the area she was in that night that she went out in had this like, criminal element to it. So people were calling in with like all these like, names of sketchy people who might have been around National Avenue. And for all the reasons listed above, I think things just got like, lost in the shuffle or again, just like, not paid attention to, ignored, whatever. And none of these tipsters are even naming the same people. So like, every single one is different.
- [37:41]
Britt
And you can't like, prioritize who, like five people are saying it's this person. Everyone's saying someone different.
- [37:46]
Ashley Flowers
So they fielded the calls, they run down a few of them. And remember, running them down is no easy task since they were having to make. This isn't Milwaukee. Milwaukee had the missing persons case. Sheboygan has the homicide. So to go, like, try and find these people to go to the bars, like, they're making the hours long trip down to Milwaukee where she was last seen. Every time they want to run something down, they don't even have the Internet back then, you know what I mean? Right now the only super interesting tip is from a man who in a very roundabout and confusing way, calls in at like 2:30 in the morning one day and tells the dispatcher that he knows who killed Rika. He says that he was with his friend that night and they picked Reese up. And when she didn't do what his friend wanted, his friend pulled a knife on her. And.
- [38:35]
Britt
Wait, so basically this is a confession?
- [38:37]
Ashley Flowers
Kind of like a hearsay confession. So basically the caller tells the dispatcher that like, gives the friend's name, everything gives an address, which, by the way, the address is extremely close to National Avenue where Reese was last seen. And the dispatcher keeps trying to like, get more details about this like, murderer friend. And the caller says, it's so wild. He says, you're talking to him right now. And so the dispatcher's immediately like, wait, yeah, you're telling me you killed her? And then he's like, no, no, no, no, my friend did. And the Dispatcher asks, like, why he's providing this information. And he's like, I'm just feeling really guilty. And then he goes on to say that he doesn't want to face jail time. But again, he's like, I know my friend killed Reese because they were together at the Bush bar that night. And, like, that's where his friend picked Reese up. And then the caller says that about three weeks after all this, his friend told him what he did to her. So he's not even, like, he was there. So a detective follows up on this call. He actually figures out the name of the caller, and that phone number that he gave actually belongs to the caller's mom. But guess what? That is the extent of the detective work. This call basically, again, call it lost in the shuffle of other tips or whatever. They just stop investigating on that and things go quiet.
- [40:00]
Britt
So wait, did they rule this guy out?
- [40:03]
Ashley Flowers
No. Like, the lead just stops getting work.
- [40:05]
Britt
They just stop working on it.
- [40:06]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah.
- [40:07]
Britt
Okay, but if things go quiet, this feels like the kind of thing you'd like, circle back on when you have absolutely nothing else.
- [40:14]
Ashley Flowers
Right. But they don't. Which is like a clear mistake because in early 91, some more tips come in. One of them is anonymous, but says that Reese was seen at the Bush bar the night she went missing.
- [40:27]
Britt
Where the caller said she had been.
- [40:28]
Ashley Flowers
Right. Which is. And it's along the same strip of bars as everything else. And they say she was seen there sometime around 9pm and that she left.
- [40:35]
Britt
With a white man, potentially the caller, who pseudo confessed and implicated his friends.
- [40:41]
Ashley Flowers
And I know he's a white guy, so, like, it feels very freaking interesting all of a sudden. But when they're getting this new tip because that other lead got just dropped, they're not putting two and two together.
- [40:53]
Britt
Well, we know she's seen after nine as well. And then like, she's alone when she's last seen.
- [41:00]
Ashley Flowers
Right. But that doesn't mean that she didn't, like, meet back up with someone. So, like, I get what you're saying, like, she's not with him the whole time, but they could have reconnected. I think anyone in her orbit that night is worth identifying and getting more information from.
- [41:12]
Britt
Totally.
- [41:13]
Ashley Flowers
Though there is another tip that they get from a woman who says that she knows about a group of people who saw Reese the night that she went missing just before midnight, which is even more interesting.
- [41:24]
Britt
Yeah, that feels more promising.
- [41:25]
Ashley Flowers
Yes. She says that this group of people knew Reese and they saw her walking barefoot in the eastbound direction on National Avenue now East, would be away from the bars. But because this tip was third hand information, detectives were never able to confirm either the Bush Bar thing or this new sighting of her being with this group. So in 1991, that's when the case officially goes cold and all investigative work stops. And that's it for another decade at least. But in 2003, there's this like little blip, a strange twist in the case, one that I think throws everyone for a major curveball. Acorns believes that anyone can be an investor. That's why they make it easy to stick to basic time tested principles that give your money a chance to grow. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich either. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and join over 13 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com crimejunkie or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 2 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com CrimeJunkie the only acceptable.
- [43:13]
Britt
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- [44:17]
Ashley Flowers
So in 2003, Sheboygan county gets a weird call from another police department in the region. And they're like, hey, there's this guy here saying that he knows something about one of your murders. And this man is none other than the previously anonymous caller who first discovered Reese's body in the woods all those years ago. And I don't know what it is about here and now, but all of a sudden he's ready to talk. So he tells police that he was in Nichols Creek with his girlfriend, by the way, not his wife. They learn, like he previously said. He says they liked to go there to hook up. Also, he says he has this, like, low key, like, marijuana patch and he's gotta, like, check on his crops. So that could explain why he didn't wanna give the cops his name, like, back in the day. But police find this man suspicious for a few reasons. One is because when he first called in, he noted that the body belonged to a woman. Like, he said that specifically. I've seen the photos. I've seen the state of decomposition. I don't know how you could tell that.
- [45:25]
Britt
Well, you even said that it was determined that it was a woman based on, like, pelvic bones.
- [45:31]
Ashley Flowers
And then there's the fact that this guy was known, by the way, to hang out at the bars on National Avenue back when Reese died. And some of his acquaintances were the same people who may or may not have seen Reese. Like that group of people. Again, there's like, rumors about who they were. His acquaintances could have been that group of people.
- [45:50]
Britt
How did they all know each other?
- [45:52]
Ashley Flowers
Well, one of the men who may have seen Rhys around midnight or in the group or whatever was reportedly selling pills to the girlfriend of the guy who found Reese's body. And reminder she's with him when Rhys is found.
- [46:05]
Britt
That feels too intertwined to be a coincidence.
- [46:08]
Ashley Flowers
Right? You've got somebody who's like, at the place where she goes missing, and somebody who not only do we know they're familiar with the place where she was, they're the people who freaking called it in and, like, found her. But even though this is like a weird, like, tangled web, detectives, like, don't seem to be able to untangle it. So just as soon as it seems like this case is heating up again, it goes back on the shelf with more potential suspects added to the list.
- [46:36]
Britt
I almost feel like if that guy who Found her wasn't a part of what happened to Rhys. Then maybe he, like, heard about it and went out there looking to see if the rumor he heard was true. You know, like, maybe looking into, like, how legit it was, right?
- [46:52]
Ashley Flowers
And, like, he did have that little, like, grow operation, like I mentioned. And again, like, grow operation, maybe too big of a word. It's like a patch of marijuana out there. So I don't know, like, I can't shake the feeling that it feels more connected to me. I also, like, can't shake the feeling of, like, why come forward all those years later? Because it's not like he's saying he knows who did it, saying he knows more. But, like, finding this body's, like, weighing on him. You know what I mean? I don't know if I found a body in, you know, I call police and they found it, whatever. And I wanted to be anonymous. I don't think I would come forward.
- [47:19]
Britt
Years later and be like, I was the one who called it in.
- [47:22]
Ashley Flowers
But I have nothing new to say. Right. Oh, and one of the other things I forgot to mention, the reason I find it so weird, is that in this guy's original call to police, when he wouldn't give his name, he also said that it was dark when he stumbled upon the body. And again, like I said, like, this body isn't in a state that you could tell the gender even under fluorescent lights, let alone in, like, a pitch black field.
- [47:43]
Britt
Right.
- [47:44]
Ashley Flowers
So all of these tips are coming in, but for Reese's daughter, Charlie, it felt like answers in her mom's case were further away than ever.
- [47:55]
Charlie
My family didn't really want to talk about it, that it hurt too much, and I understood that. So I just kind of let it go. So many years had passed and they never found anybody, so I just assumed, well, that's kind of just the way it is. There's not going to be anything that comes of this. I don't think I was too hopeful that anything would come of it. So I just didn't want to maybe bring myself through that pain of not finding answers because it had been so long, and I felt like there was nobody investigating, like she was forgotten.
- [48:27]
Ashley Flowers
Over the next couple of decades, they actually reopen the case a handful of times when various tips come in. But every time, after a few months, the case just ends up back on the shelf. And this goes on pretty much until 2017, when Detective Hatch is assigned the case almost 30 years later. But even then, Detective Hatch is still working other active cases for the Sheriff's department. So he's only able to focus on Reese's in between those assignments. In that time, though, he is able to check off important things. Like in 2018, he sends a bone from one of the hands to a lab in Texas to definitively connect that bone to Reese. Then in 2021, Audiochuck enters the chat. So that's actually when I hired our reporter, Emily. She was our first reporter on my other weekly show, the Deck. And she was planning a reporting trip to Sheboygan County, Wisconsin, to cover some Deck episodes when she came across Reese's case. So she asked the sheriff's office for an interview about her because she could only find, like, one or two loan articles about this woman. And she was the only cold case in the county not on the Wisconsin cold case card deck. And we just kind of became obsessed. So Hatch said it was actually Emily coming along that really sparked him to go all in on this case. But, hi, in case you haven't looked at the Calendar yet, it's 2025. We have been playing the long game. Hatch had to do the unsexy part of investigating first, like digitizing the case file. But when he was ready to start the investigative work, there was one person at the top of his list that he wanted to look into first, and that was Larry the ex.
- [50:07]
Britt
I thought he was ruled out for being just across the border in Illinois during Reese's disappearance.
- [50:13]
Ashley Flowers
That's again, that's the point. Yeah, exactly. But here's the thing. So what I preached about Hatch is he's like, I want to do my due diligence. Like, I'm going to get the alibi for myself. And he sees what we see. Like, he can't tell if him being in Illinois was a, like, meaningful. And honestly, was that even corroborated by anyone?
- [50:33]
Detective Nathan Hatch
When we talked to him, he says, well, I couldn't have done it. I was in Illinois. I was in Chicago. So I talked to his girlfriend, and I was able to find out from her that she remembers the Pocan family calling her house, looking to see if they could identify where Reese was. Right. And he didn't know or said he didn't know. And she recalls, well, he couldn't have done it because he was home with me. But I reminded her that the homicide didn't take place, you know, within minutes or hours of that phone call. So I wondered where he was prior to that. And she said about three or four days leading up to that phone call, he was gone for several days to weeks to Me, his alibi.
- [51:12]
Britt
Poof.
- [51:12]
Detective Nathan Hatch
Went away.
- [51:14]
Britt
Well, that changes things.
- [51:16]
Ashley Flowers
Exactly. Because think about it. Chicago isn't that far from Milwaukee.
- [51:19]
Britt
Right?
- [51:20]
Ashley Flowers
If Larry had access to a car, he could have popped into town easily. Of course, Larry said he didn't have a car, but Detective Hatch actually found a driving infraction for Larry in Illinois that summer, which proves that at some point, he at least had access to a car, even if he didn't own it. Like semantics, Larry. Jesus. So even though it's possible, it doesn't prove anything. And Hatch doesn't want to get tunnel vision. He also wants help. So in 2022, he goes to a MMIW webinar where he finds out about the Bureau of Indian affairs, which is a federal agency that, in part, works to address issues like violence, missing persons, and other serious crimes affecting tribal communities. So he reaches out to them to get more eyes on the case, and they're actually able to assign a special agent to help with the investigation. This guy's name's Michael Potter. And together, Hatch and Potter re interview multiple suspects, including Chris, the caller who initially discovered Reese's body, and some men who popped up in initial tips. And they conduct a number of polygraph exams with help from the FBI. And of the seven people total that they try to give polygraphs to, four of them refuse, three accept. Of the three who accepted, only one showed deception. And I guess this was one of the guys who reportedly saw Reese around midnight the night she went missing. But then, after he, like, fails or shows deception in this polygraph, he then refuses to answer any further questions.
- [52:53]
Britt
And all these guys are still alive?
- [52:55]
Ashley Flowers
They are that. Which is, like, the wild part. We don't often see that in cold cases. Listen, we actually tried. We're not naming all of them. We tried to contact all of them. Nobody had any interest in talking to us. But anyways, around this time, detectives also finally follow up on that suspicious confession phone call from 1990.
- [53:14]
Britt
Finally.
- [53:14]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, the one where the caller told the dispatcher that his friend killed Reese after picking her up at the Bush Bar. So they went to this implicated friend's house. And, Bert, you won't believe this, but he lives not six houses away from where Rhys was last seen. So Detective Hatch actually took Emily and me on a ride along. I mentioned that before, and I'm not kidding. I could be standing at where the Bush Bar and Alcohol alliance used to be. Alcohol alliance is where she's last seen, and I could throw a rock and hit this guy's front door, which to me like, makes this mysterious friend actually a little more.
- [53:49]
Britt
A lot more interesting.
- [53:50]
Ashley Flowers
A lot more interesting. So when detectives pay him a visit in 2023, he tells them that he's not interested in being interviewed. He does admit to knowing the confession caller, though. And the cops actually play the call for him right on his stoop. But he wanted no part of any of it, and they say he became combative, so that was that.
- [54:12]
Britt
Do they go back to the confession caller himself?
- [54:15]
Ashley Flowers
They do. He tells detectives that it's not his voice on the old recording call. Like, he's like, you got the wrong person. Even though, like, it was pretty clear who it was. And then he refuses to take a polygraph. And when Detective Hatch hands him his business card, like, hey, if you change your mind, like, we would love to talk to you. The guy, he's like, I'm going to rip this up when you leave. So cool. And it's worth noting, like, where this guy lived back when Rhys went missing. It was just a half block north of National Avenue. Like, specifically the same cross streets where the Bush Bar was. So even he's super close.
- [54:48]
Britt
And again, I have to ask, how could this all be a coincidence?
- [54:52]
Ashley Flowers
I know. Tangled web, I told you. But it's like there are just too many pieces of the puzzle still missing. Basically, there's like a lot of smoke here, but they can't find the fire. So in 2023, detectives tracked down Larry again. They tried to talk to him in person. Now, obviously, he's not in Illinois anymore. It turns out that in the early 90s, Larry moved back to Wisconsin and had been living in Black River Falls with a long term partner. Now, initially, he agrees to come in, take a polygraph, but then he ends up changing his mind. No go. But by this point, some polygraphs given, some interviews, ripping up cards, Hatch is invested. So in September 2023, he gets Crime Stoppers to put up 11 billboards with Reese's picture and information. And he even gets some put up near Larry's house. Last we spoke to Hatch, he had interviewed about 45 more people in connection with the case. And while he was busy doing that, Emily was doing some of her own work on this case, but also on the other cases, because, like, hi again. We have the deck. We're trying to collect cases from all over for another weekly show. Like, you have to be juggling like 10 cases at a time. And I'll never forget this moment. We were in the office and Emily comes in. I'm like, in the conference room, and she's like, hey, I think Reese's case might be connected to a bunch of others, and I think there might be a serial killer in Wisconsin that nobody knows about except for me. In the next episode, I will unpack our reporting on two of the other Wisconsin dismemberment cases and finally attempt to unravel this twisted thread to get some long overdue justice for these victims. If you're in the Crime Junkie fan club, you can listen to that right now in the Crime Junkie app. And I'm bringing you yet another one of these 10 stories next week on my other show, the Deck that's going to be dropping next Wednesday, which means we're covering at least four of these victims stories now. And by doing this, I'm hoping it eventually leads to us getting interviews about all of these victims. Until then, if you know anything at all about the murder of Reese Pocan in Wisconsin, please reach out to Detective Nathan Hatch. You can reach him at his office line 920-459-3135 or at his email Nathan hatcheboygan county.com you can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com you can also follow us.
- [57:41]
Britt
On Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.
- [57:43]
Ashley Flowers
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an Audio Chuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve? Switch to Verizon Business and get more from your Internet without paying more for your Internet. Get LTE business Internet starting at 39amonth when paired with a business unlimited smartphone plan. That's unlimited data and with it unlimited possibilities. Start saving today with Verizon Business Ranked number one in Small Business Internet Customer Satisfaction by J.D. power. Starting price for 25 Mbps Internet Plan with saving plus taxes, fees and economic adjustment Charge terms apply for J.D. power 2024 award information. Visit JD Power.com awards while settling into.
- [59:02]
Britt
The new year can feel daunting, with Bedsure's award winning Striped Flannel fleece blanket, you can wrap yourself in comfort and take on all that 2025 has to offer.
- [59:11]
Ashley Flowers
For a limited time, shop our cozy striped flannel fleece blanket and save up to 15% off. Head over to www.bedsurehome.com.
- [59:20]
Britt
Use code SAVE123 at checkout to claim your deal. Again, that's www.bedsurehome.Com with the code SAVE123. Getting cozy in 2025 is as simple as one.