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WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
00:50:35
In 2021, we set out to cover the case of Rhys Pocan, a 35-year-old Indigenous woman who was murdered in Wisconsin in the ‘80s. But while we were in the field, we uncovered a disturbing pattern of murders with similarities to Rhys’ that were just too blatant to ignore. So, we spent the next three years working with local and federal law enforcement to try and get to the bottom of it.
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- [00:01]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
- [00:03]
Britt
And I'm Britt.
- [00:04]
Ashley Flowers
And this is part two of our look into Rees Pocan's story. So if you haven't heard the first part, please go back and listen, because we're picking up right where we left off when our reporter Emily realizes that this case goes way beyond Reese, and she discovers a disturbing pattern of dismemberments turning up all around Wisconsin. This episode will focus on two of those other victims and everything that we could find out about their cases from loved ones, detectives, tribal chiefs, coroners, and police reports. This is the story of Ray Tordalot and Julia Baez. By searching through newspaper archives and public records databases, our reporter Emily started finding more dismemberment victims in Wisconsin. In the years so surrounding Reese's murder, at least 12 people, 11 of them women, were found whose heads or hands had been cut off during or after their murders. Now, a handful of these women are still unidentified, and most of the cases have never been solved.
- [01:41]
Britt
All in different jurisdictions?
- [01:43]
Ashley Flowers
For the most part, yes. Which we're thinking is maybe why no one has kind of looked at this holistically before. And, like, when you see this, we haven't come across something like this. Like, who are you supposed to tell? I mean, like, we have the most badass group of women here at Audio Check doing the absolute Lord's work. But, like, try calling up the FBI and saying that you have a podcast and there might be a serial killer.
- [02:05]
Britt
Right.
- [02:06]
Ashley Flowers
Honestly, it's going to be a little easier because Crime Junkie actually is pretty well known now. We have a lot of law enforcement fans like, thanks, guys, but other podcasts have made fools of themselves by calling the FBI, and they end up becoming the butt of, like, Internet jokes. So Emily tried reaching out to various FBI field offices in Wisconsin, but, like, only ever got connected with a PIO who then never even returned a call or an email. But undeterred, she, you know, compiles everything that she's found into a document that she sends off to Detective Hatch, who trusts her, and in turn, he sends it to the FBI field office in Milwaukee. And here is what was in that document. Our list begins in 1982, when the partial remains of a Jane Doe are found in Caledonia, which is in southeast Wisconsin. According to the Doe Project, they're still trying to identify her, but the woman was likely between 45 and 60 years old and had given birth at some point in her life. Then in March of 1983 in Racine, which, by the way, is just 11 miles from Caldonia. A woman's arms, hands and legs are found buried in a backyard. She's identified as 51 year old Helen Sebastian. I have truly become obsessed with Helen's case and I hope to bring you a whole episode on her one of these days. But today's not that day. So seven months after that, in October of 1983, dismembered partial remains of a man are found in Petrifying Springs park in Kenosha county, a mere 15 minutes south of where Helen's dismembered body was found. This person is identified as 18 year old Eric Hansen. He's our only male victim. Now, in May 1984, in Vernon county, which is western Wisconsin, a woman is found lying on the side of a gravel road a few miles outside of the town of Westby with her hands cut off and major trauma to her head. She has still never been identified, but she was likely in her 60s and wore dentures. That's what they know about her. And her hands have still never been found. Thirty minutes west of there, in February 1985, 24 year old Terry Dalloway is found decapitated and on fire in a rural part of Vernon County. Now, Terry's case was unsolved, but there actually was a break in the case in the fall of 2024 when charges were brought against a man named Michael Pop. Now, he pleaded not guilty in January of this year actually. So like, developments in her case are actively underway. Unclear if Pop is a suspect in any other cases. If this is like the outlier on all of this, I don't know. It's still actively unfolding. Then in spring of 1987, indigenous woman Rae Tortelotte's dismembered body is found on the Menominee reservation in northern Wisconsin. Then in the summer of 1989, we know Reese vanishes from Milwaukee and then her remains are found in Sheboygan county and then the Vernon Marsh area in Waukesha County. The next comes on Thanksgiving Day, 1990. That's when the clothes and skeletal remains of a Jane Doe are found by deer hunters in Price County. Through dental records, they're identified as belonging to Susan Poopart, who is an indigenous woman who vanished from a reservation in northern Wisconsin six months prior to being found. Now, Susie's story has a lot of twists and turns. Our reporters became really interested in it while researching these cases. So that's the one I'm actually going to be covering on the Deck, which again is the other weekly podcast I Host. So just keep an eye out for that one as well. Also in the fall of 1990, a Jane Doe's dismembered remains are found buried in a number of plastic bags near Black River Falls, Wisconsin. Her torso is buried in one bag. Her limbs are buried in a separate bag. Her head is never found. And this woman is later identified as Julia Baez. And I'm going to tell you about her case in this episode. But after her. In 1991, a woman's body is found with severed hands at the Goose Lake Wildlife Preserve in Dane County, Wisconsin. Her hands had been cut off and are later found in Walworth County. She's laid to rest as a Jane Doe, but later identified as Doris McLeod. A man convicted of sex trafficking has long been suspected in the teenager's murder. Then, in October 2002, Boy Scouts find the skull and lower mandible of a Jane Doe in a ravine in St. Croix county, which is like far western Wisconsin. And authorities have said that they likely belong to a Native American woman between the ages of 35 and 50. And then lastly, in 2021, you heard that, right? 2021, a skull is discovered in Oneida County, Wisconsin, where. Which is found way up north, not far from Viless County. The skull is missing a lower jawbone. And last I heard, investigators are working with anthropologists to determine who it could have belonged to. But a source told us that they thought that this person could have been Native American. And here's the wild part. So that is our list that we're working with. One of the women on that list, the one I said I'm going to be covering. Ray Tortolot. She's Reese Pocan's cousin.
- [07:14]
Britt
What?
- [07:15]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, the connections are too bizarre to ignore. There really should have been a statewide task force or something. But because the cases were mostly in separate counties, no one was connecting the dots until now. So I need to step back from Reese's story and tell you about two of the other cases that we're going to dive into, starting with Reese's cousin, Ray Tortolot. So if you Google Ray, the first thing that pops up is this beautiful portrait of her when she was a Menominee tribal princess. From the people we spoke to, it sounded like Ray was super involved on the reservation. And the reservation is the last place she was ever seen, on October 14, 1986. That's when Ray, who was 18 at the time, went to a small house party. At the time, the Green Bay Press Gazette reported that there were six other people at that party. All of whom Ray was friends with. So the story goes like this. Around midnight on October 14th, Ray says that she wants to leave the party, and she gets a ride from one of the other partygoers. But when they get to her house, she doesn't want to go inside. So they kind of just drive around the reservation for a while and then they head back to the party. And then a little while later, Ray leaves the party again. But no one knows exactly when she ducked out that time or if she was with anyone when she did. I'm assuming this is all happening a little while after midnight. But honestly, the reports are like, they're really slim, not super detailed. So she walks out and then, poof, she is just gone. She never makes it home. And the next day, she's nowhere to be found. She gets reported missing to the tribal police, who act pretty quickly to put together search parties with canines. Like, they question everyone at the party that night. They contact other reservations and Indian centers, and they also search the house where the party was, but they didn't find anything helpful. So this search for Ray goes on for two and a half weeks, but there is just no sign of her. And around this time, the tribal police chief tells the Green Bay Press Gazette, quote, I've kind of given up a little bit, but I'll be out there looking again later on.
- [09:31]
Britt
Well, that's not exactly what you want to hear from an investigator.
- [09:34]
Ashley Flowers
No, but like, to his credit, I mean, he actually contacts the FBI for assistance in the search, but they basically tell him that they can't conduct a full scale investigation without evidence of a crime. They say there is, quote, nothing to indicate to us that foul play was involved or that there was a federal problem. Which is like, a frustrating response to me, especially considering, like, it is tribal land and that is FBI jurisdiction.
- [10:01]
Britt
Right.
- [10:02]
Ashley Flowers
@ one point, detectives put a call out in the papers asking anyone who might have given Ray a ride during the early morning hours of October 15th to call them. No one does. Which to me makes that alleged ride that she got all the more suspicious.
- [10:18]
Britt
And for me, I always, like, can't quite wrap my head around the statement, there's no evidence of foul play because there isn't evidence of not foul play. Like, what does that mean?
- [10:28]
Ashley Flowers
Is it kind of your job to find the evidence? Exactly, yeah. And it's usually the families, Right. Who are shouting that from the rooftops. And that's how it was for Ray's family. Ray's mom, Josephine, tells the local papers that Ray had gone off on her own before, but it was usually for, like, three or four days, and they always knew where she was. Josephine says that Ray didn't seem unhappy or distressed before the party. And apparently she had planned to be in a friend's wedding several days after she went missing. Plus, right before Ray went missing, she had just become a mom. Her newborn daughter Elise, was not even two months old. And listen, I know new momming is, like, the hardest thing in the world. I cannot imagine doing it at 18. But everyone who knew Ray felt it in their bones. She wouldn't have left her daughter. But as for detectives with no leads, they're, like, really scraping the barrel. They even connect with a Native American psychic from Chicago who apparently tells them that Ray is either dead or in serious trouble. And the psychic actually describes an area where Ray's body might be, which detectives promptly search to no avail.
- [11:32]
Britt
It's always so wild to me that psychics were just, like, regularly involved in investigations back then and why they write.
- [11:39]
Ashley Flowers
Him off so much now. And actually, in particular, this psychic, their name's Robin Fuhrman. And she used her clairvoyant abilities to help with a number of police investigations in Wisconsin and other states. She claimed that she could get impressions, basically of missing people. And I'm not sure if it's because of Robyn or because of something else that I don't know about. But around this time, investigators changed their tune finally to say that they do believe that Ray may be dead. But when asked whether or not foul play is involved in the case, they say, and I'm quoting here, yes and no. And before you ask, like, I have no idea what they meant by that. Investigators never really explain that cryptic answer, but they do tell reporters that they have several suspects, including the men who, like Ray, allegedly got a ride with, like, from the party, like, to her house and then back.
- [12:32]
Britt
Wait, detectives know who they are.
- [12:34]
Ashley Flowers
So they do. But no names are ever released to the public. In fact, I've never seen names in criminal cases so closely guarded. The chief of the tribal police chief, Keith Tortellot, wouldn't even tell us their names off the record.
- [12:49]
Britt
Quick question. Is Tortelot a common name there?
- [12:53]
Ashley Flowers
No. So here's the thing. So the chief is actually Ray's cousin.
- [12:58]
Britt
Would that also make him cousins with Rhys?
- [13:01]
Ashley Flowers
Yep. I think they were, like, first cousins once removed. So, like, this case is personal for him? I would say. Anyway, they believe they know who gave Rhae a ride again that first time. We're not talking about, like, we don't know of anyone who like after the second time she left from the party.
- [13:17]
Britt
Back to the party, right?
- [13:18]
Ashley Flowers
But they clearly don't have proof of anything because months go by without any arrests or new information. It's just like this flood of rumors. But those rumors must hold a little truth to them. Or just the sheer amount of time that goes by with no word from Ray finally holds more weight because four months in, investigators officially announced that Ray Tortolat's case has become a murder probe and that they're calling in the FBI. Now again, investigators won't say why they believe Ray was murdered. They say they have a suspect in mind, but just not enough evidence for an arrest. Again, names of this suspect or suspects never released. And then In April of 1987, two months later, detectives are finally able to prove their assumption Ray was murdered. The announcement comes after a hunter stumbles across a bra strap while he's out walking in a remote area of the Menominee Indian reservation. Which leads him then to a headless female body. Pretty much every article at the time about the discovery mentions Ray in some way. So she is definitely on investigators minds, but they don't want to say anything without proof. It's three days later when Josephine is able to identify the body as belonging to her daughter based on her clothing. And then a scientific identification comes through DNA testing. But that doesn't happen for 10 years. But at the time, detectives trust Josephine's word. Now an autopsy is also done and the manner of death is ruled a homicide. But Chief Tortolot told us that for a number of reasons, mainly the state of the decomposition and the swampy area where the body was found and the missing head, the coroner wasn't able to determine a cause of death. And honestly Britt, after this ruling, very little progress at all is made in Ray's case. And as much as we tried to dig into this case on our own, we ran into a lot of hurdles and a lot of roadblocks. For one, as Chief Tortellot told us, Ray's case file is very thin. Her investigation went cold almost immediately. And the work that has been done has been like extremely hush hush. Plus people on the reservation are hesitant to talk about it, even to Elise, Ray's daughter.
- [15:35]
Elise
When I was growing up, I really didn't hear a lot of stuff like that. I would just hear like people just say like, oh, you look like your mom. Or oh, your mom was a really nice dancer. And I mean she's. I mean they would just say that. They wouldn't talk about that. I think it it seemed like it was like that whole part was shielded from me, honestly, from everybody. So it's really hard to talk about everybody on the reservation. I want to say I think it really hit hard for everybody when that happened. I can see how much pain it is for them, honestly, still, like, you can still see it to this day, like it happened yesterday. It was a very touchy subject, I guess I want to say, for everybody, honestly, because even, like, to this day, where my mom was that night, I know where she was, but I know who was at the house. And if I ask, I asked one time, I said, I was like, can we talk about that? Can we talk about that night? And then they actually were like, no, I don't want to talk about it. And it's weird because it's me that's saying it, that's asking them. But I think the people who are at the house, I mean, those are her friends. You know what I mean? I think they carry a certain kind of guilt about that, and I get that from a perspective, I guess. But it's something that has bothered me a lot. I mean, if you really looked at how close this house was, where she was to where my grandparents live, it's literally a block away. It's crazy.
- [17:38]
Ashley Flowers
Maybe because of a lack of cooperation, maybe for a zillion other reasons. The investigation stalls, though no excuse is an acceptable one to Elise and her family. They don't feel like investigators did enough at the time. And she's heard that there was lost evidence in the case, and she thinks that multiple agencies didn't coordinate well. It seemed to her to just be a mess. But they didn't just mess up a job the way that you or I might screw up, like a spreadsheet. This is her mom's literal life.
- [18:09]
Britt
Right.
- [18:09]
Ashley Flowers
And you only get one shot at the early days of an investigation, and now that's lost. Investigators hope back then was that if they could find Ray's head, maybe that would give them some physical evidence to work with. But they searched for five months without locating it.
- [18:26]
Britt
Were her hands removed like Reese, too?
- [18:28]
Ashley Flowers
I don't know, because not all of Ray's remains were found. Police told us that it was only her lower half that was found and that. And again, we know her head was never found.
- [18:38]
Britt
And Ray aside, is there any theory around why hands and heads were removed? I mean, to prevent identification. But could there be some other reason?
- [18:48]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, we kept asking detectives that very question during our reporting, and nobody could say for sure. I mean, they pointed out that obviously If a killer was like a seasoned criminal, like you're saying, they might do that for identification purposes. It's also possible that this is, like, depending on, you know, who the killer was, what the relationship, the motive was, like, just plain revenge could be another factor. We also had some sources tell us that in certain cultures, it is a belief that someone can't rest in peace without being buried fully intact. So there could be several different factors at play. But to go back to Ray's case, we spoke with Chief Tortola and he said he still has suspects in Ray's case and no one has been excluded as a person of interest. Unfortunately, though, lots of people that he wanted to talk to have since passed away. And he hoped maybe for a deathbed confession in this case, but that's never happened. He says he did do some DNA testing, though. On what, I don't know on what he wouldn't tell us. But I think the what is the wrong question, because that's what I was getting to. There is a question that is far more interesting to ask. So the who they did testing with is one that I was, like, fascinated with because at one point Chief Tortellot said that he had his DNA tested to prove that he wasn't involved.
- [20:11]
Britt
Like the FBI asked him for it or he did that as part of his investigation.
- [20:16]
Ashley Flowers
Not clear. Like, we tried to ask the FBI, but they never got back to us.
- [20:20]
Britt
And Chief Tortolot said no one has been ruled out as a person of interest.
- [20:25]
Ashley Flowers
Correct. But he's also been working this case since the beginning. Like, he's the guy that's been heading it up from the tribal side for almost 30 years.
- [20:33]
Britt
Yeah.
- [20:34]
Ashley Flowers
So I feel like the FBI would have stepped in if he was a real person of interest. I don't know. And for all I know, there isn't even DNA evidence to compare stuff to. Like, that's something that they wouldn't share. It's all so muddy and complicated. And we were this close to getting an interview, like, with one of the detectives working on this case. Emily actually reached out to the detective who is directly assigned. He agreed to talk, but then Chief Tortolot wouldn't authorize the interview. And since our coverage has been ongoing for, like, years now, we even went back and asked again, and the detective said that he isn't allowed to do media interviews. I don't know if that's because of the shared jurisdiction with the FBI or why everyone is so hush hush on Ray's case, why Chief Tortellot doesn't want him talking. But it seems like they don't want people asking questions or, like, getting the word out, which, in my opinion, just hurts their chances of actually receiving tips in her case.
- [21:34]
Britt
Yeah.
- [21:35]
Ashley Flowers
So at a certain point in her adulthood, Elise gets to the point where she feels like she needs to take matters into her own hands, conduct her own interviews with Ray's closest friends. And honestly, her primary goal isn't even to get her mom's murder solved. She wants to just learn more about her mom and keep her name alive through conversation.
- [21:56]
Elise
I mean, it sucks because I don't. I don't have memories. I think we have two pictures together. I think that's all we have. And it sucks because I don't know what she was like. I don't know. I hear a lot of stuff, but I wish I got to know that myself. Not knowing how her voice is or I don't know, what was her favorite hobbies, what is she, like, doing? Like, because I don't know any of that stuff.
- [22:29]
Britt
Is that stuff her family can share with her? Didn't you mention something about Ray's mom?
- [22:33]
Ashley Flowers
So, yeah, Josephine and Ray had a sister, too, and that's who Elise lived with, and she had her dad. But Elise, she said she never felt like she could ask questions because anytime Ray would come up, like, it would just make everyone so upset. So she really grew up with her mom being this, like, taboo subject in her family. And, of course, we know the extended family is also reckoning with the death of another relative.
- [22:57]
Britt
And were they close? Like, I know cousins can mean, like, very different things for different families.
- [23:02]
Ashley Flowers
I know we don't know exactly how close they were as cousins, but they definitely crossed paths on the Menominee reservation where they grew up. Reese's daughter Michelle remembers seeing Ray perform at powwows or, like, traditional native American culture celebrations. She performed as a dancer. And I know that Reese knew about Ray's murder because of a tip that Hatch found buried in Reese's case file. A tip in Reese's case file about Ray. And it is chilling. The tip is from a woman named Geraldine or Gerry, One of Reese's friends from church. And when interviewed by police in 1990, Geraldine reveals that just two. Two months before Reese went missing, Reese confided something in her. And here is detective Nathan Hatch.
- [23:52]
Detective Nathan Hatch
Reese had stated that she was scared and depressed. And when Geraldine questioned her, Reese indicated that Reese was in danger. Reese confided in Jerry that she was afraid that she would end up like her cousin Ray Tortolot. Reese had commented Something to the effect that he's going to cut off my head. He already killed my cousin. Reese had supposedly made this individual really mad at her, and he swore he was going to do this to her.
- [24:20]
Britt
He who?
- [24:22]
Ashley Flowers
This is gonna eat you alive. She told Jerry a name, but Jerry couldn't remember the name.
- [24:28]
Britt
You gotta be kidding me.
- [24:29]
Ashley Flowers
I wish.
- [24:30]
Britt
She basically predicted exactly what was going to happen to her.
- [24:33]
Ashley Flowers
I know it seems almost impossible that investigators never connected the two murders, but they just never compared notes. In fact, we actually connected the investigators in both cases just this past year in October 2024. And that's when they finally sat down and had their first ever meeting.
- [24:52]
Britt
Wait, I don't understand. Reese told someone that she was afraid that she was going to end up like her cousin, that someone was mad at her, someone was going to cut off her head?
- [25:03]
Ashley Flowers
Yes.
- [25:03]
Britt
A couple months later, the exact thing happens exactly like she predicted. And no one looked into it?
- [25:10]
Ashley Flowers
Not until our reporting team came along.
- [25:13]
Britt
Ugh, I wish these different counties would just talk to each other more.
- [25:17]
Ashley Flowers
I know. So they're talking 2024. But, like, no huge breakthroughs happened at this fall meeting. It did finally bring together tribal police, the county detectives, the feds, the state investigative agencies. They basically went down the POI list in both Ray and Rhys's case to see if there were any overlaps. Unfortunately, no one knows who. Again, it, like, all comes back to, like, what is the name that Reese told Jerry? Like, who was she afraid of? But nobody knows. I do know that what comes out of this, like, big meeting, everyone coming together, is that investigators, detectives, all left that meeting with a new to do list full of leads that they wanted to follow up on that are still underway as of this recording of this episode. And the whole jurisdiction thing seems to be a major hurdle, though, not just in Ray and Reese's cases, but in most of the Wisconsin dismemberment cases that Emily and I found. And I asked Detective Hatch about these two. Has there been any determination on whether any of them are connected or suspected to be fully?
- [26:25]
Detective Nathan Hatch
No. And I've reached out to a handful of the detectives from some of those cases and got, like, a thumbnail of the scenario of what happened in those cases. I didn't hear anything that would lead me to believe that they are related, except for one that is really interesting to me.
- [26:46]
Ashley Flowers
Can you talk about the one that you think there's potential for?
- [26:50]
Detective Nathan Hatch
Yeah, there's a woman named Julia Baez. She was, I believe, 36 years old. I believe she was Puerto Rican. And she was a mother of four. And she was ultimately abducted from Milwaukee. And In October of 90, her dismembered body was found in plastic bags, garbage bags, in a shallow grave by mushroom hunters in the village of Brockway, which is in Jackson county, directly across the river from Black River Falls. So I reached out to the sensitive crimes unit at Milwaukee Police Department, and I was able to get my hands on a report. And as I put Julia's address, it was only just a few blocks from Riis, and it was only a half a block from National Avenue in Reese's direct path.
- [27:49]
Ashley Flowers
So that brings us to our next case. Julia Baez, known to most people as Julie. She was last seen In June of 1990, about nine months after Reese's disappearance. Unfortunately, we don't know the exact date that Julie was last seen alive because she isn't reported missing until nearly five months after the fact.
- [28:09]
Britt
Nobody noticed she was gone for five months?
- [28:12]
Ashley Flowers
Well, because of different relationships and reportedly Julie's prior drug use, her two sons weren't living with her. Them was with his dad. Another was in foster care. And then her 14 year old daughter Marisol was with her father in New Jersey. And then Julie's 10 year old daughter, also named Julie, was in foster care in Milwaukee. Plus, according to Julie's half sister Luz, the one who eventually does report her missing, Julie lived this very transient lifestyle. So Luz tells police that Julie made a habit of going off on her own and she would like, return weeks later. I don't know where she would go. And actually, Julie's daughters don't remember even their mom doing that. But apparently Luz began to get concerned because nobody in the family had heard from Julie in a while. She wasn't with their mom in Puerto Rico, and her apartment manager hadn't seen her around at all there. In fact, according to police reports that we got through a records request, it had been so long since the apartment manager had seen Julie that he actually moved her stuff into storage. In Julie's missing persons report, Luz tells police that she last saw Julie June 18, 1990, at a tavern about five minutes from Julie's apartment. And that Julie left the bar after having an argument with her boyfriend, Pedro. So police looked at Pedro. It seems like they're at least initially suspicious of him. But on paper, it never led to anything official. So of course, we did some of our own digging. The day that Julie went missing, her daughter Marisol was with her grandma, Julie's mom. And Marisol remembers the last conversation she had with Julie.
- [29:47]
Marisol
To me, she had said that she was going out with a friend. They were going to go out dancing somewhere, and that the friend was picking her up. It was a girlfriend of hers that she was always with, and they went out and she just never came back. So she went out socially the night she disappeared. Which is sad because now I see it like, you know, that was the last time, and I didn't even realize it was gonna be the last time.
- [30:17]
Britt
Do we know which is correct? Was she meeting a girlfriend or Pedro that last night?
- [30:22]
Ashley Flowers
So based on interviews that we did and then the records that we got, I actually think both stories are true. So we learned that Julie actually went out with her BFF Marisela at a tavern where they were regulars and a tavern where Pedro was known to play in a band. That's where Julie and her girlfriend supposedly went dancing that night. And the bar is no longer there, but for our Milwaukee crime junkies, it was at 15th and Mitchell. And it was possibly called the El Wanaco Lounge. And reports state that Luz, again, this is Julie's sister, it's actually half sister. It says that she was at the bar that night. So she tells police that Julie and Pedro got into an argument and that Julie left, never to be seen again.
- [31:01]
Britt
Was Pedro interviewed?
- [31:02]
Ashley Flowers
I wish I knew. Like, again, the police reports we got through the open records requests are like, super thin. I know police at least got a statement from Marisela, the friend that she was with that night. Obviously they got a statement from Luz, but they didn't give us any copies of like, the friend statements or any of the follow up reports about Pedro, if there were any. And so that was basically it. Like, there were some routine follow ups on Julie every few years to see if she had, like, renewed her driver's license or if any of her kids had heard from her. But at some point, with no more viable leads, the case just went cold. And I'm talking like, completely cold. No other follow up is done until 2012.
- [31:43]
Britt
And this whole time she's just missing?
- [31:46]
Ashley Flowers
Yeah, she's never found. But also, it doesn't seem like police were actually looking for her because so literally, there's this note in the case file in August 2012. Mind you, this is 22 years after she goes missing. And I think it's so bananas. I need you to actually Read says.
- [32:03]
Britt
On 4412 at 2:40pm Squad 2131 went to the address of 825 S. 23rd St, Number 6, to conduct follow up regarding the missing person, Julia Baez, at the address we found that Apartment number six does not exist. The building only houses apartments one through five. This was confirmed by the mailboxes and meters located in the rear of the building. There was also no baez on the mailboxes.
- [32:33]
Ashley Flowers
What?
- [32:34]
Britt
I know it's 22 years later, and also this apartment doesn't exist 22 years later.
- [32:40]
Ashley Flowers
But, like, what does that mean? Does it. Does it actually mean anything? And like, of course her name is on the mailbox 22 years later.
- [32:46]
Britt
Right.
- [32:46]
Ashley Flowers
So the thing I also don't know is there's nothing in the report to say why an officer was even sent there in the first place.
- [32:54]
Britt
Did they get a tip for some reason?
- [32:56]
Ashley Flowers
Again, they can't possibly think they were going there to see Julie.
- [33:00]
Britt
The note says, follow up on what I know.
- [33:03]
Ashley Flowers
And it's possible. Again, maybe someone all those years ago gave the wrong address for her or someone made an error writing it down or something. I really don't know. Again, as for why 22 years later, I'm assuming, I have to think someone called in and asked for an update or made a tip. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I can't make sense of it with what they gave us.
- [33:23]
Britt
Yeah, basically, they learned nothing.
- [33:26]
Ashley Flowers
Seems that way. Yeah. And over the next three years, there is this like, annual follow up with the case, but the reports are never more than a couple of sentences long. And in 2013, detectives call the number on file for Julie, but, like, it's no longer in service, duh, like, so they check with the Department of Transportation to see if she updated her address, but it hadn't been updated since around the time she went missing. And then it's the same story in 2014. And then in this 2014 report, the detective writes that Julie was reported missing by Luz in 2010, which is just like, straight up wrong. Yeah, but this detective at least tries to contact Luz unsuccessfully.
- [34:04]
Britt
I mean, did they try to contact her children or do more follow up with Pedro or the friend she was out with?
- [34:10]
Ashley Flowers
Not that I know of. And actually we tried to reach Pedro and her friend too, but no luck. So come 2014, Marisol, her daughter, decides she needs to put some pressure on investigators. Now that she's older and she can understand the situation a bit more, she goes back to the police station herself.
- [34:30]
Marisol
Initially, when I went to the police department, they're like, hire a private investigator. And I was pretty upset at that. And, you know, like to do your job, you know, because it's not like we can afford to hire anyone. I told him, I know My mom is in Jane Doe somewhere. I know my mom would not just come back and not see us or, you know, her mom. So he finally listened, and that's when he collected DNA.
- [34:59]
Ashley Flowers
And what do you know? Eight months later, in July of 2015, detectives call Marisol and her sister Julie back down to the station. Their DNA had been a match to a Jane Doe's remains.
- [35:13]
Britt
What Jane Doe? Where, where and when?
- [35:17]
Ashley Flowers
So, as it turns out, on October 10, 1990. So this is four months after Julie disappeared. A man in Black River Falls, a city three hours west of Milwaukee, was out foraging for mushrooms when he stumbled upon a garbage bag containing a human arm and leg. And then when police descend on this area and search it, they find more bags of dismembered remains nearby in a shallow grave. And it looks like it had gotten partially dug up by animals. Now, according to the Jackson county sheriff quoted in the La Crosse Tribune, at the time, most of the parts were bones, but some still contained some flesh. And after a thorough search of the area, officials told the papers that the only body part that they could not find was a head. And according to Marisol, this discovery site was near a reservation as well, just like in Ray's case. And if Black River Falls sounds familiar, remember Larry Reese Pocan's violent ex boyfriend?
- [36:20]
Britt
Yeah.
- [36:20]
Ashley Flowers
Yet, remember, he now lives in Black River Falls. But at the time, no one makes the potential connections. Police in Milwaukee and Jackson county, where Black River Falls is, aren't even thinking about Ray Tortola or Reese Pocan. They're telling local news outlets that the body was likely dumped by someone traveling through the region. Because this spot is a halfway point between the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. And they say, quote, people feel they're in a remote area. Plus, there were no missing people in their county. And I almost couldn't believe this when I read it. But the Jackson county sheriff said, quote, Jackson county is not the only place anything like this has happened. There are lots of them. There have been bodies found in Vernon, La Crosse, Marathon, and Juneau counties all over the state. You have heads without bodies, bodies without heads, bodies without hands. Jackson county is not by itself in any way.
- [37:19]
Britt
Is this his way of telling the public not to panic, or is he, like, trying to connect things?
- [37:26]
Ashley Flowers
Listen, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that the sheriff only said this to somehow make the situation seem less like a big deal, like, oh, don't worry, residents. There is nothing wrong with our county. This dismemberment stuff is happening everywhere.
- [37:38]
Britt
Oh, I feel way better now.
- [37:40]
Ashley Flowers
I know. And now again, when he's making the statement like, the remains are still unidentified. But I'm kind of shocked that it took so long if they were looking for missing women far and wide. Now the timing on all of this gets a little unbelievable because they only ended up doing DNA testing on this Doe, like, months before Marisol gets Milwaukee PD to take her DNA, which is two decades later. And what's also wild is that in all that time, Marisol had been looking for her mom. And she told us that she had seen that Jane Doe's name is Paige a ton.
- [38:18]
Marisol
It's so crazy, because I had gone into the Jane Doe network year after year, and I had seen the Jane Doe from Black River Falls. And I would always say no. Age would say, like, from 20 to 30. My mom was 36, Caucasian. Even though my mom was very light complected, she was Hispanic. And it also said she had a tattoo of a mushroom. And I was like, my mom didn't have a tattoo. Come to find out, the tattoo of the mushroom was the imprint of the remains on a mushroom field because that's where she was found. So it had imprinted, I guess, on the skin as she decomposed. And every year, I would see it, and I'd just keep going, like, no, that's not her.
- [39:04]
Ashley Flowers
For Marisol and little Julie, just knowing where their mom was provided a huge relief. Julie had gone her whole life thinking that her mom had just abandoned them. As a kid, she was in and out of 12 different foster homes until she was finally adopted.
- [39:21]
Julie
To find out that she did not abandon me and that she wanted me is a big pact in my life because I. I have a child now. And not having to tell my child that, you know, her grandmother didn't care about me because her grandmother did care about me.
- [39:39]
Marisol
I've lived my life with an empty piece of me, and it's because she's gone. You know, she was very caring, very sweet, very trusting. So I only have memories of her, you know, those moments, the hugs. You know that. So. And she was just always. She was sweet. She was just, you know, a good mom. You know, your mom loves you a certain way. There's nobody in the world that's going to love you like your mom. And just missing that kind of love.
- [40:13]
Ashley Flowers
Finally, with a name for their Jane Doe, the Jackson county sheriff tells the Leader Telegram that they're going to get to the bottom of who killed her. That before, it was hard because they didn't have the name of their victim didn't have a starting point. But all that was gonna change starting now. Well, that was in July of 2015. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, no further breaks ever come in the case. The only reason we know the little we do Is from, like, an incident report. We also asked for interviews with detectives who, like, have her case or jurisdiction. They denied our request. Emily did speak on background To a law enforcement source who worked on the case, but that source doesn't work for the Jackson county sheriff's office anymore. So, like, we didn't get a ton. And it doesn't seem like they ever even considered that their dismemberment case could be connected to any others, Because Marisol and Julie, by the way, didn't even know about Rhys pocan or Ray Tortolat's cases until we brought them up in our interview.
- [41:15]
Marisol
She disappeared nine months before my mom in Milwaukee. So close. Wow. I had no idea. The fact that, also a mother, also in the same area, they were getting away with murder. Just the fact that there's so many. There's so many out here and so many families, too, that, like, ours, just, you know, we don't know. We just would have to sit here and wonder and hope.
- [41:42]
Ashley Flowers
It's really only detective Hatch in Sheboygan county who's trying to shed light on all the similarities between these cases.
- [41:52]
Detective Nathan Hatch
I reached out to the Jackson county sheriff's department and found out that there was evidence, Physical evidence they had. There's nobody actively working on the case, but there's a detective that was assigned that case, and that my request to them was to see if there was evidence that had been sent or not sent. And then hopefully, they would send all that evidence to a crime laboratory to maybe identify any kind of DNA or evidence related to a suspect.
- [42:23]
Ashley Flowers
Hatch is also working with Jackson county authorities to see if anyone on rees pocan's suspect list matches anyone in Julio baez's case file. And he presented to the FBI's Cold Case Homicide task force about all of these Wisconsin dismemberment cases, Some of which were not even on their radar. So these are all cases. I wish I had more to bring you on, but we felt like the best thing we could do at this point Is to just, like, get everything we do have out there for people to hear, because maybe someone out there knows something about these Wisconsin women. And our one man, maybe someone is in law enforcement and they have a similar case that we don't even know about from that time period. And if nothing else, maybe Everyone can just come together and let Charlie and Michelle and Elise and Marisol and Julie all know that their mothers haven't been forgotten. That for this one moment, millions of people across the world are thinking about their moms. I believe there's so much power in the collective human consciousness. You might call it prayer. Whatever we call it, however we direct our intentions to a singular focus of peace and justice, I do believe it's powerful. Here's Reese's daughter, Charlie.
- [43:35]
Charlie
Obviously, I'd like them to find who did it and finally have that closure. It's nice that we found her remains and we know that she's not coming back now. And a different piece of you is always missing when you don't know who did this, why they did it, where they are, who they are, that kind of thing. So it'd be really nice to have that type of closure for sure.
- [43:59]
Ashley Flowers
And here's Julia's daughter, Julie.
- [44:02]
Julie
I just want justice. I think after we find who did this to her, I'll be able to feel relieved because my mom didn't deserve this. She didn't. Why did you do it?
- [44:19]
Ashley Flowers
Ray's daughter, Elise.
- [44:22]
Elise
It's not just my mom, that somebody's sister, somebody's friend. It's somebody's daughter. It's my son's grandma. You know what I mean? It's something that has hurt our family, and I don't know what that looks like for us to get over that. I don't. I don't know what that is for all of us, honestly. Maybe one day we'll get justice, but at the same time, me talking about it, doing this and helping other families, that's my own personal justice. Even if my mom's case doesn't get solved, at least I know that I'm kind of spreading awareness for other families that are in the situation and helping them, and hopefully one day that they'll do the same.
- [45:14]
Ashley Flowers
This idea of speaking up, of bringing attention to the cases of women of color, was echoed by Ray, Julia and Reese's daughters. Here's Reese's other daughter, Michelle.
- [45:27]
Michelle
Why does that have to be.
- [45:28]
Ashley Flowers
Our own?
- [45:29]
Michelle
Are the only ones that keep that flame going. Why can't somebody else help us? Because I know a lot of our people, they get tired, too. And that's sad. Thing about it, I'm hoping that when somebody hears, they listen and they help, you know, in any which way that they can. If it's news people, get us out there, too. Let our people be seen, you know, get the law enforcement out there as hard as they do for anybody, any other race. You know, Caucasians, especially them are the main ones. And you hear about them all over the news, you know, abc, NBC, CBS on the Night news and everything, you know, cnn. And it's like, well, what about ours? Where do we, where do we fit in all this? And if something were to happen, you see something, say something. If you see something ain't right, try to help them. Because some women, we, we don't say anything. That's the thing. And I know a lot of us think we're strong, but we're, we can only be strong so much.
- [46:43]
Ashley Flowers
Crime junkies, please help us get justice for Reese, Ray and Julia and all of the Wisconsin dismemberment victims. From the get, our hope was to tell all of these stories, 12 total. That's still our hope, but there's just not enough information out there. We've tried getting interviews with detectives in all of the cases. We've filed records requests with little success. But let's make sure that the conversation doesn't end here. I'm going to put the list of cases that we want more information on in the description for this episode and on our website. If you have any information about any or all of the cases I've talked about last week and this week in both part one and two of these episodes, or if you know anything about the pattern of dismemberments in Wisconsin, please reach out to Detective Nathan Hatch at the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office. You can reach him at his office, 920-459-3135, or at his email, nathan.hatcheboygancounty.com and you can also message us if you know something or if you're a loved one of one of the victims, drop us a line. We're counting on you to help us tell these long overlooked stories and finally get some answers for the victims and their families. You can find all the source material for this podcast on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.
- [48:22]
Britt
You can follow us on Instagram crimejunkiepodcast.
- [48:24]
Ashley Flowers
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around. We've got some good for you. All right. After all that, I'm ready for some good. What did you get for us? What did you deep in the. In the crime junkie inbox. What'd you find?
- [48:59]
Britt
Okay, this month's submission is actually a sort of response to a story that we featured on the Good segment before.
- [49:06]
Ashley Flowers
Ooh, full circle.
- [49:07]
Britt
Yeah, I don't know if you remember. But back in September 2023, we read a letter about the Freedom Canine Project, which is an Indianapolis organization sponsored specializing in training service dogs for victims of sexual violence and people with ptsd. Well, some pretty cool things have been happening over there. And this is a submission from Lydia Dear Ashley, Britt and team, I'm not sure if you remember us, but you featured my nonprofit organization Survivor's Companion, then going by the name Freedom Canine Project on a good segment a little over a year ago and wow, what a freaking impact you made. Not only did your donation make a gigantic difference in what we were able to accomplish this year, but your crime junkies showed up and showed us so much love in donations, follows, volunteering, etc. They really came through and helped us grow in ways I never could have expected. We are so grateful and hope you know what an impact you've made. Lydia, CEO and head trainer.
- [50:12]
Ashley Flowers
Thank you you guys.
- [50:14]
Britt
That is like a good for you guys like our listeners went out and donated, volunteered for this organization just by hearing some good. The good continues.
- [50:24]
Ashley Flowers
I love it. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think Chuck?
- [50:32]
Michelle
Do you approve.