← Crime & Justice with Donna Rotunno
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- [00:01]
Narrator/Announcer
Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case.
- [00:06]
Donna Rotuno
We're gonna crack this case and prove we're victorious.
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Tenney Garagos
Partners of all time.
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Narrator/Announcer
New friends.
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Tenney Garagos
You are Gary the Snake and your last name, the snake Dream team.
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Damon Charonis
Hit new habitats.
- [00:17]
Donna Rotuno
Zootopia has a secret reptile population.
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Narrator/Announcer
You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home.
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Damon Charonis
You're clearly working at Zootopia 2.
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Narrator/Announcer
Now available on Disney. Rated PG.
- [00:34]
Donna Rotuno
This is crime and justice. I'm Donna Rotuno. Harvey Weinstein's latest mistrial in New York is one I have been watching as I was one of his first lawyers in New York. Trial number one. Such an interesting conversation we're going to have today with lawyers that are involved in his case now and a lawyer who was involved in his case then. Two people who not only represented Harvey Weinstein, but know Harvey Weinstein very well. I'm very excited to have this conversation today. But before we begin, make sure you hit follow if you're enjoying this podcast. It's the best way to ensure you never miss an episode. We're going to get right into it today. Joining me is Tenny Garagos and Damon Charonis, two lawyers past and present for Harvey Weinstein. I'm really excited to do this today. This case has obviously been part of pop culture, legal culture, and the, I think the new culture of the latest movement of the moment. And so I think it's really interesting to talk about. We all obviously have a lot of inside stories and inside baseball that we can talk about here. But before we get into Harvey, specifically Tunney, I want to come to you and talk about. And actually, ironically, both of you come from high profile criminal defense attorney fathers. And so I'd like to talk about that a little bit first and specifically because your father was so nationally known. And tell me what it was like to grow up in a household where dad had such notoriety.
- [02:09]
Tenney Garagos
Well, that's a great question. Maybe I'll shift it. I think what it was like to grow up in a household where my dad was representing people and representing individuals accused of crimes by the government or the state. And what it was like is it was inspiring. My brother and I would go to his office every single weekend and that's when he would meet with clients. And so we would always be there with him. And we got to know the law office and what a small law office is like and how important it is to do this work. And so I consider myself so lucky to have learned from him. And I still learn from him every day. I mean, I talk to him about my cases every single day. And when I'm in trial, especially because he's always providing valuable insight to me. So I'm really lucky to have him.
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Donna Rotuno
I love that. I met him when I first took on Weinstein in the first trial and he was wonderful to me and I listened to him and a lot of the things that he does when he's talking about other cases. And I will say I listened to him talk about you giving the opening statement and the Diddy trial. And he was very proud. And as a girl who's close to her dad, it was lovely to listen to him be able to talk about it. That. So I'm sure it's fabulous for him to watch you. When did you start to realize that he had a bigger presence than just your dad?
- [03:37]
Tenney Garagos
That's a great question. No one has ever asked me that. When did I realize I was. I think that when we were. You know, I probably haven't told this, but when he was representing somebody and I can't remember what it. Which, which one of the, like, high profile cases that it was, but this was probably like 20 years ago and I came home from a tennis tournament and there our street was blocked off because there was a pipe bomb in our mailbox, like a homemade, like bomb that was put in there. And I think that was the first time we all kind of realized that what he was doing impacted a greater group of people. Like, people really kind of despised the work that he did or what he stood for. And that was really scary. But it kind of cemented in all of us that it's important that you do what you do without fear from anybody. And it was terrifying. But at the same time, I think it was an important moment for our whole family to realize that one thank God to the police who protected to protected us. But we were really proud of my dad for continuing his work and defending people. Even if somebody hated him or was willing to do something that dangerous.
- [05:09]
Donna Rotuno
Well, I mean, that's such a great way to put that. And speaking of being hated. Right. There was probably no one that was more hated during the first Harvey Weinstein trial than yours truly. Given the fact that I was the first female lawyer that signed on to this and the first female lawyer to take a bigger stance in the press. Because, remember, at the time of trial number one. And Damon, I'm going to come to you about this. At the time of trial number one, the press coverage on the case was really something we had not seen since cases like Michael Jackson. Since cases like the Menendez brothers. Since cases, you know, like, who else am I thinking? O.J. right. So these are cases that have taken over sort of pop culture, the news. Everyone knows about them. Right. Even. Even in cases that are newsworthy, there's always jurors that have never heard of these cases. Right. That's not the case with a guy like Harvey Weinstein. Every juror that walked in the door knew who he was and how important it was to not only stand up against the charges that were being brought and. And stand up in defense of Harvey, but stand up against this movement that started the. The MeToo movement basically was Harvey Weinstein was the inception of me to end times up. And so to try the case at that point in history, it, I think, was different in trial one versus trial two versus trial three. Damon, what did you think when we first signed on to it in terms of, you know, the way we were sort of received?
- [06:43]
Damon Charonis
Well, first I was. You know, I took a step back because you were handling all of the media very well. There was a great story where we were supposed to both go on Gayle King one morning, and we were sitting in a hotel room, or I was sitting in my hotel room, and I said, I'm not. I'm not going. Nobody wants to hear from me. Donna's handling this really well. And I was proud of how you handled it because, you know, you've always been the type of person who speaks your mind. You speak your mind honestly. You don't just say something. The things you were saying were not things you believed just because you represented Harvey Weinstein and, you know, you took a lot of flack, and you also had a lot of people who rallied around you and agreed with you. And, yeah, I remember at that time, you know, there was a lot going on. There was a lot of comments being made, and it was. You know, in court, when you're trying the case and the computers are clicking, you can barely hear yourself ask a question because of everything that's happening. But it was definitely a lot of media, and none of them were on our side.
- [07:38]
Tenney Garagos
I remember it because we were in New York and there was. The reporters were just not even trying to be objective towards you, and no one could believe that you could represent him. And it was. It's not until you kind of step back and you look at each of these individual cases, but it was. It was unbelievable how you were treated when you were doing a fantastic job in representing your client.
- [08:02]
Donna Rotuno
Well, thank you. That's very nice of you. To say. And it was really true, though, that the media, they never wanted to hear anything other than the narrative that they thought was going to sell the papers. And that was the part that was astounding to me because prior to Weinstein, I have had local cases that have been in the news. I had a couple national cases that were in the news, but nothing to this degree. And I found it. And normally I wasn't meeting with people at newspapers, right? They'd call me for a comment or they'd want to do an interview. But now, you know, fast forward to Weinstein and you have this media mogul, Harvey, right, Who was this movie producing genius. And Harvey at the time, of course, was out of custody. And being out of custody really changed the need for media to view this case in a different way. Because, of course, he was looking at what happens to his reputation when all of this is over. And so it was a. It was different than maybe what you have to deal with in trial three when he's already been convicted, he's been behind bars, and now it's a. It's a different focus and a different function for the lawyers when it comes to the outside world. And so I found it just astounding that we'd go sit down and talk to people at different papers. And the response to me verbatim was, there's no appetite for that right now. And you're thinking, what? No appetite for the truth? And. Right. So that's why. What's so important?
- [09:30]
Damon Charonis
What, what.
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Donna Rotuno
Go ahead.
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Damon Charonis
What blew me away was we would cross examine a witness in the first trial. We would do a really good job. We would call their credibility into question. Somebody from the press would walk up to me or walk up to you and say, man, you did a great job. I don't believe that witness. And what would we say? Why don't you print that in the paper? And they say we can't. Exactly, they say we can't. It shows you the cowardice of the media in that regard. They're not even printing what's going on in court.
- [09:56]
Tenney Garagos
They would all say to us too. I mean, how good of a job? But nobody printed it. No one would even click question that someone's credibility came into question. And it. Yeah, it's astounding. It really is.
- [10:08]
Donna Rotuno
And to be fair, I mean, when you look at the fact that now there's been three trials, and every time on some level, Jessica, Man's credibility has been called into question, right? Trial number one, one of the counts, Harvey was found not guilty of involving Jessica Mann. The second count was overturned by the appellate court. Trial number two was a hung jury as to Jessica Man. And trial number three only had Jessica Man. And we're back to another deadlocked hung jury. So right there, that tells you that her credibility was called into question merely based on the decision of jurors, the. The higher court, and then two other juries. So, you know, we. We can say that with, I think, you know, conviction. Right. The fact that the credibility was a major issue here, because what else do you have? And what I want to talk about is the. The. The differences in a trial where you have multiple victims and multiple charges versus the third trial, Tenney, where you were dealing with one complaining witness, one charge. And how is the preparation of those things differently? And I'll. Tenny, I'll come to you first. And then, Damon, I'll let you kind of backtrack to trial number one and how different that was and why this was probably a better and more fair forum for Harvey.
- [11:31]
Tenney Garagos
Yeah. And I can't wait to hear what Damon says about it. And if you could talk all about how trial one went with all of the accusers. But it's. It is such a different trial to have just a single accuser versus several. Because I just finished a trial in March where there were 11 accusers. And just like in Harvey's first trial, there were, you know, with the federal version of Molyneux was able to come into the case, which is just other accusers who are not charged. And then we went into the third trial where it's just Jessica Mann. And we were even just talking. I just talked to a juror yesterday, and she said to me, she said, I read about the other cases where that there were multiple different alleged victims there. She said, I think that probably would have changed things for me if there were multiple people there. And it's because the prejudice is so great to a defendant when there's multiple different women, that even if you can attack each single story on its own, the overall prejudice is so great to the jurors that they're overwhelmed by it. And that's ultimately what led to the first trial being overturned, even though you guys were able to win on the most serious counts that were charged against him.
- [12:49]
Donna Rotuno
Right. It really was astounding to look at that. Damon, go ahead.
- [12:53]
Damon Charonis
You know, it's death by a thousand cuts when you're trying a case like that. And I thought the first Weinstein case was almost like a RICO trial. Right. You had all of these witnesses coming in, you know, you do a great job against all of them. I think literally on every single day, against every witness, we won the battle. But it is just the totality of it where a juror is going to say, well, I can understand one person maybe making this up or being not credible, but when you get all of these people in there, even if they're not credible separately as a whole, they take on more power, to your point, Tenney. So it's very difficult. And as we all know from trying these cases and not the big ones, the little ones, where most cases are, when you have a sex case and there's proof of other crimes issues, Molyneux issues, that changes the calculus, whether you're going to resolve the case, whether you're going to go to trial, because we know how powerful that other crimes evidence is.
- [13:48]
Donna Rotuno
And Tenney, do you think that you can even get a fair trial? Or maybe not a trial, but a fair jury or any juror that has not heard of not only Harvey Weinstein, but the fact that now there's been multiple trials, people realize there was an LA trial, they think, oh, wow, we're back in New York. Do you think that even if they haven't paid close attention to what's going on in their minds, they still know that there's been all of this controversy and news and allegations that have swirled around Harvey Weinstein? And so do you think that even jurors who think they can be fair, they almost have too much information and that even though they're sitting there and I think the jury, jury said they were nine to three in favor of acquittal, do you think that those three people, if they really only were able to look at the evidence in that courtroom, they may have been able to say, you know what, he's really not guilty. But I just can't set aside all the other things I know about him, without a doubt.
- [14:47]
Tenney Garagos
I think that if that was. That if they were able to actually set everything aside, it would have been not guilty, just like every other person in that jury, including the alternates. It was so difficult. It took us a week to find a jury on a one count charge because people knew that he had been gone to trial before, knew he had been convicted, knew he was incarcerated, and this was, I mean, almost every single person that we spoke to, we actually put someone on the jury who was called as a juror in your guys's trial and we put that person on the jury and she was an acquitting juror.
- [15:25]
Donna Rotuno
Oh, wow.
- [15:26]
Tenney Garagos
But, yeah, but it Was. I mean, it was. It was extremely difficult until five days, I think, or four whole days of questioning jurors to find anybody who said that they could be fair. Even if these people had known that he had been convicted before, that he had started the MeToo movement, it's just, it's. It is really, really rough. And if we had had, and that was like the majority of our voir dire, to try to get jurors who would be able to put it aside or, or say, okay, we're going to put aside things that we know about him, but only take into consideration what happened in this courtroom. And the jurors who acquitted, they took that very seriously. All of them who've spoken to us after have taken that very seriously.
- [16:11]
Donna Rotuno
That gives me a lot of faith, actually, because I always do think that juries really do try to get it right. I do. I think once they're in that room, they take it very seriously. And so hearing that actually gives me faith in the system and the fact that there are people out there that even considering everything they knew in the background, they were able to say, the only thing that matters is what happens in this courtroom. And therefore for. I'm comfortable with this decision.
- [16:39]
Tenney Garagos
Yeah. I mean, all of. I shouldn't say all of them, the ones I have spoken to have all said that that's, that that's what mattered. They also, one of them said to me yesterday, I'll never make a judgment again about a jury in another case because I know how important it is. I know how seriously we all took it, and I'll never make that judgment ever again. I thought that was really important.
- [17:04]
Donna Rotuno
That's huge. That's great to know. How long did the jury deliberate?
- [17:09]
Tenney Garagos
Two days. How am I already forgetting two days?
- [17:12]
Donna Rotuno
I mean, that's a long time. Yeah, That's a long time on a one count case because ours was five and a half days. And, you know, I subscribe that. That's reasonable doubt right there. Right. If it takes you that long to make a decision, that's the definition of reasonable doubt.
- [17:28]
Tenney Garagos
And in the LA case, it was 10 days and then.
- [17:33]
Donna Rotuno
Exactly. It was. That's correct.
- [17:35]
Tenney Garagos
I think trial two was five days also. I mean, he's. I mean, try. Yeah. Trial two in New York, he's never had it or like, very easy deliberation process. And I think. Wasn't it in your trial where the, the note came out saying, what is consent?
- [17:51]
Donna Rotuno
Yes.
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Damon Charonis
Yeah, yeah. What is reason? Yeah.
- [17:55]
Donna Rotuno
There was something along the lines of consent.
- [17:57]
Damon Charonis
And I love the question the question can you define? Because in Illinois we can't. There is no reasonable doubt definition. So we always get the question, what is reasonable doubt? And I tell the judges the response should be, if you're asking the question, you have reasonable doubt, you know, well,
- [18:13]
Tenney Garagos
then we got it. We got that note here. Yeah, what is reasonable doubt? And exactly. And so what they said when they went back after that apparently was like, this is why you can't, you cannot find beyond a reasonable doubt. You just can't do it. And they were able to use the instruction. But I always thought that, that, that the note that you guys got, what is. What is consent? Was just, what are we doing here?
- [18:41]
Donna Rotuno
It's unbelievable. Damon, let me talk to you about. Because I think, you know, obviously for timeline purposes, for everybody listening or watching, Harvey Weinstein was first. The allegations were swirling about Harvey back in 2017, and they were all civil allegations. Harvey ended up going to.
- [19:01]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [19:31]
Donna Rotuno
You know, a rehab and gave the whole statement about, you know, yes, I'm a sex addict, as a lot of people do in that situation. And then the civil cases were coming in and then this me too movement, pink hats, time's up. All of these things start happening across the country. And then next thing you know, Harvey Weinstein, I think it was beginning of 2019, was, was charged in, in criminal cases in New York. And then obviously the day of our jury selection in New York, the LA indictment came out. So the day we're going to pick a jury, they say, oh, guess what? Harvey Weinstein's been indicted in Los Angeles. So talk about unfair. And if you think that wasn't coordinated, I have a bridge to sell you. And so, you know, that was just right. One more thing for us to have to deal with. So, Damon, talk to me about, tell everybody what that was like that morning sitting there when we're about to start this jury. We have flash mobs going on outside of the courtroom. And we now know that Harvey is charged again.
- [20:37]
Damon Charonis
Well, I remember we were in the office when we learned that. And you know, I don't believe in coincidence that frequently, as you just said. But to me, I mean, the thing that just really sticks out, that I think summarizes this the best we're doing wider. I'm asking questions and I hear this, like, from the. From the street. You hear this, like, voices raising. I'm like, well, what is this? And all of a sudden, like, it takes over the courtroom. And we were up high. You heard these chants like, Harvey is a rapist or the rapist is me. And I'm literally trying to ask questions of this jury. And they can hear this coming from the street. Of course, Judge Burke opened the window, I think higher. But, you know, that's what we were dealing with. That's what we were dealing with. We were walking into court. There were celebrities there. There were people sort of yelling at us as we were walking in. But it actually infected the picking of the jury. When you heard that outside, that's the one thing that I'll never forget. Because, you know, usually you're picking a jury, it's quiet. Maybe you hear a siren, you know, on the streets of Chicago. But this was something altogether different.
- [21:41]
Tenney Garagos
I remember I had a case that day in criminal court or in supreme court. And we've had a lot of high profile cases in New York. Just you see it around. I had never seen anything like it. For those who are listening or watching, it was a mob outside. It was impossible to get in the courthouse to begin with, but it was hundreds of people.
- [22:07]
Donna Rotuno
I remember.
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Tenney Garagos
I think I even have a photo of it in my phone. That's just not at all what a criminal case should be. Somebody who's fighting for their life.
- [22:18]
Donna Rotuno
Absolutely. And because we all know Harvey well, let's talk about who Harvey was to us. And I know Damon, you talk to him still pretty often. I talk to him once in a while. Talk to me about how you saw Harvey then and how you see Harvey now.
- [22:38]
Damon Charonis
You know, when we first met, you know, I think we were at Union Station or somewhere in New York. You know, I mean, he was, you know, sort of in Grand Central.
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Donna Rotuno
Union's in Chicago. Grand Central, Dave.
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Damon Charonis
I was in New York this weekend for Springsteen. But I'm back now. You know, we always got along like he and I always got along. Certainly there were times, obviously, when he was demanding and wanted things done. But, you know, I will tell you this. He could be very funny. He could be very charming. Obviously, our relationship was different than the most recent trial because we would go out to lunch with him, we'd go out to dinner with him, we went to his house. For a Super bowl party. And, you know, the thing that people don't understand who don't do this job, you know, they see these monsters, and they see these people that they have their sort of preconceived notions about. And that's not at all my idea of Harvey Weinstein. And I'm not ashamed to say it. We got along. We still talk. I try to support him as much as I can. He obviously had a great defense in this last case. But to me, you know, he was somebody who, from day one, denied these allegations, never wavered in that. And he's a tough guy. I mean, he fought. He's still fighting to this day. He never gave up. And my relationship, certainly now we talk about the Bears. I'm trying to turn him into a Bears fan. But, you know, we still talk about movies and things like that. And it just shows you as criminal defense lawyers, you know, I tell people I don't have. I don't represent a lot of bad people now. You know, I represent people who in their lives have made mistakes. Some of them. Some of them are innocent. And Harvey, to me, was somebody that I just got along with, always treated me with respect, and, you know, I was proud to have represented him.
- [24:13]
Donna Rotuno
Talk about your impressions of Harvey, Forrest, and I'll give you mine then, but go ahead.
- [24:17]
Tenney Garagos
So I think, yeah, I came into representing Harvey much later than you did. And so, as you said, Donna, he was out when you represented him. He was in when we represented him. And he's obviously been through quite a bit since his first trial. He's been through many trials, many health issues, and he's much older now. He's six years older than when you guys went to trial. Although the firm that I used to work at had his case when he was originally indicted. So I do know. I have heard of the demands of Harvey from back then, but I have found him to be incredibly insightful. Smart, funny, witty, and. And also kind of nice. So you just asked that. So I was just looking at my desk, and I have this. He got me a book when he heard My Husband's Indian. And so he brought a book that he really liked, and it's called the God of Small Things. And he said he'll like that, that I'll like that because of this. So he. He. He reads. I mean, he's brilliant. And there's just not many people that you meet or that I meet who have come from nothing and made themselves into be moguls. And Harvey is one of those two people that I know. And so those people are often demanding, but they're often brilliant and you can learn something from them. I have to say I have tremendous respect for Harvey and that I had been in the case for just a month and he allowed me to do the most important crossing. Not allowed, but encouraged me to do the most important cross examination in the case. And for somebody who is viewed as someone who doesn't respect women, I have not found that with him. He encouraged me to be a great lawyer. He said I was great. He wanted me to do as much as I possibly could. And I have tremendous respect for that. And I just think it shows a different side of him than other than people think.
- [26:20]
Donna Rotuno
Yeah, I felt the same way. I mean, he was. Is. Is still probably one of the most prolific movie producers and creators that one has ever seen. I mean, I have friends that joke that there's never been a good movie since Harvey Weinstein went to prison. And I think that that's probably true on some level. I also found him to be actually very deferential to women. I mean, he would be nervous if I got upset with him. And there was. There was a time when he wanted to go to a party because he was out and he wanted to go to party. And I don't know. Damn it. I think it was like six weeks before jury selection. And I said, you know, Harvey, it's probably not a good idea. I don't think you should go. You're going to end up on the COVID of the New York Post. And he promises me he won't go. And then I wake up on. I think it was a Sunday morning. I wake up to 487 text messages that Harvey Weinstein is on the COVID of the New York Post. And a woman was sitting on his lap in the photograph. And I. I was like, we're gonna pick a jury. Oh, my goodness. And what was it, Damon? 12 days. He wouldn't take my phone call because he was afraid of what I was going to say.
- [27:29]
Damon Charonis
Yeah, I was the go. I was the go between.
- [27:33]
Donna Rotuno
Yeah. So, I mean, I sent him the gift from Jerry Maguire, saying, help me help you. So, you know, it was like we had this really good relationship. I mean, he was very kind to us. And one of the first things he said to me when he met me and we were deciding if going to be a good fit for me to represent him. One of the first things he said to me at the end of our meeting was that it was clear to him that I was a good person. And having not known him and only knowing what I had read about and heard about it shocked me so much that he cared about that. But he truly did. And in the end, I've always said that I thought the only thing Harvey was guilty of were sins and not crimes. I will continue to maintain that. I've said I will go to my grave saying that. And I, I, I believe that to this day. Dame, what do you think is next for Harvey? Do you think that New York is going to go after him a fourth time?
- [28:27]
Damon Charonis
Well, one real quick thing. You know, we lost some of the counts in that first case, right? And we've all lost cases before. News flash. Criminal defense lawyers occasionally lose them. And, you know, sometimes you lose a case and the client gets mad at you, turns their back. Harvey never did that. Harvey was appreciative of the work we did, knew how hard we tried, and he sort of never turned on us. As far as moving forward, they can't try him again in New York. I mean, you know, unless. What's going to happen is Tenney's going to try it again, and it's going to be 10 to 2, not guilty. And then they'll do it again. It'll be 11 to 1. After the fourth time, it'll be a straight not guilty. I think that New York's done. He's going to be sentenced on those counts, at least the one count that survives. And then I've been following the California case. It seemed like there were a lot of great issues in that case. I'm not sure how responsive the appellate court was, an oral argument. But, you know, I think at the end of the day, he's been in jail a long time. You know, we share our thoughts, Donna, about the truth of what occurred and that, and that, you know, we stand by him. So he's still got a long road, but he's up for the fight. I just think New York is done as far as trials are concerned.
- [29:37]
Donna Rotuno
Yeah. Tenney, what do you think? You're obviously much closer to it these days. You know, Tenney, you and I and one other person can say we're the only people that have cross examine Jessica Mann. So we're in a. We're in a very small group of our own. But tell me what you think you think New York's going to do, and have they discussed it with you? I know they put out a statement, but do you have any other inside information on that?
- [30:01]
Tenney Garagos
I don't have any inside information. We are going to try our best. We're going to go to the VA's office and, and really try our best with make a pitch to say why they should not bring this case again. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars. There is no reason to continue to pay tens of thousands of dollars to try this case again. They have a conviction on Mimi and there's just no reason for it. He's been in jail for six years. There's no danger to the community and there's other crime in New York that they should worry about. I just, I think it would be foolish to try it one more time. There's just no reason for it and New Yorkers don't want it.
- [30:44]
Donna Rotuno
Take a subway ride. You can find 10 people to charge in New York. I mean, I'm in New York often and I can see crimes happening in front of me and nobody's doing anything about it. So there's definitely more places for New York to put their attention.
- [30:58]
Tenney Garagos
Exactly.
- [31:01]
Donna Rotuno
Yeah. Well, I truly hope that they let him be. Do you have any information on when the LA appellate court will come back on the appeal that was filed?
- [31:12]
Tenney Garagos
I don't. I like Damon. I think I've been trying to follow it and I know that they had oral arguments while we were in trial but you know, you never know how long it's going to take the appellate court to rule once they've heard argument. But they seem to have good issues in that case and so I hope they do take them seriously. And I hope that also your audience knows or remembers with all of the alleged victims in that case. I think there were five or so that were charged as victims. He was acquitted or a hung jury on, on four out of five of them. And so I think if the jury had heard the information that was kept out at the trial in the Los Angeles case, three of the jurors, I think, filled out affidavits saying it would have mattered to them and they would have, they would have voted to acquit. And that's really important. And again, that was the case that took them 10 days. They were out for 10 days trying to decide that case. So it's not this easy open shut case with Harvey Weinstein that everybody thinks it is.
- [32:13]
Donna Rotuno
Well, right, because consent can be this gray area and this is not, you know, stranger danger rape. All of these cases were people who knew him. All of these people were people who wanted something for him. Most of these people continued relationships with him long after the alleged rapes. Some claimed that they were assaulted and then saw him again and then were assaulted again. I mean it was. It was almost to the point where it would defy logic. I mean, some of my favorite pieces of evidence were, you know, well, I needed to get into the Soho House. So, of course, Harvey Weinstein is the person I was going to ask to be my sponsor. And you're thinking, really, your rapist is going to be your sponsor for the private social club? I mean, these things just defy logic. And I think that in a society that is willing to be less emotional, there could have been more. Not guilties and faster. But unfortunately, you take the emotion of these cases, you take the. Just the. The press of me, too. Hashtag believe all women. And all of these things that kind of had this, you know, just this dust up that happened. Did you feel that that sort of died down by the time you got to trial number three?
- [33:29]
Tenney Garagos
I do. I think that there's been kind of. It's been almost 10 years. I think that there's. We're kind of on the other side of it, and people can look rationally at cases again. I mean, even with that, there was three people who voted guilty. But I do think people are starting to look rationally and understanding that women have choice and agency over their lives. And exactly what you're saying, Donna, some of this conduct just defies logic completely.
- [33:57]
Donna Rotuno
Right. And I think the pendulum swung so far that the correction started to happen. I mean, Damon, we followed the Johnny Depp trial pretty closely, and Amber heard, and obviously that was a civil matter, but it was the same subject matter. And the. His. His attorney, Camille, was able to ask questions of Amber heard that were the same as questions I asked in the Harvey case. And I was vilified, and she was praised. And I know. I remember both of us saying that we were happy that that happened. Like, the press called me, and we're like, you know, are you upset that she's getting praise for the same things that you were vilified for? And I'm like, no, I'm happy that the pendulum is swinging back. And if I could have paved the way for that to start, I'm glad that that happened. And, you know, Damon, how do you think it was different asking the questions we were asking in 2020 versus the questions Tenney was asking in 2026?
- [34:55]
Damon Charonis
I think you hit the nail on the head. It's a different time. Right. And it happened quickly. Right. The pendulum, as you said, swung. You know, I think the courtroom wasn't as crowded I think, you know, the third time around. And I think that the first trial sort of opened A lot of people's eyes, because I think as it went on and on, people sort of understood that this wasn't an open and shut case. But a lot can happen in five years. The country's changed, right? Greatly. And I think people are just more skeptical as far as Johnny Depp is concerned. I think people liked him initially. Right. And so they want to rally behind him where somebody like Harvey was sort of an easy target. And at the end of the day, in both cases, you had evidence that if you are just using your common sense and if you just look at it, the most you can say is, I don't know what happened and I have a reasonable doubt. That's it. I mean, I can't see how anybody in our case or Tenney's case, Harvey's case, can sit back there with that objective evidence, those emails, those text messages, all of that, and say, I know beyond a reasonable doubt, a crime occurred. I just. It blows my mind to this day that somebody could say that, because jurors, they're not there. They don't know these people. All they do is focus on the evidence. And it was overwhelming in this case that this was a consensual relationship. So I know I'm banging the drum to people who are on my side, but that's what always blew me away about this.
- [36:15]
Donna Rotuno
Right.
- [36:15]
Damon Charonis
Well.
- [36:15]
Donna Rotuno
And we're objective people. I mean, yes, we're defense attorneys, but we know how to evaluate evidence. And the evidence itself just never led me to the point of, of a conviction. It just didn't. And then, you know, you read it on paper, and then when it comes out at trial, it's even better for you. And I'm sure you felt the same way, Tenney, because Jessica Mann fell apart multiple times on the stand. Right. And you're looking at this going, oh, my gosh, this is coming in better than I ever even dreamed it could come in.
- [36:45]
Tenney Garagos
That's exactly right. Yes, that's exactly right. And you're reading it. And I remember I called you because I thought like this and your cross is so good and what am I missing? And it's, it is mind boggling.
- [37:01]
Donna Rotuno
Well, I've always said. And you could tell me if you think I'm crazy for this statement, if Harvey Weinstein looked like Brad Pitt, he never would have been charged with a crime.
- [37:08]
Tenney Garagos
Yeah, I mean, that's, that goes to Damon's point about Johnny Depp. Like, people liked Johnny Depp. People would look at. Yeah, that's right.
- [37:17]
Donna Rotuno
Yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting. Well, I know all three of us wish the very best for Harvey Weinstein. I know all three of us say New York, let this go. You have gotten your pound of flesh. I hope that the judge sentences him fairly because I don't think he was sentenced fairly the first time around. Tenney, has there been any communication or conversation about what he may get on the Mimi Haley conviction?
- [37:44]
Tenney Garagos
I think there has been with the last team, with Arthur's team when they were negotiating. But I. But I'm not sure that. That I don't think there's anything been on the record about that. So I do hope that he is sentenced fairly. I think 20 years for Mimi made. Made no sense from what I've seen. I. It's hard for me to believe that that's what he was given on that count.
- [38:06]
Donna Rotuno
And so especially a guy with no background, remember no background.
- [38:11]
Tenney Garagos
So we are going to do everything possible to show that it should be. He should be sentenced fairly in accordance with all the other sentences for this type of felony. And hopefully, hopefully it goes his way.
- [38:23]
Donna Rotuno
And if I remember, because in front of Judge Burke, maybe it's true, easier for a judge. But if I remember correctly, Damon, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think we did a study of all cases up to the point of 2020, which I'm sure post 2020 it's probably even more favorable for a defendant, especially in Alvin Bragg's office. But I think that the average sentence was under seven years. If I remember correctly, when we. We did that study, I think it
- [38:53]
Tenney Garagos
was 5 to 8 or something like that.
- [38:55]
Damon Charonis
Yeah, yeah, something like that. And then, and then Arthur had had a case just before judge. The same judge right before that that was very similar. And I think the guy got like four years. So, you know. Yeah, I mean, remember what the judge said at the sentencing. You've got no criminal history, but this wasn't your first time, right. Something he made a comment like that. He did, you know, that he was sentencing him for all of these, all of these claims, all these allegations, all of these innuendos. And he made it clear,
- [39:24]
Donna Rotuno
well worth mentioning. Judge Burke is no longer a judge and was not shortly after the Harvey Weinstein trial. He was probably one of the. He let us try the case, but in terms of rulings, he was very unfair. And I thought his sentencing was very unfair. And apparently 14 people in New York who make those decisions thought he didn't deserve to be on the bench and he no longer is. So Tenney, I wish you the Best of luck moving forward and convincing the New York DA to let this go. And hopefully Harvey gets a sentence that releases him, at least on the New York case, as soon as possible. This has been fabulous. I know all of us will go out to dinner next time we're in the same city and would love to see you.
- [40:02]
Tenney Garagos
I would love that. And so great to meet you in person. And you as well, Damon.
- [40:07]
Damon Charonis
All right, thank you.
- [40:08]
Donna Rotuno
And Damon, as always, thank you for joining me. Damon, you have the unique distinction of being a guest two times on my podcast. So I am very grateful that you came back to join us. And we are all part of a a very unique group as people who represented Harvey Weinstein and proudly so thank you for joining me for another episode of Crime and Justice. Remember, we want to hear from you. Send us your thoughts, questions, or theories, and we will answer them on air.
- [40:43]
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Donna Rotuno
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- [40:55]
Tenney Garagos
Oh, hello, you who didn't set one foot in a mall and still looks amazing.
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- [41:12]
Donna Rotuno
Thank you.
- [41:13]
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