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- [00:00]
A
This is crime and justice. I'm Donna Rotuno. 100 miles an hour into a brick wall, a guilty verdict, and a mountain of leaked prison calls still have the Internet divided. Former FBI profiler Mary Ellen o' Toole helps us analyze the mind of Mackenzie Shurilla. If you love breaking down cases with me, go ahead and hit the follow button to make sure you never miss an episode. Mary Ellen, welcome to Crime and Justice.
- [00:30]
B
You're very welcome. Pleasure to be here.
- [00:34]
A
So, before we get into Mackenzie Scurrilla and talking about her behaviors and the way she has conducted herself during the course of the accident, the trial, and now her subsequent imprisonment, I want to talk a little bit about your time at the FBI. Tell us a little bit about your career, your expertise and. And what you do.
- [00:57]
B
So, currently I'm the director of the forensic science program at George Mason University. And prior to that, I was an FBI special agent for about 28 years, and approximately 15 of those years I spent in the FBI's BAU, the Behavioral Analysis unit. And in that unit, we specialized in assessing and breaking down violent crimes, particularly crimes like serial sexual murders, homicides, child abductions. And we. Part of that work was we would do assessments on perpetrators and assessments on victims to understand their victimology. And then a crime scene is like a puzzle. And at the end of the day, or at the end of six months, if it was a really complicated case, we would have to put that puz and we would have to assemble it with all the pieces, not just some of the pieces, so we would have a better understanding of the offender and the motivation.
- [02:05]
A
Well, I think in this case, there's really no case more fascinating other than maybe Gilgo beach, which we know he has agreed to sit down with the bau, the behavioral unit of the FBI. And, you know, that. That those stories are, of course, fascinating, if, of course, he's going to make. Take it seriously and, you know, give real answers and all, and all those things. But I think that there's been no other case in recent times that has taken over the Internet, social media, streaming, Tik Tok, Twitter, anything that you can think of in a very short period of time as Mackenzie Shilla. And it seems as if everyone is out there weighing in on what they think about her, what. What their opinions are about her. And of course, anything we talk about here today will be our opinions of the way that she has conducted herself. But I think there's probably no one with qualifications like yours that can actually get into really talking about the behaviors that we have seen, and I'm fascinated to talk to you about this. I know I have my own opinions, as do many other people out there, but this is one of those things I didn't even really know about until about a week and a half ago. And now I have just dove in and I have watched every documentary. I have listened to probably 10 different podcasts about this. I've read commentary on Twitter. And so I'm really excited to talk to you. Talk to me. I think my first question just off the bat is, do you think McKenzie is a sociopath?
- [03:41]
B
Well, I assumed that would be your first question, and you may not like my answer. But the only way to make the determination as to whether or not someone is the new term is psychopath. The term sociopath was thrown out in approximately 1968. It's still used, obviously, but. No, you're fine. It's still used. We used it to refer to learned behavior with an emphasis on social. Psychopath is a different type of personality disorder. And there has been a lot of research that's been done on psychopathy since the 70s. So that was not the case when it came to a sociopath. But the only way to make a determination if someone, what we call in the FBI manifest traits of psychopathy is for someone that is trained to administer what's called the PCLR Psychopathy Checklist revised to be able to see how they score on that test. And it's a sit down across the table from the individual. You ask them questions and then also obtain collateral information from people that know them. So it's just not a single focused test. And the reason that that is so important to be able to do that is because the term psychopath can be devastating to someone. And even in prisons, you can't go in and just order someone to sit down so you can administer that test. I mean, they have to be willing to do it. And then if they score in a way that puts them in the category of someone who's psychopathic now, that's in their record. So it's very diffic to be able to look at someone's behavior, even though it's quite egregious to look at their behavior and then put that label on them. And so I can't do that. But one of the things that I would do in the FBI would be to explore behavior. Look at it, look at the crime scene, look at what happened in the crime scene. And as an FBI agent who worked on a case, I would have all the police reports and all the Documents. So I had a significant amount of data. And what you have here, exactly what you described initially, is that you have podcasts and you have the Netflix movie, and you have interviews that are done. So the information is not reliable in terms of looking at it and saying, this is someone that manifests traits of psychopathy. But now, having said that, you certainly see in this variety of social media and movies and so forth some really interesting and concerning behavior. Does it rise to the level of being psychopathic? I don't know. It's just very concerning behavior. And then you compound that with looking at and listening to what happened during the trial and the nature of the injuries to the victims which were fatal, then it compounds just how concerning the behavior is.
- [06:56]
A
So one of the key points in this case that we know happened from trial transcripts, of course, is the speed at which the car was driving. The car was driving at 100 miles an hour for a prolonged period of time where the gas pedal was pressed down to the ground, and, you know, there was no letting up. And at one point, they're able to tell from the black box of the car that the car may have been shifted into neutral. And of course, nobody knows who did that. You can make. You can speculate all day long about somebody in the car maybe trying to get her to slow down. But the bottom line is, what we do know in terms of evidence that was garnered from the black box was that that that pedal was down 100 miles an hour. And what do you think that it. What happens to somebody? And again, this is just a conversation for us to sort of dissect this a little bit. We're not, you know, diagnosing her. We're just kind of throwing out some possibilities and maybe opinions here, because it. As when she first turns and there's video of all of this, she first turns down the street, she uses a signal, seems to do it lawfully. And then in a very quick period of time, there is this gunning down of this. This gas pedal, and the car is. Is like a missile into a wall. You know, what. What types of things happen to people to force them to either make those rash decisions? Because one of the big things here is that people are saying, you know, she was too into herself, she was too selfish, she was too narcissistic, she was never going to try to kill herself, which is probably true. But then they're saying, well, she wouldn't have been purposely driven into a brick wall. And my feeling on it is, is that from everything I've seen, she doesn't seem to be someone who has that ability to think through the actual consequences. It's like what's good for me right now? What am I going to do right now? Very reactive, very em. And I'm looking at it thinking, I don't think she thought about the collateral damage of her action.
- [09:09]
B
I think what you've just said is excellent. It really is. It's very insightful. And I'll tell you why. When we analyze behavior, what we have to look at are, and try to extract out from the behavior are the personality traits of that individual. But you also are looking at someone who was very young at the time, 17 or 18. And the reality is that their personalities are not hardwired until they're in their mid to late 20s. And their brains aren't hardwired until about the same time. So that period of time when someone is a teenager or in their early 20s, if we're going to make a bad mistake or do something really high risk or do something very stupid, it's going to be during that time frame because we're still forming our thoughts, we're still forming our personalities. So you have that sandwiched in with what is already there. So you've got somebody that's youthful making stupid decisions, not thinking through the consequences of their actions, maybe not caring, and maybe add 10 years onto their age. They would view the world very differently and make different decisions. But you're looking at it through that lens of chronological age. And then you're looking at it also through the lens of. But is there developing pathology there? And what is that developing pathology? Is there a recklessness, disregard for other people's lives? Is there a lack of empathy for other people? Is there long term anger or resentment there? So you have to look at both. It cannot be this singular review of just what the end result is. What did the offender bring into that car that night? Because all of that impacted on decisions that were made.
- [11:00]
A
Yeah, and I think too, and I would agree with that, and you look at all of the things surrounding what led up to that day, which of course are very important in determining not only, I think, what happened in the car, but what the intent was, what the purpose was, and you know, like you said, developing characteristics. Because I think that there's been so much shown to us about her social media, right. And the way that she sort of acted in her life. It was very much of a. A display, right? Look at me, look at my clothes, look at my, look at the number of followers I have. Look at how I'm becoming well known. And then you see that trait now carry on as she's sitting in prison and in phone calls with her mother, seems more concerned about the fact that her case has gone worldwide, her case has gone viral. And so you're seeing this personality trait that started off at a very young age and now kind of carries through while she's in prison. And what I find really important about it, and I think it will actually help people listening or watching this, is what do we tell parents about their young children, their use of social media, and how we make sure that we don't develop these traits in young children? Because I think watching this, I'm saying if I was her mother, that phone would have been out of her hand long before we got to the point of her sitting in prison. So tell me what you think about that, because I think that's a really interesting conversation and I think it would help parents that are dealing with teenagers right now and the use of. Of phones and. And social media.
- [12:46]
B
So social media, which really developed, started. Not developed, but started in. At about 2000, 2005, the impact on it, we still don't know. We. And what we see here is that an unusual or extended amount of time spent on posting videos, being involved, and being on TikTok, and having people respond to you, they're giving you positive reinforcement. Some people aren't. Maybe you're getting negative reinforcement, but all of that is shaping you as an individual. How is that shaping you? We're still not really sure about that. We see what her behavior is like, but we do know that with extended time spent on social media, where you're reinforced by your friends, you don't have anything that really offsets that. In other words, all of your spare time is on that, and it's becoming more involved and more intense over time. That's probably going to have some negative results. And what they are in each person could vary. But when you see someone like this young woman who is really focused on sort of showing off and being maybe idolized and being very almost superficial and where the recognition is coming from, you want to offset that with something else. You want to balance that out before it becomes too late, before it becomes really part of who they are. And I think that just understanding you may not know the details of how social media can impact a young person. So you almost have to accept that it does and then go from there. In terms of intervention.
- [14:42]
A
And how do you separate for parents who are listening, how do you separate being a normal teenager? Right. And Being involved in things that are the norm and, you know, making sure that you want to fit in and all those things. How do you separate that from behaviors that seem like they're going down a path of, you know, narcissistic behavior or behaviors that can exhibit, you know, more violent tendencies? How do parents sort of know the difference? Are there telltale signs that you can look and say, okay, these are things that you need to pay more attention to than maybe just average teenage behavior?
- [15:21]
B
Sure. Well, if it's looking at the amount of time someone spends on social media, and if it's 8, 10, 12 hours a day to the exclusion of other activities, you can assume that's problematic, even if it was with the best of intent. But there are a lot of resources that are out there now, and. And parents can certainly draw from experts in the field, and that could include people at the school, other kids, parents, people that are trained in mental health to find out, what should I be looking for? I think there's a real need to be open to that, to get other opinions, other people's observations and experiences and not hesitate to do that. And I think for a lot of parents, there's a reluctance to do that because nobody wants to hear that maybe their child is headed in the wrong direction. Maybe their child has problems. And I get that you just don't want to hear that. But to avoid something becoming really severe, your opinion alone may not be enough. It may not be sufficient. You may have to reach out for other people and not to label your child, but to just make sure you're looking for and recognizing possible warning signs that that may surface that you might minimize, you might explain away, you might unintentionally just simply ignore. You don't want to do that.
- [16:55]
A
Sure. And I think. I mean, most people at young ages look for boundaries and guardrails, and, you know, they need some type of parameters in order to sort of not go to a place where there's no rules and rules don't apply to you. And I mean, we see her in a vehicle on her social media, driving, smoking weed like it's nothing, you know, becoming impaired. And, you know, it's obvious that her mother followed her social media because she would like certain posts. And you're thinking, you know, talk about a reckless disregard for not only the safety of others, but yourself. And how about just the disregard for the law? And so looking at that, I feel like, you know, parents need to look at that and say, this is not just some cute, funny thing to put online. This is Something that you have to take very seriously when you're putting other people's safety at harm or your own. And so I feel like these are just watching this when I did, and looking back, I'm looking at this, thinking I'm seeing all of these telltale signs that if I were her parents, I probably would have jumped in and said, we need to focus on these behaviors and we need to address them, and we should do it pretty quickly. And I just don't think that was done here, obviously.
- [18:15]
B
Well, you know, it's applicable what you've just said. It's certainly applicable in a lot of different cases. And since Columbine happened, we saw how the Internet was really being hijacked almost by some of these future shooters who would really develop their ideas and develop their. Their plans. And they would do it online, and they would. They would attempt to initially be secret about it, and then after a number of years, then they would post online and they would brag online. And so it evolved over time. So we were able in those cases to identify what we call warning behaviors. Now, this is different behavior, but it just still shows the immense influence of the Internet and the power of the Internet, and how it influences all of us, not just young people, but in particular, young people who are still working to figure out who I am, what do I want to be in life, what do I like, what do I don't like. That age is an extremely impressionable age. And so the idea that someone would be allowed to spend hours and hours and hours just focused on being online and focus on being kind of the center of attention is very likely going to be problematic for the years ahead. But again, I would encourage parents, grandparents, others to, number one, just understand that they don't have to be critical of their child, but just understand that may be a period where your child won't ask for help, but they do need it.
- [19:48]
A
Let's talk about the issue of memory loss, because, of course, she claims that she remembers nothing that happened, but right when the police did extract her from the car, she was able to say who was in the car. So she knew who was in the car. And it seems that the only thing that she truly doesn't remember is what happened in that very short period of time when the car crashed into the wall. But then we see her interview on the Netflix documentary, and she says, I had no intent. I'm not that kind of person. I had no intent. And, you know, that's what I'm sticking to, basically. And then looks to her lawyer off camera and says, I said that. Right, right. About the intent part. So, I mean, you know, I'm wondering, is there real memory loss here? Could there be? Do you think this is performative? Because I'm looking at it, thinking, I'm not so sure. I buy this. I remember nothing, especially because in one of the documentaries on Hulu, the police come in, they have their body cameras rolling. They ask her what happened, and she says to her mother in some Carney language, literally almost like a pig Latin language, she says to her mother, and they have it translated. Can't we just tell them I had a seizure? And so they have this translated. So there's clearly some issue here with regard to whether or not she remembers. And I'm wondering what you can talk to us about regarding memory loss and whether or not memory losses could be a real thing here. Would the hospital have been able to make some diagnoses kind of talk? Walk me through that. Because I have a hard time buying this very, you know, short period of time that she seems to remember nothing.
- [21:38]
B
Well, the way I would answer that question, which is really another excellent question, is I would go to the physicians, to a medical doctor with an expertise, particularly in trauma, specifically in head trauma, and say, here's the fact pattern. Now, can this. What's your opinion on whether or not someone who's been in an accident or with these facts, how likely is it that they would have suffered from some kind of memory loss? And maybe how long would that have lasted? And that's what I was surprised I really hadn't heard yet is what a medical expert would have opined on something like that. That's what we would go to in the FBI. We wouldn't sit around and ask one another, do you think this person had a memory loss? How long do you think it lasted? Was it specific to just the accident or was it just f. Was it made up? What would be an expert's opinion on that? And the reason that we do that is because as profilers, we don't have an expertise in everything. And so we really do have to pull from other areas, whether it's medical or psychological. We have to ask the people that work in the field exactly what they think and what their opinion would be. And then we use that opinion. We use that opinion to say it's more than likely that there was a memory loss there. It could have been short term. Or based on the injury patterns, we would say based on what the medical expert told us, it's not likely that there was a memory loss.
- [23:20]
A
Well, and I kind of came to the conclusion that I didn't think a lot of it was likely just because I didn't think you could have loss and then say, I had no intent. I also thought that given the fact that her mother testified at trial that she suffered from this syndrome called pots, where you could pass out or lose consciousness at any given moment, I didn't find that very believable. Not that she had it. She may have had it, but I didn't find it very believable that, number one, if she did have it, you're letting your child just drive around in cars. And number two, I thought that if they were, would have been able to document that medically, than a medical expert would have gotten on the stand. And I know that now as part of the appeal, they're arguing that her lawyer didn't call an expert. And I'm thinking that's probably because there was no expert out there that could back up what they are trying to say. And he kind of put the mother up there to say, yes, she's been diagnosed with this as a way to maybe garner and generate some thoughts of reasonable doubt, but that there will really was no way to prove because, again, she went right to the hospital after this accident. She spent. Spent significant time in the hospital. She was treated, tested, had significant injuries. So my guess is if she had suffered some type of episode, that's something that they would have been able to diagnose while she was being treated. So I. I looked at that as sort of. They just didn't have a medical diagnosis that was going to help them.
- [24:52]
B
You may be exactly right on that. And I would have thought, after a traumatic injury like that that likely involved her head, that there would have been assessments that would have been done upon arrival in the trauma center and then throughout her stay at the hospital. And those. Those, as far as I could tell, were not. Were not discussed.
- [25:16]
A
And how do you determine when, you know, if you sat down and talked to this girl, what types of things would you ask to sort of determine whether or not that this was an impulsive act of just rage or that it was an actual premeditated murder, you know, suicide attempt? How are there certain things you can ask to ascertain that? And obviously you would look at those things in conjunction with whatever the evidence in the case showed. But are there certain assessments you would make to try to. To make that determination, or is that not possible?
- [25:55]
B
Sure. And you use the right words. It's an assessment. So we want to make sure we don't use, like a personal opinion, but rather an assessment based on all the available information. So you laid that out perfectly. So one thing that I found is really. You're welcome. The one thing I found that is really very helpful when you sit down and talk to somebody is you want to give them the floor. You don't want to pepper them with, you know, this is my first question. This is my second one. This is my third one. You really want them to be given the opportunity to explain in their own words. If that takes 45 minutes, then so be it. If it takes an hour, then so be it. Because by doing that, what you can see is where they conflict in what they say, where they contradict themselves, where their emotions change, where they become somewhat flippant, where they become angry with you. So you really want to give them the opportunity initially to explain what they think happened, to explain what they were involved in, what they were doing right before the accident, what were they thinking, what were they feeling? But give them the floor. You can lay the groundwork and then give them the floor. You can then go back and ask for clarification. But when you pepper someone with questions, you're pushing them into the corner. You want them to go in, and that may be the wrong corner.
- [27:24]
A
And I'm assuming, obviously you said you watched the. The Netflix interview with her on the crash that just came out, but what did you notice about her? Did you notice anything about that interview that struck you in any way? What observations did you make?
- [27:42]
B
One of the things that struck me initially was the composure was like a. Almost like a different person, was kind of really in charge of her words, seemed to be much more mature, far less emotional, wanted to come across as someone that was in control of their emotions, someone that knew there were certain things that would be important to reinforce, which was the whole idea of remorse. It was. This was someone that I think may have had some practice before that interview so that they were able to come across in a way that suggested that they were thoughtful, considerate, and empathic. Now, which one is the real person? Well, that still remains to be seen. But I do think that that that interview did suggest some practice beforehand.
- [28:46]
A
Well, especially when you compare it to jail phone calls between her and her mother, her family, you compare it to social media posts. And granted, she's a little bit older now, and we talked about the fact that sometimes the passage of time, people change, but there definitely doesn't seem to be a change in her calls with her mother in comparison to her behavior prior to this it seems that this jail interview was really the one where there was some changes. And what I thought was really interesting was they left the part in where she was asking her lawyer about intent. And I felt like that was done purposefully by the makers of the documentary to sort of show that that was sort of the tone of it, because it seems to me that the lawyer was kind of dictating that, and that's why it seemed rehearsed, performative, and maybe not who she really normally is when we listen to her on. On jail calls and in other forms.
- [29:46]
B
Yeah, I agree with you on that. It did raise questions. I would like to have heard other phone calls with other people that she's had just to see what her behaviors are like when she's talking with other people on the phone. That would also, I think, give us a much better idea of what we see when she's talking to her mom, because that relationship is going to be extremely unique, and it may be a lot more presumptive on her part that she can push a lot of boundaries. It would be good to see other phone calls and with other people, whether they're family members or friends, to see. Do we see some of the same traits manifest in those conversations?
- [30:31]
A
Yeah, I think you're. I think you're spot on because her relationship with mom seems very codependent in many ways. And of course you can understand. I mean, you can understand her mother. She. Mom, this is your daughter. You're going to do anything you can do to try to appease, calm, comfort her in any way. But at the same time, you're also aware because normally on those jail calls, every minute or so, they're reminding you that you are being recorded. So this is something that they know very well. The likelihood of this getting out is large. And, you know, they're. They're out there basically doing it anyway. And sometimes mom kind of tries to temper her, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So I think you're right. It would be interesting to listen to some of the other calls that she has with other people. But it seems like she talks to. Talks to mom quite, quite often. And in those calls, I think one of the. Really, one of the things I think is just astounding is she actually claims that she doesn't need any rehabilitation. And talk to me a little bit about the behavior of those who believe that and how that hurts you when you are up for parole, because she was sentenced 15 to life, and. And at 15 years, she will be up for parole. And Talk about how that could affect her and having that attitude that, you know, she's perfect and everything's fine and she doesn't need to be rehabilitated.
- [31:57]
B
So if, if the parole board, if they do ask a question like that, would, would want to say, can you explain what, what you think rehabilitation is? And some people that come up for parole can explain, well, well, I think rehabilitation is having a shrink come in and try to change who I am. And that's what I thought. And I didn't want any part of that which would make sense. I think a lot of us would find that problematic. If a person says, which most people will not say, is that I think I'm perfect and I don't need to change in any way and I don't see anything wrong with what I did, then you have a problem. So again, when you have someone that's in their early 20s and they're rejecting rehabilitation, my next question would be, but what do you think rehabilitation is? What's your understanding of how it could help you? What's your understanding of how it could hurt you, at least in your eyes? Why would you not want it? So I'd want to explore that. Before I knew that she was rejecting outright any efforts to help her take maybe a real in depth look at her behavior and develop a better understanding of her behavior. Because a lot of people just reject the word rehabilitation outright. It's like, that's not for me. No, thank you. And not really know what it is.
- [33:27]
A
Right. Yeah, that's fair. Absolutely fair. I think also her reaction, you know, her documented reaction to the deaths of Dominic and Davion, who are the real victims here. And, you know, poor Davion and his family. This poor young man was collateral damage in a very toxic relationship. And although they both lost their lives, for his family, it's even more senseless. It's just a very sad situation. But did anything stand out to you in terms of the way she has responded not only from the very beginning, but even until now on phone calls sort of about their deaths and the way she talks about them and the way she talks about the way the court system sort of talked about them. And so tell, tell me if you have any thoughts on that.
- [34:17]
B
I certainly would have liked to have seen more regret, more empathy, more remorse for the two young men. Is she somebody that is really deficit, has a deficit in those qualities and traits? I would say let's take a look at her at 29 and 30 years of age to see if we can get a better idea of her level of empathy and remorse and regret right now, it's still too confusing to me. It takes your breath away because these two young men died a terrible death. But to split it apart and say that lack of empathy is 100% part of this young woman's personality and it will be there with her for the rest of her life, or this is someone that still has a lot of psychological growth ahead of her, and at age 30 or 40, we're going to see more empathy develop. And I've seen that when I've gone into prisons to interview people. When you interview them in their early 20s, you can. With some, not all, but with some, you can hear a lot of bravado, no remorse, no empathy. You go back 10 years later, and you're talking to a different person. So I think that would be hopefully, yeah. And again, because I've seen that evolution, then I'd want to make sure that I'm dealing with someone that is not deficient in empathy but hasn't grown into it yet.
- [36:12]
A
Well, this is something I could talk to you about all day. I have a couple more questions before we wrap up. I did find the Halloween costume she wore just three months after the deaths of these two young men, where she's basically like, you know, a zombie and dressing as a, like, dead person or a skeleton to be unbelievably tone deaf. And what do you. Do you have any thoughts on those costumes? Does that say anything about personality traits of hers? Does that show a complete lack of empathy? Is it just a complete disconnect? What is. What does that costume say? And I wrote, ironically, her father in the Netflix documentary was wearing a shirt that said boom. Which I also thought was unbelievably tone deaf when you have a car that crashes into a brick wall at 100 miles an hour. But that being said, I'm wondering what you think about the costumes and what that says about personality traits, if any at all.
- [37:14]
B
I would isolate that and say that when you do something like this, we all know people who they just don't get it. They say something that is outrageous. They show up with a T shirt that is extremely inappropriate. So is this still a young woman that doesn't get it and is unable to makes a joke out of what happened? I'm not saying that that's not possible here at all, but just isolating that one incident, I would just say just really kind of put it there and say, this. This causes me concern, and I would want to talk to her more about it. Sit down and have a conversation. So I would get a more definitive idea of what's behind it.
- [38:06]
A
And then that would be just one other data point that you would look at. The social media posts, the costume, that's the phone calls. Right. All of those things are just one more point for you to determine when you make an assessment as to what the personality traits are.
- [38:24]
B
That's right. And as I tell my students in, in my class, because we'll talk about cases and I tell them and they just look at me with their eyes wide, I say, I don't want your opinion on what happened here. I don't. I want your assessment. And the cases that you're going to work on will take you an entire semester to unravel them. That's when you will have an assessment. And finally, close to the final, they understand that an opinion is not based on much other than a knee jerk reaction, which we see a lot with true crime today. True crime today. But an assessment means the time spent in analyzing someone and their behavior over a period of time. Then you have so much more data to evaluate and to profit an opinion about. And it may. And you're much more likely to be accurate with an assessment.
- [39:26]
A
Do you think that the way she conducts herself in prison now will have an effect on whether or not she ever has the possibility to be paroled?
- [39:40]
B
Well, definitely. An inmate's behavior in prison is documented. There are a lot of incidents that are already in her file and the parole board will look at that. There's no question about that. If she's able to turn it around and show a good faith effort that I was acting like a young reckless woman when I first got here. I made a lot of mistakes. But actually show a concerted effort to improve that behavior, that if she cannot do that, that's going to be problematic. And then you combine that with going in front of a parole board of people that take their jobs very seriously and the crime is extremely serious. And if you don't behave and show that you've made every effort to show improvement and here's what I've done while I've been in prison. These are the, that I focused on to develop, to grow and show that I can be a contributing member of society. If that effort is not made, it would be my opinion that that's going to hurt her chances of parole. It would. Any inmate.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah, I agree. My last question here is, and it's really kind of more focused on the families. The families both expressed a desire to just know what happened right I'm sure they live with this thought in their mind about what their sons were as it was, speeding down the road at an ungodly rate. And I'm sure they're always going to wonder what happened in that car. And do you think that there is ever a chance that she actually admits to what really happened in that car one day?
- [41:27]
B
I think that there. There is a chance. And I think I go back to what you and I have been talking about. If there is that development, that evolution into a level of maturity where you recognize your actions and the repercussions and the consequences once that were to happen, if it were to happen, then you certainly might see a different explanation the same time you might not.
- [42:00]
A
Right? Well, for the family's sake, I hope that they do get those answers someday. My guess is, seeing what I've seen so far, my guess is they won't. But we, I guess time will tell. And, Mary Ellen, thank you for your time. I appreciate it so very much.
- [42:16]
B
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [42:21]
A
Thank you for joining me for another episode of Crime and Justice. Remember, we want to hear from you. Send us your thoughts, questions, or theories, and we will answer them on air.