← Crime & Justice with Donna Rotunno
Crime & Justice with Donna Rotunno
The Long Island Serial Killer| How Monsters Hide in Plain Sight
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A
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B
This is Crime and Justice. I'm Donna Rotuno. Rex Heuerman, the Long island serial killer, has agreed to talk to the FBI behavioral analysis unit. What can we really learn from someone who is accused of such brutality? Remember to watch Crime and Justice on Spotify and for premium users, you will get no commercials during our show. And make sure you hit the follow button and make sure that we get to the top of your feeds. Let's get a closer look at this case with FOX News digital reporter Mike Ruiz. Mike, thanks for joining me today.
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C
Donna. Thanks for having me.
- [01:08]
B
So, Mike, let's talk Gilgo Beach. This has been a long time coming. We know that Rex Heuerman has already pled guilty. He will be sentenced in June. Tell us where we are and what brought us to the point of Rex actually pleading guilty to these crimes and what he agreed to to do upon pleading guilty.
- [01:30]
C
Yeah. So, Donna, this is a case that's been going on really for decades. And Rex was killing people for decades before it was discovered. Once they were discovered, it still took another 15 years roughly to get us to where we are today, which is a plea and him confessing to eight different murders. So one of the things he did before the surprise plea deal was that he was challenging this kind of hair, rootless hair follicle DNA. It's kind of a new thing, but it is pretty accepted in the courts. His defense had tried to challenge it. That wasn't going anywhere in the pre trial motions. I have a feeling that they would have continued to try to challenge it if this went to trial. But it was just overwhelming evidence against him. And it kind of takes the burden off of his family. It takes the burden off of everybody involved, the victims families, prosecution, everybody, to just put this to bed with a plea deal. And the interesting part about this plea deal, you know, we're in Suffolk County, New York. The DA here, Ray Tierney, spearheaded the case. I mean, he was part of the task force that led to developing Rex as a suspect. He was in court Prosecuting the case himself, which not every elected DA does. Very hands on, professional career prosecutor kind of guy at the front of this. And he didn't let Rex slide like we saw in Idaho with Brian Kohberger not having to explain himself in any way. You know, the, the, the plea hearing or, sorry, the sentencing hearing isn't until June 17, so we don't have that in the books yet. We don't know exactly what he's going to say, but there, it seems like there's going to be an allocution, he's going to explain this. And on top of that, he's agreed to sit down with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit after conviction and just be analyzed and. Which is a big deal.
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B
It is a big deal. I didn't realize that he was going to have to give some type of allocution upon, upon receiving his sentence. That's interesting. I did obviously know that the FBI behavioral unit was going to interview him and he had to be truthful, you know, however they determine that. But he has to be truthful in his answers, which of course is helpful to get into the mind of serial killers. And at first when I heard that he was pleading guilty, I thought, oh well, maybe it's to spare his family and like you said, spare the victim's families. And then I thought, well, we are talking about a now guilty serial killer who has taken a plea of guilt before a court. But I really started to think about the fact that he probably did it for his own well being in the sense that he figured he could get some more negotiations in terms of what he's looking at, in terms of what his life is going to be like behind bars forever. And maybe he could get some extra points for the fact that he pled guilty. So my guess is it probably had to do more with that than sparing everyone. But I'm, I'm hopeful that somewhere deep down he may have at least done the right thing for his own family.
- [04:19]
C
Right. I mean, he doesn't strike me as a person who cares at all about the average person with conversations with people close to the family. I do think that his wife's financial struggles and, you know, she's battling cancer, I do think that actually did play a role in his decision making. You know, even though she filed for divorce right away, she was still visiting him in jail. She was going to court. She made very few public statements since his arrest. But she did say, you know, she didn't really believe the charges until, until they were proven in court. Now that that's happened. He admitted it. He's not even challenging it anymore. So, yeah, it's.
- [04:53]
B
It's going to be a very interesting to see what the FBI, the FBI behavioral unit gets out of him. I'm definitely going to want to pay a lot of attention to that. And I know that we're going to be speaking to Dr. Chris Mohandi today, who is a clinical and behavioral psychologist who's done a lot of police work. And so I think it's going to be interesting to find out the types of questions that will be asked of Rex Heuerman and what we gain from that information and how potentially it helps solve these crimes in the future, because I don't think it necessarily helps to derail people from committing them, but I think it definitely helps law enforcement solve them when they. When they do arise.
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C
You know, an interesting thing about that is this is a guy who, he was prolific for so long, and as the, you know, the technology changed over his period of activity. I mean, the first known murder was 1993. I do have a strong suspicion that there are more outside of the window of 1993 to 2010. But in 1993, we're talking very few cell phones, no smartphones, no Craigslist. And then we know. But by the end, in 2010, those murders, he was using Craigslist to find these victims or Backpage, you know, the online soliciting sites, using smartphones, using burner phones. That's how complicated he got. He was covering his trail. He knew about digital forensics, if you remember. He also kept notes on his laptop that prosecutors were to. To recover with advice to how to get away with this. He wrote down where there were street cameras coming and going from his house. He wrote down things like bring a plastic, bring tape, target small people because they're. They're easier. Don't hit them so hard. It was in the notes. I mean, it. He thought this out, planned this out. He's an intelligent guy, so he's probably has a trove of information for the FBI when they do get to sit down with him.
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B
Sure. And, Mike, this basically happened in your neck of the woods, right? This is like your backyard.
- [06:47]
C
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, when this was happening, I was actually living a few miles from Gilgo beach at the time. And, you know, it was a case that for many years, people here thought would never be answered. And it was like 13 years later, they announced the arrest of an architect from New York City in Massapequa park, surprising pretty much everybody.
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B
It's really astounding. It has to at least put some fears to bed. Because obviously, when these types of crimes happen and they happen over a span of time, that leaves the community constantly wondering, who did this?
- [07:22]
C
It was a big question. You know, there were. There were other wrongful suspects. I mean, we had another serial killer on Long island named Jonathan Bitroff who killed two other women. He disposed of their remains in Manorville, which is where two of Rex's victims were disposed of. And he was eyed as a suspect in this, and it wasn't him. And then when Rex got arrested, he appealed and he tried to get his conviction overturned. That didn't work out either. They do think he killed those two women. It's just. It's so bizarre that they're. They're dumping bodies near each other. It's, you know, obviously kind of concerning.
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B
So, Mike, we heard just yesterday that there is this piece of hair that was found in Nancy Guthrie's home. That hair was sent to the crime lab in Florida. This crime lab in Florida. Nobody understands what's going on there. And then finally, the FBI got their hands on this piece of evidence. Is this anything new in Savannah? And how does that sort of play into what happened with Rex Heuerman and Gilgo beach and the DNA?
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C
Yeah. So the hair. Is the hair new? The hair is news, but they say they got it early on in the investigation, but we just learned about it yesterday. So it's not technically new hair, but it was the first time we're hearing about it. And it's really interesting to me because they've had this hair for 70 something days, and they haven't been able to develop a profile from it, which is strange. And I was talking to some experts on forensic genetic genealogy, and, you know, they. They don't think that this hair sample is the same mixed sample that they also told us about earlier that they were having trouble with. You know, hair is a little bit more straightforward than, you know, mixed fluids or cells from your skin on a doorknob or something. So this should be more straightforward. According to most of the experts I talked to. They should be able to figure it out. What's interesting is that they haven't.
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B
Yeah, I don't get it. I don't get it. Well, you don't get a lot about this case.
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C
Right. There hasn't been too much publicly released information in weeks now, except for this. But now the FBI has it. They're supposed to be doing some advanced testing of their own. Something that I guess wasn't done in the almost, you know, two and a half months in Florida. And I, I just have a feeling that, you know, it's interesting that this is hair. Rootless hair helped catch Rex Heuerman rootless hair on the, on the, some of the victims. And that is a relatively new science, but it looks like the courts are leaning towards accepting it pretty much. You know, his, his pre trial motions to get it thrown out didn't work. It looks like even though it's new, it's not really that controversial in the eyes of the law. And I gotta wonder if, is that something that they're gonna develop from these hairs from Nancy's house?
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B
Well, we will find out. This will be interesting and something else for us to watch. Thanks, Mike.
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C
Thank you.
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A
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D
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- [10:59]
A
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B
Joining me today is Dr. Chris Mohandi. Dr. Mohandi, tell us what you do for a living.
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E
Well, I'm a clinical police and forensic psychologist. And in that capacity I do a lot of murder cases as an expert witness. And so, you know, I've evaluated a lot of people that have done terrible things so the courts can understand why I've testified about those things. And that's in the forensic arena. I've worked as a consultant to a number of serial and multiple murder cases. I've interviewed, you know, probably hundreds of murderers. And then as a police psychologist, I worked on open investigations as a consultant, sometimes to task forces that were investigating unsolved or cases where they knew who the offender was and they were trying to put it together. One example would be the angel of Death case in Glendale, California, with an offender that, you know, who knows if he killed 40 to 200 people. A terrible case, but he was poisoning people. He worked there for a number of years and ultimately was convicted. So I worked as a consultant to that task force for a number of years and I've worked with other cases involving serial murder. And I've interviewed a number of serial murderers throughout my career. Not just for cases and not just for investigations, but also kind of like just to understand better how these people tick and to inform other investigations. Like in the angel of Death case in Glendale, we went and we researched other people that had poisoned individuals, victims in hospitals. And we went around, we found a couple that were willing to be interviewed to maybe help understand why they do what they do, how they go about it, in case we, you know, learn something that could help that investigation. And in that particular case, we interviewed two hospital based murderers, serial killers, to help with that investigation. So it is something that I've done for many years and even before I had any active cases when I was at the lapd, I went to some prisons and interviewed, you know, some of these people. And then I've hosted a couple of true crime shows. And for that show, one show in particular, Most Evil, I actually went, you know, every episode we had three terrible cases, one of which I would have gone to the prison and interviewed the person to understand better what made them tick. And part of the attraction for doing that show was the opportunity to go and learn, you know, and interview some of these folks. It's, it's a very stimulating, intriguing, disturbing world. But it can help prevent what are
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B
the qualities or characteristics, if any, that you find, sort of make themselves known throughout all of these different people that you have interviewed? Are there certain ones that stick out? Are there certain personality traits that you look at and you think, okay, these are common themes between some of these people that I've interviewed?
- [14:19]
E
You know, there's, there's two broad categories of serial murders that I've seen. You know, there are those that which is a less common group that are doing it because they have a delusion or hallucinations the voices are telling them to do something. And that's somebody that's being driven by major mental illness, usually schizophrenia or some other thought disorder. Herbert Mullen, who killed 13 people in the 70s, is an example of that kind of killer. It was four months, it was 13 deaths. And he believed that the murders were necessary to prevent a cataclysmic earthquake in California. Delusional, psychotic, done some drugs. So that's its own thing, the serious mentally ill ones. And I actually feel like that's a lesser number of cases. Most are the uber predator types that enjoy the power of taking life and, you know, have a number of different ways that they, that they want to go about that. The fascination for them is hurting people. And there's often sadism that's part of their personality, the joy, another person's suffering, psychopathy, the lack of empathy for other people. Narcissism, a sense of being special and being entitled to do these things. That they're the center of the universe, that they don't care much what other people feel or think, not in any genuine way. And some of them can be quite superficially charming. That's part of one of the things that they use to manipulate people into a position of advantage.
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B
The Jeffrey Dahmer type.
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E
Well, more like the Ted Bundy type.
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B
Yeah, there you go.
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E
You know, and would be, you know, kind of your prototypical guy like that. Occasionally we'll get folks that are driven by extremist beliefs. I interviewed a guy named Joseph Paul Franklin who committed 20 plus murders. He was motivated by, you know, extreme variations of Nazi belief systems, you know, wanting to start a war between, you know, the races and, you know, supremacy kinds of things. And that went on for years. Him targeting mixed race couples, Jewish people and so forth. That was the reason for why he was doing what he's doing. But he went about it the same way. He's predatory, purposeful, goal oriented and very detached. You know, it was a mission for him. But even he, you know, narcissistic love talking about it. You know, once caught, you know, the personality endures, you know, the desire to be remembered, want some sort of fame, you know, before they're caught. You know, there's the joy of getting away with it, their perverse joy. But I'd say the common thread across them is psychopathy, narcissism, lack of empathy and at some level, sadism. And overall the desire for power over other human beings, the perverse desire to have power over life and death, playing God, if you will. God with a Small G. So that's kind of been a common thread. And when I'm interviewing them, I usually will, how shall I put it? Play into their narcissism. You know, they want to talk about themselves usually, you know, tell me how you got away with it, you know, and there'll be some bragging, you guys didn't figure this out. You would never have known. And, you know, kind of cockiness and dismissiveness. I do think some of them were genuinely interested in, you know, seeing what made themselves tick, you know, like hoping to learn something more about themselves. But even still, the desire to brag, be the center of attention. Now they can't do it anymore by going out there and seeing it in the news or knowing what they've gotten away with it with. But rather, there's also the joy of reliving it. For many of them, when I've talked to them, that the idea is like, well, I can't do it anymore, but I still got my memories. And talking about it. For some of the ones that have, you know, sexual components to their violence, you know, the people that killed and raped their victims, you know, or tortured them, you know, talking about it is a form of reliving it. Some will actually talk about that they're, you know, experiencing, you know, those pleasurable feelings all over again, you know, by doing so.
- [19:18]
B
Let's talk about it in the context of what we've heard out of Gilgo beach and Rex Hman, who just pled guilty last week, and he pled guilty to. He was charged with seven. Seven murders. He pled guilty to eight. So there was an eighth body that he admitted to. So whether it was actual plea, but he admitted to eight bodies. And as part of that plea, which I find fascinating, he agreed to talk to the FBI behavioral analysis unit. And in doing so, he's obviously going to sit down with someone with your level of experience and he's going to answer questions in terms of how, why, when, what he got out of it. You know, this spanned decades that these. These murders happened. And he really does seem to be kind of a regular guy on the outside, right? A guy with a family and architect coming to the city to work and then committing these murders in a very calculated way. And what I first found interesting, and tell me what your opinion is on this. What I first found interesting is the fact that normally these types of people with the mentality of narcissism and, you know, wanting to watch people suffer and lack of empathy, these are normally not the people who plead guilty so did you find that interesting? Because they kind of like the show. Right. They still want to be the center of attention though. Did you find the fact that he actually took a pleasure plea to be surprising here in any way?
- [20:45]
E
Not really. I mean, narcissism is narcissistic. People are all about themselves. And so there's some gain that he's getting out of it. I don't want to go through the trial. I don't want to face these people. I don't want to, you know, So I do find that there's a fair number of narcissistic individuals that will ultimately, out of that self interest, out of their own internal calculus, come to the conclusion that it's better for them for a variety of reasons that they get to, to navigate a plea deal and have control over it. Because there is control over navigating a plea, there is control over that versus all the things that can go on during a trial. And you end up at the same result. You know, you avoid all of that. So I'm not surprised, see a fair amount of this. So I, I, you know, I've seen a lot of narcissists and psychopaths plead guilty just because it's just easier for them than others. They like the game of it. You know, they, they enjoy the game, gamesmanship, but there's all kinds of games that can still be played even while you're copying a plea as, as he did. And I want to go back to your point, Donna, about the mask of normalcy that he put on. These guys all live double, triple, quadruple lives. You know, that's how they get away
- [22:07]
B
with it so long.
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E
That's how they get away with it. I mean, and at some point early in their lives when they're discovering these urges and impulses, fantasies, because it's fantasy driven stuff where they live, you know, you know, in their, in their violent internal world, they learn either, you know what, I know I can't talk about this, or the times I tried to talk about this, this is what happened. And they learn to kind of where they can keep that and that they have to put on this, they have to act, you know, and get by. And there's, and there's joy in thrill at that ability to live among us. The wolf in sheep's clothing. So, you know, he's going to his job, he's pretending he's doing all this stuff and he's living this double life. And you know, that's, that's just what they do. Most of them Aren't monsters all the time. They are, you know, putting their mask on so that they can get by evade detection. And then, and then when it suits them and when they think they can get away with it, or in some cases when the urges just become too strong to stop, you know, they act out. But most of them are in pretty good control. You know, when they see a. Cops, you know, cops around or the heat's on them. That's when you see these cooling off periods between, you know, murders. The cooling off period is often because they know if I keep doing this, you know, it's. It's too hot right now, or I got to go to a different place, which is why they sometimes travel. So. Yeah, so there's all that.
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B
And when, let's say that you have the opportunity, doctor, you have the opportunity to sit down with Rex Uman. What are you going to ask him? How do you start that conversation and what are you hoping to get out of him?
- [23:52]
E
So I'll have a whole list of questions, everything from, you know, when the first impulses occurred for him, like, you know, how old he was. Just to understand the development of it, where it came from, if there were any formative life experiences. I'll. I'll ask at what point he made his decision, Because a lot of them will make a decision at a certain point. This is what I'm going to do. You know, this is who I am. I'm going to embrace it. I'll look at for evidence of whether they've done behavioral tryouts with consenting victims, which they often will with prostitutes, sex workers and so forth, to a point where they can, you know, do some of this stuff in a role play or with other consenting partners if there's a sexual component to it. And then how they evolved, how they learned, how they developed, what they were paying attention to, how they went about evading capture, what they were attending to. It'll be everything from motivation and development of the, of the impulses and urges to the tactical calculations that they, that they participated in and how those modus operandi, if you will, emerged and evolved over time. Because they do emerge and evolve, what doesn't change is the signature which is the actual rituals that turn them on or that the offending pattern is all about that. That's, you know, like btk, bind, torture, kill.
- [25:20]
B
Yes.
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E
Another person who might poison, you know, that that's their thing. You know, differentiating what's their thing versus that which they did to. To survive and evade. How they identified victims is real Important like how they target them. And then I have some point in it where I would ask about anything else that's happened that you haven't told anybody about because there's almost always under reporting of the crimes that they've been involved in. You know, these are the ones that they're caught for sure. And we found out from this other guy you just brought up, New York, Gilgo beach, that, you know, there was another person is probably more. But I will usually start off my interview though with an open ended question. So tell me how'd you end up here and see where they go. But I have my list of topics in case they get too down in the, in the weeds with one or they're just trying to keep me over in this playing field. But I want to know about these other things. I'll start usually with an open ended question, see where they want to take me and then from there, you know, make sure I'm getting through those different topical areas that are important to me. And then I'll be attending to how does it feel like to sit with them? You know, how good are they socially at manipulating? Because some of these guys, they use manipulation and what we call a con approach to get a victim in a position of vulnerability. Others will do like a blitz or a surprise because they're not that socially adept or maybe they don't feel that confident. So they, they use another mech, another method that more fits with their personality and then some evolve, you know, with those techniques. But, you know, I'll want to, you know, attend to how am I feeling when I'm sitting with this person, you know, because they're, they're, they're often master manipulators. And I, and I will always assume that the game is on when I'm sitting with them.
- [27:17]
B
Sure. And that's, that was going to be my next question. So I know Rex Heuerman, as part of this plea, he has agreed to be truthful and give honest answers to the FBI behavioral unit.
- [27:29]
E
Right.
- [27:29]
B
How do you know those answers are truthful? What are you looking for? Right, what are you looking for? To see. Because he can make up whatever story he wants now. Right. He's at the point he's pled guilty. He's going to most likely serve, you know, three life, lifelong die in prison. Yeah, Abs, one way or another. So how does the FBI behavioral unit and how does that doctor determine whether or not the information they're getting is actually truthful? And I mean, I know that there's evidence from the case, and they'll have that, and they can compare notes. But how do they really know that those are. That. That they're getting information that's actually real and helpful?
- [28:07]
E
It's a super important question, Donna, because these guys, as part of being a psychopath, one of the characteristics, one of the 20 variables that goes into defining a psychopath is pathological lying.
- [28:19]
C
They are.
- [28:19]
E
They are liars. And another characteristic is manipulation. You know, so that goes along with narcissists as well. So you have to assume that the game is on. And towards that end. And the other thing I want to say is that it's probably going to be FBI agents, not necessarily psychologists or mental health people, although there are some agents that have their degrees in psychology. They might be involved with the behavioral analysis program at the FBI. They might be involved. So you might have a little bit of both. But back to your point, they're going to have the evidence, by and large. They're going to try to back it up with data.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah. And when you look at, obviously the data, I'm sure they'll confront him with the data if he's lying. Right. They'll say, well, we have this, we have that, we have your journals. I mean, this was a person who was a meticulous planner. Is this a characteristic that we normally see in these cases? And that's why people get away with it as long as they do. That's why there's normally a large number of victims, because of the precision. And, you know, this guy, I mean, he. He had notes and documents and how, how he was carrying things out. Is that something we would normally see here, or is that a mistake that he made?
- [29:33]
E
Oh, I don't think that's a mistake at all. I mean, it is a. It is something that his is undoing, you know, having, you know, but there, there typically is a fixation. These guys have an obsession with their thing. You know, if that's sexual violence, if it's simply taking life, if it's torture, these things, these are matters of utmost centrality for them. So they can be quite obsessive in documenting it. They can do it in pictures, they can do it in writing, they can do it in video, and that becomes what they use later on when they can't offend, to relive what they've done. So I think it's common. It's not in all of them, because you have to understand that there's a universe of people of which some are more towards that obsessive, meticulous side of Being really organized in their lives. And then you can have some that are just more, more impulsive, less likely to, to do those things. But I think it leans more towards the, under this other, other end of the spectrum for sure.
- [30:45]
B
Yeah. And he seemed to really plan these things out, like while his wife and children were, were traveling. And so then there's a part of me that wonders, did he actually take this plea to protect his family? And then I thought, is that even something that he's capable of? Right. Are you capable of that level of empathy to say, or sympathy or understanding to think, you know what, I'm going to spare my family? I'm not so sure that he's actually capable of that.
- [31:12]
E
There could be some of that in there. There's a lot of self centered reasons though as well. I mean, he's, he's done, they got him. There's no, there's no way out. He's done the math. Why, why put everybody through this? You know, there can be some pockets, some compartments of compassion and sympathy for the people that he's, that he's left behind in his wake. And you know, I know it's easy just to write these people off completely. They're terrible humans who have done the worst kinds of things to other humans, but they still can have things they care about. They can still have things that matter. And that's what you use in investigations to help you to get them to, you know, maybe go down the right path of doing the right thing because you have a piece of leverage, you know, with them. I wouldn't write any of these guys off automatically from being able to identify what is that. There's going to be a key for many of them to get them to do certain things that you might want them doing. And, you know, I, I think it's entirely within the realm possibility that he's got, you know, compartments of sympathy and compassion and attachment with his family. Plus, you know, you know, maybe he can use that as leverage later on to get visits and packages and, you know, other kinds of things?
- [32:31]
B
Well, that's what I was gonna, that's what I was gonna ask. Like what, you know, if, if he's sitting down with these agents and he's saying, you know, I'm only gonna answer if I get certain dinners or if I get you. Right, like, yeah, I don't think it's
- [32:41]
E
gonna be Hannibal Lecter. Yeah, you know, you're not getting opera and all that stuff. But they will make deals and say, okay, we'll make sure you got this and that and, you know, some creature comforts and, you know, some money on the books or whatever. I mean, if, if it helps you understand, if it gets you some stuff, it can, it can feel understandably offensive to a victim or a victim's family that that's being done. But if it's being done for the right reasons to help with a, maybe an unsolved or a future investigation, you know, each case is, each, each issue is different, but it may be worth that, you know, that that kind of small concession to get somebody over the hump of something could be truly helpful for somebody else.
- [33:25]
B
And what information is helpful to the FBI when they determine whether or not the, the killer is an organized or an unorganized killer? I mean, it seems here, as we talked about a little bit, that Rex Heman was quite organized in the planning, the carrying out and the actual, you know, killings and what he did after the fact. What type of information does the FBI or would you garner from that in terms of, you know, telling us more about him?
- [33:56]
E
Organized versus disorganized is a broad characterization and it can point you in the direction of traditional serial offender versus, you know, the Herbert Mullen type who might have more of a serious mental illness that impairs planning, even though some people with serious mental illness can be exquisitely capable of planning. I've had cases like that. But be that as it may, you know, that, that can tell you something about the personality and what kind of person you might be looking at to kind of reduce the universe. So you see that the, that the killer has obviously brought implements to the scene, that they've taken efforts to con, you know, to conceal DNA, that they may have transported the, the victim to another place to dispose of their body, concealed it. You know, that means they've got a car. That means that they've got, you know, these kinds of details of everything that went into it behaviorally can help reduce, you know, the, the, the uncertainty of, of the universe, what you're looking for. Plus, it can also say, we know he's got a car. That means he drove here. We can find video cameras during this window of time. You know, those kinds of things versus disorganized. You know, more disorganized offender is probably going to be striking in his or her own backyard. So they're going to be close by and it's going to be somebody that may have drawn attention to themselves as unusual or odd versus the more traditional wolf and sheep's clothing, who may be more adept at blending in and camouflaging yet. We know maybe he's got a car, we know that he's got his act together, we know that, that he probably is obsessed with certain types of activities, which means if we get on his computer, we're going to find that kind of, of pornography, for example, or these kinds of searches in his computer. We may be able to ask sex workers about, hey, have you had any contact with a guy that's asked for these kinds of things? So differentiating organized versus disorganized can help point you in different directions investigatively.
- [36:09]
B
Got it. And when we talk about the community, right. This, this guy blended in to this community for decades. And what is the psychological impact on a community when they end up finding out that this person just kind of blended in for this period of time?
- [36:28]
E
Well, I think it's, it's terrifying that, that to, to, to the population at large that somebody like this could be among them, that you worked with them, that you waited on him at the grocery store, that, you know, he sent a gift or a birthday card. You know, these kinds of things in, you know, are disturbing and cause people to question who can I trust? And candidly, some of these offenders get off on the fact that not only are they terrifying and terrorizing and having that power of a life and death over a, over the victim that's in front of them, but the population at large is another source of that sense of power that they could terrify, you know, so many people as well, as well as the, hey, I fooled them, you know, that, that sense of, you know, I tricked them, the police are stupid, you know, they couldn't catch me for all these years. I can't wait to go meet with them and tell them how they got it wrong. You know, those kinds of things.
- [37:33]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [37:33]
E
Plus it's a two way street. You know, these guys are inter, you know, they're being interviewed, but they're also doing their own assessments. You know, they're, you know, maybe they're still thinking there's another time that they're going to be able to get something they want or you know, if they're hoping they get out someday. You know, they, the people that are doing these interviews have to be careful because the offenders seem, can also be, you know, it's, it's two way street. They could be mining them for information. Sure.
- [38:02]
B
Which I think is really interesting.
- [38:03]
E
Yeah.
- [38:04]
B
And when you look at, you know, these individuals, is this really like, is this something that's born within you?
- [38:12]
E
Such nature and nurture.
- [38:14]
B
Thank you.
- [38:14]
E
Nature. Nurture born or made. Yeah.
- [38:17]
B
Or, you know, part of. Part of like the new society.
- [38:20]
C
Like what.
- [38:20]
B
What do we know? Is that anything that we can ever answer?
- [38:24]
E
I think that my experience, from what I've seen, some are born that way, just wanting to hurt people and wanting to dominate, wanting to have control and, you know, want new to just be a predator. And some are made through traumatic experiences or formative experiences, not necessarily traumatic. And that most, I think, are a combination of the two. I think that's the. I think it's the. Is it A, is it B, is it C or is it D and D? It can be all of the above.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah. Something that you have in you that is brought out by some. But experience in your life.
- [39:01]
E
Yeah, you've got a priming. You know, maybe you're born with a desire to lead or dominate, and then you have these formative experiences that, you know, take it to a whole different level. And it's those two things in collision. Another person could just be. I've met people just born, like ever since I can remember, I just had these. These things. And then others modeled it, you know, in terms of violence. It may have witnessed or at certain critical junctures as they were forming their sexual urges, for example, exposed to certain things. And then that became the fusing of those two, of those two impulses during a critical period. So it can be some are born, some are made, and most are a combination.
- [39:42]
B
And do you think the fact that he was able to sort of survive in this society in plain sight for so long without being caught, do you think that says more about how well he carried these crimes out or the fact that law enforcement just missed things and got it wrong? Because in this case, specifically in Hewerman, they had information about the type of vehicle he was driving a very long time ago. And that was like missed somewhere in this investigation. So not saying that that was going to solve it, but I mean, that's a pretty big piece of information. As we're talking about vehicles before. Do you think that he was just able to hide because he was that good or because the police really just kind of missed something?
- [40:27]
E
I think there's so many pieces of evidence to sift through and sort through to get to something like this. Who knows how many people had that particular car, whether they had the license plate or not. There's a lot of moving pieces in these investigations. Sure. And, you know, and sometimes the resources just aren't there or properly allocated for the case. And if it's. And I hate to say this. But if it's certain types of victims, sometimes they take a back seat. You know, if they're sex workers, sometimes it's not taken as seriously.
- [41:05]
B
Sure.
- [41:06]
E
I know a lot of great detectives that they don't care. It's, you know, people are people and they're gonna, they're gonna go down that path. And then in other situations, there can be conscious or unconscious bias, you know, against certain populations of people. So things can go wrong a number of different ways. Not the least of the fact is he's in New York and there's so many people there.
- [41:30]
B
Sure.
- [41:30]
E
You know. Yeah.
- [41:33]
B
When we look at the idea that an interviewer is going to sit down with him, somebody from the FBI is going to sit down and they're going to want to get as much as they can from him. And I'm sure the meetings will last for a very long period of time. Is there any specific investigative tactic that is taught to these FBI agents before they go in in terms of how to get through and get the most information from their time? Are there any specific things that they do other than try to get them to start talking and know that they're going to be manipulated? Are there any other tactics that are used?
- [42:13]
E
So it's the simplest thing, really. Shut up and listen. Yeah, because it's.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [42:21]
E
You know, that's why I like to start off with an open ended question. Yeah. Dr. Chris Mahandi. We've corresponded. I expressed an interest in coming to talk to you about, you know, how you ended up here and. Got any questions for me before we get started? Nope. Okay, just tell me how you got here and then staying out of the way because I've seen a lot of investigators start talking too much. And I think the best thing you can do is listen and ask open ended questions and follow it and, and still have your list of things you want to get to. But sometimes your preconceived notions about where it should go get in the way of where it really needs to go. And so I find that that's one of the most powerful tools, is being a good listener. And not all of them are going to lie, manipulate. It's just about being vigilant for it. Just understand this could be and is likely to be happening. And then the narcissistic ones, you know, you can argue with them or be offended by the fact that they're laughing about what they did to somebody or, you know, talking about it just so in such a detached, dehumanizing way. You know, you need to Allow for that, which is another technique. So open ended questions, listening, not being judgmental.
- [43:36]
B
Oh, that's a good one.
- [43:37]
E
And that's hard. Yeah.
- [43:40]
B
In these case, types of cases especially,
- [43:42]
E
you've got to rein it in. If you're not capable of reining it in, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it. It.
- [43:46]
B
So yeah, especially if you have a level of disdain, not for the person specifically, but just for the acts themselves. That, that makes it very difficult. And speaking of a level of disdain, talking about somebody like Brian Coburger in Idaho, I think that was such a big portion of that plea that left people very disappointed was A, the fact that death penalty was taken off the table, but B, the fact that he was never going to have to speak to anybody or tell anybody why he did what he did. And I mean that was obviously a one time cr. But he killed four young college students.
- [44:20]
E
Well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of unanswered questions in that case and I, I do believe that was a tremendous error for them to cave in so quickly and think that it's a done deal. Not, not great. But yeah, open ended questions, good listening, being non judgmental and following it where it takes you and not letting your preconceived notions limit your exploration.
- [44:50]
B
And while someone's in custody now we know Kohlberger pled guilty and he's going to be away forever. Do you think there's ever an opportunity where if somebody from the FBI said, hey Brian, we'd like to talk to you. Do you think he'd ever actually talk about what he did?
- [45:04]
E
He might, you know, down the road if he wants something or if it's something he's interested in. I mean, he was a student of this stuff, so he may take great pleasure in the opportunity to talk to somebody and to brag about how he got away with what he got away with, how he was literally in a class with a supposed serial killer expert. You know, I think that there could be a potential down the road if he believes it's serving his interests for him to do so. But they, you know, the way that they did that play was really problematic and they, they think it's over. You know, people can always appeal and it was just, it wasn't great at all.
- [45:47]
B
Yeah, it didn't feel right. I was out there covering it at the time and it didn't feel right that that was happening.
- [45:53]
E
And I know disrespectful to the victims.
- [45:55]
B
Yes.
- [45:56]
E
You know, to be consulted about it. It was like throwing the towel in, you know, with no real need to, to do so and without consideration for the victims. So I've been very critical about that from the get go. It sounds like, you know, you've, you've had your concerns about it, but I wouldn't be surprised down the road that, that he'll do something like this.
- [46:18]
B
Well, I would, I would love to hear that. And maybe in some way, shape or form, that's the way at least he redeems himself to some people. And, and he would never look at it that way, but at least maybe if the families can get some answers and you know what it might just be I'm just a sick person who wanted to commit these crimes and, but it was like, why pick them out?
- [46:37]
E
And I think there's a reason why he picked them out. And I believe likely one of the, one of the females he felt snubbed by or devalued somehow and then he became fixated on, on her and, you know, and the other things happened. But.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah, and it's possible that none of us would have ever known that because there really was no evidence of that. But that doesn't mean he didn't meet her somewhere or see one of them somewhere and then, you know, decide to, to commit these crimes.
- [47:06]
E
That's right.
- [47:06]
B
Hope. Yeah. Hoping that the FBI gets a lot of answers on Rex Heman and maybe someday we'll even get some on Brian Coburger. But Doctor, this was so fascinating. I thank you so much for your time.
- [47:19]
E
Thank you for your exceptional questions. Thank you for your exceptional questions and interest in it. It's a really intriguing subject.
- [47:26]
B
Thank you.
- [47:26]
E
Thank you.
- [47:26]
B
Oh, it was, it was great. And if we ever find out any more, we'll bring you back.
- [47:30]
E
Thank you.
- [47:34]
B
Thank you for joining me for another episode of Crime and Justice. Remember, we want to hear from you. Send us your thoughts, questions or theories and we will answer them on air.