20 Stab Wounds: The Questionable ‘Suicide’ of Ellen Greenberg

Summary

---

Crime Salad Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: 20 Stab Wounds: The Questionable ‘Suicide’ of Ellen Greenberg

Release Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Ashley and Ricky
Podcast: Crime Salad (BLACKCAT | Realm)

---

Episode Overview

Ashley and Ricky, the Crime Salad hosts, unravel the deeply unsettling case of Ellen Greenberg—a bright, much-loved Philadelphia teacher whose 2011 death was first ruled a homicide, then controversially changed to suicide. The episode investigates the impossible circumstances of her death, unpacks the fraught investigation and legal battle, and highlights the relentless fight by her parents to seek the truth. With recent developments and expert insights, the hosts challenge the plausibility of the official suicide verdict, exposing egregious investigative lapses and persistent unanswered questions.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who Was Ellen Greenberg?

• [01:51] Ashley & Ricky provide background on Ellen, depicting her as warm, dependable, and beloved by all who knew her.
  • Ellen was the only child of Joshua and Sandy Greenberg, devoted parents.
  • She excelled academically, studied at Penn State, and switched careers to become a dedicated first-grade teacher.
  • She was "bright, kind, and endlessly patient" (Ashley, 01:51).
  • Lively personality and strong family ties noted by friends and filmmakers.

2. The Relationship with Sam Goldberg

• [05:11] Ashley reconstructs Ellen and Sam’s evolving relationship:
  • Met in 2007, engaged in 2010, moved to a Manayunk apartment.
  • Sam described as charismatic; however, friends noticed Ellen grew withdrawn, more anxious, and spent less time with them after moving in with Sam ([06:22]).
  • Ellen began experiencing marked anxiety, leading her to seek psychiatric help ([07:45]).

3. Mental Health and Worrisome Changes

• [07:45] Ashley & Ricky detail how Ellen’s mental state deteriorated in the months before her death.
  • Ellen sought psychiatric treatment, prescribed medication for anxiety and sleep issues.
  • Despite searches for "quick death" and "painless suicide" on her computer ([09:14]), her psychiatrist documented Ellen as "not suicidal" ([09:14], [09:45]).
  • Continued planning her wedding and was actively engaged with friends.

4. The Day of Ellen’s Death (January 26, 2011)

• [11:14] Ashley provides a meticulous timeline:
  • Ellen leaves work early due to a snowstorm, stops for gas, returns home.
  • Multiple calls and grades entered remotely, last text sent at 3:47pm.
  • Sam leaves for the gym at 4:45pm; Ellen is on her laptop at 4:46pm.
  • Sam finds the apartment locked from inside at 5:30pm, becomes increasingly frantic, texts Ellen multiple times ([13:50]), attempts to get help from building staff, and finally breaks in at 6:30pm, discovering Ellen’s body.

Notable Quotes

• "I'm getting pissed. You better have an excuse. You have no idea." — Sam Goldberg’s text to Ellen ([13:50]).
• (911 Call excerpts, [16:02]-[19:57]) Reflect Sam’s initial confusion and delayed mention of the knife:

  "She stabbed herself, I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know." — Sam Goldberg ([18:14])

5. Crime Scene and Medical Response

• [24:00] Ashley & Ricky break down the immediate aftermath:
  • Ellen found with a serrated kitchen knife plunged 4 inches into her chest, in a locked apartment with no sign of forced entry.
  • Later, the autopsy reveals 20 stab wounds (10 to the back of the neck), with multiple bruises in various healing stages ([33:53]).
  • No defensive injuries, no suicide note, undisturbed snow on the balcony.

Notable Data

• "20 stab wounds in total, 10 of them in the back of her neck. That wasn't noticed at the scene. That alone stopped a lot of people in their tracks." — Ricky ([24:34])

6. Investigation, Evidence, and Early Ruling

• [24:47] Medical examiner Dr. Osborne initially rules cause of death as homicide.
• [28:55] Family and legal concerns:
  • Shortly after Ellen’s death, Sam’s lawyer relatives are granted access to the apartment before autopsy is complete. Ellen’s phone, laptop, and purse are taken—potential tampering risk.
  • A crime scene cleanup is facilitated while the investigation is still open ([29:30]).

Notable Quote

• "Why is anyone even being let into the apartment, let alone to be able to take...her personal laptop, her personal cell phone?" — Ricky ([28:55])

7. Shift to Suicide Theory

• [34:47] Forensic findings during autopsy suggest homicide:
  • Multiple deep wounds, including to scalp and neck, presence of older bruises.
  • Dr. Osborne later changes official ruling from homicide to suicide on March 7, 2011, citing computer search evidence ([44:44]).
• Police focus on Ellen’s recent internet searches, mental health reports, and lack of evidence of a third party, despite significant forensic red flags.

Notable Quote

• "It's almost unheard of for a medical examiner to reverse a ruling from homicide to suicide. The opposite happens sometimes." — Ricky ([45:41])

8. Expert Reviews and Challenges to the Official Finding

• Multiple prominent forensic experts, including Dr. Wecht and Dr. Wayne Ross, dispute the suicide ruling:
  • Highlight the physical impossibility of self-inflicting multiple deep wounds, especially to the back of one’s own head ([47:50]).
  • Dr. Ross finds evidence of strangulation and injuries too severe to allow self-infliction of subsequent wounds ([49:35]).
  • Detective Scott Eelman and Dr. Henry Lee conclude blood patterns and body position are inconsistent with suicide, suggesting body was moved ([51:27], [53:25]).
  • In 2019, Dr. Lindsey Emery finds spinal wound inflicted after death, refuting suicide theory ([54:27]).

9. Legal Battle and Ongoing Fight for Justice

• [57:29] Ashley outlines the Greenbergs’ relentless legal action:
  • In 2019, family sues the city demanding reclassification of Ellen’s death.
  • Contradictory testimony from the doorman and surveillance footage challenge Sam’s version ([58:16]).
  • Years of litigation marked by appeals, delays, and public scrutiny.
  • 2024: The Pennsylvania Supreme Court agrees to hear the case; Judge Erds calls the original suicide ruling "baffling" ([59:47]).

Notable Quotes

• "No one's definition is six months expeditious. I don't understand why this couldn't be changed to undetermined from the beginning." — Judge Carpenter ([62:18])

10. Recent Developments and Unresolved Questions

• [63:23]-[64:39] The city of Philadelphia agrees to a settlement and promises a new review, but delays persist.
• Latest medical review (Dr. Simon) affirms suicide, still refuted by Ellen’s parents and attorney.
• The Greenbergs vow to continue their fight.
  • "It's a kick in the gut and in my opinion, a decision that shows that the city is more interested in being right than being just." — Josh Greenberg ([64:39])

---

Notable Quotes & Moments, with Timestamps

• "How does a death that was first ruled as a homicide somehow get changed to suicide? Even after years of lawsuits, appeals, and independent experts taking a second look, the truth is still tangled in questions." — Ashley ([00:02])
• "Suicides involving sharp force are very rare, with some research saying that they account for about 2% of all suicides." — Ricky ([34:47])
• "Time is the enemy of truth. The sooner you collect evidence and talk to witnesses, the more reliable the information is. That's why police interviews happen as soon as possible. Human memory degrades so quickly." — Ashley ([46:10])
• "She was doing all the right things, taking every step to protect her peace. And yet something was still pulling her under. No one realized just how dark things were about to get." — Ashley ([09:14])
• "Dr. Wecht wrote that suicides by stabbing rarely involve multiple stab wounds and that stab wounds to the back of the head or neck are highly unlikely to be self inflicted." — Ashley ([47:50])

---

Important Timestamps

• [01:51] Ellen Greenberg’s early life and personality
• [07:45] Escalating anxiety and mental health context
• [11:14] The day of Ellen’s death: timeline
• [13:50] Sam Goldberg’s texts after being locked out
• [16:02]-[19:57] 911 call (Sam Goldberg discovers Ellen)
• [24:00] Initial crime scene findings
• [28:55] Suspicious handling of evidence and scene cleanup
• [33:53] Autopsy report details, shocking wounds and bruising
• [44:44] Medical examiner reverses ruling from homicide to suicide
• [47:50]-[53:25] Sequence of independent reviews, all finding homicide
• [54:27] 2019 forensic breakthrough: spinal wound inflicted postmortem
• [58:16] Doorman’s testimony contradicts Sam Goldberg’s account
• [59:47] Judge Erds criticizes original suicide ruling
• [62:18] Court's impatience with city's delays
• [64:39] Ellen's parents respond to latest setback

---

Case Status & Final Thoughts

Despite overwhelming forensic and circumstantial evidence refuting suicide, official Philadelphia authorities persist in upholding the suicide ruling. Ashley and Ricky emphasize the enduring trauma and tenacity of Ellen's parents—Josh and Sandy Greenberg—who sustain their fight for justice and transparency. The episode closes advocating for continued public attention and courage in questioning flawed investigations.

---

Where to Learn More / Follow the Case

• Justice for Ellen Facebook Page: Regularly updated by Ellen’s family
• Docu-Series: “Death in Apartment 603” (Hulu)
• Crime Salad Podcast: For continuing coverage of complex true crime cases

---

Transcript

[Ashley]

Today's case is one that has haunted Philadelphia for more than a decade. And honestly, it's one that still keeps people up at night. Because how does a death that was first ruled as a homicide somehow get changed to suicide? Even after years of lawsuits, appeals, and independent experts taking a second look, the truth is still tangled in questions. This is a story of a young woman found in what many call an impossible crime scene, locked inside her own apartment from the inside, yet somehow stabbed more than 20 times in the head, neck and chest. It's emotional, it's frustrating, and it's the kind of story that makes you question, how could this ever happen? This episode discusses violent death, suicide, and mental health. So please listen with care before we dive in.

[Ricky]

Make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening. It really helps us keep telling these stories.

[Ashley]

And if you would like to support our show, you can listen completely ad free on our [e-mail] Crimesalad podcast or on Apple Podcasts. And while you're there, leave us a quick positive review on Apple Podcasts. It would mean so much to us. I'm Ashley. And I'm Ricky and this is Crime Salad.

[Ricky]

This case is so chilling because at first glance, nothing seems to make sense. We have a 27 year old teacher. She's found dead in the kitchen with a knife in her chest, with the door still locked from the inside. The decisions that the police and experts have made has sparked 14 years of controversy and public outrage, especially with a new development in the case that just came days ago.

[Ashley]

Ellen Rae Greenberg was born on June 23, 1983 in New York City. She was the only child of Joshua and Sandy Greenberg. They devoted their lives to giving her every opportunity they could. When Ellen was around 11 years old, the family moved from New York to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where she attended Susquehanna Township Middle School. And from the start, Ellen was known for her warmth. Friends described her as bright, kind, and endlessly patient. After high school, Ellen went on to attend Penn State University, where she studied communications, and during her time there, she worked a job that welcomed athletes and their families, helping them to get to know the campus and even assisting on the football field during games. Everyone who worked with her said she was dependable and always smiling, showing up early and staying late. She graduated from Penn State with her degree in communications and initially thought she might have wanted to become a speech pathologist. But as she started down that path, she realized that it wasn't quite what she was meant to do. So Ellen pivoted and Enrolled in night classes at Temple University so she could earn her teaching credentials.

[Ricky]

And it was clear that Ellen's true calling was teaching. So she began teaching first grade at Juniata Park Academy in Philadelphia. It was a tough environment, but her colleagues described her as dedicated, patient and loving, going out of her way to make children feel safe. And it's pretty clear that Ellen was a beautiful person.

[Ashley]

Mara, a former neighbor, said Ellen was outgoing and full of life, someone who always had people around her. Mara also said that Ellen had a voice that was raspy, which was funny because her personality was so sweet and she was so bubbly. And the doorman at the apartment she lived in before her tragic death remembered the little things about her. Her voice, her laugh, her big smile. And how Ellen offered to make him chilly one day. She was thoughtful and warm, even in the smallest interactions. And it's important to hold on to that image of her because it's so easy in these types of cases for a person to get reduced to how they died, you know, picking apart every detail of what happened to them. But Ellen was someone, someone who really made an impact on people. Nancy Schwartzman, the filmmaker behind the docu series about Ellen that came out earlier this year on Hulu, even said no one had a bad word to say about Ellen. It's also easy to make a martyr out of someone where something so devastating happened. But she said that everyone said how fun Ellen was, how she was engaging, dynamic and well loved. She was a 27 year old woman who loved her family, wanted to get married and was excited about the future. She loved fashion, loved her students, and had a joy that everyone remembered.

[Ricky]

And Nancy also talked about how close Ellen was with her family, her parents, her grandmother, her cousins. They were a really tight knit, loving family. And that's part of what makes her story so tragic. What happened in 2011 didn't just take Ellen's life, it shattered the worlds of everyone around her. Especially when there's so many unanswered questions.

[Ashley]

Yes, it's one of the most confusing cases I've ever seen. So let's start from the beginning and set the scene. In 2007, Ellen met Sam Goldberg through a mutual friend and they went on a blind date. And over the years, their bond deepened, deepened. By June of 2010, after about three years together, Sam proposed during a trip to California. He asked Ellen in a romantic moment on the beach and she said yes. That set them on course towards a wedding planned for August of 2011. And not long after their engagement, Ellen and Sam Moved into a modern apartment on the sixth floor of a building with a beautiful view of the Schuylkill river in Philadelphia. It was in Manayunk, a part of the city they both came to know as their home.

[Ricky]

Now, who is Sam Goldberg? The public record tells us a little bit. At the time of Ellen's death, he was around 28 years old and working in media. He was an associate director for NBC Sports when he met Ellen. According to his LinkedIn page, Sandy, Ellen's mom, described Sam as very charming, charismatic, and respectful.

[Ashley]

Yeah, there's not much public information about him, but we can discuss the nature of their relationship. According to the people in Ellen's life, a lot of them noticed that there were changes in Ellen's behavior After she started dating Sam. Her best friend, Allison, recalled that Ellen was spending more time with Sam and his family and less with her own friends. She said that Ellen was closed off about her wedding plans and didn't share much. Colleagues of Ellen's also said that Ellen almost never wore her engagement ring, but according to Ellen, it was because it rolled around her finger and bothered her during work. Besides that, what we know about Sam is very limited, and he didn't say anything about Ellen until 2024, which we'll mention later. But during this relationship, Ellen's behavior and mood continued to change. By December of 2010, Ellen's loved ones began to notice the cheerful, calm, and grounded woman they always known was becoming more anxious and constantly on edge.

[Ricky]

And this wasn't just any ordinary time in Ellen's life. She was planning a wedding, managing a classroom at an inner city school, which she described to those around her as tough and trying to balance it all. In the middle of winter, a season that can take a toll on anybody's mental health, the stress was just piling up, right?

[Ashley]

And when her parents asked what was going on, Ellen told them it was mostly work. She said that the pressure from teaching and planning her wedding was starting to feel overwhelming. But at one point, Ellen sent her parents a surprise text that read, I want to leave this place. Get me out. And not long after that, she reached out to a cousin who lived in Philadelphia and asked if she could stay with her for a while. When the cousin asked if Sam would be coming, too, Ellen didn't respond. We may never know what she was feeling in that moment, but it's clear that something in her current living situation was unsettling. And as her anxiety kept getting worse, her family encouraged her to get professional help. So Ellen did. She started seeing a psychiatrist and met her several times throughout January of 2011. Ellen's psychiatrist ended up prescribing her two medications. Klotopen, to manage Ellen's anxiety, and ambien to help her sleep for a short while. It seemed to help, and Ellen told her family that she was feeling better.

[Ricky]

But even though she said that, the people closest to her couldn't shake the feeling that something deeper was wrong, Ellen's parents and friends later said that she seemed fragile, More uncertain than ever, like she was trying to convince herself that things were okay. She was doing everything that you'd hope someone would do. Reaching out, seeking help, trying to take care of herself. But that didn't help to stop whatever was building beneath the surface.

[Ashley]

Yeah, like you said, she was doing all the right things, Taking every step to protect her peace. And yet something was still pulling her under. No one realized just how dark things were about to get. On January 10, investigators would later find that Ellen's computer was used to search terms like quick death. There was also an opened article on euthanasia and a visited website about painless suicide. But when Ellen met with her psychiatrist two days later, the psychiatrist's notes reflected a woman who was still very much trying to gain control of her life. She wrote that Ellen wants things in control, that she was anxious and not sleeping, mainly due to her job. Five days after that, she had another session where the notes were a mix of progress and frustration. Ellen told her psychiatrist that she wanted to quit her job, but both her mother and her fiance didn't want her to. She also noted that Ellen could get out of her contract if she wanted to, but that she was in a state of spiraling due to her anxiety. But out of all of this, the most important thing that the psychiatrist noted was that Ellen was not suicidal. By January 19th of 2011, Ellen reported to her psychiatrist that she felt much better. And the notes said that Ellen felt 75% better, and she agreed that she could get through until the end of the school year.

[Ricky]

So from the outside, it seemed like Ellen was starting to turn a corner, finding her footing again. Because a few days later, Ellen mailed out her save the date cards for her wedding, which was set for August 13th of that year at Hotel Hershey in Hershey, Pennsylvania. That same day, Ellen went out to help one of her close friends shop for a bridesmaid dress for her wedding. During it, she started to cry and told her friend that she wasn't herself, but she was trying to get it together. It's kind of heartbreaking in hindsight, she was trying to reassure everyone and probably herself that she'd be okay, but things were obviously still really hard for her.

[Ashley]

And that brings us to January 26th of 2011, the day that everything changed. On that cold morning, winter had already begun to press down on the region. Snow started falling across Philadelphia, and in the first wave of the storm, the region picked up as much as 6 inches of accumulation. By noon, the city was under a gray, heavy sky and road crews were scrambling. That afternoon, Ellen received a text from a friend letting her know that school was letting out early because of the weather. And she replied, thank goodness. At 1:15pm, Ellen left work and began her drive back to the apartment she shared with her fiance Sam Goldberg, at the Venice Lofts. Her next stop was just 11 minutes later at 1:26pm where surveillance and transaction records show Ellen stopping for gas on Umbria street. She spent $41.20 at pump number four, topping off her tank with nearly 13 gallons of fuel, enough to make sure her fuel lines wouldn't freeze in the cold.

[Ricky]

So what's interesting here is that she's thinking ahead, planning for the storm. She's doing little things to stay safe, and it's such a simple act, but it says a lot about where her mind was that day.

[Ashley]

Exactly. And after that, Ellen then went home. And at 2:30pm she made a quick call to a local restaurant. Two minutes later, she made another short call that lasted only about 30 seconds. Once she was home, Ellen logged onto her school system remotely and entered her students grades, something that I'm sure was part of her normal routine. At 3:47pm, Ellen sent what would become her final text message, a casual conversation with a friend. And after this text is where things shift in a strange way. About an hour later, at 4:45pm, Sam Goldberg left their apartment to go to the on site gym. And there's surveillance footage from the apartment complex capturing him walking into the gym alone. What is interesting here is that one minute after he left, records show that Ellen used her laptop for the final time. At 5:30pm, Sam Goldberg finished his workout and he left the gym. When he got back to their apartment on the sixth floor, he tried to open the door, but the swing bar latch on the inside was engaged so he couldn't get in. And he started texting Ellen over and over again. Things like, open the door, what are you doing? I'm getting pissed. You better have an excuse. You have no idea.

[Ricky]

And this goes on for about 40 minutes. Texts, calls, pounding on the door. Neighbors later said they could hear him yelling ellen's name around 5:45pm and when.

[Ashley]

There was still no response at all, Sam ended up calling his cousin, who is an attorney, to explain what was happening and that he was locked out. And Ellen wasn't answering. So Sam's cousin suggested that he go to the building security for help. So a little before 6pm, Sam, he went downstairs to the lobby. He asked the doorman if he could help break the latch. The doorman refused, saying that it violated building policy. But he offered to give her a call and also get a hold of maintenance. So at 6:07 and again at 6:10, Ellen's phone was called from the apartment complex lobby line. But she didn't answer either time. And by 6:14pm Sam was back on the phone with his cousin, updating him that the doorman wouldn't help. Then at 6:23pm surveillance captured Sam re entering the elevator to head back up to the sixth floor. So by now we've got almost an hour of unanswered calls, texts, and attempts to get help.

[Ricky]

And that's a pretty long window, one that people have tried to pick apart for years trying to figure out what was going on behind that locked door.

[Ashley]

Right. So now it's 6:26pm Sam received another call, this time from his uncle, who, like Sam's cousin, was also an attorney. They told him to break the latch and go inside, then immediately call 911. Two minutes later, the building surveillance footage shows Sam head heading upstairs again by 6:30. Still on the phone with relatives, Sam reportedly forced the door open and stepped inside apartment 603, finding what would set off one of Philadelphia's most controversial investigations. He saw Ellen. She was slumped on the kitchen floor, leaning up against the cabinets. And on the other end of the phone, Sam's cousin and uncle heard him scream. And they immediately told him to hang up and call 91 1.

[Sam Goldberg]

I just walked into my apartment. My fiance's on the floor with blood everywhere.

[911 Dispatcher]

What is the address?

[Sam Goldberg]

4601 Flat Rock Road. Please come help now. Flat Rock Road.

[911 Dispatcher]

Is this a house or apartment?

[Sam Goldberg]

Oh, no, no, it's an apartment. Please, Harry, please. See? I don't know. I can't tell. She's.

[911 Dispatcher]

You have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help.

[Sam Goldberg]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She. I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. She. I don't. I can't see anything. She doesn't. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding.

[911 Dispatcher]

Ellie, you don't Know where she's bleeding from? Can't. Ellie, that's coming from.

[Sam Goldberg]

It's. I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think. But it's everywhere. Everywhere.

[911 Dispatcher]

She might have fallen. Do you know what happened?

[Sam Goldberg]

She may have slept. There's blood on the. On the table. Her face is a little purple.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone.

[Sam Goldberg]

I just. My. I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up. The door was latched. My fiance's inside. She wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor with blood. Like she's not. She's not responding.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down and I need you to look at her chest. It's really.

[Sam Goldberg]

I don't think she. I really don't think she is.

[911 Dispatcher]

Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back?

[Sam Goldberg]

She's on her back.

[911 Dispatcher]

Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down.

[Sam Goldberg]

I don't see her moving.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay. Do you know how to do cpr?

[Sam Goldberg]

I don't.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, I can tell you what to do. Okay. Until they get there, I want you to keep her.

[Sam Goldberg]

Oh, God.

[911 Dispatcher]

Hello?

[Sam Goldberg]

Yeah, hi.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[911 Dispatcher]

Willing to do CPR with me over the phone so they can.

[Sam Goldberg]

I have to. Right.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay. To get her flat on her back. Bure her chest. Okay. You want to rip her shirt off. Okay. Kneel down by her side.

[Sam Goldberg]

Oh, my God. Allie, please.

[911 Dispatcher]

Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, okay?

[Sam Goldberg]

I'm trying not to. I'm trying not. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh, my God. She stabbed herself.

[911 Dispatcher]

Where?

[Sam Goldberg]

She fell with a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out.

[911 Dispatcher]

Her.

[Ashley]

What?

[Sam Goldberg]

There's a knife sticking out of her hutter.

[911 Dispatcher]

Oh, she's stabbed.

[Sam Goldberg]

Stabbed herself, I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, well, don't touch it.

[Sam Goldberg]

Okay, so I'm just. Let her hear now. I mean, what do I do?

[911 Dispatcher]

No, I mean, you can't. If the knife is in her chest, it's going to be kind of hard for you to do CPR at this time.

[Sam Goldberg]

Oh, no. Oh, my goodness. Okay.

[911 Dispatcher]

Police with shop reader 277.

[Sam Goldberg]

Is someone coming here?

[911 Dispatcher]

Yes, they are. You said 4601 Flat Rock, right?

[Sam Goldberg]

Yes.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay. Someone's on the way. And the knife is still inside. The knife is still Inside of her?

[Ricky]

Yes.

[Sam Goldberg]

I didn't take it out.

[911 Dispatcher]

Was it her chest or what area?

[Sam Goldberg]

It's in her chest. It's like. It looks like it's right. It looks like it's right in her heart.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, someone's on the way out there. Okay, just get.

[Sam Goldberg]

Oh, my God. Oh my God.

[911 Dispatcher]

How old is she?

[Sam Goldberg]

She's 27.

[911 Dispatcher]

27. And there's no sign of life at all?

[Sam Goldberg]

No, no, please don't be. What?

[911 Dispatcher]

Bench her under her arm and tell me she responds to pain. She's.

[Sam Goldberg]

Ellie, she's not. She's not. Her arm. Her hands are still warm. I don't know if that means. But there's blood everywhere.

[911 Dispatcher]

I mean, I know, but you can't. And the knife is still inside of her. How far. Can you see how far it went in?

[Sam Goldberg]

It looks pretty deep.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay.

[Sam Goldberg]

And it's a long night.

[911 Dispatcher]

Don't touch anything. Yeah, don't touch anything. Okay.

[Sam Goldberg]

I'm not touching anything. I can't believe this though.

[911 Dispatcher]

No way. It was just you there with her.

[Sam Goldberg]

We. Yeah, we're the only ones here.

[911 Dispatcher]

And she ran in the door. You said let's shut.

[Sam Goldberg]

No, no, I. I went downstairs to work out and I. When I came back up, the door was latched like it was, you know, it wasn't like it was, you know, it was like locked from the inside. And I'm yelling and I saw. No, no, no, no, no.

[911 Dispatcher]

There was no sign of a break in.

[Sam Goldberg]

No, no sign of a break in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here because I had a break the latch, but to get in.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay. 4601.

[Ashley]

So this time of year, I love anything cozy. And I have to tell you, I am obsessed with my Lola blanket. We use it everywhere. On the couch, during edits, long car rides, even when we're recording. It's the perfect mix of soft, cozy and comfort. And Lola is the world's number one blanket. It. It's crafted with ultra soft luxury vegan faux fur and a signature four way stretch that makes it feel like nothing else. And it's actually machine washable, double hemmed for durability. And it never pills or shreds, even after so many washes. We ended up buying everyone on our list a Lola blanket because it's seriously the perfect gift. Something people actually will use and love every single day. And for a limited time, our listeners are getting a huge 35% off their entire order at loloblankets.com by using code Crime salad at checkout. Just head to lolablankets.com and use code crime salad for 35% off. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them Crime Salad sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola blankets.

[Bob Mata]

I'm Bob Mata, host of Buried Inside the John Wayne Gacy Investigation, which is Defense Diaries Remastered re release of the Gacy tape season. The original Gacy recordings have been professionally remastered for enhanced clarity, bringing new life to this groundbreaking investigation. Just to be clear, this podcast is not another John Wayne Gacy biography. No, this is the story of the victims, the desperate investigation to find them and the lines that were crossed to bring their killer to justice. The case shocked the nation and defined a generation of true crime. But the full story of just exactly how Gacy was caught has never been told until now.

[Sam Goldberg]

Well, there's a new podcast that is re examining the investigation of serial killer John Wayne Gacy. And in the most recent episode, the host profiles a story about the key evidence in the case that he says isn't the story we've come to know. If that doesn't show up in my report, then I was unaware of it that night.

[Ricky]

That's a detail I'm sorry that I cannot remember.

[Sam Goldberg]

Who were we to argue with, you.

[Bob Mata]

Know, state's attorneys and all that stuff.

[Sam Goldberg]

So I feel kind of bad about.

[Ricky]

That end of it.

[Sam Goldberg]

But he said that due to circumstances, we were not to tell anybody about that. Oh, for years I never mentioned it to anybody.

[Bob Mata]

My father, Bob Motta Sr. Represented John Wayne Gacy during his insanity defense trial in 1980. For decades, our family has possessed never before heard audio recordings of Gacy speaking candidly with his defense team. These tapes reveal the mind of one of America's most notorious serial killers.

[Sam Goldberg]

I, I remember throwing Vic's body down the basement, but I do not remember throwing them in a hole or covering them over or anything like that.

[Ashley]

How can I have any feelings about.

[Sam Goldberg]

Them once they were into the ground, they weren't my problem.

[Bob Mata]

The incredible true story of how law enforcement took the monster down is now available everywhere you get your podcasts.

[Ricky]

A woman found slumped on the kitchen floor, a knife still embedded in her chest. Which sounds like a clear homicide scene. But within hours, investigators would begin to question that assumption. And years later, those questions would only multiply.

[Ashley]

So when this call ended, emergency responders were already racing towards Venice Lofts. At 6:36 emergency responders arrived inside the apartment. They found Ellen Greenberg seated on the kitchen floor, wedged between two corner cabinets. And she was in a semi upright position and a serrated kitchen knife was plunged four inches into her chest. A strainer filled with fresh blueberries and an orange that was just sliced sat on the counter. Two clean knives were in the sink. Everything looked like it started as a.

[Ricky]

Normal evening, but when her body was later examined, they found 20 stab wounds in total, 10 of them in the back of her neck. That wasn't noticed at the scene. That alone stopped a lot of people in their tracks. What happened inside this locked apartment?

[Ashley]

At 6:42, Ellen was pronounced dead because of these fatal wounds. By 7:30, Sam's relatives, his uncle and cousin that he had been speaking with that day, arrived at the building. One minute later, an officer arrived and immediately requested the medical examiner's office. Now, I want to spend some time talking about the medical examiner's report because these reports will become extremely important later. So at the scene, the investigators spoke to Sam and the police, where Sam reported that he left the apartment at around 4:45 to go to the gym. And when he returned, he found that the apartment was locked from the inside. After trying to contact Ellen through texts, calls and emails, he forced entry into the apartment. There were no signs of a struggle, no valuables were missing, and no suicide note was found at the scene. No defensive injuries were noted and the only sign of forced entry was the apartment door, where the door latch was detached. The snow on the patio was undisturbed, so no alternative means of entering the apartment were identified. At 8:30, detectives had arrived on the scene and Ellen's case was officially opened. They noted Ellen's position seated against the cabinets, eyeglasses on the floor, a white towel in her left hand, a hair tie still around her right wrist, and no personal effects nearby. Again, there were no signs of forced entry or a struggle. And by 9:20pm, homicide detectives from the Philadelphia Police Department joined the scene. And at 9:55pm the medical examiner's investigator completed the on scene assessment of Ellen's body. At 11:25pm, Sam Goldberg was transported by police to the Northwest Detectives Division for questioning. And at 3am, Ellen's body was removed from the apartment for autopsy.

[Ricky]

And I know some people have been asking about these gaps in time. There's almost a two hour gap between when the medical examiner finished their assessment and, and when Sam was finally taken in for questioning and then another three to four hours before Ellen's body was removed.

[Ashley]

And I mean, there could have been a few explanations for that. The scene could have still been being processed, There could have been delays in Getting warrants, stuff like that. So by the time the sun came up, a woman had been found dead inside a locked apartment with 20 stab wounds and no sign that anyone else had been there. So police turned to questioning Sam Goldberg. During his questioning, Sam said that Ellen was already at home when he arrived home from work at about 1:30 that day. And while at home, Ellen was upset about her job and said that she wanted to quit, noting that Ellen had been stressed over work for the past couple of weeks. After offering some encouragement, Sam said that he left to use the gym and Ellen was grading papers. And when he arrived back home, he gave the same story that was reported by the medical examiner. And so he forced entry into the apartment at about 6:30. And I'm going to say this now because it's important. Later, the police did not ask Sam if anyone witnessed him forcing entry into the apartment. And Sam never mentioned that anyone was with him during this time. In the hours after Ellen was pronounced dead, Sam immediately called his family, which triggered the arrival that I mentioned before. His uncle and cousin, they both arrived and they stayed at the scene while the investigators continued their work that night. But what happened in the following 24 hours would become one of the most controversial aspects of the entire case, because the next morning, January 27, after there was about a foot of snow, before the autopsy was even completed, Sam's uncle, who, remember, is an attorney, contacted the property manager asking for access to the apartment so that they could retrieve Sam's clothing and personal belongings. And according to records, that request was granted. And Ellen's phone, laptop, and purse were removed from the apartment.

[Ricky]

Which makes me wonder why these things were so important to get out of that apartment. I mean, this is an active investigation. We don't even have a solid cause of death, manner of death, or anything yet. So why is anyone even being let into the apartment, let alone to be able to take. I mean, this was her personal laptop, her personal cell phone, those types of things. And I think this all comes down to the fact that the investigators ruled this as a suicide early on. I mean, the whole thing is just insane to me.

[Ashley]

And, you know, it's exactly like the Heather Turner case. This same kind of thing happened. And what's worse is that apparently the property manager also arranged a crime scene cleanup, reportedly with instruction from a police contact, meaning that if the police had to go back at any point to collect more evidence, most of it would be gone. Just from that, it's pretty clear to me that it had already been decided this was a suicide and this will.

[Ricky]

Be important later on, and I think we cover this. But for instance, those messages where she searched how to take her own life or a painless death, those messages were found after those laptops were taken home. So, I mean, this isn't even information that could be used in court, let alone can we really trust the time that those messages were sent or these things were searched. Because all of that could have been messed with.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it could have been tampered with. Now, that same day, Ellen's poor, devastated parents, they were being interviewed by the medical examiner's office investigator where they relayed their last communication with Ellen. They said that they had spoken to Ellen the morning of, where Ellen gave no indication that something was wrong. They talked about her history with mental health problems and how she had been seeing a psychiatrist and how the day of Ellen's death was the day grades were due for her students. The parents also denied having any concerns about Ellen and Sam's relationship, saying that they were happy to have Sam as an in law and describing him as a fine young man. They didn't have any knowledge of any physical or verbal abuse between them or of any previous suicidal thoughts or attempts from Ellen. Upon an interview with Ellen's psychiatrist, they mimicked the same thoughts and concerns, but said that Ellen never expressed any concern about her relationship with Sam, denying any abuse and having nothing but good things to say about her fiance.

[Ricky]

And that's so important in this case because people have questioned everything about Ellen and Sam's relationship, whether there were warning signs or tensions that no one picked up on. But at the least now, no one gave any indication that Ellen was in danger while in the relationship with Sam. But at the same time, everyone described Ellen as anxious but not suicidal. She was stressed, but still planning for the future. So when it comes to this crime scene, the question of homicide really only leaves one suspect. But suicide doesn't make total sense either.

[Ashley]

Exactly. And that's what people are battling with right now. So hopefully the autopsy report will bring a little clarity. And I want to give a disclaimer here because we're going to talk about the details of Ellen's injuries, which can be really uncomfortable for some people to listen to. The remains of Ellen were examined by the medical Examiner's office on Jan. 27 at 9am by Dr. Marlin Osborne. He noted 20 stab and incised wounds on Ellen's chest, abdomen, posterior scalp and neck, which just means the back of her head and neck. And they were all described as having soft tissue hemorrhage, which Means that she was still alive when these wounds were inflicted. Eight of these stab wounds were very shallow, with only superficial soft tissue injury, and five were almost an inch deep with no vital structures injured. One wound was more than an inch deep, but it did not cause any vital damage. The five remaining stab wounds Were the ones that were most notable. The first of the remaining five stab wounds Perforated Ellen's heart and lung, which was the one that the knife was recovered from. The second perforated Ellen's chest and liver, and the third perforated Ellen's abdomen, Causing hemorrhaging in various locations in her body. The fourth and fifth stab wounds Perforated the back of her skull and neck at 8-7cm deep, causing significant and fatal damage. What's most alarming about this report Is that there were multiple contusions or bruises found on Ellen's arms, abdomen, and legs, which were in various stages of resolution, Meaning they were sustained at different times in the days or even weeks before her death. And they were all in different stages of healing.

[Ricky]

So that means that these injuries weren't all from that night. Like, these could have been past injuries. They were in various stages of healing. Like this could have been something completely different. But either way, this is definitely a red flag that deserves more attention, more questioning.

[Ashley]

Exactly. And for many experts who've looked at this case over the years, that detail alone, Combined with the number and placement of the stab wounds, Makes the idea of suicide nearly impossible to reconcile. I mean, some of these were to the back of the head and the neck, and these multiple bruises, they don't seem to indicate spontaneous self harm. But we'll talk more about that later. So let's keep going through the facts. The most important thing here is that following Ellen's autopsy, Dr. Osborne certified that the cause of death was multiple stab wounds and that the manner of death.

[Ricky]

Was homicide, which, to me, this is kind of obvious. Suicides involving sharp force are very rare, with some research saying that they account for about 2% of all suicides. In those rare cases, the wounds tend to be in locations that the person can reach easily and more often involve superficial or simple injury patterns.

[Ashley]

Right. And if we're just talking about just the sheer practicality of self inflicting a wound to the back of the head and in the neck, especially at 7 and 8 centimeters. The literature identifies this as strongly predictive of homicide. People on the Internet have actually done demonstrations where they try with a safe object to inflict the wound in the same way that Ellen would have had to and they found it pretty much impossible. So homicide seems like the correct ruling. But in the days that followed Ellen's autopsy, things started to shift. Police returned to the apartment to collect additional evidence, like Ellen's engagement ring, her grade books and other teaching materials, and also an envelope labeled trip money. The next day, they collected three laptop computers in Ellen's phone from what they said was a male relative of Ellen's fiance. And they were all submitted for forensic analysis.

[Ricky]

Okay, so I'm going to assume that this male relative was the uncle, the attorney of Sam's. Right. And it's so weird to me that he took Allen's phone and purse out of the apartment, but. Okay, continue.

[Ashley]

Yeah. What was the point of that? What was the point of doing that?

[Ricky]

Yeah. And the fact that he's an attorney makes me feel like it's calculated in some way, or at least could be.

[Ashley]

The funeral service, it was held at 1pm Friday, January 28, 2011, for Ellen and the family gathered. And according to the docu series on Hulu, death in apartment 603. There were mentions from friends and family that described her fiance Sam as crying out loud, sobbing in an observation that he was in this state of disbelief. Meanwhile, it was during Ellen's funeral when a relative of Ellen's got news that her case was being looked at as a possible homicide. And how they found out through the news. So supposedly, Ellen's parents were not informed by any professional, but was told her story was on the news. And this was all devastatingly brought to their attention on the day of their daughter's funeral.

[Ricky]

It's awful.

[Ashley]

And the next day, on January 29th of 2011, the Philadelphia Police said that they were leaning towards suicide and reassured the public that there wasn't a maniac on the loose. A statement that stunned Ellen's family. It was the first time the idea of suicide appeared publicly in connection with Ellen's case, and it shocked her family. This was just three days after her death, before the full forensic results even came in, police started interviewing several of Ellen's friends. Each of them described her as stressed and anxious about her teaching job, mentioning how overwhelmed she had seemed in the weeks before her death.

[Ricky]

And it seems like that's what became the backbone of the police narrative from that point forward, which is what a lot of people have said in the light of these new developments in the case.

[Ashley]

Yes. And it's honestly so shocking what happens as this case unfolds. So on February 1st of 2011, police, they collected additional forensic evidence from the Apartment, there were swabs that were taken of several brown stains found on the kitchen cabinet, freezer, door handle, and countertop, all of which were submitted for testing to see if they contained blood. Then, just a few days later, a paramedic who had responded to the 911 call gave the account of what they saw that night inside the Venice lofts. The medic described Sam Goldberg sitting in the sixth floor hallway when they arrived, and he was wearing a blue T shirt, gray sweatpants, and according to the report, he looked shocked and confused. As the medic headed towards the apartment, he overheard Sam asking the property manager if Ellen was breathing. When the medic entered the kitchen and saw Ellen, they pronounced her dead at the scene. And when they told Sam the news, he reportedly slid down the hallway wall, collapsing on the floor, saying that he couldn't believe it, that they had just sent out save the date cards for their wedding.

[Ricky]

And I don't want to say too much here, but it almost seems like he's now putting on a show, because during that 911 call, he was so calm and almost disconnected to the victim. Like, there was a second when we were first learning about this case where I didn't even know if this was his fiance because it was so disconnected. But now he's like, the police are here, the paramedics are here, and it's like, oh, my God, we were gonna get married. I can't believe it. And I'm gonna dramatically slide down the wall. It's weird. To me, it is.

[Ashley]

And, you know, in that police call, whenever the dispatcher is trying to tell him to do cpr, and he's, like, kind of, like, hesitant. Like, oh, really? Like, I guess I gotta do it right? Even though she appears to be dead. Like, okay, I guess it's very strange now. The next day, police decided to interview Sam Goldberg a second time, and he told investigators that he hadn't forced his way into the apartment sooner because he assumed Ellen might have been in the shower wearing headphones or maybe napping. And according to him, Ellen would sometimes latch the door shut when she went to bed or when he was out of town, but not usually when he just went downstairs to the gym. He also told police that while he was trying to get into the apartment, he spoke with a neighbor in the hallway. That neighbor suggested that Sam go to the front desk to get a spare key, but Sam said he already had his keys, but that the swing latch was secured from the inside. And when he forced entry into the apartment, he didn't notice the large kitchen knife sticking out of Ellen's chest until he began trying to administer cpr.

[Ricky]

And this adds weight to the locked room theory, which made police lean towards suicide. But others have argued that those latches can be manipulated or relatched after the fact.

[Ashley]

That.

[Ricky]

And people have also questioned the fact that Sam really didn't see a large kitchen knife sticking out of Ellen's chest. I mean, you can hear in the 911 call that he's explaining that he's trying to get her sweatshirt off and that the zipper's just kind of stuck. And then he sounds very surprised by the fact that there's a knife sticking out of her chest. But if you look at the pictures, I mean, this knife is really sticking out. I mean, this knife is almost four inches into her heart. The handle is sticking out. Almost the same.

[Ashley]

Yeah. I mean, there are a ton of theories and discourse about how the latch could have been manipulated or even re latched from the outside, and also about Sam's involvement in this entire thing. But this is Sam's version of events. While at the station that day, Sam also voluntarily provided a DNA sample to be compared with any evidence collected from the apartment. So let's talk about that forensic evidence. As we said before, police collected three swabs from the kitchen. One from an upper cabinet near the microwave, One from the freezer handle, and one from the countertop near the stove. All three swabs came back positive for human blood. The knife recovered from Ellen's chest was processed for prints, where technicians found two partial non usable prints, Meaning there wasn't enough detail to identify either of the prints. As far as DNA testing, which included swabs from Ellen's clothing, the knife handle, Ellen's fingernails, and other potential contact surfaces, Testing only found Ellen's DNA, with the exception of Sam's DNA on her clothes, which doesn't really tell us anything since, I mean, they live together.

[Ricky]

So no foreign DNA, no clear fingerprints, and no evidence of anyone else being in the apartment at the time of Ellen's death. But suicide seems so impossible for so many reasons. But these findings, they just confirmed that for the police.

[Ashley]

Yeah, and the forensic analysis of the computers in the apartment didn't do much to add any clarity. Sam's laptop didn't yield anything relating to Ellen, but on Ellen's laptop, there were multiple files that appeared under the keywords depressed suicide and suicide methods. So this was enough to reinforce the theory that police were building. Combined with her history of anxiety and the lack of defensive wounds. DNA or fingerprints Those computer results gave a lot of justification to shift the narrative to suicide, which, this is kind.

[Ricky]

Of what we started to talk about before. These were items that were taken out of the apartment before they were ever searched by police, which, I mean, I work in computers and things like that. There are definitely ways to manipulate that data to show that a search happened at a different time, or even just removing search history or other data from those devices. Which, not to mention, that doesn't excuse the bruises that were in different stages of healing, the impossible wounds to self inflict, the ones in the back of her head, and the fact that it seemed like Ellen was right in the middle of making a fruit salad. That doesn't seem like something that someone who is suicidal would be making.

[Ashley]

Right. You're in the middle of washing blueberries and cutting up fruit. And we're told this is the moment that Ellen decided, I'm going to stab myself 20 times, half of them to the back of my head and neck. Which, I mean, it just doesn't really seem possible to even pull that off. It just doesn't make sense.

[Ricky]

I know.

[Ashley]

But between March and April of 2011, investigators, prosecutors, and the medical examiner's office held a meeting that would permanently change the direction of the case. In that meeting, Dr. Osborne changed Ellen's manner of death from homicide to suicide. And her death certificate was officially amended on March 7 of 2011. And the investigators later said that the change came after the review of computer forensics. Then on April 15, the medical examiner's office revised its official report again, this time noting that the building's doorman was present when Sam Goldberg forced entry into the apartment. Remember that this was never noted or mentioned by anyone during the initial investigation of the case. Police even interviewed the doorman himself shortly after Ellen's death. He also never mentioned being with Sam when he forced entry into the apartment.

[Ricky]

It's almost unheard of for a medical examiner to reverse a ruling from homicide to suicide. The opposite happens sometimes. A suicide later proven to be a homicide. But homicide rulings are made very carefully. They're not declared lightly. Forensic death investigation expert John Scott Morgan made this very clear in interviews, while also saying that he's only ever seen one case in his whole career where a person took their life by stabbing.

[Ashley]

And another part of this is that time is the enemy of truth. The sooner you collect evidence and talk to witnesses, the more reliable the information is. That's why police interviews happen as soon as possible. Human memory degrades so quickly. So for the medical examiner to revise his report after the fact and say that the doorman was present during Sam's forced entry. Was. Was strange. And this was a detail that was later proven false by surveillance footage and sworn statements. It's interesting and obviously this news just baffled Ellen's parents and family. They just could not believe that Ellen's case was being handled this way and they weren't going to accept that Ellen did this to herself. So the family began to fight back to obtain the autopsy report and also the crime scene photos. And they sought independent expert findings in Ellen's case. One of these was Dr. Cyril Wecht. On January 11th of 2012, almost a year after Ellen's death, Dr. Wecht issued a consultative report. After reviewing the autopsy findings, photographs, the medical examiner's investigative notes and Ellen's psychiatric records, Dr. Wecht wrote that suicides by stabbing rarely involve multiple stab wounds and that stab wounds to the back of the head or neck are highly unlikely to be self inflicted. He noted that most suicide cases involving knives victims often start with tentative cuts or shallow hesitation wounds to test how much pain they can tolerate and then they deliver a single fatal stab, most often to the chest or the abdomen.

[Ricky]

Right. And Dr. Wecht also pointed out that Ellen's body showed no hesitation marks, that she had no history of suicidal behavior and that she left no note, which is common in suicides that involve such violent means. He also added that the stab wounds went through her clothes. In suicide cases, victims rarely stab through fabric. They always remove or open the clothing first.

[Ashley]

So all in all, Dr. Wecht's conclusion, it was blunt. He wrote that based upon a reasonable degree of medical certainty, the manner of death is strongly suspicious of homicide. And throughout the years of these conclusions, they were echoed by many other experts in the field. In October of 2016, Dr. Wayne Ross, a Pennsylvania forensic pathologist, he issued a formal letter to attorney Thomas P. Brennan where he wrote that it was his opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner of death was homicide. Just a few months after his initial statement, Dr. Wayne Ross conducted a much more detailed forensic review. On January 10th of 2017, he issued a full consultative report. After examining retained tissue samples from Ellen's autopsy, as well as scene photographs, autopsy photographs and the original autopsy report, Dr. Ross wrote that one of the stab wounds penetrated Ellen's skull cavity, damaging her cranial nerves and part of your brain. He also noted that this kind of wound would have caused severe pain and immediate neurological dysfunction, things like disorientation, loss of motor control or even unconsciousness.

[Ricky]

So basically, to sum this up, that means that she would have been completely immobilized, preventing herself from stabbing herself more. And remember, this is 20 stab wounds. So if she did that to herself, she. She couldn't have continued to stab herself.

[Ashley]

Right. And Dr. Ross also noted the presence of fingernail marks on the front of Ellen's neck, as well as multiple bruises beneath the surface, including in the strap muscles on the right side of her neck. He concluded that those findings were evidence of strangulation consistent with manual pressure applied to the throat.

[Ricky]

So none of that is consistent with the suicide theory. It's more consistent with an assault. And he also described the bruises in various states of healing on her body, which he said was consistent with a repeated beating.

[Ashley]

Yep. And his final conclusion was that the scene findings were indicative of a homicide. But this isn't even the end of the overwhelming evidence from multiple experts. By the spring of 2017, another professional review added even more doubt to the official story. This time from a law enforcement perspective. Detective Scott Eelman, a veteran investigator, completed his consultative report after reviewing the autopsy photographs, the scene photographs, the full autopsy report, the medical examiner's investigative notes, and the findings of Dr. Wecht. His analysis focused on the blood evidence, what it revealed about the position of Ellen's body and whether it matched how she was found. And Detective Eelman wrote that the blood stains on Ellen's face were inconsistent with the position she was in when first discovered. In other words, the way the blood had flown on her skin, it didn't align with her body's final posture.

[Ricky]

And that's a huge deal, because that's how gravity works. I mean, blood follows gravity. So if it didn't line up, that probably means that the body was moved after her injuries occurred.

[Ashley]

Exactly. Eelman also noted that the blood stains on the front of Ellen's clothing were consistent with her being seated with her head tipped forward when those stains were made. But on the floor, the blood staining was minimal, far less than you would expect in a violent stabbing. And he also observed a pattern blood stain near Ellen's right hand that appeared similar to a shoe print or some kind of object impression. And he pointed out that if that mark had been made by Ellen's own boot, there should have been other pattern prints leading away from it. But there weren't. In his conclusion, Detective Eelman wrote that Ellen was not in the position in which she was found when the injuries occurred. And that calls into question everything that was determined based on the original layout. The theory of suicide is becoming harder and harder to defend. But the Greenbergs, they weren't done yet. By early 2018, the Greenberg family enlisted one of the most respected forensic scientists in the world, Dr. Henry Lee of the Henry C. Lee Institute of Forensic Science, along with his colleague Elaine Paglario. And what stood out most in their observation was that the blood was flowing in different directions on Ellen's face, suggesting she moved after sustaining the bleeding injuries. They said that their conclusion was that Ellen was initially standing when she was attacked, and then she fell, based on swiping marks of the blood on the cabinets, directly contradicting the idea that she quietly stabbed herself 20 times in one spot. And his final conclusion was that the number and the type of wounds and the bloodstain patterns observed are consistent with the homicide scene.

[Ricky]

And it just keeps piling up. Multiple experts years apart are independently reviewing the same material, and every single one of them came to the same conclusion that this was homicide. And the question is, what really happened?

[Ashley]

So by 2019, the Greenberg family, they had spent eight years gathering expert opinions, independent analysis, and forensic reviews, all pointing towards the same conclusion, that Ellen's death could not have been a suicide. In June of 2019, they submitted all of those reports to the Philadelphia medical examiner's office, formally requesting that Ellen's death certificate be reconsidered. But what came next only deepened the mystery, because In August of 2019, Dr. Lindsey Emery, a forensic pathologist with the Chester county coroner's office, found that due to the nature of the wounds and the lack of hemorrhaging, one of the stab wounds to Ellen's spine was inflicted after her death.

[Ricky]

And that's the icing on the cake. It confirms what Ellen's parents have believed for years, that the physical evidence in this case didn't just contradict the suicide theory. It completely tore it down. It's really hard for someone to stab themselves after they're already dead. You'd think by now that the medical examiner couldn't ignore that.

[Ashley]

You would think. But no, nothing came out of these findings.

[Fred Greenhalgh]

Hi there. Fred Greenhalgh here, director of audio dramas like DC High Volume, Batman and Star Trek Khan. However, my one true love remains all things spooky. And I'm excited to say there's a new season of my horror podcast, Undertow. This season is called Familiar Haunts. Standalone horror tales that reveal how the past is never truly gone and humanity may be the most ruthless monster of them all. Familiar Haunts is available now. Find it by subscribing to Undertow. Wherever you get your podcasts, such as the app where you're listening to me right now. Search for Undertow.

[Sam Goldberg]

Hey Michael.

[Ricky]

Hey Tom.

[Sam Goldberg]

So, big news to share, right?

[Ricky]

Yes. Huge, monumental, earth shaking heartbeat sound effect. Big.

[Sam Goldberg]

Meat is back.

[Ashley]

That's right.

[Sam Goldberg]

After a brief snack nap, we're coming back.

[Ashley]

We're picking snacks, we're eating snacks, we're raiding snacks like the snackologist we were born to be.

[Sam Goldberg]

Mate is back.

[Ricky]

Mike and Tom eat snacks wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ashley]

Unless you get them from a snack.

[Ricky]

Machine, in which case, call us.

[Ashley]

Call us.

[Scott Sigler]

When they were young, the five members of an elite commando group nicknamed the Stone Wolves raged against the oppressive rule of the Kratarakian Empire, which occupies and dominates most of the galaxy's inhabited planets. The Wolves fought for freedom, but they failed, leaving countless corpses in their wake. Defeated and disillusioned, they hung up their guns and went their separate ways, all hoping to find some small bit of peace amidst a universe thick with violence and oppression. Four decades after their heyday, they each try to stay alive and eke out a living. But a friend from the past won't let them move on. And neither will their bitterest enemy. The Stone wolves is season 11 of the Galactic Football League science fiction series by author Scott Sigler. Enjoy it as a standalone story or listen to the entire GFL series, beginning with season one. The Rookie Search for Scott Sigler. S I G L E R Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Woodbine Narrator]

There are vampires out there. They're beside you in the darkness. But what people don't understand is that they're not monsters. They're just going to work, living their UN lives. But we are a dying breed. Those who came before me. They are fearful and are not content to sit back and just disappear. And they'll do anything to fix that. From the creators of Parkdale Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams and changes, those you want and those you never saw. Coming Season 2 arrives September 24th. Distributed by Realm.

[Ashley]

So on October 15th, 2019, the Greenbergs filed a civil lawsuit against the city of Philadelphia and the medical examiner's office, demanding that Ellen's death be reclassified from suicide to homicide or at least undetermined. And that lawsuit brought something else to light. Contradiction in the accounts given by people at the scene that night. The doorman, Philip Hanton. He filed a declaration that directly contradicted Sam Goldberg's version of events. Sam had said that Hanton helped him when he couldn't get inside the apartment. But Hanton swore that he never accompanied Sam upstairs. He said he stayed in the Lobby the entire time, which was later confirmed by surveillance footage showing Sam entering the elevator alone.

[Ricky]

And that's one of the most frustrating parts of this case. So much information made its way into the official record. And Ellen's parents, they shouldn't have to fight this hard to get to the truth.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's extremely heartbreaking. By late 2019, the case had turned into a full blown legal fight, one that would last for years. In January of 2020, a judge allowed the case to be processed to trial. But the pandemic shut down court operations across Pennsylvania, putting everything on hold for months. Still, the Greenbergs didn't stop, but neither did the state, filing appeals, attempting to halt the proceedings. For the next three years, the Greenbergs, they would endure endless hoops, transfers, and attempts to keep this case buried, but still fought back and forth with more independent reviews, reports, and analyses. But by 2024, more than 13 years after Ellen's death, the case had reached the highest levels of Pennsylvania's court system. In July of 2024, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed to hear the Greenberg family's appeal, reopening the door for a potential challenge to the ruling of suicide. Then in August, the court formally accepted the case and agreed to hear arguments questioning the 2011 reversal from homicide to suicide. On December 11, Judge Michael Erds described the original 2011 decision to change Ellen's manner of death from homicide to suicide as baffling.

[Ricky]

And I don't blame him. I mean, this just feels like a complete circus at this point. This is somebody's life, a family's daughter that they lost, and they're having to spend over a decade to get justice for what happened to her. And meanwhile, no criminal charges are being filed and no investigation into who did this is going on.

[Ashley]

And after Judge Erds publicly questioned the original ruling, the conversation around Ellen's case erupted once again. And for the first time in years, Sam Goldberg broke his silence. He said that when Ellen took her life, it left him bewildered, saying that he had to endure the unimaginable passing of his future wife and the pathetic, despicable attempts to desecrate his reputation by creating a narrative that embraces lies, distortions, and falsehoods in order to avoid the truth. He continued that mental illness is very real and it has many victims. He said that he hopes and prays that no one ever has to go through what he did. Losing someone they love to a terrible disease and then be accused by ignorant and misinformed people of causing her death. By February of this year, in 2020, five, which is insane. The city of Philadelphia reached a settlement with Ellen Greenberg's parents. As part of the agreement, the city paid the Greenbergs $650,000 and agreed to re evaluate Ellen's manner of death. But of course, this story doesn't end there. Amazingly, Dr. Osborne, the original medical examiner who ruled Ellen's death a suicide, reexamined the evidence in the case and signed a document stating that it was his professional opinion that Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide. So a small victory for them. But By June of 2025, the Greenbergs received not a single update about Ellen's case. So in August, just two months ago, the Greenbergs filed a motion to enforce the settlement, telling the court that the reexamination hadn't even begun and that they hadn't received a single update from the city. When asked for comment, a city spokesperson responded only that Philadelphia will fulfill its obligations in due course.

[Ricky]

And the circus continues. And how disappointing. Honestly, 14 years and the Greenbergs are still waiting for a real answer. Still waiting for someone to explain how a homicide became a suicide and why no one has ever been able to make sense of that.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And Just recently, on September 3rd, the Greenbergs were back in court where Judge Carpenter openly criticized the city of Philadelphia for its months long delay in carrying out the promised review of Ellen's case. He said that under no one's definition is six months expeditious, adding that he didn't understand why this couldn't be changed to undetermined from the beginning. The hearing was continued to October 14th of 2025, but before then, the Philadelphia medical Examiner's Office released a 32 page review led by Dr. Lindsay Simon. Dr. Simon wrote that Ellen sustained 23 total stab injuries, including bruises of varying ages, but that she showed no defensive wounds or foreign DNA. The review also acknowledged the internal neck hemorrhages, but said that they did not constitute evidence of assault. In her conclusion, Dr. Simon wrote that Ellen's injuries were not inconsistent with self infliction. Affirming the ruling of suicide, Ellen's parents.

[Ricky]

And their attorney called the review deeply flawed and shameful, ignoring years of independent analysis and critical pieces of evidence that could have changed the outcome. They cited unreleased surveillance footage, 3D mapping and reenactment that demonstrated the impossibility of achieving the injury angles with self infliction.

[Ashley]

Sandy Greenberg, Ellen's mother, said that she was kicked in the stomach and dumbfounded by these results on October 14, saying that she couldn't talk for two days and she couldn't read the report. She said that she doesn't know what her future options are, but that they are not going away and not giving up that day. On October 14, the Greenbergs attended a remote hearing with Philadelphia Common Pleas Court Judge Linda Carpenter about The completion of Dr. Simon's report, which marked the end of the Greenberg's lawsuit with the city. Josh Greenberg, Ellen's father, said that he believed that somebody got away with murder and I honestly don't know where to go from here. Sandy said it perfectly. It's a kick in the gut and in my opinion, a decision that shows that the city is more interested in being right than being just.

[Ricky]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, the strength that they're showing through this is amazing. Sandy said that even though there's a period on the sentence that doesn't mean they'll ever forget their daughter or what happened to her, Josh Greenberg said they're going to be fighting as long as possible to find out what happened, and.

[Ashley]

That'S where we are right now. If you want to receive updates on this case, you can follow the justice for Ellen Facebook page, which is being updated very frequently in light of these new developments. There's even a new release on October 20th where Ellen's parents talk a little bit more about their communications with Sam Goldberg since Ellen's life so tragically ended. Thank you all so much for listening to this week's episode of Crime Salad.

[Ricky]

Thank you.

[Ashley]

We want to thank Ellen's family for continuing to share her story and for reminding us that justice doesn't stop just because time passes. We will see you next week.

[Ricky]

Crime Salad is a Black cat production. To find out more, check out blackcat fm.

[Hallie Kiefer]

Welcome and enter if you dare. Hi, I'm Hallie Kiefer. And I'm Alison Leiby, and together we're the hosts of Ruined, a scary movie podcast, where Hallie tells me the grisly details of a haunting new horror film each week. Whether you're a terror hound like me or a scaredy cat like Allison, we've got so many thrills, chills, and obviously kills to share with you. In every episode, it's the podcast that'll have you saying, that was so funny I should not have listened to it. At night with all the lights off, from the greats like the Exorcist and Poltergeist to modern classics such as Hereditary and Get out to the freakiest new releases like A Quiet Place and Terrifier, we ruin em all and we'll leave you howling mostly from laughter, sometimes because you're turning into a werewolf.

[Ricky]

Ooh.

[Hallie Kiefer]

Listen along as I try and guess the movie's twist, predict who will survive, and answer the hardest question of all. What would you do? So please listen to new episodes of Ruined every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And whatever you do, we're begging you, please keep it spooky.

[Roz Hernandez]

From the darkest corners of our imagination comes a game show that's more ridiculous than terrifying. Welcome to Tickled to Death, the horror comedy game show where nothing is sacred, everything's a little unhinged, and the only thing more cursed than the questions are the jokes. I'm Roz Hernandez, your fearless host, and each week I'll be leading a brave group of guests through twisted horror trivia, improv games, and enough sarcastic banter to make you question all your life's choices. So come for the screams, stay for the snark, Listen to Tickled to Death wherever you get your podcast and hit follow. Unless you want the show to follow you. In the meantime, don't get Tickled to Death.

[Bob Mata]

DC High Volume Batman, the Dark Knight's definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear. I have to make them afraid.

[Ricky]

He's got a motorcycle.

[Sam Goldberg]

Get after him. I'll have you shot.

[Ashley]

You mean blow up the building?

[Bob Mata]

From this moment on, none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts.