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- [00:00]
Ashley
Foreign to a study done by Pew Research Center. Only 48% of Americans believe that online dating is even somewhat safe, with 60% of adults agreeing that dating apps and websites should require background checks for users signing up for their platforms, despite most apps lacking such safety features. Unfortunately, research has shown that concerns about meeting potential love interests online are all too valid. It seems digital romance comes with some alarming risks. One survey revealed that 55% of respondents were met with negative outcomes from online dating, reporting crimes such as fraud, extortion and assault, among many other awful experiences. To add to the danger, there may be reason to believe that crimes committed by predators who use the Internet to lure in victims are likely to be even more traumatizing than attacks carried out by perpetrators who meet their victims without the help of apps. After reviewing 3,413 sexual assault charts from 2017 to 2020, researchers concluded that dating app facilitated sexual assaults tended to be much more violent, even though both perpetrators and victims in these cases were less likely to have used drugs or alcohol before the attack. Of course, warnings about the importance of being safe online aren't anything new. With over 50 billion people using social media worldwide, digital interactions have become an accepted part of daily life. It can be easy to be fooled by false confidence having grown comfortable in digital spaces, but perhaps it's wiser to open our eyes to the true dangers lurking on the Internet. When Sam Nordquist told his mother, Linda Nordquist, of his plans to fly to New York to meet a woman he'd struck up an online romance with in person, she warned him not to go. But at 24 years old, Sam was an adult who was old enough to make his own decisions. Always known for having a big heart, Sam wasn't going to let the hope of a new, intoxicating romantic connection slip away from him. Despite his mother's concerns, Sam booked the ticket to New York, unaware that danger was already waiting for him there. What followed would be the most devastating and unjust chapter of his life. Hey, Crimes out listeners. So today we are diving into Sam's search for love, a story that begins with hope but ends in unimaginable tragedy. It's a heartbreaking and gruesome case that won't be easy to hear Ontario County District Attorney Jim Ritz. He even stated that throughout his entire career in law enforcement, he has never seen anything happen as depraved as the horrific torture Sam endured during his time in New York. However, we're here to dive deeper into this case together because we believe that there's value in lending our own voices to the fight to ensure victims are never truly silenced.
- [03:34]
Ricky
And with that being said, we must warn you that this episode includes discussion of extreme torture, kidnapping, sexual assault, murder, and the coercion, sexual abuse, and physical abuse of children.
- [03:48]
Ashley
Right. And we'll also give you another warning when it comes to that time to share the most gruesome details of Sam's case. But if any of these topics are sensitive for you, you may want to skip this episode entirely and tune in next week instead. I'm Ashley.
- [04:04]
Ricky
And I'm Ricky.
- [04:05]
Ashley
And this is Crime Salad. So let's go back to the summer when this whole thing. When Sam Nordquist met Precious Arzaga In July of 2024, it seemed like his dream of finding true love was finally coming true. Though Precious was 38 years old, almost 15 years older than Sam, they quickly formed an exhilarating connection. The online introduction led to daily hours long phone conversations, making it clear to Sam's family just how attached to her he truly was. And. And soon enough, calls just weren't enough for the smitten young man. Sam was ready to take their relationship to the next step and meet Precious in person. The only problem was Sam lived In Minnesota, about 1,000 miles away from Precious home in Canandaigua, New York. Determined not to let distance get in the way of their budding romance, Sam decided to fly out to New York to meet Precious in person. His mother tried to convince him to change his mind, but Sam was persistent. He assured his family that they didn't need to worry. He'd only be gone for a couple weeks, after all. And so, on September 28, 2024, Sam followed through with his plans and flew to New York to meet Precious. Excited for their two week stay at Patty's Lodge, a motel in Canada, New York, where he could finally get to know her face to face.
- [05:46]
Ricky
Okay, so it's kind of funny. I looked this up when we were starting to look into the episode, but I checked out the reviews for Patty's Lounge, and seven years ago, someone said one word. Cockroaches. They attach eggs to your stuff and they travel home with you. So gross. Someone should shut this place down. And that wasn't the only review like that either.
- [06:08]
Ashley
Yeah, so maybe not very ideal. But Sam, you know, he wasn't from the area. It's not like he would have known any better. Plus, he was so fixated on meeting Precious and spending some time with her because they connected so well.
- [06:23]
Ricky
Yeah, plus they probably just wanted a cheap place to stay. But I thought it was funny. Cause it kind of. It paints a picture of where they were and everything.
- [06:31]
Ashley
Exactly. I mean, you think Patty's Lounge, it kind of sounds like a nice, cozy place to stay.
- [06:36]
Ricky
Maybe like Patty's Pub.
- [06:37]
Ashley
Yeah. And so the two met up just as planned. And their initial meeting seemed to go great. Sam captured the couple's big smiles and photos, and he sent them to his mother, keeping in touch with his family throughout the visit to assure them that he was okay. And as they got to know each other outside and in person, Sam made several TikToks with Precious, sharing their love story with followers who likely didn't even notice that anything was amiss. It seemed that the digital connection Precious and Sam had spent months building had laid the foundation for a strong relationship. Flying to New York may have been a risk, but it was one that appeared to have worked out in Sam's favor.
- [07:20]
Ricky
Plus, seeing these TikToks, I think would be reassuring for the family. So, yeah, he traveled a long way, but now there's video evidence that he met this girl. And they're getting along well. Right. You know, so I. I would assume that they probably appreciated that.
- [07:37]
Ashley
Yeah, it was probably exciting because he finally found someone that, you know, he's really connecting with. He's having a good time in New York. It's only a two week trip. He'll be back home soon.
- [07:47]
Ricky
Yeah, exactly.
- [07:48]
Ashley
No big deal. That is, until October 12th, when the two week visit came to an end. Or at least that's what was supposed to happen. When Sam didn't return home to Minnesota the day he planned to, his family did everything they could to contact him and make sure he was safe. Their calls and texts went unanswered. By October 13, Linda was concerned enough to reach out to the New York State Police to request a wellness check for her son. Shortly after she made the request, Sam and Arzuaga finally called her back, and the couple assured Linda that everything was fine. It was actually better than fine. In fact, the visit had gone so well that Sam had decided to stay in Canandaigua indefinitely, where he could continue to build a relationship with Arzwaga and her children in person.
- [08:39]
Ricky
I'm sure the family was excited about that.
- [08:43]
Ashley
Yeah. And Sam's family, they actually weren't very convinced. They always had their lingering suspicions that something wasn't quite right about this whole situation. But after law enforcement officers spoke to Sam and they confirmed that he was, in fact, safe, there wasn't much that they could do about it.
- [09:01]
Ricky
And I think it Would be hard too, because Sam's an adult. He's 24, right? I mean, he's a baby in their eyes, but yeah.
- [09:10]
Ashley
Still, with the many miles now between them, Sam's family continued to reach out to Sam. Their attempts only gave them more reasons to worry as Sam's replies dwindled over time. Eventually, things reached to a point where threats of another wellness check became the only thing Sam reliably responded to. When. Well, that and the pictures his sister would send him of his nieces and nephew. Concerned with the growing distance, Linda snagged conversations with her son when she could. But those rare replies felt off too. Sam no longer sounded like the son Linda knew and loved. His words seemed forced, like he was being told what to say. It was a strange personality shift, especially considering how Sam's friends and family members still remember him as a warm and outgoing young man who loved his close knit family.
- [10:03]
Ricky
And I think the fact that they were so close probably made it that much easier to identify, right?
- [10:10]
Ashley
Yeah, exactly. Despite his assurances that everything was fine, Sam's loved ones back in Minnesota, they grew increasingly worried. Something just wasn't right. 2024, the start of a new year brought more disturbing changes to the relationship between Sam and his family. Sam's communication with his friends and family in Minnesota abruptly dwindled to a halt. Texts and calls were met with a haunting silence. Sam's sister, Kayla Nordquist, would send him pictures of her children, which always worked as a secret charm in the past when all other texts and calls would be ignored. It seemed that Sam, he just couldn't resist replying to pictures of his nieces and nephew. This time, Sam's silence remained unbroken. No one could get a reply from him. On February 9, Sam's family decided that it was time to reach out to the New York State police again to request another wellness check. Officers, they went to the motel, but Sam was nowhere to be found. Precious told the officers that the couple had broken up weeks ago and Sam had left right after. Sam hadn't told anyone about this back at home about their breakup. So his family, they were completely in the dark about where he might have gone. But with red flags popping up left and right, they were more determined than ever to track him down.
- [11:39]
Ricky
I mean, it really shows you how deeply they cared about Sam. I mean, Sam was 24 years old, but I mean, he's still their kid, right?
- [11:48]
Ashley
Yeah. And just like you said earlier, this is a close knit family. They know Sam, something was off. This whole time they're feeling like he's in danger. Possibly they're getting all these red flags. You know, if they weren't such a close family, these things might have been ignored.
- [12:06]
Ricky
Yeah, I think the mother specifically, I mean, she identified something was wrong and obviously she doesn't know what's going on. But I mean, even in these domestic type situations when, you know, they cut off communication, oftentimes there's manipulation, there's some types of, you know, emotional abuse, that type of thing. So, I mean, something was wrong and they knew it.
- [12:29]
Ashley
Yes, they followed their guts and they kept pushing for answers because his family, they clearly knew something was off. And honestly, their instincts were spot on. So what happened next is a little unclear. The New York State Police Department and Sam's family, they have shared slightly different versions of the steps taken directly after the unsuccessful wellness check. A spokesperson for the state police has insisted that the department reacted to the family's report and Sam's apparent disappearance by taking the appropriate investigative steps. However, members of Sam's family have been critical of how the New York State Police handled their concerns in request for wellness checks, with Linda going so far as to speculate that, quote, sam may be alive today if they would have done their jobs, unquote. The family filed a missing person report with the Oakdale Police Department, which was then added to a national database and forwarded to law enforcement in Canandaigua. Regardless of which police department spurred the investigation into action, Sam's family wasn't willing to sit back and wait for law enforcement to hopefully find their loved one. Since they couldn't get to New York right away to search in person as they probably wanted to, they turned to the Internet for help. Their post about Sam's disappearance inspired others to get involved in the search. The Linda waited anxiously for the day that she would get her next paycheck, which she planned to book a flight to New York, ready to do whatever it would take to find her son. Sadly, Linda would never get the reunion with her son that she so desperately hoped for. Before Linda could even make it to New York, their search for Sam came to a tragic end. On February 13, 2025, authorities found a body wrapped in plastic, decaying in a field about 20 miles away from Patty's Lodge. The remains were confirmed to be the body of Sam Nordquist, his life stolen when he was only 24 years old. Sam's loved ones were devastated by the news of his shocking death, and his mother hasn't held back when it comes to expressing the agony of losing her son. Sharing quote It's Heartbreaking. I'm devastated. I've cried so much. My children have cried so much. We are a small but very close family. Unquote. Sadly, this was just the beginning of the disturbing truth that would give Sam's loved ones insight into exactly what happened during his time in New York. Answers that I assume weren't very reassuring. And so investigators, they dug into the case right away. It didn't take long for them to begin to put the pieces together. In fact, exactly one day after Sam's body was found, February 14th of 2025, officers arrested 30 year old Jennifer Quazano, 33 year old Kyle Sage, Patrick Goodwin, also 30, 19 year old Emily Montega, and of course Precious Arzagwa, who was later named the ringleader.
- [15:39]
Ricky
Okay, I'm curious to break down like who exactly all these people were because like you said, ringleader. This is like a circus of people.
- [15:46]
Ashley
Yeah. It's interesting because this is the day after. So all five suspects, they were charged with second degree murder for their alleged roles in the many assaults that contributed to Sam's death. Six days later, on February 20, 29 year old Kimberly Sokia and 21 year old Thomas Eaves were also arrested and charged with second degree murder due to their alleged involvement in in Sam's murder. So in total, seven people are accused of taking part in the torture that broke Sam down until his body just couldn't take it anymore.
- [16:23]
Ricky
So basically this is worse than anyone could have thought it was.
- [16:28]
Ashley
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- [21:52]
Ricky
So this doesn't sound like an organic connection that they made on a dating app and then met. This sounds like pre constructed.
- [22:01]
Ashley
Yeah, like she lured him into this situation.
- [22:04]
Ricky
Like there, there's multiple people involved at this point. Right. And it sounds like they might have been involved before they even got him there.
- [22:12]
Ashley
Right. And if this doesn't sound bad enough, two young children, a 7 year old and an 11 year old, were forced to join in on the torture, instructed to attack Sam like the adults did.
- [22:27]
Ricky
So freaking messed up.
- [22:29]
Ashley
And what makes this even more disturbing is that Sam was known to have a huge, warm heart and a soft spot for children, especially his nephew and nieces, who were referred to in his obituary as his favorite little people.
- [22:43]
Ricky
That's just absolutely horrible.
- [22:45]
Ashley
I can't even fathom the agony, the fear, and the utter terror that must have been impossible for Sam to escape in that motel room. It's tragic. It's just horrible.
- [22:57]
Ricky
Which explains the fact that he went radio silent.
- [23:00]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [23:00]
Ricky
And the torture continued right up until February 2nd. So like a whole month of this?
- [23:07]
Ashley
Yeah, that's whenever investigators said that Sam was killed by this sadistic crew. So yeah, a full month of this torture went on.
- [23:15]
Ricky
It's awful. And it makes you wonder, how could seven people come together and do this to someone? Like, how could they pick someone like this and just torture them?
- [23:26]
Ashley
Yeah, and that's what investigators were questioning too. How could someone do this? How could seven people do this? And also bring in some children to do the torture acts too?
- [23:37]
Ricky
Not to mention why? Why would they do this?
- [23:39]
Ashley
That's the big question. And as we wait for updates on this case, we can take a closer look at the past to at least try to understand what may have been going on behind closed doors. In social media posts, Sam and Precious, they always appeared to be a loving, affectionate couple, often seen dancing together in videos. That could indicate that something went wrong during Sam's time in New York, sparking the shift from the happy glow of a new love to a deadly betrayal. Or maybe the truth lies a little deeper than an initial glance at a TikTok video. After hearing about Sam's death, Precious's ex girlfriend, 32 year old Desiree Tucker, has opened up about what she experienced during her on again, off again relationship with Precious. So between 2022 and 2024, Desiree said that she too made happy, loving couple tiktoks with Precious. She played her part in creating the illusion of a romance for their followers, knowing that if she refused to do anything Precious asked of her, she would be severely punished. When the camera stopped recording, a nastier side of Precious emerged. Precious physically abused Desiree, repeatedly took control of her phone, refused to allow her to use social media, and limited Desiree's contact with her family.
- [25:06]
Ricky
Wow, so none of this is really new behavior.
- [25:08]
Ashley
I mean, considering how quickly Sam distanced himself from his family shortly after meeting Precious in person, it makes you wonder if this was an early sign that Precious was repeating a pattern of isolating her partners months before the most extreme torture began. I mean, we're just speculating here based on what her ex says.
- [25:28]
Ricky
Yeah, definitely aligns though.
- [25:29]
Ashley
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if future updates on this case reveal that Precious started manipulating and abusing Sam soon after they met in person. Violence maybe escalated over time until she completely tossed any inklings of a romantic relationship to the side in favor of fully committing to the month of torture.
- [25:49]
Ricky
I'm still caught up on the idea of was this pre planned or was this something that just went bad? Like was this really an organic connection, or was this a setup?
- [26:01]
Ashley
Yeah. Did somebody get angry, jealous, or. I mean, there's so many questions and so much that we still need to learn about this case, because it did kind of just happen.
- [26:11]
Ricky
I think what throws me off the most is that there were seven people involved. Like, how do seven people get involved?
- [26:19]
Ashley
Yeah. And also, was this the only murder and torture that they have done?
- [26:25]
Ricky
Yeah. Or is this the first one they got caught doing?
- [26:27]
Ashley
Right. Another aspect of the case that has been widely discussed is the possibility that Sam was the victim of a hate crime. People who have advocated for the defendants to be charged with a hate crime believe that Sam was targeted and tortured because he was a transgender man. Orange County Assistant District Attorney Kelly Wilford disagrees with this stance. Stating a hate crime would make this charge about Sam's gender or about Sam's race. And it's so much bigger. To limit us to a hate crime would be an injustice to Sam, unquote. None of the defendants have been charged with a hate crime so far, and there doesn't appear to be any plans to add that to their current charges.
- [27:13]
Ricky
So I'm not exactly sure what the district attorney meant by her statement basically saying that it would be an injustice to just chalk this up to a hate crime. But it's really hard for me to imagine that seven people shared the same motive to commit a crime like this.
- [27:29]
Ashley
Yeah. Honestly.
- [27:31]
Ricky
And if it really wasn't a hate crime, I'm so curious to know what the actual motive was, because it doesn't make sense. And honestly, explain it, because I don't know what else it could be in. The fact that this was a trans male. Is that just irrelevant? I mean, this is someone that didn't live locally. They didn't even know this person. They basically targeted this person, had them fly out to some motel somewhere, and then took them captive.
- [28:03]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [28:04]
Ricky
Not to mention, there's seven people involved, and now there's two children who were forced to be involved. It sounds like a hate crime to me.
- [28:13]
Ashley
Yeah. Because at the same time, how could anyone feel comfortable enough to carry out such a vile torture in front of other people like this? Like seven people. Now, there have been many researchers who have studied the complicated dynamics of various social groups, including the sinister way certain social groups can influence violence against others. Through this, we've learned that people who strongly identify with their social groups often experience pleasure while witnessing an outsider's misfortune. This sense of pleasure can sometimes erode the aversion most humans naturally feel towards harming. Others, leading to collective violence. Being part of a group like this may also make people feel like, kind of anonymous, like they're just one of many. The group might also have a story that makes the violence seem justified, like it's just for a greater cause. And when you're just following a leader or doing what everyone else is doing, it's easier to dodge that heavy feeling of personal responsibility. All of that can really mess with our empathy and open the door to some pretty awful actions. There's also another study done on 500 serial killers, further exploring how violence might be heightened by the presence of at least one one other person. And out of the 500 cases they covered, only about 20% of killers committed their crimes with a partner. With 383 killers killing alone. Female killers were significantly more likely to kill with a partner. And the murders the pairs committed tended to be more brutal, horrific and sexually deviant, involving particularly taboo offenses such as keeping victims as sex slaves and even resorting to cannibalism. Despite this, killers who work with a partner were less likely to be diagnosed with a mental illness or plead insanity. Sadly, Sam's case isn't the only example of the disturbing violence that certain sadistic social groups can inflict on their targets. By looking at other violent murders committed by small yet deadly social groups, there are some striking similarities. The case of Sylvia Marie Likens is just one example of this. 16 year old Sylvia was left in the care of Gertrude Benescheski in July of 1965. Three months later, the girl's lifeless, battered body was found on a soiled mattress in an otherwise empty bedroom in Gertrude's house. She went through horrible amounts of torture, including sexual humiliation. Numerous cuts, bruises, sores, burns, scald marks, two black eyes, in the words, I am a prostitute and proud of it, burned into her stomach, among many other injuries. Sylvia's sister, 15 year old Jenny Fay, shared the horrific truth about the abuse her sister had been subjected to during the time as Borders. In Gertrude's home, she was locked in the basement without any access to food or water. She was tortured daily by Gertrude's family, including Gertrud, Gertrude's children. Gertrude even went on to invite other children from the neighborhood into her sadistic world, encouraging them to join her in torturing Sylvia. Several neighbors later admitted that they knew Sylvia was being abused or at the very least, mistreated. Yet no one tried to interfere or alert authorities until Sylvia was already dead. A somewhat more recent case that was fueled by similarly dangerous group dynamics is the death of Andrew Gardner. Who was severely and repeatedly tortured for weeks leading up to his death by his partner and mother of his daughter, Claire Nichols, Claire's brother Simon Nichols, and Claire's ex, Stephen Martin. Andrew was only 35 years old when his battered body was discovered in the home that they all shared in Chilton, County Durham on March 13th of 2009. The injuries that were later recorded on Andrew's corpse included a head injury, bleeding on his brain, rib fractures, burns, cuts, bruises, and a gruesome game of Tic Tac toe that had been etched into his skin.
- [32:32]
Ricky
Sick.
- [32:33]
Ashley
And much like the other two cases that we talked about, Claire also made sure to involve children in the twisted torture. She also told children to write swear words on Andrew's skin and manipulated them into believing that Andrew deserved the treatment he was being subjected to. Claire's seven year old son was encouraged to hit Andrew as just another part of Andrew's never ending punishment. The boy was told that Andrew was a liar and a thief and it wasn't Claire's fault she had to inflict this pain on him. Thankfully, flimsy justifications don't seem to hold up as well when investigators dig into them. So getting back to Sam's case. According to the prosecutor who is tasked with getting justice for Sam, the defendants believed to have murdered him, they all knew each other. Some were entangled in romantic relationships, while others were more like casual acquaintances. Now they're all linked. By looming the threat of spending the rest of their lives behind bars, finally being made to face the repercussions of the agony they caused following their arrest, the list of charges against these seven people have grown substantially. All seven defendants have been charged with first degree murder, second degree murder, kidnapping, conspiracy, endangering the welfare of a child and concealing a corpse. Precious, Kyle, Patrick and Jennifer were charged with aggravated sexual abuse as well. On top of that, Precious was also charged with coercion after allegedly forcing the children to join the adults in torturing Sam.
- [34:12]
Ricky
So messed up.
- [34:13]
Ashley
Yeah. Now, after being indicted by a grand jury, all seven defendants pleaded not guilty to all the charges. So far, we haven't heard much from any of the defendants sharing their version of what happened to Sam. However, Emily's attorney did share her perspective regarding the role her 19 year old client played in this case, claiming the way that everyone's perceiving her is unfair given what I think her minimal involvement is. So if the defendants are convicted of the first degree murder charge alone, they face the possibility of life in prison without parole. Meanwhile, Sam's sister, Kayla Nordquist, has set up a GoFundMe titled justice for Sam Nordquist to help cover future travel expenses for the family who will need to fly from Minnesota to New York to attend the upcoming trials, and also wages that have been lost to the draining process and also unexpected funeral expenses. On the GoFundMe page, Kayla shares a message of hope stating, quote, our family would like to thank everyone for the outpouring of love and support we have received from the community. On February 13, the course of our lives have changed for the worse. Sam may not be with us physically, but we know his memory is still very much alive and his story isn't over. We will never stop fighting until Sam has the justice he deserves. The family also set up a Facebook page called justice for Sam Nordquist for those who are interested in staying updated on this case as it progresses through the justice system. They acknowledge that there's still a long road ahead before the people in the courtroom even come close to hearing the final verdict of all seven cases, but they remain devoted to ensuring that Sam's killers will be punished, granted some form of justice after the devastating heartbreak they've endured. Sam's family and friends continue to remember the warm, fun, hard working young man who worked at a home for vulnerable adults. He loved cooking TikTok and puma sweatsuits. The love Sam shared with his family, especially his nieces and nephew, and leaves a powerful impression in every statement the family has given. It's clear he will be missed dearly. Unfortunately, terrible things can happen even under the best of circumstances. The pain perpetrators cause is never a victim's fault, but we can take small steps to try to protect ourselves in hopes of spreading awareness and making online predators lives harder. We'll wrap up today's episode by sharing a list of precautions hopeful romantics can take to make meeting their long distance online special person a bit safer. Meet in a public place, video chat beforehand, Make a clear plan and stick to it. Share all the details of your plan with a trusted friend or family member. Arrange for your own transportation, ensuring that you're free to leave at any time. Consider booking your own accommodations for the first visit. Be cautious of sharing too many personal details right away. Check in with your friends and family members regularly. Have a back plan in case something goes wrong, and consider agreeing on a code word with a loved one that will signal to them that you need help without catching the attention of the person you might be trying to escape from. Establish boundaries ahead of time and be extra wary of anyone who tries to cross them. If you or someone you know needs help getting out of a domestic abuse situation. The National Domestic Violence Hotline offers a chat feature right on their website that will connect you with an advocate who can provide you with free, confidential professional guidance. You can also call them at 800-799-7233 or you can text START to 88788 to access the hotline, which is available 247 please share today's episode on social media to continue to spread awareness about this case, and leave a comment with any online dating safety tips we may have missed. As always, we greatly appreciate you supporting Crime Salad, whether it's writing us a nice review that really helps, sharing Crime Salad with a friend, or even if you go online and someone's asking about what kind of true crime podcast should they listen to. Thank you so much for mentioning Crime Salad. We greatly appreciate it. Your support means the world to us and it helps us play our part in spreading awareness about these important topics. Thank you for tuning in, and we know today's case was a tough one, but it also goes to show that even the darkest forces don't stand a chance at truly silencing Sam Nordquist. We appreciate you sticking with us through this episode. Please stay safe, take care of yourselves, and we'll catch you next week for another deep dive into the stories and that need to be told.