Stolen Betrayal: The Life and Tragedy of Lita McClinton, part 3

Summary

Crime Salad Podcast Summary Episode: Stolen Betrayal: The Life and Tragedy of Lita McClinton, Part 3
Release Date: March 2, 2025
Hosts: Ashley and Ricky
Duration: Approximately 58 minutes

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Introduction

In the third and final installment of Stolen Betrayal: The Life and Tragedy of Lita McClinton, hosts Ashley and Ricky delve deeper into the intricate web surrounding the murder of Lita McClinton. This episode unravels the continued pursuit of justice, the entanglement of key individuals, and the eventual legal confrontation with the prime suspect, Jim Sullivan.

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Jim Sullivan's Evade and Arrest in Thailand

The episode opens with a vivid portrayal of Jim Sullivan's life post-murder, highlighting his facade of normalcy while he remains a fugitive:

• Ashley (00:00): Describes Jim Sullivan enjoying his time in Thailand, believing he has outsmarted the police for 15 years since his second wife's murder.

Key Developments:

• Running from the Law: Jim relocates to Thailand with his fiancée, Nana Reynolds, aiming to start anew and evade the Atlanta Police Department.

• Unexpected Encounter: On July 2, 2002, police arrest Jim in Thailand unexpectedly. Nana Reynolds recounts the surprise during their dinner preparation when Thai officers declare, "James Sullivan, you are under arrest." (04:07)

• Circumstantial Evidence: Despite lacking hard evidence initially, relentless detectives continue their pursuit, believing in Jim's guilt based on circumstantial ties.

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Investigation Deepens: The Role of Marvin Marble

Marvin Marble, Poppy McClinton's ex-husband and a pivotal figure, becomes central to the unfolding investigation:

• Ashley (05:22): Introduces Marvin Marble, detailing his strained relationship with Poppy and his pivotal decision to cooperate with the police in 1991 for immunity.

Marvin's Involvement:

• Wiretapping: Marvin admits to taping conversations between himself and his wife, Poppy, using these recordings to uncover Lita's alleged manipulations (07:14).

• Deal with Jim: In February 1986, Marvin offers the tapes to Jim Sullivan for $30,000, hoping to profit from the incriminating information.

• Betrayal and Legal Trouble: After failing to receive payment, Marvin discovers missing tapes, confronts Poppy, leading to their divorce and his subsequent legal troubles for invasion of privacy (12:37).

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Legal Proceedings and Escalation

As the investigation presses on, legal actions against Jim Sullivan intensify:

• FBI Raid: On September 6, 1991, FBI Special Agent Todd Letcher leads a raid on Jim's Palm Beach estate, uncovering multiple firearms and personal records but yielding limited immediate evidence (14:36).

• Charges Filed: Jim is charged with firearm possession violations, leading to a brief jail stint but not directly for Lita's murder (23:33).

• Federal Indictment: Leveraging a 1984 statute, Jim is federally indicted on five counts related to conspiracy and contract killing, narrowly avoiding the five-year statute of limitations (33:44).

Civil Suit Efforts:

• Private Investigator Patrick McKenna: Hired by Lita's parents to pursue a civil lawsuit for wrongful death, aiming to secure compensation and further evidence against Jim (28:22).

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The Court Case: November 1992 Trial

The heart of the episode centers on the courtroom drama that unfolds in November 1992:

• Trial Setup: The trial begins on November 2, 1992, presided over by Judge Marvin Shub. The jury, meticulously selected, faces opening arguments from both prosecution and defense (46:14).

• Prosecution's Case:

  • U.S. Attorney Robert F. Schroeder: Portrays Jim as a manipulative, wealthy individual driven to murder for financial gain.
  • Witness Testimonies: Neighbors like Bob Christensen and Homer Deacon provide firsthand accounts of the suspicious behavior and the murder event.

• Defense's Strategy:

  • Lack of Direct Evidence: Emphasizes the absence of concrete proof linking Jim to the murder.
  • Challenging Prosecution Claims: Highlights inconsistencies and lack of reliable witnesses, questioning the validity of the informant Johnny Austin Turner's statements.

• Critical Testimonies:

  • Marvin Marble (51:58): Testifies about his dealings with Jim, revealing phone calls and the timeline leading up to the murder.
  • Dr. Clyde Marlowe's Tape: A pivotal moment where a covertly recorded conversation contradicts Jim's claims about the murder weapon, undermining his credibility (55:41).

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Conclusion: Indictment and Aftermath

The episode culminates in Jim Sullivan's indictment, marking a significant milestone in the quest for justice:

• Bittersweet Victory: While the indictment brings hope to Lita's family, it also evokes mixed emotions due to its proximity to the fifth anniversary of her death (39:19).

• Jim's Continuing Manipulations: Despite being indicted, Jim's attempts to evade complete accountability persist, demonstrating his persistent manipulative nature.

• Final Reflections: Ashley and Ricky wrap up the series by acknowledging the complexities and frustrations inherent in such long-term investigations, emphasizing the relentless pursuit of truth and justice.

Notable Quotes:

• Ashley (01:31): "Jim went all the way to Thailand? This guy would do whatever it takes to not get caught."

• Ricky (10:49): "But, like, why? What's the point of doing all of this? It just seems so obsessive."

• Ashley (20:09): "Unthinkable and inconceivable."

• Detective Harris (55:43): "A professional hitman would have used a stolen gun that could not be traced back to him and would have dropped it at the scene."

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Final Remarks

Ashley and Ricky conclude the episode by thanking their listeners, urging for support through reviews and shares, and reflecting on their journey through this compelling true crime narrative. Their candid discussions and engaging storytelling provide a comprehensive and thought-provoking exploration of the darker facets of human nature and the relentless pursuit of justice.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Ashley]

Foreign. A middle aged man with graying hair leaned against his balcony railing, taking in the familiar seaside view. The waves crashed gently against the shore, a sight he had admired for years. He let out a quiet chuckle, bringing a thick cigar to his lips. The rich smoke curled into the evening air as he grinned to himself. For nearly 15 years, he had fooled them all. Those clueless cops are still chasing shadows. Back in 1987, his second wife had been murdered in cold blood. And yet here he stood, free, untouched and smiling. Jim Sullivan had orchestrated the murder. He knew the Atlanta Police Department would have every reason to suspect him. He had the perfect motive. Money. But he had done everything in his power to cover his tracks, hoping it was enough. Still, he had to hand it to the detectives. They were relentless, determined to prove that he was the one pulling the strings behind the hit. But some time had still went by and, well, a lot of miles in between. Jim was on another continent. He was hiding out in Thailand for four years with his new fiance. And we're gonna go by her nickname, Nana Reynolds. She would become his fourth wife.

[Ricky]

Wait. Jim went all the way to Thailand?

[Ashley]

Hello and welcome back to Crime Salad. This is your part three of Stolen the Life and Tragedy of Leda McClinton. We are finishing this story this week, and I want to inform you that my voice is completely messed up. Ricky had the same exact sickness as me, but of course he's fine. He recovered after what, a week?

[Ricky]

My immune system is strong and I'm.

[Ashley]

On some kind of steroid right now that I literally cleaned the house for eight hours and I'm perfectly fine.

[Ricky]

Sound like scruffleufagus, but, yeah, I mean.

[Ashley]

I think that's just how it goes. You know, I'm struggling through the mud as I normally do.

[Ricky]

I'm on a raft in the sun.

[Ashley]

We are so excited to share this story this week because Leda, she needs to get justice. And we will summarize some of the story for you as we go through the story about part two, because I know we had to skip a whole week, but let's jump in. My name's Ashley.

[Ricky]

And I'm Ricky. So are you gonna answer my question? Did Jim go all the way to Thailand?

[Ashley]

Yes. Thailand. This guy would do whatever it takes to not get caught. And he had another woman by his side.

[Ricky]

Wasn't he going through a divorce with Suki or something? He's already got a new lady.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

Wow.

[Ashley]

So the Jim Sullivan we know, he's controlling, he's secretive, he's manipulative, he's He's a cheater, and he's basically the type of person who only cares about himself. Leda, who gave the marriage numerous tries, she didn't want to give up. However, in the end, she knew that she had no choice. She needed to be happy. She couldn't live in a marriage that was making her completely miserable at the time. She couldn't live with a husband who was so cruel to her. So on July 2nd of 2002, around 15 years after the murder, a few days before Independence Day, police finally caught.

[Ricky]

Up with him in Thailand.

[Ashley]

In Thailand, Jim and his wife Nana were in the kitchen preparing dinner. They had just returned home from a walk, and there was a hard knock on the door. Nana, not suspecting anything, went to open the door. As soon as she opened the door, five Thai police officers burst through the doorway and into the apartment. The captain's voice boomed, james Sullivan, you are under arrest. We have a court order to search your apartment. And the captain later said, during the time of Jim's arrest, he was caught completely off guard. He didn't resist, but he began to sweat all over.

[Ricky]

Well, the last I remember, they didn't really have a lot on him in the US at least. Right.

[Ashley]

They didn't have, like, any hard evidence. It was all really circumstantial.

[Ricky]

Okay, so this is about to get good.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So if you remember Jim, he was convicted of other smaller crimes that had nothing to do with the murder. Like the Palm beach police in Florida. They found him guilty of perjury when he tried to get Sukie, his third wife, to take the blame for a car accident when she wasn't actually even in the car. She didn't even have a driver's license at the time. Meanwhile, in Georgia, the Atlanta Police Department were still trying to pin the murder on him. And it took them a while to finally gather all of the evidence. Years, actually. But they kept working at it. They knew he was the one. But with all this circumstantial evidence pointing to Jim, they just needed that hard, solid evidence. Circumstantial evidence would not be enough to convict him in court. Now, we ended part two in September of 1991, when Marvin Marble decided that it would be a good idea to talk to the police in return for immunity. 1991 was only six years after Lita's death.

[Ricky]

So Marvin was Poppy's ex husband, Right?

[Ashley]

Yeah. Poppy had been one of Leda's closest friends. The two met in college and had been inseparable ever since. The night before Lita Was murdered. Poppy had actually stayed over Lita's house with her young daughter. They were inside the house when the fake delivery man arrived. The moment when the three gunshots rang out. Poppy grabbed her daughter and hid inside a linen closet, terrified. From the beginning, the Atlanta police had their suspicions about Marvin. There was just something about him that felt connected to the case, but they just couldn't figure out what exactly it was.

[Ricky]

What was Marvin talking now? I mean, did he have anything to say? Like, anything interesting?

[Ashley]

Well, Marvin, he told the Atlanta police that he wasn't involved. But his information helped explain how Jim knew all kinds of information about his wife.

[Ricky]

Oh.

[Ashley]

Marvin told officers that he had tapped his house phone In December of 1985, after his marriage began to show hints of shattering. And for eight months, Marvin had recorded 40 tapes, which included more than 300 hours of his wife's private conversations. Now, to keep Poppy or anyone else finding these tapes, he hid these tapes in the trunk of his car. Then, In February of 1986, he told Jim that these tapes provided enough evidence to show that leda was leading Poppy astray. Basically, he told Jim that he had some dirt on leda and Marvin. He figured that he could sell these tapes to Jim and make some money off his hard work of recording hours of conversations and listening to every word that was said. Marvin was the kind of guy who liked to make a quick buck, But.

[Ricky]

I thought him and Jim were friends. Like, he's gonna charge him for this information?

[Ashley]

Heck, yeah. He knows that Jim got some money.

[Ricky]

I guess they're probably similar people if they're friends. So Marvin was wiretapping his own phone, so I'm assuming he was just trying to figure out what was going on with Poppy or whatever. Like, they were having trouble in their marriage, and this is him kind of looking into it. But during that time, he actually finds out that leda is pulling Poppy away from him.

[Ashley]

Yeah, he's kind of thinking that leda is the reason why they are falling apart.

[Ricky]

Right.

[Ashley]

Maybe she's putting thoughts in Poppy's head, you know, from his perspective.

[Ricky]

But he's telling the police this information, and this, honestly, is kind of incriminating, like, maybe even a motive.

[Ashley]

And that's why it becomes suspicious, because, like, why? What was the point of you giving these tapes or doing these tapes?

[Ricky]

Yeah, it's like, okay, for one, you're wiretapping your own phone. But two, you have something against Leeta. It might have caused your divorce.

[Ashley]

Yeah, exactly. Now, these tapes, they had conversations where leda and Poppy talked about Some of the men that Leda had been dating, in Marvin's opinion, the tape showed that their wives danced and partied all the time. They also talked about how they had experimented with a little cocaine. And the conversations also had details about where the women went shopping, what they purchased, how much were their purchases, and details about Leda's attorney's divorce strategy.

[Ricky]

Oh, so that's the dirt.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And when Marvin provides Jim with this juicy information, he also mentions that he's going to stop recording and get rid of the recording device because he doesn't want anyone to find out about it. Jim thought otherwise.

[Ricky]

Well, of course he thought otherwise. Jim wants to get as much information as he can against Leda.

[Ashley]

Yeah, because he wants to hurt her. You know, he doesn't want to give her a dime.

[Ricky]

Oh, and you know what's interesting here is he used that information against her because if you remember, he was telling the police that she had a drug problem, she was using cocaine. Maybe this was a drug deal that went bad.

[Ashley]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ricky]

And it's because he had all of this knowledge that he shouldn't have had.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And it's like maybe she dabbled in cocaine or maybe it was like years ago in college, you know, because they were like college friends. So it's like maybe they were kind of reminiscing or you don't. We don't know, like, when it was happening. Like, it could have been present or it could have been like a while ago.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So Marvin, he listened to Jim. He didn't stop recording. He kept those tapes rolling. And once one tape was filled with conversations, the tape would then be delivered to Jim. Both Jim and Marvin would speak more than 20 times, like these guys had nothing else better to do. When Jim received these tapes, he would hold himself in his office in his Palm beach home, and he would listen to these tapes for hours and take plenty of notes. Then he would send a memo to his attorney. And there were times where he would ask Suki, who was there at the time as a live in girlfriend, to listen to these tapes. He also had Marvin fly down to Palm beach using a fake name so he can stay overnight and tell Jim all of the dirty tidbits he had about Lita. And Jim agreed to pay him $30,000 for all of this information.

[Ricky]

But, like, why? What's the point of doing all of this? It just seems so obsessive.

[Ashley]

It does. It's like, again, like, do you have anything else better to do?

[Ricky]

Not to mention, isn't wiretapping illegal? Yeah, I guess they don't care about illegal things, though.

[Ashley]

But, yeah, Jim kind of has a nice little, you know, record going.

[Ricky]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So if you're not a part of the conversation, it is considered wiretapping, which is a felony. So when Marvin returns home from Palm beach, he goes to get the latest tape that he had been actively recording while he was on his Palm beach trip, and he finds no tape. It's gone. He's freaking out. He races to the living room, where he finds Poppy playing the piano. And it's plain to him that she's upset. She's been crying. Her eyes show redness and puffiness. He tells her, I believe you have something that belongs to me. Poppy ignores him. She keeps playing the piano. Marvin slowly approaches the piano, and Poppy suddenly stops playing. And she tells Marvin, I want a divorce.

[Ricky]

Well, there goes their marriage.

[Ashley]

And so the next day, Poppy immediately gets a hold of attorney Richard Schiefman, the same attorney that Leda has. And Leda immediately calls the police to let them know that Marvin had been taping their conversations. When Marvin hears of the Fulton County District Attorney's office wanting to indict him, he gets rid of the tapes by dumping them into a dumpster behind the DeKalb County Mall. He also pleads guilty to invasion of privacy charges. Charges. And he gets two years of probation. Yet Jim never paid him the $30,000 that was promised for the information that he received from those tapes.

[Ricky]

Dang, that backfired. So Marvin gets caught. Then he doesn't get a cent of the $30,000 that he's owed, and he's getting a divorce. I don't know if I feel bad for him, kinda.

[Ashley]

Now, not only did Jim not pay Marvin anything, He also stole five of the 35T after listening to the 40 tapes. Jim was supposed to have returned the tapes to Marvin. And when he received them, Marvin realized that five tapes were missing. He asked Jim about them, and Jim said that he didn't know where they could have gone. Marvin knew that there was something suspicious about the situation.

[Ricky]

So Jim steals five tapes from him. This sly dog. But Marvin, at the same time, I don't feel bad for either of them. They're just scamming each other. I mean, perfect friends.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

Peas in a pod. How are you gonna charge your friend $30,000 for information about his wife?

[Ashley]

$30,000. My goodness. I mean, he could probably redo his kitchen for that.

[Ricky]

Couple kitchens.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah, back in the day. Now, on September 6th of 1991, Georgia FBI agents got another big break. The judge granted the warrant for them to search Jim's Palm beach estate. At the estate, local cops secure the perimeter. And by this time, FBI Special Agent Todd Letcher had taken over the murder investigation from John Kingston. Kingston was the one who discovered the hotel room. The three men who were suspected of participating in Leda's murder, who had spent the night the day before the murder. And he found out the roundabout location where these men were from, near the North Carolina town of Mooresville. Letcher, plus a dozen other agents, GBI Special Agent Ingram, and Atlanta Detective Harris, meet at a police station in Atlanta. And from there, they drive up to Jim's mansion at 920 S. Ocean Blvd.

[Ricky]

Oh, that should be good. Isn't he on house arrest, too?

[Ashley]

He is on house arrest for the perjury crime for which he was convicted. The one where he forced Sukie to pretend that she was driving in the car or whatever he was doing. Still, no one answered the FBI when they knocked on the door. Letcher knocked. He tried the intercom system. They even called Jim's lawyers in hopes of trying to find him, but they didn't have any luck. Letcher and other agents walk toward the back of the house, and Letcher pushes a pantry window open. The warrant stated that they could enter the estate without the owner's permission, so Letcher climbed into the mansion through the window. So once in the house, Agent Letcher tries to look for a key to unlock the back door, but he can't find one. Apparently, it's one of those doors that you have to use a key to open from both the inside and the outside. And Agent Letcher, he couldn't find a key, so he did the next best thing. He takes out his screwdriver, and he uses it to remove the door from the door frame. And as soon as he's done, the other officers enter the house and they start searching.

[Ricky]

He's doing some MacGyver stuff there.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Now, before the trip to the house, they actually had gone over the blueprints of the house to make sure that they were efficient in their search and also to make sure that they searched every room.

[Ricky]

Well, they would have to. I mean, this house wasn't like, 24 rooms or something.

[Ashley]

Yeah. It was gigantic.

[Ricky]

Well, the fact that they even had to use a blueprint to search it in our house, they'd be like, he's not in the kitchen. He's not in the living room. Clear.

[Ashley]

Yeah. As you can imagine, it was probably a lot of work for the team, along with all of the agents. They also had the FBI photographer and videographer who would walk through the house capturing footage of all of the rooms. And they had to keep track of all of these rooms that they entered with little yellow sticky notes. This helped them a little bit with their organization.

[Ricky]

It's like P. Diddy's house.

[Ashley]

They probably did something similar. I don't know. So FBI Special Agent Letcher, GBI Special Agent Ingram, and Atlanta Detective Harris, they knew the most about this case. They were most familiar with Jim and his personality. So they took over the search of Jim's wing of the house. His part of the house had his master bedroom, another bedroom which Jim used as an office, and also a living room.

[Ricky]

Did they find a statue of Jim?

[Ashley]

Sounds pretty possible, but no, they didn't find that surprising. But they did find Jim's 1991 day planner, the kind of planner where you can swap out pages from one year to the next. And the agents, they find pages from previous years. They take all those pages with them, all of Jim's financial records, and they also take his Rolodex.

[Ricky]

Rolodex? It's not like a Rolex, Right?

[Ashley]

That's what I was thinking too.

[Ricky]

It's one of those weird things that's like, totally outdated, where you can like kind of flip through business contacts, right?

[Ashley]

Yeah. One of those spinny things people used to put on their desk to, I don't know, put numbers on it or something, I guess.

[Ricky]

I saw a movie once.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And also in Jim's office, they find a 15 inch double barreled shotgun. They also search the rest of the house and they find three more weapons, including a rifle and another shotgun and a.38 caliber pistol. Thankfully, all of these guns are unloaded.

[Ricky]

Wait, isn't Jim a felon? He can't own guns.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I mean, he's on house arrest. This could be his one way ticket to prison.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So when they finish bagging and tagging the evidence, the team meets in the dining room to go over what they found and to list each item that they confiscated. Then they leave Jim a copy of the warrant and a list of all the items that they seized on the dining room table. It's when the team members are pulling away from the mansion in their cars that Jim drives up in Lita's old Mercedes, the one he claimed as his own. After Lita's murder, Jim had been at a downtown shareholder meeting. He was conducting business. A reason that he used to get out of his house arrest for part of the day.

[Ricky]

Could you imagine Seeing FBI agents leaving your house as you're coming home, I bet you his heart dropped.

[Ashley]

He's probably sweating bullets.

[Ricky]

Oh, pun.

[Ashley]

So when Jim arrives, Harris, Ingraham and Letcher, they asked to speak with him inside the house. They actually prepared a list of questions to ask him in case they ran into him. Ingram did some of the talking. He asked Jim pointedly, were you in any way responsible for Leda's death? Jim denies any involvement. No, I'm not, he said. Ingram then asks him, jim, tell me, do you think Leda's death was intentionally caused? Jim says, I have no idea. Then Ingram asked him, why do you think anyone would kill Leda? Jim repeats all of the stories he told earlier officers. It's like he was already programmed with the lies that he told. Leda's supposed addiction with the drugs, or maybe her parents had something to do with with her murder for the insurance money. You know the same old story.

[Ricky]

Well yeah, he always wants to ruin Leda's reputation in some way. Plus he had all that information on her.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And it didn't matter if these were lies or if they were an exaggerated form of the truth. He was determined to stick to his fabricated, overly rehearsed story.

[Ricky]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Ashley]

And yet Ingraham kept questioning him. Tell me why you would do something like this? He asks Jim. Jim didn't acknowledge the question. Unthinkable and inconceivable, he says. Ingram asks, what do you think should happen to the person who did this? Well, answers Jim, they should be put away. Wow.

[Ricky]

He's actually right for once.

[Ashley]

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[Ricky]

I thought this was a day planner. This is like a dear diary, Like a stalking diary. Dear diary. Suki broke my heart. I'm sad, Jim.

[Ashley]

I bet she didn't even know that this was going on at all.

[Ricky]

Well, he's definitely a controlling guy for sure.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Now, while the FBI and the Atlanta police could not find any solid evidence in the paperwork that they were looking through, they were able to get him for the weapons that they found inside of his home. Four days after the FBI raid, law enforcement officers arrested Jim and charged him with possession of a firearms by a felon and possession of an illegal sawed off shotgun. The shotgun he owned was actually 3 inches shorter than the legal limit. Now, the law may have changed since the time that Jim was arrested, but perjury in Florida is a third degree felony.

[Ricky]

So basically they can't get him for murder. So this is the next best thing.

[Ashley]

Just trying to get something, you know, like we gotta get this guy behind bars before he hurts someone else.

[Ricky]

It's like that Al Capone guy, right? They got him for tax Evasion.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's a lot like that. Now, Jim's lawyers, they tried to say that the guns belonged to a friend. They explained that a friend had stored the weapons in his basement, but the judge didn't buy it.

[Ricky]

Well, if you're a felon, you're not going to be doing that type of favor for a friend. You can't have firearms.

[Ashley]

Exactly.

[Ricky]

Not to mention, one of them was in his office, I think. Yeah, I'm keeping a good eye on it.

[Ashley]

Now, by this time, the judge had enough of Jim's foolishness. Since Jim had violated the requirements of his house arrest, the judge ordered Jim spend the remaining time that he had on his house arrest, which was the nine months in the Palm Beach County Jail. So, Jim, he is now in a cell, but he's not there for the charge that the McClintons and the Atlanta police and the FBI want him for. The police and the FBI still have to do some more digging.

[Ricky]

I don't know about you, but this is such a slow case. At least they have him locked up for something, but, man, like it is taking forever.

[Ashley]

Yeah, and not to mention, he's only going to be in there for nine months.

[Ricky]

Yeah. What happens after nine months? He gets out.

[Ashley]

The FBI knew that they had to dig deeper. Special Agent Letcher recalled the moment when he was drafting the affidavit for a warrant to search Jim's house when he came across new information. Well, to him, at least, about a police informant, Johnny Austin Turner. Turner had claimed to know who pulled the trigger, but at the time, investigators, they just brushed it off, assuming that he was just fishing for a reduced sentence. And now Letcher, he was wondering if maybe they had shelved that a little too soon.

[Ricky]

That was a guy who overheard something at a bar, right? Yeah, yeah, like a. Oh, I heard it was a hit type thing.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Now, this conversation, it was about his friend Thomas Bruce Henley and another man. They were hired to murder an African American in Georgia. And if you remember, in the photo lineup that Turner looked at Marvin Marble, he was pointed out as this other guy. And so Letcher, he's convinced, and he builds this extremely convincing case with this information. And this is all happening about a week after the FBI raid in response to the case that Letcher has built against Henley. The police arrest Henley. Henley was an easy one because he had a long rap sheet. Police had charged him with a variety of charges. Car theft, assault, firearms possession, and even impersonating a police officer.

[Ricky]

Impersonating a police officer. So why wouldn't he impersonate a flower delivery guy?

[Ashley]

Sure, no problem. Have some experience with that. Letcher believed that Henley and another violent criminal, Clinton Botts, had arranged the murder, while Marvin was the one who helped broker the deal between Botts and Henley. And the one behind the desire to get rid of Leda was Jim Sullivan.

[Ricky]

It's not a bad theory.

[Ashley]

Well, the problem is Henley is in jail for a month, but the court officials aren't able to indict him because the FBI and the Atlanta police are not able to find enough evidence to make this theory stick. It doesn't help when Henley's lawyers say that no one should believe the informant because Turner has numerous convictions and is only seeking leniency on those convictions. And Henley's boss provides an alibi for Henley. He says that Henley was at work during the time of the murder. Also, police are unable to find anything that ties Bots to the case either. So he never gets arrested. And Marvin, again denies that he has any involvement in the case. He says that he has no link to the case except the reckless wiretapping conviction he received for recording his wife's conversation. But that was it.

[Ricky]

You know, this goes to show just how complicated these cases can be.

[Ashley]

I know, right?

[Ricky]

It's nuts. It's like every time you find out more information, you hit another roadblock or dead end.

[Ashley]

I imagine these agents going through like a maze, like a really, like, detailed maze, and it's like they're hitting these walls and it's like, ah, yeah.

[Ricky]

Or it's like not having a body or something. Like, how frustrating that would be because you're like, come on. Obviously he did it.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it would be so frustrating. But even for the families, too, because they're on another side of it all where they just want justice, you know, and they're like, oh, my gosh, it's just horrible. It's a horrible thing.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Now, later, FBI Special Agent Letcher would say about the informant that Johnny Austin Turner was a piece of work. He was always angling to get what was best for himself. He wasted a lot of time chasing all of that down. Now, at this point, private investigator Patrick McKenna, who is based out of West Palm beach, has joined the investigation. But he's working for Emory Sr. And Joanne McClinton. They wanted his help to find a lawyer to take on a civil suit against Jim. And McKenna had just the guy, his buddy Brad Moore, who he knew from college.

[Ricky]

What would that lawsuit even do, though?

[Ashley]

I can't say for sure. So something many families of murder victims do is they file a civil lawsuit to ask for compensate for the loss of the victim. It's a lot like what Nicole Brown Simpson's and Ronald Goulman's families did when O.J. simpson wasn't criminally convicted for their murders. They sued in the civil courts and they received $33.5 million for their loss.

[Ricky]

I mean, I guess that makes sense. They probably didn't do it for the money. They're just really looking for justice. But. But also the money.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I mean, well, they're probably doing their own investigating. They're probably taking time out of work. They're probably completely devastated from this. And it's like, we just need something. The McClintons chose McKenna because he had experience working on high profile cases. He was a part of the investigation for the William Kennedy Smith case, where Smith, who is the nephew of the now deceased Ted Kennedy, who was arrested for rape in 1991. Later on, McKenna would also assist in the Simpsons defense. He was the one who uncovered, covered the Fuhrman tapes, which exposed Detective Mark Fuhrman making racist remarks. This discovery significantly impacted the case, casting doubt on Fuhrman's credibility and shifting the trial's trajectory in Simpson's favor.

[Ricky]

All right, so we got our guy. This. This is the one. He's going to bring us home.

[Ashley]

Yeah, this is what they need. And McKenna was happy to be helping the McClintons. He would later say about them, quote, they contacted me looking for someone to help them in the wrongful death suit. I thought of Brad Moores. We were both trying to build up a business, and neither of us could really afford to do it. The McClintons were ordinary people. They didn't have the kind of money you need to hire high powered legal staff. We knew the case would cost a lot to put on, but it was the right thing to do. As soon as I spoke to Emory McClinton, I was hooked. He and Joanne are wonderful people. What was incredible to me was that they believed in the system even after all of these years. So Brad Morse, he files a wrongful death case against Jim for the McClintons. This is the civil suit that Lita's parents brought against Lita's husband. As McKenna had mentioned when he spoke of the McClintons, he wanted to work with them, but he and Moores didn't have a lot of money saved up. And in a wrongful death case, the attorneys get paid at the end of the case once a judgment is settled. Therefore, Moores and McKenna brought on a second attorney to the team, Atlanta attorney David Boone. Boone was more experienced and he had more funds to disperse for their investigation.

[Ricky]

Okay, sounds like a good idea.

[Ashley]

Meanwhile, while Jim's in jail, he can't afford the Palm beach mansion anymore. Also, he lost $1.5 million when he invested in his former friend's company. If you remember George Bissell, he had not only swindled Jim, but many others when he encouraged them to invest in his Ponzi scheme.

[Ricky]

Oh, yeah, when he sucked up all his money in the metaphorical vacuum.

[Ashley]

Yeah, and so this didn't leave Jim a lot of money to pay the mortgage on his enormous mansion. So he sold the house for $3.2 million when he was in jail. Then he purchased a smaller but still high end house near Boynton Beach. When attorney Moore finds out about the house sale, he tries to have the courts freeze Jim's funds until a judgment in the civil suit is made. That money could be useful to the McClintons. Unfortunately, the judge denies this motion. It is at this point in the case that Moores believes Jim is starting to sock away different portions of his money in multiple offshore accounts. The problem is Moore's can't prove this.

[Ricky]

Well, again, I mean, Jim's trying to make sure that no one gets his money, especially not Leda or her family.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

So, Scrooge McDuck, here it is while.

[Ashley]

Jim is in jail that a federal grand jury indicts Jim on five counts of conspiracy to commit contract killing by the use of interstate phone calls. So if you remember from the last episode, a new statute had passed in 1984 which simply stated that if an individual uses the phone or nowadays, this statute includes the Internet, too. Across state lines to plan a murder, the crime automatically becomes a federal crime. When the Atlanta police discovered that a phone call made from a Georgia pay phone to Jim's Palm beach mansion in Florida, they believed the crime became a federal crime. And that indictment comes in the nick of time, too, because there's a five year statute of limitations on this crime. An indictment comes in just six days before the expiration date. Leda's murder was on January 16th of 1987. And the federal grand jury indicted Jim on January 10th of 1992.

[Ricky]

Holy cow. They didn't have any time to spare.

[Ashley]

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[Ricky]

But these are all circumstantial, like, where is the real evidence?

[Ashley]

I know. But when the news broke of all the indictments, the McClintins were happy with the news. But the news was also bittersweet, especially since the indictments came so close to the five year anniversary of Leda's death. A Palm Beach Daily News article quoted Joanne, Leta's mom, as saying, you wait for this so long. I was in shambles. I was so elated, yet so depressed because it is so close to the anniversary of Lita's death. And this brings it all back. In jail, Jim also finds some time to get a new romance kindling. He got himself a new girlfriend, a woman by the name of Karen Grinner. Later in court, Grinner would say she first met Jim when she was working as a property manager in Macon, Georgia, where Jim and Leda used to live before they moved to Palm Beach, Florida. The same day Jim sold his mansion, Grinner found and rented a three bedroom house at 377 Seabreeze. She paid $2,500 of the total for three months of rent of $5,550, and Sullivan paid the remaining $3,050. But this apartment turned out to be its own little fiasco. Grinner had stopped payment on her check because they found the apartment was filthy, overrun with cockroaches and mice. The owner, Francis Oiler, sued, but then Grinner and Sullivan countersued.

[Ricky]

Why is it that Jim cannot stay out of trouble? Like he keeps the court busy 247 he does then.

[Ashley]

On April 3rd of 1992, U.S. marshals escorted Jim from the Palm beach county jail to Georgia. Jim was required to answer for the federal charges. Jim had an arraignment he needed to attend. When Jim got there in court, he denied any involvement. He faced the judge and said, I plead not guilty, your honor. He also hired lawyers Ed Garland and Don Samuels to defend him on the murder case. Garland and Samuels are law firm partners, and they will go on to work on some famous Georgia cases, including former Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, when a Georgia college student had accused him of sexually assaulting her.

[Ricky]

Oh, I remember that.

[Ashley]

After the arraignment, Garland told the reporters, quote, I doubt if there is enough evidence that would allow this case to go to a jury. Jim denies his guilt as vehemently as he can, and he will testify on his own behalf. The prosecution has nothing to go on but innuendo, suspicion, and a desire to end an unsolved crime. Many others had motives to kill Lita, unquote. So just two weeks before being released from the Palm beach county jail, Jim had a bond hearing. It was on April 16, 1992. The magistrate agreed with the prosecutors that Jim is a flight risk. Therefore, the judge froze $2.9 million of Jim's assets. The $2.9 million was the amount of proceeds that he received from the house. The judge placed that amount in escrow, and they told Jim's attorneys that they couldn't give Jim any amount of this money from the escrow account. He warned them that Jim will lose the full amount if he flees. Karen Grinner, Jim's new girlfriend, showed up at the bond hearing on Jim's behalf. And she told the judge that Jim paid her fifteen hundred dollars a month to be his personal assistant. And they also talked about getting married. In April of 1992, Palm Beach county law enforcement officials released Jim from jail. Finally, he had some freedom, even though he had that murder case hanging over his head. And as soon as law enforcement officials released Jim, he was put on a budget of $8,000. The $8,000 covered the cost of his home, $1,500 for Karen's home. So when Jim came out of jail, he decided not to live with Karen. She had her own garage and apartment in Palm Beach. The $8,000 also covered Karen's salary as his personal assistant, among other costs. However, Jim's relationship with Karen did not last long. She broke up with him in July of 1992, and she returned to Georgia. Good for her. So Jim gave up the property that he was renting out for Grinner, and he sold the property I'd purchased in Boca Raton. Afterward, he purchased an apartment in Mariner village on Boynton beach. In that summer, Jim's main concern was this case. He spent long hours working with his defense team to respond to the charges for his murder case. The trial started on November 2nd of 2012. He appeared before judge Marvin Shub, who was a senior judge of the United States district court for the northern district of Georgia from September 30, 1991 to June 12, 2017. In 1992, Judge Shub was a World War II veteran, and he would have been in his second year in that seat. Jim made sure he was dressed well. He wore a smart gray business suit, a pale blue shirt, and a dark red tie. He had his shoes shined. He had his red curly hair trimmed and combed back, looking presentable. The jury, which had been selected the previous day, waited patiently for u. S. Attorney Robert f. Schroeder to make his opening remarks. The attorneys had begun jury selection on November 1, 1992, with 60 potential jurors, and only 16 made it through, where the attorneys questioned each of the jurors and and they selected which ones they wanted to sit on the bench. The jury consisted of 12 members and four alternates. Of the 12, eight were men and four were women. The group also had two schoolteachers, an engineer, an office manager, a software analyst, a geologist, a Georgia state government employee, and a city controller. U.S. attorney Robert F. Schroeder started with his opening argument. James Vincent Sullivan is a cheap and miserable man who is so preoccupied with his wealth, it was the be all and end all of his existence. He arranged to have his wife murdered. He arranged to have other people commit the brutal execution of his wife. He is cheap and miserly. He didn't want to lose anything. Leda, who gunned down just hours before a divorce hearing that could have Resulted in her being awarded a substantial chunk of Sullivan's fortune. He wasn't about to take that risk.

[Ricky]

Wow, they are describing Jim to a.

[Ashley]

T. Yeah, they did their homework for sure. Schroeder would continue with his opening arguments. He described the murder, saying how a trusting and innocent Leda would open the door to a killer. He said that his case would show that Sullivan was the mastermind behind Leta's murder. He said that they had been tipped off by an informant of three men who had plotted to kill the African American wife of a millionaire who was living in Florida. He also explained how the phone call showed the behind the scenes communications between Jim and the hitmen. Schroeder also pointed out that Jim said that he called the Howard Johnson Hotel because he wanted to book an upcoming trip. He told the courtroom Sullivan would have you all believe that he was trying to book a room for an upcoming trip. He said, referring to jim is not a Howard Johnson man. This is a Ritz Carlton man. Surely if he was trying to book a room, he would have talked to the desk clerk about a reservation. Instead, Schroeder mentioned how the phone records indicated the calls were made to a particular room, not the hotel's main desk. And the defense countered this by stating the prosecution's case lacks solid evidence or believable witnesses. The investigators have blinders on. They look at the facts and see only speculation and guesswork and what they want to see. You will not be told any details about the telephone calls made between the mansion and the motel. You will not know what was said or who said it because all they have is speculation. There's no proof about who made the calls and what was said.

[Ricky]

And honestly, that is the weakest part of the investigation.

[Ashley]

Ultimately, yeah, but it is still strange. What is he doing calling the hotel room?

[Ricky]

Oh, 100%.

[Ashley]

Another part of the defense strategy was to show that there was nothing unusual about the divorce. They made Jim seem like he was the husband made from heaven. He told the jurors that Jim did what he could to make Lita happy. They went on to say, Lita didn't work. Lita didn't contribute financially. She lived in a mansion and drove a Mercedes and had the fun his clothes. He had no motive to murder her, having spent lavishly on her. And they even played down the abuse Lita endured through the marriage. He made it seem to the jurors that the serious arguments Leda had with Jim were nothing more than small bickering each couple experienced in a marriage. He said that their Marriage was no more bitter than most. They had grown apart. The first witness to take the stand was Bob Christensen. He was the neighbor who had witnessed the killer delivering flowers that January 16, 1987. Chilly January morning. Christensen said from the second he saw the delivery man, he felt a chill go through his body. The hair on his neck stood up. He said, this was the same kind of instinct you have when you're going on a patrol or something like that, and you're afraid you're going to get hit, mind you. Christensen was also a Vietnam veteran, so he's familiar with danger. He continued to tell the court, you can't just lay your hands on why you're concerned. You just are. That's the instinct I had with this guy, like, just stay away from him. He continued to tell the court, quote, you can't lay your hands on why you're concerned. You just are. That's the instinct I had with this guy. Just, like, stay away from him, unquote. Then a few minutes later, he heard the shots. And when he heard these shots, he ran towards Leda's house. And he thought about running after the fake delivery man, but he wanted to check on Leda first. He was the one who knelt down beside her to see if there was anything he could do. And he was the one who ran to the kitchen to call 911. The next witness was another neighbor, Homer Deacon. He had also seen the fake flower delivery man. Another member of the housing community, Mary McIntyre, talked about how she almost hit a man while she was driving out of the community. This man was running out of there like a bat out of hell. She said, quote, the streets were damp, and as he swerved to turn towards West Pace's Ferry Road, he almost slid into my car. I veered to get out of the way, unquote. Then, if you remember, Randall Benson, the florist who sold the roses to the fake delivery man, he took the stand, and he recalled the tense interaction he had with the shady character who only cared about having a box filled with flowers. He didn't care about the colors, the kind, or how they were presented. He was rude and he was rushing him.

[Ricky]

I think out of all the witnesses, though, the florist is the best one. Like, he was able to paint such a picture, and he had so much information, not to mention he even described, like, the driver in the car and stuff like that.

[Ashley]

And he was the one who got to see him, you know, see his face.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Another interesting testimony was that of Marvin marble. He testified three days into the trial on November 5th of 1992. He was supposed to testify the previous day, but the testimonies from the other witnesses took longer than expected. Also, in exchange for the testimony, the state dropped the wiretapping charges. And. And it was during his direct examination by the state that Judge Shub had Marble sign a new immunity agreement. The jury was out of the courtroom while the new immunity agreement was signed.

[Ricky]

Well, that's convenient.

[Ashley]

Marble talked about how he recorded his wife's conversations over the phone and how Jim's eyes grew big when he found out that he might have some juicy information for him. He tells the jury how Jim had promised him $30,000 for the tapes, but he never saw a cent of that money. He discusses how he pleaded guilty to an invasion of privacy charge and had to serve a two year probation. At the end of the two years, his records would be sealed and there would be no record of the charge. Simply put, his record was expunged if he testified that day. The most intriguing part of his testimony was when he told the court of the phone call he had with Jim on January 13th of 1987, three days before Lita's murder. Marble said that Jim had called him and said, I need some information. It's very important. It's critical I get this information. Jim asked if Leda was still living at the condo and he wanted any information on her location or what she was doing. This was important because January 13th was the day when somebody had knocked early on Leda's door. But it was so early that Leda hadn't bothered to get out of bed. Detectives believe the hit was originally planned for January 13, but the plan fell through when Leda didn't answer the door. Jim panicked, thinking Leda had moved to another address. That's why he called Marble, seeking details about Leda.

[Ricky]

It's kind of fishy.

[Ashley]

And then on day four, the defense play a tape that reveals shocking information. The tape is of a conversation Jim has with his friend, Dr. Clyde Marlowe. LEDA and Jim were family friends of the Marlows, Clyde and Jed, when they lived in Macon, Georgia. Dr. Marlowe was an oral maxillofacial surgeon and he had his own practice in town. Dr. Marlowe knew Jim was a suspect, so he recorded the conversation. In this instance, the recording is legal because at least one of the parties, Dr. Marlow, knows the conversation is being recorded. When the court officers, including the judge, those sitting on the court pews and the reporters listening to the recording, they have to lean in a little to hear the conversation. Is a little difficult to hear, but they can hear the conversation. They're discussing the gun used to murder Leda. Jim tells Dr. Marlon, this is what is called a 9 millimeter automatic pistol. His Boston accent can't be mistaken for anyone else. He goes on to state, quote, the police tell me that the weapon that was used is a weapon never seen in Atlanta. Jim continues, apparently it has nine shells, or cartridges, whatever you call the bullets, Instead of the normal five or six, it's automatic, and it is the weapon of choice of Colombian and Cuban drug hit people. What makes this incriminating evidence is that when detective Harris testifies, He says that the police actually never told Jim or anyone else besides law enforcement officials what weapon was used to kill leda. So the question is, how did Jim know what type of gun was used to kill leda?

[Ricky]

Oh, they got him the smoking gun.

[Ashley]

Exactly. And when detective Harris was on the stand, he explains why they told no one about the weapon. He said, it's the Atlanta police department's policy never to give out the type and the caliber of the weapon used to commit a crime.

[Ricky]

That's pretty damn smart.

[Ashley]

My favorite part of Harris's testimony is when he contradicts what Jim says about how how drug traffickers tend to use these types of guns. He exhibits that Jim, who is arrogant and believes he is always the smartest person in any given conversation, had no idea what he was talking about when it came to weapons and crime. Detective Harris said, quote, the shooter had taken the gun with him. A professional hitman would have used a stolen gun that could not be traced back to him and would have dropped it at the scene. He adds that a 9 millimeter gun is usually not used in these types of crimes. Detective Harris further explains this by saying the 9 millimeter gun is a semi automatic weapon, and once it's fired, it ejects shell casings, and therefore you leave these things lying at the scene.

[Ricky]

So after all of that, years and years and years and years, that's what incriminates Jim.

[Ashley]

Yep.

[Ricky]

It's actually really, really nice to see Jim get caught in this way, because like we said in the past, he always thinks he's the smartest person in the room.

[Ashley]

Yeah, right.

[Ricky]

And to be outsmarted, like, using his.

[Ashley]

Words against him is like, ah.

[Ricky]

Oh, it's so good.

[Ashley]

The ultimate stab. Yeah. So that's the end of stolen the life and tragedy of Leda mcclinton.

[Ricky]

But, yeah, we want to thank you guys for everything. Thank you for listening. Thank you for putting up with us Being sick. Mostly just Ashley, because I have an amazing immune system.

[Ashley]

I know. Apparently, I don't. I'm kind of thinking I might have pneumonia, but I don't know. I'm gonna go get it checked.

[Ricky]

Maybe.

[Ashley]

But I'm also a hypochondriac.

[Ricky]

Very much so.

[Ashley]

And if you want to support our show, you want to support Crime Salad, it doesn't hurt to leave a five star review. You know, I know it's easier to say something negative than it is to say something positive, but we would really, really appreciate it. Last week, we hit 65 on the True crime charts, which is wa. Amazing to us.

[Ricky]

That's crazy. That puts us next to shows that we idolize, like little Crime Salad next to shows like Audio Chuck shows or.

[Ashley]

Yeah, we were one up from the deck. Ashley flowers the deck. So I was like, oh, my goodness. That's so cool.

[Ricky]

Right? It's crazy.

[Ashley]

But yeah, if you guys would like to support our show, doing things like reviews, or if you see forums that are like, what kind of true crime show should I listen to? You know, mention Crime Salad. Because those types of things help, you know, the more listeners we have or the more positive reviews we have help grow our show for sure. You know, if you see, like, one of our videos that we're making on our social media accounts, share them or comment on them, we'd greatly appreciate it.

[Ricky]

For sure. Let's see how far we can push this thing together.

[Ashley]

All right, well, I think that's good for this week, huh?

[Ricky]

I think so.

[Ashley]

We will see you next week.