The Suspicious Circumstances: The Death of Jennifer Harris

Summary

Crime Salad Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Suspicious Circumstances: The Death of Jennifer Harris
Date: January 10, 2026
Hosts: Ashley and Ricky

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the mysterious 2002 disappearance and murder of Jennifer Harris in rural Fannin County, Texas—one of North Texas’s most haunting unsolved cases. Ashley and Ricky reconstruct Jennifer’s life, the tangled relationships at its center, the troubled investigation, and the 20-year quest for justice that consumed her family, especially her father. The episode exposes small-town rumor mills, law enforcement missteps, and enduring community efforts to finally answer: what really happened to Jennifer Harris?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life and Character of Jennifer Harris

• Jennifer was described by friends and family as vibrant, outgoing, athletic, and creative. Her sister Alyssa called her “the heart of every room” and “adorable and lovable” ([03:22] Ashley).
• Jennifer dreamed of a life beyond Bonham, Texas, pursuing holistic wellness, artistic expression, and eventually moving away after high school ([04:26] Ashley).

2. Complicated Relationships and Turmoil

• Jennifer’s high school relationship and eventual marriage to Rob Holman became central, but troubles emerged following her mother’s death ([05:45] Co-host).
• After the passing of her mother, Jennifer changed, seeking new direction, which increased tensions with Rob who preferred a quiet, rural life.
• Jennifer later entered a relationship with James Hamilton, whom she met at massage therapy school, but both were entangled in other relationships—a “messy, emotional, intense” situation ([07:03] Co-host).

3. Escalating Stress Before Disappearance

• Jennifer’s romantic turmoil, financial collapse after her business with James Hamilton failed, and bankruptcy left her isolated and emotionally exhausted ([09:32] Co-host, [09:49] Ashley).
• She confided to her cousin she still loved Rob and wanted to return to Bonham, signaling a pivotal turning point before her disappearance ([10:46] Ashley).
• Her last confirmed sighting was at a friend Kristi Farr’s house on Mother’s Day, 2002, where she left to meet an unnamed person ([11:15] Ashley).

4. The Disappearance and Discovery

• Jennifer’s Jeep was found abandoned the next day; the circumstances and location were highly suspicious ([11:44] Ashley).
• A massive search ensued, culminating six days later when her nude and decomposed body was found in the Red River ([16:13] Ashley).
• Medical examiners could not determine cause of death; the condition of her body fueled wild speculation and rumors ([17:13] Ashley).

5. Key Suspects and Timeline Gaps

• Both Rob Holman and James Hamilton were investigated. James had a confirmed alibi and passed a polygraph; Rob’s timeline was vague (“five hours driving alone”) and uncorroborated ([14:24] Co-host).
• Notably, Rob admitted to seeing a Jeep that looked like Jennifer’s but denied any direct contact ([14:35] Ashley).
• Rob also acknowledged Jennifer had told him she was pregnant, but he doubted it ([20:32] Co-host).

6. Unusual Clues and Local Theories

• Blue mud found on Jennifer’s body, unique to specific Red River spots, hinted at possible locations and movement ([18:29] Ashley).
• On the same night Jennifer disappeared, a nearby riverside cottage burned to the ground; some believe evidence was destroyed in the fire ([22:01] Ashley).
• A year after the crime, witness Deborah Lambert came forward, recalling a woman matching Jennifer’s description being restrained by men near the river—though her account’s timeline was debated ([23:46] Co-host).

7. Failures in the Investigation and Community Fallout

• Critical evidence was lost during transfer between Oklahoma and Texas authorities; some was destroyed by water damage ([33:01] Co-host).
• A succession of sheriffs faced accusations of mishandling, lack of transparency, and refusal to bring in outside help (e.g., from “Cold Justice”) ([36:58] Ashley).
• Public pressure increased, especially during election cycles, bringing the case back to the community’s attention.

8. Family’s Struggle and Community Response

• Jennifer’s father, Jerry Harris, became the face of the fight for answers, but was often ignored or berated by officials ([35:52] Ashley).
• The Harris family and the community held vigils, petitions, and fundraisers, eventually helping oust the uncooperative sheriff in favor of Mark Johnson, who prioritized the case ([38:24] Co-host, [44:46] Co-host).

9. Modern Review and Continuing Theories

• New law enforcement attempts, forensic reviews, and documentary work have continued, but investigators express frustration at the thinness of the original investigation and lost opportunities ([47:52] Ashley).
• Two men—Rob Holman and James Hamilton—remained persons of interest, but neither has been charged; the DA’s office cited inability to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt ([49:14] Co-host, [53:20] Co-host).

10. Tragedy and Legacy

• Jerry Harris died by suicide in 2024 after years of physical decline, leaving a note that absolved any involvement with Jennifer’s death ([49:32] Ashley).
• The family insists they know who killed Jennifer—though they have not publicly accused anyone ([51:58] Co-host).
• Sheriff-elect Cody Shook has promised to reexamine the case using modern technology ([50:54] Ashley).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ashley on small town trust before the disappearance:
  “It felt safe enough to let your kids run around. You could leave your door open. Violence felt like something that happened somewhere else. And that’s what makes this night so unsettling…” ([02:44] Co-host)

• Alyssa’s memory of Jennifer:
  “She was friendly, outgoing, and endlessly creative…a goofball, the heart of every room.” ([03:22] Ashley)

• On Rob Holman’s alibi:
  “Five hours to just be driving around with no destination? I mean, that’s weird.” ([14:24] Co-host)

• On the loss of evidence:
  “Two years after Jennifer’s death, nearly all physical evidence tied to the case had vanished somewhere during the transfer from the Oklahoma medical examiner’s office to Texas authorities.” ([33:01] Co-host)

• Jerry Harris’s public statement:
  “The world is a dangerous place not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” ([35:52] Ashley, quoting Jerry Harris)

• On community efforts:
  “There were candlelight vigils, awareness rides, yard signs, and even a billboard. People in Fannin County wanted to make sure Jennifer Harris wasn’t forgotten and that her father didn’t have to keep fighting alone.” ([38:09] Ashley)

• On the heartbreak of unanswered justice:
  “With no physical evidence, cause of death, or way to place Jennifer with anyone in her final hours, prosecutors simply don’t have enough to take this case to trial.” ([53:20] Co-host)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jennifer’s life, background, and early adulthood: [02:24] – [07:03]
• Relationship turmoil and build-up to disappearance: [07:03] – [11:04]
• Last sighting, discovery of Jeep, and disappearance: [11:15] – [12:55]
• Body’s recovery, autopsy, and rumors: [16:13] – [18:29]
• Investigation into Rob Holman and James Hamilton: [13:15] – [15:16]; [19:55] – [20:32]
• Cottage fire and witness Deborah Lambert’s report: [22:01] – [25:15]
• Evidence lost and law enforcement controversies: [33:01] – [36:41]
• Community activism and sheriff race: [35:45] – [38:24]
• Modern investigation and current status: [43:07] – [49:14]
• Jerry Harris’s death and impact on the case: [49:32] – [51:58]
• Closing reflections and current call for information: [54:35] – [54:50]

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Tone & Style

Ashley and Ricky balance empathetic storytelling with gentle skepticism, blending the personal heartbreak of Jennifer’s family with the forensic frustrations of a bungled case. They maintain respect for the victim while questioning investigation failures and the destructive power of rumor in a small town.

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Conclusion

This episode captures the dizzying complexity and heartbreak of Jennifer Harris’s unsolved murder. It masterfully weaves the personal and systemic tragedies that keep the case unresolved: a beloved young woman’s life cut short, a grieving family’s relentless fight, investigative mismanagement, and a community still haunted by questions. Despite years of rumor and setback, Ashley and Ricky highlight the continuing hope that one tip or technological advance may finally deliver justice for Jennifer Harris.

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If you have information about Jennifer Harris’s murder, contact the Fannin County Sheriff’s office at 903-583-2143.

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(Summary skips all advertisements and non-relevant sections, focusing solely on case discussion and content.)

Transcript

[Ashley]

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[Ashley]

Hey Crime Sound listeners. Welcome to the podcast. And welcome 2026. We had ourselves a little break and we're ready to get back into the flow of giving you a healthy portion of true crime. I'm Ashley. And I'm Ricky and this is Crime Salad.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Please subscribe wherever you're listening and if you would like to support Crime Salad even more and get ad free listens, become an Apple subscriber or check out patre.com Crimesaladpodcast.

[Ashley]

So for this story, we are visiting the rolling fields of rural Fannin County, Texas, and it was the evening of May 12th of 2002. Mother's Day. The sun was setting, the air was warm and heavy as dusk settled along the Red River. Winding quietly between long stretches of farmland.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

It seems like a place where life moved at a slower pace. This was an evening where families Were finishing holiday dinners. Fishing poles rested against riverbanks. It felt safe enough to let your kids run around. You could leave your door open. Violence felt like something that happened somewhere else. And that's what makes this night so unsettling. Nothing out of the ordinary stood out. Nothing felt dangerous.

[Ashley]

Exactly. Well, that is, until sometime that night, a 28 year old woman disappeared and no one witnessed anything.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Fast forward 20 years, we're still asking the same question.

[Ashley]

What happened to Jennifer Harris? Jennifer Harris in Bonham, Texas. Everyone who knew her remembers her the same way. She was friendly, outgoing and endlessly creative. She had dreams, ambitions, and an incredible ability to make people feel seen. In high school, Jennifer was popular and athletic. A brilliant red haired girl with bright brown eyes. She played tennis, cheered on Friday nights and moved through life with effortless energy. Her sister Alyssa remembers her as a goofball, the heart of every room and someone who was adorable and lovable. Alyssa said Jennifer was also a dreamer and she always believed there was a bigger world waiting for her outside of her small town in Texas.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

So this is someone who seemed like they had a great support system. She pushed herself creatively and had big dreams for her future. And we're only at the beginning of this story and I'm already thinking like, how does someone like this go missing? It seems like they were really thriving.

[Ashley]

Yep, 28 years old, ready to take on the world. Now there's one name that almost always comes up when they speak about Jennifer. Rob Holman. Her sister Alyssa has explained that the two were an inseparable pair. They went all the way back to childhood. Jennifer was in sixth grade when she first started dating Rob, who was a year younger than her. And by high school, the two of them had become extremely close. Rob was basically a part of the family for as long as they could remember. And Jennifer absolutely adored him. But Jennifer, she had dreams, big ones that felt too large for a small town in Texas. She had the potential to explore horizons far beyond Fannin county. And she tried to do just that. So after high school, Jennifer moved three hours away to attend college, determined to carve out her own space in the world. A few years later, Rob followed her there. And by 1996, the two of them were married. And the wedding was absolutely beautiful. It was gorgeous and meticulously planned at the mansion in the countryside. It was the beginning of what seemed like a long life together. But a year after the wedding, Jennifer was hit with a painful loss. Her mother tragically died of cancer and it deeply shaped the way she moved forward in Life.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Alyssa said she could see the change in her sister. Jennifer learned a lot during those years. Became more open minded and more certain about the kind of life that she wanted. And it seems like the grief she was living with, it pushed her to the next chapter in her Life.

[Ashley]

And by 1999, that chapter took Jennifer and Rob to suburban Dallas, Texas, where they bought a house together.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

So, way different lifestyle than the country life they were used to. Yet on paper, they were building the life that everyone expected them to have. But inside the relationship, things weren't as smooth. Jennifer was growing and evolving in the wake of her mother's death. And it seemed like Rob was content with the slow rhythm of rural Bonham and his work in landscaping. While Jennifer thrived in the energy of city life, she embraced holistic medicine. She became increasingly health conscious and eventually enrolled in massage therapy school. And while there, she met a man by the name of James Hamilton.

[Ashley]

James Hamilton. He was spiritual, expressive, and part of the alternative wellness world Jennifer was drawn to. Their connection was apparently immediate and for Jennifer, eye opening. He shared many of her interests, maybe even the future she imagined for herself.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

But the situation was complicated. As we know, Jennifer was married to her high school sweetheart, and James was living with the mother of his child and expecting another. So from the start, this wasn't a clean transition into a new relationship. It was messy, emotional, intense.

[Ashley]

And Jennifer's family was worried. They watched her move forward in ways that didn't match the life she had built with Rob. And at the same time, they saw Rob struggling with those changes. There was obvious turmoil existing inside their home. Jennifer's family described signs that the relationship had become volatile. Her father said he noticed damage inside the home. And Jennifer's sister Lyssa recalled receiving a late night phone call from Jennifer. And in that phone call, Alyssa said Jennifer had told her she had been assaulted by Rob. However, Jennifer never reported that incident, and it's not something that we can independently verify. Her sister also remembered other moments that deeply concerned her. She said once, Jennifer called her late at night, her voice shaking, describing a situation where Rob came home intoxicated, acted aggressively, and forced himself on her again, Jennifer never reported this, and we can only share what her family later described.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Eventually, Jennifer finished school and made the decision to leave. She served Rob divorce papers, and Rob moved back to Bonham. Around that same time, James moved in with Jennifer and they began building a massage and wellness business together in suburban Dallas. At first, it felt like a fresh start. This was the next chapter. But that excitement didn't last. Long.

[Ashley]

Yes. So Jennifer soon realized that the connection she thought she had with James was not what she imagined. The infatuation faded, and by early 2002, she was trying to untangle herself from one relationship while still emotionally tied to another. On paper, Jennifer had moved on. She was divorced from Rob and building a new life with James. But beneath the surface, Jennifer was deeply entangled in relationships, pulling her in opposite directions. Her family later said that James wanted something serious, even marriage, and Jennifer did not feel the same way. Their relationship grew tense and argumentative. At the same time, the wellness business they had started together collapsed financially, forcing Jennifer into bankruptcy.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And that's an enormous amount of stress that's just falling on Jennifer's shoulders at this point. I mean, after her mother died, the years that followed included a failing business, a volatile relationship, and a divorce that was still fresh. I mean, that would weigh heavily on anyone, right?

[Ashley]

Just emotionally exhausted. She never had the chance to fully process her mother's death. And now every part of her life felt unstable. By early spring, Jennifer confided in her cousin that she was unhappy and no longer cared about the business. And then there was Rob. She told her cousin that she loved him, that she wanted him back, and she even told Rob that directly. And what complicates all this further is that Rob later acknowledged they were still sleeping together, even though Rob had a new girlfriend and Jennifer was still living with James. So essentially, Jennifer was in the middle of two men, one tied to her past and one tied to her future. But neither situation seemed healthy or stable. All of this led Jennifer to make a major decision. Her cousin saw her one day outside her apartment with a moving truck. Jennifer said that she was leaving Dallas and heading back to Bonham. Her cousin believed that she was doing it because Rob was there and that she was hoping to rekindle that relationship. No one realized it at the time, but this move marked a turning point. It was the last time her cousin ever saw her. And about six weeks later, Jennifer Harris disappeared.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Now, emotionally, it's hard to imagine a more complicated place to be. And all of this becomes even more important when we start to look at the timeline of Jennifer's final days.

[Ashley]

And that brings us to that Mother's Day in 2002. It was set up to be a quiet day in Fannin County. Jennifer spent part of her day with her father, Jerry Harris. And as the evening settled in, Jennifer drove to her friend's house, Kristi Farr. At around 8:30pm Jennifer got up to leave. But before she walked out, the door. She told Kristi that she was going to meet someone, but she didn't say who exactly. They said their goodbyes, and that was it. This would be the last confirmed sighting of Jennifer Harris. Whatever happened next between leaving Kristi's home and driving along those dark back roads remains one of the biggest mysteries in Fannin County. The next morning, Jennifer's family still hadn't heard from her. And then came a call her sister Alyssa would never forget. It was an officer telling her that Jennifer's Jeep had been found. According to a neighbor in the area, someone walking their dog along County Road 2610 noticed a green Jeep pulled off on the roadside the night before. At first, nothing seemed unusual, and it wasn't uncommon for cars to stop near the lake. But when the same neighbor passed again the following morning and saw the same Jeep still sitting there untouched, they grew concerned. And so they called the police. And when deputies arrived, they ran the plates and they confirmed that the Jeep belonged to 28 year old Jennifer Harris. Reportedly, the driver's door was unlocked and there were no obvious signs of a struggle. And nothing inside pointed to where Jennifer went or why the vehicle had been left there.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

That discovery triggered a full search effort. Deputies, volunteers and search teams spread across the back roads, fields and riverbanks near where the Jeep had been abandoned. But even with all of that manpower and the miles covered, there was still no sign of Jennifer. She was just gone.

[Ashley]

As soon as Jennifer's Jeep was found, investigators turned their attention to two people who had been closest to her in the final months of her life. James Hamilton and Rob Holman. But both agreed to sit down with investigators voluntarily. They were read their rights and both insisted that they had nothing to do with Jennifer's disappearance. Investigators looked closely at James Hamilton early on. They said they were able to verify an alibi for him that night, and he was not charged. According to the police file, James had been with a friend more than an hour away from Bonham. The two were at a McDonald's around the time that Jennifer vanished, and investigators reportedly confirmed that alibi. On top of that, James agreed to take a polygraph and he passed. But the picture looked a little different when it came to Rob. Reportedly. From the beginning, Rob seemed nervous about the fact that he didn't have anyone who could back up his whereabouts that night. He told investigators that he had gone out to buy a beer and he planned to visit some friends. But when his friends weren't home, he said that he spent nearly five hours driving along the back roads of Fannin County.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Okay, I get taking a long drive to clear your head and be alone, but five hours to just be driving around with no destination? I mean, that's weird.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And when investigators pressed him whether he had seen Jennifer that night, Rob insisted that he hadn't. But he did tell them that he saw a jeep that looked like hers, which was interesting. But at that point, investigators still didn't have enough to tie anyone to Jennifer's.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Disappearance, which makes things interesting about Rob. In the police interview, he clearly states that he was at a red light when she was at a red light and that they turned in different directions. Now, during the recorded police interview with Rob, it seems like this wasn't something that was a red flag. And regardless, at that point, investigators felt like they didn't have enough to tie anyone to Jennifer's disappearance.

[Ashley]

Meanwhile, Jennifer's family was living a nightmare. Three days had passed since anyone had last seen her, and every hour felt like a lifetime. Her father barely slept. He spent his days driving the same country roads, scanning fields, checking ditches, and even watching the skies for buzzards, thinking maybe something would show up. It's something no parent should ever have to do. But he refused to stop searching. The official search continued for days. Deputies, volunteers, and family members covered mile after mile of rural Texas. And with each passing day, the worry grew heavier. Then, six days after Jennifer vanished, the search came to an end. It was on May 18th of 2002, when a local fisherman on the Red river noticed something drifting with the current, something that immediately felt wrong. And as it moved closer, he realized it appeared to be a human body, and he contacted the authorities. What happened next is described differently depending upon the account. Some reports suggest that the current of the river made it difficult to keep sight of the body before law enforcement arrived. What is clear is that the investigators eventually recovered the remains and confirmed the worst. It was Jennifer Harris. She was found completely unclothed, and the time spent in the river had taken a devastating toll. The condition of her body made it incredibly difficult for the medical examiner to even determine how exactly she died, leaving crucial questions unanswered from the very beginning.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And this was terrible. Jennifer's sister remembers arriving at the bridge over the river and seeing law enforcement gathered bank and then seeing her father with them. For her, it didn't feel real. She kept pleading to see Jennifer, desperate for some confirmation that it wasn't her. But it was.

[Ashley]

It's so tragic. And for Jerry, he says that those moments played out in slow motion. Everything he feared in those long nights searching became True, but finding Jennifer's body answered one devastating question. Where she was. But it left every other question wide open. Her body was badly decomposed when recovered, and her uterus was missing, which became very alarming. Although later reviews suggested that it was most likely caused by river decomposition or even turtles. That was the explanation, not a surgical removal. That kind of uncertainty, it doesn't stay quiet for long, especially not in a place like Bonham. Bonham is the kind of community where everyone knows everyone. And when Jennifer disappeared, it hit hard. She wasn't far removed from her high school years, and people remembered her. So when the word spread that her body had been found, on top of that, the circumstances looked suspicious. The entire town was affected.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Jennifer was only 28. She was a young woman figuring out her life. Losing someone that young under these circumstances would leave anyone unsettled. As officials struggled to explain what happened, people started to fill in the blanks themselves.

[Ashley]

Meanwhile, investigators kept digging, and one clue in particular stood out. Something not found in Jennifer's autopsy, but on her body itself. A private investigator who investigated the case years later noticed traces of an unusual blue mud on the front of Jennifer's torso. Now, according to the fisherman, that specific sediment could only be found in a couple of locations along the Red river within several miles of where she was recovered. It wasn't common, so what was likely was that wherever Jennifer came into contact with that mud might have been the place she entered the water. One of those rare deposits was right along the riverbank near where her jeep was found. It wasn't enough to determine how she died or even exactly where, but it seemed like the first breadcrumb between Jennifer's remains and a specific stretch of river that could help investigators understand what happened to her in those final moments. But detectives went back to focusing on the two men who had been closest to her. Rob and James. From here, Rob revealed that on the very day Jennifer disappeared, she called him. According to his account, she wanted to see him, but he told her he already had plans with his girlfriend. He said Jennifer got upset when he wouldn't come over, and that was the last time they spoke.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And Rob did offer to take a polygraph to back up his story. But for reasons that were not fully explained at the time, that test was never given. Investigators let him go home and moved on to the next layer of the case, the part involving a secret Jennifer had told her closest friend just weeks before she died.

[Ashley]

Her best friend later told detectives that Jennifer had confided in her about being overwhelmed, that her life was Complicated. And she was dealing with more than people knew. And during that same conversation, the friend said Jennifer told her she was pregnant and that it was Rob Holman's.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And as you can imagine, this story opened up a new line of questioning. A small town already buzzing with fear and speculation. People talk. And started to wonder whether the alleged missing uter was actually missing because of decomposition or because someone intentionally removed it to conceal a pregnancy. Rob Holman himself acknowledged that Jennifer told him she was pregnant during a conversation about a month before she disappeared. He didn't believe her, telling investigators that he didn't think she was pregnant and that he didn't think Jennifer truly believed she was either. It was something investigators could neither confirm nor rule out. And with no cause of death, no clothing, no weapon, and no way to determine whether Jennifer had actually been pregnant, the investigation was forced to lean on the people in Jennifer's life and circumstantial evidence. Not far from the same bank where Jennifer was thought to have died, there used to be a small cottage. And when I say used to, it's because that cottage didn't survive the night that Jennifer disappeared. This is probably one of the weirdest parts of this case. So on that same night, when Jennifer went missing, the cottage burned to the ground, and nobody knows why. If Jennifer had met someone near the river after leaving Christie's house, this spot would have been one of the few places where no one would have seen them.

[Ashley]

And if something happened to Jennifer there, that cottage could have held crucial evidence. Fibers, blood, trace materials. A fire would have erased nearly everything. That's why many people believe the fire may have been intentional. Investigators and private investigators have questioned whether the fire was connected to Jennifer's disappearance because a structure burning that same night could have destroyed potential evidence. But the cause of the fire has never been publicly confirmed, and not everyone agrees it was connected. Without anything concrete to move the case forward, the investigation stalled. Like so many other cases that we've talked about, it just went quiet. About a year after recovering Jennifer's body, something surfaced that would haunt investigators. A woman named Deborah Lambert came forward after seeing a news report about Jennifer's disappearance. She said that on mother's Day, the same night Jennifer vanished, she was driving across the Red river bridge with her mother when she noticed something on the roadside. According to Debra, she saw a group of four people, three men and one woman. And the woman had reddish brown hair, and the two of the men appeared to be holding her by the arms, as if she were trying to pull away. And Debra said That she made eye contact with the woman, and the look on her face terrified her. She said her mother had the same reaction. Both of them felt like something was very wrong, but neither of them called the police that night. Deborah later said fear and uncertainty kept her from getting involved. She questioned what she had just seen and convinced herself maybe it was something innocent.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

I mean, that's hard to hear, but I think a lot of people freeze in moments like that. People second guess themselves. They hope that they're wrong.

[Ashley]

Apparently, there was also a timing issue. Debra believed that this happened around 5 o' clock in the evening. But Jennifer didn't leave her friend's house until closer to eight that night. For some investigators, that discrepancy was enough to dismiss her account. But not everyone agrees. A cold case consultant later reviewed Debra's statement and said timing errors are common, especially when witnesses don't realize that they're seeing something important. What mattered more was the location and the description. If Deborah's memory was even partially accurate, she could have been the only person to see Jennifer after she left her friend's house. Years later, Deborah told investigators that one of the men she saw resembled Rob Holman. She was also shown a lineup and identified him. But there was no clear documentation of how that identification was conducted. Without that information, investigators could not rely on it with confidence. And once again, the case went quiet. In 2010, eight years after Jennifer's death, investigators made it clear the case was not closed. Acting on new information, they obtained permission from the Harris family to exhume Jennifer's remains. It was a drastic step taken in hopes that modern review might answer questions the original autopsy could not.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

But the strange part is that even though the sheriff's office said that they were under strict orders not to discuss specifics, there's no public information about what came from that exhumation.

[Ashley]

Right. There were no updates released about the results. And then in 2011, Jennifer's case came back to life Through Darryl Parker, A retired lieutenant with the Fannin County Sheriff's office, He took a personal interest in the case. One of the first things Parker did was was returned to the site of the caretaker's cottage that had burned down. He led a team to excavate the area around the foundation, turning over soil in hopes of uncovering anything that may have survived the fire. And behind the foundation was an old well, Another potential hiding place. Parker and his team drained it. They pulled out water and sludge, then digging through the muck at the bottom, just searching for any trace of anything that would help. But after all that work, they found nothing. Darryl Parker was adamant that Jennifer had been murdered, and he had an idea of who did it. So he visited Rob Holman's house with a stack of photographs, and one of those photos showed Jennifer swimming in muddy water. Parker said that Holman locked onto that image immediately, staring at it intently.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And Holman actually called Parker later that same day, wanting to talk. But Parker made a decision that he still regrets. He scheduled the conversation for the next morning so he could record it at the sheriff's office. And by then Holman consulted an attorney. So that conversation never happened. And Parker said that he believed Rob was ready to tell him something important that day.

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[Ashley]

I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three? Steven because he's so evil, I do.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Think he is misunderstood.

[Ashley]

You see everyone face consequences. It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick ya. There's always a twist in this show. It's nothing you would expect. Tell Me Lies, the official podcast, January 6th, and stream the new season of Tell Me Lies January 13th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. From the darkest corners of our imagination.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Comes a game show that's more ridiculous than terrifying.

[Ashley]

Welcome to Tickled to Death. I'm your host, Roz Hernandez, and I'll be guiding guests through the creepy questions and chaotic games, all to win the.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Ultimate title of horror movie champion.

[Ashley]

Listen to Tickled to Death wherever you get your podcasts and hit follow. Unless you want the show to follow, follow you. So for years, Jennifer's case sat in limbo. Leads dried up, and for a long time, it seemed like the case would never move forward again. But in 2015, the Texas Rangers, working under renewed interest from the Department of Public Safety, took another look at Jennifer's file. This time, they focused on the autopsy, which had been completed in Oklahoma because the that's where Jennifer's body was discovered. But Texas had never conducted its own review of that autopsy. The Rangers believed modern forensic techniques might reveal details that weren't detectable back in 2002. So they approached the Fannin County Criminal District Attorney and pushed for the Dallas county medical examiner to reassess the findings. Unfortunately, the state agencies didn't have the funds to pay for it.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

So the DA went to the Fannin County Commissioner's Court and asked the county to step in, and they agreed. They approved up to $3,000 so a forensic pathologist could revisit the autopsy with fresh eyes and newer technology.

[Ashley]

And according to those forensic experts in Dallas, they concluded that Jennifer's missing uterus, it wasn't forcibly removed at all. It had been destroyed in the river by turtles and fish. To them, nature, not a killer, caused the absence that fueled so many rumors about what happened. Despite that conclusion, the pregnancy rumor refused to die in Bonham along with others. One of the most shocking rumors centered on the district attorney overseeing the case, Miles Porter. Locals began whispering that he had been involved in Jennifer's death. Porter said that he was blindsided. There was no evidence, and he had never even met Jennifer Harris. The rumor was baseless, but the fallout was real.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Porter said it cost him his reelection. And even years later, people would approach him and say that they believed it. It's a brutal example of how speculation can damage real lives, and it can also muddy the water of an investigation.

[Ashley]

Right. And Daryl Parker even made it clear that in his view, and based on the evidence, nothing points towards miles porter or any other stranger. Parker believed the most likely person responsible Was someone close to jennifer. But it still wasn't enough to move the case forward. So by late 2015, Jennifer's family was frustrated. I mean, 13 years had passed, and despite bursts of renewed attention from law enforcement, no real progress had been made. That's when a petition was launched Asking the fannin county sheriff's office to bring in outside experts, Specifically the investigative team behind the television series cold justice. Around the same time, news outlets began releasing new confirmations About Jennifer's case. Jennifer had told more than just her friend ann rob that she thought she might be pregnant in the weeks before she vanished. She had also shared it with her father, and he believed it. Investigators reviewing the case said it was possible. But even with suspicion of foul play, the investigation was still missing hard evidence.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And then comes the part that makes this case even harder. According to reporting at the time, two years after Jennifer's death, the sheriff's office publicly announced that nearly all physical evidence tied to the case had vanished Somewhere during the transfer from the oklahoma medical examiner's office to texas authorities, Critical items were reportedly lost. I mean, this is catastrophic.

[Ashley]

The texas rangers had initially focused on Jennifer's former boyfriend, James hamilton. But with no surviving evidence and no confirmed cause of death, the investigation stalled. At the same time, controversy was growing around the case with pressure, rumors, and distrust in how the investigation had been handled. And the sheriff at the time didn't appear eager to share his files. And meetings with news outlets kept getting postponed. But people were asking questions again, and they believed someone knew more than what they were saying. And a big example was Deborah lambert, the witness who came forward a year after Jennifer's death. But no one can follow up with her anymore since her and her mother have both passed away. By early 2016, Jennifer's case became a political flashpoint. In fannin county, A new sheriff's race was underway. And for the first time in years, the investigation into Jennifer's death Took center stage in the public debate. A candidate named mark johnson entered the race, and he made his stance very clear. He believed Jennifer's case deserved more attention, More accountability, and more transparency. He even displayed the words justice for jennifer Crossed the back of his truck as a statement of purpose and a promise that her case wouldn't be silent anymore. But that message, it didn't sit well with his opponent, the sitting sheriff, Donnie foster. Donnie foster and some of his supporters Accused Johnson of exploiting Jennifer's death for political gain. They claimed it was inappropriate and Offensive. Mark pushed back, arguing that the only people offended by the words justice for Jennifer were the people who failed to provide it. Now, for years, Jennifer's father had been fighting alone, begging officials to prioritize his daughter's case. Now, with the public movement behind him, Mark Johnson insisted that demanding justice was accountability. He openly criticized what he described as years of mishandling through lost evidence, missed opportunities, and the sheriff's refusal to accept outside professional help when it was offered. He argued that if the investigation had been handled properly, the case wouldn't need to be reopened at all.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And he even told people to speak directly with Jerry Harris, who lived this Nightmare for almost 14 years.

[Ashley]

Right. And Jerry Harris, he released his own public statement during this time in the form of a letter. He opened it with a quote, the world is a dangerous place not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. He said that as his daughter's investigation unfolded, key witnesses came forward through video, but were never interviewed during the initial investigation by the Fannin County Sheriff's Office or the Texas Rangers. He also said Jennifer's car keys had been found, along with the clothes that she was wearing at the time of her death, her laptop and her phone, and. And that those items later became missing. He described being ignored and yelled at by officers when he pushed for justice.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Jerry also publicly claimed that the autopsy supported the idea that Jennifer did not simply drown and that something happened to her before she entered the water. Investigators have never publicly released enough detail for the public to fully verify that claim, though.

[Ashley]

Cold justice offered to investigate Jennifer's case at no expense. But that opportunity was denied by the acting sheriff. Jerry also addressed the reason that Sheriff Foster gave for denying Cold Justice. Foster said, quote, we will not try a case in the media that may be lost in the courtroom later because of carelessness. Gerry pushed back and pointed to the credentials of the Cold justice investigators. Kelly Siegler is a Texas attorney with more than two decades in the Harris County DA's office, including extensive experience prosecuting murder in cold cases. Yolanda McClary spent 26 years with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, and much of that time was in the crime lab investigating thousands of serious crimes. Jerry also said that he had been told Sheriff Foster planned to communicate with Cold Justice. But Jerry attached an email from Cold justice, and that, he said, showed the sheriff repeatedly rescheduled and canceled meetings to review the case. So, I mean, it was pretty clear who Jennifer's father supported during the sheriff's race. And the community momentum grew. Fast. The justice for Jennifer page exploded with support. There were candlelight vigils, awareness rides, yard signs, and even a billboard. People in Fannin county wanted to make sure Jennifer Harris wasn't forgotten and and that her father didn't have to keep fighting alone.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And it worked. Mark Johnson unseated Donnie Foster as sheriff of Fannin county, giving Jennifer's family new hope that the movement might actually happen.

[Ashley]

This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. You can't solve every case for your kids, but with Greenlight, they'll have the instincts and money skills to stay out of trouble. With a Greenlight debit card and money app, parents can monitor spending and teach financial responsibility. Educate your kids as they grow from earning allowance and tracking chores to learning how to save and invest. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] Spotify.

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[Ashley]

I'm Mandy. And I'm Melissa. And this is Moms and Mysteries. We're two Florida moms obsessed with true crime, from infamous cases like Ellen Greenberg to shocking Florida stories like the Dan markel killing. With 55 million downloads, we bring you new deep dives every Tuesday and Thursday. Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple podcast, podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Part of the renewed attention on Jennifer's case came from two witnesses that Jerry Harris referenced in his letter. Through the Riding for Justice Facebook page, it became clear that three people were actually responsible for discovering Jennifer's body. One of them was Christy Strickland. According to her account, she, her husband and another man had gone out fishing early that morning. And as they moved along the river, they noticed buzzards circling something in the water. And when they got closer, they realized it was a body. Jennifer was floating face down, and they immediately left the area and returned with law enforcement. Christy said she and her husband stayed on the riverbank while investigators went back out on the water. And what followed, in her words, was chaos. The inflatable boat brought by investigators. It wouldn't start, and the officers struggled to locate the body. And eventually they used the same boat Christy and others had been in to recover Jennifer from the water, bringing her to the bank without a body bag. Christy said that they were asked to write statements, but they were never questioned any further. And she described the scene as disorganized and overwhelming, with no clear direction and little coordination. Now, eventually, when the media arrived, she and her husband left. And she later said that what should have been a day focused on justice for a young woman instead. It felt like a circus, one where responsibility was being avoided rather than taken.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And Eugene Dollar, the man who originally spotted Jennifer's body and called the police, shared a similar account.

[Ashley]

Right. And Eugene also gave a recorded statement to Riding for Justice. He said that when law enforcement arrived, Fannin county deputies were the first on the scene and demanded that he take them to the location of the body in his boat, even threatening to seize it if he refused. Eugene said that he had actually called the Oklahoma county sheriff since the location of the body was in Oklahoma waters. And when multiple agencies arrived, six people loaded into his boat and headed back to where he had first seen Jennifer. But by then, the body had shifted with the current. According to Eugene, investigators began questioning whether he had really seen anything at all. And he pleaded with them to move quickly, explaining that rising waters and river movement could cause the body to drift. Despite that, he said his concerns were brushed aside. Eugene kept searching on his own and eventually found Jennifer again. And he said they waited with her body in the water for roughly 30 to 45 minutes while officers tried to unsuccessfully start the inflatable boat. Finally, Eugene suggested that they use his boat to recover her, and investigators agreed. And Jennifer was brought to the shore without a body bag. After giving his statement, Eugene said the only person who ever followed up with him was Jerry Harris, who asked if he would be willing to speak with the Texas Rangers. Eugene agreed immediately, but no one ever contacted him.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

It's hard to understand why no one followed up with them. I mean, that's three first hand witnesses to a critical moment.

[Ashley]

I agree, and unfortunately, there isn't a clear answer for why that never happened. But around this time, there was finally movement elsewhere. In January of 2017, Mark Johnson took office as sheriff of Fannin County. One of the first things he asked for was Jennifer Harris's case file. What he found shocked him. The file was so thin, it was filled with repetitive reports and limited documentation. Some physical evidence had been stored in outdoor pods that later leaked water. Water had seeped inside them, damaging paperwork, contaminating materials, and destroying items that could never be replaced. Sheriff Johnson publicly acknowledged that the case appeared to have been mishandled. And he said he couldn't say whether it was due to inexperience, lack of training, or maybe something else, but he took responsibility for what the department had inherited. He also made a major declaration. Jennifer Harris's death was being treated as a homicide. Johnson stated that there were two primary Rob Holman and James Hamilton. He said the public needs to know what we're looking at and who we're looking at, and those two names are at the top of the list. He added that Rob Holman had refused a polygraph and he hired an attorney, while James Hamilton had taken a polygraph and passed. The sheriff worked with the Harris family to establish a $50,000 reward for information leading to solving the case. He also said he hoped to revisit opportunities that have previously been denied, including outside investigative assistance.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

So he really did what he said he was going to do, Calling it a homicide alone. That was huge.

[Ashley]

It was. And while much of the investigation continued behind the scenes, those close to the family said progress was being made. By late 2017, the sheriff reassured supporters that the case was active and ongoing. And by 2018, multiple experts were involved, including Darryl Parker, the former sheriff's lieutenant turned private investigator, who continued working the case without ever charging the family. And around the same time, Jennifer's brother in law, filmmaker Barry Wernick, began documenting the case. And in the process, he uncovered gaps in the original investigation, tracked down people who had never been interviewed, and followed leads that had been overlooked. Over time, Barry and Jennifer's sister Alyssa became convinced the truth was already there, waiting to be pieced together. And in 2019, another fresh set of eyes entered the case. It was private investigator and CBS news consultant Joe Morna. He flew in from Boston to Dallas to review the investigation as it stood. His task was determine whether the facts actually supported the conclusions investigators had reached. And what he found didn't inspire confidence. Mora described the case file as extremely thin for a homicide that had been open for so many years. To him, it reflected an investigation that had never been properly structured from the very beginning. After meeting with Sheriff Johnson, Mora revisited key locations, including the burned caretaker's cottage near the river. And he actually didn't believe that it was a viable crime scene. In his view, if someone had murdered Jennifer and disposed her body in the river, setting a fire nearby would only draw attention. Didn't make any sense to him. Maura also reviewed the leading theories. One suggested that Jennifer's death was tied to a possible pregnancy. Another pointed to pressure she may have placed on her ex husband. Maura challenged both, and he noted that Rob himself doubted Jennifer was pregnant and that investigators had accepted parts of his statements without fully exploring inconsistencies. And he was also particularly troubled by how quickly James Hamilton had been ruled out. Mora pointed out that James finances were closely tied to Jennifer's and that he had reportedly asked about life insurance just two months after her death. To Mora, Hamilton's alibi was not airtight, and he questioned whether it had ever been fully vetted, especially given the broader failures in the case. But even with fresh perspectives, renewed effort, and years of additional work, there still wasn't enough evidence to make a move. And that's where Jennifer's case stands. So in 2022, the Harris family reached a milestone that they never imagined facing the 20th anniversary of Jennifer's unsolved death. But the family spoke about renewed momentum. Between their own investigation, the work of private investigators, and the cooperation of law enforcement. New developments had surfaced. After so long, there was finally a feeling that justice might be within reach. And the push to tell Jennifer's story only grew stronger. Barry Wernick announced that a docu series was underway. And at the same time, a true crime reporter who had become close to the family dedicated an entire season of her podcast Final Days on Earth, to Jennifer's case. For Lissa, the support meant everything, and she described the anniversary as bittersweet. The grief had never been softened, but the hope was new. And she wanted the world to know that Jennifer's story still wasn't over. So even with the renewed momentum and years of additional investigative work, Sheriff Mark Johnson confirmed that Jennifer's case was still active, but far from solved. Two decades later, Jennifer's death is still officially being treated as a homicide. But despite all the suspicion, there is still no physical evidence linking any single person to her murder. And he revised his earlier statement that Rob Holman and James Hamilton were prime suspects, identifying them instead as persons of interest.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

I mean, I get why they had to do that, and they may know in their hearts and minds who's responsible, but if they can't prove it in court, they can't just keep calling them suspects without evidence. And it's sad and disappointing, but it's just the reality of the situation.

[Ashley]

So from there, nothing new surfaced in the case. And for more than 20 years, one man carried all the weight. Jerry Harris. Friends described him as heartbroken and worn down from the decades of grief and disappointment. And it resulted in another tragedy in the family. In 2024, Jerry Harris died by suicide in the parking lot of the Fannin County Sheriff's Office. He left A note stating his death had nothing to do with Jennifer's case. One investigator said he remembered Jerry as a man swallowed by sadness, a father who spent 20 years bewildered by the brutality of his daughter's murder and the failures that followed. Jerry didn't live to see justice for Jennifer. But even in his final years, he told reporters he was grateful for renewed attention, grateful that people still cared and that his daughter's story still mattered. And his death sparked another turning point. The incoming sheriff elect Cody Shook publicly committed to reexamining every cold case in the county using modern technology, including Jennifer's.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

After news broke that Jerry had passed away, the Internet erupted with speculation. So the justice for Jennifer Facebook page released a statement putting insensitive and untrue rumors to rest.

[Ashley]

Jerry had been fighting a long, quiet battle with Parkinson's disease, linked to exposure to Agent Orange during his service as a Marine courier in Vietnam, which had taken a severe toll on his body in the last years of his life. He also developed a serious heart condition that made even crossing a room dangerous. Fainting spells led to injuries. Broken bones were not uncommon, and he had to stop driving. The family described him as selfless, worried more about inconveniencing others than about his own declining health. So it is believed, as he said, that Jerry's death was not connected to Jennifer's case, but the result of a man who wanted dignity and didn't want his family to carry the burden of watching him suffer through the final stages of diseases that were taking everything from him. Jerry did not die searching for answers. He passed away having made peace with what he believed happened to his daughter. In their words, the family knows who killed Jennifer, and they believe Jerry knew, too.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And even though no one in the family has explicitly said who they think is responsible, many of the independent investigators haven't been afraid to say that they think it was Rob holman.

[Ashley]

Right. When 48 Hours investigated this case, they repeatedly attempted to speak with both persons of interest. Letters were sent and calls were made, but James Hamilton never responded. Rob Holman eventually answered his door during one of the reporting trips, but only after requesting that the cameras be turned off. Off camera, he apparently told reporters he didn't see Jennifer the night she disappeared, and he said his attorney advised him not to discuss the case with anyone. Holman's attorney later released a statement emphasizing that his client has never been arrested or charged. He said Holman has maintained his innocence from the beginning, even as he felt like he was treated like a suspect from the earliest days of the investigation. So after reviewing every document, every interview, and every theory over the years, the case is still stuck. Joe Morna has said that in his view, Jennifer's case isn't just cold, it's frozen. With no physical evidence, cause of death, or way to place Jennifer with anyone in her final hours, he believes prosecutors simply don't have enough to take this case to trial.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And legally, he's right. A good prosecutor won't take a case to court unless they can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Without evidence linking anyone to Jennifer, a jury wouldn't have anything to hold onto. So that case, it would just collapse before it even began.

[Ashley]

But not everyone accepts that ending. Sheriff Mark Johnson, up until his end of term, refused to close the file. Daryl Parker never walked away. And he promised Jerry Harris that he won't stop until someone is held accountable or until every last avenue has been exhausted. Alyssa is committed to fighting for justice. And it's been 20 years, and no one has given up. It's been more than 20 years since Jennifer Harris left her friend's house on Mother's Day and vanished into the rural back roads of Fannin County. Her story should have been about the life she was building, but it's a reminder of how quickly a life can be stolen and how difficult it can be to get answers when a system breaks down. Jennifer's murder remains unsolved, despite everything we've learned over the years. But new forensic technology emerges every year. And all it takes is one person to change everything.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

If you know anything about the murder of Jennifer Harris, please come forward. It's never too late to do the right thing. The Fannin County Sheriff's office number is 903-583-2143.

[Ashley]

Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Crime Salad. And as always, stay safe, take care of each other, and we'll see you next time.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Right now on the infamous America Podcast. The disappearances started with a mother and daughter. They were followed by two sisters from Texas, and then three children from the same family. And in between, according to the lore, there were dozens more. During a sensational murder trial, the legend of H.H. holmes grew from sleazy con man to one of America's most notorious and prolific killers. But how much was true? The story of H.H. holmes is happening now on the infamous America podcast. Welcome and enter if you dare.

[Ashley]

Hi, I'm Hallie Kiefer. And I'm Alison Leiby. And together we're the hosts of Ruined, a scary movie podcast, where Hallie tells me the grisly details of a haunting.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

New horror film each week.

[Ashley]

Whether you're a terror hound like me.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

Or a scaredy cat like Allison, we've had so many thrills, chills, and obviously.

[Ashley]

Kills to share with you.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

In every episode, it's the podcast that'll.

[Ashley]

Have you saying, that was so funny. I should not have listened to it.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

At night, with all the lights off, from the greats like the Exorcist and Poltergeist to modern classics such as Hereditary and Get out to the freakiest new releases like A Quiet Place and Terrifier.

[Ashley]

We ruin them all.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

And we'll leave you howling, mostly from laughter sometimes because you're turning into a werewolf.

[Ashley]

Ooh. Listen along as I try and guess the movie's twist, predict who will survive, and answer the hardest question of all.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

What would you do? So please listen to new episodes of Ruined every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ashley]

And whatever you do, we're begging you, please keep it spooky.

[Co-host (possibly Ricky or another Crime Salad co-host)]

If you love those, wait. What moments you'll love. Something you should know. I'm Mike Carruthers, and on my podcast we explore the fascinating ideas hiding in plain sight, like how elevators change the entire world, how gravity affects your health more than you think, or how to instantly become a better conversationalist. Each episode is fast, fun, and full of insight you'll want to share, so give it a try. Search for something you should know. Wherever you get your podcasts.