Truth Behind the Headlines: Natalia Grace

Summary

Crime Salad Podcast Summary

Episode: Truth Behind the Headlines: Natalia Grace
Release Date: April 6, 2025
Host: Ashley and Ricky
Contact: [e-mail]

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Introduction to Natalia Grace's Case

In this compelling episode, hosts Ashley and Ricky delve deep into the intricate and controversial case of Natalia Grace, a Ukrainian orphan whose life has been marred by abuse, manipulation, and public skepticism. The episode seeks to unravel the truth behind the headlines, offering listeners a thorough examination of Natalia's journey from a vulnerable child to a resilient young adult.

Background: Natalia's Adoption and Early Life

Natalia Grace was born on September 4, 2003, in Ukraine. At birth, she was diagnosed with a rare form of dwarfism known as spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita. In 2008, Natalia was adopted by an American couple and brought to the United States to live in New Hampshire. However, the initial adoption did not last, as the couple relinquished their parental rights shortly after citing Natalia's disruptive behavior as the primary reason.

By 2010, Natalia found herself with a new family, the Barnetts—Christine and Michael Barnett—who already had three sons: Jacob, Wesley, and Ethan. The hope for a loving family was short-lived, as Natalia soon faced severe abuse and neglect at the hands of her adoptive mother, Christine Barnett.

Allegations of Abuse and Manipulation

Natalia has made serious allegations against Christine Barnett, claiming physical abuse such as being hit with a belt, having pepper spray sprayed into her eyes, and being given overdoses of prescribed medication intended to harm her. These allegations paint a grim picture of Natalia's life under the Barnetts' care.

Ashley:

"Natalia had to stand strong and speak up for herself many times as she made it through a range of beyond challenging circumstances."
(Timestamp: 05:58)

In response, Christine and Michael Barnett contended that Natalia had lied about her age. Shortly after adoption, they discovered Natalia had pubic hair and had started menstruating, which led them to believe she was older than claimed. They alleged that Natalia was manipulative and posed a danger to the family, including attempts to poison Christine and other violent actions.

Ricky:

"How did she even have access to anything like poison to poison her coffee or, I don't know, overpowering her and pulling her towards an electric fence? It just seems weird."
(Timestamp: 09:54)

Public Perception and Media Influence

Natalia's case garnered significant media attention, which was further amplified by comparisons to the 2009 horror movie The Orphan. This comparison fueled public skepticism, with many questioning whether Natalia was genuinely a child or an adult pretending to be one.

Ashley:

"With our app ampm. Too much good stuff plus tax where applicable."
(Timestamp: 00:14) — (Note: This is part of an advertisement and should be skipped as per instructions.)

As the narrative unfolded, social media platforms like YouTube and TikTok played a pivotal role in shaping public opinion. Many users speculated about Natalia's true age and intentions, leading to a polarized view where some saw her as a victim, while others viewed her as a potential manipulator.

Ricky:

"I believe the parents, there's something sketchy about her... she scammed the family, now she's trying to scam us."
(Timestamp: 04:32)

Conversely, supporters of Natalia pointed out the inconsistencies in the Barnetts' claims and emphasized the importance of believing and supporting the victim.

Ashley:

"I really dislike being known as the girl who was re-aged and lived in her own apartment at 7 years old... That's not who I am. That's just what happened to me."
(Timestamp: 35:40)

Legal Proceedings and Evidence

In 2012, the Barnetts took legal steps to have Natalia declared a legal adult. This decree allowed them to move Natalia into her own apartment in Lafayette, Indiana, while the family relocated to Canada. However, this decision raised numerous red flags given Natalia's purported age.

Ashley:

"According to this story and also her birth certificate, she was born on September 4th, 2003, which would make her about eight years old during this time."
(Timestamp: 10:30)

Subsequent investigations, including DNA tests and consultations with medical professionals, confirmed Natalia's actual age, debunking the Barnetts' assertions. Prosecutors were unable to charge the couple with neglect of a child due to the legal reclassification of Natalia's age.

Ricky:

"It's definitely strange and I don't know a lot about this case, but I think for me, just all the tiktoks that I saw, the narrative was always that she was scamming the parents."
(Timestamp: 04:32)

Impact of Abuse and Behavioral Responses

The episode explores the psychological impact of Natalia's traumatic experiences. Ashley and Ricky discuss how trauma can manifest in behavioral issues, especially in adopted children who have faced multiple disruptions in their lives.

Ashley:

"Adopted children are known to act out in many different ways, including withdrawing, intense tantrums, lying, being defiant, and even lashing out with violence."
(Timestamp: 24:23)

They emphasize the importance of sensitive and supportive parenting in mitigating these behaviors, contrasting it with the hostile environment Natalia reportedly endured with the Barnetts.

Natalia's Path to Recovery and Advocacy

Despite the harrowing experiences, Natalia has shown remarkable resilience. After leaving the Barnett family, she was taken in by Antoine and Cynthia Mans, who provided her with a nurturing environment. In 2023, Natalia was legally adopted by the Mans, who have been instrumental in her healing process.

Natalia (via Ashley):

"I've got to spread my wings."
(Timestamp: 32:14)

Currently, Natalia is focused on her education, aspiring to become a teacher, and building a stable and fulfilling life. She has spoken about overcoming her past and using her experiences to help and inspire others.

Ashley:

"What keeps her motivated, that vision of her future classroom... There's no expectations. There's no you're expected to do this or else just try your best."
(Timestamp: 28:42)

Continued Challenges and Public Scrutiny

While Natalia has made significant strides in her personal life, she continues to face challenges, including accusations against her current guardians, Antoine and Cynthia Mans. Allegations of control and abuse have surfaced, although no formal charges have been filed.

The podcast highlights the lingering impact of media portrayal and public opinion on Natalia's life, questioning the ethics of sensationalizing real-life tragedies for entertainment.

Ashley:

"We should be more careful when approaching the stories of real people who can be affected by such speculation."
(Timestamp: 35:40)

Conclusion: Lessons Learned and Moving Forward

Ashley and Ricky conclude the episode by reflecting on the broader implications of Natalia Grace's case. They emphasize the need for compassionate media coverage and the importance of supporting victims rather than succumbing to sensationalism. The hosts encourage listeners to consider the ethical responsibilities involved in reporting and discussing sensitive true crime stories.

Ricky:

"Was it fair for Natalia to be questioned as extensively as she was? Was it right for so much weight to be given to the Barnett's claims that Natalia was actually an adult?"
(Timestamp: 29:28)

The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the complexities surrounding true crime narratives and the individuals at their center, advocating for empathy and truth over speculation and sensationalism.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ashley (05:58):
  "Natalia had to stand strong and speak up for herself many times as she made it through a range of beyond challenging circumstances."

• Ricky (09:54):
  "How did she even have access to anything like poison to poison her coffee or, I don't know, overpowering her and pulling her towards an electric fence? It just seems weird."

• Natalia (via Ashley) (35:40):
  "I really dislike being known as the girl who was re-aged and lived in her own apartment at 7 years old... That's not who I am. That's just what happened to me."

• Ashley (28:42):
  "What keeps her motivated, that vision of her future classroom... There's no expectations. There's no you're expected to do this or else just try your best."

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Final Thoughts:

Natalia Grace's story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit in the face of unimaginable adversity. Through meticulous investigation and empathetic storytelling, Crime Salad sheds light on the nuances of her experiences, urging listeners to look beyond sensational headlines and seek the truth with compassion and understanding.

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Connect with Crime Salad:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Subscribe: Available on all major podcast platforms
• Support: Visit our Patreon for exclusive content and behind-the-scenes insights

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Stay tuned for next week's episode as Ashley and Ricky continue to explore the stories that need to be told, uncovering the layers of truth behind the headlines.

Transcript

[Ashley]

Mmm.

[Ricky]

Mmm.

[Ashley]

Ooh, whatcha eating?

[Ricky]

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[Ashley]

Ah, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?

[Ricky]

I'm sorry, but no. But you can't split the banana split.

[Ashley]

Not even a little.

[Ricky]

Not even a crumb.

[Ashley]

What if.

[Ricky]

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[Ashley]

With our app ampm.

[Ricky]

Too much good stuff plus tax where applicable.

[Ashley]

Prices and participation may vary. Terms and conditions apply. Unfortunately, it's all too common to hear about child abuse cases where the victim's pain was ignored by those who saw the signs but didn't step in. Or maybe suspicions of abuse were reported to the authorities and dismissed until tragedy forced everyone to pay attention. We've heard way too many stories about children who are left to suffer in horrible living conditions for an unfair, unfathomable length of time. For example, the case we just covered recently about a 32 year old man who set fire to his house to escape imprisonment that had gone on for almost two decades at the hands of his stepmother, Kimberly Sullivan, who allegedly abused, starved and neglected him throughout his whole life. In the cases when families are investigated, leading up to the ultimate turning point, adults accused of these crimes tend to spin countless stories to explain the signs of abuse away. However, I've noticed that usually whenever a case of child abuse does make its way to the public's attention, society tends to respond to the victims with an outpouring of sympathy, empathy, and overwhelming concern. Communities share their heartbreak and outrage over the abuse allowed to go unchecked right next door, people from all over offer their support to the victims unless it's too late to save them. When an abuser goes so far as to end a child's life, vigils are held in the victim's honor, attended by loved ones and complete strangers alike. Excuses and lies told by the perpetrators are scoffed at, dismissed, and flat out rejected by most. Their sob stories may have worked on CPS agents in the past, but from what I've seen, the public reacts much harsher to any any attempted justifications. That's where Natalia Grace's case differs from most other cases of child abuse I've come across. When she shared her story of manipulation, neglect and abuse at the hands of her adoptive parents, Christine and Michael Barnett, the world took notice. Everyone was talking about the case, eager to share every new detail and angle they could think of. But it wasn't long before doubts and suspicion twisted the Conversation as some people started to question if Natalia was tell the truth or if the Barnett family were the real victims in all of this. To give you an idea of what the conversation around Natalia Grace's story has looked like in the past, we looked back at older articles and videos published about the case. Reading the comment section of a YouTube video posted by ABC News five years ago titled Woman at Center of Adoption Scandal speaks out, you can find many comments that share the growing suspicion around Natalia, such as one stating, quote, I believe the parents, there's something sketchy about her. And also another one, they need to go back and interview every family she's been with. With one comment nicely summing out the general impression given by those who doubted her story, writing, quote, she scammed the family, now she's trying to scam us. Among those comments are more encouraging ones left by those who believe Natalia. One comment from a year ago gives insight into the shifting perception of Natalia's story writing, quote, I watched the entire episode and I believe the child, the adoptive father, was a great actor. Even the first son admitted that the mother terrorized the child, even had him pee on her own bed. How sick is that? And the comment continued, those parents are evil and should be in jail. Even if she was 50 years old, she does not have the physical ability to be on her own in a second floor apartment. Would they treat their biological children in that manner? Shame on them.

[Ricky]

It's definitely strange and I don't know a lot about this case, but I think for me, just all the tiktoks that I saw, the narrative was always that she was scamming the parents. I mean, that was always my impression until you started looking into this and telling me things. So like, I'm curious to see what the real story is.

[Ashley]

Yeah, because that was always the narrative. You know, you would see articles about this case, you would see videos where it's like, oh my goodness, Natalia Grace Is this 20 some year old person trying to pretend to be, you know, a young child. It gets interesting.

[Ricky]

I know, because when we first even heard about this case, I remember just a little back and forth that we had where we basically said, like, could you imagine you're adopting someone? And like this is what you get.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And I think even at one time we were thinking about covering the case whenever this first started to become popular in the media. But honestly, I personally can't think of many other cases of alleged child abuse that stir up so much controversy regarding the victim. With some people, I mean, calling Natalia creepy and others speculating that she could be dangerous and a great deal of hatred directed towards her. So it makes you wonder, how does such polarization towards a child happen? How did this even come about?

[Ricky]

Yeah, I mean, because this is exactly the type of thing that you would see on Lifetime. And I don't know how the story ends, but honestly, both versions of the story, no matter how it turns out, it. It's a perfect Lifetime movie.

[Ashley]

So the big question why was Natalia victimized? And not only by her adoptive parents, but also by the court of public opinion? Hey, Crime Scout listeners. So today we are going to dive into the case of Natalia Grace, a Ukrainian orphan who has faced incredible struggles throughout her young life and including being shuffled between families, abused, abandoned and accused of lying about her age. Compared to a horror movie villain, Natalia had to stand strong and speak up for herself many times as she made it through a range of beyond challenging circumstances. And with that being said, we aim to share her story in a fair and respectful way that prioritizes the truth over trying to craft some mysterious character from a child who was scared, vulnerable and alone when she needed an adult to step up and care for her. That being said, we must warn you that this episode does include discussions of child abuse, neglect and abandonment. If any of these topics are sensitive for you, you may want to skip this episode and tune in next week instead. My name's Ashley. And I'm Ricky and this is Crime Salad. So let's see if we can figure out how an abused child became the center of such intense speculation. Natalia Grace was born in Ukraine on September 4, 2003 to a 24 year old mother who relinquished her parental rights because Natalia was born with a rare form of dwarfism called, and I may butcher it, spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita hope for a life spent with a loving family was dangled in front of Natalia in 2008 when she was adopted by an American couple and brought to the United States to live with them in New Hampshire. Sadly, it didn't turn out to be a good fit. The couple relinquished their parental rights soon after adopting Natalia, blaming her disruptive behavior. However, it wasn't long before Natalia was introduced to a new family, the Barnetts, who had three sons already, Jacob, Wesley and Ethan. By 2010, a new chapter of Natalia's life began when Christine and Michael Barnett adopted her, welcoming their daughter into their home and family. Unfortunately, the mood in the house soon shifted into complete hostility towards Natalia. Since leaving the Barnett's career, Natalia has accused Christine of abusing her in many ways, including hitting her with the belt, spraying pepper spray right into her eyes, and giving her three times the recommended dose of a prescribed medication, Intentionally trying to harm her with an overdose.

[Ricky]

Which is a very, very serious allegation, too.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And in response to the allegations of child abuse, Christine and Michael have since claimed that shortly after adopting Natalia, they discovered that she had pubic hair and had already started menstruating, leading them to believe that they'd been lied to about Natalia's age. They accused the young girl of being manipulative and a dangerous adult who wanted to harm their family, Specifically with the intentions of killing Christine. They allege that Natalia has tried to poison Christine's coffee, drag Christine to an electric fence, and put thumbtacks face up on the stairs, among many other violent acts.

[Ricky]

I mean, Natalia is just a young girl, and I know they thought she was older, but how did she even have access to anything like poison to poison her coffee or, I don't know, overpowering her and pulling her towards an electric fence? It just seems weird.

[Ashley]

Yeah, right. In Natalia, she denies that she ever tried to hurt Christine or lied about her age, explaining that Christine coached her into saying that she was 22 years old and that she tried to kill her parents, even though none of this was true.

[Ricky]

Well, how old was she supposed to be at this time?

[Ashley]

We'll talk more about that, actually. But according to this story and also her birth certificate, she was born on September 4th, 2003, which would make her about eight years old during this time.

[Ricky]

Okay, so yeah, eight years old, and I think she's 22.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

Yikes.

[Ashley]

Now, Natalia, she does admit that at some point, she kind of started to believe it, but in reality, it was all lies and manipulation orchestrated by Christine. Natalia didn't know what to do at the time, Feeling powerless against her adoptive mother. Natalia also said that Michael Barnett wasn't directly involved in the physical abuse. However, he also never stepped in to protect his adopted daughter from Christine, as he obligated to do. She remembers Michael being there, watching Christine beat her, and refusing to take her out of the situation. One of the ways he'd excuse his actions, or I guess, inaction, is by claiming to be afraid that Christine would take his sons away from him if he ever did stand up for her. By 2012, the Barnett's took things a step further by getting the Marion county probate court involved. They petitioned the court to legally change Natalia's age from 8 to 22, a request that was ultimately granted with Natalia declared A legal adult, the Barnett's decided to move Natalia into her own apartment in Lafayette, Indiana in 2013. Then the family moved to Canada with their sons, leaving Natalia in Lafayette to take care of herself alone in her own apartment.

[Ricky]

How is that even possible? I mean, based on what information?

[Ashley]

8.

[Ricky]

And now she's 22. And now she's in an apartment by herself. Like, if she's 10 years old, she's now alone. Like, how is. Oh my God, it just blows my mind.

[Ashley]

Yeah, she was just shy of her 10th birthday. And looking back, Natalia explains that she didn't fully understand why she was being left at the apartment by herself at the time. But I mean, she had no choice. She had to listen to her mother.

[Ricky]

I mean, she's 10 years old. Of course she didn't know what to do.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I can't even imagine the fear Natalia must have faced as she tried to navigate life on her own in a house that wasn't accessible for even a person with dwarfism to begin with. And I mean altogether. I mean, she's still a child. The fact that she's still alive today, so well spoken and insightful, is just incredible, especially considering that she lived on her own like this for about a month until a couple Natalia befriended, Antoine and Cynthia Mans, they took her in. They became her new parents, caring for Natalia alongside their 10 other children and integrated her into their family. In 2019, Christine and Michael Barnett finally faced legal repercussions for abusing and abandoning their adopted daughter after law enforcement got involved in Natalia's case. However, since Natalia's age had been legally changed to 22 back in 2012, prosecutors they couldn't charge the couple with neglect of a child. Christine and Michael were instead charged with neglect of a dependent and conspiracy to commit neglect of a dependent. Michael was found not guilty of those charges in 2022, with the charges against Christine being dropped shortly after. The couple is now divorced, with Michael seemingly changing his stance on the case over time. So once news spread about Natalia's case, it quickly caught the public's attention. And it didn't take long for many people to point out the similarities between Christine and Michael's version of events in the plot of the movie the Orphan, a horror movie that was released in 2009. Do you remember that?

[Ricky]

No, I don't actually.

[Ashley]

So it was about a couple who adopts a nine year old girl and they're unaware that she's actually a dangerous adult woman with murderous intentions. There was also an article that was posted by Screen Rant and It was shared by IMDb and they mentioned the connection, stating, quote, strangely, 10 years after the orphan was released in 2009, a similar incident occurred in which an Indiana couple adopted a six year old Ukrainian girl named Natalia Grace, who also had a form of dwarfism and a murderous streak, unquote. Now, of course, that's simply not true. There's been no evidence to even suggest that Natalia has or ever had a murderous streak. But that's just one example of the many ways Natalia's story was twisted to capture attention, creating doubt in the public's minds to ramp up the intrigue and capitalize on the mystery of it all. Natalia's vulnerability as a child subjected to abuse in neglect seemed to have been cast aside by some as she was thrust into this fictional role that painted her as a potentially manipulative, dangerous criminal who had conned her way into the Barnett family's home. Along with her story being covered by countless news outlets, YouTubers, podcasts, and even blogs, several documentaries were also made about Natalia's case. Christine and Michael weren't shy about sharing their side of the story, though multiple interviews with different reporters during this time, Natalia, she tried to fight back, sharing her side of her time with the Barnett's as well. Dr. Phil even had Natalia on for an episode of his show, and he didn't hold back on questioning Natalia's version of events, creating more doubt among some viewers about her age and intentions. And more recently, Hulu released a new crime drama inspired by the case called Good American Family. And throughout this time, detectives were busy trying to find information that would settle the matter once and for all, including Natalia's birth certificate, her medical records, and adoption documents.

[Ricky]

I mean, why weren't those things presented? I mean, I guess what it really comes down to is all the videos I saw on YouTube and TikTok, they all painted the same narrative and I guess it was an exciting narrative that they adopted an older woman. And I think that's what sold it, that's what made it go viral. And it's like, now we're, we're learning more and there's this whole side of bringing it justice. But I mean, to me, that's what drew me into it. I was like, oh my God, this is crazy. So the fact that she's a victim, oh my God, it's just like full circle for me. It's nuts.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. And it makes you wonder, why didn't they look at these things? Why didn't they look at the birth certificate, the medical Records, the adoption documents. Why were those things disregarded?

[Ricky]

I 100% agree. I think ultimately we heard and believed what we wanted to hear and believe.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So during this time, there were actually two detectives from the Indiana State Police Department who went so far as to Visit Ukraine in 2019, where they met with Natalia's birth mother. And they also collected DNA samples that proved that she was Natalia's biological mother. And everything they found further proved that Natalia was born on September 4, 2003, meaning that she was a child when she was adopted by the Barnetts. Tippecanoe county prosecutor Patrick Harrington has confirmed, quote, not one person, one doctor, not a dentist, not a government official contradicts her birth date at all.

[Ricky]

Okay, so with this new information, though, the Burnetts, they should be begging for forgiveness, right? They were wrong.

[Ashley]

Well, you would think, but actually, I don't think they ever did.

[Ricky]

Wow. Wait, so what year was she adopted again?

[Ashley]

2010. Okay, so keep in mind that one fancy horror movie, it came out in 2009, so a year prior. And also, this is the same year that an endocrinologist evaluated Natalia and estimated her age to be between 9 and 11 years old.

[Ricky]

Well, then that should squash that. Okay, so a bit of a side note, but do you think it's possible that the adoptive mom could have seen the movie and just been, like, paranoid out?

[Ashley]

I mean, it's possible because it kind of aligns with the timeline. The movie came out in 2009. She adopted Natalia 2010.

[Ricky]

It's fresh on the brain, and she's.

[Ashley]

Getting, like, all these tests done. So not only the endocrinologist did test, she also had a dentist evaluate her teeth. So a dentist, they came forward after all this, and they claimed that Christine had brought Natalia to his office in 2011 to see if he could determine Natalia's age by looking at her teeth.

[Ricky]

Right.

[Ashley]

And at the time, the dentist recalled that Natalia still had 12 baby teeth and that Christine knew her adopted daughter was around 8 or 9 years old by the end of that visit.

[Ricky]

Right, and the adoptive mom would have known that information, and it should have just been over right there.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Oh, okay. She's a child. Yeah. We don't have to get her an apartment and make her live on her own. And there was even further testing that continued to confirm her age. A blood test done in August of 2023 concluded that Natalia was approximately 22 years old at the time of the testing, which means that she would have been around nine years old when Christine and Michael adopted her. Michael has also changed his story over the years, which could point to the disturbing possibility that the couple wasn't simply wrong about Natalia's age, driven by some sort of strange paranoia. Instead, they might have been straight up lying this whole time, knowing that they were further harming the very child they chose to adopt into their family. Michael has since apologized for not protecting Natalia from Christine's abuse, claiming that he was also manipulated, threatened and controlled by Christine into becoming exactly who she wanted him to be. Now, Natalia, she has forgiven Michael, but she admits that forgiving him wasn't easy. She doesn't view Michael as her father at all, since he didn't protect her the way that a father should have. He cared more about his biological sons than the safety and well being of his adopted daughter. Meanwhile, Christine seems to have stuck to her story about Natalia being the abuser, still insisting that she and Michael loved and cared for their adopted daughter the way parents should. As the years have passed, proof in the form of documentation and test results seemed to have helped squash a lot of the speculation that spread when Natalia's case first came to light. But was that really necessary to see through Christine and Michael's lie? Could any of the Barnett's claims be considered valid arguments? Natalia has since denied most of the claims Christine and Michael used to try to justify leaving her alone in that apartment while they moved to a different country without her. However, let's suppose for a moment that any of the claims Christine and Michael made about Natalia's development and behavior were true. Would that give weight to their suspicion that Natalia was an adult when they adopted her? As far as that one argument the Burnettes had when they noticed that Natalia had pubic hair and had already started her menstrual cycle shortly after they adopted her. I mean, certainly that would have meant that Natalia was younger than most girls when they start their menstrual cycle, as the average age is around 12 years old. But averages don't give the whole picture over time, the average age of puberty has lowered steadily in more recent decades. No one knows exactly why this is the case, but it's not unheard of for girls to get their first period when they're only seven or eight years old, sometimes even younger. This is known as precocious puberty, and though it can be a sign of an underlying medical issue, it doesn't mean that a child is lying about their age. Now, of course, the Barnett's claims that Natalia was a danger to their family, lashed out violently, and even tried to kill them are much scarier than her allegedly going through puberty at a younger than normal age. Natalia has denied these serious allegations, but for a moment, let's consider the possibility that this did happen. Would it be unfathomable for a child to act out in such a way? Could a little girl truly be so violent?

[Ricky]

I mean, unfortunately, the harsh truth is, a lot of times these children who are adopted into a new family or put into the foster care system, they often have experienced trauma. Right? I mean, they've been taken from their biological family, moved into a stranger's house. I mean, they're gonna act up. There's gonna be some. Some baggage, some issues. Right?

[Ashley]

100%. I mean, imagine yourself as a child, but as a really young child, you're taken from your family or you're being moved from different families because you're in the foster care system. How could you not even expect any behavioral problems at all? It's just a lot for a child to go through. A lot of times they're pretty aware that they're just given up by their biological parents or they have to be separated from them. So they're being, like, uprooted from this situation that they were in and then just placed into another situation. Yeah. Behavioral issues naturally are going to happen.

[Ricky]

Right. They don't want to be there either. They want to be with their mom or their dad or whatever life they knew.

[Ashley]

Right. And on top of that, I mean, the negative experiences that a child can run into as they move through the flawed systems that are currently in place to care for these children. Adopted children are known to act out in many different ways, including withdrawing, intense tantrums, lying, being defiant, and even lashing out with violence, among other maladaptive behaviors. But all of that aside, acting out is common among all children. But adoptive children are reported to experience more psychological and behavioral difficulties, likely because of their complicated and often challenging backgrounds.

[Ricky]

But as a foster family or a family that's wanting to adopt, I mean, isn't that something, you know, something you've considered? I'd assume.

[Ashley]

Yeah. But I'm sure you have to go through different programs and training to learn how to deal with these situations.

[Ricky]

I mean, maybe, but when we started looking into fostering, I remember them asking us, like, how many rooms do you have in your house? And they were like, oh, you have three extra bedrooms. Can you take three children?

[Ashley]

Yeah, it was very pushed, actually. But regardless, with that being said, there are ways to help adopted children through these challenges and improve their mental health, which in turn can improve their behavior. Studies have shown that warm Sensitive parenting can sometimes mitigate the effects of a child's past negative experiences, paving the way for a brighter future for the child by socializing positive behavior that will ultimately improve self regulation and social skills that the child can use to build better relationships with others moving forward. On the other hand, hostile parenting characterized by harsh, negative and intrusive interactions can be detrimental, having the complete opposite effect. Jen Ranter Hook, a therapist who works with adoptive and foster families, explains, think about all your interactions with your child as a trust bank. A positive interaction such as play, nurturing, touch is like a deposit. A negative interaction such as correction, punishment is like a withdrawal. It's important to make consistent deposits into your child's trust bank so that you have enough of a balance in the bank to make a withdrawal such as correction or discipline when needed. She reminds frustrated adoptive parents to remember that these difficult behaviors are often the result of trauma rather than a conscious decision on the child's part. It's important to be empathetic and make sure the child feels heard, safe and supported. Coming up with coping strategies, considering sensory issues, reaching out for professional support, and simply carving out enough time to play with your child can greatly improve relationships and behaviors. With that in mind, it seems like even if Natalia did act out against her new family, that type of behavior wouldn't be that abnormal when it compared to the challenges other adoptees and their adoptive parents face. Even if Christine and Michael's allegations are true, which again, Natalia has denied, none of this would prove that Natalia was older than she said she was. Young children are capable of aggression and even violence. They're also capable of making positive changes when given the right support, something the Barnett's failed to prove Natalia with.

[Ricky]

I can't help but to wonder if the way the media told Natalia's story played a big role in the way that so many people were skeptical or even hostile to Natalia when clearly she was the victim. And honestly, I'm kind of guilty of it too, because when I brought this case to you from the very beginning, I was like, holy cow. Like, you have to see this story, we have to tell this story.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I remember if you think about it, in most child abuse cases, when parents try to make excuses or deny what happened, people usually don't buy it. But with Christine and Michael Barnett, their claims got way more attention and way more credibility than you'd normally see in these types of situations.

[Ricky]

Yeah, but I mean, in this situation they actually believed it.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And any abuse claims that Natalia had, even though she actually was a child at the time no one believed her. What strikes me is how the conversation around Natalia focused less on the abuse and neglect she endured and more on whether she deserved it by way of questioning her age.

[Ricky]

Yeah, and if you take out the whole age thing, you have parents who put a 10 year old into an apartment. I mean, that's neglect. Like they thought she was 22. Whatever. They put a 10 year old into an apartment. But so many people believed the story and they read into the narrative and.

[Ashley]

They supported it and the huge narrative became, was she really a child? That's the one question that shifted this entire tone of this story.

[Ricky]

Exactly. And guess what? She was a child.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And I can't help but feel the media's framing helped bury what should have been the real story. On the bright side, Natalia is now a well spoken 21 year old adult who is now better equipped to share her story. Recently, Natalia did an interview for a People cover story where she shared updates about how her life has been since the Barnett's were acquitted. She expressed how encouraging it was, how good it made her feel to know that her story has inspired others. She also explained that she doesn't want her tragic past to define her, stating, I really dislike being known as the girl who was re aged and lived in her own apartment at 7 years old. I don't like being known for the little girl that was helpless and was beat and starved and all of that. I don't because that's not who I am. That's just what happened to me. It's clear that there is so much more to Natalia Grace than the abuse she suffered through as a child. Unfortunately, life still had some challenges in store for Natalia. Even after the legal battle with the Barnett's concluded, she was taken in by Bishop Antoine and Cynthia Mans and welcomed into their big family, a religious family, where Natalia discovered her love of teaching children and what it means to love be loved. The couple legally adopted her in June of 2023 and Natalia has many great things to say about them. During the interview, she still referred to Antoine and Cynthia as her parents. Natalia said that her life was pure hell before she met the Mans, saying they showed her what love truly is. Even before the couple legally adopted her, Natalia says she felt like their child.

[Ricky]

That's awesome.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And despite everything that's happened since the adoption, she still loves Antoine and Cynthia and she believes that they still love her too. Even though there have been some troubling accusations directed at Antoine and Cynthia. Recently, Antoine and Cynthia Manns have been accused of controlling Natalia and forbidding her from contacting outsiders, with several witnesses coming forward with claims that they've seen the couple physically abuse Natalia as well, including whipping her with a belt and slapping her. So far, no charges have been brought against the couple, but Natalia admits that she did leave the family's house abruptly in December of 2023 in a way that gives the impression of some kind of escape attempt. The getaway was all part of the plan created with the help of Natalia's boyfriend Neil, and a couple who had tried but failed to adopt Natalia back in 2009. Nicole and Vince DePaul. Nicole and her daughter drove from their home in New York all the way to Nashville, Tennessee, to pick up Natalia from church early that morning. Natalia snuck away without telling anyone to go stay with the DePaul family. Even if we don't know the full picture of why Natalia decided to escape with the DePauls in this way, after spending 10 years with the man's family, it's clear that leaving wasn't easy for her. Natalia recalls texting her mother, Cynthia, right after she left, worried that the family would assume something terrible had happened to her once they noticed she was gone. Natalia apologized for how she went about leaving and assured her parents that she was safe. Cynthia seemed genuinely sad to hear that Natalia had taken off like that. She telling her adopted daughter, quote, you were supposed to be my forever baby. You're still my baby, but you were supposed to be with me forever. It was an emotional time for Natalia, but she also explained to her mother, I've got to spread my wings. And it seems that's exactly what Natalia has done since then. Now she can look back on her time with the Barnetts, the manns, and the DePaul families and reflect on what she learned from each experience. And she explains that her negative experience with the Barnetts helped inspire her love for children and her desire to protect them, along with making her a more compassionate person who tries to really listen to others and be there for people in the same way that she wished someone had been there for her during that time. Following her time with the Barnett family, Cynthia Mands helped teach her how to be a mother and how to take care of herself and her future family one day. While Antoine's lessons were more to do with knowledge, inspiring, a persistence when studying and a desire to learn and make things happen. Finally, now at the DePauls, Natalia seems to be expanding her horizon as an adult. After being told that she would never be able to drive, she realized she can do anything. She puts her Mind to. And now she dreams of having a car one day, becoming a teacher, getting married, and having children of her own. Eventually. All of her experiences have taught her that she's more capable than she originally believed.

[Ricky]

It definitely sounds like she's really matured, you know, learned a lot from these situations.

[Ashley]

Yeah, but at the same time, she kind of had to.

[Ricky]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Ashley]

Now. Of course, this all doesn't mean that life is exactly easy for Natalia even now, because she's been diagnosed with situational anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, and ptsd. However, she's working with a doctor to find the right medication to help her thrive, while also on a waiting list for a therapist so she can continue to move forward on her journey. She admits having struggles with trusting people and letting her guard down. And it takes her a while for her to let people in, but it's clear to see that she has a lot of love to give. And when she talks about her dreams, her love for kids, and her desire to have her own children one day, there's this infectious enthusiasm, which personally gave me the sense that she has the determination it takes to make those dreams come true. She's already working on getting her ged. Learning to drive. She shares that she loves small, meaningful gestures, but the best gift she could be given is just having someone there with her. While helping her sisters with their schoolwork, as the man's family homeschooled their children, Natalia discovered a love of teaching. She now aspires to be a teacher for children in kindergarten up through second grade. Natalia shares what keeps her motivated, that vision of her future classroom. Saying, quote, in my classroom, you will always feel safe. You will always feel encouraged. You will always feel like you can do anything you put your mind to. There's no expectations. There's no you're expected to do this or else just try your best. I personally think it's incredible and inspiring to see the positivity and warmth Natalia shares, even after she's been through so much and she was given up by multiple families as a child. She was abused, abandoned, and criticized and questioned by the public after sharing her story. And I'm so glad to see that public opinion seems to have largely shifted since the test results that proved Natalia wasn't lying about her age. However, it's sad to think about the scrutiny she had to go through to reach this point and the fact that there are likely still people out there who don't believe her because of how the story was framed. I think there's a lesson to be learned here. Horror movies like the Orphan can be great for a fun scare, interesting to watch or discuss. It's all mostly harmless unless you're prone to nightmares, but maybe we should be more careful when approaching the stories of real people who can be affected by such speculation. Was it fair for Natalia to be questioned as extensively as she was? Was it right for so much weight to be given to the Barnett's claims that Natalia was actually an adult? We would love to hear your opinion on this case and encourage to leave a comment to continue the discussion. Please share today's episode on social media to share this case with others and help our channel grow. As always, we are so grateful for our Crime Salad listeners, especially our Patreon and Apple subscribers. You guys are awesome. Your support means the world to us and it helps play our part in spreading awareness about these important topics. And thank you so much for tuning in. We're so happy to share positive updates on a case that's been in the news for years at this point, and we appreciate the chance to share our perspective on Natalia's story with all of you. Stay safe, take care of yourselves, and we'll catch you next week for another deep dive into the stories that need to be told. Sam.