BONUS: Inside the Mind of Rex Heuermann — with Dr. Joni Johnston

Summary

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Crime Scene – BONUS: Inside the Mind of Rex Heuermann — with Dr. Joni Johnston

Sony Music Entertainment | June 18, 2026
Host: Jonathan Hirsch
Guest: Dr. Joni Johnston, Forensic Psychologist
(Discussion follows Rex Heuermann’s sentencing, focusing on psychological insights, the impact on victims, and the ramifications for criminal justice and society at large.)

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode of Crime Scene delves into the aftermath of Rex Heuermann’s sentencing in the notorious Gilgo Beach serial killings. Host Jonathan Hirsch sits down with Dr. Joni Johnston, a seasoned forensic psychologist, to dissect Heuermann’s psychological profile, the court proceedings, and the significance for victims’ families. The conversation grapples with whether society learns anything new from infamy like Heuermann’s, the meaning and limits of “closure,” and the ethical complexities of studying serial killers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introducing Dr. Joni Johnston and Her Work

[03:19]

• 30+ years as a forensic psychologist and private investigator, specializing in violent offenders and serial killers.
• Focuses on both understanding offenders and amplifying the voices of victims/families.
• Quotation:

  "People who not only hurt others, but hurt them over and over again... the impact on families and communities is huge." — Dr. Joni Johnston [03:24]

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The Importance of Victim Impact Statements

[04:13 – 06:59]

• The day of sentencing is fundamentally about the victims and their families reclaiming some sense of control.
• Dr. Johnston emphasizes the catharsis and empowerment victim impact statements can offer:

  "It's a chance for them to have some sense of control and to make somebody who has taken so much away from them listen directly to the impact his actions have had." — Dr. Joni Johnston [04:40]

Memorable Moment

• Amanda Funderberg’s Statement
  The sister of victim Melissa Barthelemy, Amanda, faced Heuermann in court, insisting he look at her as she recounted his taunting phone calls after Melissa’s murder.

  "You can look at me while I'm talking," she demanded, embodying extraordinary courage. [06:10–06:59] "The courage that would take is hard to even imagine, because this man has been the boogeyman in her life." — Dr. Joni Johnston [07:00]

Analysis

• Dr. Johnston underscores the sadism reflected in Heuermann’s behavior, noting:

  "Sexual sadists... their drug of choice is fear. That's what they feed off of." [07:49]

• Amanda’s statement is reframed as an act of reclamation:

  "Now she's the one who's saying, 'I'm going to tell you how I really feel...We are stronger than you.'" [09:04]

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Rex Heuermann’s Behavior in Court and His “Words”

[09:20 – 12:35]

• Anticipation of whether Heuermann would speak; in the end, he speaks minimally.
• Stated: “There are no words I can say. The words I say have no meaning, and I'm going to leave it there.”
• When pressed if he was sorry, replied simply: “Yes, I am.” [10:23–11:28]

Analysis:

• Dr. Johnston observes ambiguity:

  “I think there was a cryptic and potentially a double message… My words are meaningless. That's a true statement... And maybe they [the words] have no meaning for me." — Dr. Joni Johnston [11:28–12:03]

• The exchange is seen as emblematic of Heuermann’s lack of remorse and emotional detachment.

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FBI Behavioral Analysis Agreement

[15:31–19:14]

• As part of sentencing, Heuermann agrees to interviews with the FBI’s Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU).
• Historical Precedent: FBI/BAU has interviewed serial killers to seek insights that may prevent or solve future crimes.

Questions Raised:

• Can interviewing offenders like Heuermann yield actionable insights?
• What motivates a person like Heuermann to participate? Echoes of potential grandiosity or desire for control, versus the risk of these interviews glorifying the killer.

Dr. Johnston’s View:

"It's almost like making a deal with the devil in a way. We can still get things, even if it costs us some pleasure or gives some pleasure." [21:37]

• Notes that Heuermann may view interviews as a show of cleverness, but also wants to maintain secrecy over his "hidden world." [16:24–19:14]
• Stresses ethical considerations, especially if interviews are publicized or filmed:

  "If they do bring cameras in... it adds a level of artifice and performance to the conversation. It certainly does change it." [22:32]

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Mythology & Ordinariness of Serial Killers

[24:50 – 31:56]

• Discussion of whether society learns anything “new” from cases like Heuermann’s.
• Dr. Johnston argues:

  “He’s not a standout... there's nothing interesting really inherently about serial killers other than they get away with things.” [24:50]

• Dismantles the myth of the "lone, dysfunctional oddball":

  “Most serial killers, they're not walking down the street with a sign on their back... They can function very well in other areas of their life.” [29:30]

• Pushback against glorification:

  “There is nothing mythical about that. It's a coward who has not dealt with his issues, who has these sexual fantasies that eventually morphed into behaviors.” [31:16]

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The Challenge of Prison for a Serial Killer

[34:13 – 36:59]

• The panel speculates about Heuermann’s future in prison and his capacity to grasp what lies ahead.
• Dr. Johnston brings personal experience from working in maximum security prisons, underscoring the grinding loss of autonomy and the potential psychological toll.

"Rex Heuermann strikes me as somebody who's very controlling... I don't think he has any idea emotionally what life is going to be like for him going forward." — Dr. Joni Johnston [36:13–36:59]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the purpose of impact statements:

  "These families... have had so little control over everything... a victim impact statement is for the victims." — Dr. Joni Johnston [04:35]

• On sadism and control in serial killers:

  "Their drug of choice is fear... That control, the domination, and the reaction they get from the victim." — Dr. Joni Johnston [07:49]

• On interviewing serial killers for research:

  "It's almost like making a deal with the devil in a way... Will he be honest? Time will tell." — Dr. Joni Johnston [18:10]

• On mythologizing serial killers:

  "There's nothing unique about Rex Heuermann. It just... underlines that... most serial killers... can function very well in other areas of their life." — Dr. Joni Johnston [30:03]

• Judge’s final words to Heuermann:

  "You're a disgusting and small man, if you're a man at all. Now get him out of here." — Judge (quoted by Jonathan Hirsch) [34:13]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:19] — Dr. Joni Johnston introduces her expertise and approach
• [04:13] — The meaning of the victims’ day in court
• [06:10] — Amanda Funderberg confronts Heuermann in court
• [07:46] — Heuermann’s sadism and "feeding off" fear
• [09:20] — Discussion on whether Heuermann would speak at sentencing
• [11:28] — Analysis of Heuermann’s cryptic courtroom remarks
• [15:31] — FBI/BAU interviews and their purpose
• [19:15] — John Douglas’ involvement and the ethics of these interviews
• [24:50] — Summing up Heuermann’s ordinariness, prison adaptation
• [29:30] — Demystifying the serial killer archetype
• [31:16] — Dismantling myth: "It's a coward who has not dealt with his issues..."
• [34:13] — Judge’s pointed condemnation
• [36:13] — The reality of a controlling person facing life in prison

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Closing Reflections

• Both guest and host stress the significance and empowerment of victims’ voices at sentencing.
• The episode pushes back forcefully against the mythologizing of serial killers like Heuermann.
• The utility and ethics of engaging, studying, or platforming figures like Heuermann are left open, with Dr. Johnston emphasizing the need to focus efforts on prevention and victim support above all.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a deep-dive into the psychological, social, and ethical dimensions of the Gilgo Beach case and the sentencing of Rex Heuermann.

Transcript

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[Host (Jonathan)]

Welcome to CR, the show where we tell the stories behind the world's most unforgettable crimes. And this week on the show we have a very special bonus episode featuring forensic psychologist Dr. Joni Johnston. She's here with us right after the Rex Herman sentencing. Thank you all for joining us from Sony Podcast and the binge you're listening to and watching Crime Scene Live. We are going to be releasing a very special episode on the Gilgo beach case tomorrow. But now that the sentencing hearing has transpired, we thought we would jump on here live with you all and talk with Joni about everything that we've seen today and heard. For those of you who are just finding out about our channel, Crime Scene is a part of the Binge, which is our true crime network of limited series. True crime series. We release one one series a month. You can go to getthebinge.com to learn more. Joanie, thank you so much for joining us today on Crime scene.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

It's my pleasure.

[Host (Jonathan)]

It has been quite dramatic day, but I wanted to take us back a minute. Two months ago, a man stood in a courtroom in Long island and was asked one by one if he strangled and murdered eight women.

[Ad/Promo Voice]

Women.

[Host (Jonathan)]

And he said yes to that question. Just yes. No quavering in his voice, no additional words. He seemed emotionless in that moment or without remorse. Many people watched that footage of Rex Herman, the Long island serial killer, the Gilgo beach killer, and saw somebody who appeared to almost enjoy the proceedings of what he was experiencing there. You know, I saw the smirk on his face and it was chilling. Today in court, that same man was brought before the families of the victims of his crimes and made to bear witness to their their experience, their pain and the impact of his crimes. And then of course, he was sentenced, which in a way sort of brings this case to a close, but doesn't. There's a lot of questions that still remain, ones that I felt like we could have a really substantive conversation with in the minutes since that sentencing hearing has transpired. But before we get Started. I would love for you to tell us a little bit about you and the work that you do and. And also, you know, the. How that relates to this particular case.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I'm a forensic psychologist, as you mentioned already, and also a private investigator, and I've been working with violent offenders for a little over 30 years now. I wrote a book about serial killers, so that's an area of particular interest to me. People who not only hurt others, but hurt them over and over again. Because I think that even though that's a very small number, the impact on families and communities is huge. And so I've been following this case for quite a while. And so when Rex Heuren was arrested, I was particularly interested in, you know, trying to understand him, understand the crimes, support the victims, because as we all know, how easy it is for them to get lost.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Because they aren't here anymore to have their voice, and so their families carry that for them. So I've just been evolved in terms of as a researcher and as somebody who's tried to look at him and look at other serial killers, I've either interviewed or researched and kind of figure out what we might expect going forward.

[Host (Jonathan)]

I'm glad you mentioned that point about the victims. And I think it can get lost in a day like today, that this is their day and the families, the victims of the families, their day, to present to the court, to the world, and to the convicted the impact of these crimes on their lives.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Absolutely. I mean, these families not only have had this pain that they've carried for so many years and so many questions unanswered, but they've had so little control over everything. And I think most of us believe in my field that a victim impact day or statement is for. It is for the victims because it's a chance for them to have some sense of control and to make somebody who has taken so much away from them listen directly to the impact his actions have had on them. And I think that is powerful. I'm sure Rex Herman was not looking forward to today.

[Host (Jonathan)]

You don't think he was looking forward to today?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I don't. I don't think he was looking forward to today because this is an arena where he doesn't have control. He has to sit there. He might not want to sit there, but, you know, what can he say? Basically?

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

He can say, yeah, this happened. He can say nothing. He can apologize. Who's going to believe him? Nobody. So he's not in control of how anybody feels and what they think about him.

[Host (Jonathan)]

I Want to get into all of that with you because there's some really interesting territory there. But I really like something that you just said about the victims being able to listen, because, of course, the footage of what happened in the courtroom has yet to be released. I'm sure over the course of the next day or two, we will start to see more of this from accounts within the courtroom by reporters and news crews that were there. It was a very powerful day. Of course, Rex himself seemed to remain reactionless, motionless during the proceedings. He was staring directly ahead of him, not making eye contact. But at one point, an individual who I was very curious to hear if she would make a victim impact statement and what that would be. Amanda Funderberg, who was the sister of Melissa Barthelemy, one of Rex Herman's victims, who was later taunted by Rex after he had murdered her sister, did provide a victim impact statement. And at one point, she confronts him directly in the courtroom, saying, you can look at me while I'm talking, basically demanding that he bear witness and be present to her statements while in the courtroom.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I mean, the courage that would take is hard to even imagine, because this man has been the boogeyman in her life. I mean, he's taken away her big sister. And not only that. I mean, as you pointed out, he called to tell her in detail she was a teenager. To call somebody up that you've murdered their sister, and then to take delight in taunting a family member is. It's just. It's hard to even wrap your head around in terms of how sadistic that

[Host (Jonathan)]

is and explain to us a little bit about what is the psychology in that moment of somebody who would delight or in some way derive pleasure from tormenting this person, this victim.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

One of the things that the research has shown us over and over again is that sexual sadist, and I do believe that Reichsfurman is one. Really, their drug of choice is fear. And they. That's what they feed off of.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

That control the domination and the reaction that they get from the victim initially. And I think that was. This is just an extension of that. So this is another way for him to create pain and create fear again.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

It probably helped him relive the initial murder of Amanda's sister. And now he's able to then create a similar reaction, at least in terms of that, you know, bringing up that pain and that fear that she now experiences when she hears her sister's murder on the phone, taunting her.

[Host (Jonathan)]

So what do you make of her confronting him in this way?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Way in the court, I think that was a way for Amanda to take back ownership of control, as I said a minute ago, but also her emotions, you know, now she's the one who's saying, I'm going to tell you how I really feel about you, about what you've done to my sister, about the impact you've had on our lives, about how we've all banded together. You know, we are stronger than you.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

So I think it was just such an empowering moment and healing moment for her to be able to say those things and to be able to look at somebody and say, you, you know, you look at me. You look at me because I have something to say to you. You said things to me. Let me say this to you.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right? Here's my chance. And she followed it up by saying, I. I hope you take a spot in hell. So. So one of the big questions we had before the sentencing, myself and my editor and many of us, was whether or not Rex Heuermann was going to speak at the sentencing hearing today. His lawyer suggested that he would, though did not disclose to what extent. Recently on crime scene, we covered the Corey Richards sentencing hearing, which in many ways played out in precisely the opposite way, where you have the convicted spending 45 minutes in a courtroom detailing their entire worldview. But here today, we. I, I personally believed that he was going to speak. My editor, Catherine St. Louis, our editor at the bench, did not think that he was going to speak. And I do. I, I will say, in some ways,

[Ad/Promo Voice]

he both did and he didn't.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah.

[Host (Jonathan)]

You know, so maybe we were both right, Catherine. But what he did say was notable, and it sticks with me. And immediately when I, When I read his statements to, you know, to the court, to the justice, I thought of you and our conversation today because I was just having a hard time wrapping my head around what all. What it all meant. He was asked by the judge whether or not he had anything to say for his crimes, which included the murders that were detailed in that moment. And he said, there are, quote, there are no words I can say. The words I say have no meaning, and I'm going to leave it there. So short, cryptic. The judge pressed him at that moment and asked if he was sorry, and Heuermann responded, yes, I am. And that was it. So what do you make. What do you make of that?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I think it's interesting because I think there was a cryptic and potentially a double message of what he said there. Meaning?

[Host (Jonathan)]

I wondered.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah, yeah, you know, meaning my words are meaningless. I'm responsible for my actions. That's a true statement. There's nothing he can say at this point that would take away anything, that would excuse anything.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

That was going to make anybody feel better. I think he was saying, I'm not going to play this game in terms of, you know, I'm not going to pretend like I feel ways that I don't feel. So this kind of has a meaning. I think probably meant two things. One is it's not going to mean anything to the victims because they, they know what I've done and maybe they have no meaning for me.

[Ad/Promo Voice]

And it did made me wonder to

[Host (Jonathan)]

say in that moment that my words have no meaning.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah.

[Host (Jonathan)]

After hearing the words of so many victims implies in a way that their words too, in this context, in the context of courtroom, don't have meaning. That's how I sort of imagine some people might feel when they hear that.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Possibly, I mean, possibly. I mean, I think they, you know, do they have meaning for him? We don't know. Do they have an impact, an emotional impact on him? I doubt it.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right. So one of the things I think keeps this story in the public consciousness today and into the future is the agreement that was struck as part of his plea.

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[Host (Jonathan)]

Today with the behavioral analysis unit of the FBI to participate in interviews with the FBI following the, you know, the, the proceedings, his, his plea and, and, and the sentencing. I guess first of all, what do you make of that agreement? And maybe we can get into a little bit what, what we can expect. Certainly since that news has come down, there's also been some reports of what's been happening leading up to the sentencing inside the Suffolk county prison where he's being, you know, was being detained in a segregated cell. But yeah, I mean, to start, what do you, what do you make of the, of that agreement?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Well, there certainly is a precedent in terms of interviewing serial killers by the FBI's BAU unit because I think there is some hope and belief that information that you gather from people who've committed these acts can help stop future ones, you know, can help capture to that extent. I think that's a valid endeavor. You know, can we then talk to this person? Can we, you know, ask all the questions about access to victims, about victimology? Why did you choose this particular person? Why did you not choose this particular person? How did you make this person feel at ease? You know, how, you know, what was it like fantasizing and not acting? What made you decide to act? How did you go from planning to implementation? There's a million different questions that may help stop somebody in the future. Certainly it's worthwhile trying to solve other cases. He may have be responsible for their families out there waiting. As a psychologist, I'm also saying, okay, my thoughts are, yes, we definitely want to look at how can you, Rex Heuerman, help us stop other serial killers or maybe solve other serial killer cases? Also, how can we stop other trouble children from turning into you, you know, from turning into a serial killer? So I think there are clues oftentimes in people's backgrounds and looking at, you know, why didn't you go down a different path? What prevented you from getting help? At what point did you start fantasizing about hurting somebody? And who did you think fantasize about hurting? And what was that? What were you thinking that was going to help you? With what purpose was that serving for you? Looking for intervention spaces along the way. So I think there's a lot of good arguments for interviewing somebody like Rex Heuerman. Will he be honest? Time will tell. I think personally that he's got some competing values that are going to be interesting to see how they play themselves out. I do think that he is a very competitive person. I think he's done a lot of studying. I think he might see this as a contest of wits or smarts. And so I think there'll be a part of him that will be interested in kind of showing perhaps some of his peers as he sees them, how he did things and how he evaded capture and how organized he was and all that. At the same time, I do think that this hidden world that he had is very precious to him and he's very protective of it. And so that's the other part of it is, okay, how much is he going to be willing to share the innermost parts of himself, the things that he hid for so long from everybody else? So it will be interesting to see how he resolves these two things. We have to be careful not to glorify him. That's. I think that's a question and concern a lot of people have, and it's a valid one as well.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Yeah, no, and that's helpful context there, because you do wonder, you know, I mean, I think John Douglas, the, you know, the. The author of Mind Hunter and. And one of the founding voices in this kind of research, I was recently spoke at. crimecon, and I was. I was there, we had a show that was up for an award. One of our binge titles was up for an award. And so I was in attendance there and was interesting because he spoke a little bit about the conversations Sort of happening behind the scenes to the extent to which he was aware of them around these interviews. And he has spoken with Rex, and one of the things that he mentioned, and it was just a spot. Just a brief conversation about it at. During the. During the conference, was that he had expressed some degree of curiosity that. About his own behavior. At least this is what Rex Herman was saying, communicating to the. To the FBI, to the BA or specifically to John Douglas. It's not clear where the communication was sort of being centered, but that he had. He expressed some curiosity. Curiosity about his own condition and that perhaps these interviews would clarify some of that for him or help to make sense of it. And I hear that, and I think, is this the reason we should be doing this? Right. Do we. Should we be exploring the curiosity of a psychopathic killer? What benefit does it. What. What benefit does society derive to give him that opportunity? Because he may enjoy the process of communicating to these people. And as you said, like, he sees them more as his peers.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah.

[Host (Jonathan)]

And I wonder if you can speak a little bit to the dynamic of somebody like him, the psychology of somebody like Rex Herman entering into these conversations. What is he getting out of it beyond what the FBI is going to likely want to make sense of?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Well, depending upon what they ask him and what he's asked to provide, it certainly provides an arena for him to kind of show off in terms of how clever he was and his planning document, which they already have. And he can go through that. He can relive some of the things to some extent by doing that. I mean, some of the things, it's. It's. It's almost like making a deal with the devil in a way. I mean, we can still get things, even if it costs us some pleasure or give some pleasure. And there's got to be that balancing act, I think, you know, when you think about potentially like, you know, camera being in the room or those kinds of things, that's a whole nother question, because that's going to change the interview. In addition to. It may have other unintended consequences as

[Host (Jonathan)]

well, which there are unconfirmed.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Okay. Reports, which I think is a whole nother ethical thing to consider. It needs to be thought out very carefully. That's just my own personal opinion. You know, if.

[Host (Jonathan)]

If they do bring cameras in, if

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

they do bring cameras in there, because

[Host (Jonathan)]

it adds a level of artifice and performance to the conversation, then it certainly does change it.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

It influences it. It's like having another person in the room that you're always conscious is Listening in. I think the other part that you brought up that was kind of interesting is if this is somebody who is saying, I want to understand myself better, or I'm not sure, you know, there's therapy for that. Right, Right. You can get therapy in prison. You can get all kinds of treatment in prison if you need it.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I'm not sure that that would be a reason that the FBI BAU unit would be interested in helping him figure out.

[Host (Jonathan)]

I agree.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Unless it's going to help him, you know, them somehow against all the case, or help them catch other serial killers. And I would hope if I was in that situation, I could maintain those boundaries in terms of we're not here to help you figure out your life. Hey, get help if you want to figure out your life and the things that you did. That's your opportunity, cousin. But that's not what we're spending our resources on. We're spending our resources on two things. Trying to solve cold cases, trying to catch other killers, and trying to, again, identify kids who may be where you were at some age, and we can steer them in a different direction.

[Host (Jonathan)]

So you've been following this case for a long time. It is, in many ways beyond the conversations we were just having around these BAU interviews closed now. This individual will now spend the rest of their life in prison and will no longer have a public forum to discuss, litigate, or in any way express themselves publicly in a courtroom setting, hopefully. What do you make now what. What's going on in your mind, having covered this so many years about this case? Because I have to imagine you're beginning to reflect on sort of the sum total of the Rex Herman case and our understanding of people like him. How has it changed? What do you make of this case now that it's come to a close?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

There's so many ways to look at it. I mean, on the one hand, you look at some of the things he did and some of the pathology that seems to be there and some of the psychopathy that seems to be there. He's not a standout. I mean, he is in terms of. He'd gotten away with things for so long, and he was an architect, and he was very detail oriented, and he applied those skills to his serial killing. So there's some interesting parts in those respects, but he's not. There's nothing interesting really inherently about serial killers other than they get away with things. I think what's interesting to me, it'll be interesting to see is how prison affects him over time. You know, Is he going to be the same person 20 years from now? Because having worked in a maximum security prison, you know, one of the things that guys and I worked mainly with men, although some women as well, will say that the first year is the hardest. So it's hard to predict in that first year. There's a denial that goes on oftentimes and then there's a depression that often sets in when people kind of realize, you know, this is it.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Some people adjust and do better as the years go on and find some purpose, whether it's helping other inmates, coaching them, you know, and some at some point decide to check out. So I think that's a little bit of a wild card.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

And I think that when I'm saying that, because one of the questions I get oftentimes is is he going to speak out or is he going to be attention seeking down the road, find ways to keep himself relevant? And I don't, I think, I don't think we can answer that question right now.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right. And do you feel like we have learned from this case anything that has been additive to the type of study so far of this kind of psych?

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[Host (Jonathan)]

psychopathy. Through the Rex Herman case have we learned or added to our understanding of people like him?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I think we have hopefully seen, you know, not only the vulnerability of. Of victims in this situation, which is nothing new. That's nothing that we've learned new. We've seen some vulnerabilities in the criminal justice system and the way the investigation, I think, proceeded and how that can really impact an investigation. Now, Rex Heuermann himself, you know, I think we've seen and yes and no, because I think we've had this, you know, years ago, we had this idea of serial killers as being these loners who are dysfunctional and they work menial jobs and they kind of stood out and they. Well, I mean, I think we've known for a while now that's not true, that you can have individuals who are functioning very well in other areas of their life. So if anything, that underlined that. Right. And underscored that. So. And I think the other thing is people make mistakes. I mean, we all know that Rex Hurman could have been caught sooner. I mean, there was a green avalanche that was missed or, you know, there were things that were missed earlier. So there's nothing unique about Rex Huhman. It just, I think underlying some of the things in terms of being organized, in terms of investigation and also realizing that, no, most serial killers, they're not walking down the street with a sign on their back or that we could recognize them because they're so odd.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Right. And I think it's an important point to mention, and I'm glad that you reiterated that, that there is nothing exceptional about this person, either as a serial killer or as an individual that we have to mythologize or lionize or in some way make bigger than he actually is. There were protesters outside of the courthouse today with signs saying, you know, sign something to the effect of stop mythologizing men who kill sex workers.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I mean, what is that? What myth could there be? What. What is. Yeah, what is worthy of mythologizing? This is somebody. You know, one of the things I've always said is, I've never met a serial killer. I've never studied a serial killer who. Who kind of went into this thinking, I'm going to level the playing field here. I'm going to make sure that we have equal odds and see who wins? No, it's the opposite of that. It's, let me pick somebody who weighs half of what I do, who's, you know, much smaller than I am, who's not as physically strong, who I can fool and trick, who I can set up in a way that they can't escape. I mean, what is remotely noble or utilitarian about that?

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Or mind blowing or something that you want to put on a pedestal. It's a coward who has not dealt with his issues, who has these sexual fantasies that eventually morphed into behaviors. You know, at one point. I don't think anybody's born a serial killer at one point because this person have been channeled into a different way. Could his pain have been healed? Could his bullying have been dealt with? Could his childhood have been healed or at least gone in a different direction? Yes. And I'm always interested in what could we have done? What can we do in the future? But in terms of how he turned out as an adult, there's nothing mythical about that.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm so grateful for you taking the time to talk with us about all of this today. I should say for those who are watching along and if you have questions, please enter them into the comments. But you can join us in conversation now and also you can listen back to this on our YouTube channel and then also as a podcast as part of the Crime Scene podcast. We're going to be releasing a full episode on this case tomorrow, so you can just go to getthebinge.com you can find it. It'll be in the links as well. Any other thoughts that you wanted to share for now and maybe if we have some questions, we'll try to open that up.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

No, I think I just want to underscore something you said several times which I think is just so important, and that is how important today was for the victims to have a chance to really express their feelings and for them to gain a sense of control over where things go from here. And the fact that he was not in control of the situation and was forced to listen to the consequences of his actions.

[Host (Jonathan)]

And to that point, you know, after the judge asked him if he had any remorse, he told him to get out now, get out of here is, I think, was the quote of the day.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Is it nice that the judge was able to express, I'm sure, the feelings everybody in that courtroom had at that point?

[Host (Jonathan)]

It's so interesting I was reflecting on that because like I said, we had covered the, the Corey Richins case and that Sentencing really did have carry some weight here in the sense that the outcome of the judge's decision impacted this person's future in a very, very meaningful way. Whereas here, I think it was a foregone conclusion what the sentencing would look like. And the judge in that case spent a considerable amount of time laying out the groundwork for his decision. I don't think there was any question here what was going to be done. So if I'm looking back, the quote from the judge was, quote, you're a disgusting and small man, if you're a man at all. Now get him out of here. Yeah. So.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

And I'll tell you, as somebody who's worked in a. In a prison, I don't envy him in terms of he's got a tough life ahead of him, and I don't think he has any idea what he's headed toward.

[Host (Jonathan)]

So maybe that's an interesting point to make. In the sort of reporting leading up to the sentencing hearing, there was some. Some information that was coming through about what his life was like in the Suffolk County Prison awaiting the sentencing hearing, which included details about what he was doing with his time. He was reading pulpy murder novels. He was corresponding with. He was, I think, declining most requests to correspond. But he did receive letters from the Happy Face Killer, Keith Jesperson, from what we can gather, maybe offering some kind of guidance about what the life. What his life ahead looked like. Like. Do you imagine Heerman to be sort of sanguine about what awaits him? Does he possess the ability to understand what he's about to experience? I was speaking with a reporter who actually is there at the courthouse today, who we. We featured in tomorrow's episode, Mary Shell, who wrote an exceptional article about her experience of being an employee of Rex many, many years ago, 20 years ago when she was a kid working in an architecture firm. We were discussing this the other day that, you know, perhaps he doesn't necessarily see this as a sentence in the way that you or I might, but that maybe it's like hopping from one fishbowl to the next.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

You know, there's so many different ways of knowing. Right, Jonathan? It's like there's this knowing.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

And there's this knowing.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

So he might have some idea up here or at least some thoughts of what it's going to be like. But I did, too, before I went to organize in a prison, because I'd been in them all the time. I was doing evaluations. It wasn't like I'd never been inside one but when I got inside, when I was working, and of course I'm an employee, I'm not somebody who's in there, it was so different. And there were so many parts of it, just the monotony of it, the grind of it, the fact that every single thing in your life is controlled. There is no, almost no chance to make any decision. Rex Heuermann strikes me as somebody who's very controlling and very somebody who likes to be in control. So, no, I don't think he has any idea emotionally what life is going to be like for him going forward.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Yeah. Well, may he spend the rest of his life figuring that out.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah.

[Host (Jonathan)]

Thank you again so much for joining us on the show today. Thank you to everybody for watching and listening at home. And you can hear the whole episode of Crime Scene tomorrow just go to get the binge.com or join us here on the YouTube channel to watch or listen to the show. Thank you.

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