Gilgo Beach Killer

Summary

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Crime Scene Podcast – "Gilgo Beach Killer"

Podcast: Crime Scene (Sony Music Entertainment)
Episode: Gilgo Beach Killer
Hosts: Jonathan Hirsch & Cooper Maul
Date: June 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Crime Scene revisits the long-unfolding mystery of the Gilgo Beach murders and the chilling capture and confession of Rex Heuermann, a Long Island architect who led a double life as a serial killer. Hosts Jonathan Hirsch and Cooper Maul walk listeners through the investigation, the unique plea deal involving the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, and the psychological profile behind Heuermann’s crimes. Drawing on expert interviews and first-hand accounts, the episode scrutinizes the gaps in the justice system, the killer’s methods, and the aftershocks felt by those close to him.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Rex Heuermann? – The Mask of Sanity

[03:11–10:00]

• Background: A married father and respected architect, Heuermann maintained an unremarkable public image while orchestrating a quarter-century-long murder spree.

• Victims & Modus Operandi: Heuermann abducted, strangled, dismembered, and disposed of at least eight women’s bodies along Ocean Parkway, targeting sex workers he judged unlikely to be missed.

• Meticulous Planning: He maintained a chillingly detailed “planning document”—an 87-step manual that treated murder like a building project, including sections on preparation, victim selection, avoiding detection, and post-event cleanup.

• Use of ‘Mindhunter’: Heuermann annotated his copy of John Douglas’s Mindhunter, using FBI profiling insights to evade detection. He highlighted sections on disorganized offenders as reminders for himself to avoid similar mistakes.

  "He treated each murder like a construction project, with detailed plans before, during, and after the event." – Jonathan Hirsch [04:35]

2. The Psychology of the Killings

[10:43–14:24]

• Planning Document Details: The manual included tactical steps: removing DNA, tire changes, story creation, and reminders about alertness—“Get sleep before hunt.”

• FBI Analysis Interest: The FBI’s Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU) will interview Heuermann as part of the plea.

• Sadist Versus Narcissist: Forensic psychologist Joni Johnston suggests Heuermann’s pathology aligns more with sadism—pleasure from victims’ suffering—rather than narcissism, explaining why a public trial did not appeal to him.

• Victim Taunting: Heuermann tormented families post-mortem, including making harrowing phone calls to a victim’s teenage sister.

  "A narcissist wants to be seen. A sadist wants to see you suffer." – Joni Johnston (quoted by Cooper Maul) [12:31]

3. The Double Life & Those Who “Knew” Rex

[17:25–29:22]

• Early Life: Heuermann was bullied, lost his father young, and developed a close bond with his controlling mother.

• Public Persona: To family, friends, employees, and even his best friend (architect David Jimenez), Heuermann appeared awkward, reserved, but loyal—never violent.

• Red Flags Missed: Oddities—an exclusive “gun room,” strange workplace behavior—made acquaintances uneasy but never rose to actionable suspicion.

• First-Hand Accounts:

  • Mary Shell (Former Employee): Recounts how he enjoyed shocking people, sending hunting photos, and made “mirages” of normalcy.
  • Asa Ellerup (Wife): In denial post-arrest, later reflects with disbelief that “he must really have been like Superman for us to have not noticed anything ever.” – Victoria (His Daughter) [28:02]

  "I was so shocked. Like, I didn't want anyone touching me...because you've been interacting with a mirage for, for God knows how long." – Mary Shell [26:33]

4. The Break in the Case – How Heuermann Was Caught

[34:59–40:39]

• Cold Case Reopened: Former DA’s corruption stalled the case for years until Ray Tierney took over as Suffolk County DA and revived the investigation.

• Key Evidence:

  • A tip from 2010 described an “ogre” in a Chevy Avalanche.
  • Vehicle database searches narrowed suspects by location and vehicle.
  • Surveillance and digital forensics tracked Heuermann’s burner phones and obsession with the case.
  • DNA Breakthrough: Plainclothes officers collected DNA from Heuermann’s discarded pizza crust, matching a hair found on a victim.

• Courtroom Scene: In April, Heuermann pleaded guilty to seven murders and admitted an eighth, appearing emotionless.

  “He thought that by killing them, he could silence them forever and get away with murder. But he was wrong. Because it was these victims, these women, who refused to stay silent.” – DA Ray Tierney [39:30]

5. The Aftermath & Ethical Questions

[41:14–43:45]

• Focus on Victims: Families speak out, centering the stories of lost women over the killer himself.

• Concerns Over Mythologizing: Both hosts and Mary Shell consider whether the plea deal, which gives the BAU access to Heuermann, rewards his ego or produces useful profiling insights.

• Pro Social Killers: FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole describes Heuermann as a “pro-social killer”—someone whose outward normalcy enables a longer undetected streak.

  "The science we develop to understand men like him is the science he used to evade us." – Jonathan Hirsch [30:47]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Heuermann’s Planning:

  "Get sleep before hunt. Too tired creates problems." – Details from planning document [07:41]

• On the Double Life:

  "You cannot put yourself in his shoes because we are not like him. The reason a serial killer can be a serial killer is because they're good at putting up some sort of showing up act." – Mary Shell [27:13]

• Victims’ Family’s Voice:

  “Today is not about the person responsible. Today is about the women’s lives who were stolen, about their voices, their future, and their families. 19 years I lived in the space between heartbreak and hope… Maureen was never forgotten, not for a single moment.” – Missy Can (sister of Maureen Brainard Barnes) [40:39]

• On Justice & Curiosity:

  "Are we entering into an agreement with this individual to gain information or to satisfy his curiosity? Because if it is in any way, shape or form about satisfying his curiosity, I don't think this person deserves the satisfaction..." – Jonathan Hirsch [29:58]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Heuermann’s Court Confession: [03:11–10:00]
• The Planning Document and FBI Interest: [05:00–10:43]
• Sadist versus Narcissist Analysis: [11:12–14:24]
• Family, Friends, and Mask of Sanity: [17:57–29:22]
• Breakthrough in the Case & DNA Evidence: [34:59–40:39]
• Family Impact, Mythologizing, and Victims’ Legacy: [41:14–43:45]

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Tone & Style

The tone is methodical, investigative, and empathetic—balancing forensic detail with emotional resonance. Both hosts bring a reflective analytical approach, frequently incorporating expert opinions, direct testimony, and survivor perspectives, keeping the victims at the story’s center even amid the fascination with the killer’s methodology.

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Closing Reflections

The episode closes by raising complicated moral and ethical questions: What does society gain from studying killers like Heuermann? Does the BAU’s involvement serve justice or feed the ego of a sadistic mind? The hosts urge listeners to reflect and look ahead to the special follow-up interview with forensic psychologist Joni Johnston for further insights into the sentencing and psychological aftermath.

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Transcript

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The 2026 FIFA World cup meal at McDonald's is underway with one of nine legendary cups in the lineup. Christian Pulisic, David Beckham, Lamine Yamal, Ronaldinho, Thierry Henry, Son, Hyung Min, Alphonso Davies, Santi Jimenez. And between the posts, it's Grimace. Get one of nine collectible cups with a FIFA World cup meal at participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last. All rights reserved. 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026. Odds are you've heard the name Rex Heuermann. A married father and an architect, a psychopathic killer who led a murderous double life. And despite countless books, TV shows and podcasts, so many questions still remain. This was brought into sharp relief when Rex Heuermann walked into Suffolk County Courthouse for a hearing in April to plead guilty to strangling and dismembering several women. As a condition of that plea, he agreed to be interviewed by the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. In essence, to be mindhuntered. You understand that by pleading guilty to a charge that is the same as you had gone to trial and been found guilty of that charge? Yes, you, Honor. You understand that by pleading guilty or waiving a number of very important rights.

[Cooper Maul]

Yes, you, Honor.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There is nothing more chilling than the slight smile that he carried on his face as he exited that courtroom. Welcome to Crime Scene, the show where we tell the stories behind the world's most unforgettable crimes. This week, the story of Rex Heuermann. So what do we already know about the murders that he planned, how he hid, and what happened happens when the FBI finally sits down across from a killer who's been studying them his whole life? From Sony podcasts and the Binge, this is the story of the Gilgo beach killer. Hey, all. Welcome to Crime Scene. My name is Jonathan Hirsch, and each week, over three acts, we dive into the most shocking and complex true crime stories of our era. And each week, I'm joined by my friend and fellow documentarian, Cooper Maul. Hi, Cooper.

[Cooper Maul]

Hey, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Don't forget, this show is a part of the Binge, the true crime network that I head up, where you'll hear Cooper from time to time. And each month we bring you a new limited true crime series. Go to get the binge.com if you want to hear more. Okay, Cooper, today we're talking about Rex Herman. He was sentenced to yesterday. And at the end of this episode, we're going to have a very special guest come on to talk us through what happened. And in many ways, this Criminal case is closed now. So we wanted to run you all through what we understand of this moment, of what happened in the Rex Herman case, except there is one key piece that hasn't been resolved yet, which is that the bau, the behavioral analysis unit of the FBI, as a condition of his plea, will be interviewing him. And I think it'll be interesting to hear what comes of all of that. No doubt we will hear about it in the future, but also just to sort of tell the Herman story within that light.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, let's get into it.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

All right, So we know now what Rex Herman did. He admitted to it in Court on April 8th of this year. For over a quarter of a century, Rex Heuermann planned and executed the murders of eight women that we know of. He abducted, strangled, and dismembered them and buried their bodies along Ocean Parkway near Gilgo beach in Long Island. But as he exited the courtroom, we're still left with so many questions, questions that we know won't be aired in a court of law or subject to the scrutiny of the public. Questions about how he planned these murders, how he continued to get away with them, and ultimately where his mistakes led to his capture. These are the kind of questions that the BAU is going to be seeking answers to. And perhaps some of the reason for their interest lies in the materials of Rex Heuerman that they did uncover. Specifically, a planning document he wrote for himself. It laid out how to kill and to get away with it. A document that became, in a way, the spine of his secret Persona. The document included guidelines on how to prepare for the killings and how to dispose of the body, how to stay undetected. He treated each murder like a construction project, with detailed plans before, during, and after the event. He selected his victims based on a calculation that they would not be looked for. He called them TRG for short. Target T1 is Megan Waterman, who was just 22 years old when she disappeared. Had this case gone to trial, a paper towel he kept as a memento would have linked the Gilgo beach killer to make and staff. Rex Heuermann's MO Was to arrange to meet sex workers. He then brought them to his house in Massapequa Park. He timed the killings so that his wife and daughter were out of town. He admitted that he strangled most of them in the basement of the bedroom that he slept in as a boy. Then he would dismember the women, wrap them in a burlap pipe, sack and tape, and drive them to Ocean Parkway and dump them in the brush. At a spot he scouted in advance. But unlike any other serial murderer I've ever heard about, he actually used the FBI's own intelligence to evade capture. And we know about that because he literally cited it on June 6, 2024. So this is like 11 months after Heuermann was arrested, the District attorney, Ray Tierney, announced to the world that the investigators had recovered documents from a hard drive found on the killer's computer. That his intent was specifically to locate these victims, to hunt them down, and to kill them. We, of course, don't have and will likely never have access to all of the documents recovered from Rex Heuermann's home and computer. But there is this planning document. It's 87 points mapped out in shorthand in two word documents that were released by the Suffolk County DA. One of the documents begins with a list of problems. DNA, Then tire marks, fingerprints, witnesses, photos, hair, and fiber. He made a list of every category of evidence that could catch him. And he's treating each one of these like it's some kind of engineering problem. And then there's a list labeled post event. He'd change his car's tires, burn his gloves, have a story set. And at the bottom of the document, he wrote things to remember with two notes. Get sleep before hunt. Too tired. Creates problems. And then there's what I'm imagining will be of particular interest to the FBI's BAU. Heuermann's document cites specific page numbers. 162, 63, 175. The pages are from John Douglas 1996 book Mindhunter. The legendary FBI profiler's book taught a generation what a serial killer is. Rex Herman used it as a study guide. Mindhunter, of course, also was adapted into a majorly successful Netflix series. That, sure, many of you listening and watching this have seen the planning that these documents suggest was informed by an intimate knowledge of Douglas's understanding of how a serial killer operates. He seemed to have followed it as a sort of guide for how to remain undetected. You know, Cooper, I was at Crimecon just recently, and John Douglass was there speaking about. About his work. And this came up in one of the interviews that was done with him. Rex Herman's engagement with Mindhunter, the book. So according to Douglas, there are 200 notes in Rex Herman's copy of Mindhunter. I mean, the entire thing was marked up, right? His sighting of mindhunter. On page 175 of Rex Heuerman's copy of Mindhunter, he has underlined a number of the things that Are there. This is where Douglas describes mutilation as a sign of, quote, disorganized personality type. Rex Heuermann notes this as a reminder, almost to himself, to not be disorganized. Maybe there's a lot to unpack here. And we are by no means behavioral analysts or criminologists, but Dr. Casey Jordan is a criminologist. She said, quote, the fact that he tried to get rid of these documents and that they were still found on the computer memory is really going to be in connection with the DNA, kind of the nail in the coffin here. These two things combined are going to make it really difficult for the defense to overcome. There's one more thing in the planning document I wanted to mention. On Heuerman's devices, alongside the violent pornography, DA Tierney told the public that the task force found something else. He was searching, compulsively searching pictures of the victims, but not only pictures of the victims, pictures of their, their relatives, their, their, their sisters, their children. And he was trying to locate those individuals. So Cooper, he's keeping tabs on the relatives of his victims, like after they were dead. And in fact, maybe one of the most chilling things about Rex Heuermann is that he never seemed to have stopped. So, for example, the taunting calls to the teenage sister of one of the victims, Melissa Barthelemy. She was a Buffalo native who moved to the city to pursue a career as a beautician. He called this teenager over and over from her dead sister's phone, telling her what he was doing to the body. This was not like a one off cruelty situation. Okay, let's take a break here for a second. I think we all need it.

[Cooper Maul]

Lotta, unpack.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Rex Herman laid out how he killed in this manual. Right. It's a kind of arrogance that is incredible to believe anyone is even capable of. And one of the big questions I think we're left with now at this moment in this case is what will the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit actually get out of this and why are they doing it, you know?

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, I mean, that's something I've been thinking about too. Like what are we going to learn from him? And when I was researching this case and the plea, I came across an article by Joni Johnston. She's a forensic psychologist and she wrote this article about Rex, his plea. Because it's actually pretty rare to have a serial killer accept a plea agreement. And notably, we sometimes misunderstand the pathology of these killers. And here are some quotes from Joanie's article. If Heman is A narcissist protecting his image. Why wouldn't a trial appeal to him?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right. You would think this would be a great opportunity for him to tell everybody.

[Cooper Maul]

Exactly. So Joni points out the calls that Rex made to Amanda Barthelemy. Quote, he was calling a 15 year old girl and making her listen to what he had done to her sister. The calls were an extension of the crime itself. He was still feeding just on a different person's suffering. So here she's pointing out the difference between a narcissist and a sadist. Quote, a narcissist wants to be seen. A sadist wants to see you suffer. And he wants to be close enough to feel it. These are entirely different appetites and they produce different relationships to public exposure.

[Mary Shell]

Wow. Yeah.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, in this. Yeah. In this way, she seems to be suggesting that a narcissist is motivated by something different than what appears to be the motive of Rex. Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

That he might have been sadistically motivated like he was with. Yeah, I think that's calling the victim and wanting them to feel some kind of pain or discomfort or torture instead of wanting other people to see him.

[Cooper Maul]

Necessarily. Yeah. You know, she says, quote, serial killers with strong narcissistic features often relish their trials. Bundy represented himself and turned his defense into a performance. Kemper gave expansive, articulate interviews. David Berkowitz with John Douglas. By the way, David Berkowitz taunted police and media throughout his killing spree. A trial is the biggest stage any offender will ever have.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right. So then maybe a plea deal makes sense in this context because he wasn't trying to find an audience to begin with.

[Cooper Maul]

Exactly.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He wanted to torture people.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. It's about inflicting maximum suffering.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And, yeah, to do that, he has to ensure that he's not really found out. Which I think leads us to the next stage in our story where Rex seeks to maintain the appearance of a good dad, a husband, a friend, and an employer or whatever. And when we come back, we're going to get into that. We're going to meet all these people who thought they knew the real Rex Herman. His wife, his daughter, the co worker, the best friend, all the people that he put a mask on for.

[Cooper Maul]

So crazy.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

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[Cooper Maul]

So Jonathan, we know what Rex did. There are multiple murders going back to 1993. He's got this extensive planning document, photos of the victims, family members on his hard drive. Just unrelenting cruelty. An important part of this though I imagine of what the BAU seeks to gather from him is a deeper understanding of how he managed to get away with this. Like, how did this plan work for so long?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. And I think you're getting at the core of what keeps people's attention trained on these kinds of killers. There's this idea of the mask of sanity that psychopathic personalities possess. It actually comes from a book by the same title, Bundy, Gacy, the BTK Killer. All these figures presented a kind of Persona of the normal guy. Rex Heuermann was born in 1963. His father, Theodore, was an aerospace engineer and an Air Force veteran. But he died in 1975 when Heuermann was just 12 years old. From then on, he was raised by his mother, Dolores. Childhood acquaintances told the Daily Beast that Dolores could be controlling. Maybe in this way he takes after his mother. When he was young, the other kids called Rex a mama's boy. He was extremely close with her. He'd hit a growth spurt early on, and before he shot up, he was an easy target. John Parisi was a close friend of his. He knew him since first grade. And when Rex was caught, he came forward and spoke with CBS's news program 48 Hours. He said that Rex came kept to himself. He was a loner, not many friends. The children were super mean to him, made fun of him and teased him. He was big enough that if he got upset and started swinging, he would hurt somebody. But he never did. He was rejected by many girls. We all go through that awkward stage growing up. And it seemed like that awkward, awkward stage stayed with him longer than usual. So he was bullied. His dad died young. Girls didn't like him. He was a bit awkward. Still, he didn't come across as violent or dangerous. Quiet, but not unsettling. In fact, one kid knew him in high school who would go on to become a famous actor, Billy Baldwin. And he described the news of Rex Herman's cross crimes as mind boggling. After high school, Rex gets a degree in architectural technology from the New York Institute of Technology in Westbury. Eventually, in 1994, he founds his own architecture firm. Calls it RH Consultants Associates. That same year, he buys his mother's house. He pays $170,000 for the house that he grew up in. His mother might have been controlling, but he chose to live in the very place where he endured her overbearing love. And interestingly, that's where he took women, to kill them, to assert the ultimate control over them. I wonder what he'll tell the FBI about that. So in 1996, Rex Herman married an Icelandic woman named Asa Ellerup. Asa had been married to someone else and had a son with him. Rex had paid for her divorce lawyer. In the first year of their marriage, Asa gives birth to their daughter Victoria. The family of four moves into the Massapequa park house. From the outside, it is the most ordinary American family. But Asa unwittingly had just married a murderer. By the prosecution's timeline, November 1993, three years before he got married, Heuerman had already killed a woman named Sandra Costella in North sea Southampton. By 96, he'd married Asa. He'd abducted and killed Karen Vergata, a 34 year old Escort whose remains would be identified through genetic genealogy in 2023. From 96 on, he was a married man and a serial killer at the same time. Two faced. This will no doubt be a major piece of the puzzle that BAU teams will seek to understand. How did he build this life under the nose of the family? How was the mask of sanity maintained, even with his best friend? David Jimenez sat down with Peacock for House of Secrets, which aired in the beginning of June 2025. Oxygen previewed the interview the same month. I'm in a story that I never wanted to be in. I'm the best friend of a serial killer. The odds are 1 in 250 million. It's like I hit the lotto, but I didn't win any money. Not a good lotto. Jimenez is also an architect. He met rex Heuerman in 2006 at the New York City Building Department, where their professional lives overlapped. Big old Rex walks in, in his words, and introduces himself. He's really friendly. He's really nice. They bond over, you know, guns and hunting, politics, guy stuff. They start spending time together outside of work. They eventually become best friends for 17 years, until Jimenez wakes up to the news in 2023 that his best friend has been arrested as the Gilco Beach Killer. And as Jimenez looks back, there are moments, plural, that he can now identify as warnings that he didn't quite read at the time. Moments when the mask came off. The gun room. Heuermann's basement. Walk in vault behind a heavy iron door. The same Vault that in 2023 will yield 279 firearms. Rex gave him in as a tour. Jimenez said, the famous gun room. I recall vividly that he said, In 30 years, you're the fourth person to ever be in the third this room. Think about that for a second. He's Bragging about some kind of exclusivity about how few people had been invited into this world. Herman didn't kill and dismember victims in this room. That room was a soundproof and locked basement bedroom. Then there's a time at the shooting range. Herman is downrange, walking back from retrieving targets, and Jimenez is still at the firing line. And his hand brushes one of Rex's guns. And that sets him off. He said he pulled out his gun. He started running towards me. What the fuck are you doing? What are you doing? He got this close to me like this. And I put up my hands and I said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Rex. Rex put down the gun. It was really scary. Thinking back now, I think that was the monster that's hiding in there. The mask came off just for a moment. So at home among his friends, Rex was a lumbering, quiet, awkward guy. The moments when the mask came off were rare, unactionable, even when they caught people off guard. Same was true at work. And Cooper, you know, sometimes our world can feel very small. I actually know a producer named Mary who worked in crime storytelling. And I was surprised to learn that she actually knew Rex. She worked with him. He was her boss. So I called her up to talk about this.

[Mary Shell]

He was someone who made you feel like he had your back. He was going to help you out. He was going to teach you some valuable skills.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Mary Shell was one of the people who worked for Heuerman during the summer of 2010.

[Mary Shell]

The first day that I was in the office with him, he said something like, you know, I cannot wait to see the look on your old boss's face when he sees you working here. And I was spooked. I was like, this is not good. Like, this guy's gonna cause problems for me. He liked to shock people. One of his employees told me he would go on these hunting trips, and he would send, you know, the, like, dead game pictures around to employees to gross them out. So this is somebody who wants us to know what he was up to.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

None of these things that she's describing are necessarily the kind of things that make you want to call up a police department and say, hey, I found a serial killer. But there was something unnerving about it. It seems that was the summer, the summer of 2010, when Mary worked there that Rex Herman killed. Two of the kill go four. I'm trying to imagine the shock and surprise and any number of other emotions you felt when you found out who the Gilgo beach killer, the Long island serial killer was.

[Mary Shell]

I was so. I was so shocked. Like, I didn't want anyone touching me. It's like you don't trust anyone, but you also don't trust yourself because you've been interacting with a mirage for, for God knows how long. I spoke to my old boss in December and he was like, no, I don't. I don't think he did it. And I was like, what are you talking about? You don't think you did it? And he was like, well, you know, he, he laughed at my joke. He was, you know, he was nice to my kids. And he kind of stopped everything. And he looked at me and he goes, except he probably did do it, didn't he? It's hard for normal people who would never do something like that to imagine that anyone would. I think that's the best way because we cannot put ourselves in his shoes because we are not like him. The reason a serial killer can, can be a serial killer is because they're good at putting up some sort of showing up act in their daily life.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Then there's the people who lived with Rex Dayan and dayout who shared a life with him. His wife, for example. Eight months after his arrest, she did an interview in the driveway of the Massapequa park house with Court TV's Matt Johnson on March 2024. She was in deep denial at that time. And she said, quote, he's not capable of the crimes. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, as we all deserve. My husband was home here. He is a family man. Then In June of 2025, 15 months later, Peacock airs the documentary House of Secrets. Asa is the main voice. She walks through the same house. She opens the heavy steel door to a basement gun room she says she was not allowed to access for 27 years. Then a separate locked room under the stairs. Asa's daughter Victoria can't quite fathom it either. She walks through the basement where by this point, she knows her father has confessed to murder. And this is what she says, quote, say, if that really did happen down here, he must really have been like Superman for us to have not noticed anything ever. This used to be his bedroom growing up. While we were having fun on vacation, he was home murdering and dismembering women. Here. Every person in Rex Herman's life saw a piece of him. His best friend, his co worker, his wife. They all couldn't believe this family man strangled and murdered women, which is exactly what he wanted them to think. So as I Mentioned earlier, I was at CrimeCon just recently, and our show, Hunting the Boogeyman on the Binge was up for an award. And John Douglas was there, too.

[Cooper Maul]

The Mind Hunter guy.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, the subject of Rex Herman's studies. And he talked about folks going in to talk to Rex as part of this plea agreement.

[Cooper Maul]

So I think Douglas and all of us, you know, we're curious about why this guy did what he did.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, we all want to know. And I also thought it was kind of notable that in there, Rex Herman seems to also be looking to the bau. And I don't know how I feel about that.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, me neither.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

You know, are we entering into an agreement with this individual to gain information or to satisfy his curiosity? Because if it is in any way, shape or form about satisfying his curiosity, I don't think this person deserves the satisfaction of their curiosity.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, I'm with you there. You know, and the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit actually has a name for this type. They call it the Pro Social Killer. Mary Ellen o' Toole was a senior profiler at the FBI for years. She talked about this recently on Fox News Digital after Heuermann was arrested. Her point paraphrasing, is that the more normal the surface life, the longer the killer goes undetected, because nobody is looking for a guy with a wife and kids, an architecture firm. Right?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right. So the science we develop to understand men like him is the science he used to evade us. That's sort of the dark inversion at the heart of this case. Right.

[Cooper Maul]

It is so wild because it means our normal sniff test for who a serial killer is just doesn't work on Rex. Right. Like.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Cooper Maul]

The people around him weren't asleep. They were just looking for the wrong kind of icon. Right?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. And ultimately, I think it is important for us to note here, too, that the BAU is not necessarily designed to catch killers. It's designed to understand them. So we can't hold that particular agency to account for catching or not catching a killer, but it does present these complex moral and ethical questions when a plea agreement like this stipulates that he participate in interviews and raises questions for me, at least, on why, you know? So that brings us to the last kind of piece of this puzzle, Cooper, which is he effectively planned his crimes. Right. He hid them. But ultimately, he did make a mistake, a mistake that was hiding away in a police file. So in 2010, a friend of one of the victims came forward, a guy named Dave Schaller. Dave said he had seen Herman the night that his friend went missing. He saw her with one of her jaunts. She was a sex worker. He described the man as an ogre driving a dark green Chevy Avalanche. He told the cops in Suffolk county that's exactly what he had seen. And that info was on file for 12 long years. So when we come back, you're going to meet the new DA who finally put that information to use. Coming up, Rex Heuerman makes a mistake and will finally face justice. But that is not the end of the story. You know, when people hear that Mint Mobile plans start at just 15 bucks a month, the immediate reaction is always okay, but what's the catch? But honestly, there really isn't one. You get unlimited talk and text, reliable, fast coverage on the nation's largest 5G network, and you get to keep your current phone and number. Mint basically took everything annoying about wireless plans and made it simple. And one thing I've definitely noticed since switching is just not having that giant monthly phone bill hanging over me anymore. You choose a 3, 6 or 12 month plan upfront and then you're done thinking about it. So if you're still overpaying for wireless, it's a pretty easy switch. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com Crimescene that's mintmobile.com Crimescene cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com Crimescene THAT'S IT. No catch. $45 upfront payment required. Equivalent to $15 a month new customers on first 3 month only. Speed slower above 40 gigabyte on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. This episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with 3 days free. Build your own multi view. Choose up to three stream streams and follow players spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World cup streaming live on Fox One offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[Cooper Maul]

So Jonathan, as this case Sat in late 2021, there were four bodies on Ocean Parkway found in December 2010. Further sets of remains in the surrounding Pine Barrens over the next year were discovered and most of those remains identified. None of those murders have were solved. So the man who killed them, though, he was living six and a half miles inland from the dump sites the entire time?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Correct. And then In January of 2022, the man behind the prosecutor's desk in Suffolk county changes, and that would change everything. In this case, the newly elected Ray Tierney walks into office. He's a career prosecutor stepping into the seat vacated by a police chief whose corruption landed him in federal prison. Mind you, that was the guy running the Gilgo investigation previously. Tierney pulls every relevant document on the Gilgo file, He brings the FBI back in, he forms a multi agency task force, and six weeks later, they have a breakthrough. In February of 2022, we formed the task force. And then a mere six weeks later, Rex Heuerman was identified for the first time. The task force delivers Dave Schaller's 2010 description and in particular, the car. First generation Chevy Avalanche. An investigator runs the truck through a database that searches vehicles without a plate number. The system spits back a list of dark green first gen avalanches registered in the Long island area around 2010. One name on that list lives inside what the FBI agents had years earlier triangulated. As the cell tower hits from the killer's burner phones a few square blocks of Massapequa Park, Tierney refers to it as the Box. The name was rex Heuermann. For 16 months, beginning in March of 2022, the task force watches him. They trace his burner phones, which he buys in Manhattan cell phone shops. They pull his Google search history. They watch him search on his own devices for podcasts about the Long island serial killer. Hey, Rex. For photos of the victim, families. The killer is watching the investigation into himself. The investigation is watching the killer watch. Then, in the late spring of 2023, they get him to throw something away. Now, we've all heard stories like this where detectives are trying to gain DNA of a suspect. This one is particularly dramatic. Plain Clothes surveillance is watching Rex Herman, and he buys a slice of pizza from a midtown joint and walks back toward his fifth Avenue office. He throws the crust into a sidewalk trash can. They retrieve that crust, the lab pulls DNA off of it, and they compare it to a male hair found on the sack surrounding Megan Waterman's body. The DNA on the crust matches the DNA on the hair. The DNA profile on the hair is, per the court filings, found in only 0.04% of the population. He's arrested, and after saying he was innocent, he eventually pleads guilty. This April, in a packed courtroom in Riverhead, Long Island Suffolk County Court, the judge is on the bench. Rex Heuermann is 62 years old. He's wearing a black suit jacket and a white button down. He appears, in the words of every reporter present, unemotional as if he's, you know, closing on a building permit. The judge reads the names. He asks Heuerman how he please. Maureen Brainard Barnes. Guilty. Melissa Barthelemy. Guilty. Megan Waterman. Guilty. Amberlynn Costello. Guilty. Jessica Taylor. Guilty. Sandra Costella. Guilty. Valerie Mack. Guilty. Seven times in a row. Then he admits to killing an eighth victim, Karen Vergata, the one who was known as Fire Island Jane Doe before genetic genealogy gave her back her name. Rex Sheuermann is a demon that walks among us, a predator that ruined families. That afternoon, Tierney holds a press conference at the Suffolk County Police Academy. This defendant walked among us play acting as a normal suburban dad, when in reality, all along, he was obsessively targeting innocent women for death. He thought that by killing them, he could silence them forever and get away with murder. But he was wrong. Because it was these victims, these women who refused to stay silent. And then there are the voices that get the last word. The families on the steps of the Suffolk County Courthouse on April 8, 2020 six hours after Rex Heuermann's plea, Melissa called. Missy can, the sister of Maureen Brainard Barnes stepped up to a microphone, and she'd been waiting to be in front of that microphone since the summer of 2007.

[Mary Shell]

Today is not about the person responsible. Today is about the women's lives who were stolen is about their voices, their future, and their families. 19 years I lived in the space between heartbreak and hope. Throughout these years, I searched for answer, for truth, for justice. There were moments when the weight felt unbearable, but I never gave up. Maureen was never forgotten, not for a single moment. From the day she went missing until today, she has been carried in every breath, every memory, every fight for answers.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So here we are as of the recording of this episode. Cooper, with the sentencing hearing just being completed, and I think there are some big questions about what the purpose of this plea deal was, why it was agreed to, and whether or not that agreement is worth it in this scenario.

[Mary Shell]

I really question what they're going to learn from this that's going to change anything. I cannot help but feel like this is a real dream come true for Rex.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There is really a danger of mythologizing a person like Rex Herman.

[Cooper Maul]

Most definitely.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He decided to agree to this plea. So he enters into this kind of sick and unnecessary pantheon.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. Kind of feeds into his. Or at least, you know, what's been assumed about his psyche. Right. That he's somebody who is commanding a lot of attention. He wants to inflict suffering. And is this only feeding into his ego? That he's, like, worthy enough to have this exception made for him, that he's worthy enough to be studied. Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And are we doing this so that the BAU can understand maybe the ways in which he manipulated their information to commit acts? And then is that about satisfying an institutional curiosity, or is it about finding justice in the most ultimate and terminal way for the victims of these crimes? Or both of those things? Can they exist together? I really don't know the answer. I want to know what you guys think.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. I'm very, very curious what other people think about this. Yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And stay tuned because at the end of this episode, the behavioral analyst that we spoke about earlier in this episode, Joni Johnston, is joining me in studio to talk about the sentencing hearing to help us make sense of some of these questions. So stick around. We're going to have a very special bonus episode with Joni talking about the sentencing hearing that if you're listening to this, on the day of the launch of this episode, just happened.

[Cooper Maul]

All right, Jonathan, before we go.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Cooper Maul]

All episodes of Cut Color Kill, your most recent title on the Binge, are out now. And I encourage everybody who hasn't listened to listen.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, go check it out right now. It's crazy story.

[Cooper Maul]

It is truly remarkable. And I know when a series wraps.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Cooper Maul]

There's kind of this reflective time period. Right. And I'm curious what makes Cut Color Kill stand out to you amidst, you know, all the other titles you've reported for the Binge.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. There's a certain sheen to the story itself. Right. A celebrity hairdresser is brutally murdered and the affair that is sort of associated with his death. But for me, I think if I'm reflecting on what makes this story unique, it is kind of the half life of a murder's impact on a family, you know, So, I mean, if you're listening to this story and you kind of get to the end of it, which I encourage everybody to do, I actually think it would be interesting to hear from all of you what. What you take away from that relationship. You know, if you had a loved one say, you gotta stay close to your family no matter what, and they're not really contemplating the possibility that they might be murdered.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Well, how could you drive a wedge between two sides of a family? How do you reconcile that? I think that's the question I'm still sort of, you know, playing over in my mind and be curious what you guys think as well, you know, when you have a chance to listen to it. Hey, y', all, thank you so much for joining us on Crime Scene. Just a reminder here, you can watch or listen to us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is a production of Sony Podcasts and the Binge. Thank you to everybody who makes this happen week in and week out. Also, we're journalists. We love journalism. These stories have been deeply reported, the ones that you hear on the show and you can find an extensive bibliography by going to the show notes of this episode and to every episode to learn more about the reporting that informed all of the great stories you hear on Crime Scene. And just one last note, you can get exclusive content from us and the binge over 60 jaw dropping true crime stories bingeable and ad free right now by signing up for our [e-mail] so go to getthebinge.com to get access to our entire catalog of stories, but also to get behind the scenes access to all of the stories that Cooper and I are working on. To join us in the conversation about these cases, go to getthebinge.com to learn more. Athletic Brewing Company Crafts Award winning non alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round. With over 185 flavor awards, they're exceptional NA beers that fit your lifestyle and any social occasion. Summer's full of good times and Athletic fits right in. Go to athleticbrewing.com to have brews delivered to your door or find them at a bar, restaurant or store near you near Beer Athletic Brewing Co. Fit for all Times.