The Grief Author | Annie Elise Reaction to Kouri Richins Sentencing

Summary

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Crime Scene Podcast | "The Grief Author" – Annie Elise Reacts to Kouri Richins Sentencing

Podcast: Crime Scene (Sony Music Entertainment/The Binge)
Date: May 15, 2026
Host(s): Jonathan Hirsch, Cooper Maul
Special Guest: Annie Elise (Ten to Life, Serial-lessly)
Case: The Kouri (Corey) Richins Case – The “Grief Author”

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Overview: Main Theme

This episode of Crime Scene revisits the infamous case of Kouri (“Corey”) Richins, a Utah mother who poisoned her husband, Eric Richins, with fentanyl, then gained national attention by publishing a children’s book about grief. The narrative explores the shocking double life of a woman who authored a tale of healing — while hiding her own role in her husband’s death. The podcast closely examines the crime, the investigation, the trial, and the emotional impact of the sentencing, featuring a deep-dive reaction from true crime podcaster Annie Elise, who attended the highly anticipated sentencing hearing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Death of Eric Richins and Initial Investigation

[05:36–09:06]

• March 4, 2022: 39-year-old Eric Richins found dead at home in Camas, Utah; his wife Kouri claims natural causes (brain aneurysm).
• Toxicology Report: Reveals 5x lethal dose of fentanyl; Eric had no history of drug use.
• Investigation: Initially, law enforcement treats as “non-suspicious,” but Eric’s family remains skeptical.

“The autopsy tells a totally different story...the medical examiner finds that Eric had approximately five times the lethal concentration of fentanyl in his system.”
— Jonathan Hirsch [6:56]

• Fentanyl’s Lethality: Hosts discuss how fentanyl, undetectable to sight, leaves few clues—making it an infamous “perfect poison.”

2. The Marriage – Financial Turmoil & Motive

[12:18–23:28]

• Financial Disaster: Kouri’s house-flipping business leveraged massive amounts of high-risk debt, overdrafted accounts, and owed between $1.6–$7.5 million.
• Secret Loans & Deception: Kouri secretly opened a $250k home equity line without Eric’s knowledge, forging his signature as power of attorney.
• Eric’s Response: Rather than divorce, Eric created a trust for his assets (masonry company and life insurance), quietly leaving Kouri out of inheritance.

"[Eric] quietly changed his will...and he didn’t say anything publicly about all of this..."
— Jonathan Hirsch [18:22]

• Affair Revealed: Kouri was romantically involved with business associate Josh Grossman — building more motive, supported by text evidence.

3. Murder Attempts & Method

[22:04–28:15]

• Valentine’s Day Attempt: On February 14, 2022, Eric became violently ill after lunch packed by Kouri. He blacked out, used an EpiPen, and later joked to friends, "Kouri's trying to kill me."
• The Murder Night (March 4): Kouri makes Moscow Mules to celebrate a real estate deal. Eric dies during the night; Kouri claims she discovered him after comforting a child.
• Aftermath: Within days, Kouri attempts to access a family safe—promptly triggering a physical altercation with Eric’s sister over the changing of the trust and access to funds.

4. The Private Investigation & Key Witness

[30:30–34:28]

• Family’s PI: Eric’s family hires PI Todd Gabler, whose persistent investigation uncovers deleted messages, phone records, and the crucial role of housekeeper Carmen Lauber, who became the fentanyl conduit.
• Housekeeper’s Testimony: Carmen, a convicted felon, reveals she twice supplied Kouri with fentanyl, first for Valentine’s Day (unsuccessful attempt), then a second, deadlier batch used in Eric’s murder.

"Carmen goes to her dealer, buys roughly 20 fentanyl pills for $1,000 and hands them over..."
— Jonathan Hirsch [33:04]

• Evidence: Financial records, insurance, and “what is a lethal dose of fentanyl?” searches on Kouri’s phone further corroborate the prosecution’s theory.

5. The "Grief Author" Book and Public Persona

[38:18–41:03]

• Book Released: On March 7, 2023, exactly one year after Eric’s death, Kouri self-publishes Are You With Me?, a children’s book about loss and grieving a parent.
• Media Promotions: Kouri appears on local TV, speaking about healing and peace, while under investigation for her husband's murder.

“She was building a public Persona as the heartbroken mother, to, like, stir up empathy...”
— Jonathan Hirsch [39:42]

• Truth Revealed: Investigation finds the book was ghostwritten, designed as a PR move to shape public perception and instill sympathy.

6. The Trial – Evidence, Weaknesses, and Verdict

[41:42–47:46+]

• Prosecution: Entirely circumstantial but overwhelming: financial motive, tampered insurance, the affair, texts, housekeeper testimony, and Kouri’s suspicious Google searches.
• Defense: Points out no direct evidence of Kouri dosing Eric’s drink; hinges on reliability of Carmen, potential for alternative causes; argues circumstantial and open to “reasonable doubt.”
• Dramatic Evidence: Prosecution reveals Kouri wrote a jailhouse “walk the dog letter” attempting to script false testimony for her mother—admitted as evidence by the court.

“…a script, a detailed set of instructions for what false testimony they should give at trial...”
— Jonathan Hirsch [41:03]

• Verdict: Jury deliberates just over three hours, returns verdict: guilty on all counts (aggravated murder, attempted murder, insurance fraud, forgery).
• Sentencing Hearing: Family and victims deliver impact statements, highlighting the trauma endured by Eric’s sons.

7. Annie Elise’s Reaction: The Sentencing, Theatrics & Family Trauma

[52:04–77:46+]

Sentencing Details

• Kouri Richins sentenced to life without parole—unanimously seen by hosts and guest as appropriate.

“I personally think that the sentence was 100% accurate. I mean, life without parole... what she did... how she capitalized on the death, how she was after money, the financial game, what she put her boys through… there would have been, in my opinion, no true accountability if it was a 25-year-old type sentence.”
— Annie Elise [53:51]

Victim Impact & Children’s Trauma

• Heartbreaking statements from the three sons, expressing deep fear and the wish to never see their mother free again.

"The oldest one said, 'I'm afraid if she gets out, she will come after me and my brothers and my whole family.' A 13-year-old boy is afraid of his own mother."
— Host/Interviewer [56:11]

Kouri’s “Performance” in Court

• Kouri’s 40-minute address is described as disconnected, manipulative, and theatrical.

“If I could roll my eyes any harder, I would be looking at my brain right now. Okay? ...she likes to control the narrative. She likes to seem like the martyr... highly manipulative.”
— Annie Elise [60:57–61:47]

• Spoke directly to her children—not to the court, evoking skepticism from all commentators.

Appeals and Ongoing Legal Fallout

• Likely Appeals: Defense flagged the circumstantial nature of the case, admissibility of the “walk the dog letter,” and no physical evidence (no found pills) as grounds.
• Civil Suit Pending: Eric’s estate filed a $13M civil suit for wrongful death, theft, and “misappropriation of likeness” for the grief book.
• Financial Crimes Trial to Come: RICO, fraud, forgery, and money laundering charges pending—filed just before statutes of limitations expired.

Cultural Commentary: True Crime and Public Perception

• Richins case likened to true crime cases like Jodi Arias, Menendez brothers—media fascination with female killers, manipulation, and performative grief.
• Goodreads reviews lampoon Are You With Me? as “a killer book” with macabre humor.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Irony of the Case

"It was a calculated cover for a grief that she herself may have authored.”
— Jonathan Hirsch [50:13]

On Eric’s Precautions

“He did everything to protect himself legally, and it just wasn’t enough.”
— Cooper Maul [50:54]

On the Children’s Trauma

“[The boys] should never have that feeling, especially about someone who is supposed to be the trusted individual who takes care of them and nurtures them and loves them.”
— Annie Elise [56:25]

On Kouri’s Final Statement

“I think it was in a way for her to...manipulate the boys to get back in their good graces, to hope that that would elicit some sort of sympathy going forward...I think this was more about saving her own skin and her own well being..."
— Annie Elise [61:47]

On Future Legal and Media Fallout

“You know, a book coming out of prison. You know, she’s going to want to be on the Datelines, the 2020. She’s going to do it. She’s going to pedal her story as far and wide as she can.”
— Annie Elise [65:39]

On the True Crime Spectacle

“Such a testament to where we are as a culture when entertainment and the criminal justice system collide the way that they do.”
— Host [68:17]

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Important Timestamps for Segments

• [05:36] — Breakdown of Eric Richins’ death and toxicology
• [12:18] — Examination of finances, business debts, and marital crisis
• [22:04] — Valentine’s Day poisoning attempt
• [30:30] — The PI’s breakthrough and the housekeeper’s testimony
• [38:18] — Release and role of grief children’s book
• [41:42] — “Walk the dog” jailhouse letter and evidence tampering
• [43:12] — Testimony of maid, lover, forensic accountant
• [47:23] — Rapid verdict: guilty on all five counts
• [52:04] — Annie Elise joins for sentencing breakdown
• [55:10] — Victim impact statements from the children
• [58:54] — Dissection of Kouri’s courtroom performance
• [62:37] — Discussion of likelihood and basis for appeal
• [65:39] — Predictions for Kouri’s media and legal future
• [71:07] — Civil suit and further legal consequences
• [74:31] — The symbolism of sentencing on Eric’s birthday

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Conclusion: Reflections and Open Questions

The Kouri Richins case became an emblem of the “double life” true crime genre—where image, manipulation, and motive intertwine. The episode concludes by highlighting how the circumstantial evidence, emotional devastation, and performative aftermath have captivated the public. With appeals and new charges pending, the story is not yet over, ensuring the Crime Scene team (and the true crime community) will revisit it again.

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For new listeners:

This summary provides a comprehensive walkthrough of the Kouri Richins case, as explored on Crime Scene – blending forensic detail, psychological insight, and cultural analysis. For more true crime content and access to behind-the-scenes discussions, visit getthebinge.com.

Transcript

[Jonathan Hirsch]

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[Host/Interviewer]

Unless of course, you're the one who

[Jonathan Hirsch]

burned the house down in the first place. On March 4, 2022, Eric Richards, a 39 year old Utah Stonesman, father of three, was found dead in his bed in Camas, Utah. The case, a lethal dose of fentanyl. His wife Corey was devastated. She had no idea what happened. In the months and years after Corrie would become something of a celebrity, she wrote a deeply personal children's book about a little boy like her own sons who had to live without their father. It was a story that made national headlines. An inspiring tale of one family grappling with grief. But behind that soothing story, a shocking alternate reality. That grief, it seems, was a fiction. Welcome to Crime Scene, the show where we tell the stories behind the world's most unforgettable crimes. This week on the show, the infamous case of Corey Richards. What appears to be an open and shut poisoning turns into something far more complex and sinister. From Sony podcasts and the binge, this is the Cory Richens story, a case we're calling the Grief Author. Hey all, welcome to the Crime Scene office. I'm Jonathan Hirsch.

[Cooper Maul]

And I'm Cooper Maul.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And together each week we're gonna bring you the most remarkable cases and crimes we're now and throughout history, we're going to dive into all the aspects of the case investigations, criminal and legal, all the different angles. But most importantly, we're going to tell you the story beat by beat, line by line. This show is a part of the Binge, which is Sony's true crime podcast network of limited run shows that I lead up where you might hear me from time to time. And Cooper, think of this as all the things that you love about twisty turny limited run narrative series in a single episode. Okay, Cooper, the time has finally come for this story. You and I have been talking about this for a long time, the Cory Richins case. And I just wanted to say that this is a very important moment in that case history. We are talking to you now just before the sentencing hearing in Cory Richens case is about to happen. We are going to come back to this case in real time after we've told you everything that has happened here and talk about what the sentencing ends up being and what it means for the Cory Richards case at the end of this episode. So stay tuned for our reaction live to what is happening in the Cory Richards case right now. Okay, so many of you are familiar with the Cory Richards case. It's perhaps the biggest crime story of the year so far.

[Cooper Maul]

Definitely.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And it's a remarkable story that doesn't happen even every year or every era. But I think at the heart of it, like all of the stories that we do on crime scene, we are looking also at sort of the moral tale component of these crime cases. What does it mean as a human being to encounter a story like the one that we're seeing today? We try to be thoughtful about this. And if I'm thinking on what sort of the bigger picture story of the Cory Richens case is, I would say it's almost the story of somebody trying to control the narrative of their own crime. And in a lot of the stories, you know, that we've done, it's almost like we see what appears to be a sequence of events that should be prosecutable, bring justice for the family, but then the evidence doesn't quite line up. I'm like thinking about, like Mountain man as an example of that, you know. But in this case, it's almost like the inverse of that, where the evidence tells a very different story than the story that the perpetrator is telling.

[Cooper Maul]

Let's get into it.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Okay, so our story begins on March 4, 2022, in Camas, Utah, a small community in Summit county, which is about like 40 miles east of Salt Lake City. It's about 3 in the morning. And Corey Richards calls 91 1. Her husband Eric is cold to the touch and he's not breathing. Emergency responders arrive. Eric Richins is 39 years old and he's declared dead on the scene.

[Cooper Maul]

So at this point there's no reason to think he died of anything other than natural causes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Correct?

[Cooper Maul]

Died in his sleep.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right, Correct that. And that's how Corey presents it. She tells people that he died of a brain aneurysm. And from the jump, the Summit County Sheriff's Office treat this as a non suspicious death. But Eric's family, also from the jump, sort of had questions.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, them and me both. I mean he was only 39 years old.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's such a random thing, Right?

[Cooper Maul]

I know that brain aneurysms, you know, can happen at any age. They are totally random. But did he have any risk factors, like any health problems that made him more predisposed to an aneurysm?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

No, he wasn't sick. And the people who knew him best, his partner Cody, his sister Katie, they couldn't shake this feeling that something was wrong.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, certainly an autopsy will get to the bottom of it.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, and the autopsy tells a totally different story. Right. The medical examiner finds that Eric had approximately five times the lethal concentration of fentanyl in his system.

[Cooper Maul]

Geez. I mean, the smallest amount of fentanyl can kill you. I mean you see in those kind of like anti drug ads, it's like the tiniest amount on a pin. Right. I mean that is intense. So if you didn't have any health problems, clearly isn't like a prescription dose gone wrong.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Maybe it's like the. How do we find out where this came from? Right. Is the sort of next question. And then they're able to establish pretty quickly that this was an illicit sort of street fentanyl, the kind of stuff you would get from a drug dealer. But Eric doesn't have any known history of drug use.

[Cooper Maul]

So from the medical examiner's perspective, this is not an accident.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Exactly.

[Cooper Maul]

So with the information available to me at the time of the autopsy, the decedent did not have a history of any kind of illicit drug use or prescription medication abuse. So the fentanyl level should have been zero. There should not have been any fentanyl or nor fentanyl present.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

We should talk about fentanyl for a second here because it is more powerful than morphine, as we all know. It is measured in micrograms. Like we were talking earlier about that sort of pin drop being enough to be deadly. But it also notably doesn't leave any visible marks when you overdose. There's no distinguishable signs that this is different from, say, a natural cardiac event that could happen.

[Cooper Maul]

The nearly, like, perfect quote unquote poison for anyone maybe planning a murder. Right. I mean, like you said, there's nothing visually suspicious.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It just seems like a sudden death that happens right on the scene. So in the hours after Eric's death, they didn't notice anything that looked suspicious because of this. It just appeared as though this man died in his sleep. And it wasn't until the toxicology report that it sort of cracked the whole thing wide open.

[Cooper Maul]

So now investigators need to answer this really basic question, which is how did this guy with no drug history end up with five times the lethal dose of fentanyl in his system? Yeah. Naturally, they're going to look at his spouse.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right. It's like a classic version of the refrain. It's always the husband, it's always the wife.

[Cooper Maul]

Exactly. So tell me a little bit about his wife.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Corey Richards. She's 33 years old. She's brunette. She wouldn't look out of place in an L.L. bean catalog. And so often, I think these are the kind of cases that also catch fire in the public's imagination. She's sort of this, like, traditionally attractive woman.

[Cooper Maul]

And people next door.

[Annie Elise]

Yep.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Sort of preoccupy themselves with that aspect of it. But they also had this very wholesome family dynamic that I think made this all the more surprising.

[Cooper Maul]

Like, these could be our friends and neighbors, Right?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Exactly. What a nice couple. How could that possibly have happened? She'd been married to Eric for eight years at this point. They had three sons together. And she ran this real estate company where they, like, flipped houses. And so by the time the toxicology report comes back, investigators have already heard that things between the two of them aren't as, you know, cookie cutter as it would appear to be from the outside. It makes it very difficult to ignore Corey as a suspect. Coming up, a marriage drowning in debt, a husband quietly finding an out, and a Valentine's Day that ends with Eric Richens fighting for his life.

[Annie Elise]

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[Jonathan Hirsch]

Winter is so last season, and now

[Cooper Maul]

spring's got you Looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. So to catch everybody up. Eric Richens has recently been found dead.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Cooper Maul]

The toxicology reports come back saying he had five times the lethal amount of fentanyl in his system. So Jonathan, I need you to take me back a little bit because I feel like to understand what happened in that bedroom on March 4th, I feel like I need to understand who these people were and a little bit more about their marriage, starting with Eric.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, so far we know this sort of unfathomable death happening to somebody who didn't appear to be in any sort of health emergency or crisis. And you know, his wife and their family, it's very successful. But Eric was a co owner of like a stone masonry company, CNE Stone Masonry. It was a business that he built from the ground up. He had a business partner that we mentioned, Cody Wright, and described him as like the steady one. You know, he was careful with money, he was reliable. He's the kind of person that you counted on. And he and Corey had married in June of 2013. To the outside world, they looked successful. You know, they had this beautiful home in a mountain community, three boys, you know, these thriving businesses.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, I mean, was. They're both business owners. Was Corey's. How was Corey's business doing?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Corey's business had some issues and that sort of gets us into some new territory here. Corey's company, KRR Realty, that was the company she used to handle Real Est renovation resell places it on paper, looked very entrepreneurial, but in reality it was like a financial disaster and had been spiraling for years. She was borrowing from more than 25 hard money lenders simultaneously. These are like private individuals and companies that charge high interest rates because the borrower can't get like conventional financing. They're over leveraged or they don't have, you know, enough assets. If you remember those of you binge fans that can go back into the catalog to recall, there was a series we did called Lady Mafia that was about a hard money lender, among other things that got her into quite a bit of trouble and some prison time. Sara King, she was the subject of lady mafia and she got sort of wrapped up in this business that definitely has some shady elements to it, you know.

[Cooper Maul]

So Cory was using new debt to service all day.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Exactly. That is exactly right. And she couldn't keep up with the burden of it. So between 2021 and 2022, she attempted 236 transactions that were overdrafted. Oh my God. I mean she put my parents bankruptcy history to shame here. She totaled more than $300,000 during those transactions and incurred nearly $6,000,000 in overdraft fees.

[Cooper Maul]

Nuts. I mean I thought when I was younger I held the record for most overdraft fees.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Like Guinness Book of Records level.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

If that isn't even a category. Like we should find out. A forensic accountant who later investigated the case said Corey's bank account was perpetually in the hole.

[Cooper Maul]

Yes, that sounds like an accurate description.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, I mean I love it with these quotes we sometimes watch with these

[Host/Interviewer]

people that are just like.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So matter of fact, at the time of Eric's death, she owed somewhere between 1.6 and $7.5 million, depending on how you count it.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean that kind of debt is just incomprehensible to me. And it's probably, you know, makes you feel extremely anxious. And there's a lot of secrets around debt. Right. I mean, was Eric aware of any of this?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He was aware of some of it. But the story does get a little darker and back to your point about like the business and sort of like how terrifying that is. There is sort of a high wire act element to house flipping. You know, my wife and I at one point we, you know, had a home that we renovated that was up in the mountains up here in the San Bernardino's and then we sold it. And so I think we learned a lot about like what that business looks like. And it is not an easy business to run because you buy a fixer upper or whatever, some home that you think that you can renovate and sell at a higher rate that comes with all the things that a fixer upper might have. You know, you get in there and you like open up a wall and there's you know, maybe animals living in there. You get down under the foundation and there's no foundation. Like there are things that you uncover along the way that can just spiral. So around 2019, Corey's definitely in the hole. As was said, she opened a $250,000 home equity line of credit on their house. So this is now inching closer and closer to the Family. This isn't just a business venture gone wrong. They're starting to take money out against the house. Right. She named Eric as the lending party on here and also the power of attorney, but didn't tell him about it. So there's some relationship issues that are bubbling up too, where she's kind of. This business is starting to get out of hand, but she's also not communicating to her husband about what's going on. And while Eric was still alive, his brother in law found this document in the Summit county property records. It wasn't like something that was brought up later after the fact.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know, Jonathan. I think if my spouse had gone behind my back and did all that, I would probably be considering divorce.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

According to the testimony, he was very upset and sad. But instead of filing for divorce immediately, he decided to protect himself legally because maybe he just didn't feel like there were some boundaries here that there needed to be. So in 2020, he creates this revocable trust that, you know, is there in case he should die or become incapacitated In February of 2021, the next year, he transfers the entire business, his masonry business and everything surrounding it into that trust and names his sister as the trustee, not Corey.

[Cooper Maul]

Okay, so Eric was planning what would happen in case he died.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

He was, yes. He updated his life insurance policy as well to name his sister Katie as a beneficiary. He quietly changed his will. He met with a divorce attorney, and he didn't say anything publicly about all of this. And he didn't call it quits officially with Corey just yet.

[Cooper Maul]

You know, I totally get. Relationships are complicated and I typically reserve comment on them totally. In this case, I can't help but wonder just given how much he had already known about this financial betrayal and these ongoings behind his back.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Cooper Maul]

Why Eric continued to stick around.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, you wonder. It's like, why did you file this away under, like the millions of stories that we come across? They're like, why didn't you just get a divorce?

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. And I know with kids and, you know, shared assets, it's a little bit more complicated.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. I feel like the older I get too, as I, you know, I'm in my 40s, like, I have married with kids and, you know, I see some of my friends come to this pass in similar situations, and just to disentangle your whole life becomes a very complicated issue. And I'm sure that probably played into it. And maybe to an extent, he wanted to make sure everything was like Set up and safe for his kids should he decide to get a divorce from this person.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. I mean, but you've got her, like, doing these, you know, shady behind the scenes dealings.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cooper Maul]

And then him also having the, you know, getting his ducks in a row behind the scenes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Cooper Maul]

Gotta be some kind of unspoken tension inside of this home. Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And you have to imagine, too, that this is like a conservative community in, you know, a suburb in Utah. Like, this is not necessarily a place where, you know, people are gonna be chomping at the bit to get a divorce the second things go haywire.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, definitely.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There's another aspect to this, too, which is they did sign a prenup, at Eric's mom's insistence. And this prenup, of course, they, like, split their assets 50, 50 if there was a divorce. But there was a death clause there, too, which was if Eric died, that business share would pass on to Corey.

[Cooper Maul]

All right, I smell emotive here.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, you're starting to see something there. Right. So Corey knew about that clause. And after Eric died and after she. About the trust that he had left in the share of his sister and all of that, she filed a civil lawsuit and claimed that Corey was entitled to the full $2 million of the business interest under the death provision in her prenup. The prosecutors and Eric's estate argued that the trust transfer superseded it. So there's, like, a messy legal contradiction there that they have to sort out. But the courts largely agreed that this money doesn't go to Corey. So not only was she financially desperate, here's the other thing. She was in love with somebody else.

[Cooper Maul]

Oh, okay. So this is just going from. From bad to worse.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. And this is partially, I think, why this story captured people's imagination. The guy's name is Robert Josh Grossman. He was an Iraq war veteran who's 43 years old. He'd relocated to Utah in part to pursue some real estate deals with Corey. He was under her employ. All right, and there's evidence of texts between the two of them throughout early 2022, including one from the night Eric died, in which Corey had sent Grossman, quote, love you.

[Cooper Maul]

Oof. Okay, so between the affair and the asset transfers, I'm kind of feeling like all this is. Is definitely building toward something.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. And even though she's seeing this other guy, she hasn't gotten a divorce yet. Eric is not trying to get a divorce necessarily. He's consulting people. They're kind of putting on the appearance that this relationship is still ongoing, that they're married that they're in a relationship. So On Valentine's Day, 2022, she packed a lunch for Eric, and it had a sandwich and a Valentine's Day note. Later that day, Eric became violently ill while driving, and he broke out in hives. He blacked out. He had to use an EpiPen. His business partner, Cody, testified that Eric had called him from the truck. And there was, like, fear in his voice, like, unlike anything he had heard before. Why is it you remember that phone call? The fear in his voice, the. The urgency of. Of the situation, the seriousness of what was going on.

[Host/Interviewer]

Had you ever heard Eric sound like that before?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

The only other times I heard that

[Host/Interviewer]

urgency and that fear when he called me telling me that his mother was.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Had passed away in. In the hospital.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And then after he got sick from eating this packed lunch, Eric would later joke to the people around him that Corey was trying to kill him. And the people he said that to at the time sort of just laughed it off as a joke, you know?

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. I mean, you know, Jonathan, there's, like, research on this, the way these, like, dark jokes land, depending on the gender of the person who's telling them. Right. So, like, yeah, when a man says something like, oh, my wife's trying to kill me. Right. It's taken less seriously than when a woman might say that to her peers. Right, Right. So I can't help but think, you know, you know, here's Eric saying, you know, the writings are on the wall here. Help.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Cooper Maul]

And it fell on deaf ears because he just seemed like just any other guy who's kind of just jocular about his wife. Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really interesting point.

[Cooper Maul]

And then just two weeks after this Valentine's Day.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Cooper Maul]

Is when he's found dead. So take me back to that night.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So that night, Corey brought a Moscow Mule cocktail for each of them to the bedroom. She told Eric they were celebrating a real estate closing. This was like, the early hours of March 4, when his body was, of course, found and he was dead. And in the immediate aftermath, Corey does call 911.

[Cooper Maul]

Okay, I can breathe.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, my God. I couldn't breathe.

[Cooper Maul]

I just talked to him, like, a couple hours ago. He just woke up and he wasn't breathing. I went to dinner.

[Annie Elise]

I went. Nightmares. So I went back to her room, And I just turned over to cuddle in body, which is so cold.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Detective Jamie Woody of the Summit County Sheriff's Office responded to the scene. And according to Corey's account to police, the couple went to bed at around 9pm and around 9:30 she got up to comfort. One of their sons was having a nightmare. She stayed in bed with him until about 3. She went back into the bed at 3 in the morning and that's when she found him. Stiff, ghost white and not breathing. Eric's sister Amy arrived at the home and immediately told Detective Woody that Eric had warned the family that Corey might try to kill him.

[Cooper Maul]

That would certainly make my ears perk up as an investigator.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But then despite that, the detective observed no obvious signs of foul play because of the fentanyl overdose. Right. No drugs were visible in the home or in vehic. There was nothing stashed in trash cans that had been emptied by the housekeeper. The case was just classified as a non suspicious death at first. Then two days after Eric died, Corey hires a locksmith to drill into the family safe in the house. Eric's sister Amy arrived at the house at this time. She had something that she needed Corey to hear, which was Eric had changed his estate plan. That revocable trust with the masonry business inside of it now named Katie as the trustee, not Corey. And the cash in the safe was no longer legally hers.

[Cooper Maul]

Right. But Corey did not like that.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

According to witness testimony, Corey became enraged. She punched Amy in the neck and on the face.

[Cooper Maul]

So the day that she found out she wasn't getting this inheritance, she also commits assault.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes, exactly. But despite being cut out of this estate, she collected almost $1.3 million in life insurance payouts within the month of Eric's death from policies that she had opened up secretly over the years, naming herself as the sole beneficiary.

[Cooper Maul]

So Jonathan, there's a version of this story that someone could interpret that she had been prepping this for quite a long time.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And she's also very chaotic in terms of like her business and other dealings, like who knows what other messiness. It's like we're zeroing in on the life insurance and all of that. There's, it's, at this point it still feels like, huh, there's really something going on here. But I think the argument is like, how sure are we of that reality? In January of 2022, she had also allegedly forged Eric's signature on an application for an additional hundred thousand dollar policy that went into effect 10 days before the Valentine's Day attempt.

[Cooper Maul]

So what did she actually do with all this money that she was collecting?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Oh, she's got a lot of creditors, right? Yep, yep. And so most of that money went straight to them. But some of it Went elsewhere. Corey signed closing papers on a $2.9 million mansion in Midway, Utah, on March 4.

[Cooper Maul]

That's the very day that Eric died.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. And they were supposed to be celebrating a real estate deal, so.

[Cooper Maul]

Closing papers, though.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Cooper Maul]

That, to me, insinuates that she had been making moves on this purchase far before even Eric died. She knew she'd be inheriting money.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. Even if you buy a house in cash, right out the gate, close on it, you don't get closing papers that same day. That's Just. Doesn't. That does not happen. That's not the way it works.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. Awfully implicating.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. So on top of all this, the purchase wasn't exactly the smartest move, according to records, because, I mean, that shouldn't surprise anybody at this point, but the property required an additional $3 million in renov. So she was really, like, swinging for the fences with this one.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There's, you know, information that we later received text messages and correspondences. She apparently had said, quote, it's definitely out of my league, but the margins are so insane that I had to pick it up and figure it out.

[Annie Elise]

Ha ha.

[Host/Interviewer]

Help.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

This was a note that she sent to investors asking her. Asking them to fund her Midway mansion renovation.

[Cooper Maul]

Just shows how impulsive her decision making is.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, she seems so. Maybe this was sort of a casual way that she talked with people, but clearly pretty flippant about the whole thing. She didn't have the cash, so the week after she acquired it, she tried to sell it. She just flipped it or attempted to. No offers. So it foreclosed within three months of collecting 1.3 million from Eric's life insurance policies. Records show she had about 800 bucks.

[Cooper Maul]

So she burned through the entire payout.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, in about six months, it was essentially gone.

[Cooper Maul]

So we're investigators on any of the suspicious activity you're trying to be.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But after the tox screen comes back, the official investigation's kind of, like, stalled out. Months go by without a big break.

[Cooper Maul]

So how does this finally get traction to become the case we all know it to be now?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. So the sheriff's office isn't what cracks this case open. It's actually Eric's family.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, like we said, it's always the family.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It really is. So through their real estate attorney, they hire a person PI A guy named Todd Gabler, to sort of help them figure out the mess of Eric's money. And on its face, Todd's job is, like, civil. It's not a criminal job. Right. He's supposed to help them with the property and the real estate disputes with Corey. But in reality, he's the one who builds this homicide case quietly. Right. He's been a PI for 34 years. He's worked close to a hundred homicide cases in that time. And over the next two years, he kind of does this slow, deliberate, obsessive work that cops don't always have the bandwidth for. He records 40 to 50 interviews. He pulls Eric and Corey's phone billing records, and when he lays those calls and texts out on a timeline, one number will not stop popping up. Besides Eric and Corey's mom, no one contacts Corey more than a line tied to their housekeeper, Carmen Lauber, a convicted felon with a history of drug distribution.

[Cooper Maul]

Okay, so I'm assuming that Todd starts seeing Carmen not as some, you know, just background noise, but a critical key to this case.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. So he goes back to the Richins house on multiple occasions. He finds things deputies missed and calls the sheriff's office back out with warrants. He even messages investigators about when to talk to Carmen, warning them she's on the ropes in drug court and would be compliant if they move quickly. He's really quite the consultant here. In April of 2023, Summit county deputies search the housekeeper's home. They find drugs and a firearm, and she's arrested at that time.

[Cooper Maul]

So suddenly, Carmen is kind of the first person in this tale staring down some serious prison time. Potentially, yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She faces those charges, she cuts a deal. She'll cooperate with prosecutors in exchange for immunity from the U.S. attorney's office. Wouldn't we all?

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. I would not pass that up.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She sure doesn't. And she spills. So, in early February, 2022, Corey first comes to her saying she needs pain pills for an investor and pays her about 600 bucks. Days before Valentine's Day, Corey comes back and says she needs something stronger. Carmen goes to her dealer, buys roughly 20 fentanyl pills for a thousand dollars, and hands them over.

[Cooper Maul]

So that explains why Eric got so sick on Valentine's Day.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Correct. After the Valentine's Day incident, when Eric got violently ill, Corey tells Carmen those pills weren't strong enough and pays another thousand dollars for a second, more potent batch.

[Cooper Maul]

So the original plan was supposed to go off on Valentine's Day.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's dark, isn't it?

[Cooper Maul]

And so, clearly, that didn't work out. So she upgrades.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. And then after Eric's death, Carmen calls Corey and asks the obvious question, which is, did these pills have anything to do with what happened? And according to Carmen, Corey tells her no, that Eric died of a brain aneurysm.

[Cooper Maul]

So, I mean, that's the same thing she told everybody else. So with the help of the PI And Carmen's testimony, this case is, like, finally coming together.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes.

[Cooper Maul]

What else does the PI Dig up?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Well, he finds GPS records and cell phone data corroborating Carmen's account of every pill purchase. Investigators recovered deleted data from both Corey and Carmen's phones, and they examined the financial records, insurance documents, the Internet search history. Apparently, after Eric's death, Corey had searched women, Utah prison. I guess she was just trying to see what her future home might be.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, yeah, it's like.

[Annie Elise]

It's.

[Cooper Maul]

It's like part of her new. The consequences she could potentially face.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. Or quote another one. This is great. Can cops force you to do a lie detector test?

[Cooper Maul]

The Internet is forever, people.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And then just, you know, a little spitballing here. What is a lethal dose of fentanyl? I mean, seriously, like, you didn't think this would come back?

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Oh, okay. And then there's one more days after Eric's death, Corey's longtime lover Josh, testified she'd asked him if he had ever killed anyone and how it felt.

[Cooper Maul]

If someone I was dating asked me that, I'd be really freaked out.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, that sounds like a red flag right there. If Corey hoped she and Josh would marry after her husband was out of the picture, that didn't happen. I mean, Josh, I seen. Yeah. Literally, months after Eric's death, their relationship was done. Okay, so this is sort of a side note in the. In the case, and we'll share this on our Patreon, if you guys want to come over and talk about it with us. But apparently, investigators surfaced this detail that really didn't make it into the jury's deliberation in this case, but it cast a long shadow over it. Corey's mother, Lisa Darden, had been investigated in 2006 after her own romantic partner died unexpectedly of an overdose while living with Darden. So no charges, to be clear, were ever filed in this case. But prosecutors didn't present this evidence, you know, in part because the judge ruled on what was admissible. And this was not seen as within that purview. But for investigators who are, like, building this initial portrait of Corey Richens, the parallel was kind of impossible to ignore.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, there's kind of the like mother, like daughter, or the apple doesn't fall far.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There's some questions there. I'd be curious what you all think, but investigators do at this point, Have a motive. A fentanyl supply chain, records of it, phone records, GPS data. Private investigator who essentially built this case for them. But Corey Richards is about to hand them something they did not expect.

[Cooper Maul]

What they did to your family. You're lucky to make it out alive.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Streaming on Peacock.

[Annie Elise]

These men are going to come after me. Taking them out. It's my only chance.

[Host/Interviewer]

Put a bullet in her head from the co Creator of Ozark.

[Cooper Maul]

Looks like a family was running drugs Execution style. Killing.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's rare for the Keys. Any leads on who they might have been running for?

[Annie Elise]

The cartel killed my family.

[Cooper Maul]

I'm gonna kill them.

[Annie Elise]

All of them.

[Host/Interviewer]

Mia. Streaming now only on Peacock.

[Annie Elise]

Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception and it won't impact your future fertility. That's freedom to be views as directed.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Coming up, an arrest and trial that had America asking, how did Corey Richards think she was going to get away with this?

[Cooper Maul]

So we now know how Eric died via Carmen. We know how the Valentine's Day attempt all shook out and who Corey got this fentanyl from. The financial fraud, the affair. And now investigators have spent, you know, quite a while now building a case. So how does this finally come apart for her?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Strangely, to say the least, on March 7, 2023, exactly one year and three days after Eric died, Corey Richards published a book. This is the most unfathomable part of this entire story. It was called are you with me? It's a children's picture book about a child coping with the loss of their father.

[Cooper Maul]

So she's like, capitalizing off of this death.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She promotes it on local tv. She talked about healing, about writing it for her boys. She said it, quote, brought a little peace to me and to my boys.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, I mean, the timing of all of this, I mean, well, being under investigation, whether that was known to her or not for killing their father is, you know.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. I mean, the mainstream narrative about are you with me? Treated it as this macabre irony, right, that like the grieving wife publishes the grief book and it turns out that she isn't grieving at all. And prosecutors revealed something, though, that Corey had used a ghostwriter. The book was not really her own emotional Processing it was a product, a deliberate image shaping. And I didn't realize that at first. Like, whoa, okay, so she was building a public Persona as the heartbroken mother

[Cooper Maul]

to, like, stir up empathy, to get

[Jonathan Hirsch]

people to feel sympathy towards her and to shape a version of events. So six weeks after that TV appearance, on May 8, 2023, she's arrested for Eric's murder. She's booked into Summit county jail and held without bail. In June 23, the attorneys asked the judge to let her out while she awaits. The court says no, pointing to the strength of the evidence. But from that point on, Corey is sitting in jail awaiting trial. Her sons end up with Eric's family.

[Cooper Maul]

And what are the charges they ultimately bring?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, they sort of come in these waves, Right? There's aggravated murder, drug possession, fraud, attempted aggravated murder for the Valentine's day sandwich. The 26 additional financial crimes. Mortgage fraud, money laundering, forgery, RICO. The book.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But before we even get to that trial, Cooper, something happened while she was in jail that made the case against her even stronger.

[Cooper Maul]

She just cannot help herself.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's just a comedy of errors. Right. So, In September of 2023, Summit county deputies seized a letter from the jail cell. Prosecutors call it the walk the dog letter. It was addressed to her mother, and according to prosecutors, it was a script, a detailed set of instructions for what false testimony they should give a trial.

[Cooper Maul]

So she was, like, writing a witness tampering manual from inside of her jail cell.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Allow me to present you with a guide to how to get me out of the situation by lying.

[Cooper Maul]

What was she thinking?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Oh, that is the question of the day. The defense argued that it was part of a fictional book that she was writing, that these were just thoughts on a page, and they never really went anywhere or just, you know, brainstorming a few lies here and there. The judge ultimately ruled portions of admissible. And so in week three of the trial, it was read aloud in court. This is from the. The trial transcripts. The letter reportedly included specific language about what witnesses should say about Eric's drug use, framing him as someone who had concealed an addiction to support the defense theory that he overdosed accidentally.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, this amount of drama from the jump has me so eager to hear what else went down in this trial.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It's a wild case which we've all, I think, following very closely. The murder trial opens in late February of this year, 2026, in Summit County. It runs for about three weeks. The prosecution builds an entirely circumstantial case. Right. So after all there's no one who saw Corey put the fentanyl in Eric's drink. The fentanyl pills were recovered from the house instead. They argue that Corey had the motive, means, and what lawyers call, quote, consciousness of guilt. It's one of my favorite terms because it's this aura that we sometimes try to capture in a case where the evidence doesn't always stack up against it. And I think that's what makes this case so fascinating, too. We were talking about it earlier on. It's like, okay, this is so. It seems to the. To the layman, it's so obviously that this person is behind this, but at the same time, it is, when it comes down to the evidence, a very tricky line that you're walking there when you're building a case against someone like this. So the prosecution's witness list reads like a complete dismantling of every story that Corey has ever told.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. Who were like players.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. So Carmen Lauber, the housekeeper, she of course, testifies.

[Host/Interviewer]

Did Corey Richards ever ask you to

[Jonathan Hirsch]

purchase for her, listen to drugs?

[Cooper Maul]

Yes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

How many times? 4. Did you purchase illicit drugs for her? Yes. How many times? 4. Robert Josh Grossman, the Secret Lover.

[Host/Interviewer]

Did she ask you a question about killing? She did ask me if I.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

If? Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

What, sir? What, sir? Did she ask.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She asked if.

[Host/Interviewer]

If I had ever killed anybody. And was that specific. To killed anybody while serving in Iraq. Right. Did you respond? I did. Did she ask a follow up question? Yes, sir. What was that follow up question to? She asked me how it made me feel. Or something along those lines.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

That's especially emotional testimony. And then there's this forensic accountant who sort of charts the overdrafts, the hard money loans, and testifies that Cory's business is imploding and that her net worth is like a negative 1.6 million the day after Eric's death.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. The perpetual hold, if you will.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And then there's the estate attorney who's sort of explaining the trust, the prenup and all the stuff there. The detective in the case, Jamie Woody, the original scene he's describing and the warning that he got from Amy and sort of all the stuff that led up to the later building of the case. And then there's the tireless private investigator, Todd Gabler, who takes the stand as the man who essentially built this case. He testifies about the phone records, the interviews, the decision to zero in on Carmen, the trips back to the house, and the tip about her being sort of on the ropes in drug court and compliant if she Was approached at the right time. The defense tries to flip him from an asset to a liability. They point out that he went into Richen's home without police supervision, that he literally cracked open a safe with his bare hands and texted deputies suggesting when to hit up Carmen. Like that's not professional behavior.

[Cooper Maul]

Yes. According to the defense, painting him as this kind of rogue PI who's skirting around what cops can legally do.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah. This wasn't legitimate then.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

They're trying to get it thrown out. So the defense argued that the state couldn't definitively prove how the fentanyl got into Eric's system. They pointed to Lyme disease, prescription painkillers, contaminated weed gummies from a hunting trip in Mexico. Who knows?

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, this. This kind of makes me think of our mountain man episode. Right. You can't, like, definitively prove.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Cooper Maul]

The chain of evidence here.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It becomes tricky. Yeah. This is the biggest hole in the prosecution's case. Right. That they hammered it repeatedly. There were no fentanyl pills from the alleged supply chain that were ever recovered or tested. The person, the housekeeper Carmen identified as her supp. Recanted before trial. And then the entire case for how the fentanyl got from a dealer to Eric Richen's Moscow mule rested entirely on this maid's testimony. Lauber herself was also not the subjective witness. They saying, you know, that she had potential exposure in the case and was cooperating with prosecutors to protect herself.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. And, you know, she had negotiated this deal with them. She's probably, like, learning information about the case as she goes.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right? Yeah. And all of this. This information that corroborated she was in coordination with Corey. Who's to say that this actually proves that a transaction was made between the two of them?

[Cooper Maul]

Those are fair points.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah, they are. So the defense attorneys, Kathy Nestor and Wendy Lewis, they didn't call a single witness. They did not put Corey on the stand.

[Cooper Maul]

Smarge.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

On March 16, just a little while ago, from when we're recording this, the jury was sent away to deliberate, and they returned in just over three hours.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah, that is not a good sign.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And it is precisely what you'd expect in that situation. Guilty on all five counts. Aggravated murder, attempted aggravated murder, two counts of insurance fraud, forgery. And you, for those of us who watch, you can see Corey lowering her head as the verdict was read.

[Host/Interviewer]

We, the jury, unanimously agree that the prosecution has proved the following circumstance or circumstances regarding count one, beyond reasonable doubt. The homicide was committed for pecuniary gain, and the homicide was committed by means of the administration of any substance administered in a lethal amount, dosage or quantity.

[Cooper Maul]

Finally, all caught up to her.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Eric's estate also filed a civil lawsuit against Corey, which is to be expected. $13 million across 18 claims, including wrongful death, theft, misappropriation, and misuse of Eric's likeness in the grief book. This might also end up in the Guinness Book alongside her 236 transactions or whatever that was. So local attorneys have already said that the decision will be second guessed. 100. There are some issues with this verdict. So, you know, this is a live issue. There are also some potential grounds around that evidentiary battle around the Walk the Dog letter and the conduct of the prosecutors around the allegation that the defense had raised before the trial.

[Cooper Maul]

I see a lot of grounds for appeals here.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

There's something here. This may not be the end of it. It definitely won't be the end of it. Either way. The financial crimes case was filed two days before some of these statute of limitations were about to expire.

[Cooper Maul]

Are we going to see Cory in court again?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

We are. The sentencing is forthcoming and we're definitely going to update you all on what we hear.

[Cooper Maul]

So we could potentially see Corey in court again for a whole host of other charges.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yes. That sentencing hearing is supposed to happen today. So we're going to come back to you guys with a very special guest on the show to respond to the sentencing once we have more information. So. So stay tuned for that. Whatever the outcome is, Corey faces 25 to life. Life without the possibility of parole, of course, on the aggravated murder count. I mean, obviously with this case, the thing that really captured people's attention, in addition to the fact that this very wholesome looking family on the outside was falling apart underneath the surface. But then of course, the fact that this book about grief was written for children, when in fact, it appears as

[Cooper Maul]

though it was all a calculated cover. Right?

[Jonathan Hirsch]

It was a calculated cover for a grief that she herself may have authored.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah. What haunts me about this case, Jonathan, is that I think in his heart of hearts, like Eric knew, right, he had expressed to his family, to his friends that he believed his wife was. Was capable of doing something like this.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right? Yeah.

[Cooper Maul]

I mean, he even joked out loud that Corey could be somebody capable of

[Jonathan Hirsch]

killing him and warned his family that something like this might happen.

[Cooper Maul]

And he did everything he could or was doing everything he. Or was doing everything to protect himself legally. And it just wasn't enough.

[Host/Interviewer]

And yet here we are.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And you know, I think there's a question for all of us to discuss and think about, which is, does this case hold enough water? Because we're pulling together what appears to be a really powerful case against Cory for all the ways in which she carefully applauded.

[Cooper Maul]

Yet a lot of this hasn't been physically proven.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

She didn't. There's no evidence of her picking up the illicit substance and placing it inside his drink. But would there ever be? It is one of those cases that can really keep you up at night because you just can't come to the kind of definitive conclusion that gives you solace that this case will hold up. I think that there's more to be said about this in the future.

[Cooper Maul]

Definitely. And I think it's part of what's captivated so many people and why we

[Jonathan Hirsch]

keep talking about it. So let's keep talking about it. You guys know where to find us. You can join us on Patreon. If you go to getthebinge.com, you can get access to all of the binge shows in our catalog. But you can also join us in conversation about this very case.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hey, guys, we're back here on Crime Scene.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Wow.

[Host/Interviewer]

What a day. Yesterday in the Corey Richards trial. Most of you will have seen the story that we just did on the Corey Richards case and the sentencing hearing happened yesterday. And I just knew that there was

[Jonathan Hirsch]

so much more that we had to

[Host/Interviewer]

get into after all the theatrics in the courtroom. So I am here in beautiful Long Beach, California, to talk with none other than Annie Elise from serial less, Li and 10 to life about everything that happened in the courtroom yesterday. My God, my head is just spinning.

[Annie Elise]

I don't know. It was a very busy day. Thank you so much for having me because I have a lot of thoughts, and I have to say, you're the only person who is able to say serial lessly the first try. So thank you for that.

[Host/Interviewer]

I had to practice it the whole way everywhere.

[Annie Elise]

No, I appreciate it because in hindsight, it was probably the worst possible name I could have chosen. Chosen. So I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer]

But it takes a little practice to say three times.

[Cooper Maul]

It does, it does.

[Annie Elise]

It does.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, I'm so glad that you're here. I've been so excited to talk with you about this story. And obviously, you've been following this case for years.

[Annie Elise]

Years, yes. We started following this case when it first happened all the way through, you know, the original arrest, as everything was coming out, the discovery, following it through the trial, and it has just been wild old.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, well, let's get into it. I mean really from the top yesterday, the sentencing hearing.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Designed primarily for victims to provide impact statements for the court to sort of evaluate whether or not the sentencing that they hand down is reflective of the charges. And of course there is sort of a human element to that because all the family members are able to come forward, the victim's family, and say their piece. And as is the defendant who is, is now convicted of the, of the crime. Corey Richards.

[Annie Elise]

I personally think that the sentence was 100% accurate. I mean life without parole, there's no other way in my mind there was no other option on the table unless it ended up being a DP case to me. Like there is no other option to get her out there in less time than that. Because what she did, how she capitalized on the death, how she was after money, the financial game, what she put her boys through, there would have been, in my opinion, no true accountability if it was a 25 year old type sentence. No way.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I, I thought it was really interesting that the judge sort of played this out from the point of view of the, of her children. Right here are these three underage boys who are bearing witness to this awful sequence of events. Their father dies tragically. They find out that their father was

[Annie Elise]

murdered in their home while they slept. And being part, used as part of like the alibi and the COVID story even, it is so disturbing when you think about that, that not only could your own mother be capable of murder, but murdering your own father under the roof where you all live as a family, where you have happy childhood memories, sit lying, saying she's in bed with one of you and then just feeling the level of betrayal and deceit. How do you even begin to reconcile that as a young child?

[Host/Interviewer]

And, and they are old enough to know absolutely what's going on. So I think there was some question for a while, you know, were they, how aware were they of what the criminal proceedings were? But what happened in the courtroom yesterday really made it clear.

[Annie Elise]

They're absolutely aware. They're hyper aware even, I guess you could argue because while yeah, they are young and they're underage and their ages range from when the, at the time when this happened, I believe seven or eight years old, upwards of 10 years old again to your point, old enough to know what's happening, to have hold and have memories where usually people don't have a lot of memories before, you know, five or four year old, four years old, having the memories of this and understanding the severity of it of Course too, as they're getting older and they're hearing more information, they're exposed with other family members. And to your point, I think that's evident in the statements that we heard from the boys.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. And some of the things that the boys said really were like so shocking. I mean, in terms of, of how clear it was to them what had actually gone down.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I mean, they obviously didn't want to

[Host/Interviewer]

have anything to do.

[Annie Elise]

No.

[Host/Interviewer]

With their mother ever again. The oldest one said, I'm afraid if she gets out, she will come after me and my brothers and my whole family. A 13 year old boy is afraid of his own mother.

[Annie Elise]

It's heartbreaking because that is the thing that stuck with me the most when I went through all of their statements individually. There is such a fear in all three of those boys, some even younger than that, where they're terrified of their mom. They're fearful that if she's ever released, she'll hurt them or harm them. They don't trust them. And a child, 12, 13, whatever age it is, should never have that feeling, especially about someone who is supposed to be the trusted individual who takes care of them and nurtures them and loves them. There's no mother, there's no love like a mother's love. Right. But so it's like, like how do you even grapple with that?

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. And, and, and it sort of make. When you say that, it makes me think about what the judge had to, what the court had to decide on yesterday. And when they're sort of saying, will these boys who will eventually be men, look back at this, at the court's decision and resent them? And the truth of the matter is it could go either way. And that's what the judge was sort of saying, that there's a scenario in which life without the possibility of parole is seen as an unfair intervention by the court on a decision that an adult son of this woman would want to have, or if it's life with the possibility of parole. Did the court just decide on their behalf that the person who killed their father will be allowed to be back on the streets when they're in their middle ages?

[Annie Elise]

I mean, their statements to me seem so firm that I can't imagine they would waver. But to your point, they're young, you grow, you learn, you start reconsidering things and your eyes are opened more as you of course, get older and you mature and you realize things aren't always as black in black and white as you hope. And so it will be interesting and that's going to be a tough decision for them as they get older.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, obviously the court was in Team Annie here.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

They decided life without the possibility of.

[Annie Elise]

Lock her up.

[Host/Interviewer]

Up.

[Annie Elise]

Lock her up.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, God. I mean, maybe we could talk a little bit about Corey's.

[Annie Elise]

Can we not talk about Cory? No, I'm just kidding.

[Host/Interviewer]

I. I will say. Okay, here's one thing. The. For people who are not so keyed into this case as you and I are, and as all of you are who are watching and listening to this, presumably you encounter Corey Richen's 40 minute statement yesterday and you. It. There's something quite theatrical. Yes.

[Cooper Maul]

Performative.

[Host/Interviewer]

Perfect word for it. Yes.

[Annie Elise]

And inauthentic.

[Host/Interviewer]

I can keep going, but maybe even

[Annie Elise]

compelling to some, to some, to some who are unfamiliar with the nuts and bolts of the case.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Annie Elise]

I think anyone who truly knows the deception, her plots, everything that she had done along the way, I don't know that it's that compelling, but I now that that is the statement that is going viral all over social media. I do think that there are people who would see that and feel for her and couldn't help but feel for her.

[Host/Interviewer]

So for those who haven't heard this piece of it, basically, when it was Corey Richen's opportunity to go before the court and the national. The country, as this was like nationally televised wire to wire streamed everywhere, instead of addressing the court for leniency, for understanding, instead of remarking on her culpability or lack thereof, she almost turned her back to the court and addressed her children directly, whom she said she had no opportunity to reach. As though that wasn't exactly what would happen when you were indicted for murder. Yeah, first of all. But nevertheless, she's saying, I haven't been able to reach you guys. This message is for you because it's the only place I can give this message to you. Which, you know, from another point of view is a very clever way of positioning her sort of final statements before an appeal that she inevitably will make.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

And she's walking through all the ways in which she wishes she would have had access to her boys over the years and through this trial, and then almost like giving them an inspirational speech about their future, which included talking about, you know, their dad and hoping that

[Jonathan Hirsch]

they will be like him and going

[Host/Interviewer]

onto the top of mountains and feeling

[Annie Elise]

the souls of their ancestors when it was quite. If I could roll my eyes any harder, I would be looking at my brain right now. Okay. Because this is unbelievable. I think it was performative Yeah. I think that she didn't address the court and turned her back because she likes to control the narrative. She likes to seem like the martyr in all things. And I think it was highly manipulative. That's my opinion. Based on the boy's statements and how they express their fear and their distrust. I think that it was in a way for her to. It was done in a way to manipulate the boys to get back in their good graces, to hope that that would elicit some sort of sympathy going forward. Especially because like you said, we know an appeal is coming and the only people that she has who she has a shot at communicating with or having any sort of relationship with would arguably be her boys.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

So I think that this was more about saving her own skin and her own well being and just, you know, her life going forward and what she wants in her life rather than actually trying to appeal to the boys and apologize or not apologize, because she obviously didn't. She still took no accountability. But I don't think it was done in an effort to be a good mother and leave them with these words of wisdom. I think at one point she says, I could never harm another person. I was not put on this earth to kill someone and never admit to anything you didn't do. Just again, still trying to go out as this martyr of a mother.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

Which I see you, Corey. I see you.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's definitely. It's clear that she was positioning for a future conversation.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

So maybe we could talk a little bit about that.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Right.

[Host/Interviewer]

Because clearly there have been. There have been quite a few whisperings about the appeal before there was even a conviction because it did seem like it was barreling in that direction. You know, the attorneys have telegraphed that this verdict will be challenged. We could talk a little bit about that. Right. There's the prosecutorial conduct.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

That was in question. Some questions about the way in which

[Jonathan Hirsch]

the case was prosecuted.

[Host/Interviewer]

The circumstantial nature of the.

[Annie Elise]

What they have.

[Host/Interviewer]

What they have.

[Annie Elise]

They never found the pills that were allegedly buried and that there was. Yeah. Room for reasonable doubt, I guess you could argue.

[Host/Interviewer]

And she inserted that part about. In. In her state. Corey. Corey Richards inserts in. In her sort of monologue. Yeah, that's a great word.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. Not a tame. At her monologue.

[Host/Interviewer]

It really did feel. I mean it. Clearly the boys were probably not listening. Yeah. For my part, I hope they weren't because they're so young and I can't.

[Annie Elise]

They are impressionable, I would imagine. And yeah, you don't Want to confuse them even further. They're victims in all of this, through and through. Arguably equally sized victim to Eric himself. So it's like you don't want to add more turmoil and confusion. And obviously I've never been in a position like Corey, thank God. But I would have to imagine, I have two young kids myself, that if I were given the opportunity to address them or speak with them, I wouldn't want to do anything that would further contribute to any sort of mental anguish or confusion or put them in any sort of state of just like unknown and being distraught.

[Host/Interviewer]

And you think about the things that they learned yesterday.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Watching that statement, it's all of the things you just described there. Right. Maybe my mom didn't do this and I have to live with the fact that she's going to be spending the rest of her life in prison. Maybe this is. There's some darker, more complicated issue that my dad was going through that compelled him to self medicate. She applied as much.

[Annie Elise]

Should I say this? Like, what my statement I made, did that hurt my mom's feelings? Am I bad for saying that and being so firm? Because they're now walking it back. I mean, a lot of things. And you brought something up that was interesting, too, in her statement, how she had said, this is my first time to really address you and talk with you guys. And here's not like her version, but her statement. Thank God, because we saw what she did with the walk the dog letter where she already tried to tamper with witnesses, intimidate witnesses and recraft the narrative. If she did have access to those boys, who's to say what she would have planted in their ear and how much further damage she could have caused?

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. Yeah. It is such a tragedy for those kids. And I just keep coming back to that judge, thinking about their lives and their trajectory and, and, and, and, and I think what a, an excellent job he did of framing the discussion for the public.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, as well as for the court. And of course, this is not the

[Jonathan Hirsch]

end of the road.

[Host/Interviewer]

Even with the appeals.

[Annie Elise]

No.

[Host/Interviewer]

For Corey, there is so much more coming.

[Annie Elise]

You know, a book coming out of prison. You know, she's going to want to be on the datelines, the 2020. She's going to do it. She's going to pedal her story as far and wide as she can.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Wherever she ends up, it's going to be a very, very busy, busy back

[Annie Elise]

and kind of gives Jodi Arias vibes a little bit. I don't know. Just like the Narcissism and wanting to be the little, like, meek victim in all of it. I don't know.

[Host/Interviewer]

And you have to wonder, too, if you're stripped of all these other rights because you get caught in. In a scenario like this, what your priorities become. There's a part of me that was watching that performance. Yeah, performance yesterday and thinking, wow. I mean, if you know that there's no way out of this, what do you do? If this is truly a purely craven. I mean, some people, in a weird way, begin to believe their own lies.

[Annie Elise]

Absolutely.

[Host/Interviewer]

I've definitely reported on stories where I've been astonished by what people have been willing to believe about their own actions when they have no other choice, really delude themselves into believing that maybe they didn't do this. Or, you know, I don't know if you saw Should I Marry a Murderer?

[Annie Elise]

On. Oh my God, we have to have a separate podcast. I have so many thoughts. I kind of went down the rabbit hole and I went off on a tangent this week, actually on one of my episodes, because I was like losing my mind. I told all my listeners, well, you have homework. You have to watch this. I have so many thoughts. But yes, where you get backed into a corner in your own brain and you start justifying things or. Yeah, excuses. And.

[Host/Interviewer]

And in the case of that story, this was somebody who finds out that their partner is a. Or their fiance is a murderer and they, for a while there, as part of the investigation, this individual, without sort of giving away too much, begin to believe, sort of have to perform, that they believe this person is unfairly prosecuted,

[Annie Elise]

that there's a reason behind it, that young and bad mistakes, just ways to justify it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. And then living in that lie almost because there was no other way out.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I wonder too, a little bit about Corey in that regard.

[Host/Interviewer]

Like, we'll never know. But if there are no other options on the table, this is quite the narrative that you could spin and maybe

[Jonathan Hirsch]

even begin to believe yourself.

[Annie Elise]

But you know what? I don't know if it's even that she's run out of options now and so she's forced to believe it because even before, when she wrote the children's book about how to process grief, she's already leaning into that hard. And yeah, they were all grieving, of course, so that could be argued whether it was murder, self inflicted, whatever it may be, but still, it's like she's already leaning into this version of who she wants to present as.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

And it's just, to me, very inauthentic. And just like, she's gross. I don't like it.

[Host/Interviewer]

And such a testament to where we are as a culture when. When entertainment and the criminal justice system collide the way that they.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

They do.

[Host/Interviewer]

And of course, we could go all the way back to the Menendez brothers.

[Annie Elise]

You took the words out of my mouth. Yeah. Yes, he has.

[Host/Interviewer]

A few years back, we did a documentary with Court, Court tv, about the Menendez trial, because it was this sort of seminal moment for them as. As a. As a business in that case, as far as, like, what is happening in. In the world of true crime today.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

But it made me think of that,

[Host/Interviewer]

because my co. EP on the binge. Catherine, when we were preparing for this conversation, we were trying to find a copy of the Corey Richards book. She's like, I couldn't find a copy, but I did find the Goodreads account.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host/Interviewer]

Can I read you some of these, please? They're just 1.71 stars, by the way, to start.

[Annie Elise]

Who's even a one? Come on, guys.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean, there's some in here that are sort of like, you know, like, maybe people gave a five star, but they were more just like five, starring their own passion.

[Cooper Maul]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, so here's some of the. The good ones. This one's from Jonathan. I swear it wasn't.

[Annie Elise]

Come on. Yeah, let me see the username.

[Host/Interviewer]

This book is a killer. It will take your breath away.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

So good.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's simply murder. The author clearly knows all about death on a deeply intimate level.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean, I read through some of these. They should be flagged on Goodreads. I don't know what the flag should be, except someone who murders their husband and writes a book. There should be a flag for that. That file under Oopsie. And then a lot of people sort of just being like, could you please, like, not purchase this book because this is written by a killer. She's an actual murderer. You know, Best book I've read since if I Did it by OJ Central.

[Annie Elise]

That's good. Usually I like to live in the comment section on, like, Instagram or Tik Tok. I don't even care about the video. The comment section is what gets me. Maybe I need to start looking at Goodreads. I feel like that's where it's at.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I was definitely running to the comments after that one. Okay, so we talked about the appeals, and, yes, a little bit about this. You know, there is a civil suit coming. Eric's estate has filed a $13 million suit. Across 18 claims, including. And this one most interestingly and kind of in this whole territory of like, where Corey Richards sits in our culture and where our culture is when it comes to these kinds of stories, which I know you and I are sort of respectively, always sort of navigating and telling these kinds of stories, which is, you know, they're also, you know, there's. There's a suit that claims misappropriation of his likeness in her grief book.

[Annie Elise]

Yes, I love this for her. Yes, I love this for Corey. Only because I believe that the majority of the motive was rooted in financial gain, whether from the houses that they were flipping, all of that just so much then the book to capitalize on the death. And I just feel like what better way to stick it to someone aside from life in prison with no parole? Also, you did all this because you were after money and now we're coming after you. Not that you have much, but like.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

Come on. Like, it's just. It's kind of like, I don't know, a serendipitous type situation. Just like the sentencing or. Sorry, the. Yeah. On Eric's 44th birthday.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, yes, yes, of course. I mean. Yeah.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And.

[Host/Interviewer]

And for those who, who didn't real or weren't aware of this, but the, the. The sentencing date was originally agreed to a couple of months before the actual date went down or the, the. The date of the sentencing and at the time, I guess Corey's attorneys maybe didn't contemplate this. She didn't really put.

[Annie Elise]

She didn't remember his. Eric's birthday, you mean? Yeah, it wasn't a core memory for her of like a date she remembered in her head. I wonder why.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's definitely not a priority for her. Yeah, hasn't been that for a long time.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And the sentencing falls on his birthday, which. Talk about poetic justice.

[Annie Elise]

I love, love, love when things like that happen and when dates line up. There's a current. Well, not current anymore. A few months ago there was a trial going on in Hawaii. I don't know if you heard about Gerhardt, He, Konig and Ariel. And he was on trial for attempted murder.

[Host/Interviewer]

This is the hike.

[Annie Elise]

Yes, the hike where he like, tried to throw her and then tried to allegedly inject her. And she ended. They went on this hike for her birthday. And then it was a year later when the trial was happening and she testified against him on her birthday. And I was like, I love the way that, like when there's a full circle moment like that, it gives me chills and I'm like, somebody else is intervening here to make all these puzzle pieces fit together.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

And.

[Host/Interviewer]

And you wonder even if the.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

In.

[Host/Interviewer]

In Summit county, if the, The. The. The court or anybody who was making that decision on the date had any awareness that. Yeah, like, the amount of all days were to fall.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Beautiful. And. And, you know, I think when I think about the. The poetic justice of that, it. It does occur to me that Corey Richens, for all of the twists and turns of this story, seems particularly to those who believe that she is fully culpable for everything that she did, seems to have authored. Authored a quite dramatic and advantageous version of her own story that is entertaining and captivating for people to watch, but is also clearly like eliminating any sort of culpability for whatever what. What has happened. She wrote the book that covered literally her grief or wrote the book that covered up her own culpability in the murder of her husband. And the final judgment, at least for now, in her story, arrived on a day that she wasn't allowed to change.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Which I think is meaningful.

[Annie Elise]

I think it absolutely is meaningful. And she is someone who strikes me. Obviously, I'm not a medical professional, but, yeah, I've covered enough cases to where I would argue she is a narcissist and she will never take accountability for her actions. I think she will try to excuse them away, cover them up, rope other people in, and do whatever she can to deflect. I don't imagine there will ever be a moment in which she will say outright that, you know, what she had done or why or even allude to it. Even if she was exonerated, say, if this was a whole Karen Reed situation and she was found not guilty and there was no repercussions that she could face, I still, I think she'd write another book. I don't think she would ever own up to it because she has this fixation on creating this Persona of herself that she's crafted, and I don't think she will ever move away from that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. And maybe she'll start a podcast.

[Annie Elise]

Maybe she will. Menendez brothers. I think that's going to be next on their list. Whenever that happens.

[Host/Interviewer]

All of them together. Oh, my gosh, there'll be a whole podcast network.

[Annie Elise]

I know.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, so there's the civil suit. There's then the financial crimes, which really is at the heart of what the motive was sort of implied here, that husband find. Her husband finds out that she's, you know, involved in these, In. In really leveraging the family's assets in the. In the purchase of property that she couldn't afford through her own business. She has this affair, and then here we find her husband dead. She is going to stand trial for some very serious financial crimes. They were filed just two days before the statute of limitations expired on this.

[Annie Elise]

Again, we love the dates and the way that all. That all works out. It's beautiful.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. I'm sure in coordination, I'm sure, with the criminal part of this, where they.

[Annie Elise]

They knew that the clock was ticking.

[Host/Interviewer]

Exactly. Right.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And so there's forgery, money laundering, rico.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, I don't think I knew that there were RICO charges in there.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Okay, so this is going to be another opportunity.

[Annie Elise]

Yep.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

For Corey to be in the limelight

[Annie Elise]

again or I think she's going to enjoy it. Kind of like Lori Valo. It's Lori. Val's been had how many trials now? It's an excuse. It's like a little vacation from the jail system to be in court, have a little break, have a recess from the jail time. And so. So it's for her, you know, going to be another moment for her to perform and probably why she gave such a big monologue yesterday, too. Ahead of that, just to play this role and deeper, you know, push that out a little further. I don't know.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, it's. And. And I think the. The fact that I just keep coming back to the. To the. The actual evidence in the criminal trial and how that underpins how we view this case for. For years to come, given the circumstantial nature of that evidence.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's going to be a puzzler, I think, for a long time, you know, because we really don't have the. We don't have that smoking gun that can give people. That would silence the kind of conversation that happened.

[Annie Elise]

Right. Absolutely.

[Host/Interviewer]

In the courtroom.

[Annie Elise]

Absolutely.

[Host/Interviewer]

Like it would never happen if it was right there in front of us. But unfortunately, even though all the evidence was clear in the state, you know, the decision has been made. The court has made their decision. And, you know, I think the people in this room believe they made the right decision.

[Annie Elise]

But there is, to your point, a window cracked for interpretation.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

And do people. Does everybody believe that? And. Certainly not.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. And you know, these future court proceedings will likely provide another avenue as. As you're sort of indicating there, for her to argue her case. One thing that didn't really come up because it wasn't admissible evidence that I'm curious what your take is on is the fact that Corey's own father died, what appeared to be be a peculiar set of circumstances. And none of that has been sort of discussed here. So as we're sort of wrapping it

[Jonathan Hirsch]

up, I'm like, I know. I kind of need to mention that.

[Annie Elise]

No, absolutely. I don't know if. Look, I can get conspiracy every now and again.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

I'll admit it on our tinfoil for a minute. I'm there. All right.

[Annie Elise]

I can't get on board with thinking that there's any like, direct knowledge or correlation or anything like that. But I, I do think that maybe there is room for inspiration that took place or something where it's like you have, you know, the, these thoughts in your mind or like these things that just are kind of buried in the corner of your brain that you don't even know that you're thinking through that. And it just like pops in as a fresh thought, but it's not a fresh thought because it's something maybe you've been exposed to in the past or something like that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

It is very interesting.

[Host/Interviewer]

So you think there was even sort of almost like a, A literary.

[Annie Elise]

Maybe like something like unconscious. Like she just like. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, maybe.

[Annie Elise]

I wouldn't put it past her. She doesn't seem very original.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, well, the, the, the comments on Goodreads would indicate. Not the only one who believes that.

[Annie Elise]

Yes. Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, thank you so much for joining me. This was so fun to chat with you about all of this and appreciate you joining us on Crime Scene. Of course. Everyone who's seeing this who has been living under a rock, please go and watch and listen to Serial Lessly and tend to life and everything that Annie Elise is doing. And we'll catch you guys soon.

[Annie Elise]

Thanks so much.

[Host/Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Hey y', all, thank you so much for joining us on Crime Scene. Just a reminder here, you can watch or listen to us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This show is a production of Sony Podcasts and the Binge. Thank you to everybody who makes this happen week in and week out. Also, we're journalists. We love journalism. These stories have been deeply reported, the ones that you hear on the show. And you can find an extensive bibliography by by going to the show notes of this episode and to every episode to learn more about the reporting that informed all of the great stories you hear on Crime Scene. And just one last note, you can get exclusive content from us and the binge over 60 jaw dropping true crime stories bingeable and ad free right now by signing up for our [e-mail] so go to to getthebinge.com to get access to our entire catalog of stories, but also to get behind the scenes access to all of the stories that Cooper and I are working on. To join us in the conversation about these cases, go to getthebinge.com to learn more.

[Cooper Maul]

Hey campers, it's Jan from Toyota. This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota

[Annie Elise]

and the fun starts now.

[Cooper Maul]

We're kicking things off by kicking, picking up mud. Jump in, campers. We're going off roading in a 4Runner.

[Annie Elise]

Next, we're heading to the hot springs in Arav 4.

[Cooper Maul]

And finally, park your Tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows.

[Host/Interviewer]

Dealer inventory may vary, so you're participating

[Jonathan Hirsch]

Toyota dealer for details and then ends June 1st.

[Host/Interviewer]

Toyota. Let's go. Places.