Podcast Summary

Podcast: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Episode: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan | SHOCKER! Unsolved 1997 Rape/Murder SOLVED! Who Killed Margaret Anselmo
Date: November 23, 2025
Host: Joseph Scott Morgan (with co-host Dave)
Duration (core content): ~02:44–49:16 MM:SS

Overview

This episode of "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" delves into the long-unsolved 1997 rape and murder of Margaret Anselmo in Spokane, Washington—a case finally resolved decades later thanks to advances in DNA forensics and genealogical research. Joseph Scott Morgan and co-host Dave walk listeners through the original crime scene investigation, the emotional toll on the victim's family, and the modern-day detective work that led to identifying the perpetrator, Brian James Anderson, albeit posthumously. The episode highlights the evolution of investigative technology and the broader implications for justice in cold cases.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Voice of the Dead Through Forensic Science

• Opening Reflection (02:44):
  Joseph Scott Morgan introduces the theme of listening to the stories of the dead “by what remains,” tying this into the power of forensic science, particularly DNA, to illuminate the truth long after a victim’s voice has been silenced.
  • Quote:
    “The dead can speak to us…in a way that is actually a bit more scientifically based. They tell their stories through all that's left behind, all that remains, if you will.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 02:44)
• Othram Labs’ Role (04:34):
  Morgan describes Othram Labs as an “instrument in the hand of the Almighty”—a reference to how their work restores peace to families by finally answering agonizing questions.

2. The Case Background: The Murder of Margaret Anselmo

• Victim Profile (05:19):
  Margaret Anselmo, 45, mother of two, floral designer, was killed on January 3, 1997. She was last seen cashing a check; her body was later found in a snowy Spokane alleyway, raped and beaten.
  • Quote:
    “A delivery driver found her body face down in a snowy alley. She had been raped and beaten to death… Her cause of death, one forced trauma to the head. Police believe she was the victim of an apparent random act of violence.” (Dave, 05:19)
• Scene Dynamics (06:55–13:46):
  Discussion about the challenges investigators face with alleyway crime scenes, the fleeting nature of physical evidence (especially in snow), and the importance of meticulously documenting drag marks and other clues.
  • Quote:
    “Drag marks are a real thing… You’re looking for any kind of evidence here.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 11:32)

3. Investigative Challenges: 1997 Techniques vs. Today

• Limitations of 1990s Forensics (22:26–23:13):
  The team used standard protocols for DNA collection, focusing on STR (Short Tandem Repeat) profiling. However, a match in the national database (CODIS) was impossible as the perpetrator’s DNA was not on file.
  • Quote:
    “You can have the DNA all day long, but if they're not in the system, you got nothing to compare it to.” (Dave, 26:56)
• Case Management Issues (26:01–27:44):
  Emphasis on how cold cases are often buried under new cases, despite investigators periodically revisiting Anselmo’s murder.

4. Breakthrough with Modern DNA and Genealogy

• Othram and Genealogy as Game Changer (29:01–30:51):
  The process of submitting the crime scene DNA to Othram for advanced genealogical analysis—building family trees, identifying distant relatives, and gradually zeroing in on the perpetrator.
  • Quote:
    “It’s the other side…where these people are literally trying to fashion family trees…it’s also a huge puzzle.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 29:11)
• Philosophical Ramifications (30:51–32:15):
  Morgan contextualizes this as the end of an era—referencing anonymous graves—since science now allows almost everyone to be identified.
  • Quote:
    “The days of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are going to be passing us by…that’s the power of this technology.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 30:51)

5. Identification of the Suspect

• Crime Solved, Justice Deferred (40:32–42:24):
  DNA evidence ultimately points to Brian James Anderson, 20 at the time of the murder. However, Anderson had died by suicide in 2009.
  • Quote:
    “He was 20 years old when he committed this crime, this murder, this rape, this horrible vicious assault…And after they figured out who he was, found out he was born April 29, 1976 and died by suicide July 8, 2009.” (Dave, 40:32)
  • Spokane Police asserted they could have charged and likely convicted if he were living; supporting evidence matched up once Anderson was identified.

6. Broader Impacts of DNA Technology

• Conviction Certainty and Exoneration (42:34–44:13):
  Morgan explains how DNA not only secures convictions but can also exonerate the wrongly accused, provided proper protocols are followed.
  • Quote:
    “When it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers…the only thing you can fight…is procedurally how was it collected, how was it protected, how was it analyzed.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 42:51)
• Washington State's Use of Othram (44:44–46:28):
  Washington has solved its 41st case with Othram—a testament to the lab’s effectiveness and the potential of public/private funding in clearing cold cases.

7. Role of Public Support & Crowdfunding

• How Listeners Can Help (46:28–47:24):
  Othram is crowdfunded; contributions via dnasolves.com help advance testing in cold cases.
  • Quote:
    “If you want to get involved, you actually can take part in this…it might not be your family…but what if you knew somebody…Never anyone held responsible? You could actually be part of finding that solution for somebody else.” (Dave, 46:28)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I have never talked to the dead…but I will submit to you that the dead can speak to us…through all that's left behind.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 02:44
• “[Othram Labs] are providing information to families…and I gotta tell you, wherever there is peace, I have to think that the Almighty is at work and that’s what they’re delivering to families.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 04:34
• “All these years have gone by…and there was still no match…you can only work so many of these cases.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 23:05
• “The days of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are going to be passing us by…that’s the power of this technology.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 30:51
• “He [the perpetrator] did, in fact, leave a calling card. A calling card that would tell Margaret’s story of horror.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 15:09
• “He was 20 years old when he committed this crime… And after they figured out who he was, found out…he died by suicide July 8, 2009.”
  — Dave, 40:32
• “When it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers…if you follow the recipe…you got a winner on your hands.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 42:51

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Exploring the Victims' Stories: 02:44–05:19
• Crime Scene Challenges & Initial Forensics: 05:19–13:46
• Procedures for Evidence in Snow: 13:46–15:09
• Limitations of the 1997 Investigation: 22:26–27:44
• Breakthrough with DNA & Othram Analysis: 29:01–32:15
• Implications of Breaking Old Cases: 42:34–46:28
• Funding Cold Case Solutions (dnasolves.com): 46:28–47:24
• Resolution of Margaret Anselmo’s Case: 40:32–42:34

Conclusion

This episode is a powerful narrative about the intersection of human tragedy, perseverance in policing, and the transformative potential of DNA technology. Listeners are left with a sense of hope that, even decades after a crime, answers can be found—and with a call to action to support organizations like Othram in bringing closure to families and justice to the unnamed and unidentified.