BODY BAGS WITH JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN| SHOCKER! Unsolved 1997 Rape/Murder SOLVED! Who Killed Margaret Anselmo

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Episode: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan | SHOCKER! Unsolved 1997 Rape/Murder SOLVED! Who Killed Margaret Anselmo
Date: November 23, 2025
Host: Joseph Scott Morgan (with co-host Dave)
Duration (core content): ~02:44–49:16 MM:SS

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Overview

This episode of "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" delves into the long-unsolved 1997 rape and murder of Margaret Anselmo in Spokane, Washington—a case finally resolved decades later thanks to advances in DNA forensics and genealogical research. Joseph Scott Morgan and co-host Dave walk listeners through the original crime scene investigation, the emotional toll on the victim's family, and the modern-day detective work that led to identifying the perpetrator, Brian James Anderson, albeit posthumously. The episode highlights the evolution of investigative technology and the broader implications for justice in cold cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Voice of the Dead Through Forensic Science

• Opening Reflection (02:44):
  Joseph Scott Morgan introduces the theme of listening to the stories of the dead “by what remains,” tying this into the power of forensic science, particularly DNA, to illuminate the truth long after a victim’s voice has been silenced.
  • Quote:
    “The dead can speak to us…in a way that is actually a bit more scientifically based. They tell their stories through all that's left behind, all that remains, if you will.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 02:44)
• Othram Labs’ Role (04:34):
  Morgan describes Othram Labs as an “instrument in the hand of the Almighty”—a reference to how their work restores peace to families by finally answering agonizing questions.

2. The Case Background: The Murder of Margaret Anselmo

• Victim Profile (05:19):
  Margaret Anselmo, 45, mother of two, floral designer, was killed on January 3, 1997. She was last seen cashing a check; her body was later found in a snowy Spokane alleyway, raped and beaten.
  • Quote:
    “A delivery driver found her body face down in a snowy alley. She had been raped and beaten to death… Her cause of death, one forced trauma to the head. Police believe she was the victim of an apparent random act of violence.” (Dave, 05:19)
• Scene Dynamics (06:55–13:46):
  Discussion about the challenges investigators face with alleyway crime scenes, the fleeting nature of physical evidence (especially in snow), and the importance of meticulously documenting drag marks and other clues.
  • Quote:
    “Drag marks are a real thing… You’re looking for any kind of evidence here.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 11:32)

3. Investigative Challenges: 1997 Techniques vs. Today

• Limitations of 1990s Forensics (22:26–23:13):
  The team used standard protocols for DNA collection, focusing on STR (Short Tandem Repeat) profiling. However, a match in the national database (CODIS) was impossible as the perpetrator’s DNA was not on file.
  • Quote:
    “You can have the DNA all day long, but if they're not in the system, you got nothing to compare it to.” (Dave, 26:56)
• Case Management Issues (26:01–27:44):
  Emphasis on how cold cases are often buried under new cases, despite investigators periodically revisiting Anselmo’s murder.

4. Breakthrough with Modern DNA and Genealogy

• Othram and Genealogy as Game Changer (29:01–30:51):
  The process of submitting the crime scene DNA to Othram for advanced genealogical analysis—building family trees, identifying distant relatives, and gradually zeroing in on the perpetrator.
  • Quote:
    “It’s the other side…where these people are literally trying to fashion family trees…it’s also a huge puzzle.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 29:11)
• Philosophical Ramifications (30:51–32:15):
  Morgan contextualizes this as the end of an era—referencing anonymous graves—since science now allows almost everyone to be identified.
  • Quote:
    “The days of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are going to be passing us by…that’s the power of this technology.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 30:51)

5. Identification of the Suspect

• Crime Solved, Justice Deferred (40:32–42:24):
  DNA evidence ultimately points to Brian James Anderson, 20 at the time of the murder. However, Anderson had died by suicide in 2009.
  • Quote:
    “He was 20 years old when he committed this crime, this murder, this rape, this horrible vicious assault…And after they figured out who he was, found out he was born April 29, 1976 and died by suicide July 8, 2009.” (Dave, 40:32)
  • Spokane Police asserted they could have charged and likely convicted if he were living; supporting evidence matched up once Anderson was identified.

6. Broader Impacts of DNA Technology

• Conviction Certainty and Exoneration (42:34–44:13):
  Morgan explains how DNA not only secures convictions but can also exonerate the wrongly accused, provided proper protocols are followed.
  • Quote:
    “When it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers…the only thing you can fight…is procedurally how was it collected, how was it protected, how was it analyzed.” (Joseph Scott Morgan, 42:51)
• Washington State's Use of Othram (44:44–46:28):
  Washington has solved its 41st case with Othram—a testament to the lab’s effectiveness and the potential of public/private funding in clearing cold cases.

7. Role of Public Support & Crowdfunding

• How Listeners Can Help (46:28–47:24):
  Othram is crowdfunded; contributions via dnasolves.com help advance testing in cold cases.
  • Quote:
    “If you want to get involved, you actually can take part in this…it might not be your family…but what if you knew somebody…Never anyone held responsible? You could actually be part of finding that solution for somebody else.” (Dave, 46:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I have never talked to the dead…but I will submit to you that the dead can speak to us…through all that's left behind.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 02:44
• “[Othram Labs] are providing information to families…and I gotta tell you, wherever there is peace, I have to think that the Almighty is at work and that’s what they’re delivering to families.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 04:34
• “All these years have gone by…and there was still no match…you can only work so many of these cases.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 23:05
• “The days of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are going to be passing us by…that’s the power of this technology.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 30:51
• “He [the perpetrator] did, in fact, leave a calling card. A calling card that would tell Margaret’s story of horror.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 15:09
• “He was 20 years old when he committed this crime… And after they figured out who he was, found out…he died by suicide July 8, 2009.”
  — Dave, 40:32
• “When it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers…if you follow the recipe…you got a winner on your hands.”
  — Joseph Scott Morgan, 42:51

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Exploring the Victims' Stories: 02:44–05:19
• Crime Scene Challenges & Initial Forensics: 05:19–13:46
• Procedures for Evidence in Snow: 13:46–15:09
• Limitations of the 1997 Investigation: 22:26–27:44
• Breakthrough with DNA & Othram Analysis: 29:01–32:15
• Implications of Breaking Old Cases: 42:34–46:28
• Funding Cold Case Solutions (dnasolves.com): 46:28–47:24
• Resolution of Margaret Anselmo’s Case: 40:32–42:34

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Conclusion

This episode is a powerful narrative about the intersection of human tragedy, perseverance in policing, and the transformative potential of DNA technology. Listeners are left with a sense of hope that, even decades after a crime, answers can be found—and with a call to action to support organizations like Othram in bringing closure to families and justice to the unnamed and unidentified.

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Transcript

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Joseph Scott Morgan]

I'm here to categorically tell you that no, I have never talked to the dead. All those years I've spent with the dead, all these years I've spent with the dead trying to tell their stories. I've never actually spoken with the dead. As a matter of fact, if I ever do say that, make sure you send the people with the butterfly nets to take me away, because it ain't real. But I will submit to you that the dead can speak to us. They can speak to us in a way that is actually a bit more scientifically based. They tell their stories through all that's left behind, all that remains, if you will. Today, I'm going to tell you the tale of a lady who lost her life at the hands of a monster. And that monster left behind a message. A message in code, as a matter of fact, a message in his DNA because unfortunately, he's no longer around to be held accountable for his brutality. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. They say, Dave, that our sins will find us out. I've heard that ever since I was a little bitty boy. My grandmother used to actually say that to me.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Nothing is hidden, will be revealed.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

That's right. All shall be revealed. And I can't sit here and definitively say that Othram Labs in Woodlands, Texas is an instrument in the hand of the Almighty. However, I have been around a lot of other people in my life that claim that they were an instrument in the hands of the Almighty and I've never seen their fruits. I have seen the fruits of Othram and I know what they're doing. They are providing information to families. And I gotta tell you, wherever there is peace, I have to think that the Almighty is at work and that's what they're delivering to families. And, boy, today do we have a tale to tell.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Margaret Anselmo was 45 years old, Joe. She had two children and she. Margaret had a number of issues, but she loved her kids. She. They were young adults at that point. As we're talking about January 3, 1997, by the way, need to be clear on this. January 3, 1997, Margaret living in an apartment and she goes to cash a check. And that's the last anyone knew of her until next. Her body was found. And I was looking over this show because Margaret is a floral designer. She just was going to cash a check. A delivery driver found her body face down in a snowy alley. She had been raped and beaten to death. Police believe she was the victim of an apparent random act of violence. Her cause of death, one forced trauma to the head. Now, Joe, just laying out that scenario, nobody saw what took place. Merely finding the victim after the fact. Face down in an Alley. It's 1997, nobody's around. Now we're starting the investigation. What do you do?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Well, you try to take as much care as you can. I got to tell you, if you know when, when the police would have worked this case, first off, you've got a place that's, let's just face it, you're talking about alleyways. With alleyways, you've got locations that are obscured. You're not going to have a direct line of sight. Many times from the road, there's various places you can hide out down alleyways. And let me give you a little insight to this, because these are sexually related cases, as you know. You know, I've been to London quite a bit and I got to go over into the hunting grounds of, of Jack the Ripper and walk through that area. Yeah. And I gotta tell you, brother, we were there. Kim and I were there at night and we were going down to a pub that's, that's in the same area where he operated. And even though there are modern buildings there, there are these alleyways that are adjacent that run off of this main street. And I gotta tell you, it gave me the creeps because you can still, to this day. And this is here, this is in 2025. We were just there. All right. I'd never been into that area because I've never been like really into the whole Jack the Ripper thing. But there were, you know, we were staying down in that area. I thought, well, this would be a good opportunity to just go check it out. And it's everything you can imagine, plus more relative to the alleyways that are there. We actually came upon one site that we knew was one where one of the prostitutes commonly took her johns. And she's found dead in that area. And it's an alleyway that's very obscured. And she had been brutalized in that particular location. You could, you could literally feel it there because it's still dark, it's very narrow. That building in that area still had the same facade on it, the worn aged brick. It's not lighted. So when the police, in the case of Margaret's case all the way back in the mid-90s when they would have gone down there, they would. First off, you have to ask yourself this question. Why is this non infirmed lady in an alley found there brutalized? You know that this is probably going to be a sexually motivated event. And as it turned out, it was. And the brutality that went along with her death kind of goes hand in hand with the sexual nature of it. You have to be very careful. What's really fascinating about this, Dave, is that this case is in Spokane, Washington, which is completely different, you know, than like the Seattle area and everything. There's actually snow on the ground here. You don't go to Seattle and see snow. And I wonder if there was evidence in the snow because they talk about this prominently in this particular case. Were there footprints, was there any blood deposition there? Was there any evidence that anyone had struggled back and forth kind of rolling over the surface? The thing about working a case in the snow, which I've, I've not had that many opportunities over the course of my career because I've spent my career in south, I have worked a few, is that if you don't document that case almost immediately, man, particularly here down in the south, you're going to lose bits of evidence along the way because as temperature warms up, all that stuff's going to melt away. So was there anything there that was deposited adjacent to her body that would have provided evidence to give an idea as to the dynamics? Was she drugged down that, down that alleyway? You know, because you can actually see and you know, you hear about this in movies and see it on crime shows how they. People will talk about looking for drag marks. Dave, drag marks are real thing. Really? Yes. I can sit here and I can tell you affirmatively that they are.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

I've seen drag, they were creative license. I thought it was going to figure out a way that the detectives can figure something out. And now we've got this marking. Okay. And now. So it's real. That, that is a thing.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

It is real. And I got to tell you, one of the most prominent cases over the course of my career that I worked involving drag marks was, you know, down here in the south we have, we have pine forest. And many times these so called pine forests are more like, I refer to them as pulpwood ponds. These things that are planted in a row. And I had a lady that had been murdered and raped and murdered out in this area and you could see where she had been drug over the bed of pine needles where she had been fighting There were scuff marks, you know, where she had been kicking. She was being drugged through this area. And also that had transitioned onto her feet as well, covered in dirt. You could see that there had in fact been a struggle. Now, I'm not saying that a pine needle covered surface is the same as a snow covered surface, but it is the same principle. You're looking for any kind of evidence here. Here's another thing. If you think about a sexual assault and the intimacy of this and the violence of it, the perpetrator, not just the victim that may have been drugged back there or restrained back there, the perpetrator is going to leave their own impressions behind, too. You begin to think about, you know, nobody in Spokane, Washington in the wintertime is going to be walking around barefoot. Right. So you're thinking, well, were there any footprints at that particular time? Is there something that may have been missed along the way that would have been very specific. And if there were footprints, is it possible that they were just eradicated? They were. They were not good enough to lift something out of. In forensics you do, there's a wax casting that you can do, and I've never had to do this, but there's a wax casting that you do on prints in the snow. Isn't that fascinating? Wow. And it's kind of sprayed on into this and you can lift this out of the snow. And you have to work really quickly. It's not like you can kind of cut out a block of snow.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Right.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

And preserve all of the detail from the sole of a shoe and, you know, kind of freeze it and hang on to it. Doesn't work that way. You have to cast it with this wax appliance so that you can lift this so it's there forever and ever. The problem is, is that unlike dirt, snow does not hold on to the same detail as dirt does or mud. Okay. So it has to be very, very carefully handled. Now, I'm not saying that that's the case. However, the fact that her body approximated snow, they talk about it being in the snow. I really wonder if there was evidence of that. Dave.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

When you're approaching this, where she is found in an alley and you knew that note that she was walking to cash a check.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Walking down an alley would not be a shortcut. You know, for a professional, somebody who's used to being in an area and going, you, I'm guessing, or I'm thinking, what if this individual, the suspect, picks her up somewhere, offers her a drive. It's cold, it's January 3rd. Hey, you need a lift? Let me help. You know, and she accepts it. He damages her elsewhere and brings her and drops her in the alley. Mm.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

How do you figure that one out? Do you look for tire tracks? Are you looking for getaway marks? What if the snow came after you did that?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, no kidding. So that. That is. That is significant. And I can't tell you over the course of my career how many times I've literally called. I've literally called. There was in Atlanta, when I was working there, I had a relationship with a meteorologist at one of the local stations who had an interest in crime. Believe it or not, we just met. And anytime I needed anything relative to the weather, I would contact this person and they would help me out. A lot of it had to do with the rising and falling of river levels and lake levels. But I could also get a sense because they can tune in to things like environmental temperature, very specific to our region. Like, you know, what was the. What was the air temperature like at this particular time? And I. I had availed myself of their services. So if you're talking about snowfall and snow deposition, you'd really begin to wonder if when was the last snow that fell, when exactly, and how much snow was deposited during that period of time. And you have to kind of bounce that off of when she was last seen in life, making her way to go cash a check. And what was her normal route? How far away from her point origin was this alleyway? Was it a location that she would normally pass? Because here's the thing. If she had created kind of a known path where you're. You're walking this predictable route every single time. We've heard about this before, and you're being observed, and you draw the eye of somebody, some cretin is there watching you, particularly some, you know, defenseless woman that's just about her business. She might be afraid to be in the area in the first place. She's clutching her purse. She's trying to get to the location to cash this check. There's no telling whose eyes are upon you. But this is the case with Margaret. We don't know if anybody saw her walking through there. We don't know if this monster made visual contact with her, came up behind her, and attacked her. But he did, in fact, leave a calling card. A calling card that would tell Margaret's story of horror.

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[Joseph Scott Morgan]

From an Investigative perspective, Dave. When I would go into a case that involved, say, for instance, a rape homicide, there was something about those cases that was so horrible in the sense that not only had somebody been robbed of their life, but there's physical evidence there. It's. You can visualize it, okay. Of the terror that this person probably went through. You see the disheveled clothing. You see a shirt and a bra that is many times not removed. And this happened more than once in these cases, but it's pushed up to expose the breast. You'd be surprised how many of those there are out there. You know, you think about. You see something on. In media where people are ripping clothes. Many times clothes will be pushed up, okay. And pull down. It's not so much a ripping away of clothing. Many times the victim is so terrified that they facilitate this. They just. They want it to be over with. But if you have someone that has. And I got to tell you, in this particular case, Dave, given the nature of this, that somebody that is infected with a bloodlust like this, they're going to do anything and everything they can to. To completely dominate and control. And I think that that's what happened in Margaret's case. The big key here, though, is they're talking about a bludgeoning, a beating, if you will. I really wonder if it was hands and feet or if there was actually an object involved in this, Dave.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Wow. You know, one of the things they did is pretty standard. There is an SOP for everything, Standard operating procedure. And in this particular case, I looked up what was traditional in 1997 in Spokane, Washington, and what they did was right off the chain, mainly because you are dealing with a scenario where you have no witnesses, you have only a finder who is a delivery guy.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

And you have a victim. And so you're starting with nothing except for the body or routine. And. Well, there was some DNA.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

And in 1997, traditional STR DNA profile was developed. Now, what is STR DNA profile?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Just short tandem repeats. And so what you're looking at is that the. There's little markers along the strand that you're trying to marry up those markers so that they tell the story at a molecular level of who this person is now dependent upon the sourcing of this DNA. And when they applied STR methodology to it, the next step, and we even had this back then, Dave, is they plug it into codis, which is the national database. And as you well know, because you've covered so many of these cases, Dave, the chances that you're going to get a hit. Seem to be, most of the time, more, less than great. You know, they're. Because, you know, what you're looking at with CODIS is that there's two categories, and forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse, but I have to remind everybody here that you have these known individuals that are sex offenders, and then you have the unknowns, which is traditionally what's referred to as the forensic database. So if with this STR analysis that they've run, they're looking into the known. So these are people that have been found guilty of some kind of sex offense, they're required to give up. Their DNA is deposited into the system. And back then, the search was a bit more difficult. Going back all those years with codis, it's not quite as. It's more seamless now than it was back then. And a lot of that has to do with advances in technology. But you look first in the known database, and the unknown database arises from these samples that they've gotten from all these other cases, like Margaret's case, for instance, where you have viable sample but this person's not in the database, who are you going to match it up with? And so all of these years have gone by, Dave. All these years have gone by and there was still no match. Or. Or the case had fallen so far down the list, because, remember, we're talking mid-90s. Dave, you think there's been other unsolved cold cases that have occurred in Spokane, Washington, since then? Of course there have been, and it's really tragic because these get stacked one upon another and. And those cases begin to disappear in the rearview mirror. And I know that's very sad, you know, but that's. That's the reality. You can only work so many of these cases.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Everybody has a job, you know, and we all know you have a certain amount that is expected every day, and then you have other stuff that piles on top of that. Yeah, and that's what happens with cases. If you. In a case like her. And again, Margaret was not just kicked to the curb. And, you know, they did everything they could. They interviewed everyone in the area they could find. They. They tried every known way of accomplishing this, and they didn't give up by just kicking it, filing it, and being done with it. They actually did keep returning to it to see if they could find anything. But, you know, it doesn't do any good to have DNA if the person has never had their. The suspect has never had their DNA taken and placed in the System, you can have the DNA all day long, but if they're not in the system, you got nothing to compare it to.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

No.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

And until you. And that's where the development of some of the cases we've had recently that AUM is doing, it's because they're able to now use this incredible technology. Okay, we don't have that guy. But you know what? We do have something over here we can find, you know, and they start pulling that DNA strand apart. In this case, it took until 2022. Joe. Now, one thing I try to do on these cases, I look at family members, you know, because I always wonder what would they be going through not knowing, you know, your mom is dead. You know, I found out a little bit about her daughter. And her daughter was sad because she was such a loving, beautiful woman, but she did have some mental health issues.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

And that is kind of why she was living in an apartment and was not living with. Now her daughter was 19 at the time. Her son was same, I think 18. But any way you look at it, she didn't. She did not live a life on the edge. She wasn't a drug user, she wasn't a partier, she wasn't that, you know, she wasn't any of the things that could put somebody at risk. This is a florist. She designed floral arrangements, for crying out loud, for weddings and funerals. Think about that for just a minute. And when they couldn't solve it, they kept coming back to it. They kept trying to. And finally. It took years, but finally they were able to submit, to offer them. And you know, that's. That's an undertaking in and of itself because you submit what you have and they start working on it and they come up with a few ideas and a few, you know, and they send it back to you. And now the police are working it again and they find they tie some more things together. They send that back and each time it's a couple of months in between. It's not like they. They call Joe and say, hey, Joe, don't you got any DNA there we can run? And you send it to them. And then a week later they go, yeah, we found this murder from 30 years ago. Here you go. We're talking. It's a years long process.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

And it's a lot of continually working, the. Just working to unfold this entire origami, you know, of evidence.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Great way to put it. It is very complex, you know, and it's not just with Othram. It's not Just the DNA scientist. And I know I've told you this before because we talk about these cases with some frequency, but when you walk into this, the only way I can really describe it for those that have not seen images of Othram, it's like walking into some futuristic lab. You feel like you're on some kind of starship somewhere. But it's not just the people behind those. Those glass walls where you can see through and you can see what they're doing. It's the other side of the house, too, where these people are literally trying to fashion family trees, which is intellectually. It's also a huge puzzle to put these things together to try to understand the genealogy. And that's, you know, what eventually leads. Leads back to whoever this might be or at least a close relative.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

It was a relative. That's the thing. They were able to identify somebody who is a relative of that suspect. You have over that. That unknown subject over here. Yeah, well, we found somebody that person is related to and Joe, think that's just. I think about that and I think that that goes beyond the scope of what my head is capable of handling that you haven't identified the suspect, but you identified this person over here that is so far away from him or her. You know, they don't even know each other maybe.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

I heard something. I read it the other day and I wanted to share this with you, Dave, because it kind of. It kind of dovetails with the conversation we're having right now about. Because you said unknown and it brought it to mind again for me and let this kind of seep in here, this discussion we're having. This item that I had read said that the days. The days of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are going to be passing us by. Just imagine that just for a second that that's the power of this technology. You know, people that have fallen in battle. And you can, you know, you can go to graveyards. You know, we have them all over the south where you have, say, Civil War graveyards. You can walk through them and there'll be these headstones and it'll say things like, you know, like it says on. I think at the tomb in Arlington, it says known only to God or it'll say unknown. This technology is now at a point now, Dave, where those days are going to be passing us by very quickly. I mean, just think about, you know, because, you know, sometime back, you know, we talked about the king in the car park with Richard iii. Dude, he. He was killed in battle before Columbus discovered America. All right, before 1492, he was back in the 1300s. They got him identified through one of his descendants. Okay, that's the world that we're living in now. And that's what makes this tool that we have at our disposal and that, that, that Othram has facilitated. You know, and you go back to what David Mitolin has said about, you know, the NAMUS list, those thousands and thousands of people that are on this thing and they are all individual people. His goal is to clear that list out one by one. I don't care how long it takes. That's what his goal is. And for Margaret's case, her case, all the way back all these years ago there in Spokane, down in that dirty little alley, it seemed to come to an end then. But you know what? Her story continued with the end of the life of her perpetrator. I don't know if you and I have had this discussion before. However, I will repeat it.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Okay.

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[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Shop [e-mail] did you know I've investigated more suicides in my career than I have homicides?

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Wow. No, you haven't told me that.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, they outpace homicides.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Wow.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Three to one, two to one. Dependent upon the jurisdiction. You just don't hear about them unless it's like Robin Williams. All right. Unless the media actually says this person's important. I hate that. Yeah, and we're going to name who it is, you know, because if you go to the newspaper, I say newspaper.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Yeah. You know, news resources.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Thank you very much. I don't remember the last time I went to a paper box and dropped coins in it. And I don't even know if they have those anymore.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

They have them right next to the pay phones.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

You know, there was a certain amount of joy that I, I would derive from that, though. From actually getting the newspaper and physically holding it.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Getting your cigarettes from the machine. Yeah.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, exactly. They're out of Marlboros. But, you know, I, you know, you know, you go to the obits and, you know, in the newspaper and it'll give somebody's age there. It'll, it'll say, you know, John Jones, 29, died suddenly.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Right.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

And so that's really all you ever, you know, know about a suicide, unless you're associated with the family.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Yeah. And if the family wants you to know.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Unless the family wants you to know.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Oftentimes now they are sharing things, thankfully, about mental health.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yes.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

And there are warnings about it because, you know, it. You know, Joe, I didn't put two and two together. I did not realize. I didn't realize a lot about homicides versus suicides until I started noticing how when you mentioned suicide, you know, it's, this is a big deal to talk about because so many people feel like. You got it. Look, man, you're taking a permanent, you're making a permanent decision for a very temporary problem.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Don't, please.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah. And that, that's something that, you know, we deal with all the time in my field where we go out and we don't, but we, you know, again, you know, drifting back, putting my forensic hat on. We work all of those suicides because it is a violent death.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

Right.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

We work them all as if they're homicides until we can prove otherwise. And so we're very careful about that because you have to be. You get one shot at, buddy. But how. It's, it's weird. It almost seems like, and I'd really like to know the attitude of the police because it's like they've got, in one hand, they've got this case, Margaret's case, that has just been lingering and on the books for all of these years. And they're, they're hoping against hope. They're going back, checking it periodically. There's other cases coming in. And finally, they do have a ray of hope relative to identifying, identifying who this person was that perpetrated this rape homicide. And can you imagine, I wonder if they felt, I wonder if when they made the id, if they were deflated, Dave, over the fact that this person could not, at least in this world, could not be held accountable for what he had perpetrated against Margaret and her family.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

They were able to, using the DNA that was taken from, from Margaret when her body was discovered in that alley. And even though it took many, many years, they were able to finally determine that that DNA came from Brian James Anderson. Brian Anderson, he was 20 years old when he Committed this crime, this murder, this rape, this horrible vicious assault. He's a 20 year old man, he's beating up a 45 year old woman and raping her and leaving her like trash in an alleyway. And after they figured out who he was, found out he was born April 29, 1976 and died by suicide July 8, 2009. I cannot imagine what the investigators felt because they solved it. And they said, they, in their announcement, Joe, they said, if he were alive, we have the evidence to charge him with this and get a conviction. That's the one thing. It wasn't just this DNA. They had other evidence to go along with it that all matched up once they identified him.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Right. And so the, you know, investigatively, many times the clouds begin to part, right. You know, you, you see, because then you, you know that big blank that you have in your brain when you're trying to figure out a puzzle and you get one piece of the puzzle, then all of a sudden everything else, there's clarity added to, right. It's like, oh my God, I can't believe I missed this. And now, you know, almost like a spider web, you see all of the connectivity that runs through it.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

They did say, I wanted to be clear on that, Joe. The Spokane Police Department said if he were still alive, they would seek to charge him with first degree murder and first degree rape.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah. Which for, for those of you that don't know, anytime you hear that term first degree, it means a couple of things. In many jurisdictions that means that there are aggravating circumstances. Like I'll give you, for instance, if you, if you commit an armed robbery, for instance, and you happen to kill somebody in the commission of an armed robbery, that's an aggravating circumstance. And that can be first degree homicide. You go to some states and they don't, they don't have the degrees like this. Like you go to Georgia and they'll call it malice murder. And I still have a hard time kind of wrapping my, my brain around that statute. But in Louisiana, you know, where I learned criminal law as an undergraduate, you know, first degree murder, and it's murder there, you know, that's a death penalty case. And there's certain aggravating circumstances, you know, that make it that way. Like if you kill somebody under 12 or you kill a, actually kill a school teacher or a firefighter or police officer while they're working, that's first degree homicide. Commission of an armed robbery, commission of a rape, all those sorts of things. So I'm thinking that, that's those two things go hand in hand with this case where, you know, the circumstances were so over the top that if they had had a chance to drag him into a courtroom, there's a. There's a good possibility they. They would have gotten a conviction on this guy. Because, Dave, when. Brother, when it. When it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers. The only thing you can fight, and here's the way I look at it, the only thing that the defense can put up relative to a defense against the utility of DNA in court is procedurally how was it collected, how was it protected? How was it analyzed? Because if you follow the recipe that you're supposed to follow every single time you get one of these samples and you treat it as if it's the most fragile thing in the world, which, by the way, kind of is, and you follow through with all of the steps prescribed by law, then you got a winner on your hands. You know, when you start to get up into these astronomical numbers that, you know, that go back to a specific identity, it's something that people won't soon forget. I think that that's. That's why DNA in particular, it has two utilities. First off, a lot of these cases, it's not just about convicting people, Dave. It's about people that have been wrongly convicted, okay, where you can take it. And the cops were looking in a completely different direction, or there was some kind of malfeasance where they convinced somebody to admit to something they haven't done, and they go back and examine the DNA, which is, you know, it's pretty amazing when you think about it. But here's one more bit to this case that I found absolutely fascinating. Did you know, Dave, that. That this case. This case is the 41st case that the state of Washington has utilized the services of Othram, and they've gotten off the books. Wow. So I don't know. I don't know who's been listening to the Gospel of Othram up in Washington, but I think you got a bunch of true believers up there. They see the utility of what can happen. What can happen when you take this evidence and you apply it and use it for the good that it serves. It's quite amazing that all of these cold cases that they have up there, whether they were unidentified bodies or unidentified perpetrators that had committed some kind of heinous act. Dave, they're off the books now, man. Love it.

[Dave (Co-host or Interviewer)]

It's one of the most amazing things. And as we try to point out, every time Othram is not funded by the government. They don't have a money tree out in the backyard. They actually have to crowdfund to begin. A lot of the projects they're working on. A lot of it comes like even from a police department. When they submit DNA, there has to be money. They have to have $7,500 to begin. And I'm going to be honest, Joe, that's not very much money when you look at what they're doing. Yeah, and it's, it's one of those things where if you want to get involved, you can, you actually can take part in this. And it might not be your family, you might not have anything in your family that. But what if you knew somebody that had a death of a loved one and there was never anyone held responsible? You know, you could actually be a part of finding that solution for somebody else.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yes, you absolutely could. And here's what I suggest. If you go to dnasolves.com you can look through the cases that are right now pending that they need that one little push to get them over the hump in order to begin the wheels rolling, if you will, to flip the switch. This is the perspective I ask you to at least consider. You know, we always talk about the people nowadays like to throw around the term family and community. And if you live in a specific geographic location in the U.S. or maybe that's your point of origin, someplace that was your old hometown, go through there and find something that catches your interest. Maybe, you never know, you might have had some kind of connection to somebody that is missing. There's unidentified remains in your old hometown or somewhere in the state that you love. If you want to send money that way, send it that way. And all you have to do is go to dnasolves.com look through the cases and you can give as much or as little as you wish. But listen, there is in fact a needle. People are banging on all the time about how much they wish they could be a detective. Well, I'm not saying you're gonna get a gold badge, however, I can tell you this by contribution that you might make to othram. You're doing more than a lot of people have ever done that were in fact so called investigators. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags.

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[Joseph Scott Morgan]

This is an iHeart podcast.