← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
BOMBSHELL: EPSTEIN FILES TO BE RELEASED, JUSTICE OR SMOKESCREEN?
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That's how you MailChimp your marketing with SMS. Tap the banner to learn more Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, Bombshell the Epstein Files to be released. Finally. Is it justice or just another smokescreen? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. I never thought I'd See the day when we had to go to Washington and demand a child sex molester's files become public.
- [03:07]
E
What?
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What is this? Russia? China? O H E, double L, N O. I ain't shutting up about this. Will there finally be justice for Epstein victims? Not just Epstein, but when I say Epstein, I'm talking about many, many powerful and or wealthy men that absolutely engaged in sex with minors. We know, do we not? Straight out to Barry Levine. Joining us, author of the Spider Inside the Tangled Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. We know beyond a doubt that girls as young as 12 years old were flown to Lolita Island. Isn't that true?
- [03:50]
B
Yes, it is true, Nancy. And the only way we're going to get justice for these victims and the Department of Justice told us there's more than a thousand victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell is to see these files is to see the 100,000 pages of documents that include police reports, depositions, interviews, and focus in on the 20 men that Representative Tom Massey said have been sex trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein.
- [04:19]
A
Absolutely. And my point is, in the last hours, a stark reversal where President Trump is now calling for the release of the files, but something very, very critical to Victoria Churchill. Joining us, U.S. political investigative reporter for DailyMail.com we need the release of the DOJ, Department of Justice and judicial files, not just the congressional files. I'm not parsing words. The congressional files consist largely of email and phone conversations. The DOJ and judicial files consist of depositions, terabytes and terabytes of evidence that has been amassed by the doj. I'm talking about videos, terabytes of videos taken in the Epstein homes, taken at Lolita island and beyond. The judicial and DOJ files are much more extensive than the congressional files. Giving me the congressional files is not going to advance that much. We need it all. Explain Victoria Churchill, the most recent order from the White House regarding the Epstein files. Victoria?
- [05:49]
C
Sure. So President Donald Trump on his way back from Mar a Lago in Florida last night said that he is totally okay with Republicans in the U.S. house of Representatives voting for the DOJ files to be released. That, of course, is after this discharge petition led by Thomas Massie, as mentioned by your other guest, as well as Marjorie Taylor Greene, who Trump has had a field day with over the past weekend, you know, insulting her, mainly because she has been one of the main people who is pushing to go ahead and live, you know, to release these files as well as other representatives, you know, other Republican female representatives. But now it looks like that even though those signatures on that discharge petition hit that 218 number that they needed last week, excuse me, with the swearing of Adelita Grijalva, who, of course, they took 50 days to swear her in in Congress, but she was out last signature on that petition. Now, Speaker Mike Johnson said last week that it will be up for a vote this week. And now Trump is saying, okay, Republicans can vote for it. So that is a change in the position that he has had throughout his time in office. But I also do want to note that In September of 2024, when on the campaign trail, he actually promised to release the files related to Epstein as well as JFK and even mlk. So it's kind of interesting how the President has flip flopped on this. But I also think that goes to show that he doesn't think that he will be implicated in anything nefarious in these files. And so I think that really two things can be true. I think his name can be mentioned as a former business associate of Epstein. You know, in the Daily Mail, we constantly run pictures of Trump and Melania at Mar a Lago with Epstein, with Maxwell. They were known associates. That's undeniable. However, his name can be all over the files and he cannot be implicated in anything nefarious, which I think is what will. What we will discover to be the truth.
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In the last hours to start reversal from the White House, Trump now claiming he wants the Epstein files release after much furor over the past months. Why? Why the turnaround? Do we care? Or is this just another smokescreen?
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Listen to Ghislaine Maxwell. Epstein writes, trump spent hours at my house with a victim. Corresponding with Trump biographer Michael Wolf. Epstein says of course Trump knew about the girls. He asked Ghislaine to stop. Wolf warns Epstein. Trump will be asked about their relationship at an upcoming debate, and the two discuss how answers may benefit Epstein.
- [08:23]
E
These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing wrong. And what President Trump has always said is that he was from Palm beach and so was Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein was a member at Mar a Lago until President Trump kicked him out. Because Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile and he was a creep.
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A
What we are hearing is just more political mumbo jumbo. For instance, it's time to move on from the Democrat hoax perpetrated by the radical left lunatics. But nobody cares about politics on this. This is about crime victims that were raped as children. Listen.
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E
For so many years, it felt like Epstein's criminal behavior was an open secret. Not only did many others participate in the abuse, it is clear that that many were aware of his interest in girls and very young women and chose to look the other way because it benefited them to do so. They wanted access to his circle and his money. Their choice to align with his power left those of us who had been harmed by this man and his associates feeling very isolated.
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A
That's from Representative Thomas Massie on X. Is this real? We are now learning in the last hours, the White House has done an abrupt U turn demanding the release of the Epstein files. But so far we have been stonewalled, one smokescreen after the next, being led to believe we're finding the truth, only to find out it's all bs. For instance, in the last days, the House oversight committee releases 20,000 documents. They were nothing. Listen.
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E
The House oversight committee releases 20,000 documents subpoenaed from Epstein's estate on the heels of a smaller release implying President Trump knew about Epstein's abuse. The documents include thousands of emails with high profile contacts, financial and property records, excerpts from James Patterson's filthy rich, and records of Epstein's fixers desperate attempts to improve his public image.
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A
Joining me now, Lynn Shaw. She is the founder and director of Lynn's warriors, dedicated to ending sex exploitation and human trafficking. If this is just another ruse, I think there's going to be an insurrection.
- [10:55]
E
Oh, absolutely. Coming straight from the warriors leading the charge, because let's, let's call this what this is. Nancy, I see this as kicking the can down the road. That's what's happening. Take that as you may. We do have something we are urging Starting today, 6am this morning, every member of Congress, it's called the Epstein Files Transparency Act. And I'll tell you why we're doing this. Even though we want, you know, more from the Justice Department, that's where it is right now. We will not be silenced about any of this. We're going to keep up the pressure. We're going to keep showing up in front of Congress, we're going to keep talking about it, because these women are numbered in 1000 plus. That's what we know about. And all of the women in videos I keep seeing, we know all of those women and they bravely are coming forward to speak on behalf of those who cannot speak. And all of them have trauma in their own lives. And there's a wonderful video we put out today from our colleagues at World Without Exploitation. And everybody should see it because these are women who have come forward who say, hold up a picture. I am 12. This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein. I am 14. This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein. And it's a whole slew of women. So let me tell you more of this kicking the can down the road. We are not having it. We're gonna keep the pressure up.
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A
As a matter of fact, let's take a look at Lynn Shaw's video.
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I was 14 years old. I was 16 years old.
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I was 16. 17, 14 years old.
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This is me. This was me. This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein.
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This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein.
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It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows. It's time to shine a light into the darkness. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, psychoanalyst from the California jurisdiction, author and star on Peacock. You can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany the victims have been through so much. You and I have dealt with child molestation, child rape victims our whole lives, essentially since we got into me the legal business, you, the psychoanalyst business. Dr. Bethany after living through what they've lived through as children, after waiting all these years, now they hear from the White House, release the files for what, the second or third time? If this is another smokescreen and it's all bs, I'm just a trial lawyer. BETHANY but I would conjecture that will cause irreparable damage for the President to say release the files and then it not happen again.
- [13:35]
E
And Nancy, it causes irreparable damage because it's part of the same offending pattern. The victims in all of their interviews are saying that once they were on the island as minors, after they were sex trafficked, that Epstein would stalk them and would offer them jobs at like say a modeling agency or with a, with a media mogul or to give them a, a singing contract or something like that. The same offending pattern as P. Diddy. He would just get ahead of the story by offering them goodies, offering to promote their career. Now, isn't that the same thing that politicians are doing with the public? They're just getting ahead of the story. They're offering us something. They're saying, look, children, we are going to release all these files and you're going to learn so much.
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A
Joining me now, a PR guru, Rob Shooter, you know him well, author of a brand new hit book on Amazon. It started with a whisper. Rob. Very often a cover up ends up being worse than the actual crime, right? The COVID up intensifies the crime. In this case, I don't know. Other than murder, what could be worse? Than molesting children. But trying to suppress that evidence is even more wrong doing heaped on top. Now, I want you to hear something, Rob Sheeter, and you're going to have to take it with a box. Not a pinch, a box of salt. But listen to this.
- [15:07]
B
Epstein's MCC cellmate, ex cop Nicholas Tartaglioni, claims Epstein told him prosecutors were after Trump and Maureen Comey promised Epstein a deal as long as he implicated the President in his crimes. Comey told Epstein he did not have to prove anything as long as Trump could not disprove it. Cartaglioni claims Epstein told him Trump was not involved.
- [15:31]
A
Rob, you and I are so far on the outside looking in. We hear that Trump told Ghislaine Maxwell to, quote, stop what she and Epstein were doing, which of course does suggest guilty conscience, but also an effort to stop what was happening here. We hear from a cellmate, yes, he's a cellmate. That means he's convicted, but also an ex cop. And he says Epstein was being pushed to a deal where he would implicate Trump before he was killed behind bars. Before Epstein was killed behind bars and was told, you don't have to prove it because Trump can't disprove it. My question, that was the lead up, Rob. Do you believe Trump has been afraid to release these files because of the damage to his reputation? Not that he necessarily did anything wrong, but that it would be so damning his friendship with Epstein?
- [16:39]
F
Very good question, Nancy. I believe the answer to that is most likely yes. However, I can't be totally confident in my answer because we haven't seen the documents, we haven't seen the information. This is why stories, conspiracy theories, maybe even the truth is all just swishing around because we don't have all the information. This information has to be released, Nancy. It's got to the point now where I agree with you, it has to be released. And I think at this point we are going to be absolutely shocked with what we find out. However, I think that is going to be better than saying nothing. The current situation cannot sustain itself.
- [17:28]
A
And again, I do not like to veer into politics, but we practically had to hold a hot poker to his rear end to get Trump to go this far. Was he so afraid of what would be in those files, whether he did anything wrong or not, that he had knowledge of what was happening that he was implicated in, that he was the plane that he was with Epstein, has that been the holdup? Or are there more powerful people, even more powerful, that will be implicated? The Concern has been so far, and we know, Rob Shuter, that a lot of the files have been redacted. In other words, you get a piece of paper and half of it has been marked out with a black magic marker. Names to protect the innocent have been redacted. But when these files are released, they very likely may not be redacted. So a lot of innocent people are going to be thrown in the same pot to stew with the guilty.
- [18:30]
F
Yeah, yeah. All the names are going to come out. Anybody that has had any interaction, emails, exchange with Jeffrey, it's all going to come out. What you're saying is there somebody even more powerful than the President of the United States? It's here. I just can't think of that person. I've worked this business a long time. No celebrity, no billionaire is more powerful at the moment government than the President of the United States. So I don't think I buy that. I also have worked around the Trump family for over 30 years. When he was in the entertainment business, he would often invite me to Trump Tower to the Celebrity Apprentice set. He is a master, a master at reading the public. And so the fact that he has decided it is better off to take all this anger, to take all this, all this really valid emotion and not release all the information tells me he really, really wants to hide them.
- [19:26]
A
In this case, Rob Shooter, the innocent are going to be thrown in the same pot with the guilty to stew. But that is the price for full transparency. Joining us tonight is a very special guest who has once again landed at the forefront of the national news because of Jeffrey Epstein. May Epstein rot in hell. I'd like to start. Of course, the news of the night is President Trump's stark reversal on releasing the Epstein files. And they are volumous. The 20,000 documents we've gotten so far is only a very small percentage of what there is. Just imagine it goes back years and years and years. And, Alan, you've seen cases with thousands and thousands and thousands of documents. But before we get into that, I want to make it very clear. At one time, Professor Dershowitz was accused of molesting Virginia Giuffre. It has been agreed upon by Jeffrey and her lawyers that Dershowitz was not involved. That said, Allen, you have landed in the middle of a stink bomb on this case. And part of it is because just recently you parsed words on Epstein's conviction. Remember that conviction in the early 2000s where he pled guilty to solicitation of a minor? Remember that? Many people call that pedophilia but you are saying no, it was not pedophilia.
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B
Well, I just think we have to get our words right. Pedophilia means very young girls. 13, 14, 12. The woman that he, the girl that he admitted to having sought sex on was 17 years and 10 months. That's terrible. And it's a crime and it's underage, but it's not pedophilia. And so you can't say he's been convicted of pedophilia. Not that it makes such a difference because he was accused of terrible, terrible things, including relatively young people. But let's get it's bad enough without distorting the reality. And so what he did was horrible. What he did was inexcusable. And the moment I found out that he did it, I terminated my friendship with him. And by the way, the newly released documents prove that I was telling you the truth when I said that Jeffrey hated my guts. In his emails he talked about me being mentally ill. He talked about me being a terrible, terrible lawyer. If I had ever done anything wrong, the first thing he would have done was reveal it to people. But he didn't. So I'm glad these new emails are coming out and I'm glad that President Trump has finally agreed to urge people to vote to have everything come out. The day I was falsely accused, I announced I want everything out. I want the FBI to investigate me. I waive all privileges cuz I knew I hadn't done anything wrong and therefore everything would exculpate me is of course as of course it has. So if you're innocent, you should want everything out. And if you're guilty, maybe you shouldn't.
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Crime stories with nancy grace. You know I'm very curious as to why.
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- [25:37]
A
This has been such an obstacle. Obstacle in DC Why? These files have been. It's like hide the ball. From the very beginning, we've gotten conflicting statements. We've been told by Bondi. They're sitting right here on my desk. I've got the client list. But then claiming, oh, there is no such thing. Do they think we're idiots, Alan?
- [26:01]
B
Well, there is a list, a list of FBI names that the FBI got in interviewing the victims. And there is such a list. I've seen it. And the names have been redacted. Some of the names have been made public. Being on the list doesn't necessarily mean you're guilty. It means somebody has accused you. But there is such a list. There's no Jeffrey Epstein client list. He didn't have a little book in which he said, this woman is going to go to this guy, this woman is going to go here or there. There's no such list like that. But the FBI does have names that they're suppressing. And the judges, judges, this is the important point. Judges have been suppressing. They have sealed depositions, including in my case. And I'd love to see all those depositions. I made motions in court to get them revealed, but the courts have said no. The courts have said, we're not going to release this. So the courts have been suppressing information. The government has been suppressing information. Now I think we're going to see the government information out there, but the court information is still going to be suppressed. And I think that your program, other programs have the right to go to court and say, look, please, the public has the right to see this. Let's unseal these depositions.
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A
You know, Alan, having built many, many, so many cases, I can't remember them anymore, I can't keep count of them. But I'm confounded in the face of so many allegations and so many victims that I believe. Victims of Epstein, your former client, victims of his friends, child trafficking, girls as young as 12 years old. And we've been able to document that from all around the world, from Turkey, from the stands, all going, many of them anyway, to Lolita Island. There have to be witnesses, Allen. There has to be documentation of their flights, their ferry rides. What I don't understand, Allen, is why at this juncture, in the face of overwhelming evidence, there is not a full on investigation of who these men are. Epstein's dead. Can we now focus on other offenders? Why are they being protected? And why is there not an ongoing federal investigation? I'm tired of hearing about politics, Alan. I'm tired of hearing about what Trump wants and Bonding wants and the Democrats want, the Republicans want. Why isn't there a federal investigation finding the names of these alleged perpetrators and prosecuting them?
- [28:35]
B
Look, I agree with that. If they're guilty, they should be prosecuted. But at the same time, all information should be released about whether or not these accusations are true, false or somewhere in between. We have to hear all sides of the issue. I wrote a book called Guilt by Accusation. You can't find somebody guilty just because they're accused. They have to have a due process right to defend themselves. But I think every name should be revealed. Everybody who's been on the island, everybody who's been on the airplanes, everybody. Then they have to explain what they were doing on the island, what they were doing on the airplane, what they were doing in the house. I've done that. I've explained that completely. And everything I've ever said has been completely corroborated by the release of the recent email. So I think mine is a case in point. If you're innocent, please, please, p. Have everything revealed. If you're guilty, I understand you're a little bit reluctant to have the truth come out. But if you're innocent, you want the truth to come out.
- [29:32]
A
Well, Alan, I appreciate that. I do, and I agree with you. But I am not suggesting guilt by accusation or trial in the media. What I'm saying is I keep hearing about there is no client list. Well, it's just like a witness list. A police report or an allegation by a victim is not a client list. You, the prosecutor, have to go and create the witness list. You have to investigate. I'm not asking for trial by media. I'm saying, why, Allen, is there not an investigation into these claims? Why are we talking about there's no client list? Well, go make one Investigate. Find out who the men are when they were there, who are their victims? These victims are now adult women. They can convey what happened to them. I don't understand. What's the holdup?
- [30:32]
B
I agree completely. Look, there is. I've seen it. I've held it in my hand. There is an FBI report in which the names are redacted, in which victims say, these are the men, A, B, C, D. They identify them by name. And the court has required that all those names be redacted and crossed out. They shouldn't be. I want every single name released. And I went to court to try to get every name released, but the people whose names are there obviously don't want them released. But at this point in time, every name should be made public. Every accusation should be made public. And then the people whose names are on the list should have an opportunity to explain, to deny, to disprove. But right now, nobody benefits from suppression. And that's why I'm so upset at courts. Courts, federal judges keeping names out. They shouldn't be doing that. I want to see that FBI unredacted list of the names, and then we can judge whether the allegations are true or false.
- [31:35]
A
Which leads me, Alan, to the question why? Normally, as you know, in a criminal proceeding, the state doesn't have to prove motive. But I'm curious, because I think it will lead me to more wrongdoing. Why do you believe that these Names have been suppressed, as you say, redacted. But I think they're being suppressed.
- [31:57]
B
They are. They are being suppressed and they're being suppressed by federal judges. So let's get the federal judges to release every name of everybody and release the name of information that might undercut the claims. Let me give you an example. There's a woman named Sarah Said videotapes of Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Richard Branson and others having sex with young children. So, okay, so she sent hundreds of emails to the New York Post making those allegations. Then she admitted she made the whole thing up. So if you're going to release the accusations, you also have to release the admission that she made it up. So as long as we get the whole picture, innocent people shouldn't be concerned, guilty people should be concerned. But that's the process of criminal justice, to distinguish between the innocent and the guilty. So, please, let's release everything. I have an interest, obviously, because I'm innocent and I want everything out there. Other people have an interest in suppressing it, but the interest in suppressing it shouldn't prevail. The public has the right to know.
- [33:03]
A
Ellen, I'm sure that you can understand why all of us, the regular people who are not on the inside of this investigation like you have been, are stymied. We don't understand how. And you know how I feel about politics, Alan. We've discussed it before. I don't care if you're a Republican, a Green, a Democrat, don't care. But we were told these would be released. Then there was a sudden about face as soon as Trump got into the White House and Bondi has been the spokesperson. The stark reversal on that in the last hours is encouraging, but I'm still left with a feeling we're never going to know the truth and that the onus is on the victims, themselves, themselves, to somehow put together their own investigation to pursue.
- [34:00]
B
It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be on the victims. It should be on the government. The government should be producing everything. They should be going to court and saying the public interest outweighs any privacy interests at this point, and we want to see everything out. But we haven't seen that happen yet. And you're right to ask the question why? What I'm so pleased is that President Trump has now said he does want to make sure the Republicans vote to release at least the congressional material. But I also want the government to go in and try to release the judicially suppressed material. Then maybe we can get close to everything. What I want to see is every single document, every videotape, every call, everything out there, you know, not lawyer client, privileged material, if those are, if they have a special status. But everything else should be out there.
- [34:49]
A
Alan, what's the difference between the congressional documents and the judicial documents? Because as of right now, only congressional documents are being released.
- [34:58]
B
That's right. So the judicial documents are depositions. I was deposed for hours and hours. My false accuser was accused for hours and hours. Those have been suppressed along with everybody else in the Ghislaine Maxwell case. In other cases, the judges have suppressed, and they've also suppressed grand jury minutes. Now, I don't think grand jury minutes are going to give us very much because prosecutors, all they have to do is send somebody into the grand jury to describe the evidence. But the depositions are very substantial and they involve people very close to Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not at liberty to disclose the names of these people because they're sealed, but some of them are extremely close to Epstein, and it would be very, very important to have those documents out there. And I think the judges should release those documents, and they're more in many ways, at least as important.
- [35:54]
A
Alan, before we move on to our other guests for this evening, I'm very, very disturbed by you, and I'm circling back to it, parsing words on pedophilia. I just want to be clear. Your former client, Jeffrey Epstein, pled guilty to solicitation and procurement of a minor of minors for sex, whether they're 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, as was the case, there is still a minor in the eyes of the law. And as you know, in other cases, girls as young as 12 have been sent to Lolita Island. That has been documented. Now, in the case where he pled guilty, the victim was not 12, but still a minor. Allen.
- [36:49]
B
So people should say he is a convicted sex offender. He is convicted of having sex with a minor. But they shouldn't say he's a convicted pedophile, because when you combine the two words, convicted, which means he's either pleaded guilty or has been found guilty and pedophile, it suggests that he has been found guilty after due process of having sex with 12, 13, 14 year olds. And that isn't true. What he did is bad enough. I'm not trying to defend them because it really doesn't make much of a difference. All I'm suggesting is that if you want to be credible, let's get it all straight and let's make clear that he never pleaded guilty or was found guilty. Of anything that, according to the diagnostic and statistical manual of the American Psychiatric association and other medical sources would label him a pedophile. You could disagree and say it's a question of words. I don't think it makes a big difference.
- [37:40]
A
Not disagree with the black and white definition of pedophile, which is an attraction to prepubescent children. Prepubescent. Let me break that down. That means the girl doesn't have breasts yet. She may not have pubic hair. She's around the age of 13 or younger, typically speaking. But at this juncture, to parse words about whether he's a convicted pedophile or convicted child sex molester or procuring sex with a minor is largely a false argument at this point. What do you think is going to happen, Alan? Now? Will we ever get the truth?
- [38:25]
B
I think so. I think we're going to get the truth. I think there's so much public pressure and there's so much pressure from Congress that I think ultimately we're going to see all the emails, we're going to see the videotapes, if there are videotapes. And I know there are at least some videotapes of what happened in the living room of his house because he arranged those videotapes with the police in Palm beach county because somebody had stolen material from him. So I want everything out there, and I think that the public has been pushing for that. You've been pushing for it. Other people have been pushing, and I think you're going to prevail. I think in the end, everything will come out. It will exculpate innocent people like me. It will incubate guilty people, and I don't know who they are, but whoever they are should be found guilty. And I think in the end, the truth will prevail. Because I'm interested as a professor, I'm interested in the truth. As an advocate, obviously, I'm interested in getting the best possible conclusion from my clients. But as a professor, I'm interested in the truth. And I want the whole truth to come out. And I think it will. And I think it will because of people like, you know, pushing so hard to get everything out there. You should keep pushing. Don't stop.
- [39:33]
A
Alan Dershowitz representing one nasty devil after the next. Thanks for being with us tonight, Alan. Thank you.
- [39:42]
B
Also represent some innocent people, occasionally represented Natan Sharansky. I represented Bill Clinton, I represented Ted Kennedy. That are all innocent. But you know, my representation. I also, as I said, represented many women who have been abused and threatened and so stay tuned.
- [39:57]
A
Kennedy.
- [39:59]
E
Okay.
- [40:00]
A
I think I would leave him out of that mix. That said, good night, sir.
- [40:04]
B
Good night.
- [40:05]
E
After Jiffre comes forward with her allegations, Epstein writes publicist Peggy Siegel urging her to suggest to Arianna Huffington that Andrew's accuser is a total liar with a long criminal history. And the Huffington Post should publish a story championing the dangers of false allegations. Epstein denies the girl in the photo was underage while in his employment, claiming she was a telephone answerer.
- [40:29]
A
So much is happening on the other side of the ocean. Back to Rob Shooter, our favorite Brit PR guru. We are now learning in the email dump that Prince Andrew tried to undermine claims that the photo of he and Jaffrey was fake. Epstein says, and I quote, yes, she was on my plane talking about Jeffrey. Yes, she had her picture taken with Andrew, as many employees have. Epstein himself validates that photo. Which leads me to my question. Rob. Right now, there is a move underfoot to have Andrew and Fergie as well prosecuted for using their powers to smear Virginia Giuffre. What's happening?
- [41:26]
F
This is really the topic of conversation in Britain. It's gonna be the conversation, I think, for several days now. People are furious. People are outraged about this. If Andrew used his taxpayer security, we paid for this. We paid for his protection. If he's using his security to get himself out of some ugly, nasty, dirty situations, that is a total, total outrage, and the British public will not stand for it. I think the palace hoped that after they stripped him of his palace, of his titles, we would stop talking about him. But this story is not going away, Nancy. There are still too many questions. Andrew will be held accountable, and this story is far from over.
- [42:13]
E
Royal biographer Andrew Lowney says it's likely Andrew and ex wife Sarah Ferguson wind up behind bars, but he doesn't believe it will be for sex trafficking. Lowney says the case against Windsor is quite financial impropriety, misconduct in office, and various public offenses. While Ferguson goes down for unscrupulous use of charity money, Lowney predicts the divorcees will flee the country. Mountbatten likely taking advantage of the UAE's privacy, much like Spain's former King Juan Carlos. She was the reason I came forward.
- [42:46]
D
And I know the reason why so.
- [42:48]
E
Many others have as well.
- [42:51]
A
And so she just walked such a.
- [42:52]
E
Fearless path, and I just.
- [42:53]
D
I wish that she were alive to see this day.
- [42:57]
A
That's from our friends at cbs. That's Danielle Binsky, an Epstein victim. So where Virginia Giuffre left off after her untimely death, Other victims have been reignited by her to move forward, including on people within the US And Andrew. So let me understand this. Rob Sheeter joining us, PR guru and author of It Started with a Whisper on Amazon right now. And by the way, it's amazing. Rob Shooter, Andrew and Fergie may go down on nothing to do with Jeffrey, but without Jeffrey, this would never have happened. So what will they potentially go down on? What? What crime?
- [43:42]
F
Financial crimes here, Nancy. Let's remember Al Capone went to prison for tax evasion, not for murdering people. And so what's happened here is the Jeffrey Epstein case has pulled the thread into a royal couple who use their power in the most outrageous way. We've pulled the thread and now more is going to be coming out. He was a trade ambassador for years. They always had a dodgy reputation. Now it looks like they are outright grifters. This will be easier to prove because the money trail doesn't disappear. They're pulling at this and people are assuming. People are pretty much confident that this is going to prove some really serious financial crimes. Andrew did not have a lot of money. So you think as a prince, the son of Queen Elizabeth, he would have millions and millions. He didn't. He had barely any money of his own. He didn't really have a job. So how did he live like this? A lot of people are saying Jeffrey Epstein paid. And who else? Who else paid? We're about to find out.
- [44:46]
A
Did you see that multimillion dollar view that Epstein had? That view stinks when you think about some POs abusing her in that massage room, looking out over that beach. They can all go straight to he doublel riding a pitchfork. Is it real? Will we truly see the Epstein files? To Eric Faddis joining us. Veteran trial lawyer joining us out of Colorado, founding partner Varner Faddis, elite legal and former felony prosecutor. Eric, there's a big difference between releasing congressional files, which are a lot of emails. It included excerpts from Filthy Rich. That's a streaming show. Nobody cares. It's a streaming movie made about Epstein. No one cares. Those files are one thing. The DOJ and judicial files are an entirely different matter and contain judicial documents such as depositions, filings, motions, subpoenas, affidavits. The DOJ files will include terabytes of video taken from the Epstein homes, the mansion, Lolita island and beyond Palm Beach. That's what we need, the DOJ and the judicial files. Is this real, Fatis? And how long can we be stonewalled?
- [46:13]
B
Well, Nancy, those DOJ files they really contain the guts of this substantive investigation that I think has spanned years, if not longer, but potentially decades. You know, they're going to have probably interviews with witnesses, interviews with alleged victims. They're going to have photographs, videos. This is really the heart of the matter. This is what the public wants to see. You know, some emails between two people, you know, vaguely discussing something or other is one thing, but we're talking about serious investigative materials that function as evidence and that can give the public a true glimpse into what this investigation held and what its conclusions were.
- [47:00]
A
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and Eric Faddis Here is the danger in that. The danger is that innocent people, for.
- [47:11]
D
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E
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D
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A
He may represent a lot of dirty dogs that are totally guilty of the worst crimes imaginable, but the fact that he flew on a private plane with Epstein does not implicate him in wrongdoing or Trump. Whether Trump palled around with Epstein, that does not mean he did anything wrong. However, it's not just those two. There are many, many other people that met with Epstein on different matters that are totally innocent. They will be, as I say, in the same pot to stew with the guilty. But that's the price of full transparency, correct? It is.
- [50:25]
B
You know, I think there's going to be significant collateral damage here like you're referencing, Nancy. You know, there are folks who are going to be caught in the crosshairs who may be engaged in no wrongdoing at all. There might even be implications or outright accusations from people that turn out to be false. You know, Jeffrey Epstein is not the most credible dude. Prince Andrew is not the most credible dude. And so if they're pointing fingers at folks, they're horrible.
- [50:49]
A
They're certainly putting perfume on the pig. You know, I mean, think about it, Faddis. How many times have you been alone with the worst, the convicted felon that molested children that committed a crime. I remember driving all over Atlanta with a convicted rapist who had been out of jail for X number of years, and I needed him to lead me to a serial child molester. We drove all over Atlantah him and me in the car for hours and hours. Could it look bad? Yeah, it could look bad. So that's what I'm talking about. And you've been in the same position. And I don't want innocent people implicated. But for these crime victims, there must be a full release of the files. Victoria CHURCHILL Joining us, U.S. political reporter, Daily Mail. In a nutshell, Victoria, and it can get really complicated. What is the Transparency Act?
- [51:47]
C
Yes. So the Epstein files Transparency act is the bill that was introduced in Congress, bipartisan with Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna. It is for the DOJ to release their files. Now, that is a congressional bill. But of course, the big question comes into, can Congress absolutely mandate the DOJ to release every single file? And then if they can, the redactions, of course, are the big question. As you've pointed out, the files that have already been released contain extensive redactions. The Department of Justice will most likely argue that that is to protect the victims. But if you've also looked at press conferences, the victims say they want all of the files released so that people know the extent of Epstein's crimes.
- [52:36]
A
For so long, we have been told there is no client list. And the onus has been put on the crime victims, some of them just 12 years old at the time they were molested, to come up with that. Will we finally get the documents necessary to create that client list? What, and hand it over to the government to pursue?
- [52:55]
E
Listen, I feel a lot of the.
- [52:56]
D
Time that survivors are being asked to.
- [52:59]
C
Come forward with all of this, and.
- [53:01]
B
I just am feeling like, you know.
- [53:04]
E
They just need to do their job.
- [53:06]
D
Jobs and find the names.
- [53:07]
E
I have been threatened considerably.
- [53:09]
A
I've been threatened in phone calls, in.
- [53:13]
E
Packages that have arrived at my house with unpleasant contents. I do believe that they might be intended to silence me, certainly to frighten me into perhaps not coming forward and not being as persistent.
- [53:27]
A
Those are victims of Epstein and others. That was Danielle Binsky and Anouska de Georgiou from CBS and BBC. Even if this is real, it's not a smokescreen. And we do get the DOJ and judicial documents. There's still another problem. Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [53:54]
B
Trump's Ghislaine Maxwell problem is just as serious as his Epstein problem. Maxwell's transfer to Club Fed just days after assuring Deputy Attorney General Blanche Trump did not participate in the abuse appears to be quite the quid pro quo.
- [54:09]
A
In addition to the low security facilities.
- [54:11]
B
General privileges, Maxwell is reportedly demanding VIP treatment that has the warden complaining she's tired of being Maxwell's bitch.
- [54:20]
A
Maxwell getting custom meals behind bars? Who's allowing this?
- [54:28]
E
Maxwell reportedly receives custom meals in her cell, enjoys private exercise time, and access to service puppies. Warden hall ordered to make all requested accommodations for Maxwell, including carrying out secretarial duties on her behalf, providing snacks for her private meetings with guests, letting her visitors bring in computers, and punishing staff members who refused to cooperate. Hall is also rumored to be personally assisting Maxwell and in preparing a commutation application.
- [54:58]
A
Sidney Sumner Joining us, crime stories investigative reporter. This looks bad. And you know what? It is bad. Ghislaine Maxwell is a convicted child sex trafficker and she's getting special meals behind bars. If Trump pardons her, all hell is going to break loose.
- [55:19]
C
Absolutely. This is a huge problem for his administration. On top of the Epstein files, Ghislaine Maxwell's treatment is just horrifying for victims who went through years of testimony and depositions and trying to get Maxwell put behind bars. And now she's getting treated like a VIP star client. It's awful.
- [55:44]
A
Tulyn Shaw joining us. Ghislaine Maxwell, special treatment.
- [55:49]
E
Yeah, hard to say those words, special treatment. We also hear, we don't have proof, but we hear from some sources she's also picked up once or twice a week in a big black SUV and disappears for a few hours. Now, if this isn't a slap in the face of all victims, not only of this crime duo, but of all sex trafficking, sexually exploited women, even men, boys, girls, what, what's going on here? Why aren't more people out screaming about this one? The proof's in the pudding.
- [56:18]
A
Barry Levine joining us, author of the Spider Inside the Tangled Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, veteran investigation investigative reporter and editor. Barry, I'm actually afraid to get my hopes up. We've discussed the problems of the innocent being thrown in the pot with the guilty on this. We've discussed the redactions, we've discussed the possibility that this is a smokescreen again. If the government was intent on getting the guys that molested these then girls, all they have to do is read your book, explain. It's not rocket science. You've laid it all out, particularly the financial trail.
- [57:07]
B
That's absolutely correct, Nancy. And in fact, Senator Ron Wyden, who went down the financial road, identified more than $1 billion in dubious and suspicious wire transfers that Jeffrey Epstein sent through Russian banks, through American banks, to enablers to men who were helping him over two decades to bring little girls from foreign countries, putting them on planes, dressing them up in college sweatshirts so they would look older, to bring these girls to islands. There's a money trail, more than $1 billion in money that Jeffrey Epstein sent out to conduct his sex trafficking. And it's all there. It's all in the financial records. And why hasn't the Justice Department continued to look into this? Why are we getting these whistleblowers who are only now coming forward? You know, it is so upsetting to me. And on behalf of the victims that we're not seeing justice. As I said earlier, Representative Tom Massie said that there's 20 men on his list who received sex trafficking from Jeffrey Epstein. Six billionaires, one of them from Canada, people in the government, people from the music industry, a royal who we know is Prince Andrew, even though he's denied any wrongdoing. We need to see the files. We need to see what the FBI did over the years and to investigate these men.
- [58:45]
A
Finally, justice for Epstein's victims or another smokescreen. To Dr. Bethany Marshall. Joining us, renowned psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany, your advice to the crime victims as we wait to find out the answer to that question. Justice or smokescreen?
- [59:06]
E
Well, I would say to the victims, there are no innocence. I disagree with everybody on this panel. I think anybody who was on the plane, the Lolita Express had to have seen something. You can't be on an island with 12 year olds dressed up like college kids and think that nothing is amiss. The offending pattern, I would say to the victims, as I said earlier, the offending pattern is going on. Rich, powerful people are using Gill and Maxwell are using withholding documents to maintain their power, privilege and their dark secrecy. But don't you worry victims because there are disruptors in society, positive disruptors like Nancy. The people on this panel, people who care about you, who want to protect you. And I do believe that those disruptors will win out at the be at the end of the day. And you, dear victim, are a disruptor too. You are standing up for victims who will come after you. You're playing a very important role. And whenever you think you cannot trust somebody about partner, a child, a parent, think about the people who are coming forward and also speaking on your behalf. And think about those people so that you can stabilize your attachment systems and have a really good life, which is what you deserve.
- [60:22]
A
Tonight we remember an American hero, Corporal Blake Reynolds, Delaware County Sheriff's Indiana, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife, now widow Allison. American hero Corporal Blake Nettles. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friends.
- [61:12]
E
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D
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E
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D
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