BRYAN KOHBERGER "I'M INNOCENT" WANTS TO "TAKE BACK GUILTY PLEA"

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: BRYAN KOHBERGER "I'M INNOCENT" WANTS TO "TAKE BACK GUILTY PLEA"
Date: July 30, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests: Christy & Steve Gonsalves (parents of victim Kaylee Goncalves), Nima Rahmani (former federal prosecutor), Nate Eaton (East Idaho News), Dr. Bethany Marshall (psychoanalyst), Joe Scott Morgan (forensics expert)

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Overview

In this episode, Nancy Grace examines the shocking developments in the case of Bryan Kohberger, convicted for the brutal murder of four University of Idaho students. Kohberger is now attempting to withdraw his guilty plea, claiming innocence and alleging he was tricked into pleading guilty. Nancy is joined by the family of victim Kaylee Goncalves, legal experts, and forensic authorities to analyze what this means for justice, the families, and the ongoing legal process.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Kohberger’s Attempt to Withdraw Guilty Plea

• Nancy Grace opens with the bombshell:
  “Four time convicted killer Bryan Kohberger...now says I'm innocent and he wants to take back his guilty plea. Whoa.” (02:08)

• Kohberger’s claim: He was misled and coerced, claiming he didn’t understand the consequences of pleading guilty and that his “truth” is that he didn’t do it.

• Christy Gonsalves reacts:
  “The judge asked you every single one of those questions...were you coerced? Were you promised anything? Were you on drugs?...I think it’s pretty straightforward.” (06:11)

• Legal expert Nima Rahmani:
  Any defendant can attempt to withdraw a guilty plea under certain circumstances, usually alleging involuntariness, actual innocence, prosecutorial misconduct, or ineffective counsel (07:10–09:09).

2. The Legal Reality—Is New Trial Possible?

• Rahmani explains obstacles:
  “He’s got to basically pigeonhole this petition into one of the really four legal arguments...It’s going to be tough because obviously we all heard the plea colloquy. Right? It was knowing.” (08:41)

• Most likely path is to claim ineffective assistance of counsel—alleging his own lawyers withheld exculpatory evidence or misadvised him (09:53–10:42).

• Nancy expresses skepticism but says there's precedent to appeal a plea (Garza v. Idaho), and even speculates the prosecution could support a new trial if they're also dissatisfied (11:30).

• Steve Goncalves, father of victim Kaylee:
  “I would love for this to be case law in Idaho...We got the firing squad. Let it be.” (12:09)

3. Overwhelming Evidence Against Kohberger

• Nate Eaton (East Idaho News) lays out the case:

  • Surveillance video of Kohberger’s car near the scene at relevant times
  • K-bar knife sheath with Kohberger’s DNA (“5.37 octillion to one likelihood that it was anybody else’s DNA” – Nancy Grace, 14:15)
  • Digital evidence of Kohberger’s phone tracking
  • Amazon purchase record for the knife
    “The evidence that we have seen has led directly to Bryan Kohberger. I don’t know what other evidence he’s talking about.” (13:25)

• Addressing the "clump of hair" defense:
  Christy clarifies with the lead investigator:
  “Absolutely not. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard...It was by no means a clump of hair that the book claims, saying that it was pulled out from the root of somebody’s hair.” (18:51–20:20)

4. The Families’ Agony and Demand for Justice

• Both Christy and Steve Gonsalves voice frustration with the legal process and urge for a full trial to reveal all facts to the public.

  • “I would love [a trial], because I think that it would just stop so much of these people just running their mouths in this conspiracy theory at this point, with this much time gone by.” – Christy (21:02)
  • Steve wants a prosecution with “prosecutor passion to actually uphold the law.” (21:47)

• Memorializing victims:
  Emotional moment as Christy finds her daughter Kaylee’s “grub truck” ticket, a stark reminder of the life lost (27:46–28:37).

5. How Could a New Trial Happen?

• Rahmani:
  The defense must plausibly claim they failed their client, which would provide legal grounds for a new trial (25:30–26:29).

  • “If they put that in writing, it’s a done deal...There’s really nothing the judge or the state can do to stop it because we don’t know what communications they had with Coburger. And if they confess that type of error, then it’s game over and the judge has to grant the motion.” (25:30)

• Nancy Grace pushes back on true legal barriers:
  “There has to be a constitutional violation...Absent a constitutional violation, we’re not going to be able to get there.” (35:38)

  • Ineffective assistance is the only real path (36:09).

6. Psychological Insights: Kohberger's Behavior

• Dr. Bethany Marshall offers analysis:
  “My clinical experience leads me to believe that you [the families] are only the people he can victimize right now...He lashes out at you...that’s worse than a mosquito. That’s somebody who, if he was not behind bars, would maybe have you in his sights.” (39:23)
• She sees manipulativeness and lack of empathy:
  “He’s throwing his defense team under the bus, which shows me how dispensable everybody is to him. His mother and father now have to come into court...he’s subjecting his family to torture, as well as the Gonzalez family and all the other families.” (40:42)

7. The Cost and Desire for Transparency

• Christy apologizes for the drawn-out, costly legal process:
  “This has been so expensive and just continues to run...But how much is your child worth?...You know, there’s no dollar amount that you can put on that.” (51:53)

• Steve laments lack of transparency, worrying this fosters further manipulation:
  “We all deserve the truth. And when you have a prisoner who sits there, is able to manipulate things, and they start rewarding him by not unsealing, then...they’re making a standard for others to follow.” (51:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace, on Kohberger’s claim of innocence:
  “He actually fixed his mouth to say it’s my truth.” (02:08)

• Christy Gonsalves:
  “The judge asked you every single one of those questions...So hold on.” (06:11)

• Legal breakdown by Nima Rahmani:
  “He’s got to basically pigeonhole this petition into one of the really four legal arguments...knowing and voluntary, actual innocence, prosecutorial misconduct, or ineffective assistance of counsel.” (08:41)

• On the DNA evidence:
  “It was 5.37 octillion to one likelihood that it was anybody else's DNA on the murder weapon knife sheath.” – Nancy Grace (14:15)

• Joe Scott Morgan, on the violence:
  “We talk about the individual injuries, you know, per person. But, Nancy, I want to give you this number. 150. 150 injuries we’re talking about in total.” (29:45)

• Steve Gonsalves, on the evidence:
  “They pinned that all the way down. Once he turned his phone back on, they knew exactly where it was...we have his GPS.” (23:20–24:12)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:08 – Nancy Grace introduces Kohberger’s petition to withdraw plea
• 06:11 – Christy Goncalves describes when & how she found out
• 07:10–09:09 – Legal options for appeal discussed by Nima Rahmani
• 12:09 – Steve Gonsalves: “I would love for this to be case law in Idaho...”
• 13:25–14:45 – Nate Eaton details overwhelming evidence (video, DNA, Amazon purchase)
• 18:51–20:20 – Family debunks “clump of hair” defense myth
• 21:02–21:40 – Family’s willingness for a full trial
• 25:30–26:29 – Rahmani: How a new trial could legally happen
• 29:45 – Joe Scott Morgan: “150 injuries we’re talking about in total”
• 31:41 – Discussion: What’s next for the case, prosecutor’s possible steps
• 39:23–40:25 – Dr. Bethany Marshall’s analysis of Kohberger’s mentality
• 51:53 – The cost of seeking justice vs. community expense

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Final Takeaways

• Bryan Kohberger is attempting to withdraw his guilty plea and claim innocence, alleging he was tricked and the plea was not voluntary.
• Legal experts agree a new trial is highly unlikely unless his own lawyers allege they were ineffective; otherwise, precedent keeps convictions final.
• The evidence is overwhelming (DNA, digital, surveillance), and the victim families endorse a trial to publicly expose the truth and seek justice.
• The families and experts view Kohberger’s requests as further emotional manipulation, highlighting his lack of empathy and need for control.
• Audience (taxpayers) is reminded that difficult pursuit of justice is worth the expense when weighed against the loss of a loved one.
• Next steps depend on the judge’s decision and the defense’s actions; a drawn-out legal process is expected, but the Gonsalves family is committed to pursuing justice no matter what.

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For those who missed the episode:
Nancy Grace and her panel lay out why Kohberger’s new plea is seen as both a legal long shot and a calculated act of cruelty to the families. The overwhelming case evidence is revisited in detail, legal procedures are explained with clear options ahead, and the episode closes with a sense of grim determination from the victim’s family and experts alike: let the facts be aired and justice delivered—whatever it takes.

Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell tonight. Four time convicted killer Brian Koberger. Do you remember the four beautiful sleeping University Idaho students that were slaughtered in their beds? That Brian Coburger tonight says I'm innocent and he wants to take back his guilty plea. Whoa. Brian Kohberger now says they tricked me into pleading guilty. I know I stood up in court and I said I did it, but I didn't do it. And that's my truth. He actually fixed his mouth to say it's my truth. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for Being with us. What in the H, E, double L.

[Steve Gonzalez]

It is despicable and I cannot believe we're having to talk about him now.

[Nancy Grace]

Four time convicted killer Brian Kohberger now claims he's innocent because he's saying basically they lied to him.

[Parent]

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[Nancy Grace]

They were not passed out. They were all dead at the hands of Brian Kohberger. And tonight, to further twist the families, he says he's innocent and he wants a trial. And you know what I say to that, Mrs. Gonsalves? Bring it on. I agree with him about one thing, Christy. Brian Kohberger says in his handwritten petition, justice was not served. True words were never spoken. Justice was not served because he needs the death penalty.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Absolutely.

[Nancy Grace]

So he's right. There's one phrase in this whole petition that is accurate. Okay with me. You know them well. They are the founders of murder has a name. This is in their beautiful daughter Kelly Gonzalez's memory. In her honor, she was murdered by Brian Kohberger. And they are taking that pain and transforming it into something good. Raising money for DNA kits to be handled and processed to stop killers and get them off the street before more victims fall prey. Christy is with us. Steve Gonzalez is with us. Christy, when did you find out? Brian Coburger, that P. O. S technical legal term, says I'm innocent, I was tricked. I love this part, Christy, that he was misled about life behind bars. Surprise, jelly. What is cracked up to be. Yeah, he figured that out, didn't he?

[Christy Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

When did you find out about this?

[Christy Gonzalez]

I found out pretty early on.

[Chelsea Handler]

About.

[Christy Gonzalez]

About an hour before it started busting at the seams on the media. Steve had called me and I was in the middle of a zoom meeting for murder has a name. And I was like, steve's telling me, call me right away, call me now. And I'm like, I gotta go. Like, he doesn't say that and I called him and he told me, and I was like, you know, what is happening? So took us a minute to find out what exactly his validations that he was having and the reasons for it. But when we heard, we were like, the judge asked you every single one of those questions, you know, so were you coerced? Were you promised anything? Were you on drugs? You know, and everything? And, I mean, it's a plea deal. I think it's pretty straightforward. I think the average IQ person can understand what a plea deal is. It's not something super complicated. So hold on.

[Nancy Grace]

I've got to get to Steve Gonzalez, but I just have to ask Nima Rahmani. Guys, when this first broke, I immediately got on the horn with Ramani. Why? He knows what he's talking about. And we hashed it through Nima Rahmani, former federal prosecutor turned trial lawyer, president of the Former President of the West Coast Trial Lawyers, author of Harvard to Hashtag. You can find him at westcoasttriallawyers.com Nima, this is doable. After you and I talked, I researched the law again, and it confirmed what you and I had talked about. Let me get my notes. Garza v. Idaho. Straight out of Idaho. And that is the Supremes. You remember at the time, they kept saying, he's giving up his right to appeal. This plea deal means it's over forever. I'm like, no, it's not. I don't care what he says. He can always appeal under the Sixth Amendment. There's always an argument to be made that he was tricked, he was hoodwinked, he didn't know what was happening. Ineffective assistance of counsel, yes, but no. That's what they told the victims in court. That was B.S. then we called it, and I'm calling it again. Yes, he can do this. He can appeal his guilty plea. Then he'll be Lockhart. Also the Supremes about how you can't reverse a guilty plea. But practically speaking, Nima, what the hey is going on?

[Nima Rahmani]

Yeah, he's got to basically pigeonhole this petition into one of the really four legal arguments. He's got to argue that the plea wasn't knowing and voluntary. I think it's going to be tough because obviously we all heard the plea colloquy. Right? It was knowing Neymar.

[Nancy Grace]

He's getting his PhD and criminology.

[Nima Rahmani]

I think that's going to be the toughest one.

[Nancy Grace]

It was knowing next. That's out.

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[Nima Rahmani]

Yeah, so let's put that away. The second is if he's actually innocent, obviously that's not going to fly there. There's no way the state is going to consider that. But that's what happened.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm sorry. I just choked. That didn't go down very well. Okay. We can count on actual innocence, too. Okay, that's. Give me your third choice.

[Nima Rahmani]

Yeah. The third is prosecutorial misconduct. Right. And of course the state is never going to concede that, that they withheld Brady information or something. That was impeachment. They didn't comply with their obligations. There's no way the state's going to concede that. So then you're really left with the last one, which is the ineffective assistance of counsel. Right. That's something Ann Taylor said or did. That was Nima.

[Nancy Grace]

Nima. That's it. That's where they're going. Because from what I can gather from this raggedy petition, he's claiming Brady, or Brady v. Maryland, exculpatory material evidence that would tend to prove him innocent or could prove him innocent. It could be something as simple as line of cross examination of a state's witness. And if the defense didn't know about it, then that could have made a difference in whether the jury believed the witness. There's all sorts of permutations about what is exculpatory. He seems to be claiming that the defense withheld Brady material from their own client, that he didn't understand all of the exculpatory evidence. He's going with ineffective and the sod some other dude did it. That's where he's going.

[Nima Rahmani]

So then the question is, what are his lawyers in the state going to say? I can't see any world where the prosecution is going to admit to withholding Brady evidence. So the question is, did his lawyers not provide it to him? Are they going to confess error? If they do and they fall on the sword, then potentially we would have to start this over. The question is, though, I don't think his lawyers are going to do that. This was an amazing deal for him. They saved his life.

[Nancy Grace]

No, that's.

[Christy Gonzalez]

What

[Nancy Grace]

if they think there is a way to get him a new trial? I've seen the best lawyers in town go in court and go, okay, I was ineffective to help their client. Were they ineffective? No, they were not. But they'll say it in a further bid to help their client.

[Witness]

And.

[Nancy Grace]

And you know what I want to happen? I want him to get his wish straight up to Steve Gonzalez. This is Kelly Gonzalez, his father, co founder of Murder Has a Name. Please look it up, Steve. I want the state. Of course. You got to have an independent prosecutor. You can't have that bag of bones up there trying to try this case. That's out. That's over. But I want them to give him his wish. You want any trial, fine. We have regretted the plea ever since we did it, and here's our chance. Why can't we do that, Steve?

[Steve Gonzalez]

I don't know. We get like, 90% of capital cases go out on a plea, and we never make case law. I would love for this to be case law in Idaho and, you know, we got the firing squad. Let it be. I'm very confident. I mean, the evidence, he's. He's an idiot. I mean, the amount of you. You got to see the way that they had his vehicle mapped out with all those cameras, it was going to be powerful. They were literally going to be able to prove that the phone and that car were traveling together and tie it all. So, yeah, stand by it. Let's. Let's put holes in him, you know, let's shoot him. He's done.

[Nancy Grace]

Please, please, please take him to trial. Give him his wish. Straight out to Nate Eaton. He is the news director at East Idaho News, Emmy nominated journalist, host of courtroom insider on YouTube. He has been on this case from the beginning. Nate Eaton. Is this guy actually claiming fabricated horror that they showed him a photo of inside a death row cell and said, you better plead. The guy is getting his PhD in criminology. Nobody made him do anything, did they?

[Nate Eaton]

No, but what's interesting to me, Nancy, is you talk about how he says prison isn't what he expected. In his statement, he said the public is demanding the truth. I'm curious to know which public out there he's talking about that. There's unanswered questions with each new piece of evidence unsealed. Steve mentioned the car, the surveillance footage of his white Elantra that was caught on camera at the home within minutes of, you know, when, before the students were killed and after. What about the K bar knife sheath? Remember that was left behind and DNA tracked to Brian Kohberger. Not only that, he purchased it on Amazon. A K bar knife sheet. So the evidence that we have seen has led directly to Bryan Coburger. I don't know what other evidence he's talking about. He didn't detail it in his statement

[Nancy Grace]

to look at the stat last night. Nate eaton. It was 5.37. 5.37. Octillion to one likelihood that it was anybody else's DNA on the murder weapon knife sheath.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now? It's my understanding.

[Nima Rahmani]

Hold on.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott, here I come. It's my understanding Coburger is stating that there was a, quote, clump of hair in one of the victim's hands and that it suggested another defendant. What I've read elsewhere, and I'm going to confirm this with Christie and Steve Gonsalves, there was one hair that was found that belonged to somebody else. I don't know where that one hair was, but we all know it was the party house. You got four coeds living together. I would be shocked if there weren't parties at their house. There'd be something wrong if there weren't parties at their house. So there's another hair, but his DNA is on the knife sheath. His phone was quieted. He ordered the KA Bar knife. He was out stargazing in that area at the time of the murders. He was the one stalking them over and over and over again. The evidence is overwhelming. So what is the truth about the hair? He's climbing a clump of hair that belonged to somebody else in the victim's hand. But I'm reading the defense forensic scientist said there was one hair that may have belonged to somebody else.

[Christy Gonzalez]

So I have. I have talked to the lead investigator about this specifically and from isp, and he. And I asked when. That. When it came out in the book, and he said, absolutely not. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. He said Ethan's hand had fallen behind the bed, and, you know, obviously blood ran down his arm. It's sticky. The floor, you can't imagine, was not that clean. I mean, you could. Behind any bed is probably not that clean. You know, and debris, dust bunnies, dirt, all kinds of sorts of stuff, you know, stuck to his hand. He was, you know, it stuck to his hand. They packaged him up. I don't, you know, they took him out of the house and, you know,

[Nancy Grace]

they transported him to the medical examiner.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yes.

[Christy Gonzalez]

And. And when they, you know, were looking for evidence and whatnot, this is what he had in his. In his hand or stuck to his hand? It was by no means a clump of hair that the book claims, saying that it was pulled out from the root of somebody's hair.

[Steve Gonzalez]

This is basically gossip, a desperate attempt to find something when you have no evidence that backs anything that you. You've tried to lay out. I mean, he has no alibi. He has nothing. So, yeah, he's. He's gonna look for one photo with one Piece of hair and try to say, what about that? You know?

[Child]

Well, they.

[Christy Gonzalez]

The guy wrote a book about it and made a big deal about it. Everybody freaked out about it and was like, oh, my gosh, the clump of hair in Ethan's hand. And I immediately called, and he was just like, what? And I said, well, this is what this book says. He goes, ridiculous. Absolutely false.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you know what? I just hope they bring that guy on the stand and quote his book on cross examination and say, what? Clump. Why did you say that? Okay, let me just ask y' all straight out. You said you wanted this to go to trial, as do I. Do you still feel the same way, Christy and Steve?

[Christy Gonzalez]

I do. I mean, I would. I would love. Because I think that it would just stop so much of these people just running their mouths in this conspiracy theory at this point, with this much time gone by. I mean, I'd have to, you know, put myself in that state of mind again, which is not an easy state of mind to put yourself in that you're moving. I mean, because we would have to physically move for three months. I mean, we have animals. You know, we just can't travel back and forth. So, you know, we. We would have to make those family adjustments. But, yeah, I mean, we're. If that's what it comes down to, we're all for it.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, what about the possibility, Steve Gonsalves, of the death penalty? You know?

[Christy Gonzalez]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

The firing squad, that thing.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah. Honor. Honor the victims. The four people died from a low life that wasn't even a member of our community. Okay. Complete stranger came into our community and kill people while they go to sleep. If that doesn't, you know, invoke some kind of, like, prosecutor passion to actually uphold the law, then he probably doesn't have one. So, yeah, I'm all for it. You know, that's what they. That's what they decide to do. We'll be there. We'll support the case, and all the people did all the hard work.

[Nancy Grace]

But what do you want, Steve? I mean, it's one thing for me to say, yes, I want a trial because I want to hear the truth. I want the world to know the truth. And we didn't know the truth. With that pathetic showing in court at the time of the plea, your daughter was the only one with the. To stand up and speak the truth. Okay, so I'd like a prosecutor that has a similar set of. Right. Can we find one of those? I'd like to see how this plays out with a real prosecutor, and hear the facts. For instance, tell me what you were saying, Steve, about what was caught on video that maybe the rest of the world doesn't know about regarding his car and the phone and the car traveling together.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, People can actually do this if they understand how AI is. Just go in and tell it. Take every time that this car is on camera and then cross correlate it with the path that is known. And it'll do a pretty good job of showing you what they went on. But when you go back and you confirm the times and the stamps of what he's on there, they pinned that all the way down.

[Christy Gonzalez]

Once he turned his phone back on, they knew exactly where it was, and they said his device was traveling on this road, you know, through this camera, that that was definitely him, you know, so.

[Steve Gonzalez]

So whether all the way back to

[Christy Gonzalez]

stadium, it was somebody else. It was somebody else that had his device and his car traveling. So.

[Nancy Grace]

And when was that, Christy? When was his phone identified traveling along with the car?

[Steve Gonzalez]

When at 4:48, his car turns on, he turns on an app, a map application. At that point, they get further details and exactly where he was. So you cross correlate that with the last time he's there at 4:21 or 4:20, depending on what you're going off. You can say, okay, what path? I think it was 27 minutes. What, where would that get him to? And then you define that448 where he turns it on, and they match.

[Christy Gonzalez]

It was almost exactly the time frame. And then the path back, and it

[Nancy Grace]

is him with his GPS and his phone the night of the murders, going to the murder scene. We know it was him. So all this BS about you didn't get a tag number. We got better than a visual on a tag number. We have his GPS. Explain it 1 more time and put it in slow MO I want to make sure I understand it, Steve.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Okay, so he's, he's seen on the camera called 1111 12, turning right, and it's timestamped at 4:20, maybe 4:21.

[Christy Gonzalez]

Leaving the scene.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, he's taking a right, leaving the scene. He turns his phone on at 4:48. So then they go look at that as a source of truth and say, okay, where we seen him here last? And then we see him down here. That's where he's registered on the cell towers. They do the map and the draft, the time, 27 minutes, it actually gets him exactly where he's turning his phone on.

[Nancy Grace]

NIMA Rahmani FORMER FEDERAL Prosecutor extraordinary attorney. How can I get this thing to trial? Can the state join with Kyberg and go, you want a new trial? Fine, you got it. Put it on the calendar. Can that happen or can the judge stop it?

[Nima Rahmani]

The judge can stop it, but I think the easiest path, and you nailed it, is for the defense to submit a declaration saying that they were ineffective. Look, it's the Strickland test, right? There's a manifest injustice. We didn't tell our client this information. We misled our client. If they put that in writing, it's a done deal. But they got to fall on the sword. And you're right, maybe they want to do that for their client. There's really nothing the judge or the state can do to stop it because we don't know what communications they had with Coburger. And if they confess that type of error, then it's game over and the judge has to grant the motion. And then I'll go to the one of the other 10 or 12 other death penalty qualified lawyers in the state of Idaho. It can't be them defending the case going forward. That is the cleanest, the easiest path. The other way, like you said, is if the state admits some sort of error. I don't think they're going to do that. I think that would also get it done.

[Nancy Grace]

He's not really claiming that. He's claiming. Okay, wait a minute. Name it. You mean this won't work legally? Quote, my actual innocence is my truth, and the plea hinged on false promises, end quote. All caps must be withdrawn. So he was misled about job opportunities behind bars. Okay, I haven't seen that in an appellate record yet. Jail ain't what it's cracked up to be. Give me a new trial, I want out. Okay. That's where this is going. Listen to this.

[Parent]

There was tons of DNA, by the way.

[Nima Rahmani]

Not.

[Parent]

Not.

I don't know why it's been reported it was trace DNA. It was not. It was tons of DNA. There was certainty in the quality of the DNA. There was certainty in the analysis, and there was certainty that there was more than enough information in that tree to get to a person.

[Nancy Grace]

Those are two of the foremost DNA experts in the world, the Middlemans. And that's from our friends at Fox News at crimecon. Okay, Joe Scott. Morgan. Joe Scott.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yep.

[Nancy Grace]

Before you get started, I want to give you. I know you don't need one, but a little reality check about what this case is about.

[Christy Gonzalez]

So I'm going through some of Kaylee's things, and I just Came across the sweatshirt that she was wearing that night.

[Nancy Grace]

And in the pocket, grub truck number 78 ticket. I've been looking for it. It's the first thing that I really found that I've been looking for.

[Christy Gonzalez]

It was in the top of a box and. And when I looked in the pocket and I found that ticket, I was just.

[Nancy Grace]

Takes you back to those hours, those hours right before. Had no idea what was gonna happen to them. Terrible. That's Christy from the Gonzalez family Facebook. Joe Scott. What are we gonna do, man?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

God bless y'.

[Christy Gonzalez]

All.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I. I can't even plumb the depths of this. Getting back to the. To the evidence at hand. I gotta tell you something. And going back to what Steve and Christie had said earlier and let the hide come with hair is what I say. If he wants a fight, bring it on. Because going back to what that clip that you showed of our friends David and Kristen at othram. I felt all along there was going to be a. Just a plethora of DNA evidence. And here's why. I'm going to throw a number out to you that we don't use this number a lot when we're talking about these four precious lives.

[Nima Rahmani]

Okay.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

We talk about the individual injuries, you know, per person. But, Nancy, I want to give you this number. 150. 150 injuries we're talking about in total. Now, that's kind of an approximation because the violence involved in this case you have what were referred to, or what I would refer to as communicating injury. So you have such a concentration of injuries that you'll get this kind of cross pattern where you can't delineate it. And of course, you know, this, this certainly happened with Kaylee. There's just certain things that you can't interpret specifically because of the level of violence. But 150. Nancy, just let that sink in. How are you going to engage in this kind of violence and not have transfer of DNA and you taking on DNA from an individual, I can only imagine where else they're sourcing this from. Points of contact. We go back and, you know, my, my old adage is always the car contact leaves a trace. And that principle holds true here. It's. It's solid as the day is long. And so when you think about the violence that was exacted here. Yeah, I, I think that there's. That there is a solid underpinning of evidence here. And again, if he, you know, if he feels froggy, let's jump, baby, let's roll. Because I want to see this evidence. And going back from a prosecutorial standpoint, I want to see somebody that's actually got the guts to go forward stand up and accuse him and direct him to offer up an explanation for what happened. Of course, we didn't see that because there was no damn allocution that was not required of him. He gets to live on easy Street. That doesn't.

[Chelsea Handler]

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[Child]

Mom, can I have lingo? Kids? Dad, Lingokids, please?

[Parent]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

No idea. Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Child]

This week it's Lingokids.

[Parent]

Why Lingokids?

[Christy Gonzalez]

Because it's the best thing ever.

[Child]

We can play games with astronauts, wild animals, and superheroes.

[Lingokids Advertiser]

With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs, and shows, LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids.

[Parent]

So no dinosaurs and dinosaurs.

[Nancy Grace]

Lingokids.

[Parent]

Everything kids love, download it for free.

[Snap Judgment Host (Glenn Washington)]

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[Kyle McLaughlin]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nima Rahmani Is there any way this can happen? How dare he? After all he has put everybody through. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I don't like jail. This wasn't what it's cracked up to be. I was lied to. I was mistreated. Every sentence starts with I. Is there a way to give him what he wants? Because I'd like to put it three inches right up his tailpipe.

[Nima Rahmani]

Listen, I would love a trial, too. Just like everyone else, I think there's no world where he's actually innocent. He will be convicted. He will be sentenced to death. But I don't think it's going to happen. Nancy, this is a final judgment. The law wants to keep these judgments final. We can't have every criminal defendant claiming

[Nancy Grace]

they're even when both parties don't want it to be final.

[Nima Rahmani]

It's so final.

[Nancy Grace]

Manifest a trial.

[Nima Rahmani]

You can't just.

[Nancy Grace]

I just gave you a U.S. supreme Court that can undo a guilty plea. All this business about a plea is unappealable. That's crap. That's not true. I can't believe they even said that to start with. Do they not have a law book?

[Nima Rahmani]

Well, listen, there has to be a constitutional violation. So if the parties agree that there is a constitutional violation, of course. But they can't just enter into a stipulation. It's not like just putting a piece of evidence in or saying, hey, we want to do over. There has to be a legal basis to unwind this. Absent a constitutional violation, we're not going to be able to get there. It's not enough for the prosecution and the defense to say, you know what? We've changed our mind. We want to do over. This was a bad deal because they the millions of people, and you're thinking

[Nancy Grace]

the best bet is ineffective, ineffective assistance of counsel because actual innocence is not going to work. Not knowing and voluntary, that's not going to work. The prosecutorial, that didn't happen. So all we're left with is ineffective.

[Nima Rahmani]

That's all we're left with. So unless Ann Taylor, you know what?

[Nancy Grace]

He's crazy like a fox, because that's what he's claiming in this petition, that his lawyers did not give him the whole truth, that they withheld exculpatory evidence from him to get him to plead guilty. He's saying it was all a fabrication. Is that what he's saying? Nate Eaton is all a big fabrication? It was a lie.

[Nate Eaton]

That's what he's saying. Nancy, One interesting thing is the attorney general for the state of Idaho came out and said, my office stands ready to do whatever is necessary to ensure justice is fully carried out. He didn't say there's no chance that this will advance, that if the judge denies it, it sounds like the attorney general is ready and willing to help. So let's say a prosecutor from the attorney general's office steps in and says, okay, we'll prosecute the case from the state level. And then Kohberger, who's going to represent him if this proceeds, is he going to represent himself? He's writing his own legal briefs. Will he be appointed?

[Nancy Grace]

No, there are plenty of lawyers that would do it just for the pr. You know, I appreciate what the state AG said, Labrador. But where the hate was the AG when this plea was going down? Okay. When everybody across the country was screaming, including the Gonzalez family, where were they then? You know what? If they're going to come late to the party, great. Come on. But I know that's. But another thing this does is it opens up a possibility the feds might step in because that plea is undone. The feds could jump in. Steve Gonzalez, they could.

[Steve Gonzalez]

We've always had speaks and talks about the feds doing that. And you know, now that they're pro death penalty, before they were kind of wishy washy and they gave a bunch of, you know, petitions so people didn't have to be on the death penalty. Got them off. So, yeah, I would love to see a real prosecuting, you know, service that we, we could get.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Yeah.

[Christy Gonzalez]

We've all often wondered why it wasn't federal, but in the when this happened, it was under Biden administration. FBI told us then they could prosecute, but they could not prosecute for death penalty. So we were like, just leave it with Bill Thompson, then leave it with Lato County. So obviously things have changed and he's not. They're no longer under the Biden administration and the FBI can pursue the death penalty. So that would be great. Best of the best.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us now, Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Hulu, on Peacock, on Netflix, brand new hit podcast, on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. okay, hit it. Bethany. Thoughts?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Well, Mr. And Mrs. Gonsalves, I loved your most recent Facebook post about the fact that Brian Kohberger is a mosquito you can't seem to squash. But, you know, sadly, it's worse. My clinical experience leads me to believe that you are only the person, the only people he can victimize right now. In other words, he's a killing machine. He likely had other victims on the radar. Likely the family of the existing four were on the radar, meaning you were in his on his radar. And you know, he has too much time. Free access to a law library. He's in solitary confinement. So how does he act out his murderous impulses? Without a victim right in front of him, without access to future victims, what does he do? He lashes out at you. That's worse than a mosquito. That's somebody who, if he was not behind bars, would maybe have you in his sights.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany, I want your analysis. He's basically saying, my defense team, they all lied to me. They fabricated this whole thing and they misled me about life behind bars. Translation, guess what? Jail ain't what it's cracked up to be. Dr. Bethany.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Well, our most strongest impulse is the survival instinct, right? So he wants to survive, he wants to be out. He's delusional. He thinks he might get out. He's a criminal law, you know, student, PhD student. And so he thinks he's above the law and he can twist the law, but I think primarily it's all self referential. And you know, Nancy, interestingly, he is throwing his defense team under the bus, which shows me how dispensable everybody is to him. His mother and father now have to come into court. They have cried in previous appearances and when he's, you know, been in court and in various cases. Appearances. And now he's subjecting his family to torture, as well as the Gonzalez family and all the other families. So they're dispensable to his own family? Would they have been on the radar as well? It's hard to know.

[Parent]

She's not waking up. Okay, one moment. I'm getting help. Started that way. Okay. And how old is she? 20. You said. Hello? Hello? Okay, I need someone to stop passing the phone around because I've talked to four different people. Hey, sorry, they just gave me the phone. Is she breathing? Chemo. Hello? Is she breathing? No. Okay, we're clear.

[Christy Gonzalez]

Let me just secure the outside first.

[Nancy Grace]

There's a back entry.

[Christy Gonzalez]

I was going to start taping it all off.

[Nancy Grace]

I got in there,

[Witness]

And then all of a sudden, I heard walking up, I heard a scream. And she ran upstairs because she saw someone. That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She. Someone's here, and she's screaming. Just ran downstairs. And I called for her name, but I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And then I heard someone in the bathroom, and I heard her crying. And I heard some guy say that, you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. And I kept calling her name, but she wasn't answering. And then I opened the door for a second, and I saw this guy.

[Nancy Grace]

From our Friends at Law and Crime, Christy. While we are bandying back and forth the possibilities of a trial, that is what happened. We may have a chance at justice, Christy.

[Christy Gonzalez]

Absolutely.

[Steve Gonzalez]

And that's why we asked for concessions. We knew that this was going to happen. We actually foretelled the whole thing. And people looked at us like we were crazy. And we're like, well, we're talking about a psychopath who literally has a search history on his phone saying, psychopath paranoia. I think people are after me. All that stuff. Phone being tapped. He's a psychopath. So of course he's going to try to do everything in his possible power to try to drag us through the mud and put us through all this. And I just needed a prosecutor who just do concessions. Just a couple, man. All he needed to do was get just a couple, and we. This all would have went away.

[Christy Gonzalez]

I mean, we did want the trial, but when we found out it was a plea, we begged. We have emails, we have phone calls. We had meetings. We were begging for some sort of concessions. Can we at least ask this. Can we at least have them, you know, admit to this or ask them where this is? And they were just like, no.

[Steve Gonzalez]

We went so far to tell our audience on our Facebook to call Hipler, you are from Idaho. Be respectful and call and say, hey, decline this plea deal. That's the only option we have. According to our legal counsel. That's all we could do.

[Christy Gonzalez]

The judge could.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Could have said into that they. He got so upset about it. He said, I'm going to turn each one of these people to the police.

[Christy Gonzalez]

He yelled at us in court at the plea deal. He yelled at us.

[Steve Gonzalez]

And I was like, you're an elected official. And said that we, these are voting matters.

[Christy Gonzalez]

We interrupted the day of court and people weren't able to get their jobs done. The receptionists weren't able to answer their phones, their emails were full, their voicemails were full. And it wasn't like I was privy to his email address or the phone number and that I gave out. We were just like, contact the judge, contact the court.

[Steve Gonzalez]

He's an elected official, so it is what it is.

[Christy Gonzalez]

And yeah, we got in the beginning, if you listen to the plea deal and he's chewing somebody out, it's us.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm not saying it is what it is. I'm saying take the case to trial for once, prosecutor, do the right thing for the Coburger victim's family. Tell me something, Joe Scott Morgan Professor, Forensics, Jacksonville State University Author, star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan death Investigator Joe Scott Just tell me we can get a conviction, right, if we take this thing to trial, Right?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah. Let's think. Let's think about the forensic evidence from the perspective of engineering. You have a framework that's laid out here, okay? And I'm not saying that it is absolutely perfect. There is nothing in our world that is perfect. However, if you look from an evidentiary standpoint, from a physical evidence standpoint, from a digital standpoint, it's all there. It's there that you just have to have somebody that has the intestinal fortitude to hang everything on this structure, to build it out, to push it forward. That's why I said earlier, if he wants to do this, do it, absolutely do it. But again, it's, you know, we can only do so much at a crime scene, in a lab, at the ME's office. All we can do is just offer up our findings. And still it baffles me to this day, after all of these years, that they did not have the ability within themselves to call upon themselves to say, hey, we got a slam dunk here, we're going to move this forward. For some reason, they decided to go down this road, but it still exists, Nancy. All of this hard work still exists. All they have to do is take those first steps and maybe even more.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott because you know how evidence and witnesses seem to come out of the woodwork once it's all said and done. Or so they think. Okay? Dr. Bethany Marshall. He sees this as justice getting a trial. He's not happy with life behind bars. Isn't there some kind of clinical name for this guy?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Selfish, self absorbed, fits criteria for a psychopath. Not only in that he is creating Some sense of excitement by going to the law library and then writing up these scribbled, handwritten and also, you know, text briefs. But the fact that he continues to have access to victims through these filings, that's what I think. I, what I really want to put front and center is this person is homicidal. This person compulsively wants to kill. He wants to draw blood. He, if he is denied access to that, what is he going to do? He's going to kill and draw blood in other ways. It's just like an alcoholic who is told they can never drink again, so they start ordering mocktails or they, they romanticize the drink. He's romanticizing the process because it is exciting. Psychopaths, they suffer from under arousal and internal emptiness. They cannot find joy. And in the small things in life, they only find joys in highly stimulating situation which is usually, usually killing. If he can't be stimulated in that way, he's stimulating himself through self pity and preoccupation with the victim's families.

[Nancy Grace]

Nate Eaton News Director, East Idaho News Nate, what happens now? Has the judge even bothered to put a hearing on the, on the calendar as of today?

[Nate Eaton]

There's no hearing on the calendar, but I would imagine the judge will have to hold a hearing on this. Kohberger will appear in court, likely with his counsel that he's had all along. If they decide to say they're ineffective of counsel, as we've discussed on this program today, then he could be appointed new attorneys. The judge could take it under advisement, issue a ruling, say no, there's no grounds here. But I imagine Kohberger will take this all the way to the Supreme Court. I could see him continually filing these things. If a new trial date is set, Nancy, I think it's going to be at least a year out, maybe two years out. It's a death penalty case. You have to line things out. So this is something that unfortunately it's going to take months, perhaps years.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, fine, I can do that. Final word, Kristi and Steve.

[Christy Gonzalez]

Well, we're just going to have to see what happens. We're just going to have to see what the judge does. Be there at the court appearances like we were before and follow it through. I mean, all we were able to do before was just roll with the punches and that's all we're going to be able to do now. I mean, it's, it's, it's all in the judge's hands and, and obviously the council at this point, if they're going to say, yes, we were ineffective, or the prosecution and state say, yes, we lied about exclusive evidence. It's completely out of our hands. And all we could do is show up. And, and we will continue to do that.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, I hope his day of manipulating all these court processes come to an end. We were unsealing things. Things were slowly coming out. I hope that doesn't come to an end. We all deserve the truth. And when you have a prisoner who sits there, is able to manipulate things, and they start rewarding him by not unsealing, then, you know, they're making, they're making a standard for others to follow. So let's hope.

[Christy Gonzalez]

And, and, and I do want to say that I'm sorry to the state of Idaho, to the community that, you know, as taxpayers, that this is $8 million. This has been so expensive and just continues to run. And I see a lot of people say, you know what? We don't want to, you know, end it because of the cost. I understand that. But on the other hand, you know, this is our child, and if it was your child, you know, you might feel a little differently. But we do understand that, you know, we don't want to dismiss that. But how much is your child worth?

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yep.

[Christy Gonzalez]

You know, there's, there's no dollar amount that you can put on that.

[Nancy Grace]

Everyone whines about our tax dollars being misspent. Finally, our tax dollars would be spent for a good cause. Nothing to complain about there. We wait as justice unfolds. God willing. Finally, in this case, thank you to our guests, but especially to you being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off. And I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

[Chelsea Handler]

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[Child]

Mom, can I have Lingokids? Dad, Lingokids, please.

[Parent]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

No idea. Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Child]

This week it's Lingokids.

[Parent]

Why Lingokids?

[Christy Gonzalez]

Because it's the best thing ever.

[Child]

We can play games with astronauts, wild animals and superheroes.

[Lingokids Advertiser]

With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows, LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids.

[Parent]

So no dinosaurs and dinosaurs.

[Nancy Grace]

Lingokids.

[Parent]

Everything kids love. Download it for free.

[Kyle McLaughlin]

Hi, it's Kyle McLaughlin, host of the what Are We Even Doing podcast. You know, my favorite part of the morning is that first cup of coffee. A small, quiet ritual that sets the rhythm for my day. That's why I appreciate DE'. Longhi. For over 50 years, they've combined Italian craftsmanship and thoughtful design. And as the number one espresso machine brand in the world, they make it effortless. Just a damn fine cup of coffee in your own kitchen. Right now, you can save 10% off your purchase at DeLonghi.com with code Kyle at checkout. After all, if it's not Italian, is it even espresso?

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[Nancy Grace]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.