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[00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I heart podcast.
[00:03]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
Guaranteed human this episode sponsored by Jace Medical. It's 11pm the pharmacy is closed and you need meds now. That's exactly why Jace Medical helps you prepare before emergencies happen. With the Jace case from Jace Medical, you can get 10 emergency medications and treatment options for over 50 infections shipped to your home after an online physician evaluation. Whether you're traveling abroad, stuck during a storm or dealing with a fast moving infection, Jace Medical helps you have medication on hand when it matters most. Go to jace medical@jace.com that's J-A-S-E.com join the thousands who trust Jace Medical and get your Jace case now at J-A-Com
[00:50]
Nancy Grace
crime stories with Nancy Grace. One thing we have to address in this theory that Bryan Kohberger did not act alone, I don't buy it. Nothing has convinced me otherwise yet. But believe me, if there is another assailant, I want them behind bars. Now I'm hearing Brian Kohberger can sue.
[01:17]
Dylan Mortensen
Sue who?
[01:18]
Nancy Grace
Look at the grubhub truck. They're hugging people and talking to people. That's very, very easy to transfer DNA, right? Brian Kohberger's casual conversation with a clerk, a conversation about the murders he just committed.
[01:39]
Christy Gonzalez
Crimes are getting harder and harder to commit because people are getting really, really good at solving things.
[01:46]
Steve Gonzalez
And we're going to go help other families solve their cases. We'll close those gaps between funding and a lab that's sitting there waiting for funding. We're not just going to sit back and just wait for stuff to happen. We're going to make things happen.
[02:07]
Nancy Grace
Joining us tonight, crime stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, what's the latest?
[02:13]
Dave Mack
Nancy, this is shocking information coming out of the documentary the Idaho College Nightmare. It's on Netflix right now, directed by Sky Borgman. And there's an interview with surviving roommate Bethany Funk. She's the woman who came eye to eye with the bushy haired stranger who is fleeing the scene of the massacre at 4:20 in the morning. Okay. Bethany Funk tells police that Kaylee Gonzalez got really weirded out when she took her dog Murphy out to do his business in the days prior to the murders. She tells Bethany Funk that while she's out there with Murphy alone, she saw a man in in the tree line staring at her. Now it's different. You know, you live in a neighborhood for a period of time, Nancy. You go outside, you see a neighbor or whatever, you wave at him, right? Hey, how you doing? That didn't happen. This encounter with this person, this man she described staring at her happened in such a way that is so unnerved Kaylee Gonzalez that she shared this with Bethany Funk. Now, at this point in time, the documentary presents this as it bothered Kaylee enough that she did report it before the murders to her roommate. And now the possibility that she is being stalked or watched comes to the forefront. Who was the target of the attack by Bryan Coburger? Was it Kaylee Gonzalez? Was Brian Coburger the bushy haired man, staring at her while she walked her dog?
[03:40]
Nancy Grace
Nate Eaton, News Director, East Idaho News. Nate, what happens now?
[03:46]
Nate Eaton
Well, Nancy, Bryan Kohberger, of course we know, filed his motion for a new trial saying that he is innocent, that he didn't obtain justice, that he was basically fooled into pleading guilty a year ago. The judge in the case has received the motion and has just recently, this week ruled that Bryan Kohberger will now get a new attorney to, to assist him with the proceedings moving forward. So what will likely happen is a hearing will be scheduled. Coburger will appear there with likely the counsel he's had. He's claiming that they've been ineffective, that they've been ineffective counsel, and he needs new attorneys. If they agree to that and decide not to fight it, which I don't know why they would fight it, they could say, you're right, we're going to let him go on his way. A new attorney comes on the case, then it becomes a matter of whether he has actual legal standing to carry this forward. And that's when Judge Steven Hipler will have to decide. Okay, yeah, maybe he proves a point here, here or here or not. He'll go through the plea agreement that was entered. He'll go through the things that Bryan Coburger signed. I know we've talked about it here on your program, Nancy. The plea agreement he signed a year ago, he verbally agreed to it. The judge was very specific in asking him, do you understand this? Are you accepting responsibility? You know, he very much laid out point by point by point and then the judge will ultimately decide, okay, yes, there's enough to move it forward or no, I imagine Bryan Kohberger will appeal this. I imagine this will go all the way to the Supreme Court and then they will decide. And then once it's there, once the Supreme Court has decided, nope, it's not gonna go any further. He's, he's stuck. I mean, he can't do anything further unless significant new evidence comes out down the line. If the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeals or the local Judge decides, okay, he's got a point here. Then it's a whole new game. Then we prepare for trial. Nancy, I have been to the prison where Bryan Kohberger is staying. There's a couple of different prisons. He's in the maximum security institution. Then there's the general population, you could call it institution. I've been through there. That is a normal, quote, unquote, normal prison where the inmates have jobs, they make licenses, there's a wood shop where they can actually go in and build things and they can put in a wood floor. I mean, these are the average sort of inmates that don't cause any problems. And within that prison, there's different levels. There's minor security, medium and maximum. Brian Kohberger is in a completely different facility down the road. This is maximum security. Because he is so high profile, he is likely. They haven't released much about him because everybody wants to know, but we assume he's in isolation. He is not out mingling with the other people in prison. He's not out working. We don't assume, because these are some of the issues that he brought up in his filing, that prison wasn't like what he was told it would be like. So if he was told, oh, it's going to be like this, you're making license plates, you're in the workshop, you're making wooden things, you're going to school, getting an education, maybe that's what he thought it would be. But this is the highest profile criminal in Idaho, in the nation, one of the highest. They're not gonna let him out because you would imagine that other inmates in this maximum security institute are gonna have something to say to him or perhaps something to do to him. So early on, when he was first booked, that leaked prison security footage showed him in a cell, walking around, pacing. He had his cot, his bed, he has a toilet, he's got a sink. He's able to order items from the commissary, which could be anything from soda to candy to crackers, whatever, a TV. But I would imagine he's in there by himself 23 hours a day. He probably gets out one hour a day, maybe 30 minutes to go out to the rec yard, which would be maybe a 12 by 12, 15 by 15 concrete walled area with a fence on the roof. And you get to walk around. There might be a ball out there. There might be a pole with a volleyball that you can hit around. I mean, very, very simple type of things. Many would argue he shouldn't even get that. So there's that facility. Now, if he were on death row, which, if this goes to trial and if he's convicted and if he gets the death penalty, there's a separate area, once the governor signs the order for to put someone to death, that the inmates then go into a separate building. So for now, he's in the maximum security prison, not having much social interaction. He complained earlier that he wasn't getting the food he wanted, that people were taunting him through the vents. They were able to yell things and say things to him. And I would imagine anytime he might have to walk through the area where other inmates see him, I would not doubt for one second if they have words to say to him. You know, the Netflix special has a lot of people talking about the Idaho four, the four victims who tragically lost their lives in this. I think that the timing. They released this Netflix show basically a year after the plea agreement. I think there was some purposeful timing in that Bryan Kohberger also had a limited of time to file his motion for post conviction relief. And so he had to get that in. So the timing just happened to be there together. I will say that there are a lot of people here in Idaho who I've spoken with who just want him to go away. They're done. They're done with him. They realize that the families have a say and obviously that is important. Some of the families don't want this to proceed. They want him to go away. Other people, though, that I speak with say, okay, yeah, if he wants a trial, sure, let's have the trial. What evidence does he have? What more is there out there that we don't know about? I mean, in one aspect, if you do have the trial, at least at that point, the prosecution and the defense, whatever evidence they might have, they bring it all out. It's all there in one, six week, two month, three month trial, it all comes out so that it's not every four weeks. New evidence, new phone calls, new recordings, whatever it is like how it's been the past year. I mean, this might continue for another five, ten years. Either way, if we get a trial, they're gonna. If he gets new attorneys, the attorneys are gonna have to go through all of the discovery. The state will have to prepare a case. There wouldn't. And if it's a death penalty, there wouldn't be a trial at least for another year or two. So you've got all those years. The victims have to go through this all again. If there's not a trial, there will still be people out There saying that there needs to be. So it's kind of an interesting spot. It's just very sad about how this affects the true victims, the families of these poor students, and also, you know, the taxpayers. $8 million plus is what has been spent on this case so far. Far more than that, I imagine, and it'll continue to be spent. So for now, we wait and see, Nancy, when the next hearing will be and what will happen if Kohberger will show up and actually speak. Read his brief, he might have more to say. If he kind of takes upon the approach of, I'm gonna represent myself, which would be interesting to see, or. Or if he's more quiet, like how he has been at previous hearings, and he lets his attorneys, whether they're no longer his attorneys speak or the new attorneys, we'll see. And then Judge Hipler will likely lay out a timeline, and he could issue a written order after the fact saying denied, or he could decide to advance it further up and call for more hearings.
[11:26]
Nancy Grace
Joining us now, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit play podcast, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes of all sorts under his belt. Okay, Joe Scott, what do you make of that?
[11:48]
Joe Scott Morgan
Nancy, I got to tell you, I'm. I'm not necessarily shocked by this news. I kind of felt like that it was going to be coming down the pike. I think that. I don't know if it necessarily took us all by surprise. However, I didn't necessarily expect it to happen this soon. And so I'm wondering exactly what kind of advice is being whispered in his ear right now? Or is it just him thinking about it as he's sitting around trying to understand what his next moves are in a place that he does not want to be? So I don't. I don't know if this is just a waste of time at this point in time. I can tell you this, though, based upon just statements made by the Middlemans. We've heard a lot about DNA that was found on the knife sheath. Right. How many times have we heard that The Middlemans indicate that there is far more DNA and biological evidence that has been recovered. So, yeah, I mean, he's sitting there cooling his heels at this point in time, but you talk about a tough hill to climb, because we're not just talking about just maybe a single point on that. That snap on that knife. Now. They're alluding to the fact that there are many More other samples from the scene. And you know, they're not just going to say this just to be saying something. What they're implying is that these items have been tied back back to him, however many there are. And the thing about DNA is that when you get results from that, those numbers suddenly become exponential. And that in and of itself is a problem for him because that makes it tougher and tougher to defeat.
[13:44]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
This episode sponsored by Jace Medical. It's 11pm the pharmacy is closed and you need meds now. That's exactly why Jace Medical helps you prepare before emergencies happen. With the Jace case from Jace Medical, you can get 10 emergency medications and treatment options for over 50 infections shipped to your home after an online physician evaluation. Whether you're traveling abroad, stuck during a storm or dealing with a fast moving infection, Jace Medical helps you have medication on hand when it matters most. Go to jase medicalase.com that's J-A-E.com join the thousands who trust Jace Medical and get your Jace case now at J-A-Com
[14:29]
Nancy Grace
crime stories with Nancy Grace. Doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Hulu, on Peacock, on Netflix. Brand new hit podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her at Dr.bethanymarshall.com, okay, hit it Bethany. Thoughts?
[14:58]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Well, first of all, Kohberger is obsessive. We know that from his history, from his actions. You know, he kept a lot of contact information on his phone of other women. We know he probably stalked the Moscow four. We know also that he surveilled the house. I mean, he's meticulous. He used gloves. He tried to get rid of the garbage from his home. So everything is thought out. Think about a perpetrator who actually goes to a criminal justice program as a precursor for committing a crime. Somebody who actually sends out a survey asking how did you feel during the commission of the crime. This is somebody who lives in their head. So we what does that tell me about why he may have withdrawn the plea deal? It tells me that this gives him another opportunity to obsess, to perseverate, to tell his story. Also, he's been thinking a lot. Now that he's in solitary confinement, he only bathes twice a day. When he goes out, it's in a cage. He has access to the law library. That's a lot of time to think. So this would be not only consistent, consistent with his baseline personality, but it's also consistent with the profile of somebody who's sociopathic. I've never met him or examined him, but sociopaths tend to convince themselves of their own reality. Whatever they think is true becomes true. So he might, you know, be telling himself, I didn't really do that, or I wasn't served up. Justice in court. And, you know, now is going to be my day in court. And the third factor, you know, we have this saying that, you know, psychotics build castles. We have the saying neurotics build castles in the sky. Psychotics live in them. He may be living in his own delusional castle, where he believes he has come up with a very reasonable defense. And he's grandiose, he's better than the attorneys, and he's going to handle the defense himself. I find it fascinating that Kohberger has withdrawn the plea for two reasons. I believe he was a budding serial killer. And one of the things we know about serial killers is that they, and people who commit homicide and domestic homicide in general, especially if there's a sexually motivated aspect of the crime, they want to relive the crime. They collect fetishes. They, Scott Peterson drove to the bay. They surveil the area where they dumped the body. I mean, there's a lot of reliving. And going to court would be yet another opportunity to relive the crime. Now, remember, these crimes do tend to be sexually motivated. He can only sit in his solitary confinement and masturbate and live in his head, metaphorically, for so many hours a day. I mean, it's got to stop. In fact, one of the things I see with sex addicts in my practice, especially if there's an aggressive component, if they watch bdsm porn or sadism towards victims, is they. They like to prolong ejaculation as long as possible. In other words, to live in a state of arousal. And there's only so much material in your own head, you know, if you're living in solitary confinement. So going to court might be another way to collect material, you know, to see women sitting in the court, to see people crying, which should be feed into sexual sadism, to go over the details of the crime. So he might be, you know, tired of his own fantasy world and needing to enter another.
[18:48]
Investigator or Interviewer
Ran downstairs.
[18:49]
Dylan Mortensen
Yes, I could hear. You can hear everything. And I told her to run downstairs really fast. And then I heard Murphy barking a lot.
[18:59]
Unknown Interviewee
Okay.
[19:00]
Dylan Mortensen
And then I heard her going to the bath. I think it was the bathroom. And I remember her sobbing. And I just remember hearing this guy's voice and I didn't recognize, saying, you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. But it wasn't like. I don't know how to explain it. Like, it wasn't in, like a nice way. It was like a weird way. Like a weird tone.
[19:16]
Investigator or Interviewer
You're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. Yeah. And you didn't hear anything from Kaylee anymore?
[19:23]
Dylan Mortensen
Oh, dead. I didn't hear anything. And then me and Maddie pick out
[19:28]
Investigator or Interviewer
Murphy, and then Murphy's the dog. Yeah.
[19:31]
Dylan Mortensen
And then I went inside to go to bed, and she was still coming out.
[19:37]
Nancy Grace
You see what's happening here? All the speculation about the dog. He had been there before, and he had befriended the dog. He knew Murphy, and Murphy was part Murphy. The dog was part of the scenario that night.
[19:56]
Investigator or Interviewer
She's saying this morning on the floor, there's a guy, black mask, wasn't there. She didn't recognize him. She heard girls screaming upstairs. She got scared, locked herself in the room, and then the screaming all stopped. She's pretty sure that this masked person went out that back. And right now I'm getting all victim information. She knows where the two girls are up there. I haven't told her who's deceased, anybody that. They just have four people that are unaccounted for right now which.
[20:35]
Chris Madonna
Whose dog?
[20:36]
Investigator or Interviewer
Who owns a dog.
[20:38]
Nancy Grace
And again, as Sidney told us earlier, we find out the only one that knew what had really happened was Hunter Johnson, the kid that had his hands up over his head in anguish. Listen to Hunter Johnson.
[20:54]
Investigator or Interviewer
I forgot you're here, man. Do you still want to hang out here? Yeah, I don't know how much I'm allowed to disclose. Right now we're processing what's going on in the scene. As soon as we know for sure, we can tell you guys what's going on. We absolutely will. I know it sucks to be in the dark with this, but. Okay, and what's your. What's your relationship again?
[21:32]
Unknown Interviewee
Okay.
[21:36]
Investigator or Interviewer
Yeah, man. As soon as. As soon as I know we're able to fill you in on what's going on, we'll. There's a back entry. I was going to start taping it all off. Okay. I got in there. Here.
[21:56]
Nancy Grace
The officer trying to secure it, saying, I've got two. I got two right here. Talking about two dead bodies. I got two right here already. The house is clear. In other words, the suspect's not there. There's not a live suspect there. The house is clear to walk through. And they shut the dog, which is common because you don't know when the dog's gonna go crazy and start biting. You shut the dog in there. I'm curious where he shut the dog. But before I analyze that, I want you to hear more from the survivors. This is Dylan Mortensen. Listen.
[22:35]
Investigator or Interviewer
All right, what do you remember seeing what started?
[22:38]
Dylan Mortensen
I remember I was in my room and I was trying to go to bed. And I heard Kaylee, who ex girlfriend who has a dog in the.
[22:46]
Investigator or Interviewer
Real fast, which one is your room?
[22:48]
Dylan Mortensen
Kay?
[22:48]
Investigator or Interviewer
Which one is your room? What room are you in?
[22:51]
Howard Bloom
You.
[22:52]
Investigator or Interviewer
You were in that room.
[22:53]
Dylan Mortensen
My room. Not Xena's room. My room.
[22:56]
Investigator or Interviewer
And your room is. Is this one right here next to stairs.
[22:58]
Dylan Mortensen
That one. Second floor.
[23:03]
Investigator or Interviewer
Okay.
[23:05]
Dylan Mortensen
All I heard was. I heard go upstairs like, okay, I'm going to go to sleep now, cuz she's going upstairs.
[23:10]
Investigator or Interviewer
You heard who go upstairs?
[23:11]
Dylan Mortensen
Kaylee and the dog. Murphy.
[23:15]
Investigator or Interviewer
And upstairs to the very top.
[23:16]
Dylan Mortensen
Yeah, that's where her room is.
[23:18]
Nancy Grace
Sydney, what is probative about that body cam we just showed? What does this prove, Sydney?
[23:28]
Sydney
So first we have to get in our minds that the entire time Dylan insists Haley went upstairs, Kaylee screamed, Kaylee ran down the stairs. And the officer even points this out later. He. He says to another officer, she somehow knows. She was somehow able to discern this was Kaylee. But we don't think that's actually true. So we have to think about the layout of the house. So Kaylee and Maddie were asleep upstairs. Zanna's room was on the second floor where Dylan's room was. So the only thing that makes sense for somebody to have ran down those stairs is Zanna. Not Kaylee, not Maddie. So we have to get that in our heads as we're listening to Dylan's recollection of events. But it just proves to me that someone was there. These women are correct. Someone was in their house.
[24:25]
Nancy Grace
Sid, do you think at the time when we think Kelly was saying, hey, I'm going to go to bed, I'm going to go to sleep. Do you think he was already in the house? Because now I believe that he was already in there waiting for them to go to sleep. I don't think that they all went to their beds and then he snuck in.
[24:44]
Sydney
I agree with you. And we also learned later that Maddie was the last person to take Murphy out. So Maddie checks in with Dylan and Bethany one more time. Hey, I lost Murphy. I can't get him to come inside. Is he with either of y'?
[25:00]
Unknown Interviewee
All?
[25:00]
Sydney
She's looking for the dog. So again, this Dog, who they described for weeks was on edge before the murders, who was constantly going off into the woods and wouldn't come back when called. Just acting very, very oddly, does the same thing this night when they're taking him out for the last time. So I'm kind of feeling like someone was watching as they took the dog out for the very. And maybe snuck in just behind them as they brought the dog in.
[25:31]
Nancy Grace
Leading the throng illegal eagles that insist Kohberger did not act alone is renowned author Howard Bloom. He wrote the definitive book on the Idaho murders, When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho student murders. Howard, explain yourself.
[25:54]
Howard Bloom
Well, first, let me offer up a caveat to what you just said. I'm not saying he acted alone. I'm saying the theory deserves attention. And it deserves attention after all the documents we've seen in recent days, which include an analysis of what happened by the defense's own witness, Dr. Brent Turvey. He raises many of the questions that I came about independently. If you look at the devastation, this wasn't just a stabbing. This was a massacre. The four students were stabbed over 150 times in totality. I mean, try raising your hand 150 times. And this happens, the police say, within a 13 window.
[26:40]
Dylan Mortensen
Wait a minute.
[26:40]
Nancy Grace
Hold on, hold on, hold on. The photo. Brian Kohberger thinking he looks all buff, showing off all of his muscles. This guy worked out all the time and was constantly flexing himself. So you're telling me, oh, dear Lord in heaven. I asked for it, and boy, did
[26:59]
Howard Bloom
I get a skinny kid. But whatever.
[27:03]
Nancy Grace
So you don't see those muscles on his. He's got some guns going on right there. So you're telling me you're basing your theory on the fact that he's too skinny and scrawny to raise his arm 150 times? I mean, women do that.
[27:17]
Howard Bloom
I'm not saying that for an hour
[27:18]
Nancy Grace
all the time and two floors of
[27:21]
Howard Bloom
a house in the darkness. And also, both the prosecution and defense have said that there's a possibility that another weapon was used, that Kelly received wounds from another weapon, that there was. They also are both agree that there is a possibility that they were staging. That the victims were covered up with a comforter and they moved them around. That also that there was a cleanup afterwards. But the prosecution is not denying that that's a possibility, too. I think all these elements, as that are laid out by the defense statements raise questions that need to be looked at. I think we're seeing things when we look at the New evidence when released that really don't fit into the timeline.
[28:09]
Nancy Grace
I want to talk about not only the 150 stab wounds and Howard Bloom's assertion one person could not do that. I mean, wait, wait just a minute. Susan Hendricks, don't you recall the case of a female murdering a male with 100 plus stab wounds during some crazy sex play? Remember that?
[28:32]
Susan Hendricks
Oh, yes, yes, I believe it is possible here. And clearly we've seen it in other cases as well. And by the way, the two weapons, I think it was the back of the knife and the blade. I think that's what the prosecutor meant.
[28:45]
Nancy Grace
What do you mean with Kaylee?
[28:47]
Susan Hendricks
She had some injuries that may have been. She was injured by the back of the knife toward. In her facial area and her teeth.
[28:56]
Nancy Grace
That explains a lot. Okay. Dr. Kendall crowns hearing Susan Hendricks explanation. The back or the hilt of the knife being used, would that make a difference in your analysis at all?
[29:08]
Joe Scott Morgan
So the back of the hilt of the knife being used. To me, it could go along with the injuries you're seeing, the blunt force injuries. And also it could be the knife being driven in all the way to the hilt being a very deep stab wound, leaving injuries as well. So to me, it just all goes along with the fact that it's a single individual causing all these wounds. They just switch up what they're doing with their one weapon.
[29:34]
Nancy Grace
You know, I believe her name was Bryn Specher, Susan Hendricks, who was convicted of stabbing her boyfriend over 100 times. And then of course there's Jodi Arias who stabbed Travis Alexander 30 plus times and didn't have a problem with it at all. But for some reason, Howard Bloom, you seem to think that while these two women could perform, could murder with a knife stabbing over and over and over, you don't think Kohberger could do it.
[30:06]
Howard Bloom
The cases you're talking about involves just one victim here. We're talking about four different victims on two floors of the house in darkness. And we know that at least two of them fought back. And the prosecution itself has raised the possibility of a second weapon. All these pieces come together, I think, to raise the possibility that there might well have been another assailant. Added on to the motive, added on to Kohberger's statement. Was anyone else arrested? It raises a lot of doubts. And to use Dylan Mortensen as a witness. Well, her testimony has been very mercurial. It's changed throughout the many interviews she's given with the police. I mean, I feel for her. She's a victim in all this. But at the same time, she is not the most reliable witness.
[30:55]
Nancy Grace
Okay, straight back to you, Chris. Madonna, could you shed some light on the theory that there were two assailants now that you've heard where Bloom is coming from?
[31:04]
Chris Madonna
Sure. That's, you know, one of the questions that's not being asked is what's in Brian Kohberger system that evening? One of the last homicides I worked was a single individual that had slaughtered some folks. And the knife went on full auto. There were hundreds of stab wounds. And as the doc has said, and as Susan was reported, that that knife, that K bar knife, the back of the hilt of that knife I believe was utilized and the blood evidence shows it on Kaylee excessively as well as Zanna excessively. And that's probably the two weapon theory here. What we're not asking though is what was going on in Brian Kohberger's system. We know what the toxicology results are for the victims. They were incapacitated, they were sleeping. But Bryan Kohberger, in that eight hour time that was just brought up, came back to the scene to see his work that morning. You know, and if in fact this was a two perpetrator problem, whether not the sharpest tools in the shed because somebody came up with the idea of leaving the knife sheath there.
[32:24]
Nancy Grace
So not just one idiot, but two. Yeah, that's. That's kind of hard to take in. So, Howard Bloom, you also point out DNA on the stairwell and on a glove. I believe that Chris McDonough spotted the glove, as did I at the time, out in the parking lot. And I believe, Chris, you're the one that showed it to police. So I guess, Howard Bloom, you're using that as fodder for your two perp theory, the DNA?
[32:56]
Howard Bloom
No, I'm raising the question why wasn't that DNA analyzed? Why wasn't the prosecution going and the Idaho State Police going through the trouble, really just taking the time to put this through the DNA file and try to find out who it belonged to. It seems that when you don't want to know the answers to questions, they didn't ask them.
[33:20]
Nancy Grace
Susan Hendricks, isn't it true that the state tried to get a DNA match on that speck of DNA? And regarding the handrail, that could have been anybody. This was a party house that was in and out of the house. But didn't they try to get a DNA match?
[33:35]
Susan Hendricks
Yes, and I always go back, I know to Delphi because I know so much about that case. But there was some DNA of unknown people on the girl's clothes. Meaning if you're around anyone, it could show. As you said, it was a party house. It could have been someone in that home.
[33:53]
Nancy Grace
Wait a minute. Look at the grubhub truck. They're hugging people and talking to people. That's very, very easy to transfer DNA right there. So my point is, Howard Bloom said, why didn't they try to find out? They did try to find out, didn't they?
[34:12]
Susan Hendricks
And they settled. The defense is now trying to try it in the court of public opinion, and I will say online, the people who believe there was someone else there really believe it, and they're sticking with it no matter what the event.
[34:31]
Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
[34:36]
Unknown Interviewee
Tell me exactly what's going on.
[34:40]
Nancy Grace
One of our.
[34:41]
Unknown Interviewee
One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yikes. Hi, this is. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently. Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, but you gotta go check. One of our. One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house. Husb y. Hi, this is. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently. Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, we gotta go check, but we have to.
[35:51]
Nancy Grace
They were not passed out. They were all dead at the hands of Bryan Kohberger. And tonight, to further twist the families, he says he's innocent and he wants a trial. And you know what I say to that, Mrs. Gonsalves? Bring it on. I agree with him about one thing, Christy. Brian Kohberger says in his handwritten petition, justice was not served. True words were never spoken. Justice was not served because he needs the death penalty.
[36:30]
Susan Hendricks
Absolutely.
[36:31]
Nancy Grace
So he's right. There's one phrase in this whole petition that is accurate. Okay. With me. You know, Them? Well, they are the founders of Murder Has A Name. This is in their beautiful daughter Kelly Gonzalez's memory. In her honor, she was murdered by Brian Kohberger. And they are taking that pain and transforming it into something good. Raising money for DNA kits to be handled and processed to stop killers and get them off the street before more victims fall prey. Christy is with us. Steve Gonzalez is with us. Christy, when did you find out? Brian Coburger. That POS technical legal term says, I'm innocent. I was tricked. I love this part, Christy. That he was misled about life behind bars. Surprise, Jelly. What it's cracked up to be. Yeah, he figured that out, didn't he? When did you find out about this?
[37:42]
Christy Gonzalez
I found out pretty early on.
[37:44]
Unknown Interviewee
About.
[37:45]
Christy Gonzalez
About an hour before it started busting at the seams on the media. Steve had called me, and I was in the middle of a zoom meeting for Murder Has A Name. And I was like, steve's telling me, call me right away. Call me now. And I'm like, I gotta go. Like, he doesn't say that. And I called him and he told me, and I was like, you know, what is happening? So took us a minute to find out what exactly his allegations that he was having and the reasons for it. But when we heard, we were like, the judge asked you every single one of those questions, you know, so were you coerced? Were you promised anything? Were you on drugs? You know, and everything? And, I mean, it's a plea deal. I think it's pretty straightforward. I think the average IQ person can understand what a plea deal is. It's not something super complicated.
[38:42]
Nancy Grace
So, Nima Rahmani, is there any way this can happen? How dare he? After all he has put everybody through. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I don't like J. This wasn't what it's cracked up to be. I was lied to. I was mistreated. Every sentence starts with I. Is there a way to give him what he wants? Because I'd like to put it three inches right up his tailpipe.
[39:15]
Nima Rahmani
Listen, I would love a trial, too, just like everyone else. I think there's no world where he's actually innocent. He will be convicted. He will be sentenced to death. But I don't think it's going to happen. Nancy, this is a final judgment. The law wants to keep these judgments final. We can't have every criminal defendant claim
[39:32]
Nancy Grace
when both parties don't want it to be final. Both parties? I just gave you a U.S. supreme Court that can Undo a guilty plea. All this business about a plea is unappealable. That's crap. That's not true. I can't believe they even said that to start with. Do they not have a law book?
[39:57]
Nima Rahmani
Well, listen, there has to be a constitutional violation. So if the parties agree that there's a constitutional violation, of course. But they can't just enter into a stipulation. It's not like just putting a piece of evidence in or saying, hey, we want to do over. There has to be a legal basis to unwind this. Absent a constitutional violation, we're not going to be able to get there. It's not enough for the prosecution, the defense, to say, you know what? We've changed our mind. We want to do over. This was a bad deal. Because the millions of people thinking the
[40:27]
Nancy Grace
best bet is ineffective. Ineffective assistance counsel. Because actual innocence is not going to work. Not knowing and voluntary, that's not going to work. We're down prosecutorial misconduct. That didn't happen. So all we're left with is ineffective.
[40:46]
Nima Rahmani
That's all we're left with. So unless antenna.
[40:50]
Nancy Grace
He's crazy like a fox, because that's what he's claiming in this petition, that his lawyers did not give him the whole truth, that they withheld exculpatory evidence from him to get him to plead guilty. He's saying it was all a fabrication. Is that what he's saying? Nate Eaton is all a big fabrication? It was a lie.
[41:11]
Nate Eaton
That's what he's saying. Nancy, one interesting thing is the Attorney General for the state of Idaho came out and said, my office stands ready to do whatever is necessary to ensure justice is fully carried out. He didn't say there's no chance that this will advance that. If the judge denies it, it sounds like the Attorney General is ready and willing to help. So let's say a prosecutor from the Attorney General's office steps in and says, okay, we'll prosecute the case from the state level. And then Co Burger, who's going to represent him if this proceeds? Is he going to represent himself or he's writing his own legal briefs?
[41:46]
Nancy Grace
Will he be a. There are plenty of lawyers that would do it just for the pr. You know, I appreciate what the state AG said, Labrador. But where the hey was the AG when this plea was going down? Okay. When everybody across the country was screaming, including the Gonzalez family, where were they then? You know what? If they're going to come late to the party, great. Come on. But that's. But another thing this does is it Opens up a possibility the first feds might step in. Cuz that plea is undone.
[42:16]
Christy Gonzalez
So I'm going through some of Kaylee's things and
[42:21]
Nancy Grace
I just came across the
[42:24]
Christy Gonzalez
sweatshirt that she was wearing that night.
[42:32]
Nancy Grace
And in the pocket is her grub truck number 78 ticket. I've been looking for it. It's the first thing that I really found that I've been looking for.
[42:59]
Christy Gonzalez
It was in the top of a box and
[43:03]
Nancy Grace
when I looked in the pocket and I found that ticket, I was just. Takes you back to those hours.
[43:11]
Christy Gonzalez
Those hours right before they had no
[43:13]
Nancy Grace
idea what was going to happen to them. Terrible. That's Christy from the Gonzalez family.
[43:25]
Dylan Mortensen
Facebook.
[43:25]
Nancy Grace
Joe Scott, what are we going to do, man?
[43:29]
Joe Scott Morgan
God bless y'.
[43:30]
Dylan Mortensen
All.
[43:32]
Joe Scott Morgan
I can't even plumb the depths of this. Getting back to the, to the evidence at hand. I gotta tell you something. And going back to what Steve and Christie had said earlier and let the hide come with the hairs. What I say if he wants a fight, bring it on. Because going back to what that clip that you showed of our friends David and Kristen at othram. I felt all along there was going to be a, just a plethora of DNA evidence. And here's why. I'm going to throw a number out to you that we don't use this number a lot when we're talking about these four precious lives. Okay. We talk about the individual injuries, you know, per person. But Nancy, I want to give you this number. 150. 150 injuries we're talking about in total. Now that's kind of an approximation because the violence involved in this case you have what were referred to, or what I would refer to as communicating injuries. So you have such a concentration of injuries that you'll get this kind of cross pattern where you can't delineate it. And of course, you know, this, this certainly happened with Kaylee. There's just certain things that you can't interpret specifically because of the level of violence. But 150. Nancy, just let that sink in. How are you going to engage in this kind of violence and not have transfer of DNA and you taking on DNA from an individual, I can only imagine where else they're sourcing this from. Points of contact. We go back and you know, my, my old adage is always the car contact leaves a trace. And that principle holds true here. It's, it's solid as the day is long. And so when you think about the violence that was exacted here. Yeah, I, I think that there's that there is a solid underpinning of evidence here. And again, if he, you know, if he feels froggy, let's jump, baby. Let's roll. Because I want to see this evidence. And going back from a prosecutorial standpoint, I want to see somebody that's actually got the guts to go forward, stand up and accuse him and direct him to offer up an explanation for what happened. Of course, we didn't see that because there was no damn allocution. That was not required of him. He gets to live on easy street now, doesn't he?
[46:06]
Nancy Grace
Final word, Christy and Steve.
[46:09]
Christy Gonzalez
It's completely out of our hands, and all we could do is show up, and we will continue to do that.
[46:16]
Steve Gonzalez
Yeah. I hope his day of manipulating all these court processes come to an end. We were unsealing things. Things were slowly coming out. I hope that doesn't come to an end. We all deserve the truth. And when you have a prisoner who sits there and is able to manipulate things and they start rewarding him by not unsealing, then, you know, they're making. They're making a standard for others to follow. So let's hope.
[46:39]
Christy Gonzalez
And I do want to say that I'm sorry to the state of Idaho, to the community that, you know, as taxpayers, that this is $8 million. This has been so expensive and just continues to run. And I see a lot of people say, you know what? We don't want to, you know, end it because of the cost. I understand that. But on the other hand, you know, this is our child, and if it was your child, you know, you might feel a little differently. But we do understand that we, you know, we don't want to dismiss that. But how much is your child worth?
[47:13]
Steve Gonzalez
Yep.
[47:13]
Christy Gonzalez
You know, there's. There's no dollar amount that you can
[47:15]
Nancy Grace
put on that everyone whines about our tax dollars being misspent. Finally, our tax dollars would be spent for a good cause. Nothing to complain about there. We wait as justice unfolds, God willing. Finally, in this case, we remember an American hero, Sergeant Edmund Murray, N.Y.P.D. passed away in the line of duty, leaving behind parents Maureen and Bartholomew. American hero, Sergeant Edmund Murray. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.

Summary8 min read

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: BRYAN KOHBERGER VICTIM TERROR: SPOTS MAN IN TREES STARING BEFORE SLAUGHTERS
Date: July 31, 2026

Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace and her panel of experts, family members, and investigators explore chilling new revelations and legal maneuvers in the Bryan Kohberger “Idaho Four” murder case. With a focus on newly uncovered evidence, survivor testimony, Kohberger’s legal fight for a new trial, and theories of whether he acted alone, the conversation is intense, emotional, and deeply investigative, providing both legal insight and personal stories from those closest to the case.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stalking Allegations & Pre-Murder Events

Surveillance Before the Killings
- Dave Mack references a new documentary revealing that victim Kaylee Goncalves reported feeling unnerved days before the murders after spotting a man lurking in the treeline while walking her dog, Murphy.
- [02:13]: "Kaylee Goncalves got really weirded out... she saw a man in the tree line staring at her... she shared this with Bethany Funk." — Dave Mack
Murphy the Dog’s Behavior
- Strange behavior by the victims’ dog in the days leading up to the murders points to possible stalking. Murphy was reportedly agitated and often ran off.
- Sydney: "This dog, they described for weeks was on edge before the murders, was constantly going off into the woods and wouldn't come back... does the same thing this night." [25:00]

Survivor Testimony

Dylan Mortensen’s Frightening Experience
- Dylan describes hearing chaos in the house, including unsettling sounds and a strange man’s voice:
  
  “I just remember hearing this guy's voice... saying, 'you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you.' But it wasn't in like a nice way. It was like a weird tone.” — Dylan Mortensen [19:04]
- The confusion over which victim ran where, amid the chaos, is dissected:
  - Sydney explains the house’s layout and how memories from the night may not match the facts, “So the only thing that makes sense for somebody to have ran down those stairs is Zanna. Not Kaylee, not Maddie.” [23:27]
911 Call Recap
- The initial call to emergency services reveals a confused, horrific scene, with someone reporting a roommate as "passed out" and a reference to an unknown man seen in the house.
  
  "They were not passed out. They were all dead at the hands of Bryan Kohberger." — Nancy Grace [35:50]

Legal Developments: Kohberger’s Push for a New Trial

Motion for a New Trial
- Nate Eaton outlines Kohberger’s legal effort to withdraw his plea, arguing ineffective counsel and surprises about prison conditions.
  
  “He is claiming that they've been ineffective counsel, and he needs new attorneys... The judge will ultimately decide.” — Nate Eaton [03:45]
- The timeline could be lengthy, and families may face years more legal wrangling:
  
  "If you do have the trial... the prosecution and the defense... bring it all out... it might continue for another five, ten years." — Nate Eaton [09:07]
Idaho’s Highest-Profile Prisoner
- Kohberger’s current conditions: total isolation, minimal contact, and heavy security:
  
  “He's probably in there by himself 23 hours a day. He probably gets out one hour a day, maybe 30 minutes to go out to the rec yard... not having much social interaction.” — Nate Eaton [06:46]
Expert Opinions on Legal Maneuvering
- Nima Rahmani doubts Kohberger will succeed with his legal arguments unless there's proof of a constitutional violation, not just buyer's remorse.
  
  "There has to be a legal basis to unwind this. Absent a constitutional violation, we're not going to be able to get there." — Nima Rahmani [39:57]
- Ineffective assistance of counsel seems to be Kohberger’s legal strategy.
  
  "That's all we're left with... that's what he's claiming... his lawyers did not give him the whole truth, that they withheld exculpatory evidence to get him to plead guilty." — Nancy Grace [40:49]

Theories About an Accomplice

Single vs. Multiple Perpetrators
- Howard Bloom, author of a definitive Idaho murders book, raises questions about the physical feasibility of one person committing the murders, citing the number of stab wounds and possible use of multiple weapons and movement/staging of bodies.
  
  "This wasn't just a stabbing. This was a massacre. The four students were stabbed over 150 times in totality... both the prosecution and defense have said that there's a possibility that another weapon was used..." — Howard Bloom [25:53]
- Nancy Grace and several experts push back, listing cases where a single assailant committed multiple stab wounds.
  
  "You don't see those muscles on his... So you're telling me you're basing your theory on the fact that he's too skinny and scrawny to raise his arm 150 times? I mean, women do that." — Nancy Grace [27:02]
- Joe Scott Morgan, forensic expert, sides with the single assailant theory, pointing to transfer DNA and the forensic evidence’s strength.
  
  "When you think about the violence that was exacted here... there's a solid underpinning of evidence here." — Joe Scott Morgan [43:32]
- The debate lingers but is tied back to the evidence and forensic limitations.

Forensic Evidence and DNA

Strength of the Physical Case
- Joe Scott Morgan discusses the DNA evidence ("plethora of DNA evidence") recovered, its exponential power, and how it supports the prosecution.
  
  "There is far more DNA and biological evidence that has been recovered... when you get results from that, those numbers suddenly become exponential.” [11:48]
- The significance of touch DNA and party house context:
  
  "Look at the grubhub truck. They're hugging people and talking to people. That's very, very easy to transfer DNA, right?” — Nancy Grace [33:52]
- Defense criticism is raised on why all DNA (such as from a found glove) wasn't tested, but panelists counter with practical and evidentiary reasons.

Psychological Profile of Kohberger

Expert Analysis of Kohberger's Behavior
- Dr. Bethany Marshall analyzes Kohberger as obsessive, sociopathic, possibly a "budding serial killer," and speculates that prolonging the legal process feeds his need for control, attention, and the chance to relive the crime.
  
  "He may be living in his own delusional castle, where he believes he has come up with a very reasonable defense. And he’s grandiose, he’s better than the attorneys, and he's going to handle the defense himself." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [14:58]
- The courtroom as a new arena for narcissistic assertion and perhaps sexual sadism.
  
  "Going to court might be another way to collect material, to see women sitting in the court, to see people crying, which should feed into sexual sadism." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [16:20]

Family Impact & Ongoing Advocacy

Goncalves Family Speaks
- Christy and Steve Goncalves discuss the cost—financially and emotionally—of the ongoing process and their continued advocacy for DNA testing to solve other crimes.
  
  "We're not just going to sit back and just wait for stuff to happen. We're going to make things happen." — Steve Gonzalez [01:45]
- The search for closure and transparency:
  
  "We were unsealing things. Things were slowly coming out. I hope that doesn’t come to an end. We all deserve the truth." — Steve Gonzalez [46:15]
- The frustration with the financial cost versus the value of justice:
  
  "I do want to say that I'm sorry to the state of Idaho, to the community... but on the other hand, you know, this is our child, and if it was your child, you might feel a little differently." — Christy Gonzalez [46:38]
- Nancy Grace's take:
  
  "Finally, our tax dollars would be spent for a good cause. Nothing to complain about there. We wait as justice unfolds, God willing." — Nancy Grace [47:15]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“She saw a man in the tree line staring at her… it bothered Kaylee enough that she did report it before the murders to her roommate.” — Dave Mack [02:13]
"He is probably in there by himself 23 hours a day... I would imagine he's in isolation. He is not out mingling with the other people in prison." — Nate Eaton [06:46]
"One of the things we know about serial killers is that they... want to relive the crime. They collect fetishes... going to court would be yet another opportunity to relive the crime." — Dr. Bethany Marshall [14:58–16:28]
“You're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. But it wasn't... like a nice way. It was like a weird tone.” — Dylan Mortensen [19:04]
“We're not just going to sit back and just wait for stuff to happen. We're going to make things happen.” — Steve Gonzalez [01:45]
"That's all we're left with [for an appeal]: ineffective assistance of counsel.” — Nancy Grace [40:46]
“If he feels froggy, let's jump, baby. Let's roll. Because I want to see this evidence.” — Joe Scott Morgan [43:32]
“How much is your child worth? There's no dollar amount.” — Christy Gonzalez [47:13]

Important Timestamps

[02:13] — New documentary reveals pre-murder stalking
[03:45] — Kohberger's motion for a new trial explained
[06:46] — Kohberger’s prison conditions and psychological pressure
[11:48] — Forensic perspective on DNA evidence
[14:58] — Dr. Bethany Marshall psychoanalyzes Kohberger
[19:04] — Dylan Mortensen recounts harrowing night
[23:27] — House layout and reconstruction of events
[25:53] — Howard Bloom presents theory of an accomplice
[33:52] — Evidence transfer and DNA analysis counterpoints
[35:50] — 911 call reveals chaos and misunderstanding
[39:57] — Legal options for appealing the case
[46:38] — Families on cost, grief, and justice
[47:15] — Nancy’s closing words on justice and the case’s meaning

Episode Tone & Conclusions

The tone is intense, urgent, at times confrontational, deeply empathetic toward the victims’ families, and unflinching in the pursuit of truth and justice. Nancy Grace’s signature directness keeps the panel focused and the pressure high. The expert panel, family members, and legal analysts bring a mix of legal acumen, forensic expertise, and heartbroken determination, clearly conveying the lasting harm, ongoing search for accountability, and the hope that renewed legal proceedings, though painful, will spur much-needed answers.

Summary prepared by: Podcast Summarizer
For: Listeners seeking an in-depth but clear and engaging overview without the need to wade through hours of content.

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Transcript119 lines

[00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I heart podcast.
[00:03]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
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[00:50]
Nancy Grace
crime stories with Nancy Grace. One thing we have to address in this theory that Bryan Kohberger did not act alone, I don't buy it. Nothing has convinced me otherwise yet. But believe me, if there is another assailant, I want them behind bars. Now I'm hearing Brian Kohberger can sue.
[01:17]
Dylan Mortensen
Sue who?
[01:18]
Nancy Grace
Look at the grubhub truck. They're hugging people and talking to people. That's very, very easy to transfer DNA, right? Brian Kohberger's casual conversation with a clerk, a conversation about the murders he just committed.
[01:39]
Christy Gonzalez
Crimes are getting harder and harder to commit because people are getting really, really good at solving things.
[01:46]
Steve Gonzalez
And we're going to go help other families solve their cases. We'll close those gaps between funding and a lab that's sitting there waiting for funding. We're not just going to sit back and just wait for stuff to happen. We're going to make things happen.
[02:07]
Nancy Grace
Joining us tonight, crime stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, what's the latest?
[02:13]
Dave Mack
Nancy, this is shocking information coming out of the documentary the Idaho College Nightmare. It's on Netflix right now, directed by Sky Borgman. And there's an interview with surviving roommate Bethany Funk. She's the woman who came eye to eye with the bushy haired stranger who is fleeing the scene of the massacre at 4:20 in the morning. Okay. Bethany Funk tells police that Kaylee Gonzalez got really weirded out when she took her dog Murphy out to do his business in the days prior to the murders. She tells Bethany Funk that while she's out there with Murphy alone, she saw a man in in the tree line staring at her. Now it's different. You know, you live in a neighborhood for a period of time, Nancy. You go outside, you see a neighbor or whatever, you wave at him, right? Hey, how you doing? That didn't happen. This encounter with this person, this man she described staring at her happened in such a way that is so unnerved Kaylee Gonzalez that she shared this with Bethany Funk. Now, at this point in time, the documentary presents this as it bothered Kaylee enough that she did report it before the murders to her roommate. And now the possibility that she is being stalked or watched comes to the forefront. Who was the target of the attack by Bryan Coburger? Was it Kaylee Gonzalez? Was Brian Coburger the bushy haired man, staring at her while she walked her dog?
[03:40]
Nancy Grace
Nate Eaton, News Director, East Idaho News. Nate, what happens now?
[03:46]
Nate Eaton
Well, Nancy, Bryan Kohberger, of course we know, filed his motion for a new trial saying that he is innocent, that he didn't obtain justice, that he was basically fooled into pleading guilty a year ago. The judge in the case has received the motion and has just recently, this week ruled that Bryan Kohberger will now get a new attorney to, to assist him with the proceedings moving forward. So what will likely happen is a hearing will be scheduled. Coburger will appear there with likely the counsel he's had. He's claiming that they've been ineffective, that they've been ineffective counsel, and he needs new attorneys. If they agree to that and decide not to fight it, which I don't know why they would fight it, they could say, you're right, we're going to let him go on his way. A new attorney comes on the case, then it becomes a matter of whether he has actual legal standing to carry this forward. And that's when Judge Steven Hipler will have to decide. Okay, yeah, maybe he proves a point here, here or here or not. He'll go through the plea agreement that was entered. He'll go through the things that Bryan Coburger signed. I know we've talked about it here on your program, Nancy. The plea agreement he signed a year ago, he verbally agreed to it. The judge was very specific in asking him, do you understand this? Are you accepting responsibility? You know, he very much laid out point by point by point and then the judge will ultimately decide, okay, yes, there's enough to move it forward or no, I imagine Bryan Kohberger will appeal this. I imagine this will go all the way to the Supreme Court and then they will decide. And then once it's there, once the Supreme Court has decided, nope, it's not gonna go any further. He's, he's stuck. I mean, he can't do anything further unless significant new evidence comes out down the line. If the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeals or the local Judge decides, okay, he's got a point here. Then it's a whole new game. Then we prepare for trial. Nancy, I have been to the prison where Bryan Kohberger is staying. There's a couple of different prisons. He's in the maximum security institution. Then there's the general population, you could call it institution. I've been through there. That is a normal, quote, unquote, normal prison where the inmates have jobs, they make licenses, there's a wood shop where they can actually go in and build things and they can put in a wood floor. I mean, these are the average sort of inmates that don't cause any problems. And within that prison, there's different levels. There's minor security, medium and maximum. Brian Kohberger is in a completely different facility down the road. This is maximum security. Because he is so high profile, he is likely. They haven't released much about him because everybody wants to know, but we assume he's in isolation. He is not out mingling with the other people in prison. He's not out working. We don't assume, because these are some of the issues that he brought up in his filing, that prison wasn't like what he was told it would be like. So if he was told, oh, it's going to be like this, you're making license plates, you're in the workshop, you're making wooden things, you're going to school, getting an education, maybe that's what he thought it would be. But this is the highest profile criminal in Idaho, in the nation, one of the highest. They're not gonna let him out because you would imagine that other inmates in this maximum security institute are gonna have something to say to him or perhaps something to do to him. So early on, when he was first booked, that leaked prison security footage showed him in a cell, walking around, pacing. He had his cot, his bed, he has a toilet, he's got a sink. He's able to order items from the commissary, which could be anything from soda to candy to crackers, whatever, a TV. But I would imagine he's in there by himself 23 hours a day. He probably gets out one hour a day, maybe 30 minutes to go out to the rec yard, which would be maybe a 12 by 12, 15 by 15 concrete walled area with a fence on the roof. And you get to walk around. There might be a ball out there. There might be a pole with a volleyball that you can hit around. I mean, very, very simple type of things. Many would argue he shouldn't even get that. So there's that facility. Now, if he were on death row, which, if this goes to trial and if he's convicted and if he gets the death penalty, there's a separate area, once the governor signs the order for to put someone to death, that the inmates then go into a separate building. So for now, he's in the maximum security prison, not having much social interaction. He complained earlier that he wasn't getting the food he wanted, that people were taunting him through the vents. They were able to yell things and say things to him. And I would imagine anytime he might have to walk through the area where other inmates see him, I would not doubt for one second if they have words to say to him. You know, the Netflix special has a lot of people talking about the Idaho four, the four victims who tragically lost their lives in this. I think that the timing. They released this Netflix show basically a year after the plea agreement. I think there was some purposeful timing in that Bryan Kohberger also had a limited of time to file his motion for post conviction relief. And so he had to get that in. So the timing just happened to be there together. I will say that there are a lot of people here in Idaho who I've spoken with who just want him to go away. They're done. They're done with him. They realize that the families have a say and obviously that is important. Some of the families don't want this to proceed. They want him to go away. Other people, though, that I speak with say, okay, yeah, if he wants a trial, sure, let's have the trial. What evidence does he have? What more is there out there that we don't know about? I mean, in one aspect, if you do have the trial, at least at that point, the prosecution and the defense, whatever evidence they might have, they bring it all out. It's all there in one, six week, two month, three month trial, it all comes out so that it's not every four weeks. New evidence, new phone calls, new recordings, whatever it is like how it's been the past year. I mean, this might continue for another five, ten years. Either way, if we get a trial, they're gonna. If he gets new attorneys, the attorneys are gonna have to go through all of the discovery. The state will have to prepare a case. There wouldn't. And if it's a death penalty, there wouldn't be a trial at least for another year or two. So you've got all those years. The victims have to go through this all again. If there's not a trial, there will still be people out There saying that there needs to be. So it's kind of an interesting spot. It's just very sad about how this affects the true victims, the families of these poor students, and also, you know, the taxpayers. $8 million plus is what has been spent on this case so far. Far more than that, I imagine, and it'll continue to be spent. So for now, we wait and see, Nancy, when the next hearing will be and what will happen if Kohberger will show up and actually speak. Read his brief, he might have more to say. If he kind of takes upon the approach of, I'm gonna represent myself, which would be interesting to see, or. Or if he's more quiet, like how he has been at previous hearings, and he lets his attorneys, whether they're no longer his attorneys speak or the new attorneys, we'll see. And then Judge Hipler will likely lay out a timeline, and he could issue a written order after the fact saying denied, or he could decide to advance it further up and call for more hearings.
[11:26]
Nancy Grace
Joining us now, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit play podcast, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes of all sorts under his belt. Okay, Joe Scott, what do you make of that?
[11:48]
Joe Scott Morgan
Nancy, I got to tell you, I'm. I'm not necessarily shocked by this news. I kind of felt like that it was going to be coming down the pike. I think that. I don't know if it necessarily took us all by surprise. However, I didn't necessarily expect it to happen this soon. And so I'm wondering exactly what kind of advice is being whispered in his ear right now? Or is it just him thinking about it as he's sitting around trying to understand what his next moves are in a place that he does not want to be? So I don't. I don't know if this is just a waste of time at this point in time. I can tell you this, though, based upon just statements made by the Middlemans. We've heard a lot about DNA that was found on the knife sheath. Right. How many times have we heard that The Middlemans indicate that there is far more DNA and biological evidence that has been recovered. So, yeah, I mean, he's sitting there cooling his heels at this point in time, but you talk about a tough hill to climb, because we're not just talking about just maybe a single point on that. That snap on that knife. Now. They're alluding to the fact that there are many More other samples from the scene. And you know, they're not just going to say this just to be saying something. What they're implying is that these items have been tied back back to him, however many there are. And the thing about DNA is that when you get results from that, those numbers suddenly become exponential. And that in and of itself is a problem for him because that makes it tougher and tougher to defeat.
[13:44]
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[14:29]
Nancy Grace
crime stories with Nancy Grace. Doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Hulu, on Peacock, on Netflix. Brand new hit podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her at Dr.bethanymarshall.com, okay, hit it Bethany. Thoughts?
[14:58]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Well, first of all, Kohberger is obsessive. We know that from his history, from his actions. You know, he kept a lot of contact information on his phone of other women. We know he probably stalked the Moscow four. We know also that he surveilled the house. I mean, he's meticulous. He used gloves. He tried to get rid of the garbage from his home. So everything is thought out. Think about a perpetrator who actually goes to a criminal justice program as a precursor for committing a crime. Somebody who actually sends out a survey asking how did you feel during the commission of the crime. This is somebody who lives in their head. So we what does that tell me about why he may have withdrawn the plea deal? It tells me that this gives him another opportunity to obsess, to perseverate, to tell his story. Also, he's been thinking a lot. Now that he's in solitary confinement, he only bathes twice a day. When he goes out, it's in a cage. He has access to the law library. That's a lot of time to think. So this would be not only consistent, consistent with his baseline personality, but it's also consistent with the profile of somebody who's sociopathic. I've never met him or examined him, but sociopaths tend to convince themselves of their own reality. Whatever they think is true becomes true. So he might, you know, be telling himself, I didn't really do that, or I wasn't served up. Justice in court. And, you know, now is going to be my day in court. And the third factor, you know, we have this saying that, you know, psychotics build castles. We have the saying neurotics build castles in the sky. Psychotics live in them. He may be living in his own delusional castle, where he believes he has come up with a very reasonable defense. And he's grandiose, he's better than the attorneys, and he's going to handle the defense himself. I find it fascinating that Kohberger has withdrawn the plea for two reasons. I believe he was a budding serial killer. And one of the things we know about serial killers is that they, and people who commit homicide and domestic homicide in general, especially if there's a sexually motivated aspect of the crime, they want to relive the crime. They collect fetishes. They, Scott Peterson drove to the bay. They surveil the area where they dumped the body. I mean, there's a lot of reliving. And going to court would be yet another opportunity to relive the crime. Now, remember, these crimes do tend to be sexually motivated. He can only sit in his solitary confinement and masturbate and live in his head, metaphorically, for so many hours a day. I mean, it's got to stop. In fact, one of the things I see with sex addicts in my practice, especially if there's an aggressive component, if they watch bdsm porn or sadism towards victims, is they. They like to prolong ejaculation as long as possible. In other words, to live in a state of arousal. And there's only so much material in your own head, you know, if you're living in solitary confinement. So going to court might be another way to collect material, you know, to see women sitting in the court, to see people crying, which should be feed into sexual sadism, to go over the details of the crime. So he might be, you know, tired of his own fantasy world and needing to enter another.
[18:48]
Investigator or Interviewer
Ran downstairs.
[18:49]
Dylan Mortensen
Yes, I could hear. You can hear everything. And I told her to run downstairs really fast. And then I heard Murphy barking a lot.
[18:59]
Unknown Interviewee
Okay.
[19:00]
Dylan Mortensen
And then I heard her going to the bath. I think it was the bathroom. And I remember her sobbing. And I just remember hearing this guy's voice and I didn't recognize, saying, you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. But it wasn't like. I don't know how to explain it. Like, it wasn't in, like a nice way. It was like a weird way. Like a weird tone.
[19:16]
Investigator or Interviewer
You're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you. Yeah. And you didn't hear anything from Kaylee anymore?
[19:23]
Dylan Mortensen
Oh, dead. I didn't hear anything. And then me and Maddie pick out
[19:28]
Investigator or Interviewer
Murphy, and then Murphy's the dog. Yeah.
[19:31]
Dylan Mortensen
And then I went inside to go to bed, and she was still coming out.
[19:37]
Nancy Grace
You see what's happening here? All the speculation about the dog. He had been there before, and he had befriended the dog. He knew Murphy, and Murphy was part Murphy. The dog was part of the scenario that night.
[19:56]
Investigator or Interviewer
She's saying this morning on the floor, there's a guy, black mask, wasn't there. She didn't recognize him. She heard girls screaming upstairs. She got scared, locked herself in the room, and then the screaming all stopped. She's pretty sure that this masked person went out that back. And right now I'm getting all victim information. She knows where the two girls are up there. I haven't told her who's deceased, anybody that. They just have four people that are unaccounted for right now which.
[20:35]
Chris Madonna
Whose dog?
[20:36]
Investigator or Interviewer
Who owns a dog.
[20:38]
Nancy Grace
And again, as Sidney told us earlier, we find out the only one that knew what had really happened was Hunter Johnson, the kid that had his hands up over his head in anguish. Listen to Hunter Johnson.
[20:54]
Investigator or Interviewer
I forgot you're here, man. Do you still want to hang out here? Yeah, I don't know how much I'm allowed to disclose. Right now we're processing what's going on in the scene. As soon as we know for sure, we can tell you guys what's going on. We absolutely will. I know it sucks to be in the dark with this, but. Okay, and what's your. What's your relationship again?
[21:32]
Unknown Interviewee
Okay.
[21:36]
Investigator or Interviewer
Yeah, man. As soon as. As soon as I know we're able to fill you in on what's going on, we'll. There's a back entry. I was going to start taping it all off. Okay. I got in there. Here.
[21:56]
Nancy Grace
The officer trying to secure it, saying, I've got two. I got two right here. Talking about two dead bodies. I got two right here already. The house is clear. In other words, the suspect's not there. There's not a live suspect there. The house is clear to walk through. And they shut the dog, which is common because you don't know when the dog's gonna go crazy and start biting. You shut the dog in there. I'm curious where he shut the dog. But before I analyze that, I want you to hear more from the survivors. This is Dylan Mortensen. Listen.
[22:35]
Investigator or Interviewer
All right, what do you remember seeing what started?
[22:38]
Dylan Mortensen
I remember I was in my room and I was trying to go to bed. And I heard Kaylee, who ex girlfriend who has a dog in the.
[22:46]
Investigator or Interviewer
Real fast, which one is your room?
[22:48]
Dylan Mortensen
Kay?
[22:48]
Investigator or Interviewer
Which one is your room? What room are you in?
[22:51]
Howard Bloom
You.
[22:52]
Investigator or Interviewer
You were in that room.
[22:53]
Dylan Mortensen
My room. Not Xena's room. My room.
[22:56]
Investigator or Interviewer
And your room is. Is this one right here next to stairs.
[22:58]
Dylan Mortensen
That one. Second floor.
[23:03]
Investigator or Interviewer
Okay.
[23:05]
Dylan Mortensen
All I heard was. I heard go upstairs like, okay, I'm going to go to sleep now, cuz she's going upstairs.
[23:10]
Investigator or Interviewer
You heard who go upstairs?
[23:11]
Dylan Mortensen
Kaylee and the dog. Murphy.
[23:15]
Investigator or Interviewer
And upstairs to the very top.
[23:16]
Dylan Mortensen
Yeah, that's where her room is.
[23:18]
Nancy Grace
Sydney, what is probative about that body cam we just showed? What does this prove, Sydney?
[23:28]
Sydney
So first we have to get in our minds that the entire time Dylan insists Haley went upstairs, Kaylee screamed, Kaylee ran down the stairs. And the officer even points this out later. He. He says to another officer, she somehow knows. She was somehow able to discern this was Kaylee. But we don't think that's actually true. So we have to think about the layout of the house. So Kaylee and Maddie were asleep upstairs. Zanna's room was on the second floor where Dylan's room was. So the only thing that makes sense for somebody to have ran down those stairs is Zanna. Not Kaylee, not Maddie. So we have to get that in our heads as we're listening to Dylan's recollection of events. But it just proves to me that someone was there. These women are correct. Someone was in their house.
[24:25]
Nancy Grace
Sid, do you think at the time when we think Kelly was saying, hey, I'm going to go to bed, I'm going to go to sleep. Do you think he was already in the house? Because now I believe that he was already in there waiting for them to go to sleep. I don't think that they all went to their beds and then he snuck in.
[24:44]
Sydney
I agree with you. And we also learned later that Maddie was the last person to take Murphy out. So Maddie checks in with Dylan and Bethany one more time. Hey, I lost Murphy. I can't get him to come inside. Is he with either of y'?
[25:00]
Unknown Interviewee
All?
[25:00]
Sydney
She's looking for the dog. So again, this Dog, who they described for weeks was on edge before the murders, who was constantly going off into the woods and wouldn't come back when called. Just acting very, very oddly, does the same thing this night when they're taking him out for the last time. So I'm kind of feeling like someone was watching as they took the dog out for the very. And maybe snuck in just behind them as they brought the dog in.
[25:31]
Nancy Grace
Leading the throng illegal eagles that insist Kohberger did not act alone is renowned author Howard Bloom. He wrote the definitive book on the Idaho murders, When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho student murders. Howard, explain yourself.
[25:54]
Howard Bloom
Well, first, let me offer up a caveat to what you just said. I'm not saying he acted alone. I'm saying the theory deserves attention. And it deserves attention after all the documents we've seen in recent days, which include an analysis of what happened by the defense's own witness, Dr. Brent Turvey. He raises many of the questions that I came about independently. If you look at the devastation, this wasn't just a stabbing. This was a massacre. The four students were stabbed over 150 times in totality. I mean, try raising your hand 150 times. And this happens, the police say, within a 13 window.
[26:40]
Dylan Mortensen
Wait a minute.
[26:40]
Nancy Grace
Hold on, hold on, hold on. The photo. Brian Kohberger thinking he looks all buff, showing off all of his muscles. This guy worked out all the time and was constantly flexing himself. So you're telling me, oh, dear Lord in heaven. I asked for it, and boy, did
[26:59]
Howard Bloom
I get a skinny kid. But whatever.
[27:03]
Nancy Grace
So you don't see those muscles on his. He's got some guns going on right there. So you're telling me you're basing your theory on the fact that he's too skinny and scrawny to raise his arm 150 times? I mean, women do that.
[27:17]
Howard Bloom
I'm not saying that for an hour
[27:18]
Nancy Grace
all the time and two floors of
[27:21]
Howard Bloom
a house in the darkness. And also, both the prosecution and defense have said that there's a possibility that another weapon was used, that Kelly received wounds from another weapon, that there was. They also are both agree that there is a possibility that they were staging. That the victims were covered up with a comforter and they moved them around. That also that there was a cleanup afterwards. But the prosecution is not denying that that's a possibility, too. I think all these elements, as that are laid out by the defense statements raise questions that need to be looked at. I think we're seeing things when we look at the New evidence when released that really don't fit into the timeline.
[28:09]
Nancy Grace
I want to talk about not only the 150 stab wounds and Howard Bloom's assertion one person could not do that. I mean, wait, wait just a minute. Susan Hendricks, don't you recall the case of a female murdering a male with 100 plus stab wounds during some crazy sex play? Remember that?
[28:32]
Susan Hendricks
Oh, yes, yes, I believe it is possible here. And clearly we've seen it in other cases as well. And by the way, the two weapons, I think it was the back of the knife and the blade. I think that's what the prosecutor meant.
[28:45]
Nancy Grace
What do you mean with Kaylee?
[28:47]
Susan Hendricks
She had some injuries that may have been. She was injured by the back of the knife toward. In her facial area and her teeth.
[28:56]
Nancy Grace
That explains a lot. Okay. Dr. Kendall crowns hearing Susan Hendricks explanation. The back or the hilt of the knife being used, would that make a difference in your analysis at all?
[29:08]
Joe Scott Morgan
So the back of the hilt of the knife being used. To me, it could go along with the injuries you're seeing, the blunt force injuries. And also it could be the knife being driven in all the way to the hilt being a very deep stab wound, leaving injuries as well. So to me, it just all goes along with the fact that it's a single individual causing all these wounds. They just switch up what they're doing with their one weapon.
[29:34]
Nancy Grace
You know, I believe her name was Bryn Specher, Susan Hendricks, who was convicted of stabbing her boyfriend over 100 times. And then of course there's Jodi Arias who stabbed Travis Alexander 30 plus times and didn't have a problem with it at all. But for some reason, Howard Bloom, you seem to think that while these two women could perform, could murder with a knife stabbing over and over and over, you don't think Kohberger could do it.
[30:06]
Howard Bloom
The cases you're talking about involves just one victim here. We're talking about four different victims on two floors of the house in darkness. And we know that at least two of them fought back. And the prosecution itself has raised the possibility of a second weapon. All these pieces come together, I think, to raise the possibility that there might well have been another assailant. Added on to the motive, added on to Kohberger's statement. Was anyone else arrested? It raises a lot of doubts. And to use Dylan Mortensen as a witness. Well, her testimony has been very mercurial. It's changed throughout the many interviews she's given with the police. I mean, I feel for her. She's a victim in all this. But at the same time, she is not the most reliable witness.
[30:55]
Nancy Grace
Okay, straight back to you, Chris. Madonna, could you shed some light on the theory that there were two assailants now that you've heard where Bloom is coming from?
[31:04]
Chris Madonna
Sure. That's, you know, one of the questions that's not being asked is what's in Brian Kohberger system that evening? One of the last homicides I worked was a single individual that had slaughtered some folks. And the knife went on full auto. There were hundreds of stab wounds. And as the doc has said, and as Susan was reported, that that knife, that K bar knife, the back of the hilt of that knife I believe was utilized and the blood evidence shows it on Kaylee excessively as well as Zanna excessively. And that's probably the two weapon theory here. What we're not asking though is what was going on in Brian Kohberger's system. We know what the toxicology results are for the victims. They were incapacitated, they were sleeping. But Bryan Kohberger, in that eight hour time that was just brought up, came back to the scene to see his work that morning. You know, and if in fact this was a two perpetrator problem, whether not the sharpest tools in the shed because somebody came up with the idea of leaving the knife sheath there.
[32:24]
Nancy Grace
So not just one idiot, but two. Yeah, that's. That's kind of hard to take in. So, Howard Bloom, you also point out DNA on the stairwell and on a glove. I believe that Chris McDonough spotted the glove, as did I at the time, out in the parking lot. And I believe, Chris, you're the one that showed it to police. So I guess, Howard Bloom, you're using that as fodder for your two perp theory, the DNA?
[32:56]
Howard Bloom
No, I'm raising the question why wasn't that DNA analyzed? Why wasn't the prosecution going and the Idaho State Police going through the trouble, really just taking the time to put this through the DNA file and try to find out who it belonged to. It seems that when you don't want to know the answers to questions, they didn't ask them.
[33:20]
Nancy Grace
Susan Hendricks, isn't it true that the state tried to get a DNA match on that speck of DNA? And regarding the handrail, that could have been anybody. This was a party house that was in and out of the house. But didn't they try to get a DNA match?
[33:35]
Susan Hendricks
Yes, and I always go back, I know to Delphi because I know so much about that case. But there was some DNA of unknown people on the girl's clothes. Meaning if you're around anyone, it could show. As you said, it was a party house. It could have been someone in that home.
[33:53]
Nancy Grace
Wait a minute. Look at the grubhub truck. They're hugging people and talking to people. That's very, very easy to transfer DNA right there. So my point is, Howard Bloom said, why didn't they try to find out? They did try to find out, didn't they?
[34:12]
Susan Hendricks
And they settled. The defense is now trying to try it in the court of public opinion, and I will say online, the people who believe there was someone else there really believe it, and they're sticking with it no matter what the event.
[34:31]
Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
[34:36]
Unknown Interviewee
Tell me exactly what's going on.
[34:40]
Nancy Grace
One of our.
[34:41]
Unknown Interviewee
One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yikes. Hi, this is. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently. Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, but you gotta go check. One of our. One of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house. Husb y. Hi, this is. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened? Pretty much what is going on currently. Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4am Okay, I need to know what's going on right now. If someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, we gotta go check, but we have to.
[35:51]
Nancy Grace
They were not passed out. They were all dead at the hands of Bryan Kohberger. And tonight, to further twist the families, he says he's innocent and he wants a trial. And you know what I say to that, Mrs. Gonsalves? Bring it on. I agree with him about one thing, Christy. Brian Kohberger says in his handwritten petition, justice was not served. True words were never spoken. Justice was not served because he needs the death penalty.
[36:30]
Susan Hendricks
Absolutely.
[36:31]
Nancy Grace
So he's right. There's one phrase in this whole petition that is accurate. Okay. With me. You know, Them? Well, they are the founders of Murder Has A Name. This is in their beautiful daughter Kelly Gonzalez's memory. In her honor, she was murdered by Brian Kohberger. And they are taking that pain and transforming it into something good. Raising money for DNA kits to be handled and processed to stop killers and get them off the street before more victims fall prey. Christy is with us. Steve Gonzalez is with us. Christy, when did you find out? Brian Coburger. That POS technical legal term says, I'm innocent. I was tricked. I love this part, Christy. That he was misled about life behind bars. Surprise, Jelly. What it's cracked up to be. Yeah, he figured that out, didn't he? When did you find out about this?
[37:42]
Christy Gonzalez
I found out pretty early on.
[37:44]
Unknown Interviewee
About.
[37:45]
Christy Gonzalez
About an hour before it started busting at the seams on the media. Steve had called me, and I was in the middle of a zoom meeting for Murder Has A Name. And I was like, steve's telling me, call me right away. Call me now. And I'm like, I gotta go. Like, he doesn't say that. And I called him and he told me, and I was like, you know, what is happening? So took us a minute to find out what exactly his allegations that he was having and the reasons for it. But when we heard, we were like, the judge asked you every single one of those questions, you know, so were you coerced? Were you promised anything? Were you on drugs? You know, and everything? And, I mean, it's a plea deal. I think it's pretty straightforward. I think the average IQ person can understand what a plea deal is. It's not something super complicated.
[38:42]
Nancy Grace
So, Nima Rahmani, is there any way this can happen? How dare he? After all he has put everybody through. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I don't like J. This wasn't what it's cracked up to be. I was lied to. I was mistreated. Every sentence starts with I. Is there a way to give him what he wants? Because I'd like to put it three inches right up his tailpipe.
[39:15]
Nima Rahmani
Listen, I would love a trial, too, just like everyone else. I think there's no world where he's actually innocent. He will be convicted. He will be sentenced to death. But I don't think it's going to happen. Nancy, this is a final judgment. The law wants to keep these judgments final. We can't have every criminal defendant claim
[39:32]
Nancy Grace
when both parties don't want it to be final. Both parties? I just gave you a U.S. supreme Court that can Undo a guilty plea. All this business about a plea is unappealable. That's crap. That's not true. I can't believe they even said that to start with. Do they not have a law book?
[39:57]
Nima Rahmani
Well, listen, there has to be a constitutional violation. So if the parties agree that there's a constitutional violation, of course. But they can't just enter into a stipulation. It's not like just putting a piece of evidence in or saying, hey, we want to do over. There has to be a legal basis to unwind this. Absent a constitutional violation, we're not going to be able to get there. It's not enough for the prosecution, the defense, to say, you know what? We've changed our mind. We want to do over. This was a bad deal. Because the millions of people thinking the
[40:27]
Nancy Grace
best bet is ineffective. Ineffective assistance counsel. Because actual innocence is not going to work. Not knowing and voluntary, that's not going to work. We're down prosecutorial misconduct. That didn't happen. So all we're left with is ineffective.
[40:46]
Nima Rahmani
That's all we're left with. So unless antenna.
[40:50]
Nancy Grace
He's crazy like a fox, because that's what he's claiming in this petition, that his lawyers did not give him the whole truth, that they withheld exculpatory evidence from him to get him to plead guilty. He's saying it was all a fabrication. Is that what he's saying? Nate Eaton is all a big fabrication? It was a lie.
[41:11]
Nate Eaton
That's what he's saying. Nancy, one interesting thing is the Attorney General for the state of Idaho came out and said, my office stands ready to do whatever is necessary to ensure justice is fully carried out. He didn't say there's no chance that this will advance that. If the judge denies it, it sounds like the Attorney General is ready and willing to help. So let's say a prosecutor from the Attorney General's office steps in and says, okay, we'll prosecute the case from the state level. And then Co Burger, who's going to represent him if this proceeds? Is he going to represent himself or he's writing his own legal briefs?
[41:46]
Nancy Grace
Will he be a. There are plenty of lawyers that would do it just for the pr. You know, I appreciate what the state AG said, Labrador. But where the hey was the AG when this plea was going down? Okay. When everybody across the country was screaming, including the Gonzalez family, where were they then? You know what? If they're going to come late to the party, great. Come on. But that's. But another thing this does is it Opens up a possibility the first feds might step in. Cuz that plea is undone.
[42:16]
Christy Gonzalez
So I'm going through some of Kaylee's things and
[42:21]
Nancy Grace
I just came across the
[42:24]
Christy Gonzalez
sweatshirt that she was wearing that night.
[42:32]
Nancy Grace
And in the pocket is her grub truck number 78 ticket. I've been looking for it. It's the first thing that I really found that I've been looking for.
[42:59]
Christy Gonzalez
It was in the top of a box and
[43:03]
Nancy Grace
when I looked in the pocket and I found that ticket, I was just. Takes you back to those hours.
[43:11]
Christy Gonzalez
Those hours right before they had no
[43:13]
Nancy Grace
idea what was going to happen to them. Terrible. That's Christy from the Gonzalez family.
[43:25]
Dylan Mortensen
Facebook.
[43:25]
Nancy Grace
Joe Scott, what are we going to do, man?
[43:29]
Joe Scott Morgan
God bless y'.
[43:30]
Dylan Mortensen
All.
[43:32]
Joe Scott Morgan
I can't even plumb the depths of this. Getting back to the, to the evidence at hand. I gotta tell you something. And going back to what Steve and Christie had said earlier and let the hide come with the hairs. What I say if he wants a fight, bring it on. Because going back to what that clip that you showed of our friends David and Kristen at othram. I felt all along there was going to be a, just a plethora of DNA evidence. And here's why. I'm going to throw a number out to you that we don't use this number a lot when we're talking about these four precious lives. Okay. We talk about the individual injuries, you know, per person. But Nancy, I want to give you this number. 150. 150 injuries we're talking about in total. Now that's kind of an approximation because the violence involved in this case you have what were referred to, or what I would refer to as communicating injuries. So you have such a concentration of injuries that you'll get this kind of cross pattern where you can't delineate it. And of course, you know, this, this certainly happened with Kaylee. There's just certain things that you can't interpret specifically because of the level of violence. But 150. Nancy, just let that sink in. How are you going to engage in this kind of violence and not have transfer of DNA and you taking on DNA from an individual, I can only imagine where else they're sourcing this from. Points of contact. We go back and you know, my, my old adage is always the car contact leaves a trace. And that principle holds true here. It's, it's solid as the day is long. And so when you think about the violence that was exacted here. Yeah, I, I think that there's that there is a solid underpinning of evidence here. And again, if he, you know, if he feels froggy, let's jump, baby. Let's roll. Because I want to see this evidence. And going back from a prosecutorial standpoint, I want to see somebody that's actually got the guts to go forward, stand up and accuse him and direct him to offer up an explanation for what happened. Of course, we didn't see that because there was no damn allocution. That was not required of him. He gets to live on easy street now, doesn't he?
[46:06]
Nancy Grace
Final word, Christy and Steve.
[46:09]
Christy Gonzalez
It's completely out of our hands, and all we could do is show up, and we will continue to do that.
[46:16]
Steve Gonzalez
Yeah. I hope his day of manipulating all these court processes come to an end. We were unsealing things. Things were slowly coming out. I hope that doesn't come to an end. We all deserve the truth. And when you have a prisoner who sits there and is able to manipulate things and they start rewarding him by not unsealing, then, you know, they're making. They're making a standard for others to follow. So let's hope.
[46:39]
Christy Gonzalez
And I do want to say that I'm sorry to the state of Idaho, to the community that, you know, as taxpayers, that this is $8 million. This has been so expensive and just continues to run. And I see a lot of people say, you know what? We don't want to, you know, end it because of the cost. I understand that. But on the other hand, you know, this is our child, and if it was your child, you know, you might feel a little differently. But we do understand that we, you know, we don't want to dismiss that. But how much is your child worth?
[47:13]
Steve Gonzalez
Yep.
[47:13]
Christy Gonzalez
You know, there's. There's no dollar amount that you can
[47:15]
Nancy Grace
put on that everyone whines about our tax dollars being misspent. Finally, our tax dollars would be spent for a good cause. Nothing to complain about there. We wait as justice unfolds, God willing. Finally, in this case, we remember an American hero, Sergeant Edmund Murray, N.Y.P.D. passed away in the line of duty, leaving behind parents Maureen and Bartholomew. American hero, Sergeant Edmund Murray. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: BRYAN KOHBERGER VICTIM TERROR: SPOTS MAN IN TREES STARING BEFORE SLAUGHTERS Date: July 31, 2026

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stalking Allegations & Pre-Murder Events

Survivor Testimony

Legal Developments: Kohberger’s Push for a New Trial

Theories About an Accomplice

Forensic Evidence and DNA

Psychological Profile of Kohberger

Family Impact & Ongoing Advocacy

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Episode Tone & Conclusions

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: BRYAN KOHBERGER VICTIM TERROR: SPOTS MAN IN TREES STARING BEFORE SLAUGHTERS Date: July 31, 2026

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stalking Allegations & Pre-Murder Events

Survivor Testimony

Legal Developments: Kohberger’s Push for a New Trial

Theories About an Accomplice

Forensic Evidence and DNA

Psychological Profile of Kohberger

Family Impact & Ongoing Advocacy

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Episode Tone & Conclusions

Episode: BRYAN KOHBERGER VICTIM TERROR: SPOTS MAN IN TREES STARING BEFORE SLAUGHTERS
Date: July 31, 2026

Episode: BRYAN KOHBERGER VICTIM TERROR: SPOTS MAN IN TREES STARING BEFORE SLAUGHTERS
Date: July 31, 2026