BURN NOTICE: JURY HANGS IN DEADLY PACIFIC PALISADES FIRE, BODY COUNT 12

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Title: BURN NOTICE: JURY HANGS IN DEADLY PACIFIC PALISADES FIRE, BODY COUNT 12
Air Date: June 27, 2026

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Overview

This episode examines the deadlocked trial over the devastating Pacific Palisades wildfire, which claimed 12 lives and destroyed thousands of properties in Los Angeles. Host Nancy Grace and a panel of experts, including victims, investigators, legal analysts, and first responders, break down the evidence, the challenges of prosecuting arson, the human toll, and the mistrial that has left justice unresolved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pacific Palisades Fire: Scope and Human Impact

• The Fire's Devastation
  The fire, initially known as the Lachman Fire, started on New Year’s Eve, ultimately killing 12, destroying over 6,800 structures, and damaging over a thousand more.
  (05:41, U.S. Attorney):

  “As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned, victims perished in the smoke and flames. Homes… were turned to rubble and ash. The iconic Pacific coast highway along Malibu looked like a war zone.”

• Personal Stories of Survival
  Stephanie Lydecker, a survivor and mother, recounts the confusion, panic, and traumatic evacuation as her neighborhood was engulfed:

  “We were the lucky ones… The structure I was living in remained by the grace of God. So many people… have lived in their home for 45 plus years. This is it. They are wiped to the ground. There’s no real way to start over.” (06:46)

  Alexandra Pfeiffer, another resident who lost her home, shared:

  “By the evening, by 10 or 11 at night, every house [in my neighborhood] was gone.” (51:41)

Notable moment:

• Looting During Evacuations:
  Dr. Bethany Marshall highlights the disturbing reality of looters appearing before evacuations even finished:

  “She looks up and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses. She’s not even out of the house yet.” (11:08)

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2. The Defendant: Jonathan Renderknecht – Profile and Evidence

• Background
  Renderknecht, 29, grew up in France, lived and worked as an Uber driver in Pacific Palisades, later relocated to Florida. Investigators paint a picture of increasing agitation, isolation, and disturbing behavior leading up to the fire:

  “In the fall, Renderknecht feeds ChatGPT a detailed prompt blending imagery of a dystopian painting... Fire, fear, rich people and poor.” (14:13, Sidney Sumner)

• Digital Footprint & Mental State

  • Renderknecht created AI-generated dystopian fire imagery using ChatGPT.
  • He burned his Bible and described it as “liberating” to a family member. (14:46)
  • Repeatedly listened to a rap song “about burning things down,” days before the fire. (24:00)
  • Searched: “Is it my fault if I started a fire with a cigarette?” on ChatGPT. (45:53)

• Circumstantial Case
  The prosecution is largely reliant on circumstantial digital evidence, geolocation data, and behavioral patterns:

  “He filmed this fire, he chased the fire trucks, and he asked AI to be liable. That’s not remorse. That’s rehearsal.” (46:37, Moses Castillo, Investigator)

Notable Quotes:

• Flight Risk and Court Behavior:

  “He walked in, in a red jumpsuit. He was a little bit disheveled… sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at what the prosecutors were saying.” (28:45, Shannon Butler, Reporter)

• Relatives were so frightened, they moved out of the house:

  “His sister, her husband and children move out of their own home rather than live with him there out of fear.” (33:09, Nancy Grace)

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3. Legal Complexities: Proving Arson and Murder

• Challenges of Arson Cases

  “It’s very hard to determine first whether a case is arson because the evidence is all burned up. And then if it is arson, intentional, who did it?” (31:05, Nancy Grace)

  • Prosecution needs to prove the fire was intentional and malicious, not accidental.
  • Defense argues possible cigarette accident; prosecution stresses digital trail and intent.

• Circumstantial Evidence

  “It is the black and white letter of the law that circumstantial evidence is as powerful as direct evidence with the same probative weight.” (59:44)

• Deadlocked Jury & Mistrial
  The jury split 10-2 in favor of acquittal, leading to a mistrial:

  “The jury’s inability to reach a decision on any of the three charges led a federal judge to declare a mistrial… the prosecutor says the district attorney’s office fully intends to retry the case.” (59:58, Narrator)

Key Legal Insight:

• Sovereign Immunity and Civil Fallout
  The former LA Fire Chief Kristen Crowley is suing Mayor Karen Bass for defamation over public statements blaming her for the fire department’s response.

  “Sovereign immunity isn’t working in this case… because she was just running for office at the time she made those statements.” (21:21, Nancy Grace)

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4. Fire Science: Nature of the Blaze & Victims’ Suffering

• Rekindle/Holdover Fire Explained
  The fire reignited after a week, which defense argues complicates the chain of causation:

  “That fire started on January 1 and it smoldered underground for about a week until on January 7, heavy winds caused this underground fire to surface.” (48:24, U.S. Attorney)

  Firefighting experts explain “rekindling” is not uncommon but can make pinpointing arson harder.

• Medical Examiner’s Perspective on Victims’ Deaths

  “As you’re breathing in this smoke, you’re also breathing in carbon monoxide… You’re trying to get out, coughing, gagging, whatever, but you can’t get out.” (57:11, Dr. Kendall Crowns, Medical Examiner)

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5. Community Trauma & Long-Term Effects

• Displacement and Emotional Fallout
  Survivors, like Stephanie and Alexandra, describe ongoing trauma, homelessness, and the enduring scars on the community fabric.

  “You just put your animals in the car and drove away… everything perished except for our animals.” (54:56, Alexandra Pfeiffer)

• Rebuilding as an Uphill Battle
  Dr. Bethany Marshall:

  “It’s not just the destruction of each individual home. It’s the destruction of everything.” (11:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:01: Jury deadlocks; overview of the case.
• 06:46: Survivor Stephanie Lydecker describes on-the-ground evacuation chaos.
• 11:44: Looting in the midst of disaster; expert analysis.
• 13:18: Charges against Renderknecht announced by U.S. Attorney.
• 14:13: Sidney Sumner details defendant’s disturbing digital footprint.
• 23:11: Government’s theory: digital evidence, playlist, location data.
• 28:45: Suspect’s demeanor in court; family’s testimony about his mental state.
• 33:50: U.S. Attorney: Defendant’s actions around the scene.
• 45:18: Geolocation evidence placing suspect at the origin of the fire.
• 48:24: How the fire smoldered and reignited—unique fire science.
• 51:41: Survivor Alexandra Pfeiffer’s account of losing her home.
• 57:11: Dr. Kendall Crowns details the agony suffered by fire victims.
• 59:44: Legal significance of circumstantial evidence; jury split revealed.

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Memorable Quotes

• Nancy Grace (Host):
  “People lost their lives. Twelve people were killed in this fire, you know, and the devastation isn’t over yet.” (09:44)

• U.S. Attorney:
  “Destroying more than 6,800 structures, both homes and businesses, and damaging over a thousand more buildings.” (13:18)

• Stephanie Lydecker (Survivor):
  “To say it was an apocalypse, it’s an understatement. So my heart goes out to everyone who is still… picking up the pieces.” (06:46)

• Moses Castillo (Investigator):
  “No fireworks, no lightning, no power lines. Just one man, one lighter, and a trail of digital breadcrumbs. He filmed this fire, he chased the fire trucks, and he asked AI to be liable. That’s not remorse. That’s rehearsal.” (46:37)

• Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst):
  “He did rehearse. Like Moses said. I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is a compulsion… the only way to neutralize the feeling is to engage in the act. And in this case, it is pyromania.” (53:43)

• Shannon Butler (Reporter):
  “The brother-in-law and the sister were so afraid inside their home they wanted to get him out… In the meantime, they moved out of their own home and he was living in that house by himself…” (32:08)

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Conclusion

Nancy Grace and her expert panel explore every angle of the Palisades arson trial—from shattered lives and shaky evidence to courtroom drama and community fallout. The episode underscores the profound challenges of prosecuting arson, the weight of circumstantial evidence, and the staggering loss experienced by survivors. With the jury deadlocked and a mistrial declared, the quest for justice continues.

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Death, devastation.

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

I can't believe it. A jury deadlocks in the horrific fatal Palisades fire trial. I'm Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace]

This is Crime Stories.

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

I want to thank you for being with us. Quote, we have people on both sides that are dead set, unwavering and unwilling to change their opinion. That was the note from a jury read out loud in court by Judge Ann Hoang. What now a jury claims it, quote, can't decide on the case of a man accused of starting the deadly, deadly Palisades fire in LA. After two long days of deliberation, 29 year old Jonathan Renderknecht was charged with three federal counts. Now the jury, quote, can't decide. Well, these are the facts.

[Nancy Grace]

People said there's a fire in your area. And that's when I ran upstairs to see if I could see anything and saw flames everywhere and realized that we didn't really have a second longer.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

And this is the most devastating nightmare any of us have covered.

[Nancy Grace]

Nothing left and people dead. You start a fire and a death occurs. That's a felony. And I am not going to be happy until these, these perps are apprehended and charged to the max. Is that finally happening? Tonight, a bombshell in the Palisades fire case. I want you to hear the U.S. attorney.

[U.S. Attorney]

As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned, victims perished in the smoke and flames. Homes where cherished family memories and belongings were turned to rubble and ash. The iconic Pacific coast highway along Malibu looked like a war zone. Thousands of people were forced to evacuate, though homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt.

[Nancy Grace]

It's one thing to hear the U.S. attorney speaking about what happened. It's another thing entirely to hear from an actual victim. Straight out to Stephanie Lydecker. Stephanie, formerly of la. She is executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight, Founder CEO of KT Studios. Stephanie, with your background, this must have felt like a movie production, except it was real. And you have your son. You're a single mom. You've got a son. You have to save. What happens, Stephanie?

[Stephanie Lydecker]

You know, I was just working from home. I lived right off of Sunset at the time, and I started noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house. And that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And I was on a work zoom and I went outside and sure enough, you could see the blaze coming. And if anyone knows that area sort of by Temescal Canyon in Sunset, it is gridlock on a good day. So suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate and, you know, people were abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot, which I understood because it felt as though there was a chance we wouldn't get out. Yes. And my son, you know, thankfully, we're all good. He was evacuated from his school and we were the lucky ones. You know, the structure that I was living in remained by the grace of God. But I can promise you so many of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know, people who have lived in their home for 45 plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the ground. And there's no real way to start over. And to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So my heart goes out to everyone who is still sort of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces, because it really hasn't stopped stopped yet. You know, people are still living with those who they evacuated to. Can you imagine? So, yeah, hopefully there's some justice to be had.

[Nancy Grace]

Stephanie Lydecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning to back up bumper to bumper right outside your home. And that's odd in a residential area to suddenly see a parking lot out outside your front door completely, and then you look out and see flames. Where were the flames?

[Stephanie Lydecker]

I was slightly kind of really near ground zero. They were just up ahead on the top of the hill. I was fairly new to the area, too, so I was so ill prepared for this. I went out, saw the flames, and realized everybody who was backing up on my street was literally trying to evacuate there's only one way out. And remember, as people abandoned their cars, fire trucks can't get in, and then residents can't get out. So, you know, it took, you know, over six hours to get, you know, a mile and a half, because as the time progressed, it went from clear sky to smoke to straight fog. You know, your phone isn't working because you don't have satellite reception. You know, it's harrowing. Kids and pets and you just grabbed your phone and went out. In my case, I didn't assume I would be back in maybe 15 minutes and that this was just a little something. And, boy, was I wrong. The devastation is really unmatched. And listen, for firefighters and law enforcement and the people who really put their lives on the line to keep all of us safe. I'm so grateful.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Stephanie, you stated that your son, your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Yeah, see, that would throw me over the edge, not knowing. Did the twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I get to them? How can I get to them? That's one of my greatest fears, being separated from them in a time of emergency, and I can't get to them. What was going through your mind? As you can see the fire, and

[Stephanie Lydecker]

you don't have your son, and you can't really communicate. Right? So I'm so grateful that the middle school he was attending, they really went above and beyond and were able to evacuate the entire school to a further location. But again, you. You don't know where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And I will say this. You know, people say this. I can attest to it now. You know, that is all that mattered, was getting to him. Nothing else did. And I put my money where my mouth is on that one. You know, stuff is stuff, but safety. People lost their lives. Twelve people were killed in this fire, you know, and the devastation isn't over yet. So, yes, just getting to my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms around him, I felt in my heart we were divinely guided and continue to be so to some extent, you know, two

[Nancy Grace]

psychoanalysts joining us out of the California jurisdiction. Dr. Bethany Marshall, she's the author of Deal Breaker. She's currently on Peacock. And you can find [e-mail] who are these people? You hear? Alison is still trying to get everyone out of her house, trying to save them. There's six people that she's got to evacuate. Two children, two elderly parents, herself, her husband, all the pets, all of this, all of that. And she looks up and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses. She's not even out of the house yet. You know, Nancy, who are those people?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

And Nancy, this happened so quickly. It was like a giant was standing over the Pacific Palisades with a blowtorch. This was not a fire. This was the whole area being torched. And that these looters had the time to get there tells me that, you know, after every, like a riot, a demonstration, a fire, criminals move in very quickly afterwards. And I think it's a group of people who are actually wanting to loot and they're just waiting for the right opportunity. And Nancy, one more thing to place this into context. It wasn't just the Palisades. It was Altadenix. I have an office nearby and I have colleagues and friends who are sitting with their patients and they saw the fire coming over the hill. I have patients who want to move back home. They could rebuild the fires, the houses they've lost, but there's no infrastructure. There's no churches, there's no synagogues, no running water, no neighbors, no community. So it's not just the destruction of each individual home. It's the destruction of everything. And I have one patient who had a million dollar home. The insurance, the insurance company offered her $200,000 to rebuild the home and she can't do it with that.

[Nancy Grace]

In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about at least 12 people die and now who did it? Just, I hope you're sitting down. Listen.

[U.S. Attorney]

Today we are announcing the arrest of 29 year old Jonathan Rindernecht for igniting a fire that ultimately burned down the Palisades earlier this year, killing 12 people, destroying more than 6,800 structures, both homes and businesses, and damaging over a thousand more buildings.

[Nancy Grace]

Who is this guy and why?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Why?

[Nancy Grace]

Burn notice? How can we prove an arson? First, it's very difficult to do. You have to prove first of all that a crime occurred, that this was not some sort of an accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended. Who in the world would cause such an incident, claiming the lives of at least 12 and ruining literally thousands of acres, ripping people from their homes, and they can never go back. Who is this guy?

[Sidney Sumner]

Growing up in France, Renderknecht is now living in Pacific Palisades, working as an Uber driver. In the fall. RenderKnecht feeds ChatGPT a detailed prompt blending imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly. Fire, fear, rich people and the poor. A Month later, he tells a family member he burned his Bible and describes it to ChatGPT as liberating. As the year comes to an end, his Last passengers of 2024 described the 29 year old as agitated and angry.

[Nancy Grace]

I don't understand what I'm hearing. He tells a family member he burned his bible and he said it was liberating. And he is relentlessly searching ChatGPT. He blends an imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts. Fire, fear, rich people and poor. And the fire is looming down on all of them. That's his work. He created that. Sidney Sumner.

[Sidney Sumner (Investigator)]

That's absolutely correct. Investigators found that Render neck created a concerning chat GPT prompt. So he asked ChatGPT, this AI service, to create an image of a city essentially burning down. So it created 12 different shots and you see the fire tearing through this city and people running out of the city into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing.

[Nancy Grace]

It is disturbing and I would say probative that it proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of this jurisdiction, trial lawyer, attorney, trial consultant. Dina, if they want to make these charges stick, they're going to need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming down on all parts of some dystopian city. They're going to need more than that.

[Dina Dahl]

Absolutely. I mean, the fact that he wants this image and also the fact that he listened to a song, which I'm sure you'll talk about as well, you know, people's art aren't great. You know, motivation in court, you know, presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to. As you said, arson is going to be very difficult to prove. And this, you know, how somebody enjoys their music or what images they like to see, that's going to be hard to connect the dots to a jury.

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[Nancy Grace]

The pain, the suffering, the devastation caused

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

by the Palisades fire, Louisiana. Hollywood has never been the same. People dead, people's homes destroyed. In the midst of all of this, a jury deadlocks in the case of the Palisades fire. This as an ex fire chief is suing LA Mayor Karen Bass over the fire claims the former LA Fire Department Chief Kristen Crowley files a defamation case against the LA Mayor Karen Bass claiming the mayor falsely blamed her Crowley for the city's response, or lack thereof, in the Palisades fire and that it ruined her professional reputation. Now according to this lawsuit, Crowley claims Bass, the LA mayor made false statements while campaigning for re election, including claims Crowley was the one responsible for inoperable fire engines. Can you believe that? Fire engines that don't work and that she failed to properly deploy firefighters. Crowley claims those statements were made while Batts was a political candidate and are not protected by governmental immunity. What does that mean? Sovereign immunity? The king can do no wrong. If he don't like where the President or the Governor says you can't sue them, right? King can do no wrong. That's part of our common law brought over from Great Britain. That said the former LA Fire Chief Kristen Crowley says sovereign immunity isn't working in this case with Mayor Bass because she was just running for office at the time she made those statements that said back to the facts of that deadly fire. How can a jury deadlock?

[U.S. Attorney]

After dropping off a passenger in Pacific Palisades, Rindernek parked his car and tried and failed to contact a former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail, took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltop and listened to a rap song whose music video including objects being lit on fire. The defendant had listened to this song and watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading up to the Lachman fire. 12 minutes into the new year, environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started.

[Nancy Grace]

Isn't it true, Sidney Sumner, Crime Stories investigative reporter, that he listened to this song over and over and over and it's all about burning, burning things down?

[Sidney Sumner (Investigator)]

Yes. Render neck listened to this song repeatedly in the days leading up to the Lachman Fire.

[Nancy Grace]

A song that he was playing on loop. Let's listen to it. He played that over and over and over on loop. That from Osman. So the saint's gonna need more than what he was listening to in his earpod and they're gonna need more than some wacky dystopian painting. They're gonna need hard evidence to prov case guys. Joining me right now, Shannon Butler, investigative reporter, WFTV Channel 9 Florida. She just walked out of federal court a few hours ago where she observed the suspect at his first court appearance. Shannon Butler, what happened?

[Shannon Butler]

Hey Nancy. We just got out of this federal courthouse here in downtown Orlando. This was a detention hearing. And what the judge decided is that he is too much of a flight risk to be allowed bond. So he will remain behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred then back to LA. There is another hearing now on October 17th. Well they will present some more of that evidence, that preliminary hearing. But today the judge was concerned about his mental state and his living arrangements. He had been living in Florida for about the last five months, living with his sister and brother in law. But in the last month, 2911 calls were made from that home. The first call came about September 17, where the family members told them there was a disturbance inside the home where he threatened to burn their house down. Now just a week later, another 911 call from that home where his father said that he had a gun and was threatening to shoot his brother in law if his brother in law started to come towards him. And he needed to do that in self defense. So the family really painting a picture for us here of a declining mental state.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, Shannon Butler, don't move. Shannon Butler joining us, investigative Reporter, WFTV Channel 9 Florida. You said the judge stated the suspect is a flight risk. Which leads me to my first question. What's he doing in Florida? If he can make it all the way from California to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did he drive his Uber car there?

[Shannon Butler]

Well, he did drive his car from, from California to Florida. But the judge said he also has ties to France. It's where another brother and his father live. He lived there for some time. He even speaks French. They were concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made some comments that he may go try to live in Bali. So all of those things. Oh, another thing, Nancy, he told investigators that he could not find his passport. It was lost. That, of course, raising quite a concern for the judge when you don't know where your passport is. They said, well, what is lost could be found.

[Nancy Grace]

Shannon Butler joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon. He grew up in France. He lived there many, many years. Then he goes to Pacific Palisades. I don't know what occurred in between that. France and Pacific Palisades. Now he's in Melbourne, Florida, and he's been working as an Uber driver. As a matter of fact, according to the federal government, just before he started the fire, the pallet that turned into the Palisades fire, he had just dropped off his first Uber passenger of the year. He lives on chat GPT, which is going to be a treasure trove for prosecutors. But let me understand, he's not getting bond, is that right?

[Shannon Butler]

That is correct. He will remain here in Orlando until another hearing where he has for evidence here on October 17th. After that, it remains to be seen when he will then head back to California to face these charges. Remember, Nancy, these are just the beginning of what could be more and more charges right now facing a mandatory minimum of five years, up to 20 or so. But now they're looking at the possibility of 20 to the death penalty. Because remember, a dozen deaths there in California.

[Sidney Sumner]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what? A dozen deaths. If that doesn't qualify for the death penalty, I don't know what will. And I'm going to get into it with Dinah Dole in just a moment regarding felony murder. But Shannon Butler, what was your observation of him in court?

[Shannon Butler]

So he walked in in a red jumpsuit. He was a little bit disheveled. He has long hair. He was disheveled. He did engage with his public defender quite a bit, sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at what the prosecutors were saying. The prosecutors had some conversations with the courtroom about him breaking up with a girl just before he allegedly started this fire, that he broke up with her. And he was in kind of a bad state, didn't have any friends, didn't have a network. And that's kind of when things started to go downhill.

[Nancy Grace]

Shannon, stop. Stop right there. You think I Care. He broke up with his girlfriend, who on this panel has never been dumped at least once. We've all been dumped by somebody, and we've all dumped somebody. So what? He is, what, In a bad place.

[Dina Dahl]

What.

[Nancy Grace]

What are you saying to me? He was in a bad place. He had a car, he had earpods, he had a full stomach, a place to stay, gasoline in his car. You know, people around the world. That means he's in the top 1% of people in the world. So what do you mean he's in a bad place? So bad he had to kill. Kill 12 people and destroy the lives. Did you hear Stephanie Lydecker? Her whole place gone, her son evacuated. She didn't even know where he was.

[Shannon Butler]

Yeah, that's what the prosecutors basically said, that what has happened to him was not. Didn't really give a good excuse for what happened here. They said when they approached him and started to interview him back in January that he told a lot of lies to those investigators. They wouldn't. He wouldn't answer questions like, what kind of cigarettes do you smoke? And today in court, they found out not only did they know he had one gun that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a zipper on it, a child's toy. That's where he was keeping this gun. But today the special agent got on the stand and said, just today they got some evidence back that he had a second gun in his possession that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very honest in those original interviews, and that was another reason they thought he should stay here behind bars.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight back out to Shannon Butler, wftv, Channel nine, who has been in the courtroom observing the defendant. This is a huge break in the case. It's very hard to determine first whether a case is arson because the evidence is all burned up. And then if it is arson, intentional, who did it. The last thing you want is a firebug, a pyromaniac with two guns wandering around who's threatening people. So the judge did the right thing, keeping him behind bars. But you stated that he was. You said shaking his head. I assume that means shaking his head. No, not nodding his head. Yes, Correct.

[Shannon Butler]

Correct.

[Nancy Grace]

Did he say anything in court?

[Shannon Butler]

No, he didn't. The only thing that he said was the judge asked him again how to pronounce his name, and he gave him the pronunciation of his name, but that's all. All he said in this about an hour and a half hearing this morning.

[Nancy Grace]

Shannon Butler, you said that he was disagreeing with what the prosecutors were saying?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Yeah.

[Shannon Butler]

He shook his head when they started talking about his ex. Girlf that on New Year's Eve, right before this fire started, he had text his ex. She did not answer. He had text somebody else that said, no, I don't want to hang out. I need some space. And then a third person he text to try to hang out with on New Year's Eve said they didn't remember him. So he was shaking his head during that and a couple of other times when they were talking about those incidents inside the home where he was living. Nancy let me point out too, that the brother in law and the sister were so afraid inside their home they wanted to get him out. And police said, you know, you probably should leave. Here's how you evict somebody. But they were so scared, in the meantime, they moved out of their own home and he was living in that house by himself because the brother in law and the sister did not want to live with him anymore with their kids. They thought he was just not in the right state of mind given the last couple of things that had happened.

[Andrea Barber]

Wow.

[Nancy Grace]

His sister, her husband and children move out of their own home rather than live with him there out of fear. Okay. I see a case beginning the building of a case. It's not just some dystopian painting he created on ChatGPT. It's not just listening to lyrics where you see a guy burning up money starting a fire in a trash can and you watch it over and over and over and over and the guy singing is just totally miserable. But we're getting more evidence. We're getting more evidence. I want you to hear what the US Attorney has to say.

[U.S. Attorney]

It took the defendant several tries to contact 911 to report the fire. He fled the scene in his car, but turned around after passing fire engines driving in the opposite direction to fire fight the to fight the fire. While the Lockman fire burned, the defendant walked up the same trail from earlier that night to watch the fire and firefighters using his iPhone to take short videos of the scene.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dina Dahl joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of this jurisdiction. You've got the alleged perp calling 911 over and over and over from the scene where the fire started. That speaks to me that means something. In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever investigated and prosecuted. The perp himself called 91 1. He's a millionaire. When the fire trucks arrived, he was lying a la Romanesque on the lawn across the street from his home, which was in flames after about four or five minutes. He has oh yeah, my wife's in there. Yeah, he called 911 just like this guy's calling 911. What about it, Dana Dahl?

[Dina Dahl]

Well, I think you said there alleged, we got to remember here, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty. And that's not nothing. Right? This applies regardless of how bad we think the crime is. And just because he called, I mean, to your point, what you said earlier, arson has to be intentional, it has to be malicious. The fact that he called so many times, his defense attorney Im sure will argue that if, if they can, if they are even going to concede that he lit the fire, it was accidental. And that is the evidence of him trying to call so many times, was him trying to get the fire stopped. Not showing guilt, but actually showing his innocence.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, okay. Stephanie Lydecker joining us. She and her boy were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives. Did you know in between calling 91 1, he was video. He was leaving. He was leaving the scene. Then he sees fire trucks coming, went, oh, I want to video that. He turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back and videos them risking their lives to fight the fire. So I don't know if I can add a felony count of perv, but you're leaving the scene of a fire you allegedly started. But you see, oh, here come guys and women about to risk their lives. One may die. I better get that on video. And goes back while all this is happening. You know, people have been evacuated, they're dying, and he's videoing it. That doesn't bother you? Because it bothers me.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Yeah, it bothers me a lot. Imagine what kind of a sicko would actually set a fire intentionally if in fact, this is what he did. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Then to offer to help firefighters, to help fight the blaze that he potentially started for himself. Is this an idea? That he'll be a hero? Will he be the guy that is now suddenly relevant because he's destroyed so many lives? I personally would like him to come talk to you about it. I'll hide behind you as backup. But if this is true, it is so devastating that one person could do this to so many.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Stephanie, you just brought up the idea. Did he want to pretend he was the hero? Let's analyze his acts. So he goes to the scene before the fire starts. He's there before the fire starts. The fire starts. He tries to call 911. Then he leaves. He then sees fire trucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm going to go video them while they fight the blaze. And he stays there and takes video as his rap song plays over and over. And he can see in the video a guy starting fire. And we've heard from Shannon Butler about how distraught he was. He had no one to hang out with on New Year's Eve. Really?

[Stephanie Lydecker]

Whoa. I mean, tell that to everybody who's lost absolutely everything. And also the loss of life, it's unimaginable. And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about what life was meant for him. He had a job. To your point, he had ear pods. If in fact this is true, and it really goes to show that we are that disconnected, that on New Year's Day, the start of a fresh year, this person decides that he's going to take matters into his own hands and have some dystopian photo of. Look at these videos right now. The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town that's been completely wiped off the mat. It's literally just chimneys and abandoned cars. And, you know, the ripple effect is real. Everyone is still traumatized by the event. I can't tell you how many neighbors and friends I speak to that are just lost because there's nowhere to go. There's no money to start over. So if you're lucky enough and listen, I'm one of them. That was like, I'm out. There's a new life someplace else because I'm too scared to look over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those who have lost absolutely everything. Their life is in ash and they have to now stay and figure out how to push on. In this town that is now still very far away from being inhabitable.

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of 45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

The jury deliberating the fate of a man charged in starting the Palisades fire, one of the most destructive wildfires ever in California history. Deadlocks. They hang, telling the judge they just couldn't decide. The former Uber driver on trial for the crime and a former Pacific Palisades resident is accused of starting the Lockman Fire on New Year's Eve. The fire continued to smolder underground for about a week, even after LA firefighters thought it had been put out. But the flames reignited, erupting in the deadly, fatal Palisades fire, killing 12 and destroying thousands of homes. Now, prosecutors at trial argued the perp deliberately set the fire, claiming he grew angry and resentful of the wealthy residents. And he viewed Pacific Palisades, where a lot of Hollywood stars live, as a symbol of his own frustration. Oh my stars. Deadlock with facts like these, renderneck gives

[Sidney Sumner]

conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail that night and where he was when he called. RenderNet claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but location data shows While speaking with 911, he's just 30ft from the fire's origin.

[U.S. Attorney]

He lied about where he was when he first saw the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of a hiking trail. Geolocation Data for the 911 call showed that he was standing above the fire in a clearing merely 30ft from the blaze as it rapidly grew, asking ChatGPT,

[Nancy Grace]

Is it my fault if I started a fire with a cigarette? Straight out to Moses Castillo, joining me, private investigator for the Durdulian Law Group, former supervising detective with the LAPD and you can find him at Moses castilloinvestigations.com Really? Starting a fire? Is it my fault If I killed 12 people with a cigarette, started a fire, then I ran from the scene, then I decided to video the cops and the firefighters because I thought maybe one of them would die? I mean, what is a jury going to make of this? Do you believe that's going to be the defendant, Moses Castillo? I accidentally started a fire with a cigarette. With all this other extrinsic circumstantial evidence.

[Moses Castillo]

Okay, Nancy, this is no fireworks, no lighting, no power lines. Just one man, one lighter, and a trail of digital breadcrumbs. He filmed this fire, he chased the fire trucks, and he asked AI to be liable. That's not remorse. That's rehearsal.

[Nancy Grace]

What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo?

[Moses Castillo]

I mean that he pre planned this. He intended to do this. What I do believe it's going to be very challenging for the government to prove their case is the fact that the fire department, they thought they put this fire out and six or seven days later, the wind reignited. I think that's going to be a bigger issue for the government's case.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, so let me give you a comparison, Moses Castillo. I shoot you in the leg, I aim for your heart, but I get your leg and you linger in the hospital for six days. And then the gunshot wound to your leg causes a pulmonary embolism and it goes to your brain and you die. So what? I'm not going to be charged with murder? Think about it, Moses. Answer.

[Moses Castillo]

Well, you bring a very good point. And yes, that person should be charged for murder because it was me. But in any event, here I do believe that there enough evidence, circumstantial evidence, and digital footprint defense that can get him convicted. I'm just saying that the defense is going to argue, you know, if the fire department would have done their job properly, this wouldn't have happened. I think it's going to be a defense, although I don't buy it. I think he definitely has the profile of somebody who would do something like this. And this is just. This should be treated as a violent crime, not just arson by itself.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I want to get back to what Moses Castillo, who is a private eye there in California is saying. Listen to what the U.S. attorney said.

[U.S. Attorney]

Although firefighters suppressed the blaze, the fire continued to smolder and burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation. So that fire started on January 1 and it smoldered underground for about a week until on January 7, heavy winds caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground, causing what became known as the Palisades Fire, one of the most destructive wildfires in Los Angeles city history.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Nicole Brock. She is a veteran firefighter and emt, arson expert at the Atlanta jurisdiction. Nicole Brock, what is a holdover fire?

[Sidney Sumner (Investigator)]

Well, hold over fires, Nancy, are firefighters worst nightmares? They are the fires that we once we believe that they have been out, we've extinguished the fire, they have a way of rekindling and a lot of jurisdictions, particularly like mine, we call them rekindle fires.

[Nancy Grace]

NICOLE brock, the theory is, according to the defense, this was an accidental fire started by a cigarette. How do you prove arson?

[Sidney Sumner (Investigator)]

So again, arsons are difficult to prove and to link it back to one cigarette is going to be hard. The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this particular situation is the ignition pie. How many ignition points the things that they're going to be looking for are fuel was there, fuel that was used. And that's easy to detect too because you'll see a different charring that comes differently than you will see with something that just started with natural vegetation. I believe that unfortunately with this particular suspect, I think he's going to have a hard time with trying to prove his case and that he, he used a cigarette or he accidentally started his cigarette. All of his actions point back to arson activity. Arson. These are things that arsonists do.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra Pfeiffer, her home destroyed in the Palisades fire. Alexandra, thank you for being with us.

[Alexandra Pfeiffer]

Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage.

[Nancy Grace]

Alexandra, what happened that day?

[Alexandra Pfeiffer]

I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire and the seven day gap. So in the morning just before lunchtime around 11, those of us I live on a bluff below where the fire started. And if you looked up to the top of the crest of the hills that were behind us, you could see smoke. And fire in our neighborhood is not uncommon. We've had a lot of brush fires. This felt different. And the thing is, is from that fire, from the first that they put out, there had been warnings all week that we were going to have. I mean the Santa Ana winds are a thing we know about them. We were being warned. So I mean if in fact this is arson and I kind of agree with the firefighter who said seven days is a long time for a reignition of a fire. But the, the winds were horrible even in the earlier part of the day and the fire started at around 11 and change and by the late afternoon I Mean, it was everywhere. So I left fairly early because I've grown up there. I know our community. And the fire just felt different this time and that you're now seeing images of what remained of my home and my entire neighborhood. I mean, every house was gone by the evening, by 10 or 11 at night.

[Nancy Grace]

Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different?

[Alexandra Pfeiffer]

Something about the speed when I walked outside and my driveway, sort of. If you looked north, you could see the mountains fairly clearly, and you could see the movement of the fire coming down the hill. And it was already windy. It just had. There was just a feeling of. Of a greater threat. And people usually with us, we have a fire warning. We all tend to evacuate if we know there's a brush fire. People were running around in our, you know, in their. Putting their animals in their car. And I just looked around and it just felt different. It felt a little more ominous. The. The smoke was darker. It just. I don't know. I think growing up there, you just know it. It was. I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation was going to be more than we. I certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just. The winds were already strong, and usually the winds pick up at night, and it was already windy by midday. So I just. I don't know. I think those of us who lived there, we just had a feeling that you knew. Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining a psychoanalyst in this jurisdiction. Dr. Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you are driving down the interstate, let's see. And you look over there and you see a brush. Fine. And you're not afraid. It doesn't put you in fear. As opposed to what Alexandra is saying, she knew in her bones this was different, and immediately started to evacuate. It was just a feeling.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

It was instinct, Nancy. It's a survival instinct. You know, I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about an hour and a half north of the Pacific Palisades, and I felt it psychologically up here, the winds were so horrendous, I was afraid they were going to blow the roof off of my house. I had a very eerie feeling. And then I turned on the news and I heard about the Palisades. And this. This perp, this alleged perp, Nancy, you know what I think is so terrifying about this is that he did rehearse. Like Moses said. I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is a compulsion. Just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging and purging. Often there's a buildup of feelings that the perpetrator cannot self regulate and the only way to neutralize the feeling is to engage in the act. And in this case, it is pyromania.

[Nancy Grace]

Alexandra Pfeiffer joining us, who lost her home. What happened? You see the fire, you realize people are evacuating, you know, in your bones, I could die, my family could die. What did you do?

[Alexandra Pfeiffer]

Well, I was, my, my biggest regret is I just left. I had more time than I realized. But listening to you, I think you're right. I, I am a pretty strong willed person. I, I trust my instincts. I did feel that it was not going to end well. And I, I, I, we had, my daughter had bunny rabbits. I put them in my car and I just drove away. But I also had friends who lived. So there are a lot of different pockets of the Palisades. For those people who don't know the Palisades, everybody thinks it's just a small little niche neighborhood in la. It's pretty vast and there are different neighborhoods and some people live up on the hill. One of my friends who lived up on the hill called me as she was driving down the hill in her car, caught fire. So I didn't want to wait. But because I didn't wait, I lost all of my belongings. I had no time. I just put our animals in the car and I drove away. And my assistant who worked for me was stuck in traffic and couldn't get out. So, I mean, I feel like it was about for me. I just felt it was more important that I got out than I got my things out. And so everything perished except for our animals. Other people waited a little bit longer and were able to get some of their personal belongings out. But, you know, their lives were at risk. I just felt like it was more important to leave.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kimmel crowns joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, Fort Worth, esteemed lecturer Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue, Dodger Crowns. In my experience of investigating and prosecuting arsons which are a highly technical case to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to do that. Typically, victims die in three ways. They either suffocate, they actually burn to death, or an object falls on them and they die because of blunt force trauma. Dr. Kendall crowns people that die of smoke inhalation, they live for a period of time. They know they're dying. Dr. Krans yes, that's correct.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

When the Smoke is building up, as many of the people have testified to today, that your eyes burn, your throat's burning, you're starting to get mucus production, you're coughing, you're hacking, you're gagging. And as you're breathing in this smoke, you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is causing you, your body, to displace oxygen. And now you're no longer giving proper oxygen to your tissues. And eventually you'll not get enough oxygen because the carbon monoxide in your tissues will die, and then you die. And this takes place over several minutes to even a half hour, so depending on how high the smoke is, how much carbon monoxide there is. So, yes, you're very aware of what's going on during that time period, trying to get out, trying to escape, coughing, you know, gagging, whatever, but you can't get out. And then you're correct, the other ones are things collapse, fall on you and pin you, and then you burn to death. Or you just get surrounded by the fire and you burn from that as well. And then the fire itself burning you is extreme pain. And you're in pain for several seconds to a few minutes until you finally succumb to shock and pass out.

[Nancy Grace]

Alexandra Pfeiffer joining us, who lost her entire home in the Palisades fire. That could have been you. What Dr. Kendall crowns just described. I hope you never feel remorse about not getting your things.

[Alexandra Pfeiffer]

Makes me so emotional, Nancy. But here's what a lot of people don't say, and I said this earlier on when this happened, is that we this happened in the day. If this had happened at night and the fire had started it 6pm, not 11am think about how many people have no landlines, take sleeping pills, don't check their, turn their cell phones off at night. I mean, of course, any loss of life, nobody should have died in this fire. But imagine if it had happened at night and if it had burned and escalated in the middle of the night. I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I'm here and that I can, you know, have time with my family following this. And the things don't matter. You're right. But it's still. It doesn't leave your head.

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

The defense argued there is no direct physical evidence tying the defendant to the fire and claim the prosecution's case relies

[Nancy Grace]

only on circumstantial evidence.

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

Did he not read the law? It is the black and white letter of the law that circumstantial evidence is as powerful as direct evidence with the same probative weight.

[Narrator (Mistrial Announcement)]

The jury's inability to reach a decision on any of the three charges led a federal judge to declare a mistrial, the jury foreman said. After more than 13 hours of deliberation, the jury was split 10 in favor of not guilty, two in favor of guilty. U.S. district Judge Ann White pulled the panel, asking if more deliberations could thaw the deadlock. When each juror answered no, she declared a mistrial, setting the stage for a retrial. Starting from scratch, the prosecutor says the district attorney's office fully intends to retry the case.

[Nancy Grace (Narration/Commentary)]

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Gray's Crime Stories Signing off. Goodbye, friend.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Foreign

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[Alexandra Pfeiffer]

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[Stephanie Lydecker]

Okay rock, paper scissors for it.

[Nancy Grace]

Rock, paper, paper scissors.

[HomeServe Advertiser]

Shoot.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card.

[Nancy Grace]

Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms Apply

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one job judgment anyway, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 per month required Intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] this is Jody Sweet

[Andrea Barber]

and this is Andrea Barber from How Rude. Tandoritos Chewy has over a hundred thousand products. Food, treats, toys, beds and everything ships fast. And it's not just for dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles. I mean they got everybody covered, plus prescriptions, pet insurance and telehealth. Vet visits and vet clinics are rolling out now, which I love.

[Stephanie Lydecker]

So many great things.

[Andrea Barber]

And if your pet doesn't love something, return it within a year. For Life with pets, the answer is chewy. Save 20 on your first order with free shipping at chupanions.chewy.com how rude.

[Nancy Grace]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.