CARNIVAL CRUISE TEEN CHEERLEADER 'FOUGHT FOR HER LIFE,' STRANGLED DEAD, WHY NO CHARGES?

Summary

---

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: CARNIVAL CRUISE TEEN CHEERLEADER 'FOUGHT FOR HER LIFE,' STRANGLED DEAD, WHY NO CHARGES?

Date: December 1, 2025

---

Overview of Episode

Nancy Grace investigates the disturbing death of Anna Kepner, a teen cheerleader found dead on a Carnival cruise ship, her body hidden under a cabin bed. The episode dissects the latest findings from the autopsy, family and witness statements, crime scene mishandling, potential suspects, and why, despite a homicide ruling, no charges have been filed. With a panel of legal, investigative, medical, and psychological experts, Nancy fiercely challenges the lack of answers and transparency surrounding Anna's tragic case.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Crime Scene and Crime Details

• Discovery: Anna Kepner, a highly organized high school cheerleader aspiring to join the police K9 unit, was found dead, “her body…stuffed under a cruise ship bed, wrapped in a blanket, mummy style…and then with life jackets crammed on top of her to hide her body.” (Nancy Grace, 02:06)
• Autopsy: Ruled as homicide by mechanical asphyxiation—likely mechanical strangulation, with two pronounced bruises on the side of Anna’s neck. Signs suggest a “bar hold” or “carotid sleeper hold” was used (Dr. Kendall Crowns, 07:23).
• Crime Scene Handling: Carnival cruise staff, not actual police or trained crime scene investigators, first processed the scene, raising alarm about DNA evidence preservation (Robert Crispin, 05:10).

2. Evidence and Medical Insights

• DNA and Physical Evidence:
  • Crucially, whether Anna fought for her life may be evidenced by DNA under her fingernails, scratches on her or the suspect, and internal signs of struggle (Dr. Crowns, 25:44).
  • Delay and mishandling could mean evidence is now “all gone.” (Robert Crispin, 05:10)
• Toxicology/Sexual Assault Kit:
  • No public confirmation yet of a sexual assault; family and unnamed sources claim there was no sex attack, but, as lab results and toxicology can take 6-8 weeks, this is unverified (Shannon Butler, 09:25; Dr. Crowns, 10:56).
  • Nancy insists: absence of DNA or sperm does NOT rule out sexual assault (Nancy Grace, 14:37).

3. Suspects and Witness Statements

• Stepbrother as a Focus:
  • Reported by Anna’s ex-boyfriend that Anna felt unsafe around her stepbrother and was afraid to tell her parents (Robert Crispin & Shannon Butler, 16:05–18:41).
  • Ex-boyfriend gave a firsthand account of seeing the stepbrother “climb into Anna’s bed” via FaceTime (Nancy Grace, 16:47; Shannon Butler, 18:11).
  • The “close relationship” was described as “one-sided” and “obsessive” by multiple sources.
  • Court records suggest in ongoing divorce/custody cases that the stepbrother is a suspect and is exercising his right to remain silent (Shannon Butler, 32:10).
  • Following the incident, the stepbrother was “distraught,” hospitalized for psychiatric observation, and has claimed amnesia regarding the events (Robert Crispin & Nancy Grace, 35:52–43:46).

4. Possible Motives, Family Dynamics, and Reporting Issues

• Blended Family Stigma:
  • Psychological expert Dr. Janie Lacey discusses how abuse in blended families is often dismissed or minimized to “‘present this unified happy family image’ even at the expense of children’s safety.” Victims often confide in friends/boyfriends, not parents (Dr. Lacey, 18:59).
• Reporting of Sexual Abuse:
  • Victims rarely report sexual assault due to shame, disbelief, and blame. Cruise lines also have a poor track record of recording and reporting assaults, as their business interests are at stake (Spencer Ehrenfeld, 21:11).
  • Nancy raises the point: “Just because there’s not DNA, just because there’s not sperm on or in her body does not mean there was not a sex attack.” (14:37)
• Misinformation and Media Gag Orders:
  • Contradictory statements about alcohol consumption and a court-imposed gag order now limit official disclosures (Nancy Grace, 12:05, 30:59).

5. Investigative Process and Frustrations

• Lost Evidence/Delays:
  • Hospitalization of the suspect may have eliminated key forensic evidence (clothes, skin, fingernail scrapings) (Spencer Ehrenfeld, 36:49–37:58).
  • Carnival Cruise’s crime scene protocol criticized for lack of proper evidence securing (Robert Crispin, 05:10, 37:58).
  • Both family and public are frustrated by the lack of progress or charges from the FBI (Shannon Butler, 44:59).
• No Charges Filed:
  • Despite strong circumstantial evidence and autopsy findings, no one is currently charged, and the suspect is only “under watch.” The family and public express deep discontent with the lack of transparency and movement (Shannon Butler, 44:59; Nancy Grace, 44:32).

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the Crime Scene:
  • “It is a floating crime scene.” — Nancy Grace (04:02)
  • “These are guys who took a test on the internet, got their license, and all of a sudden they're protecting, you know, 4,000 people on a cruise ship. But what's critical about this homicide is going to come down to DNA.” — Robert Crispin (05:10)
• On Medical Evidence:
  • “Mechanical asphyxia is basically some sort of compression on the chest or neck that makes it impossible for you to breathe…either one of those scenarios could be what they're defining as mechanical asphyxia or mechanical strangulation.” — Dr. Kendall Crowns (07:23)
  • “That can cause the petechial hemorrhages to become more expressed or more pronounced, because you keep getting that blood flow restored and then getting stopped.” — Dr. Crowns on evidence of struggle in strangulation (27:33)
• On Family Dynamics:
  • “Adults minimize concerning behaviors because acknowledging them, Nancy, would mean they have to confront deeper problems in the family structure...” — Dr. Janie Lacey (18:59)
• On Reporting Issues:
  • “The cruise lines are guilty of not reporting [sexual assaults]...if they're not reported, the cruise lines don’t have to report it.” — Spencer Ehrenfeld (21:11)
• On Suspect’s Reaction:
  • “He was an emotional mess. Couldn't speak. Couldn't believe what happened. He was in the room when it happened, according to circumstantial evidence. Unless we want to believe she choke held herself and stuffed herself under the bunk.” — Nancy Grace (40:25)
  • “That can be a shock, truly a shock...or it could be the consciousness of guilt, those emotions can come on, come on strong.” — Dr. Janie Lacey (41:02)
• On Evidence Handling Delays:
  • “When he went to the hospital, I’m sure that he changed his clothes...all sorts of things that would have been invaluable evidence…were probably lost by that trip to the hospital. It really interrupted the chain of custody...” — Spencer Ehrenfeld (36:49)
• On Progress (or Lack Thereof):
  • “Why do I care about his feelings? I do not care about his feelings. I care about her dead body, which, by the way, she’s been cremated. So I certainly hope they got all the evidence...” — Nancy Grace (43:46)
  • “That’s the frustration from the family and, frankly, this community...there’s so much we don’t know about this case because the FBI has not been transparent...” — Shannon Butler (44:59)
• Direct Call to Audience:
  • “If you know or think you know anything about Anna’s murder, mechanical strangulation, please call 754-703-2000.” — Nancy Grace (45:41)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:06 | Nancy introduces the case details and Anna Kepner’s background | | 03:42 | Autopsy results: homicide, mechanical asphyxiation | | 05:10 | Crime scene mishandling, DNA importance (Crispin) | | 07:23 | Dr. Crowns explains mechanical strangulation | | 09:25 | No sexual assault? Shannon Butler on what sources say | | 10:56 | Analysis: time for tox reports, DNA testing delays | | 14:37 | Nancy’s point: absence of DNA ≠ absence of sexual attack | | 16:05–18:41 | Stepbrother’s behavior, ex-boyfriend’s account | | 18:59 | Dr. Lacey on blended families and why Anna didn’t tell parents | | 21:11 | Victims’ reluctance to report; cruise lines’ coverup (Ehrenfeld) | | 25:44 | Dr. Crowns: signs of a struggle, evidence Anna fought back | | 27:33 | Petechial hemorrhages explained | | 32:10 | Stepbrother identified as suspect via court records | | 36:49 | Hospitalization and potential loss of evidence (Ehrenfeld) | | 40:25 | Stepbrother’s emotional state, family reaction | | 43:46 | Nancy’s frustration—focus should be on Anna’s death, not suspect’s feelings | | 44:59 | Shannon Butler: No charges, public/family frustration | | 45:41 | Call to audience for help |

---

Final Thoughts

The episode underscores:

• The frustrating lack of answers and slow pace of the investigation
• Gaps and failings in evidence handling (both by the cruise company and, post-disembarkation, law enforcement)
• The chilling reality that a suspect remains uncharged despite multiple red flags, backed by autopsy and witness information
• The importance of family dynamics, potential abuse, and psychological responses among suspects and victims
• The often uphill battle for justice when crimes occur in complex, jurisdiction-straddling environments like cruise ships

Nancy Grace sums up the prevailing sentiment: “Why do I care about his feelings? I do not care about his feelings. I care about her dead body, which, by the way, she’s been cremated. So I certainly hope they got all the evidence that they needed to get from her body.” (43:46)

The episode closes with Nancy urging anyone with information to come forward, emphasizing how much is still unknown and unresolved.

---

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Guaranteed Human Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings. Stay for the award winning reporting for a limited time access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart the only thing between.

You and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday Explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com, for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Where did that story come from? Book Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Meco Mini plus, the AI companion that co creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time. What color was the hamster's cape and what did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini plus and the magic of AI Exclusively at Costco.

Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whimsound Smart Speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $2.99. From Quiet Mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whim Sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life and for yourself. Whim Sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whim Sound that's W I I M S.

[Nancy Grace]

O U n D Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Carnival Cruise Teen Girl the little cheerleader we now learn fought for her life. Strangled. Dead. A mechanical strangulation. What is that and why? No charges? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Teen Girl Anna dead on a carnival cruise. Her body is found stuffed under a cabin bed, life vests stuffed on top of her to hide her dead body in the last hours. Anna Kepner the teen girl cheerleader going to that Titusville Christian school already had her future mapped out. Very organized. Planning to join the military and ultimately be a police officer in the K9 unit. That little girl, the one scrubbed in. Sunshine. Let's see a picture of Anna, please. There you go. That's Anna Kepner. She's dead. Yes. The first photo was her experimenting with blonde hair. She's dead. Stuffed under a cruise ship bed, wrapped in a blanket, mummy style, we've been told. And then with life jackets crammed on top of her to hide her body.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Listen, Anna Kepner's death on board a Carnival cruise ship now ruled a homicide. Her autopsy stating she was mechanically asphyxiated by another person or persons. The medical examiner finds two bruises on the side of Anna's neck. She may have been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker held an arm across her neck.

[Nancy Grace]

See her in her little dive shirt? She loved to scuba. She loved to snorkel. She loved to fish. Loved being out on the water. Joining me at the scene, private investigator Robert Crispin with Crispin Special Investigations, former federal task force for the Department of justice. That's the U.S. government. He has worked his entire life in this jurisdiction. It is a floating crime scene. And now Robert Crispin, that we learn it was a mechanical strangulation. I'm going to go to Dr. Kendall Crowns in just one moment. The crime scene. The crime scene. When you are living in close quarters with someone sharing a small, cramped space, the DNA processing of that scene becomes even more vital. I mean, it's like a petri dish of DNA, and now it's all gone. Can you refresh everyone's recollection about the cruise ship investigators that first processed that scene?

[Robert Crispin]

Well, scary enough, those guys aren't crime scene tech guys, and they're not former law enforcement guys. These are guys who took a test on the Internet, got their license, and all of a sudden they're protecting, you know, 4,000 people on a cruise ship. But what's critical about this homicide is going to come down to DNA. It's going to come down to DNA and what the medical examiner says in the autopsy, the cause of death, et cetera, et cetera. More importantly, did the victim fight DNA under her nails? Did she scratch the suspect? In all of these cases, Nancy, these victims fight for their life. They're clawing. DNA is under their nails of the suspect who's trying to kill them. This is going to be very, very, very important. Critical evidence to go towards an arrest, an indictment or something. To get this guy arrested and put in jail. It's going to take a little bit of time now because obviously we don't have a confession, because if we had a confession, he'd already be in jail. So the FBI slowly.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Hold on.

[Nancy Grace]

Just right now, right there. Robert Crispin, I heard you referring to cause of death and mod man of death as etc. Etc. Okay. I remember reading one of my own transcripts of a trial. I tried a felony, and I was writing the appeal to hold the conviction on appeal. And I must have been very, very tired by the end of that trial because I was arguing to the judge and I was making my legal argument and said, and judge, blah, blah, okay, like you're. Et cetera, et cetera. I know one person aside from myself that will take issue with the cause of death and manner of death being called, etc. Etc. Dr. Kendall crowns. Joining us, chief medical examiner, Tarrant county, host of a hit me podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. Got a lot of questions for you about mechanical stuff. Strangulation. What is it?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So mechanical asphyxia is basically some sort of compression on the chest or neck that makes it impossible for you to breathe. Specifically, mechanical strangulation, what they're referring to as a bar hold or choke hold is where the arm is placed across the front of the neck and then drawn back with the other arm, compressing your trachea and making it impossible for you to breathe. The other situation is the carotid sleeper hold, where they put your neck in the crook of the arm and then compress both sides of your carotid, causing the blood not to flow to your brain and you pass out. So either one of those scenarios could be what they're defining as mechanical asphyxia or mechanical strangulation.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, let me understand something. You put your arm across your neck to demonstrate mechanical strangulation. But we have learned tonight that Anna had two bruises on the side of her neck. Not the trach, not the front, the side of her neck. What does that mean?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So it could mean when they're compressing the neck with the arm, that they're placing pressure with the other arm along the side of the neck, and the arm is kind of to the side, causing the bruising. It could also mean that he placed her in a carotid sleeper hold and using the crook of his arm, both sides of his arm compress on either sides of her neck. Compressing her carotid and carotids and caused her to pass out and die from lack of blood to her brain.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, another thing, let me check with Shannon Butler on this investigative reporter, WFTV, Channel 9 in Florida, who's been on Anna's case from the very beginning. Shannon, we are being told that while the entire autopsy is not complete, specifically toxicology and other lab work, that there was no sign of sex attack. Have you learned that as well?

[Shannon Butler]

Yeah, that's what we understand. I mean, remember, most of the information that we had been getting came mostly from family members, but that death certificate, at least preliminary information, does suggest that that's the case. Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I'm looking at the death certificate. What part of the death certificate tells you there was no sex attack?

[Shannon Butler]

Well, the death certificate does not, but information that we've received from sources from the family members have indicated that that is not the situation.

[Nancy Grace]

Really? Really. Okay. Because you refer to the death certificate as proving there was no sex attack. And there's not one word on this death, according to my reading, that says anything about lack of sex attack or sex attack. So it's not on the death certificate. So we're getting the no sex attack knowledge from the family, is that correct?

[Shannon Butler]

The family. And from other sources that are close to this investigation. But that doesn't mean we're still a long way from having all of the answers that we need in this case. And I don't know that anybody is satisfied with the information that's been released so far.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I want to follow up on what Shannon Butler just told us from WFTV. Dr. Kendall crowns. If we don't have the toxicology report yet, then how am I to believe that we have a DNA result from a rape kit?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Well, toxicology reports can take up to six to eight weeks. So you potentially don't have the DNA report back from a. A sexual assault kit or a rape kit, because there hasn't been enough time passed. So, again, there'd have to be a little more testing done, a little more stuff done by the crime labs before it's all back. My answer to that is maybe there is still DNA out there waiting to get done, and we just don't know about it yet.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendall crowns, how long did you say it would take for a tox report? Can't there be a rush on it?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

There can be a rush on it, but typically it can take six to eight weeks, depending on what drugs are on board. Especially if there's some sort of synthetic or designer drug being looked for. It can take up to two months.

[Nancy Grace]

What do you mean by synthetic or designer? Please.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Like synthetic marijuana, bath salts, those kind of designer drugs that every so often show up that we don't have a lot of specific testing for. Some more has to be done. Every day the drug chemists are making new variations on drugs that the toxicology labs are constantly having to test for to try and keep ahead of.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, another issue. Straight up to Sydney Sunra. Joining us, crime stories, investigative reporter Sydney, the word is getting put out that there was no sex attack and that drugs or alcohol did not play a contributing factor in her death. We don't even have the tox report. We don't have a DNA report. So where is this coming from? It's premature. I agree it's premature. It's coming from family members who have seen a more detailed death certificate than has been released to the public. But how do we know?

[Advertisement Announcer]

How do they know this information if.

[Dr. Janie Lacey]

Those reports have not been made official?

[Nancy Grace]

There are so many confusing details about this case, Nancy. You know, Sydney, I think that people very often, they project what they want to be true. There was a lot made at the get go. And this is on Court video. We have it on video where a civil attorney stated that the teens had been drinking. Now Carnival Cruise says, oh no, they weren't absolutely not drinking. But again, Robert Crispin, the proof will be in the pudding. Everybody can say whatever they want to say right now. No sex attack, sex attack. No drugs or alcohol, drugs or alcohol in the system. We don't have any of those results. And again, remember the bands that everybody wears on cruise ships. They will tell whether you, I said earlier had a bag of chips, much less, much less a drink. Now I don't know that Carnival Cruise would give a minor a drink. So it may very well not show up on a wristband. Again, they're denying any alcohol was served to a minor. But could the minor get the alcohol in another way? Haven't you ever driven up to a 711 and you see a bunch of teens out there and they're paying people or asking people to bring them out beer?

[Robert Crispin]

Absolutely. I've seen it. As a matter of fact, Carnival's blanket statement has to be that, Nancy, they can't come out to the public and say that they serve miners at sea. They can't do that. And any of this information that's coming out is being released from the family. And don't forget, Nancy, they had at least 24 hours before that ship Got back to the port of Miami that that family was able to get together, concoct their story and see or decide what they're going to release. They had a lot of time. Family protects family. And that's why this family may not want to release that she was sexually assaulted. If she was, they don't want that out there.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, Crispin.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

I learned that Anna was feeling, feeling badly, she's felt poorly. It was because of her braces were hurting her and she asked to go back. She asked to go back to the room early during dinner. She went back, but then she got dressed up and reemerged. And what we are learning is she had on this cute little outfit. But in one report, Crispin, just one, it said Anna was wrapped only in a blanket, with life vests stuffed over her. Only only in a blanket. Which led me to believe that she was naked under the blanket. That's yet to be borne out. But if that is true, or if she was partially clothed, why else would she have been partially clothed, stuffed under a twin bed, or naked, wrapped in a blanket unless there had been a sex attack. What I'm saying is just because there's not DNA, just because there's not sperm on or in her body does not mean there was not a sex attack.

[Robert Crispin]

Correct. And if you go back and you listen to one of the statements that was made from Anna's ex boyfriend's father that the stepson had climbed on top of her one night when she was.

[Nancy Grace]

In bed, you know, I know that Project Innocence and the Poverty Law Institute and all the defense bars, you're gonna get mad when I say this, but they could just chew on this when you don't know a horse. Look at his track record.

[Robert Crispin]

Listen, she just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Joshua 2 says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was one sided. The 16 year old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime. Anna already asleep.

[Robert Crispin]

He says, dad, I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and.

[Nancy Grace]

They didn't want to, believe me. He's like infatuated. Attracted her like crazy.

[Robert Crispin]

He's always wanted to take date her.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Chris doesn't realize it's his fault.

[Nancy Grace]

This whole thing is his fault.

[Advertisement Announcer]

If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. So keep that in mind. Christopher, I blame you.

[Nancy Grace]

That from Inside Edition and at just mom 1984 on tick tock. That's Anna's bio mom. So explain to me Shannon Butler, investigative reporter, WFTV. According to what we're learning from her ex boyfriend Joshua 2, it's not just what she said happened. He was on FaceTime with her. They were FaceTiming late at night. Anna fell asleep, but the FaceTime was still going. And he, according to reports, saw the 16 year old stepbrother crawl on top of her. He saw it's not just her saying that happened to her. And then he goes on to state she did not feel safe around him. She was scared to tell anybody because she thought he would quote, do something to her.

[Shannon Butler]

That is what he said to reporters here. He also told his dad that and his dad told reporters that there was always this fear Anna had of her stepbrother, but it wasn't just something that she talked about. The boyfriend said he knew about it and then he saw that when it happened on FaceTime and even said like get off of her. So there are a lot of questions about exactly what Anna told him and if that really happened. But that was his statement to reporters just after she was found dead on that Cruise ship.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dr. Janie Lacey, licensed psychotherapist, CEO of Life Counseling Solutions. She's an author, author. She's the star of her own podcast on YouTube. Dr. Janie Lacey, thank you for being with us. Why wouldn't she tell her parents? Why did everybody else know she was afraid of the teen stepbrother?

[Dr. Janie Lacey]

Well, Nancy, I think this speaks to a larger issue that I see in blended families, especially sometimes. Adults minimize concerning behaviors because acknowledging them, Nancy, would mean they have to confront deeper problems in the family structure. And there's often like this pressure to present this unified happy family image. But when children don't feel safe and their safety doesn't come first, and especially when a young woman says she's uncomfortable when a boyfriend reportedly witnessing inappropriate behavior, I mean those things can't be dismissed. So I would suggest that she probably didn't tell her parents because of whatever the family dynamics probably could have been minimization, dismissing or there was no safety there. So she confided in her boyfriend at the time and perhaps friends. But we see this very common in blended families when the picture of the happy family comes before the safety and the feelings of the children.

[Nancy Grace]

Nancy To Spencer Ehrenfield, known as the cruise lawyer, that's one of his specialties. He's the founder of Ehrenfield Trial Lawyers. He's also an author. Spencer, thank you for being with us. Before I take you down the garden path, of course. Cruise ship law. You had to confront this at some point in court. One in four women. Look around you. One in four women and or girls have been sex assaulted in some way. Bam. Yet we know it's not reported. We know that the statistics do not bear out that it is reported. There is shame attached to it. The girl woman thinks it's her fault. Wow, did I lead him on? Was that my fault? Society enforces it. Why is she out with a short skirt on? Why is she out at a bar by herself ad nauseam? The victim is always blamed. And I wonder in this case if this little girl that goes to this title, Christian school, wants to be a canine handler. That's her aspiration, was afraid no one would believe her or even blame her. What about it? Ehrenfeld?

[Spencer Ehrenfeld]

Yeah, unfortunately it's very true, Nancy. Both men and women who are the victims of sexual assault are very reluctant to come forward for all the reasons you just spoke of, the guilt, the shame, the stigma and all of my years of representing victims of sexual assault on cruise lines, both men and women, that many of them have been victimized before. This is not the first time they have been the victim of sexual abuse. So they have this compounded emotional paralysis that stops them from reporting it. And Nancy, if they do, the cruise lines in my experience are the least helpful to them in getting them the care they need and preserving the evidence of these types of assaults. And the cruise lines are guilty of not reporting them because those reports have to be put on the Department of Transportation website that will list the number of sexual assaults that happen per cruise line per quarter. And if they're not reported, the cruise lines don't have to report it. And if they're not reported enough.

[Nancy Grace]

That'S an incredible fact.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings stay for the award winning reporting for a limited time. Access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart the only thing between.

You and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday, explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel really real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere, explore everywhere.

Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Where did that story come from? Book Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Miko Minnie, the AI companion that co creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time. What color was the hamster's cape and what did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini plus and the magic of AI Exclusively at Costco.

Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whimsound Smart Speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8 inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker speaker for just 2.99. From Quiet Mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whim Sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim Sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whim Sound that's W I I M S.

[Nancy Grace]

O U N D Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now earlier, Dr. Janie Lacey was describing how some girls may not come forward and tell their own family about a family member or relative that is assaulting them. She brought up that this was a blended family. Well, it's very blended.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Listen, by the time Anna is 5, Christopher Kepner is having an affair with a teenage babysitter. When Tabitha Donahue turns 18, Chris marries her and they have two children together. Heather has a hard time maintaining a relationship with Anna due to the bitter divorce with Chris.

[Nancy Grace]

We have reached out to Anna's family. We have not heard back and I want to remind everyone that nobody has been charged tonight and I'm wondering why. We are told Dr. Kendall crowns that she, quote, fought for her life. How do we know that? How could we possibly know that? Tell me in a nutshell, how would we know she, quote, fought for her life? There's evidence.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Often with strangulations, the evidence is trying to get the object off your neck. So you'll see scratch marks on the neck from the individual's fingernails themselves. You can also see injuries on the person who is the suspected suspect. In the case as well. Scratches on their face, scratches on their arms. If you see intense petechial hemorrhages or small pinpoint hemorrhages on the face, you know that the compression may have been released and then brought back. And it could be that sign of a struggle as well, as well as the bruising on her neck could be from her thrashing about, trying to get the restraint off her neck. So there's a number of signs that could show that she fought back to try and get out of the hold.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendall. Crowns. You're amazing. You just told me two things I hadn't already thought of. You mentioned that if the stranglehold had been put on her and then released and she still kept fighting and it was put back, you're saying that that would result an additional particular hemorrhage, which is all the stress. You know, when you're wearing, you're getting your blood pressure, right? And it feels like part of your arm is going to blow up because of the pressure. It gets so tight, right? That's what happens to your eyes. The pressure is so tight that the tiny blood vessels in your eyes, hemorrhage, they burst. And you see that in asphyxiation, strangulation, be it manual or ligature or mechanical. So explain to me what you were saying. If the pressure had been put on her neck, released and put back, what would you see as evidence of struggle?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So, again, that would be the particular hemorrhages that you're talking about, the little pinpoint hemorrhages you see in the eye, but you also see them in the periocular region or around the eyes as well, can be throughout the face, the gums. And what happens is it only takes a little bit of pressure to compress your jugular, which is 4.4 pounds, and you're carotid, which is 11 pounds of pressure. And once those are compressed, you do still have a little bit of vertebral artery circulation coming in. But what happens when those are released? All of a sudden that blood comes rushing back into your head, and then if the compression comes back again, that blood is trapped a second time. And then that can cause the petechial hemorrhages to become more expressed or more pronounced, because you keep getting that blood flow restored and then compressed and then restored and then eventually completely choked off or constricted. And that's why you'll see more and more bursting of the hemorrhages, because of the blood keeps coming back in and then getting stopped.

[Nancy Grace]

That helped me A lot. But I still have one question regarding what does it prove? Is it probative with the original petechial hemorrhages look different than the second round of particular hemorrhages? I mean, can I look at her particular hemorrhages and determine that the pressure had been applied, Released, applied again. Could I tell that strictly from the particular hemorrhage alone?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

No. No, there would be no way. It's just if really pronounced. Well, I'm telling you the science. But if it's really pronounced, you can get an idea that there's been more blood flow restored. But if there's just minimal petechial hemorrhages that occurred initially, it won't be necessarily different. It's just that the fact that there's more of them means that there was more.

[Nancy Grace]

Something about throwing, thrashing her head back and forth. I'm trying to look for evidence proving a struggle because we have been told, quote, she fought for her life. You mentioned scratches. Got it. Agree. But what did you say about her thrashing her head back and forth, which would indicate a struggle? How can I tell?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

She thrashed, put the neck in a carotid sleeper hold and she starts pushing against the pressure on her neck. That can cause the bruising also internally when the skin is dissected up and you look at the neck muscles, you can see stretching of stretching hemorrhages of the neck muscles from them trying to pull out of the hold as well. So you can see that internally, like hemorrhages in the musculature that show that she was violently fighting against the constrictive process on her neck.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room she shares with her brothers. After eating, the teen boys come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures out again to explore floor, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone.

[Robert Crispin]

Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their cabin the night before.

[Nancy Grace]

Anna was found dead.

[Robert Crispin]

He heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning and screams.

[Nancy Grace]

From inside their room.

[Robert Crispin]

He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that. Like something was like banging around and stuff and like the chairs were getting thrown around in the room.

[Nancy Grace]

From Inside Edition, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI arising out of sudden death of 18 year old Anna Kepner. The little girl was wrapped in sheets, possibly a blanket. It was a full 24 hours before her body was found. Anna Kepner, the teen cheerleader, dead on a Carnival cruise ship. The cruise ship insisting there was no alcohol served to teens. But in a videoed court hearing, a lawyer says they were drinking. What is the truth? Don't know yet because in the last hours a gag order has been placed. In other words, the medical examiner can't speak. Everybody's clamped down. Nobody can speak. Why? Why is that? That's very, very unusual. But we're learning a lot because of divorce proceedings. Listen.

[Robert Crispin]

Court records from stepmom Chantelle Hudson's divorce indicate her 16 year old son and his stepbrother may be a suspect in the teen's murder. The FBI has remained silent. No charges have been filed.

[Nancy Grace]

I would have difficulty in them putting the 16 year old on the stand because I don't want anything done that would incriminate the young man. So I believe what they're saying. Shannon Butler joining us, WFTV on this case from the very beginning. Joining us out of Florida, you've got ongoing divorce custody proceedings. And in those, the mom of the teen stepbrother files an emergency hearing saying, I'm not answering any questions. Nobody's taking the stand because it could hurt my son's right to a fair trial. A fair trial on what? Obviously the Anna Kempner murder.

[Shannon Butler]

Yeah, that was the first we had heard about the stepbrother being a suspect. We didn't get any of that from investigators. But then you go into this, you know, separate court case and that's how that information was revealed and that's what kind of started everybody now asking these questions. And if you, you know, listen to the family members about that brother, they talk about how he was very, very distraught over this, how they had to, he had to be hospitalized, the behavior.

[Nancy Grace]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The teen stepbrother was distraught? Distraught, correct.

[Shannon Butler]

That's what they say.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Was he distraught about Anna being dead or about him being a suspect?

[Advertisement Announcer]

Come for the Black Friday seasonal savings stay for the award winning reporting for a limited time access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. But don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart.com the only thing between.

You and your best self is a start button. This Cyber Monday. Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet, and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack. Train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

[Robert Crispin]

Shh.

[Advertisement Announcer]

You won't believe what my new friend just told me about dinosaurs. Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy. It's Meco Mini plus, the AI powered companion that turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime. Meet the extraordinary Meco Mini plus, only at Costco.

Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whimsound smart speaker. Get high resolution audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just $2.99. From Quiet Mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whimsound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself. Whim Sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search Whim sound. That's W I I m S o.

[Shannon Butler]

U n d That's still the question. But the family was very, very clear that he was very, very upset after this happened and had to be hospitalized.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with nancy grace. Spencer Ehrenfeld joining us. The cruise lawyer. He's handled so many cruise ship cases, typically for the complainant, the alleged victim, not the cruise line. He's got so many. I tried to count them. Couldn't count them. Spencer we were told that the teen brother was so distraught that he had to go in the hospital. Then he was miraculously released from the hospital. He wasn't wearing a band aid, he wasn't on crutches. Why was he in the hospital? Was that a delay tactic? Then we were told he was, quote, so upset he, quote, couldn't talk to FBI investigators. Sounds a lot to me like invoking your right to remain silent.

[Spencer Ehrenfeld]

100%, Nancy and it also a destruction of evidence because when he went to the hospital, I'm sure that he changed his clothes. I don't know what happened to his clothes. I'm sure he was cleaned and his fingers and what's under his nails and all sorts of things that would have been invaluable evidence to the investigators and prosecutors in this case were probably lost by that trip to the hospital. It really interrupted the chain of custody of a lot of evidence that would have been left on him, including potentially bodily fluids and things that may have been on his hands, on his clothes.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Spencer Ironfield, you are my own personal chamber of horrors. I hadn't even thought of that yet. The, the fact that he goes straight into a hospital setting and his clothes could be God knows where. ROBERT CRISPIN that's important. I want to see his clothes. I want to look for microscopic evidence, I want to look for blood, I want to look for sperm, I want to look for her blood. And yes, I want to see his underwear. For obvious reasons. It's probably all gone.

[Robert Crispin]

ROBERT it probably is. NANCY Hence the long delay before the ship got back to locking down the crime scene, locking down the people, their clothing, not letting anyone go anywhere, intermingle, talk to people, separating everybody. It's just, it's a recipe for disaster. Those clothes tell investigators and prosecutors and judges and juries so much information, it's insane. The information that comes out of just your clothes or what comes from underneath your fingernail or what comes from actually on your body. NANCY come on. How many times have you known or heard where a fingerprint is actually pulled from a body, somebody else's fingerprint?

[Nancy Grace]

Also, because of this court hearing, we hear allegations that the teens have been drinking. Is that true? We don't know yet.

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Listen, we feel there are some circumstances regarding that, the 16 year old and the mother's judgment regarding that cruise that would affect, you know, obviously that her ability to care for the minor child, the 9 year old, the 16 year old was allowed to drink. The teenagers were given their own room in which to stay. Just a lot of circumstances that showed that the mother in this case was not exercising appropriate supervision over this child.

[Nancy Grace]

And of course, the cruise ship is vehemently denying that the teens had alcohol. Of course the family is stunned. They've got Anna dead, stuffed under a bed. They've got the 16 year old reportedly a target. Listen, he was a good student, played soccer. He played soccer, very quiet young man. He had demons, I think, in his past and he was trying to deal with those.

[Robert Crispin]

Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner are shocked. Anna's 16 year old stepbrother is being eyed as the suspect in her murder, describing them as two peas in a pod and very close. She says the teen was distraught when he learned Anna's body was found and couldn't speak during an Initial interview with FBI agents. Barbara says the teen claims he can't remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation when they arrived back in Miami.

[Nancy Grace]

He was an emotional mess. He couldn't even speak. He couldn't believe what had happened. That from our friends at ABC. Did you hear that? Dr. Janie Lacey joining us, licensed psychotherapist. He was an emotional mess. He couldn't speak. He couldn't believe what happened. He was in the room when it happened, according to circumstantial evidence. Unless we want to believe she choke held herself and stuffed herself under the bunk tonight. No charges. What does that mean to you? An emotional mess. Couldn't speak, couldn't believe what happened.

[Dr. Janie Lacey]

It means a couple things, Nancy, in that interview, her talking about his demons. So did the family know that he had some struggles and they weren't adequately addressed? And then the critical question to me becomes, then where were the adults if they were aware of these demons? And if he's emotionally distressed in these types of things. Right. That can be a shock, truly a shock, because we do have situations, Nancy, where when people go into what we would call a narcissistic type of rage, when they get some type of rejection or they're not getting the things that they want that in that moment, the heightenedness of their emotional regulation goes. And they can have these moments where they kind of black out, so to speak. And then when they come to, there's a gravity of what has happened to, in their behaviors in this, in this situation. So, you know, it also could be the consciousness of guilt. When you have the consciousness of guilt, those emotions can come on, come on strong. So I would probably say it's somewhere in those two realms, Nancy, then you.

[Nancy Grace]

Have the whole other can of worms with the bio mom. What are we hearing from her? He never once tried to call me.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Get a hold of me and anything.

[Nancy Grace]

When she died, I found out through Google.

[Robert Crispin]

Heather says on top of discovering Anna died through Internet searches instead of her father. Kepner also told her she wasn't welcome at Anna's Celebration of Life Service. She claims Kepner threatened to have her arrested at the wore a disguise to her own daughter's memorial so she could say goodbye in peace. Heather is not mentioned in Anna's obituary.

[Advertisement Announcer]

I'm going to put a wig on.

[Nancy Grace]

And wear some really tall shoes because I'm 4 foot 9. Wish to an Inside edition and back out to Robert Crispin, private investigator Crispin Special Investigations. This is his turf. He's joining us from Port of Miami. Did you hear that? The teen stepbrother is too distraught to speak. First goes into a psychiatric hold, then he comes out really quickly. Guess he wasn't that ill. Now he's too upset to talk about what happened in the room where he and Anna were alone, and she ends up stuffed under a twin bed, too upset to speak. He's too upset about, quote, what happened. He also told someone he couldn't remember what happened. So what is that? A temporary blackout.

[Robert Crispin]

So that's not uncommon. They don't remember things. Oh, I feel so bad. I got to go to the hospital. I can't believe what happened. I don't remember. Nancy, go back in the history of this kid. There's reports out there that he's had demons. I want to know, what are his demons? I want to know, did those demons come to light in that cabin with Anna?

[Nancy Grace]

Why do I care about his feelings? I do not care about his feelings. I care about her dead body, which, by the way, she's been cremated. So I certainly hope they got all the evidence that they needed to get from her body. But that said, why do I have to keep hearing about him being upset she's dead?

[Robert Crispin]

Oh, that. That's.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm upset about her death, not about his feelings.

[Robert Crispin]

I understand, but that's very, very important to a prosecutor in law enforcement, because how many times, Nancy, have we had a suspect who killed someone, never went to church in their life. They're a suspect. We can't prove it yet. And all of a sudden, now they found God. They go to church every single day. That's a sign.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm so glad you said what you just said, because. Shannon Butler, investigative Reporter, wftv, you heard what Crispin just said. The teen has not been charged. Why has the teen not been charged? That said, he's not even being held as a suspect. He is walking free. He is, quote, under watch. Under watch by who? Who's watching him?

[Shannon Butler]

Well, that's the frustration from the family and, frankly, this community along the coast there. That's the frustration. Like, when is something going to happen? When is there going to be an arrest? When are the answers going to come out? There's just so much we don't know about this case because the FBI has not been transparent with their information, their investigation, which is not unusual for the FBI, but there's lots of information that still is not out there. We can only assume that they're building the case and that something will happen soon, but there is no timeline for that. We don't know how long we'll be sitting here waiting in this family. We will have to wait for some kind of answer here.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about Anna's murder, mechanical strangulation, please call 754-703-2000. Repeat, 754-703-2000. It could be something that you observe. It could be something your child told you that Anna said. It could be something the teen boy said. If you know or think you know, please help with this investigation. It is ongoing and tonight still no charges. We remember an American Hero Officer Alex Sanders, Alhambra PD, CA Just 28 killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving fiance. American Hero Officer Alex Sanders Nancy Grace signing off.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Goodbye friend.

Come for the Black Friday Seasonal savings Stay for the award winning reporting for a limited time access to the Washington Post is just 99 cents. That's unlimited access to all of the posts for only 99 cents every four weeks. That's a great deal for the first year. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime, but don't wait. This Black Friday seasonal offer won't be here for long. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart and grab this deal before it's gone. That's washingtonpost.com iheart the only thing between.

You and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all fit. Feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

Then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean. Where did that story come from? Book? Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini plus, the AI companion that co creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time. What color was the hamster's cape and what did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini plus and the Magic of AI Exclusively at Costco.

Bring incredible sound into every corner of your home this holiday with the new Whim Sound smart speaker. Get high resolution Audio with a 1.8-inch touchscreen, smart control and modern design in one powerful speaker for just 299. From Quiet Mornings to lively holiday gatherings, Whim Sound makes every moment sound better and feel better too. Get the gift of the season for the music enthusiast in your life or for yourself? Whim sound Beautifully designed, effortlessly connected. Shop now at Amazon and search whimsound. That's W I I m s o u n d this is an iHeart podcast.

[Nancy Grace]

Guaranteed Human.