Charlie Kirk Accused Assassin Calls for Entire Prosecutor's Office Recusal

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: Charlie Kirk Accused Assassin Calls for Entire Prosecutor's Office Recusal
Date: May 16, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Notable Guests/Contributors:

• Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)
• Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Professor, Jacksonville State University)
• Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney, former Prosecutor)
• Chris McDonough (Director, Cold Case Foundation)
• Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)
• Hermania Rodriguez (Daily Mail Reporter)
• Sydney Sumner (Crime Stories Reporter)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a comprehensive breakdown of the shocking public assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk at a Utah Valley University event. The focus is on the evolving criminal case against the alleged shooter Tyler Robinson, his legal team’s motions to recuse the local prosecutor’s office, and the layers of forensic and psychological analysis surrounding the investigation and prosecution. The episode features expert panel discussion, witness accounts, forensic details, legal controversy over death penalty charges, and psychological insights into the accused.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. The Recusal Motion & Legal Maneuvering

[03:07, 40:03, 67:02]

• Tyler Robinson’s defense moved to have the entire Utah County Prosecutor’s office recused, alleging conflict of interest as a lead prosecutor’s daughter was present during the shooting.
• Judge Tony Graff denied the motion, ruling that the presence of Chad Grunander’s daughter did not materially influence prosecutorial decisions.
• Nancy reflects on her own experience with such motions, “Move number one, just as I was about to go to trial, all that prep work, the defense would jump up with a motion to have me thrown off the case. For various reasons, it never worked.” (Nancy Grace, 03:18)
• Graff’s detailed findings are seen as ensuring firm appellate grounds in expectation of possible future appeals.

Notable Quote:

“The court finds the prosecutor's daughter's presence at the rally did not factor into the prosecutorial analysis.”
– Nancy Grace, summarizing Judge Graff [67:05]

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2. Chronology & Forensics of the Shooting

[06:23, 12:15, 13:53, 19:21, 52:16]

• Charlie Kirk was shot during a Q&A, about 20 minutes into his speech, under a tent and in front of thousands of students.
• The shooter, Tyler Robinson, allegedly fired from a rooftop sniper’s position approximately 200 yards away.
• Forensic evidence includes video footage, shell casings with unique engravings, DNA on the weapon, palm and footprint impressions, and a timeline of events reconstructed from digital data and surveillance.

Notable Quotes:

“He is observed on video in a plain maroon T shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo and light colored shoes. Arriving on UVU campus in a gray Dodge Challenger at approximately 8:29am.”
– Law Enforcement Official [06:58]

“If you go to the left, to the left of the midline of the neck, this is where literally the entrance is, right up above the collar line. It appeared to me you’ve got just copious amount of blood that immediately begins to issue forth from him.”
– Joseph Scott Morgan [29:10]

Major Timeline Points:

• 9/10/2025, 8:29 AM: Shooter arrives on campus (6:58)
• 12:23 PM: Charlie Kirk is shot (12:15)
• 36 Hours Later: Robinson apprehended (13:53)

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3. Shell Casings, Engravings & "Memes"

[07:27, 11:28, 77:38, 78:49, 81:55]

• Several shell casings were found with inscriptions, some referencing online memes (“notices bulge uwu”, “if you read this you are gay”), and a WWII partisan anthem.
• Debate ensues over whether these engravings signal political motive, trolling, or both. The defense argues they were just jokes, referenced in Discord messages to his roommate/romantic partner.

Notable Quotes:

“Who engraves bullets? I guess this guy... But that says to me, Randolph Rice, the roommate was there when Robinson was engraving the bullets. Hello, accomplice, co-defendant.”
– Nancy Grace [79:17]

“The messages are mostly a big meme. If I see ‘notices bulge UWU’ on Fox News, I might have a stroke.”
– Tyler Robinson, quoted text message [78:49]

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4. Apprehension and Investigation Tactics

[14:59, 16:32, 23:43, 24:14]

• Detailed explanation of how surveillance, witness interviews, cell phone footage, and public tip lines expedited the investigation.
• The FBI and local law enforcement quickly mobilized, distributing images and collecting evidence from hundreds of sources.
• Discussion on the suspect’s attempt at escape, including limping after leaping from the roof and ditching the rifle.

Notable Quotes:

“You look for the truth. You follow the evidence.”
– Dan Murphy [18:57]

“[The area] is so tightly monitored. Bad choice. Bad area to select if you are trying to remain anonymous.”
– Joseph Scott Morgan [22:43]

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5. Profile of the Accused—Psychology and Background

[57:32, 59:07, 71:27]

• Tyler Robinson described as intelligent, from a loving home, but dropped out of college, became withdrawn and politically radicalized.
• Psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall links the profile to narcissistic vulnerability, failure to cope with setbacks, and the need for power in response to feeling marginalized.

Notable Quotes:

“This type of disorder is what we call psychobiological, meaning...there’s something wrong with his brain. If you did a brain scan, you would probably see that there’s a quieting in the part of the brain responsible for empathy.”
– Dr. Bethany Marshall [73:01]

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6. Death Penalty, Charging Strategy & Legal Debate

[44:05, 46:36, 48:41, 62:54]

• Robinson faces aggravated murder (capital offense), enhanced by factors including shooting in presence of children and recklessly endangering a crowd.
• Legal discussion over charging in the alternative to secure a conviction at some level, with both prosecutorial and defense strategy dissected.
• Contention over whether the aggravating factors are sufficient for the death penalty; concerns about successful prosecution, potential for plea bargaining.

Notable Quotes:

“They loaded him up. That’s right. With so many alternative counts it will be hard for a jury to find him not guilty.”
– Nancy Grace [44:33]

“They may be using this as leverage to force him or try to get him to take a plea. But the aggravating circumstances at this point, I think, are very, very thin.”
– Randolph Rice [46:36]

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7. Digital Evidence and the Modern Crime Scene

[55:06]

• Use of cell phone data—Robinson’s phone turned off during the murder, then reactivated.
• This pattern is likened to other headline cases (referencing Kohberger).

Notable Quote:

“These phones are the modern crime scene...Patterns of behavior...Why are you going to turn it off at this particular time?”
– Randolph Rice [56:11]

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8. Family’s Role & Discovery

[68:26]

• Robinson’s mother recognized her son in FBI-released images and called him; he lied, claiming to be home sick.
• After confirming with her husband, the family contacted authorities—sparking discussion about parental guilt and responsibility.

Notable Quotes:

“If I saw my son or daughter in a baseball hat and a pair of sunglasses, I would still know it’s them.”
– Nancy Grace [69:24]

“She sees the image, it’s confirmed, she calls dad. Reality meets internal fearfulness. And now she’s the one who has to turn him in. Maternal guilt, Nancy. She’s going to feel maternal guilt not only that she turned him in, but that she gave birth to somebody who could have done this.”
– Dr. Bethany Marshall [70:25]

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9. Witnesses, Roommate/Boyfriend, and Accomplice Debate

[79:17, 81:55, 86:09]

• Robinson’s roommate, who was in a romantic relationship with him and reportedly witnessed bullet engraving, provided crucial text evidence.
• Discussion over whether the roommate could or should be charged as an accomplice, balanced against the need for his testimony.

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10. Trial Transparency and Media Access

[91:30]

• Despite defense arguments citing potential jury bias from publicity, Judge Graff allows cameras in the courtroom to ensure public access but keeps cameras at the back to limit exposure of the defendant.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On defense legal tactics:

  “I had that happen to me many, many times in court. Move number one, just as I was about to go to trial, all that prep work, the defense would jump up with a motion to have me thrown off the case. For various reasons, it never worked.”
  – Nancy Grace [03:18]

• On the unique shell casing engravings:

  “A second unfired casing read ‘oh Bella chow, bella chow, bella chow, chow chow.’ And a third unfired casing read, ‘if you read this, you are gay.’”
  – Law Enforcement Official [07:27]

• On the rapid manhunt and arrest:

  “Thanks to the full weight of the federal government and leading out with the partners here in the state of Utah and Governor Cox, the suspect was apprehended in historic time period.”
  – FBI Official [12:15]

• On motive, politics, and chilling text admissions:

  “Why did I do it? Yeah, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence...How long have you been planning this? A bit over a week, I believe.”
  – Tyler Robinson, quoted text [89:13, 89:29]

• On the burden of aggravating circumstances for the death penalty:

  “In order to seek the death penalty, you have to include aggravating circumstances. Just murdering somebody is not enough.”
  – Nancy Grace [61:22]

• On speculation, rumor, internet culture and its effect:

  “We thought that he was making some kind of statement with these bullet inscriptions...but it seems based on his texts that they were just a giant joke.”
  – Sydney Sumner [78:13]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:07] – Recusal motion against prosecutors discussed & legal context
• [12:15] – Timeline of shooting; rapid investigation and federal response
• [14:59]/[16:32] – Forensic scene analysis and crime-solving steps
• [29:10] – Forensic discussion of shooting and victim injury
• [40:03] – Summary of legal maneuvers concerning prosecution and death penalty
• [44:05 – 50:09] – Breakdown and debate on criminal charging strategy, death penalty enhancements
• [52:16] – Surveillance and evidence tracing suspect’s movement on campus
• [57:32] – Profile of the accused; family background and psychological analysis
• [67:02] – Judge’s decision rationale denying recusal motion
• [71:27 – 73:45] – Parental perspective and psychological impact
• [77:38 – 79:17] – Roommate, meme culture, and text evidence
• [91:30] – Courtroom transparency and public access rulings

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Summary & Conclusion

This in-depth episode offers a multidimensional analysis of the Charlie Kirk assassination, from compelling legal arguments over case management to the nuanced forensic, psychological, and sociological facets of the investigation. With expert perspectives and exclusive details, the episode documents a case that intersects public safety, political ideology, the modern digital landscape, and the enduring human struggles within families and the justice system.

Nancy Grace’s closing point: The defense motion to recuse was one of many strategies that will surface as the trial unfolds, and the case stands as a chilling example of how modern crime – and its legal aftermath – are shaped not only by evidence but by culture, media, and the personal tragedies beneath the headlines.

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Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

Stories with Nancy Grace

[Nancy Grace (Legal Commentary)]

Charlie Kirk's alleged killer Tyler Robinson, the so called assassin, demands the top prosecutor be thrown off his case. I had that happen to me many, many times in court. Move number one, just as I was about to go to trial, all that prep work, the defense would jump up with a motion to have me thrown off the case. For various reasons, it never worked. It was just another problem to deal with when you need to focus on your case. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. That's right, you heard me. Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin Tyler Robinson demands the top prosecutor in his case be thrown off a Utah judge hearing the allegations against the prosecutor. Judge Tony Graff first determined the Utah County Attorney Jeffrey Gray's decision to pursue the death penalty was not influenced by the daughter of another prosecutor within the office. That daughter of a co worker who is Chad Grunader was present when Charlie Kirk was gunned down last September 10th. That had been thrown at Judge Graff that the death penalty should be taken off the table because it was influenced by the daughter of the prosecutor's co worker. Well, that didn't work. You can see the defense is trying everything now. The alleged killer wants the prosecutor thrown off the case.

[Court Reporter]

Nancy Robinson's request for the entire Utah County Prosecutor's office to be recused from his case has been denied. The defense claims a potential conflict of interest has been mishandled. A lead prosecutor's child was at the event where Charlie Kirk was assassinated and that, according to the defense, tainted the office's decisions. But a judge has ruled the child's attendance did not materially influence prosecutors actions. Deputy attorney Chad Grunander's 18 year old daughter is a student at Utah Valley University where the assassination took place. He testified his child attended the Turning Point USA event where Kirk was shot last year. The teen did not see the fatal movement or witness anybody in the crowd who may have been a suspect. According to prosecutors Utah County Attorney Jeffrey Gray appointed Granander as one of the prosecuting attorneys. He told told the court the child's presence was completely irrelevant to the decisions made in the case. Utah District Court Judge Tony Graff agreed. Robinson has not yet entered pleas for the charges he's facing, including aggravated murder, felony use of a firearm, obstruction of justice and witness tampering, along with several victim targeting enhancements and an aggravated factor of having committed a violent offense in the presence of the child. His preliminary hearing has been moved to July.

[Nancy Grace (Legal Commentary)]

I remember the whole thing like it happened last night.

[Nancy Grace]

The lone shooter, the assassin that gunned down 31 year old Charlie Kirk with

[Law Enforcement Official]

a high degree of certainty. We have him.

Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We got him.

[Nancy Grace]

A massive manhunt.

[FBI Official]

The suspect was taken into custody at 10pm local time.

[Nancy Grace]

The assassin who gunned down a loving father of two, a husband.

[FBI Official]

The suspect was apprehended in historic time period.

[Law Enforcement Official]

In custody. In custody.

[Nancy Grace]

The assassin who guns down a father of two.

[Law Enforcement Official]

He is observed on video in a plain maroon T shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo and light colored shoes. Arriving on UVU campus in a great Dodge Challenger at approximately 8:29am Tyler Robinson. Robinson had become more political in recent years. A second unfired casing read oh bella chow, bella chow, bella chow chow chow. And a third unfired casing read, if you read this, you are gay.

[Nancy Grace]

His wife and two little children who will grow up without daddy.

[Law Enforcement Official]

This is a very sad day for again for our country and I do

[Legal Analyst]

know this is going to be a federal case and there's many of us believe that Charlie was targeted by because of his political ideology.

[Law Enforcement Official]

Yeah.

[Legal Analyst]

What's going to happen to this guy?

[Law Enforcement Official]

Well, I hope he was going to be found guilty, I would imagine. And I hope he gets the death penalty.

On the evening of September 11, a family member of Tyler Robinson reached out to a family friend who contacted the Washington County Sheriff's Office with information that Robinson had confessed to them or implied that he had committed the incident. This information was relayed to the Utah County Sheriff's Office and scene investigators at Utah Valley University. This information was also conveyed to the FBI. Investigators reviewed additional video footage from UVU surveillance and identified Robinson arriving on UVU campus in a gray Dodge Challenger at approximately 8:29am on September 10, in which he is observed on video in a plain maroon T shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo and light colored shoes. When encountered in person by investigators in Washington county on September 12th in the early morning hours. Robinson was observed in consistent clothing with those surveillance images. Investigators interviewed a family member of Robinson who stated that Robinson had become more political in recent years. The family member referenced a recent incident in which Robinson came to dinner prior to September 10th. And in that conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to uvu. They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints that he had. The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate. The family member also confirmed Robinson had a gray Dodge Challenger. Investigators identified an individual as the roommate of Robinson. Investigators interviewed that roommate who stated that his roommate, referring to Robinson, made a joke on Discord. Investigators asked if he would show them the messages on Discord. He opened it and showed several messages to investigators and allowed investigators to take photos of the screen as each message was shown by Robinson's roommate. These photos consisted of various messages including content of messages between the phone contact name Tyler with an emoji icon and Robinson's roommate's device. The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact Tyler stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush. Messages related to a. To visually watching the area where a rifle was left, and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel. The messages also refer to engraving bullets and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique. Messages from the contact Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits. I know there has been speculation as well as to the. The writing on those casings, those, those. Those bullet casings. And I believe we have that as well, and I will share that with you now. So the area north of Campus Drive Road where the suspect crossed over. You saw some of that in the video that we released last night. Consists of a grassy area with trees on the edge of the UVU campus. Investigators discovered a bolt action rifle wrapped in a dark colored towel. The rifle was determined to be a Mauser model 98.30 06 caliber.

[Prosecutor]

30.

[Law Enforcement Official]

06 caliber bolt action rifle. The rifle had a scope mounted on top of it. Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices, bulges, capital O, W, O. What's this question mark? Inscriptions on the three unfired casings read hey, fascist, exclamation point, catch exclamation point. Up arrow symbol, right arrow and symbol and three down arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read oh, bella, chow, bella, chow, bella chow, chow, chow. And a third unfired casing, red. If you Read this. You are gay. Lmao.

[FBI Official]

A little bit of the timeline. Charlie was shot at 12:23pm on Wednesday. The first FBI agents arrived on scene in 16 minutes with chiefs of police at 12:39 and secured the scene. The FBI immediately launched fixed wing assets. We utilize these assets to transport personnel, specialty technicians, hostage rescue teams. We also utilize these assets to go back and forth from the east coast and here in Utah to transport forensic evidence and other evidence that will be analyzed and is being analyzed at our FBI laboratories in Quantico and other laboratories including the atf. At my direction, the FBI released the first set of FBI photos of the suspect at 10am local time on 9 11. Then shortly thereafter the FBI reward of a hundred thousand dollars was released at 10:45am local. Myself and Deputy Director Bongino arrived on the scene at approximately 5:30pm on 9 11. The governor led a press conference last night at approximately 8pm where at my direction, the FBI released a never before seen video of the suspect. We also released new images to the public of the suspect. And just last night the suspect was taken into custody at 10pm local time in less than 36 hours, 33 to be precise. Thanks to the full weight of the federal government and leading out with the partners here in the state of Utah and Governor Cox, the suspect was apprehended in historic time period.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Joining us today, Dan Murphy, former NYPD Detective Sergeant, co host of Gold Shields podcast, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor at Jacksonville State University and co host host of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. As we begin today, shocking announcement. We already have a suspect in custody, Tyler Robinson, a 22 year old Utah resident. And apparently he was turned in or convinced to turn himself in by his father, who is now being called the father of justice, Matt Robinson. Straight out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan. Ever since the assassination of Charlie Kirk, there has been widespread speculation as to everything that took place that day, from the shot to security to what actually transpired. I want to start with the shot. We have a man in custody, so let's start with him on the roof allegedly shooting Charlie Kirk from at least 200 yards. Is that still what we believe?

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

Yeah, yeah, according to the reports that we're hearing. It sounds reasonable. We one of the interesting images that has emerged from the inspection of that alleged sniper's nest, if we can call it that, is that surface is on the roof is actually a gravel surface and there's an image that has been released of evidence markers around an area that is literally impressed into that gravel surface. That gives you the impression when you see it, that someone had laid there for a protracted period of time. Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Now, okay, on the top of a roof, oftentimes we have tar and other things like that. Would that gravel making it a kind of uneven surface, would that create a problem for somebody that is laying down to get the shot?

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

I wouldn't necessarily think so. Particularly if they had any knowledge of how. Of the weapon system that they're actually using. And we don't know all of the details yet. He may have brought something along to brace himself with. Keep in mind, this kid actually had a backpack with him. And in the military, I know from personal experience that you're trained to use things, particularly if you're in a prone position that can brace your position and that you can. That can steady. Can steady your sight picture. It wouldn't surprise me if that. If the backpack that he had up there with him may have been used for that purpose.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Okay, Dan Murphy, as a former detective sergeant, you're looking at this from solving the crime. What is the first step from the moment you learn that Charlie Kirk has been shot? You don't know his condition. All you know is we have a man shot. What is the first thing you do when you start trying to solve the crime?

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

First, you have to preserve the scene. The crime scene is of paramount importance because that is going to live with you for the remainder of this case. What you grab, what you don't grab is vital. The second is witnesses, eyewitnesses, grabbing any and everybody that's on the scene that may have seen something today. In today's world, we want to see cell phone coverage, cameras, everyone that was there who has a cell phone has shot any footage, bring it in. It's all potential evidence. We want to look around at cameras, surveillance cameras that are part of the campus. We want to look at everything. We can look at who is parked in the parking lot. This is a tremendous job that needs to be done by a lot of people, but it's vital that those steps begin immediately.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

You know, we did find out a number of things as we're doing this program. This is still a breaking news story. It is evolving. We had, we started the day with President Donald Trump on Fox News announcing that even 99% sure we had the shooter in custody, the alleged shooter. One of the things that we've been trying to figure out is who is this person who would have shot Charlie Kirk? You know, he founded Turning point back in 2012, and he has been the subject of. I. I don't know how to actually phrase this, but you know, he's outspoken conservative, Christian man and he's been labeled a hater by those on the left, just the way we live today. But as you're trying to figure out who is the shooter, we saw a guy that looked like to be 60 years old, in short pants, you know, balding. We saw him in custody briefly by police because he's, you know, talking about I do it again. We also had rumors that it was a 30 year old man, that it was not a college student. And what turns out to be the shooter or the alleged shooter is actually 22 years old. Is this something that either of you would expect as we move forward? Would you have started by thinking this is a college age person or would you have thought somebody older would have been involved in the shooting?

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

I would say you never, never want to theorize as to who your suspect is until your evidence points you there. That's a capital mistake to make and people do it all the time. And the media loves to jump because we want to assign an identity to somebody. But the fact of the matter is you go where the evidence leads you and if it turns out to be somebody who's older or younger, that's fine. Worry about what narrative it can fit later. But you look for the truth. You follow the evidence.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Absolutely. Okay. Now, Joseph Scott Morgan. We saw the shot. We saw Charlie Kirk sitting under the tent. I want to point something out. You know, before the shooting took place, there were about 3,000 paid that attended the event. Charlie Kirk was under a tent, you know, that he was sitting under, but there were people fairly close to him right up front. Then there was a walkway area in the grass of probably 12ft, I'm guessing, and then more people situated directly behind that. And before the event actually got started, before he actually was giving a speech, he was engaging with the audience. He was throwing hats and other things to the audience, getting them kind of excited and pumped up before he spoke. And then before he grabbed the mic to give a speech, he actually was doing Q and A with the audience and had them, they had two microphones set up and had people going to either mic so they could actually begin this speech by talking about things, by actually getting into a discussion. So he's a minute and a half into this as he's sitting down in the tent before he starts his speech. He's still answering questions from the crowd when the shot rang out. We, I say we all saw it. Most of us have seen the video because it was released on Social media within seconds. It wasn't like the Zapruder film where we waited, you know, where we didn't have anything for hours, and then years later. This was immediate. And there are probably plenty of people who got shots of that assassination that still have not posted it online.

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

Yeah, this ain't Dallas 1963. You know, you're going to have multiple POVs here because, let's face it, like him or hate him, he's a media figure. He was magnetic. And people want those kinds of images. It's the world that we live in today. So, you know, 180 degrees, probably 360 degrees in his orbit there. There were people videotaping. One of the things that I think that those that are going to be canvassing the area and talking to folks, they're going to want to collect those images, particularly those. I think one of the more intriguing images that you would want is something that is more to Charlie's rear. Looking back to where the shooter is, I think that we've had one of those or two of those that have leaked out. Trust me, there's more. And, you know, that's not even counting, like, cctv. I work at a university, guys. I got to tell you, I can literally step out of the door of my building here at Jack State onto the quad, and immediately I've got cameras all around me that are observing me. If you're going to try to pull something like this off and try to remain anonymous, bad choice. Because there is so much video evidence on a campus that they can pull it in seconds. Dollars to donuts, I guarantee you that the state police, probably the locals and certainly the feds, they descended on the security area there that controls all of the cameras. They have that data, trust me. Not to mention everything else that's peripheral to that. Parking lots. We've heard a lot about ring cams.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

All of the cases that we cover with Nancy, it seems like in the last two years, ring cams come into play, don't they? They're everywhere, you know, as well. And it's just. It's just that the area where this happened on a university campus is so tightly monitored and a lot of it has to do with student safety. Yeah, bad choice. Bad area to select if you're trying to remain anonymous.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Now, Dan Hampton, background in New York as a detective sergeant. Look, when we started breaking this story down beyond the shooting, because that was just shocking. And I want to come back to that in just a minute, Joe. About what? That actually. What the shooting actually did. But first we've got a shooter that the. I'm going to say the police were leaking information. It looked like they were chumming the water. They were baiting with pictures and things like that to try to get information from the public. Is that a common thing to expect? Do police really use the media in that way, Dan?

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

Absolutely. It can be your best friend. It could be your worst enemy. But more often than your best friend, when you distribute pictures to the media and the public sees it, you have a far increased chance of getting your person identified in a case like this. It was a smart move to do, and we see that his alleged discussion with his family, where he put himself at the scene, having done it, at least that's what we're told. That may have come as a result of all the pressure involved because he couldn't hide it from them. He's sitting on the news, that's me. He had to give it up. I think it was a smart move and it's done commonly.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And one of the things we saw, Fox had video of police taking down a camera over a garage, which I found fascinating because we had neighbors from the neighborhood. When he ex. When he allegedly he shoots and then he's off the building and there's actually video showing him jumping. Then we see him limping as he's walking through backyards because they were getting calls from residents saying, hey, I got video of a guy running through the backyards. So I'm going to assume that he heard himself jumping off the building as far as he had to jump, and he's limping through the backyards. He ditched the bolt action rifle on his escape route. Is that something that you would expect? Did he drop it? What do you think? Why do you think we have that gun?

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

Well, he's got a distance, that weapon from himself personally. He can't be found with that weapon on him. It's too incriminating. So he didn't want to leave it up on the roof. He took it with him and he figured he would gain some time by ditching it. Very common guns are thrown in lakes, rivers, off bridges all the time just to get rid of the evidence as much as possible. He obviously did it in a very haphazard way. This is not a career criminal or professional assassin. This is a young kid who had the intention of doing this, but didn't really think out the steps afterwards as much as he thought he would. As far as jumping off. As far as jumping off the roof is concerned, one of the things I would do. As soon as I saw any video footage of that. You check all area hospitals and clinics. That somebody come in with a broken ankle, hurt leg, that's going to be one of your investigatives.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

In the Ford Theater, jumping from the balcony, you know, breaks his leg. So now we've got a suspect in custody as this is a breaking story. The man who allegedly shot Charlie Kirk, 22 year old Utah resident, Tyler Robinson. And by the way, guys, this guy's not an idiot. Tyler Robinson actually had an academic scholarship to Logan, which is also a college in Utah. He attended the college campus where he was, but only for one semester. He's one of these really smart guys, but at 22 has not achieved a whole lot. And I think that'll be something that we get Bethany on to talk about. But there were multiple photos taken of him that have been released. We've got him in custody turning himself in. We found out that he there. I keep saying he did it, but allegedly somebody wrote on the shell casings a number of different inscriptions. Governor Utah Governor Spencer Cox actually listed out some of the things that were written on one of the shell casings. Hey, fascist catch. I would encourage people to actually go look up your definitions of what a fascist is and free speech and those wonderful things we experience here in the United States of America and realize that a lot of us grew up, hey, just do your own thing, you know, live and let live that we're not at that point anymore. Now we're at this point where if, if you disagree with what I say, I deserve to die. And that's not us. That's not who we are. We got to stop this. Charlie Kirk spoke from the heart. He spoke for years trying to get people to think deeper. And to be honest with you, it was that that led to his death. People don't want him to share what he thinks because they don't like it. I'm telling you, we've got to actually get some leaders that will talk about this openly and honestly instead of burying it now. Other words written on these shell casings, guys. Oh, Bella chow, bella chow, bella chow, chow, chow. That's from an Italian song dedicated to the resistance during World War II. Another one was if you. This is actually meant as a joke. Okay? If you read this, you are gay. Lmao. Another one notices bulges. O W O. What's this? Granted, I'm old and crazy. Get off my lawn guy. I don't know what O w o means, but it's part of an Internet meme that circulated I guess seven years ago or so. But these things written on shell casings, is that also something that is common in a shooting of this nature?

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

I have not seen it. I know in high profile cases recently, it seems to be a trend, but I have not seen it in my career.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Now, Joe, back to the shooting when Charlie Kirk was shot, because a lot of us did see it before, it was blurred. I'm, I'm still shocked, amazed and saddened that we saw this, because normally we don't. Normally it's as it is now. If you actually find a version of it online, it's going to be blurred. What did you see in terms of the shot hitting Charlie Kirk?

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

Well, from my, from my perspective, when I was watching and I watched one that was sent to me, that was kind of enhanced a bit and the shot was tighter. These physiological responses that you see as he is struck and part of it also, I think that many people that follow true crime and that hear us talk about these sorts of things, they don't appreciate the horror many times that's involved in an event like this. How shocking it is not obviously, I mean obviously to the victim, but also those that are surrounding him. In this particular case, if you go to the left, to the left of the midline of the neck, this is where literally the entrance is, right up above the collar line. It appeared to me you've got just copious amount of blood that immediately begins to issue forth from him. It's been speculated, and I include myself in that group, that there's high probability that it nicked probably the jugular as well as perhaps the carotid, given the amount of blood. Remember, these are blood supplies and returns for the brain. And the brain is the most vascular organ in the body. It requires a lot to function.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Would Charlie Kirk have been aware of what was going on after that shot?

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

That's hard to say. That's almost an unanswerable question. I do know this, that if you have seen this image he draws, you can see him drawing his right hand up and the thumb appears to be clutched. This is a neuromuscular response to neurotrauma. You'll see it with actually the brain, the brain stem as well as the spinal cord. All you gotta do is watch a football game and you'll see people that get their bell rung. They'll fall to the ground and it almost looks like a seizure. And then of course, he, he topples over to his left and begins to bleed out there. I think there's a high probability that death was probably pretty quick at this point in time. I, you know, I talked to Nancy the other day, and I said, you know, even if you'd had a group of vascular surgeons standing right there with him, this is so traumatic that I don't. I think that it probably would have been unsurvivable based upon what I've seen over the years in the morgues and, you know, and it seems, and that sort of thing.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And please remember, gang, as we talk about the assassination of Charlie Kirk. This is a father of two, had a little girl, a little boy, wife Erica. This is not us. This is not the best of us. We. We've got to do more to stop this from happening. We can have an exchange of ideas, friends, and disagree and move forward with this is just not us. So, Dan, I want to go back to you for a minute. As the investigation starts getting. Now, it doesn't stop after the arrest. This is like the beginning part of the investigation, isn't it?

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah. There's so much work going on behind the scenes right now and has been going on since the initial event. Search warrants are being conducted at his residence, in his car, at many places. The actual owner of the weapon is probably no doubt sitting in the police station right now being interviewed as to how that weapon got into this guy's hands. If he's not the owner. They are retracing steps. They are watching video footage, as Dr. Scott said before, not just of the cameras on the campus, but anything that might have been a trail that led him to the scene. They're reviewing his credit card and debit card statements. Where did he make purchases? What did he do recently? Where has he been looking at his text messages? There is so much work going on and so many witnesses are being interviewed to make a very complete, very large package. That is the investigation that will be the case, that will be presented to a grand jury and ultimately to a jury. There is a lot of work, and it's all very important. And right now, I know there's a lot of boots on the ground in that area doing that work and in other places, too. This is a massive investigation.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Now, one thing that we knew from the very beginning was that we had a footprint. We had a palm print and possibly a forearm print. I want to stick with the two that I'm actually familiar with, the footprint and the palm print. Joseph Scott Morgan, you actually were talking to me the other day about a palm print. We have a national database of palm prints, just like we do fingerprints, correct?

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

Yeah, yeah, we I mean, what, what will happen is on a fingerprint card, when somebody's rolled up and they're taken into jail, you'll get a series of prints, inked prints in the past. I'm assuming that they can digitize these as well. And traditionally you'll get an entirety of a print. It'll encompass this. But here's the rub. If this kid has never been hooked up on charges in the past, guess what? He's not going to be in that database. So, you know, that, that turns into kind of a dead end. I was really fascinated, I think, by them talking about, talking about a forearm. That's not something that, you know, is normally printed.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

No.

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

And I think that that probably goes to some surface that he's applying pressure to at that point. And we, you know, we excrete sweat and we excrete oil every day. As a matter of fact, that's. We don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers. We have friction ridges. We leave behind fingerprints. And so the same thing would apply with kind of if your skin is greasy, you lay it on a surface like this. What I'm wondering about is this going to be a spot where you can harvest contact, contact biological specimens from. I'm thinking probably it would be evidence rich in the sense that there would be sweat, there would be oil that's, you know, coming out of the body. And also, is there any partial DNA, you know, where you've got trace evidence of DNA that's degraded skin cells sloughing off? I think that's important. One other thing I'd love to bring you back to is going to be these cartridges. You know, there's a group of people that we forget about in forensics many times, and that's question documents. They can get exemplars from this guy relative to what is written on the shell casings. And they can give you an idea if this, if this has origins from his actual hand. And were they engraved or were they written? You know, because we don't know at this point.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Well, we've heard the term engraved. And my first thought was, did they have a diamond tip thing putting it on there, or was that just an expression of using a Sharpie?

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

Yeah, exactly. So again, back to Dan's point. This, this investigation is so layered and so very intense that we're not going to have all of this data at one time. Don't expect it. As a matter of fact, I would. Probably after this period of time, I would imagine we'll see a lessening of information that's being released because they're trying to put together a packet at this point in time to bring this guy up on charges and it's like playing poker, man, you're not going to show your hand. I know the public wants the information. You'll hear things from peripheries, but I would imagine that the authorities are probably going to shut it down pretty quickly relative to how much data is going to be coming out because they're going to be putting together a case. This is where this begins. At this point,

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[Nancy Grace]

Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace (Legal Commentary)]

Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin Tyler Robinson demands the top prosecutor be thrown off of his murder trial. Well, in his wisdom, Judge Tony Graff said, hell no. That's right, A Utah judge tossed Robinson's bid to kick off prosecutors on his murder case. The reasoning was one of the prosecutor's daughters was at the rally where Kirk was murdered. What happened in Utah?

[News Reporter]

The 31 year old head of Turning Point USA is shot dead during a speaking event at Utah Valley University in Orem. The shooting took place about 20 minutes into his speech. Bystanders said Kirk was hit in the neck while answering student questions. A UVU alert confirmed, quote, a single shot was fired on campus toward a visiting space speaker. Police are investigating now. Video from the scene showed students running as the shots rang out and Kirk being rushed away by his security team. Utah Governor Spencer Cox posted on X those responsible will be held fully accountable. Violence has no place in our public life. Americans of every political persuasion must unite in condemning this act. Our prayers are with Charlie, his family and all those affected. Utah Senator Mike Lee wrote, quote, please join me in praying for Charlie Kirk and the students gathered there. Vice President Vance added on X, quote, say a prayer for Charlie Kirk, a genuinely good guy and a young father. FBI Director Kash Patel said, quote, we are closely monitoring reports of the tragic shooting involving Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University. Our thoughts are with Charlie, his loved ones and everyone involved. Agents will be on the scene quickly and the FBI stands in full support of the ongoing response. Kirk himself had posted online only moments before the attack. Quote we are so back. Utah Valley University is fired up and ready for the first stop on the American Comeback Tour. Charlie Kirk rose to national prominence after co founding Turning Point USA in 2012. He has since built the group into a major conservative force on campuses, created several offshoots including Turning Point Action and Turning Point Faith, and he hosts the Charlie Kirk Show. He has been a strong supporter of President Trump and has often spoken out on issues like critical race theory and government mandates. On Wednesday, he was speaking under a tent at the university courtyard as part of his American Comeback tour. Shots were fired from the top of a nearby building about 200 yards away. The campus went into lockdown while police and federal agents swarmed the scene. Earlier reports stated a shooter was arrested, but that has been corrected by UVU to state that there is no suspect in custody.

[Law Enforcement Official]

With a high degree of certainty, we have him.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We got him.

[Nancy Grace]

A massive manhunt.

[FBI Official]

The suspect was taken into custody at 10pm local time.

[Nancy Grace]

The assassin who gunned down a loving father of two, a husband.

[FBI Official]

The suspect was apprehended in historic time period.

[Law Enforcement Official]

In custody. Right in custody.

[Nancy Grace]

The assassin who guns down a father of two.

[Law Enforcement Official]

He is observed on video in a plain maroon T shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo and light colored shoes. Arriving on UVU campus in a gray Dodge Challenger at approximately 8:29am Tyler Robinson had become more political in recent years. A second unfired casing read, oh Bella chow, Bella chow, Bella chow, chow chow. And a third unfired casing read, if you read this, you are gay.

[Nancy Grace]

His wife and two little children who will grow up without daddy.

[Law Enforcement Official]

This is a very sad day for again for our country.

[Legal Analyst]

And I do know this is going to be a federal case and there's many of us believe that Charlie was targeted because of his political ideology.

[Law Enforcement Official]

Yeah.

[Legal Analyst]

What's going to happen to this guy?

[Law Enforcement Official]

Well, I hope he was going to be found guilty. I would imagine. And I hope he gets the death penalty.

[Prosecutor]

I learned. James Robinson. Count one, aggravated murder. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury. I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. The defendant is believed, believed to have targeted Charlie Kirk based on Charlie Kirk's political expression and did so knowing the children were present and would witness the homicide.

[Nancy Grace]

Death penalty. Is the death penalty. Is the death penalty. They loaded him up. That's right. With so many alternative counts it will be hard for a jury to find him not guilty.

[Prosecutor]

Listen, I am filing a criminal information charging Tyler James Robinson, age 22, with the following crimes. Count one, aggravated murder, a capital offense for intentionally or knowingly causing the death of Charlie Kurt under circumstances that created a great risk of death to others. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, A first degree felony legal term.

[Nancy Grace]

They ain't playing. Joining me in all star panel to make sense of what we are learning in the courtroom, straight out to Randolph Rice. Joining us, former felony prosecutor now, criminal defense attorney joining us at Rice Law, Randolph Rice, charging in the alternative. I've done it a million times. If I got a case and the grand jury had not indicted in the alternative, I would either a send it back to the grand jury and represent it myself to get those alternative counts or have the judge charge the jury with the alternative counts. What I mean by that is you shoot Jackie. You plan to shoot Jackie. As malice aforethought is premeditated murder, murder one. So I charge you with murder one, but I'm worried. So then I charge you with voluntary manslaughter, murder two, involuntary manslaughter, if I'm desperate. In other words, there is no way you are walking out of that courtroom if I have anything to do with it without a conviction. They loaded him up. Explain in a nutshell, Rice nutshell.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Well, Nancy, you did a great job of explaining that, because if you don't get that top count, that most serious count, you've got the backups. But the problem here is, and there is a problem, is that I think that they may be reaching on this aggravated murder. Now, they may be using this as leverage to force him or try to get him to take a plea. But the aggravating circumstances at this point, I think, are very, very thin head blowing off.

[Nancy Grace]

Are you. They're reaching. Are you serious? This guy. According to the state, this guy stakes out the place. And I believe they're going to end up with video showing that was not his first trip to the top of that roof. He stakes it out. He plans it in advance. Even a wardrobe change. A lot of forethought goes into this. He targets someone because of their freedom of speech. I don't care if you agree with Kirk or disagree with Kirk. I really couldn't care less. Doesn't matter. He targeted him for his freedom of speech. And that is a major, major aggravating circumstances, akin to shooting a judge or shooting a political figure like the president or the vice president, or shooting a prosecutor or shooting a cop. You go after them because of what they represent that you don't like. And you actually, you know what? You really know how to kick it off wrong, don't you? I bet you're super downer at a party. You come in to crime stories and blurt out the state is reaching. What could be more aggravating?

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Well, Nancy, the problem is that they're trying to rely on the fact that there were children present or that the crime could have hurt somebody else. And again, that seems to be a bit of a stretcher.

[Nancy Grace]

Show him the picture. Show him the crowd. Yeah, there you go. Look. Look at that. He shot from a little under 200 yards away. And you're saying nobody else was in danger. Rice, look at your monitor.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Nobody else is in danger in this situation, at least from. Again, I'm arguing the defense here, and I think that the state has a good argument. But in the defense's argument, they're going to say this was a single bullet that had a single target that ultimately killed Charlie Kirk, and it didn't endanger the other people in the crowd. And that's where there may be a problem for the prosecutor's office in trying to seek the charge that seeks that death penalty.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, so, Randolph, you come in, you plop down in the studio, and you first say, the state is reaching. They can't prove it. Did I not hear you just say the state has a good argument? So which one is it? Does the state have a good argument? I say they do. Or are they overreaching? You know, that's a very sad second verse, same as the first. Is there any defense attorney that doesn't say, in a murder case, you're overreaching?

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Oh, no. Every single case.

[Chris McDonough (Cold Case Foundation Director)]

Every defense.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Defense attorney says that you're overreaching. I do it in all the cases that I defend because that's their job. Their job is to challenge the prosecution to say, did you try to get too much here? And again, this is a. This is a tactic that the prosecution is using to try to get the defendant to take a plea, saying, hey,

[Nancy Grace]

look, did you actually say the P word?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Plea?

[Nancy Grace]

You think there's going to be a plea? You think they're going to pull a coburger with the whole world watching them? You don't think they're going to take this to trial and seek the death penalty whether they get it or not.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

I thought Coburger was going to go to trial, and look what happened there. I think that this is something they're trying to push him into, is to take a plea.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you know what? That's the first thing you've said so far. To me, Randolph Rice, that makes any sense. But actually. Actually, now that I think about it, you're absolutely correct. The number of counts could be a tactic to make the defendant plead guilty, because there seems to be no way out with all these alternative counts. I don't see it happening, though. I don't see a plea going down in this case. But again, you're right. We didn't see one coming in Kohberger either, but put him up one more time, Randolph. Guys, let me remind you, Rice is a former, very successful felony prosecutor. He's won a lot of cases. Now he is a criminal defense attorney, civil attorney. So, Randolph, the aggravating circumstance you mentioned was just that other people were endangered. It's not like you shoot Jackie in the studio and it's just the two of you. This is a shooting with a throng of people, thousands of people. If that bullet had gone the wrong way, if there had been a gust of wind, who knows? But they included another aggravating circumstance, that this murder occurred in the presence of children. Now, that is aggravating a violent felony that occurs in the presence of children. How are you going to get out of that, Randolph? Rice?

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Bring a child in there that actually saw the murder? They're going to have to prove that in court that a child actually saw it, was affected by it. And therefore, that's the aggravating circumstance. And so I don't know if they've got that right now. You know, it just might be tough for them on that count.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you're right. That's an element of proof. They will have to bring in a child witness to prove it. Guys, a lot has happened since these charges were announced formally in court. Now, what that was was an arraignment. An arraignment where the defendant is brought in because you cannot stay behind bars over 72 hours without being told what you're charged with by, typically, a magistrate. I believe this is going to be the trial judge from here out. But we're also learning not just the charges, but how the murder went down. Listen.

[Prosecutor]

At approximately 11:51am the suspect entered campus from the north. He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center, a dark baseball cap, and large sunglasses. Throughout the surveillance, the suspect keeps his head down and rarely raises his head enough to get a clear image of his face. As he proceeds across the campus, he is seen walking with an unusual date. The suspect walks with very little bending in his right leg, consistent with a rifle being hidden in his pants.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us now, Hermania Rodriguez. She's the chief US Reporter, Daily Mail. Hermania, thank you for being with us. So that explains. Hey, let's see that TMZ video we have of him walking, because I can see what the prosecution is talking about, as. Especially if they play this in promo. Hermionia, explain what they're talking about.

[Parent Narrator]

Right.

[Hermania Rodriguez (Daily Mail Reporter)]

So officials gave us more insight about the hours before this shooting last week as we can See on the screen, the suspect was seen arriving on campus about four hours before the shooting. And there he is limping. Now this made the public wonder why this person was limping. Do they have a limp? Yesterday we learned that actually he had hidden the rifle that he used in one of his pant legs and that's why he's limping. The way we see him on screen,

[Nancy Grace]

you know, he's kind of bold. What about it? Chris McDonough joining us, Director, Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube, who has gone to this scene, to the home, to the shooting scene, through the neighborhood of, you know, that's pretty bold. Has he not heard of ring doorbell cams? Because they catch him going door to door to door to door. They've got almost an uninterrupted path of him walking through the neighborhood. And don't tell me, McDonough, he didn't case this out like, where am I going to park? How am I going to get away? This has been at least, at least days in the making.

[Chris McDonough (Cold Case Foundation Director)]

Absolutely, Nancy. And what I've learned is he did have that vehicle up there and it was parked about a mile from the crime scene and he walked in to the crime scene to case it out initially before the situation went down. And then later I've also learned that he turned his phone off for a short period of time and then turned it back on after the homicide.

[Nancy Grace]

Chris McDonough, speaking of walking through the neighborhood to his vehicle, where did he park his muscle car?

[Chris McDonough (Cold Case Foundation Director)]

The muscle car, Nancy, was parked across the approximately a mile away at a church parking lot. An LDS church parking lot.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new podcast series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, Really? Did he pull a coburger slash morphew where they both think they've outsmarted everybody by turning their phone off there. It's like my teen children, they're 17, believe it or not, the phone is constantly on, even right down to.01%. Okay. They will not turn it off even when they charge it. See, that is a pattern or practice. So when you just coincidentally turn your phone off at the time of the incident, I mean, think about it. Joe Scott if it weren't for the murder, the MO modus operandi method of operation would be laughable because you see the pings leading up to a certain spot and then poof, the phone goes off. The murder occurs, then poof, the phone goes Back on and you see the return back to your home nest. Right? It's just.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. And welcome to the real world here. Because these phones are the modern crime scene. Because it seems like every case that we cover, you know, I think most famously to this point, Kohberger's case, you go to these patterns of behavior. This was spoken a lot, spoken about quite a bit in that particular case. We have established patterns. Why are you going to turn it off at this particular time? And look, the case is not proven simply based on that, but it's another element that can be integrated into this from a behavioral standpoint.

[Nancy Grace]

This video from our friends over at the Independent. Speaking of the rifle.

[Prosecutor]

Listen, rifle, ammunition, rounds and towel were sent for forensic processing. DNA consistent with rob with defendant was found on the trigger. Other parts of the rifle, the fired cartridge casing, two of the three unfired cartridges, and the towel. Law enforcement was unable to immediately locate the shooter, so they published photos of the shooter from the UVU surveillance cameras and asked for the public's help to identify it. Meanwhile, law enforcement continue to try to identify the shooter through other means.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock and she's at Dr.bethany marshall.com. before you launch into to the whole furry connection, I want to hear your thoughts on a guy that comes from a loving home. Very loving, we've heard. Wow. He was afraid to tell his parents he was dating another guy that was transitioning. The family knew and I'm going to tell you about that in just a moment. So he comes from a very loving home. He was smart. Dr. Bethany Marshall got a scholarship. The top 1% of, I believe it was his ACT exam. Almost $40,000 of scholarship goes to college, doesn't like it, leaves college, comes out, pursues. Oh, listen to this.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

$32,000. This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, they're supportive, they love. My bottom line here is what went wrong. And I'm not talking about his relationship with a guy. That's irrelevant. Doesn't matter. Some people say right, some people say wrong, don't care. But what I'm talking about, Bethany, is how do you go from a loving home where the parents like you're the apple of their eye to becoming a psycho shooter?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

Because, Nancy, he seems. Seems to me to be. To be what we call narcissistically vulnerable. Meaning he gets the $32,000 scholarship but then he drops out of college and studies to become an electrician. And what that tells me, if he were my patient, is that he cannot tolerate being with his peers. He doesn't feel intact or good enough about himself. He doesn't have a strong ego. So the risk factor for shooters is that they often feel insulted by society. They feel that they are in a one down position, that everybody's bullying them, everybody's acting like they're better than them, and they hold on to every little grudge until they have some kind of a profound loss in their life. And in this case, it may have been dropping out of college and they become even angrier. And when they decide to shoot, they don't just walk through the crowd, Nancy. They're always on the top of a building. Have you noticed that about school shooters? I mean, one we covered many years ago was a guy who stood at the top of a staircase after having locked all the doors so the students couldn't get out. We call it like the fish in a barrel kind of M.O. of the shooting. So that's the reversing of the feeling of being powerless. Now he's in a powerful position. He's like the big man on campus, literally whizzing bullets over children and families heads, talking about getting an erection, which is inscribed on the bullet, and feeling powerful for the first time in his life. So he's trying, trying to reverse a feeling of being powerless, helpless and at the bottom of society.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

To receive the resident Presidential scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000. This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters.

[Prosecutor]

He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center, a dark baseball cap and large sunglasses.

[Sydney Sumner (Crime Stories Reporter)]

He arrived on campus in different clothing, changed into what we see in those surveillance images, then changed back into the other outfit.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

He shoots and then he's off the building. Then we see him limping as he's walking through.

[Nancy Grace]

He had a conscious, objective, formal charges read in open court. But I'm more interested those charges in my mind were predictable. Although the state did get creative in the aggravating circumstances that they charged. It's not just murder, it's aggravated murder murder with, quote, aggravating circumstances. And the significance of that. In order to seek the death penalty, you have to include aggravating circumstances. Just murdering somebody is not enough. Now there has to be aggravating circumstances. And to Randolph Rice joining us, veteran trial lawyer. They vary, but in every jurisdiction across our country, you have to have aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty. In Kohberger, it was mass murder. More than one body is mass murder. Here explain the significance of them putting in the indictment, in the charges, the aggravating circumstances. They have to be proved just like every element of the crime.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Nancy, you're exactly right. You've got to prove every single element because what happens is, is the jurors are going to get a jury instruction at some point in time and it's going to have all these different elements and it's going to say unless you find beyond a reasonable doubt that every single element has been met, then you can't find him guilty of that charge. And so there is the issue with does the state meet these aggravating circumstances? That gets them to the conviction, that gets them to the death penalty.

[Nancy Grace]

So for instance, in every prosecution, and we'll just go with murder, since that's what we're talking about tonight, you have to prove who is the victim, that the indictment has the victim. Correct. You have to prove the jurisdiction. You have to prove malice aforethought, even if it's malice that lasts for a moment, the twinkling of an instant, the blink of an eye qualifies as time to prove intent. But. But when you seek the death penalty, you have to include these aggravating circumstances and then they become an element of proof. You have to prove them, each element beyond a reasonable doubt. Like you said earlier correctly, they may have to bring in a child to prove a child was in harm's way. So we'll see how the state's going to prove it.

[Law Enforcement Official]

Foreign.

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[Nancy Grace]

I I can't stop scratching my downtown. Yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace (Legal Commentary)]

In the judge's reasoning, he said he did not agree with Robinson's lawyers who claimed the whole office had a conflict of interest because one of the prosecutor's daughters was about 85ft from Kirk when he was shot down at Utah Valley University. I'm quoting the judge who says the court finds the prosecutor's daughter's presence at the rally did not factor into the prosecutorial analysis that that decision was, quote, grounded in the assessment of the facts and applicable law. He went on, and it's good that the judge made this extensive record in his findings for the appellate court because if and when there is a conviction, this is going to be appealed, this very decision, this pretrial decision. So I'm so glad the judge gave his reasoning. He said, quote, the defense has not shown there's a significant risk the prosecutor's relationship with his daughter has or will impact defendants due right processes. He stated, the defendant has not shown his prosecution by the Utah County Prosecutor's Office is tainted by a concurrent conflict of interest. Okay, here are the facts.

[Prosecutor]

On September 11, 2025, the day after the shooting, Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like herself. Robinson's mother called her son and asked him where he was. He said he was at home sick and that he had also been at home homesick on September 10th.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold on just a moment. Hermania Rodriguez joining us, Daily Mail. He said he was homesick. What did he add? The dog ate my homework. Homesick. That's weak.

[Hermania Rodriguez (Daily Mail Reporter)]

These were details that, I mean, were really harrowing. If you imagine what these parents went through. As we just saw, officials apparently the day after the shooting, this mother looks at the images released by the FBI as they were hunting this person down. She thinks it looks like her son calls him. He says he's at home sick for the second day in a row.

[Dan Murphy (Former NYPD Detective Sergeant)]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what? Jose got Morgan. What about it? If I saw my son or daughter in a baseball hat and a pair of sunglasses, I would still know it's them.

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

Of course you would.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah, all of us would. There's no way that you're not going to recognize your child. I think the, the big thing here, you know, probably for this mother, and this is more of a Dr. Bethany issue, but what do you do with that information? You know, how does it. Because you've been with him his entire life. So, you know, again, she's going to call him up. She wants to confirm it. You know, do I believe my lying eyes? And it turns out that her eyes were not lying in this case.

[Nancy Grace]

Nancy, you know What? You're right. Dr. Bethany Marshall, how will this affect the parents going forward knowing they turned their son in?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

You know, Joe, Scott, Morgan and I were talking on the break and that sound where he has $32,000 scholarship. Do you notice that his affect is very flat? He doesn't seem excited.

[Nancy Grace]

Yes, I did.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

So it's the mother that goes woo and then he kind of mimics the woo in a less sharp tone or less elevated tone. So I'm going to guess that this mother has a long history of trying to pump her son up to act normal in society. So when she sees this image of him, I don't think it's as much of a shock as you and I might think I would guess. You know how parents know their children, that they've always known something is wrong and they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. She sees the image, it's confirmed, she calls dad. Reality meets internal fearfulness. And now she's the one who has to turn him in. Maternal guilt, Nancy. She's going to feel maternal guilt not only that she turned him in, but that she gave birth to somebody who could have done this. And she'll blame herself for having raised him in the wrong way. Although we know these kinds of disorders are very biologically based, it is not the parent's fault.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I understood about 50% of what you said. Okay, I think what you said is the mother has likely spent her whole life trying to present to the world and to herself that her son is normal. And I don't mean that he is mentally insane because he clearly knew what he did was wrong. He planned it, he concealed it, then he covered it up afterwards as evidence of guilty conscience. He knew it was wrong. But mom, compensating sentence. Look, he won a scholarship. He's so smart. Look, this he, you know, is a boy scout. Look, he sings in the choir. He's awesome. He cuts the grass. I love him, he's wonderful. All the while knowing something is off. That's a lifetime of compensating, Dr. Bethany.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

Yes, this mother has her own lifetime sentence. And obviously I haven't met this guy. I don't know if he's a sociopath, but let's say theoretically, if he was, the mother would likely have noticed many things.

[Nancy Grace]

Look, Bethany, look at your screen. Look at your screen. I grew up on a red dirt road, as everybody knows, and I always wonder. I look at people with like a six bedroom home worth over half a million dollars. They're all going to college, they have great jobs. What's not to be happy about? I don't get it, Dr. Bethany. Maybe I've set the standard too low. But you know, I got a family, I've got a home, I've got a job. For right now, we're all healthy. I'm on top of the world. I don't get it, Bethany.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

But we know that this guy was supremely unhappy. He was so unhappy he couldn't even follow through with a scholarship. So unhappy that he can't even smile when he gets the scholarship. Nancy, this has nothing to do with his upbringing or his family. I can say that fairly confidently even without knowing them. This type of disorder is what we call psychobiological, meaning to break it down, there's something wrong with his brain. If you did a brain scan, you would probably see that there's a quieting in the part of the brain that's responsible for empathy. You might even see like a CO Burger syndrome of bullying other people and wanting to be in a one up position.

[Nancy Grace]

No, no, no, no. I'm not going to let you go down the Aaron Hernandez route where they claim, the defense claimed he killed so murdered so many people because there was something wrong with his brain when he functioned completely normally and excelled, was a multimillionaire. Blew it. No, no, no.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

But as he does, that is not

[Nancy Grace]

going to be a defense.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

This guy was not functional, functioning normally. He was on top of that building, sweating, depositing all this DNA. In the text we read that he wants to take the secret with him till old age. So he actually thinks he's going to get away with this? That is something seriously wrong with him.

[Nancy Grace]

Randolph Rice, please get her back in the middle of the road and out of the weeds. All criminals think they're the smartest one in the room and they're not going to get caught. They all think that.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Sure.

[Nancy Grace]

That's not special.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah. That's why the it's been proven the death penalty doesn't work, because it's not a deterrent for people to not commit crimes because they don't think about, oh, I'm ever going to get caught. So therefore I don't have to worry about getting shot at a firing squad.

[Judge]

Mr. Robinson, I also wish to inform you of your rights against self incrimination. Anything that you say in court today could be used against you. And we want to protect your constitutional rights. Mr. Robinson, at this time, you will remain in custody without bail.

[Prosecutor]

Robinson's mother expressed concern to her husband that the suspect shooter looked like Robinson. Robinson's father agreed. Robinson's mother explained that over the last year or so, Robinson had become more political and had started to lean more to the left.

[Nancy Grace]

As if somehow being left wing means that you're gonna gun somebody down at long range. I think the significance of the mom saying the alleged Shooter had become more political and left leaning. Was. It was a departure from the family values and what he had been his whole life up until that point. Now, we heard last night that a relative of the roommate blames the roommate for radicalizing the defendant. But the reality is is it doesn't matter who persuaded him. It doesn't matter he did this shooting of his own volition. Many people have wondered, did his parents know of his relationship relationship with his male roommate? Yes, they did. Listen.

[Prosecutor]

She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who was transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and his father who have very different political views. In one conversation we before the shooting, Robinson mentioned that Charlie Kirk would be holding an event at UVU which Robert Robinson said was a stupid venue for the event. Robinson accused Kirk of spreading hate.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm not quite sure how a murder of a loving father of two, a husband has turned into an argument about furries. And trans. Sydney Sumner joining me, crime stories, investigative reporter. None of that matters. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he's straight, if he was gay, if he was bi, if he was trans. None of that bears on the elements of proving a murder case. How did that take center stage, Sid?

[Sydney Sumner (Crime Stories Reporter)]

Well, some interesting bullet engravings and we're learning more about those. So at first we maybe thought that this was a reference that Robinson was a furry, was part of one of these counterculture groups. But it seems like now, based on his text to his boyfriend, that Robinson was just making a giant joke. So his references to the furry group Notices bulge uwu.

[Nancy Grace]

Uwu.

[Sydney Sumner (Crime Stories Reporter)]

It was just a joke and it didn't mean anything. So that's why this took such a big Part of this was we thought that he was making some kind of statement with these bullet inscriptions.

[Nancy Grace]

Are you saying the inscriptions on the bullet were just a joke?

[Sydney Sumner (Crime Stories Reporter)]

Sydney Summer, according to Robinson, that's what he told his roommate.

[Nancy Grace]

Sydney, the engravings that you are suggesting are just a joke were on the bullet. Bullets used to murder an innocent person. So I don't know who's claiming you know, that's a joke.

[Tyler Robinson (Alleged Shooter, quoted texts)]

Listen, remember how I was engraving bullets? The messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge UWU on Fox News, I might have a stroke. All right, I'm gonna have to to leave it. That really sucks. Judging from today, I'd say grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know. I think that was a two thousand dollar scope. Delete this exchange.

[Nancy Grace]

So this Is an exchange that the alleged shooter, the Kirk shooter, is having with the romantic partner as the roommate is being described. Okay, remember how I was engraving the bullets? Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Number one, what psycho engraves the bullets? I guess this guy and Luigi Mangioni. But that says to me, Randolph Rice, the roommate, was there when Robinson was engraving the bullets. Hello, accomplice, co defendant.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

The problem, Nancy? They need that roommate in their case because that roommate is so important to connecting the Kirk killer, the Kirk shooter, to those text messages. They need to keep that roommate, that love interest, happy. They need to keep them close because that's going to be probably one of their first witnesses. So I hear what you're saying, Randolph.

[Nancy Grace]

The two are not mutually exclusive. You can get his testimony and charge him as an accomplice to murder at the same time, in fact. Mmm. Let me guess. Does your wife do all the cooking in the home? Have you ever heard of meat tenderizer? I would let the roommate have a few months behind bars to see if that jogs his recollection. So he can be a co defendant and a witness at the same time. What about that thought?

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

He can. But remember, you've got to put this in front of a jury. And how does the jury see that? Because if under your scenario, if you put him in jail and all of a sudden the defense attorney says, hey, you've been sitting in jail, the prosecutor put you there, so you feel like you're forced to tell this story that doesn't look good in front of the jury.

[Nancy Grace]

No, no, no. You can argue that till you're blue in the face. Randolph Rice, the fact that he would be arrested as a co defendant. And again, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Guilty in a court of law. That said, of course, co defendant goes to jail. That's not unique. That said, what do you make of that text? My original question before you went off with your pity party about the roommate going to jail, that shows me that he was there, the roommate was there, and would recall the defendant engraving bullets. And don't you imagine we go, hi, Tyler Robinson, why are you engraving bullets? I would. So are you telling me now he had no idea what was happening?

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

No, I think you're right. He did have a knowledge of what was going on. And I think that there's a potential that the roommate gets charged. And you're exactly right on that. I'm looking at it from an optical perspective, but if you wanted to charge the roommate, I think you certainly have that ability to charge them with knowing what was going on beforehand. The problem becomes can you charge him? What happened after? And then the text messages. That becomes another sort of sticky, sticky situation.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm just trying to figure out what you have to do, Chris McDonough, to actually engrave a bullet. It sounds like trying to thread three needles at once. How do you engrave a bullet?

[Chris McDonough (Cold Case Foundation Director)]

Well, there's a couple of ways of doing it, Nancy. You can use, you know, a handheld engraver. But let's also take a hard look at the messaging here.

[Nancy Grace]

Like you just happen to have a handheld engraver engraver in your tool pocket. Who would have a hand held engraver? You know what? Step back and punt. You have anything else for me?

[Chris McDonough (Cold Case Foundation Director)]

Yeah, you can, you can buy that really simple at Home Depot. But also recognize that he says mostly the effing messages were mostly a big mean I. E. There's another messaging in the showcasing or the, the cartridges that were recovered, they only recovered. Well, they didn't find any shell casing on the, on the roof. So that means it was either left in the bolt of the, of the weapon and then the three in the magazine.

[Nancy Grace]

If you don't happen to be one of those people that have a home hand engraver, then how would you do it with a knife? How do you do that? And it's got to be legible because these were easily read.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah, it does have to be legible. And the fact from this struck me from the beginning, you know, because we've had a couple. If you remember the Minneapolis shooting at Mass a few weeks ago, that individual wrote these kind of cryptic messages on the magazines themselves. But that was with a marker, like an ink marker in this case. You have to get something that is. You know, I think I mentioned maybe yesterday in the morgue. We use what are referred to as diamond engravers to mark the bases of bullets. And this works on a metallic surface as well. You have electrical engravers? I don't know if he went that far. And the problem is, I was about

[Nancy Grace]

to mock you about the diamond engraver. But wait a minute. Didn't he work as an electrician or as an electrician's welder?

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah.

[Nancy Grace]

May have that tool.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

He very well might. Or he could have some semblance of that. That would be. What you have to have is a metallic body that will mark on brass. Because this is brass. It's one of the softest metals that's out there. And people do engrave. You know, soldiers have been doing it for years and years. I wonder where you got this idea from. But you know what? I'm more interested in Nancy, not just the engraving. I'm fascinated by the fact that. That this guy, according to the presser, not only left engravings to mark these rounds, but he also left his DNA on specific components within the weapon, even the trigger. Nancy, this guy's leaving signatures everywhere.

[Nancy Grace]

When you say within the weapon, you're right. Where did authorities find DNA? And they found a lot of it.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah, I'm thinking. Well, first off, the. They mentioned specifically the trigger housing, and I say housing actually on the surface of the trigger. So that's probably going to be touch DNA where you're pulling the trigger. However, this weapon has what's referred to as an internal magazine. It's not like the classic magazine kind of drops out and you have to

[Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert)]

feed it back in.

[Randolph Rice (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

You literally, Nancy, have to take your thumb and press these rounds into that indwelling magazine. So any of those surfaces around there where you're trying to leverage this thing, even on the surface of the bolt, the handle of the bolt, any of these areas, you can deposit DNA. And let's face it, he had this thing wrapped in a towel. He's got this thing in kind of a pristine condition he's left it in. So it, you know, they had a field day when they got their hands on this thing.

[Prosecutor]

In the lab, police interviewed Robinson's roommate, a biological who had.

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[Prosecutor]

Was involved in a romantic relationship with Robinson. The roommate told police that the roommate received messages from Robinson about the shooting and. And he did provide those messages to police.

[Tyler Robinson (Alleged Shooter, quoted texts)]

I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. I don't even know if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I worry about prints. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't have the ability or time to bring it with. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find prints. How the will I explain losing it to my old man?

[Nancy Grace]

I think he needs to get his priorities straight. He's worried about his dad being mad he lost the grandpa's gun. What about the death penalty? That. What is he thinking? Dr. Bethany Marshall, he's. And did you notice this is a recreate of all of the texts the alleged shooter sends to the roommate if you notice, roommate's not answering. He's like, what? But the guy's worried about losing grandpa's gun.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst)]

Nancy, I'd love to talk about the idea that he thinks that what's on the bullets are. Are a meme. A meme is a joke. So he's already minimizing the severity of the alleged crime. A meme is something that goes viral and everybody sees it. So there's this fantasy of being famous, like being some kind of a hero. The reference to the bulge. I take all of this seriously. None of it is a joke. The bulge is getting an erection while you are shooting somebody. If he were my patient, I would ask him, what is sexually exciting about shooting somebody and whizzing the bullet over a crowd of family and children? Is it that sadism is exciting? Having power over people is exciting. I'd want to get try to get to the root of that to understand this guy's mind.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what? There's so much happening in this case. Remember the old guy at the get go that claims he was responsible for the shooting? I did it. I did it. Raising both hands now, saying that he was just trying to give the real shooter a chance to get away. Okay, listen to what the alleged sheeter says about that.

[News Reporter]

I thought they could caught the person.

[Tyler Robinson (Alleged Shooter, quoted texts)]

No, they grabbed some crazy old dude that interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Why?

[Tyler Robinson (Alleged Shooter, quoted texts)]

Why did I do it? Yeah, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it.

[News Reporter]

How long have you been planning this?

[Tyler Robinson (Alleged Shooter, quoted texts)]

A bit over a week, I believe.

[Nancy Grace]

So much for the insanity defense. He had this thing planned out cold. But my point is, George Zinn, the one that threw investigators off at the beginning, claiming he did it, he was arrested. Now everybody's trashing the FBI director for arresting him. He said he did it. Well, there's a sad sack right there. Okay, Bombshell. Hermania Rodriguez. He has. George Zinn has caught a few charges himself, hasn't he? Yeah.

[Hermania Rodriguez (Daily Mail Reporter)]

This has been another incredible part of this story. As you said, right after the shooting, this man was filmed saying, I shot him. I shot him. Now, apparently he has told police that he wanted to give the Actual shooter. Time to get away. We have learned that he is someone who has previously caused trouble in the area and he's now charged with child pornography.

[Nancy Grace]

That just trailed off your tongue. Did you just say child pornography?

[Hermania Rodriguez (Daily Mail Reporter)]

Correct. After he was taken into custody right after this shooting. Days later, he has been charged with this crime.

[Judge]

So, Mr. Robinson, you have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, the court can appoint an attorney to represent you. I have reviewed your declaration of financial status and find that you are indigent. I'm provisionally, provisionally appointing a rule A qualified attorney to represent you on your case. Mr. Robinson. Along with their filing of their appearance of counsel, the assigned attorneys must file declarations with the court that outline their qualifications under Rule 8 and Rule 8C. I'm sorry. Under Rule 8B and Rule 8C for counsel appointment in a case where death, death may be a sentencing option.

[Nancy Grace (Legal Commentary)]

The bid, the attempt, the demand to have the top prosecutor thrown off the Charlie Kirk assassin. Alleged assassin's case is just one of the many trial strategies employees we will see as this case unfolds.

[Court Reporter]

The latest in this case. Cameras will be allowed in the courtroom saying coverage requests from news stations will be evaluated on a case by case basis. Robinson's attorneys argued potential jurors could be biased by slanted news reports and online comments. They say live broadcasts were fueling stories and interfering with Robinson's right to a fair trial. State District Judge Tony Graff refused to ban cameras, saying, quote, electronic media coverage provides a means to facilitate the public's right of activity, access to court proceedings for those who cannot physically occupy the limited space available in a courtroom. Cameras are located to the rear of the courtroom behind Robinson, making it harder to get images of him protecting his rights.

[Nancy Grace (Legal Commentary)]

We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Gray signing off.

[Nancy Grace]

Goodbye, friends.

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