← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
CHARLIE KIRK KILLER DEATH PENALTY, FAMILY FEUD OVER MALE "LOVER"
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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I Heart podcast.
- [00:05]
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- [01:05]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
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- [01:12]
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- [01:15]
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- [01:35]
Nancy Grace
Now streaming on Paramount+ hunted by hackers, stalked by assassins, and wanted by international police, Tony and Ziva are on the run and getting some action. Car chases, surprise weddings, killer drones, undercover ops, robot dogs, daring heists, prison breaks. Nothing will keep this couple from taking down an international conspiracy and clearing their names. Good thing espionage is their love language. Get ready for the ultimate romantic escape with the premiere of NCIS Tony and Ziva. Now streaming on Paramount. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Charlie Kirk Killer suspect death penalty. Announced this as a family feud emerges over the suspect's male lover. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
- [02:32]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
Tyler James Robinson. Count one, aggravated murder. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious body injury. I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. The defendant is believed to have targeted Charlie Kirk based on Charlie Kirk's political expression and did so knowing that children were present and would witness the homicide.
- [03:00]
Nancy Grace
Death penalty. Is the death penalty is the death penalty. They loaded him up. That's right. With so many alternative counts, it will be hard for a jury to find him not guilty.
- [03:15]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
Listen, I am filing a criminal information charging Tyler James Robinson, age 22, with the following crimes. Count one has remained in murder, a capital of offense for intentionally or knowingly causing the death of Charlie Kirk under circumstances that created a great risk of death to others. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious body injury, a first degree felony legal term.
- [03:51]
Nancy Grace
They ain't playing. Joining me in all star panel to make sense of what we are learning in the courtroom, straight out to Randolph Rice joining us, former felony prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney joining us at Rice Law, Randolph Rice, charging in the alternative. I've done it a million times. If I got a case and the grand jury had not indicted in the alternative, I would either a send it back to the grand jury and represent it myself to get those alternative counts or have the judge charge the jury with the alternative counts. What I mean by that is you shoot Jackie, you plan to shoot Jackie as malice aforethought is premeditated murder, murder one. So I charge you with murder one, but I'm worried. So then I charge you with voluntary manslaughter, murder two, involuntary manslaughter if I'm desperate. In other words, there is no way you are walking out of that courtroom if I have anything to do with it without a conviction. They loaded him up. Explain in a nutshell, Rice, nutshell.
- [05:04]
Randolph Rice
Well, Nancy, you did a great job of explaining that because if you don't get that top count, that most serious count, you've got the backups. But the problem here is, and there is a problem, is that I think that they may be reaching on this aggravated murder. Now, they may be using this as leverage to force him or try to get him to take a plea. But the aggravating circumstances at this point, I think are very, very thin head blowing off.
- [05:30]
Nancy Grace
Are you. They're reaching. Are you serious? This guy, according to the state, this guy stakes out the place. And I believe they're going to end up with video showing that was not his first trip to the top of that roof. He stakes it out. He plans it in advance. Even a wardrobe change, a lot of flash, a forethought goes into this. He targets someone because of their freedom of speech. I don't care if you agree with Kirk or disagree with Kirk. I really couldn't care less. Doesn't matter. He targeted him for his freedom of speech. And that is a major, major aggravating circumstances, akin to shooting a judge or shooting a political figure like the president or the vice president or shooting a prosecut or shooting a cop. You go after them because of what they represent that you don't like. And you actually, you know what? You really know how to kick it off. Wrong. Don't you? I bet you're super downer at a party. You come in to crime stories and blurt out, the state is reaching. What could be more aggravating?
- [06:44]
Randolph Rice
Well, Nancy, the problem is that they're trying to rely on the fact that there were children present or that the crime could have hurt somebody else. And again, that seems to be a bit of a shirt.
- [06:55]
Nancy Grace
Show him the picture. Show him the crowd. There. There you go. Look. Look at that. He shot from a little under 200 yards away. And you're saying nobody else was in danger. Rice. What? Look at your monitor.
- [07:09]
Randolph Rice
Nobody else is in danger in this situation, at least from. Again, I'm arguing the defense here, and I think that the state has a good argument. But in the defense's argument, they're going to say, this was a single bullet that had a single target that ultimately killed Charlie Kirk and it didn't endanger the other people in the crowd. And that's where there may be a problem for the prosecutor's office in trying to seek the charge that seeks the death penalty.
- [07:32]
Nancy Grace
Okay, so, Randolph, you come in, you plop down in the studio, and you first say, the state is reaching. They can't prove it. Did I not hear you just say the state has a good argument? So which one is it? Does the state have a good argument? I say they do. Or are they overreaching? You know, that's a very sad second verse, same as the first. Is there any defense attorney that doesn't say, in a murder case, you're overreaching?
- [07:58]
Randolph Rice
Oh, no. Every single case, every defense attorney says that you're overreaching. I do it in all the cases that I defend because that's their job. Their job is to challenge the prosecution to say, did you try to get too much here? And again, this is a tactic that the prosecution is using to try to get the defendant to take a plea.
- [08:16]
Nancy Grace
Saying, hey, look, did you actually say the P word? Plea? You think there's gonna be a plea? You think they're gonna pull a coburger with the whole world watching them? You don't think they're gonna take this to trial and seek the death penalty whether they get it or not?
- [08:30]
Randolph Rice
I thought Kohberger was gonna go to trial, and look what happened there. I think that this is something they're trying to push him into, is to take a plate.
- [08:36]
Nancy Grace
Okay, you know what? That's the first thing you've said so far to me, Randolph Rice, that makes any sense. But actually. Actually, now that I think about it, you're Absolutely correct. The number of counts could be a tactic to make the defendant plead guilty because there seems to be no way out with all these alternative counts. I don't see it happening, though. I don't see a plea going down in this case. But again, you're right. We didn't see one coming in. Kohberger either, but put him up one more time, Randolph. Guys, let me remind you, Rice is a former, very successful felony prosecutor. He's won a lot of cases. Now he is a criminal defense attorney, civil attorney. So, Randolph, the aggravating circumstance you mentioned was just that other people were in danger. It's not like you shoot Jackie in the studio and it's just the two of you. This is a shooting with a throng of people, thousands of people. If that bullet had gone the wrong way, if there had been a gust of wind, who knows? But they included another aggravating circumstance, that this murder occurred in the presence of children. Now, that is aggravating a violent felony that occurs in the presence of children. How are you going to get out of that, Randolph?
- [09:54]
Randolph Rice
Rice, bring a child in there that actually saw the murder? They're going to have to prove that in court that a child actually saw it, was affected by it. And therefore, that's the aggravating circumstance. And so I don't know if they've got that right now. You know, it just might be tough for them on that count.
- [10:09]
Nancy Grace
Okay, you're right. That's an element of proof. They will have to bring in a child witness to prove it. Guys, a lot has happened since these charges were announced formally in court. Now, what that was was an arraignment. An arraignment where the defendant is brought in because you cannot stay behind bars over 72 hours without being told what you're charged with by, typically, a magistrate. I believe this is going to be the trial judge from here out. But we're also learning not just the charges, but. But how the murder went down. Listen.
- [10:44]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
At approximately 11:51am the suspect entered campus from the north. He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center, a dark baseball cap, and large sunglasses. Throughout the surveillance, the suspect keeps his head down and rarely raises his head enough to get a clear image of his face. As he proceeds across the campus, he is seen walking with an unusual gait. The suspect walks with very little bending in his right leg, consistent with a rifle being hidden in his pants.
- [11:22]
Nancy Grace
Joining us now, Hermania Rodriguez. She's the chief US Reporter, Daily Mail. Hermania, thank you for Being with us. So that explains, hey, let's see that TMZ video we have of him walking. Because I can see what the prosecution is talking about, especially if they play this in promo. Hermionia, explain what they're talking about.
- [11:44]
Hermania Rodriguez
Right. So officials gave us more insight about the hours before this shooting last week. As we can see on the screen, the suspect was seen arriving on campus about four hours before the shooting. And there he is limping. Now, this made the public wonder why this person was limping. Do they have a limp? Yesterday we learned that actually he had hidden the rifle that he used in one of his pant legs and that's why he's limping. The way we see him on screen.
- [12:14]
Nancy Grace
You know, he's kind of bold. What about it? Chris McDonough joining us, Director, Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube, who has gone to this scene, to the home, to the shooting scene, through the neighborhood. You know, that's pretty bold. Is he, has he not heard of ring doorbell cams? Because they catch him going door to door to door to door, they've got almost an uninterrupted path of him walking through the neighborhood. And don't tell me, McDonough, he didn't case this out like, where am I going to park? How am I going to get away? This has been at least, at least days in the making.
- [12:53]
Chris McDonough
Absolutely, Nancy. And what I've learned is he did have that vehicle up there and it was parked about a mile from the crime scene. And he walked in to the crime scene to case it out initially before the situation went down. And then later, I've also learned that he turned his phone off for a short period of time and then turned it back on after the homicide.
- [13:20]
Nancy Grace
Chris McDonough, speaking of walking through the neighborhood to his vehicle, where did he park his muscle car?
- [13:26]
Chris McDonough
The muscle car, Nancy, was parked approximately a mile away at a church parking lot, an LDS church parking lot.
- [13:34]
Nancy Grace
Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit new podcast series, Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, Really? Did he pull a coburger slash morphew where they both think they've outsmarted everybody by turning their phone off there. It's like my teen children, they're 17, believe it or not, the phone is constantly on, even right down to.01%. Okay. They will not turn it off even when they charge it. See, that is a pattern or practice. So when you just coincidentally turn your Phone off at the time of the incident. I mean, think about it, Joe Scott. If it weren't for the murder, the MO, modus operandi method of operation would be laughable because you see the pings leading up to a certain spot, and then poof, the phone goes off. The murder occurs, then poof, the phone goes back on and you see the return back to your home nest. Right? It's just.
- [14:39]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, yeah, you're right. And welcome to the real world here. Because these phones are the modern crime scene. Because it seems like every case that we cover, you know, I think most famously to this point, Kohberger's case, you go to these patterns of behavior. This was spoken about quite a bit in that particular case. We have established patterns. Why are you going to turn it off at this particular time? And look, the case is not proven simply based on that, but it's another element that can be integrated into this from a behavioral standpoint.
- [15:16]
Nancy Grace
This video from our friends over at the Independent. Speaking of the rifle, listen.
- [15:21]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
The rifle, ammunition, rounds and talons were sent for forensic processing. DNA consistent with Robin with defendant was found on the trigger. Other parts of the rifle, the fired cartridge casing, two of the three unfired cartridges, and the towel. Law enforcement was unable to immediately locate the shooter, so they published photos of the shooter from the UVU surveillance cameras and ask for the public's help to identify it. Meanwhile, law enforcement continue to try to identify the shooter through other means.
- [16:00]
Nancy Grace
Joining us, Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock, and she's at Dr.bethany marshall.com. before you launch into the whole furry connection, I want to hear your thoughts on a guy that comes from a loving home. Very loving, we've heard. Wow. He was afraid to tell his parents he was dating another guy that was transitioning. The family knew, and I'm going to tell you about that in just a moment. So he comes from a very loving home. He was smart. Dr. Bethany Marshall got a scholarship. The top 1% of, I believe it was his ACT exam. Almost $40,000 of scholarship, goes to college, doesn't like it, leaves college, comes out, pursues. Oh, listen to this.
- [16:59]
Randolph Rice
$32,000.
- [17:01]
Nancy Grace
This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters. I mean, they're supportive. They love it. My bottom line here is what went wrong? And I'm not talking about his relationship with a guy. That's irrelevant. Doesn't matter. Some people say right, some people say wrong. Don't Care. But what I'm talking about, Bethany, is how do you go from a loving home where the parents like you're the apple of their eye to becoming a psycho shooter?
- [17:34]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Because, Nancy, he seems to me to be, to be what we call narcissistically vulnerable, meaning he gets the $32,000 scholarship, but then he drops out of college and studies to become an electrician. And what that tells me, if he were my patient, is that he cannot tolerate being with his peers. He doesn't feel intact or good enough about himself. He doesn't have a strong ego. So the risk factor for shooters is that they often feel insulted by society. They feel that they are in a one down position, that everybody's bullying them, everybody's acting like they're better than them, and they hold on to every little grudge until they have some kind of a profound loss in their life. And in this case, it may have been dropping out of college. And they become even angrier. And when they decide to shoot, they don't just walk through the crowd, Nancy. They're always on the top of a building. Have you noticed that about school shooters? I mean, one we covered many years ago was a guy who stood at the top of a staircase after having locked all the doors so the students couldn't get out. We call it like the fish in a barrel kind of M.O. of the shooting. So that's the reversing of the feeling of being powerless. Now he's in a powerful position. He's like the big man on campus, literally whizzing bullets over children and families heads, talking about getting an erection, which is inscribed on the bullet, and feeling powerful for the first time in his life. So he's trying to reverse a feeling of being powerless, helpless and at the bottom of society.
- [19:11]
Randolph Rice
To receive the resident presidential scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000. This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters.
- [19:26]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center, a dark baseball cap and large sunglasses.
- [19:33]
Nancy Grace
He arrived on campus in different clothing, changed into what we see in those surveillance images, then changed back into the other outfit.
- [19:42]
Randolph Rice
He shoots and then he's off the building.
- [19:47]
Nancy Grace
Then we see him limping as he's walking through. He had a conscious, objective, formal charges read in open court. But I'm more interested those charges in my mind were predictable. Although the state did get creative in the aggravating circumstances that they charge. It's not just murder, it's aggravated murder. Murder with quote, aggravating circumstances and the significance of that. In order to seek the death penalty, you have to include aggravating circumstances. Just murdering somebody is not enough. Now there has to be aggravating circumstances. And to Randolph Rice joining us, veteran trial lawyer, they vary, but in every jurisdiction across our country, you have to have aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty. In Kohberger, it was mass murder. More than one body is mass murder. Here. Explain the significance of them putting in the indictment in the charges, the aggravating circumstances, they have to be proved just like every element of the crime.
- [20:54]
Randolph Rice
Nancy, you're exactly right. You've got to prove every single element, because what happens is the jurors are going to get a jury instruction at some point in time and it's going to have all these different elements and it's going to say unless you find beyond a reasonable doubt that every single element has been met, then you can't find him guilty of that charge. And so there is the issue with does the state meet these aggravating circumstances? That gets them to the conviction, that gets them to the death penalty.
- [21:22]
Nancy Grace
So, for instance, in every prosecution, and we'll just go with murder, since that's what we're talking about tonight, you have to prove who is the victim, that the indictment has the victim. Correct. You have to prove the jurisdiction. You have to prove malice aforethought, even if it's malice that lasts for a moment, the twinkling of an instant, the blink of an eye, qualifies as time to prove intent. But when you seek the death penalty, you have to include these aggravating circumstances and then they become an element of proof. You have to prove them, each element beyond a reasonable doubt, like you said earlier, correctly, they may have to bring in a child to prove a child was in harm's way. So we'll see how the state's going to prove it. Crime STORIES with Nancy Grace. Another thing we are learning about how the defendant was recognized. Listen.
- [22:34]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
On September 11, 2025, the day after the shooting, Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like her son. Robinson's mother called her son.
- [22:52]
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- [22:54]
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- [23:51]
Nancy Grace
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- [24:05]
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- [24:06]
Nancy Grace
5. My mom uses it. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right?
- [24:10]
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- [24:14]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
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- [24:20]
Nancy Grace
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- [24:22]
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- [25:48]
Nancy Grace
Now streaming on Paramount plus Hunted by hackers, stalked by assassins and wanted by international police, Tony and Ziva are on the run and getting some action. Car chases, surprise weddings, killer drones, undercover ops, robot dogs, daring high school prison breaks. Nothing will keep this couple from taking down an international conspiracy and clearing their names. Good thing espionage is their love language. Get ready for the ultimate romantic escape with the premiere of NCIS Tony and Ziva now streaming on Paramount plus and.
- [26:23]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
Asked him where he was. He said he was at home sick and that he had also been at home homesick on September 10th.
- [26:31]
Nancy Grace
Hold on just a moment. Hermania Rodriguez joining us, Daily Mail. He said he was home sick. What did he add? The dog ate my homework. Homesick, that's a week.
- [26:41]
Hermania Rodriguez
These were details that, I mean, were really harrowing. If you imagine what these parents went through as we just saw officials saying, apparently the day after the shooting, this mother looks at the images released by the FBI as they were hunting this person down. She thinks it looks like her son calls him. He says he's at home sick for the second day in a row.
- [27:03]
Nancy Grace
Yeah, you know what, Joe Scott Morgan, what about it? If I saw my son or daughter in a baseball hat and a pair of sunglasses, I would still know it's them.
- [27:13]
Joe Scott Morgan
Of course you would. Yeah, all of us would. There's no way that you're not going to recognize your child. I think the big thing here, you know, probably for this mother, and this is more of a Dr. Bethany issue, but what do you do with that information? You know, how does it. Because you've been with him his entire life. So, you know, again, she's going to call him up. She wants to confirm it. You know, do I believe my lying eyes? And it turns out that her eyes were not lying in this case.
- [27:41]
Nancy Grace
Nancy, you know What? You're right. Dr. Bethany Marshall, how will this affect the parents going forward knowing they turned their son in?
- [27:52]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
You know, Joe Scott Morgan and I were talking on the break and that sound where he has 32,000 doll scholarship, do you notice that his affect is very flat? He doesn't seem excited.
- [28:04]
Nancy Grace
Yes, I did.
- [28:05]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
So it's the mother that goes woo. And then he kind of mimics the woo in a less sharp tone or less elevated tone. So I'm going to guess that this mother has a long history of trying to pump her son up to act normal in society. So when she sees this image of him, I don't think it's as much of a shock as you and I might think I would guess. You know how parents know their children, that they've always known something is wrong and they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. She sees the image, it's confirmed. She calls dad. Reality meets internal fearfulness. And now she's the one who has to turn him in. Maternal guilt, Nancy. She's going to feel maternal guilt, not only that she turned him in, but that she gave birth to somebody who could have done this. And she'll blame herself for having raised him in the wrong way, although we know these kinds of disorders are very biologically based. It is not the parent's fault.
- [29:06]
Nancy Grace
Okay, I understood about 50% of what you said. Okay, I think what you said is the mother has likely spent her whole life trying to present to the world and to herself that her son is normal. And I don't mean that he is mentally insane because he clearly knew what he did was wrong. He planned it, he concealed it, then he covered it up afterwards as evidence of guilty conscience. He knew it was wrong. But mom, compensating, saying, look, he won a scholarship, he's so smart. Look, this he, you know, it's a boy scout. Look, he sings in the choir, he's awesome, he cuts the grass, I love him, he's wonderful. All the while knowing something is off. That's a lifetime of compensating.
- [29:53]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Dr. Bethany yes, this mother has her own lifetime sentence. And obviously I haven't met this guy. I don't know if he's a sociopath, but let's say theoretically, if he was, the mother would likely have noticed many things.
- [30:07]
Nancy Grace
Look, Bethany, look at your screen. Look at your screen. I grew up on a red dirt road, as everybody knows, and I always wonder. I look at people with like a six bedroom home worth over half a million dollars. They're all going to college, they have great jobs. What's not to be happy about? I don't, I don't get it. Dr. Bethany. Maybe I've set the standard too low. But, you know, I got a family, I've got a home, I've got a job. For right now, we're all healthy. I'm on top of the world. I don't get it. Bethany.
- [30:40]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
But we know that this guy was supremely unhappy. He was so unhappy he couldn't even follow through with a scholarship. So unhappy that he can't even smile when he gets the scholarship. Nancy, this has nothing to do with his upbringing or his family. I can say that fairly confidently even without knowing them. This type of disorder is what we call psychobiological, meaning to break it down, there's something wrong with his brain. If you did a brain scan, you would probably see that there's a quieting in the part of the brain that's responsible for empathy. You might even see like a co Burger syndrome of bullying other people and wanting to be in a one up position.
- [31:23]
Nancy Grace
Okay, no, no, no. I'm not gonna let you go down the Aaron Hernandez route where they claim, the defense claimed he killed so murdered so many people because there was something wrong with his brain when he functioned completely normally and excelled, was a multi millionaire. Blew it. No, no, no, no.
- [31:47]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
But Nancy does not.
- [31:47]
Nancy Grace
That is not going to be a defense.
- [31:49]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
This guy was not functioning normally. He was on top of that building, sweating, depositing all this DNA. In the text we read that he wants to take the secret with him till old age. So he actually thinks he's going to get away with this? That is something seriously wrong with him.
- [32:10]
Nancy Grace
Please get her back in the middle of the road and out of the weeds. All criminals think they're the smartest one in the room and they're not going to get caught. They all think that that's not special.
- [32:21]
Randolph Rice
Yeah, that's why the. It's been proven the death penalty doesn't work, because it's not a deterrent for people to not commit crimes because they don't think about, oh, I'm ever going to get caught. So therefore I don't have to worry about getting shot at a firing squad.
- [32:33]
Chris McDonough
Mr. Robinson, I also wish to inform you of your rights against self incrimination. Anything that you say in court today could be used against you and we want to protect your constitutional rights. Mr. Robinson, at this time you will remain in custody without bail.
- [32:51]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
Robinson's mother expressed concern to her husband that the suspect shooter looked like Robinson. Robinson's father agreed. Robinson's mother explained that over the last year or so, Robinson had become more political and had started to lean more to the left.
- [33:11]
Nancy Grace
As if somehow being left wing means that you're going to gun somebody down at long range. I think the significance of the mom saying the alleged shooter had become more political and left leaning was it was a departure from the family values and what he had been his whole life up until that point. Now, we heard last night that a relative of the roommate blames the roommate for radicalizing the defendant. But the reality is, is it doesn't matter who persuaded him. It doesn't matter. He did this shooting of his own volition. Many people have wondered, did his parents know of his relationship with his male roommate? Yes, they did. Listen.
- [34:06]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who was transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political. In one conversation before the shooting, Robinson mentioned that Charlie Kirk would be holding an event at uvu, which Robinson said was a stupid venue for the event. Robinson accused Kirk of spreading hate.
- [34:43]
Nancy Grace
I'm not quite sure how a murder of a loving father of two, a husband has turned into an argument about furries and trans. Sidney Sumner joining me, crime stories, investigative reporter. None of that matters. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he's straight, if he was gay, if he was bi, if he was trans. None of that bears on the elements of proving a murder case. How did that take center stage, Sid? Well, some interesting bullet engravings, and we're learning more about those. So, at first, we maybe thought that this was a reference that Robinson was a furry, was part of one of these counterculture groups. But it seems like now, based on his text to his boyfriend, that Robinson was just making a giant joke. So his references to the furry group notices bulge uwu. Ooh. It was just a joke and it didn't mean anything. So that's why this took such a big part of this was we thought that he was making some kind of statement with these bullet inscriptions. Are you saying the inscriptions on the bullet were just a joke, Sidney? Summer, According to Robinson, that's what he told his roommate. Sydney. The engravings that you are suggesting are just a joke were on the bullet used to murder an innocent person. So I. I don't know who's claiming you know that's a joke.
- [36:28]
Hello Divorce Ad Voice
Listen, remember how I was engraving bullets? The messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge uwu on Fox News, I might have a stroke. All right, I'm gonna have to leave it. That really sucks. Judging from today, I'd say Grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know. I think that was a $2,000 scope. Delete this exchange.
- [36:56]
Nancy Grace
So this is an exchange that the alleged shooter, the Kirk shooter, is having with the romantic partner as the roommate is being described. Okay, remember how I was engraving the bullet? Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Number one, what psycho engraves the bullets? I guess this guy and Luigi Mangione. But that says to me, Randolph Rice, the roommate, was there when Robinson was engraving the bullets. Hello, accomplice, co defendant.
- [37:31]
Randolph Rice
The problem, Nancy. They need that roommate in their case because that roommate is so important to connecting the Kirk killer, the Kirk shooter, to those text messages. They need to keep that roommate, that love interest, happy. They need to keep them close because that's going to be probably one of their first witnesses. So I hear what you're saying, Randolph.
- [37:55]
Nancy Grace
The two are not mutually exclusive. You can get his testimony and charge him as an accomplice to murder at the same time, in fact. Mmm. Let me guess. Does your wife do all the cooking in the home? Have you ever heard of meat tenderizer? I would let the roommate have A few months behind bars to see if that jogs his recollection. So he could be a co defendant and a witness at the same time. What about that thought he can.
- [38:27]
Randolph Rice
But remember, you've got to put this in front of a jury. And how does the jury see that? Because if under your scenario, if you put him in jail and all of a sudden the defense attorney says, hey, you've been sitting in jail, the prosecutor put you there, so you feel like you're forced to tell this story that doesn't look good in front of the jury.
- [38:45]
Nancy Grace
No, no, no. You can argue that till you're blue in the face. Randolph Rice, the fact that he would be arrested as a co defendant, and again, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That said, of course, the co defendant goes to jail. That's not unique. That said, what do you make of that text? My original question before you went off with your pity party about the roommate going to jail, that shows me that he was there. The roommate was there and would recall the defendant engraving bullets. And don't you imagine he would go, hi, Tyler Robinson, why are you engraving bullets? I would. So are you telling me now he had no idea what was happening?
- [39:35]
Randolph Rice
No, I think you're right. He did have a knowledge of what was going on. And I think that there's a potential that the roommate gets charged. And you're exactly right on that. I'm looking at it from an optical perspective, but if you wanted to charge the roommate, I think you certainly have that ability to charge them with knowing what was going on beforehand. The problem becomes, can you charge them, what happened after? And the text messages, that becomes another sort of sticky, sticky situation.
- [39:58]
Nancy Grace
I'm just trying to figure out what you have to do, Chris McDonough, to actually engrave a bullet. It sounds like trying to thread three needles at once. How do you engrave a bullet?
- [40:10]
Chris McDonough
Well, there's a couple of ways of doing it, Nancy. You can use a handheld engraver. But let's also take a hard look at the messaging here.
- [40:20]
Nancy Grace
You just happen to have a handheld engraver in your tool pocket. Who would have a handheld engraver? You know what? Step back and punt. You have anything else for me?
- [40:32]
Chris McDonough
Yeah, you can, you can buy that really simple at Home Depot. But also recognize that he says mostly the effing messages were mostly a big mean. That is there's another messaging in the showcasing or the, the cartridges that were recovered. The. They only recovered. Well, they didn't find any showcasing on the, on the roof. So that means a It was either left in the bolt of the of the weapon and then the three in the magazine. So the fact that he was engraving a message on those cartridges tells us there's a bigger story.
- [41:21]
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- [42:21]
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- [43:40]
Nancy Grace
Edu.
- [43:42]
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- [43:46]
Nancy Grace
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- [44:20]
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- [44:51]
Nancy Grace
Crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know, Jo Scott Morgan. This is why we discuss cases before we take them in front of a jury. As I'm sitting here, Jackie says she's got a handheld home engraver. You know, the things you learn about people in a dark studio. But since McDonough dodged the question, if you don't happen to be one of those people that have a home hand engraver, then how would you do it? With a knife? How do you do that? And it's got to be legible because these were easily read.
- [45:26]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah, it does have to be legible. And the fact from this struck me from the beginning, you know, because we've had a couple. If you remember the Minneapolis shooting at Mass a few weeks ago, that individual wrote these kind of cryptic messages on the magazines themselves. But that was with a marker, like an ink marker. In this case, you have to get something that is, you know, I think I mentioned maybe yesterday in the morgue. We use what are referred to as diamond engravers to mark the bases of bullets. And this works on a metallic surface as well. You have electrical engravers? I don't know if he went that far. And the problem is we don't know.
- [46:06]
Nancy Grace
Wait, I was about to mock you about the diamond engraver. But wait a minute. Didn't he work as an electrician or as an electric. Electricians.
- [46:15]
Chris McDonough
Welder.
- [46:15]
Nancy Grace
Yeah, he may have that tool.
- [46:18]
Joe Scott Morgan
He very well might. Or he could have some semblance of that. That would be what you have to have is a metallic body that will mark on brass because this is brass. It's one of the softest metals that's out there and people do engrave. You know, soldiers have been doing it for years and years. I wonder where you got this idea from. But you know what I'm more interested in, Nancy, not just the engraving. I'm fascinated by the fact that this guy, according to the presser, not only left engravings to mark these rounds, but he also left his DNA on specific components within the weapon, even the trigger. Nancy, this guy's leaving signatures everywhere.
- [47:00]
Nancy Grace
When you say within the weapon, you're right. Where did authorities find DNA? And they found a lot of it.
- [47:07]
Joe Scott Morgan
Yeah. I'm thinking, well, first off, they mentioned. Mentioned specifically the trigger housing. And I say housing actually on the surface of the trigger. So that's probably going to be touch DNA where you're pulling the trigger. However, this weapon has what's referred to as an internal magazine. It's not like the classic magazine kind of drops out and you have to feed it back in. You literally, Nancy, have to take your thumb and press these rounds into that indwelling magazine. So any of those surfaces around there where you're trying to leverage this thing, even on the surface. Surface of the bolt, the handle of the bolt, any of these areas, you can deposit DNA. And let's face it, he had this thing wrapped in a towel. He's got this thing in kind of a pristine condition. He's left it in. So it. You know, they had a field day when they got their hands on this thing.
- [47:57]
Courtroom Narrator / Prosecutor
In the lab, police interviewed Robinson's roommate, a biological male who was involved in a romantic relationship with Robinson. The roommate told police that the roommate received messages from Robinson about the shooting, and he did provide those messages to police.
- [48:19]
Hello Divorce Ad Voice
I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do do if I didn't bring back grandpa's rifle. I don't even know if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I worry about Prince. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't have the ability or time to bring it with. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find Prince. How the will I explain losing it to my old man?
- [48:56]
Nancy Grace
I think he needs to get his priorities straight. He's worried about his dad being mad he lost the grandpa's gun. What about the death penalty? That. What is he thinking? Dr. Bethany Marshall, he's. And did you notice this is a recreate of all of the texts the alleged shooter sends to the roommate? If you notice, roommate's not answering. He's like, what? But the guy's worried about losing grandpa's gun.
- [49:28]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Nancy, I'd love to talk about the idea that he thinks that what's on the bullets are a meme. A meme is a joke. So he's already minimizing the severity of the alleged crime. A meme is something that goes viral and everybody Sees it. So there's this fantasy of being famous, like being some kind of a hero. The reference to the bulge. I take all of this seriously. None of it is joke. The bulge is getting an erection while you are shooting somebody. If he were my patient, I would ask him, what is sexually exciting about shooting somebody and whizzing the bullet over a crowd of family and children? Is it that sadism is exciting. Having power over people is exciting. I want to try to get to the root of that, to understand this guy's mind.
- [50:22]
Nancy Grace
You know what? But there's so much happening in this case. Remember the old guy at the get go that claims he was responsible for the shooting? I did it. I did it. Raising both hands now saying that he was just trying to give the real shooter a chance to get away. Okay, Listen to what the alleged shooter says about that. I thought they caught the person.
- [50:46]
Hello Divorce Ad Voice
No, they grabbed some crazy old dude that interrogated some. Someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering.
- [51:00]
Grand Canyon University Announcer
Why?
- [51:01]
Hello Divorce Ad Voice
Why did I do it? Yeah, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen. Seen anything about them finding it.
- [51:16]
Nancy Grace
How long have you been planning this?
- [51:17]
Hello Divorce Ad Voice
A bit over a week, I believe.
- [51:20]
Nancy Grace
So much for the insanity defense. He had this thing planned out cold. But my point is, George Zinn, the one that threw investigators off at the beginning, claiming he did it, he was arrested. Now everybody's trashing the FBI director for arresting him. He said he did it. Well, there's a sad sack right there. Okay, okay. Bombshell. Hermania Rodriguez. He has. George Zinn has caught a few charges himself, hasn't he? Yeah.
- [51:47]
Hermania Rodriguez
This has been another incredible part of this story. As you said, right after the shooting, this man was filmed saying, I shot him. I shot him. Now, apparently he has told police that he wanted to give the actual shooter time to get away. We have learned that he is someone who has previously caused trouble in the area, and he's now charged with child pornography.
- [52:08]
Nancy Grace
That just trailed off your tongue. Did you just say child pornography?
- [52:14]
Hermania Rodriguez
Correct. After he was taken into custody right after this shooting, days later, he has been charged with this crime.
- [52:22]
Chris McDonough
So, Mr. Robinson, you have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, the court can appoint an attorney to represent you. I have reviewed your declaration of financial status and find that you are indigent. I'm provisionally, provisionally appointing a Rule A qualified attorney to represent you on your case, Mr. Robinson. Along with their filing of their appearance of counsel, the assigned attorneys must file declarations with the court that outline their qualifications under Rule 8 and Rule 8C. I'm sorry. Under Rule 8B and Rule 8C for counsel appointment in a case where death may be a sentencing option.
- [53:04]
Nancy Grace
As we go to air tonight, the state still building its case against the alleged Charlie Kirk shooter. If you know or think you know anything about the case, regardless of whether you think it is important or not, please dial 8015-7914-0080-1579-1400 or go to tips.FBI.gov now we remember an American hero, Trooper Jerry Adamick, Texas Department of Public Safety, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife, Roxanne and five children. American hero Trooper Jerry Adamick, Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.
- [54:24]
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- [55:23]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
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- [57:21]
Nancy Grace
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