CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING BOMBSHELL: Video of Suspect's Trans Lover Lance Twiggs

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING BOMBSHELL: Video of Suspect’s Trans Lover Lance Twiggs
Date: July 9, 2026

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Nancy Grace and her panel delve into the preliminary hearing in the Charlie Kirk shooting case. The episode centers on video and courtroom testimony from Lance Twiggs—roommate and romantic partner of Tyler Robinson, the prime suspect. The show dissects the evidence presented, including texts, a cryptic handwritten note, eyewitness accounts, crime scene details, and rampant conspiracy theories spiraling around Kirk’s high-profile murder. The episode also captures emotional moments from Kirk’s family during the proceedings, offering a thorough look at facts and misinformation surrounding the case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Evidence from Lance Twiggs: Relationship, Note, and Text Exchanges

• [02:32–04:34]

  • Background: Twiggs describes meeting Tyler Robinson as roommates, their relationship developing into a romantic one, and living together in St. George.
    • "I think we started dating two or three months after he moved in." — Lance Twiggs [02:49]
  • The Note:
    • A handwritten note by Robinson was discovered by Twiggs under a computer keyboard, as directed by Tyler in a text on the night of the murder.
    • Twiggs describes photographing the note and placing it back without telling anyone at the time.
    • "That was the note under his keyboard that he was referring to in the first text of that chain." — Dave Mack [03:47]

• [05:16–06:16]

  • Key exchange from texts and testimony:
    • The note and texts allegedly contained Robinson’s admissions:
      • "I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you." — Tyler Robinson (text, read by Twiggs) [05:57]
      • Admission by Robinson: "I am. I'm sorry." (responding whether he was the shooter) — Tyler Robinson (text, read by Twiggs) [05:57]
      • Plan to retrieve rifle and instructions to delete messages.

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2. Legal and Investigative Impact

• Twiggs Granted Immunity:
  • "Lance Twiggs...he's been given immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony." — Dave Mack [06:18]
• Twiggs’ Court Identification:
  • Shown surveillance images, Twiggs “can’t be 100%” but asserts “that looks like him” (Robinson) based on clothing and appearance.
  • "Looks like the clothes he wears...camera's not great, but, yeah, looks like him." — Dave Mack [06:59]
• Implication:
  • The prosecution’s case is heavily grounded in direct admissions, physical evidence, and witness testimonies.
  • Questions arise about Twiggs’ level of knowledge or involvement, though no evidence points to his advance knowledge of the murder plan.

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3. On-Scene Reporting and Analysis

• [15:16–20:30]

  • Nate Eaton’s Crime Scene Walkthrough:
    • Describes amphitheater's layout, LOSI building's role, and accessible rooftops.
      • "It's very easy to get onto the roof of these buildings. In fact, the roofs are sidewalks." — Nate Eaton [15:56]
    • Explains how the shooter would have had an unimpeded shot at Kirk, and details the wooded area where the weapon was hidden.
      • Both towel and gun with Robinson's DNA were recovered from the wooded area, which is less dense than described in news reports.
        • "That is where they ended up finding the towel, and then they found the gun, both of which they said had the DNA on it." — Nate Eaton [18:50]

• Takeaways for Trial:

  • Surveillance footage, DNA, the terrain’s accessibility, and proximity of spaces will substantiate the prosecution’s narrative.
  • The defense is likely to challenge evidence continuity or introduce alternate explanations.

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4. Emotional Reactions in the Courtroom

• [20:23–24:18]
  • Observing the Families:
    • Erica Kirk (widow) and her mother-in-law seen consoling each other, praying, and deeply involved.
    • Visible displays of grief—e.g., lingering embraces at breaks—highlight the tragedy’s personal toll.
    • Contrast between Kirk and Robinson families, the latter quieter, with Robinson, in shackles, sometimes appearing relaxed, even smiling at the media.
    • "She is very invested in this, even looking directly at the witnesses. It's not like she's distracted at all." — Nate Eaton [20:30]

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5. Proliferation of Conspiracy Theories

• [29:08–55:51]

  • Major Theories Debunked on Air:
    1. Exploding Microphone Theory
       • Viral TikTok videos claim Kirk was killed by an explosive in his lapel mic.
       • "When his shirt balloons out, that's what's referred to as a transfer of kinetic energy...We're talking about a high velocity rifle round." — Joe Scott Morgan [30:54]
    2. Faked Death / Witness Protection
       • Claims that Kirk isn’t dead, citing “insufficient grief” from family members.
         • "If you put that to a jury and you got one wingnut...to buy into it, what do you think?" — Nancy Grace [37:01]
       • The show’s experts stress logistical impossibility and emotional damage to family.
         • "This is just the height of lunacy." — Joe Scott Morgan [35:35]
         • "It's very easy to dehumanize them and forget that they're a factor in this." — Dr. Sherry Schwartz [38:42]
    3. US Government/Epstein Files
       • Speculation the killing was a government distraction due to Kirk's calls for Epstein files’ release.
         • "Why would somebody need to murder Charlie Kirk over these files? ... These two events are completely unrelated." — Dr. Sherry Schwartz [41:40]
    4. Erica Kirk as “Elite Fixer” or Collaborator
       • Online attacks claim Erica’s fundraising, lack of visible grief, and public statements are suspicious.
         • "What's shocking and really deeply troubling to me as a psychologist is how much vitriol this poor woman, Erica Kirk, has been subject to..." — Dr. Sherry Schwartz [44:19]
    5. Alternative Killer/Bullet and ‘Psyop’ Theories:
       • Defense attorneys raise possibility a bullet fragment found could be unrelated to Robinson’s weapon, though ballistics largely confirm caliber.
       • Joe Scott Morgan and Nancy Grace highlight the plausibility gap in these alternative explanations.
    6. Security/Metal Detector Claims:
       • Myths about lack of security being intentional or criminally negligent dispelled by explaining the outdoor, open venue nature.

• Legal Strategy Implications:

  • "If I can get that type of conspiracy theorist nut on the jury, that is a victory for the client...but in the end it could backfire on the defense because it would alienate the jury." — Philip Dube [37:22]
  • Experts agree that while these theories can influence a jury, the evidence for Robinson's guilt is substantial and clear.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On direct evidence and digital footprints:

• "Whatever you put on the Internet, whatever you text, you can delete it all you want. It's not gone." — Nancy Grace paraphrased by Dave Mack [09:54]

On conspiracy theories and logic:

• "This is not David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear. This is a man that was a victim of a firearms related homicide. It is that simple." — Joe Scott Morgan [46:31]

On the pain caused to Kirk’s widow:

• "Really I wish the tiktokers and everybody else would stop to think about if they were in that situation...It's really hurtful and it's very damaging to the victims." — Dr. Sherry Schwartz [38:42]

On the evidence’s weight:

• "His DNA is on a towel. His roommate boyfriend's DNA is on a towel. There's other things. He left a note...They probably do have the right guy." — Dr. Sherry Schwartz [48:21]

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Lance Twiggs’ Testimony & Evidence: [02:32–06:57]
• Twiggs Identifies Robinson in Court: [06:57–07:55]
• Full Text Message Exchange (Robinson’s Admission): [07:57–09:51]
• Crime Scene Recon & DNA Evidence — Nate Eaton: [15:16–20:30]
• Courtroom Emotional Observations: [20:23–24:18]
• Conspiracy Theory Coverage (including Lapel Mic/Fake Death/Gov’t): [29:08–46:01]
• Expert Ballistics Explanation: [53:24–55:51]

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Episode Takeaways

• The prosecution possesses powerful evidence: direct admissions via texts and note, the eyewitness account of Twiggs, physical evidence (DNA), and overwhelmingly accessible crime scene proof.
• Conspiracy theories—often spread on social media—are thoroughly debunked by experts, yet present both a challenge and a sidebar for jury management and public opinion.
• The emotional toll on both families is evident and often overlooked by conspiracy theorists.
• The episode frames the case not just as a courtroom drama but as a cultural moment about public trust, digital misinformation, and the intersection of high-profile crime with viral speculation.

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For more factual details and fact-checks amid a maelstrom of social media myths, this episode stands as a clarion call for evidence-based reasoning and empathy for victims.

Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

Bombshell Tonight we go straight into the Charlie Kirk shooting hearing.

[Dave Mack]

My name is Lance Twigs and do you know Tyler Robinson? Yes, I do. Or yeah, I do. And this is the same Tyler Robinson that's been charged with the shooting of Charlie Kirk? Yes. All right, so you said when you first met you were roommates. Yeah.

[Philip Dube]

Okay.

[Dave Mack]

And then at some point your relationship progressed to something more than just roommates. Is that right? When was that? I think we started Dating two or three months after he moved in. Okay, and where did you live at that time? St. George, in an apartment complex. And is that apartment the same place you lived when on September 10th? Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dave Mack. What's the latest, Nancy?

[Dave Mack]

It was a shocking day in court. Two big things happened. One, Lance Twig sat. He's the roommate of Tyler Robinson. Well, roommate and lover. He sat down with police in April and gave a very involved interview with them. And part of that was shown in court during the preliminary hearing. Heavily redacted though it might have been. There was a lot of very specific information about how they met and became roommates.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's go straight back into the courtroom.

[Dave Mack]

Do you recognize that, that on the screen there? Yeah. Yeah. What do you recognize it as? That was the note under his keyboard that he was referring to in the first text of that chain. So where did you find us? On his desk, underneath his, like, computer keyboard. And I assume you read it? Yeah. And then what did you do with it after you read it? I believe I just put it back down on the desk after I took a picture of it. Okay. And again, the time you read it was probably around 11 o' clock or so on the 10th? Yes, the night of September 10th. And did you ever see that again after you placed it back on his desk? No, I don't think I did.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack.

[Dave Mack]

What about it, Nancy? In the video with Lance Twiggs and police, a question and answer was going back and forth about a note that was found by Lance Twiggs. All right. We found out later, during text message examination by Utah Bureau of Investigation agent Brian Davis on the stand, we found out what that handwritten message was. Tyler Robinson told Lance Twig by text on the night of September 10th, Tyler to go and look for a note under his keyboard for his computer. And that's what the picture is that they're talking about between Lance Twiggs and police during his interview.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's go straight back to the courtroom.

[Lance Twiggs]

So this would have been from. From. Tyler says, drop what you're doing. Look under your keyboard. Then Lance responds, he says, what? And then he says, you're joking, right? And then Tyler says, I tried to delete that. And Tyler says, I'm still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but gotta grab my rifle. Still, to be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you. And then Lance replies, you Weren't the one who did it, right. And Tyler says, I am. I'm sorry. Lance says, I thought they caught the person. And then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude and interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, what more can you tell us?

[Dave Mack]

That note, handwritten by Tyler Robinson and found by Lance Twigs. A couple of things are important there. One, the note said, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk. Handwritten by Tyler Robinson and found by Lance Twiggs on the direction of Tyler Robinson. There was more testimony that we never saw. A lot of it was redacted. There was a lot of blank space on this interview with police. But I do want to remind you, Nancy, Lance Twiggs, he's been given immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony. What else does he know? A lot.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to the courtroom.

[Dave Mack]

Do you recognize the person in these images? I wouldn't say with a hundred percent certainty just because of camera quality, but that looks like him. In terms of the shoes he's wearing, the sunglasses, I don't think I'd specifically seen him wearing that hat. But he was usually wearing a hat and then jeans. So it definitely. Especially the bottom. The last two definitely do look like him. Oh, they do look like Tyler Robinson today, Mac. What about it, Nancy? One of the things that happened in court was the direct identification of Tyler Robinson by Lance Twiggs. Now, Lance Twigs identifies him. Not 100%, but he's saying that looks like him. Looks like the clothes he wears, you know, but camera angle's not great. Camera's not great, but, yeah, looks like him. Can't be 100%, but looks like him.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's go straight back into the courtroom.

[Lance Twiggs]

And Tyler says, I'm still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but gotta grab my. My rifle. Still, to be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you. And then Lance replies, you aren't the one who did it, right? And Tyler says, I am. I'm sorry. Lance says, I thought they caught the person. And then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude and interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town Got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out. But there's one vehicle lingering. Lance says, why? And Tyler says, why did I do it? And Lance says, yeah. Tyler says, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything in the news about them finding it. We'll update you shortly. Or Charlie, we'll update you by midnight. And then Lance says, all right, stay safe. How long have you been planning this? And Tyler replies, a bit over a week, I believe so Lance's do you need it for hunting? And Tyler says, no, my dad wanted to use it to use a high caliber for the rifle hunt. Judging from today, I say, gramps gun does just fine. IDK, I think that was a 2A 2K scope. Lance says, Geez. And then Tyler says, OMW, home 3.5 hours. Lance says, drive safe. And then Tyler says, delete this exchange.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, what more can you tell us?

[Dave Mack]

You know, Nancy, during the course of the testimony today at the preliminary hearing, we got a sense of what was taking place on the campus after the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the surrounding area by the text messages being sent from Tyler Robinson to his lover roommate, Lance Twiggs. Lance Twiggs has been given immunity from prosecution. And we'll find out why later, I guess. But the one thing that you can take away from all of this is exactly what was happening in the search area as law enforcement was looking for the gun and what Tyler Robinson was doing as he watched it happen. The fact that Tyler Robinson told Lance Twigs by text that he had been planning it for over a week. A couple of things come out of that one. It appears that Lance Twiggs had no clue about what Robinson was planning to do and he was shocked by it. But part two is that when Lance Twiggs hears from Tyler Robinson the night of this assassination, he's admitting to doing it. Admitting to etching into the bullets. Okay, memes, what responsibility do we have to turn somebody in? I mean, isn't that your first phone call? 911, hey, I think my boyfriend roommate might have been the killer. I mean, wouldn't that be the first call you'd make? A quick word. Nancy, you have pointed this out many, many times on this show and others. Friends, whatever you put on the Internet, whatever you text, you can delete it all you want. It's not gone. That's why it's kind of amusing to me that Tyler Robinson would give a direction to Lance Twiggs, you know, to delete these messages like he's bragging all along how he committed the perfect crime. He can't be caught. The only thing is, maybe he's got fingerprints left on the gun, right? But delete the messages and that'll clear everything. Yeah, doesn't work like that.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nate Eaton]

Well, the first place I went was to the place where Charlie Kirk was actually shot, there in the amphitheater, outdoor area on the campus. It's a grassy area with different layers. People were sitting and standing in that location. There's also buildings surrounding it. So people were standing, watching Charlie speak when that gunshot rang out. And you can see it's at the bottom of a tiered layer. And directly in the line of sight of that amphitheater is the low C building where investigators say Tyler Robinson made his way onto the roof and took one shot directly at Charlie Kirk. And there is no obstruction there, Nancy, nothing at all. It is a direct sight, nothing in the way. And that clearly was disturbing for so many and a life changing day for so many there on the spot on the amphitheater where this horrible event happened. Now, this is a campus that was built on a hill, so it's layered. Not only is the amphitheater layered, but the buildings around the amphitheater are layered. So it's very easy to get onto the roof of these buildings. In fact, many of the buildings, the roofs are sidewalks. You're walking on the sidewalk, you go down some stairs and then you enter the building. And that's just how the campus is structured. So it's not like there's all these tall buildings that you're having to climb up or work your way around to get on top. That's not what you're looking at here. Second place I went. So I was there in the amphitheater. And then I went upstairs to the hall of Flags, which the officer testified the other day in court. That's where he was stationed when the gunshot happened. And he went running down the stairs. That's where he found the first gun holster, which apparently had nothing to do with this case. But he found it. And then he looked up, he saw the LOSI building and then he worked his way up there and Noticed what he called the sniper's den, where there was a disturbance in the gravel on the roof of that building. And he was able to see how someone from that position could shoot a gun and directly hit Charlie Kirk, who was in the amphitheater area.

[Nancy Grace]

Nate, you state that you went to a wooded area where you believe the gun and the gun towel was recovered. What did you learn?

[Nate Eaton]

Well, Nancy, I then worked my way over to the actual low C building. Now, I didn't think I'd be able to get anywhere near the roof, but what startled me most is that, as I mentioned, these buildings are in tiers. So at some portions, you're looking up maybe about 12, 15ft. But as you walk around the building, there's a stairwell you can take up, which is presumably the same stairwell that Tyler Robinson took. You take it up, and you're right there at the roof level. You don't have to really jump over anything other than a railing, which. And now they have put up a fence. They've put up a chain link fence. So it would be more challenging to get on that roof. But at the time, you could simply jump over a railing. You're on the roof, you do a few jumps from level to level, and you're there on the edge of the building. And then from there, we've seen the surveillance footage where after the shot was fired, apparently Robinson took off across the building. And then he jumped off about a 12 to 15 foot drop, still not very far. And that's when he worked his way into the wooded area. We have heard about the wooded area. I was picturing kind of a lush forest. That's how a lot of people have described it. That's not what it is. There's a lot of trees, and it's a graded area. It kind of goes up, so you could walk up a hill. You wouldn't need hiking shoes for this, though. I mean, it's dirt, it's grass, it's pine trees, it's other trees. And being that it was September, there likely would have been foliage on these trees versus the wintertime or spring where they wouldn't have bloomed. But there's kind of a row of trees separating the campus from other buildings, from other homes in the neighborhood that you could easily hide something or try to hide something, which is apparently what Robinson did, according to the police. And that is where they ended up finding the towel, and then they found the gun, both of which they said had the DNA on it.

[Nancy Grace]

Nate, how will what you learned be probative at trial? I mean, how can it be used by either the state or the defense?

[Nate Eaton]

Well, we can already see that the state has used the surveillance footage showing him on the buildings, going building to building. And the fact that they said they found those items in the woods, I think had his DNA not been on those items, it'd be much harder, and the defense would maybe try to poke holes in that. But the fact that his DNA was on it and that this surveillance video appeared to show him with a long item down his pants as he was limping to try to go over to the campus, I think all of that will line up. The key here, of course, is all of the footage that they have. The footage that they have, the fact that it's easy to climb on top of the building, the fact that the amphitheater was open, wide open, the fact that there's multiple other buildings where people could easily get on top of. I think all of that will come into play to show that this was an area that was not super hard to get to.

[Nancy Grace]

Nate Eaton, Eastside HO News. What's the takeaway from what you learned at the crime scene?

[Nate Eaton]

I think one of my takeaways, Nancy, is just how. Well, one, the area was, is far more compact than what I had seen on other videos on news clips. It seemed very wide and large and huge. This was a small area. I was able to walk that whole area in less than five minutes. I mean, it is. It is there. There's where Charlie was speaking. There's building. Building. The chick fil a that they say Tyler Robinson went into after he visited the campus in the morning. There's right there off to the side. And then there's the LOSI building, which is straight ahead. You could yell from where Charlie Kirk was standing. You could yell. And if someone was on the roof of the LOSI building, if you yelled really loud, they could probably hear you. I mean, it is that close. It's not like we're talking yards and yards and yards away. It is close. It's within distance of seeing someone. If you're looking, if you're noticing and definitely possibly hearing someone, I say that there is a water feature there, so that might muffle the sound. And if water was running that day, it could have caused some disturbances. Plus, if you're surrounded by people, you're not going to hear them. But ultimately, I think the big takeaway for me is the area was so compact. One thing I do want to say about being in the courtroom, Nancy, is that Erica Kirk and Charlie Kirk's parents seem to be consoling each other in a way. I noticed Erica Kirk putting her head on Charlie's mother's shoulder. It appeared at times that they were possibly praying as their eyes were closed and they were looking down. I noticed during the break as they left that there was tissue that had left on their package of tissues that they had left on their bench, water bottles in there in case they get thirsty. And then at the end of the day, they stood up and embraced for some time. I'm not talking five seconds. I'm talking 30 seconds to a minute. Erica Kirk and Charlie's mother and Erica's friends who were with her, noticeably crying. Erica noticeably upset. This is when they were talking about. The defense was arguing about certain evidence being admitted and the prosecution saying, we need to admit it. And they clearly are paying attention to this. Erica seems very invested in this, even looking directly at the witnesses. It's not like she's distracted at all. And that has been kind of the key takeaway for me in the courtroom as two rows behind her, we have Tyler Robinson's parents sitting on the opposite end of the bench. And they obviously are in a completely different frame of mind because their son is on trial for this horrible, horrific crime. And he sits there smiling a little bit. I noticed before the proceedings, he's talking with the attorneys during the breaks, he's talking with the investigator, kind of not really joking, but smiling, laughing a little bit. At one point, he did look over to me because I was maybe 3, 4ft away from him in the media box. We're right there. He did look over to me and give me kind of a friendly smile. But he has handcuffs on that are chained to his waistband. And then he has shackles on his feet. So he's not getting anywhere. And he's been dressed up every day in a suit and a tie and a dress shirt and dress shoes. And then at the end of the court hearing, they asked him to stand up and walk out. And at that moment, I did not see if he made any contact with his family who was on the back row. But it's been interesting to see him there. He had a notebook in front of him. I didn't see him take one note. He did have a red pen that was handy with him. But he also, I mentioned Erica Kirk is paying close attention to the proceedings. Tyler Robinson is paying close attention to the proceedings.

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Dave Mack]

Nancy, you know Lance Twigg has been identified by many as Tyler Robinson's roommate. And something more. Well, we already knew he was given immunity from prosecution to provide testimony. Now the the judge allowed in police surveillance video of his interview with cops when he was shown pictures of the alleged assassin of Charlie Kirk. And Lance Twigg says, yep, looks like Tyler Robinson to me. Identification in court today that Tyler Robinson appears to be the alleged assassin of Charlie Kirk. Also, Nancy, Charlie Kirk's widow Erica and his parents and they filed court papers this morning saying that the judge is preventing them from seeing all the evidence. Utah law provides for family members to not only be in court during test during trial testimony during a court hearing like this, but it also allows for them to witness evidence in a meaningful way. And Erica Kirk and Charlie's parents say they're being prevented from that, saying there's hidden evidence and they want to see it. So that paperwork has been filed with. We'll find out what happens in the coming days.

[Nancy Grace]

Tonight, wild conspiracy theories are abounding. What do we know? Well, take a listen to this.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

The theory that Charlie Kirk was killed by an explosive placed in his wireless mic is growing in popularity. And when you look at the reenactments done online side by side, you can't help but notice the the way that the shirt moves, the way that the necklace moves and the way that the body moves are so similar.

[Nancy Grace]

What is she saying? That's from WFF news @TikTok. I need to hear that again.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

The theory that Charlie Kirk was killed by an explosive placed in his wireless mic is growing in popularity. And when you look at the reenactments done online side by side, you can't help but notice the way that the shirt moves, the way that the necklace move and the way that the body moves are so similar.

[Nancy Grace]

Joe Scott, an online reenactment, is that real?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Well, Nancy, you know, this is the thing about it. I think a lot of people are getting this from if you remember a couple of years ago from the Israelis using explosive inside of pagers and they went after individuals and they're extrapolating from that, trying to make this like that. If you watch any of those videos with the exploding pagers, there's a tremendous amount of damage that is done where you actually have kind of a blast radius and you see things that are like. I remember one where the guy's like in the vegetable aisle at the store and there are vegetables that are destroyed, that sort of thing. These, these pagers blow apart.

[Lance Twiggs]

The.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That's not what we're seeing in this clip with Charlie. And just let me explain something very, very quickly. When his shirt balloons out, that's what's referred to as a transfer of kinetic energy. It's almost akin to taking a rock and imagine the most beautiful placid pool you've ever seen in your life and just chunking the rock right in the middle of it. What happens? Well, that energy from that rock striking that placid surface sends out waves. It's the same thing. That's why the, that's why the shirt balloons out. That's why you might see a necklace move. You're talking about a high velocity rifle round, which by the way, strikes him in the neck to the left of the midline, creates a tiny defect. You can see blood at one point in time begin to pour out. This is not an explosive event. Explosions have a very distinctive nature to them. We're talking about where things are actually blown apart. You're going to have shrapnel, you're going to have secondary damage relative to other items that are surrounding that area. That dog don't hunt. I'm sorry.

[Nancy Grace]

To Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Why are people obsessed with these conspiracy theories?

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

So people become obsessed with conspiracy theories for a number of reasons. One of the, the in this situation, because it's Charlie Kirk and he was such a polarizing figure. People who feel socially or politically disempowered tend to latch onto conspiracy theories because they distrust institutions and experts. So that's kind of one of the most direct in this case that I believe makes people so obsessed with conspiracy theories. But generally speaking, we become obsessed with them because when something happens that's so horrifying, and this is horrifying no matter how you feel about somebody like Charlie Kirk. A young man, a father, a husband, was killed in broad daylight, out in the open, where there were thousands of people there watching. And this makes us have a sense of terror, a sense of fear, because if it can happen to Charlie Kirk, it can happen to anyone. So believing the conspiracy theories that there was some special conspiracy against Charlie Kirk, it gives us the security to know that we wouldn't be targets. In the same way, we feel a little Bit safer. It gives us some control and a little bit of control over the narrative as well.

[Nancy Grace]

To Philip Dubay, dare I ask it weigh in?

[Philip Dube]

I would love this tiktoker on my jury, frankly, because in a case like this, where the evidence is seemingly rock solid, you need to fracture that jury with such great differences of opinion that they'll never garner unanimity. Now, as a practical matter, the prosecution is going to hammer this idea that the medical examiner recovered a bullet fragment from Charlie Kirk's body. So unless you have evidence that that bullet fragment was in fact a microphone fragment, I think she needs to shut the hell up.

[Nancy Grace]

One conspiracy beyond the pale claiming that Charlie Kirk is actually alive.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

What if Charlie Kirk is still alive? If he was in grave danger and someone was threatening his life and it was. It was bad and the idea came up to fake the assassination and put him in witness protection, you really wouldn't have to convince his friends and family. Most of them would say, absolutely, let's do this to protect him. Now, nobody's crying. Erica throws a few tears here and there, but it would make sense with how they're acting.

[Nancy Grace]

That from Safe Haven baby boxes on TikTok. Okay, Jessica Morgan, to further that conspiracy, you would have to have the entire medical examiner's office in on it. You would have to have the funeral home. Let's see the footage of Erica Kirk kissing her dead husband's hand. You'd have to have the funeral home in on it. Everybody that works at the funeral home. Is that even feasible, Joe Scott Morgan, that the medical examiner would take part in a wild conspiracy, faking his autopsy, submitting official autopsy reports, even taking the thing to a hearing? What about it, Joe Scott?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Give me a break, Nancy. What are you talking about? You're talking about the faking of his death. This is so incredibly absurd. Because you mentioned the medical examiner staff. Yeah, they would have to be on board. And it's not just the medical examiner staff. Utah has a state medical examiner. So you're telling me these people are saying, okay, the chief medical examiner for the state of Utah, who is, by the way, a board certified forensic pathologist, and all of his staff are going to be coming in and involving themselves in a conspiracy at the risk of their careers and their good name. Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention the ambulance crew, all of the police officers that were involved in this. Oh, what else happened? Charlie went to the hospital, didn't he? So you're going to have a board certified surgeon that's going to stick his neck out how much money are they paying him in order to do this? What you're saying is, are they threatening his life? If you don't do this, we're going to take you out. You have to sign on the dotted line that you treated this man. It just does not make sense whatsoever. Not to mention emergency room techs. We've got emergency room nurses, we've got surgical techs, surgical nurses. All of these people are in on this. This is just the height of lunacy.

[Nancy Grace]

Philip Dube. The magnitude required of a conspiracy theory like that to cover up the fact that Kirk's actually alive is insane. But if you put that to a jury and you got one wingnut girar to buy into it, what do you think?

[Philip Dube]

Well, remember, I only need one from a defense standpoint to either hang it or to just cause a retrial and a mistrial. So if I can get that type of conspiracy theorist nut on the jury, that is a victory for the client. Now the practical reality of it is it's going to be hard to juxtapose that against the well attended funeral that they had for Charlie Kirk. And how they would explain his corpse in a casket would defy common sense and defy logic. So I think that even though it may initially fracture a jury, I could see the rest of the jury talking her out of that theory. And in the end it could backfire on the defense because it would alienate the jury. And from a defense standpoint, you want to maintain some degree of integrity and credibility because remember, it's a death case. If you lose in the guilt phase, they can hold these shenanigans against the defense during the penalty phase and render a death verdict verdict. So it's dangerous.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Sherry Schwartz joining us, forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation and author. Dr. Sherry do these people have any idea the suffering they are causing Kirk's family by these far fetched theories like he's still alive?

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

The truth is that when people are engaging in this type of talk, it's very easy because Charlie Kirk isn't in front of them and ERICA Kirk and Mr. Kirk's parents not in front of them. And so what happens is it's easy to dehumanize them and forget that they're a factor in this. And when we start dehumanizing people, we don't realize the impact that it has. The fact of the matter is Erica Kirk is a young widow whose husband was killed very publicly. Same for his parents. They are now without their son and they can can never get him back and he was taken in this brutally horrible way. And really I wish the tiktokers and everybody else would stop to think about if they were in that situation, if it was their family member, how they might feel about everybody saying oh, he's alive and well somewhere. But you all just don't know it. It's really hurtful and it's very damaging to the victims.

[Nancy Grace]

Another favorite conspiracy theory out there is that the current Kirk murder was ordered by the US Government to distract from the Epstein files.

[Dave Mack]

We as the American people deserve to have every Epstein file released with no redactions whatsoever.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Period.

[Dave Mack]

And so yesterday I don't want to comment because a lot of these people are my friends. But they got to make it right. And we the American people ran on transparency. We deserve to see the entire client list, every document the government has regarding the Epstein files.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

We the American people should have on

[Dave Mack]

an easy to access website immediately in

[Nate Eaton]

a very, very quick fashion.

[Dave Mack]

I'm pushing for that both privately and publicly.

[Nancy Grace]

Just so you know, is it safe to come out? Because I've been arguing that the Epstein files should be made public. The entire files from day one. Insane. Ridiculous. To somehow rope in the Epstein files into this brutal murder. Just got Morgan jump in.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

How many other people have actually made this statement as well? Just in my friend group alone, everyone has wanted to do it. I've commented on the Epstein files. Bring them on. I want them to release the list. Does that mean that I'm a target? How about everybody else? Every other high profile person? Why is it that they would single out Charlie Kirk for this? And don't come at me with this nonsense of. Well, you don't understand what an impact he had. There's a lot of people that have impact out there that are saying the same thing. So is this a motivation for him being taken out? No, I don't think that it is at all. I think that there are a lot of people clamoring for this information. There's a lot of information that should be made public. It doesn't necessarily mean that he's a target of an assassination simply based upon that.

[Nancy Grace]

What do you make of that one, Dr. Sherry?

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

I think it's so important to consider sources when we are hearing these things. Such as the Epstein files are part of the reason that Charlie Kirk was brutally murdered in broad daylight. Demand evidence and think critically. This is what I tell my college students. There is absolutely no evidence that I've seen that there's any relation between Charlie Kirk and the release of the Epstein files. And why would somebody need to murder Charlie Kirk over these files? That these two events are completely unrelated. And again, this goes back to how hurtful it is to the family. They're also victims of this crime.

[Philip Dube]

They're.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

They're co victims is what we call them. And they have to listen to this and manage this every single day. But when you're engaging in that kind of talk, you are. You're just latching on to things that make no sense.

[Nancy Grace]

What about it, Philip Dube, that the murder was ordered by the US Government? Is there a way to actually get government conspiracy theorists on your jury? Is that what the defense is going to do?

[Philip Dube]

Of course. And the first thing that I would do is I would want to know the occupation of the Veneerman. I would want those DMV workers. I would want people who work at the counter for Social Security and Medicare and the Registrar of Voters and maybe even who handle the administrative claims for the large HMO organizations because there's such tremendous distrust in management. They have seen firsthand how people get railroaded, blamed, and thrown under the bus. So I could actually envision one or two jurors in those professional capacities wondering the same thing and perhaps having reasonable doubt.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

I think she works for the oppressing class and that she was hired to be Charlie Kirk's handler because Charlie Kirk was such an influential part of, of the Christian movement through Turning Point usa. I think that the oppressors that Erica

[Nancy Grace]

was working for really wanted to use

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Turning Point USA to try to sway

[Dave Mack]

the younger generation and manipulate them and

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

control a narrative around Christianity, because that's what they do.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, I'm not quite sure what that is. Even claiming something about Erica Kirk being an elite fixer. What is she saying? Dr. Sherry, what do you make of the continued attacks on Erica Kirk?

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Yes, I've even heard some of the conspiracy theories about that. Maybe she had some role in his death so that she could take over. What's shocking and really deeply troubling to me as a psychologist is how much vitriol this poor woman, Erica Kirk, has been subject to since her husband was brutally murdered. She's a young widow. She's a mom. She is an American who's trying to live her life every day and manage this horrible tragedy and having to live it out in the public square and the hatred from high level people, from some people that I would classify as respected podcasters that have some air of authority about knowledge about things, that really don't have any kind words for her. And I really don't Understand that. And I think that they especially have a responsibility to set the tone and the pace and accept that this is somebody who's grieving and she's entitled to that grief. And you don't have to like her, but you don't have to attack her.

[Nancy Grace]

The attacks on Erica Kirk keep coming.

[Dave Mack]

Listen, Erica Kirk keeps getting weirder and weirder. That's an M and a G. That's not her initials, and that's not Charlie Kirk's initials. Look at how she doesn't have any smearing of, of her mascara. Pretty sure TPUSA just got millions and millions of dollars, but she needed to put out this fundraiser right after his memorial.

[Nate Eaton]

Doesn't that seem a little bit suspicious?

[Dave Mack]

I believe they're all just running cover for what they're doing right here. It's very easy to put on some prosthetic, and then right when you're supposed to queue it up, look, there's no, no blood on the ground. It would just be spewing everywhere. It seems like a much simpler explanation that they could have just put a little patch right here and made it go, which is exactly what it looked like.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, that's modern shaman media. It's amazing to me, to Jo Scott Morgan, that so many people are focusing on attacking Erica Kirk instead of focusing on the fact that Charlie Kirk was gunned down in broad daylight sitting on a stage. It's like everyone's doing backflips to prove somehow that Tyler Robinson didn't do it.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I don't. I. It's hard for me to fathom how anyone could fake this event. I've heard all kinds of things, including that this was some kind of digital image that everybody was subjected to and that the whole event was a complete digital hallucination. I guess that we've all bought into, that it didn't actually happen that there were some kind of special cameras or mirrors that were around, you know, almost like it's some kind of sideshow Las Vegas magic trick that this did not happen. This is not David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear. This is a man that was a victim of a firearms related homicide. It is that simple. This is a murder investigation and it has been worked as such. And right now we're finding out more and more about it that will go to disprove a lot of this nonsense that's being spewed out there.

[Nancy Grace]

What about it, Dube?

[Philip Dube]

I think this conspiracy theorist idea would make perfect sense if this were a civil wrongful death trial, because in that context, it would be based on a theory of negligence where the venue is on notice that dangerous third parties could be coming inside the venue and they don't take enough precautions to prevent this type of foreseeable harm. But that's not the posture we're in. We're not in a situation where the university or the venue is getting sued for not having proper security and therefore they should be held liable. This is a criminal trial where criminal liability personally attaches to Tyler Roger Robinson if he was in fact the gunman. So I think that his point may be well taken in a civil form, but not in a criminal 1.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Sherry Schwartz, weigh in.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Well, this, this goes to buying into conspiracy theories because you feel politically and socially disempowered, disenfranchised, so you don't trust institutions. These are the people who are, are going to latch on to this idea that Tyler Robinson didn't do it. And, and I'll, I'll tell him myself a little bit. I, not that I ever thought he didn't do it, but I didn't really pay super close attention to this. And I also, just based on headlines, this is why it's so important to go deeper than that and do your own research. I actually had a sense that, oh, the, the prosecutor is being censured for something. I saw some headline about that. Well, maybe they did get the wrong guy. And then in preparing for this, I read a little bit deeper. I mean, his DNA is on a towel. His roommate boyfriend's DNA is on a towel. There's other things. He left a note. So when you do a little bit deeper level of research, you recognize that they probably do have the right guy. His own father turned him in or facilitated him turning himself in. These are all very big pieces of credible evidence that they have the right guy.

[Nancy Grace]

Yet another conspiracy theory I think is

[Dave Mack]

a psyop, just like him getting shot in Charlie Kirk thing. I can't even go to a baseball game and bring in a can of

[Nate Eaton]

Diet Coke to a baseball game or a concert without a metal detector or

[Dave Mack]

the Mendy in my pockets.

[Nancy Grace]

That doesn't even apply here. No one was going in a stadium. It was an open area venue. There is not a metal detector that can be used for a giant field of people. Agree or disagree.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

We have a quad at my university. I'm a college professor. We have events out on the quad all the time. It's immediately adjacent to my office. As a matter of fact, I can stand at my office window and look out over it. I've never Seen a metal detector out there. And, you know, the fact is it's a space for free speech. And Charlie Kirk, you know, God rest his soul, and I understand that he is high profile. He ain't the President of the United States. All right, that. That's. That's not. That's not part and parcel of this. Now, was it. Was. Was there a lack of attention to security? Yeah, probably. And I'm by no means a security expert. If it had been me, I probably would have had people watching the rooftops, particularly if there were any suspected threats against him. I would have had more people deployed out there just handling it. The local constabularies, not just the campus police. You would bring in some of your law enforcement partners, but. Yeah. Do I think that there was. What's the term they use now? Intentionality? Is that that term that they use? I hate that word, but let's just use it right now and just say that there was intentionality on the part of these individuals to deprive Charlie of security. Therefore, if that's what is being suggested, all of their fingers are on the proverbial trigger here. They're all part and parcel and party to a homicide that has been committed. Ain't buying it.

[Nancy Grace]

The testimony in the hearing has opened up a whole nother arterial flood of conspiracy theories regarding the bullet.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

When a weapon is cleared, an officer would make his rifle ready, which would chamber around.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, I got you.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

My understanding was that that's how that was accounted for.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

So an officer claimed that bullet belonged to him or her.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That's my recollection, is that that was how it was accounted for.

[Lance Twiggs]

And when.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

When was that accounted for?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I don't know specifically.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Do you remember what type of bullet that was?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I don't.

[Nancy Grace]

Was it a.30 06?

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Do you remember?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I don't.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Okay. Do you know where that bullet is now?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I don't.

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

There you see David. Agent David Hull on the stand. The defense attorney is leading him down the garden path, and she's setting up a claim that the bullet did not come from Tyler Robinson's weapon. Significance. That opens up a line of questioning as to the real killer. Now, Joe Scott Morgan, we know that the fragment that was recovered is. How can I say. Deformed. It is destroyed. It's a fragment of a bullet. Just enough left to see the circumference at the bottom to prove it's from a.30 06. But whether it came from that gun cannot be proven by the striations, the markings on the bullet. They're Going to have a field day.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Bullets are deformed all of the time. That's the nature of bullets. They are lead core projectiles that are encased in a copper jacket. Those are soft metals. Guess what happens when they strike a surface. They fragment, they wind up deformed, they particulate. Okay. That's one of the purposes for a projectile. Why do they do that? Well, they do it in order to destroy as much tissue as they possibly can. And guess what, with this 30:06 round that was fired at Charlie Kirk, it was highly effective. It did its job. It's a man killer. Well, you can't ask them now, but our troops In World War I killed thousands of people with these rounds. It was specifically made for that. This is the round that they carried in the 1903 is what it was referred to, Bolt action rifle. That's what our troops carry. They still used it. Snipers. Our snipers still used it in World War II. It's a highly effective round. Grandpa and great grandpa used it to hunt deer with. Why do they use it? Well, because it's highly effective. And yes, rounds do in fact fragment. Now, is it being suggested that this poor cameraman is out there? What does he have? Was he supplied with this by some kind of unknown foreign agency? He's got a weapon hidden inside of his camera. And let me guess, the buttons on the camera that actuates the firing pin in there and the round, what travels out of where the lens is supposed to be. And he was just positioned just right to strike Charlie in the neck. Let me tell you what's going to happen that people are not aware of or maybe they're just kind of ignoring right now. That view that we have of Charlie, that static view that we have where he is seated, that ain't the only view there is. That's not the only videography that he exist. It's from all points of the compass. What are you going to suggest then again, another mass hallucination, that everybody's phones were impacted and their cameras were compromised. Is that the road that we're going to go down? Well, best of luck with that because it is just not going to match up with what is going to be described in court when this case does in fact go to trial.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about the shooting of Charlie Kirk, dial toll free 800-225-5324. We remember American hero Special Agent Aaron Garcia, Union Pacific Rail pd Killed in the line of duty after just two years, leaving behind a grieving wife, Juana and sons Aaron and Andrew sentenced to life without dad. American Hero Special Agent Aaron Garcia. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night, friend. You want to advance your education, but not on a traditional path. At Rasmussen University you'll find flexible and engaging online experiences, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support and so much more. You may also qualify for a brand new laptop when you enroll in select online or on campus programs. Enroll in a fully online program or at one of their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit Rasmussen. Edu.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

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[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

A burst pipe, A dead water heater,

[Nancy Grace]

the AC calling it quits?

[Dave Mack]

Who do you call?

[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

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[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

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[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Dr. Sherry Schwartz]

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[Nancy Grace]

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